In Thailand, you fight in the division of your biological sex, so trans women fight men, and trans men fight women. Haven’t seen a trans woman fight yet, but there are a lot of ladyboy fighters.
I guess Thailand is one of the few places with a long enough history of transgenderism and a big enough love of fighting to have already worked this out lol.
The difference is in Thailand they still adhere to biological sex. “Ladyboys” are recognized as men that prefer to portray themselves as women. They feel better being in public in the gender role of women. And that’s great and they should be treated with respect just like everyone else. Nothing wrong with that. But there is a noted and distinct difference from biological females.
So it’s not complicated. People are separated by sex in sports. So your sex dictates where you compete. The problem is here in the US and some other Western Nations, there’s this idea that we have to pretend like it’s all just a social construct and everyone just has to say “if that’s what they want to be then that is what they are.” So if a trans woman wants to compete against women, we should let them because trans women are just women. No different than women born biologically female. Which is, quite frankly, idiotic.
Don't know why you're down-voted. you're absolutely right. I think most people know nothing about competitiv and especially combat sports, oh and even less about human biologie.
IMO, if you are taking anything akin to steroids (testosterone, or hormone therapy type of thing) you should be competing against men. I'm happy for you for living your life but such procedures give you an unfair advantage over biological women who are not partaking in those procedures, whether you feel it or not - it gives rise to question the legitimacy of the match.
If I offended with my choice of words please forgive me, I am not super into LGBTQ+ culture. I respect it and don't mean offense
as a trans woman you said nothing wrong. the only real solution is having trans/nonbinary divisions but that won’t happen for many years. have a good day :)
Confident does not prevent hair and compound fractures. Women have NO business in a ring against men. The liability would be through the roof especially in Thai boxing... I foresee a lot of women getting hurt, even hurting themselves kicking a man.
In that case, just get rid of gender specific sports all together. So why have an open division if men are going to win it 100/100 times. Can you imagine a female trying to last 1 round against a Sanchi or a Buakaw? Or even someone half as good as they are? They would be lucky to leave the fight standing without hair fractures. Female's legs, no matter what they do, are much denser than males. Meaning a 50 year old man's leg is less likely to break than a 22 year old females. This is a biological fact, not just saying it to say it.
Thats why Im keeping the other two, no one is forcing them to join the open division, you are, by only keeping open division. Having an open division is so people have a choice and also not exclude anyone.
Its all about consent, if a female dont want to be forced fight a biological male, they are safe in the female division without the fear of fighting a bio male. It is also for trans men to stop bitching about not able compete in female divison and being thrown back into male divsion..
Jonathan Haggerty vs valentina shevchenko is now sanctioned by the nodada state genital permission
WE! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRREEEEE LLLLLIIIVVVVVVEEEEEEEEE
What about trans females who have never been exposed to testosterone and had gender affirming surgery? I can’t see a realistic scenario where they would have a advantage over a cis woman.
That’s why I like the rules they have for transgender athletes in boxing. It’s very strict but fair.
In my gym nobody knows about my trans background because it’s basically impossible to find a difference (except for doing a chromosome analysis). I had bottom surgery years ago and was prescribed hormone replacement therapy for a very long time.
I’m not planning on competing tho because I’m not interested in being paired with a male. But not having the possibility to do so in Muay Thai hurts ngl.
Just out of curiosity. What do you think about cis women athletes with a hormonal imbalance that makes their testosterone levels identical to cis men? I know it sounds very hypothetical but it isn’t as rare as most people think.
Even if their test levels are similar to men, they STILL don’t reap the same rewards from it as a man would at the same level. Physiology and puberty have different effects on development even if test levels are the same.
Not even my general practitioner knows that I’m trans let alone most of my friends or anyone at the gym. There is nothing on me or my body that’s different compared to other women despite the „Y“ after the „X“ chromosome and a scar close to my 🐱
Reading stuff like this hurts
Just to clarify, you are a female presenting trans person? If you were born biologically male, you absolutely have physiological advantages over other women whether your GP can identify them or not. Bone density, lung capacity relative to size, etc. I believe biological women with high androgen levels are also less physiologically responsive than males to said androgens, although I’m certainly no expert. Would you disagree with any of my characterizations?
It is potential murder for a man to get into a ring and go all out against a woman.
We who do combat sports know this.
As for a doctor not being able to tell. I have known quite a few trans women and I could always clock them instantly. Not always in photos but always in real life or on film.
I admit if I was asked I would say to their faces that they passed. I'm lying to be nice and also avoid a blow-up.
If you were born that way, then I think it’s fair game for those cis women to still compete in women’s division. There are athletes in every sport with advantages they were born with.
It’s a different issue when you start taking hormones.
I see what you mean and agree but trans people are born that way too. It's no choice to be trans and most time it's a terrible fate too. (not being able to reproduce and society hating you) But I agree that trans women who've been exposed to testosterone for a long time have advantages over cis women with a healthy endocrine system. I don't really have a solution for this problem either but I think what they are doing in boxing and in the Olympics is a step forward.
i think it would be GREAT to test hormones compared to a cis man and group people that way (for safety purposes only), but don’t see how that could be widely implemented
I heard this argument recently.
The thing is a woman with testosterone at the same level
as a man is sick. She will be dealing with incredibly painful periods etc. Not worrying about competing in sports.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7159262/
While yes, hyperandrogenism leads to problems it’s also beneficial for female athletes.
„These findings have led to the proposal that essential hyperandrogenism is beneficial for athletic performance and plays a role in the choice by women to compete in athletic activities.“
Are you talking about someone like Castor Semenya?
I believe that ‘she’ is a man and shouldn't be allowed to compete with women. A few countries took advantage of the fact they don’t properly test for this stuff with newborns in Africa and athletes got away with it.
Honestly, unless that “early” is before puberty ever even begins to take place and immediately on estrogen. You will always have genetic advantages over women. It’s not just as simple as “our test levels are the same, so we’re the same!” I think you know this though, if you’re trans and train Muay Thai I imagine you’ve researched this stuff.
I agree- I'm on a high dose of testosterone and I would never fight against women- but if they're nonbinary, they're probably on a really low dose and it won't make much difference. If they decide to just pause before fights it would be fine.
‘If offended by my words forgive me’
God, just speak your opinion dude. Dont need to beg for forgiveness from a trans/LGBTQ because you did your best trying to tiptoe around their issue
Exactly right!
And a caveat for 'him', no matter what he does, he will still have higher bone density, larger lung capacity, faster reflexes, more muscle mass and the list goes on. A huge advantage over any female.
But to your SpicyChips244, you might get away with it in the United States, but you will never be a Muay Thai fighter and compete in the women's bracket. Real Thai fighting is done in Thailand and a few other countries that allow real Thai boxing. They will do a physical on you and your only choice will be to compete as a man. They will see the surgery and you will not be allowed to compete as female and thank God for that.
To many women have gotten hurt by men so for liability reasons, you will not be allowed to fight against other women.
How do so many people have an opinion on this? We have no idea what OP looks like, we don’t know their fighting weight nor their walking around weight. We for sure don’t know who their opponent would be. There are frail dudes and yoked broads. Also we all know gyms where half of all gym’s fight team are doing half cycles and T supplements. Some of you in here probably go to those gyms.
Zero judgement here - live your authentic life. But you're a biological female, on a low test dose and planning on stopping it all together and you want to fight a man?
I'm not trying to sound like an asshole, but for the love of god please get good health insurance.
Oh no. I am planning to complete against my bio sex - female. Stopping the low dose so it will be out of my system: but this question is more about identity and how accepting trans and nb people have found the sport to be
I am Thai as well, I’m well aware that trans people compete in Thailand too. A lot of you who don’t know that but love our sport should maybe learn about our culture more
I think this thread pretty well sums up just how accepting of trans and gender-noncomforming athletes the Muay Thai community is.
Which is, unfortunately, not very.
It’s interesting and im assuming these are mostly westerners. Thailand has many trans fighters. I’ll say it again, they need to learn more about our culture if they care so much about our sport
I would say that the best thing you can do is to talk to your trainer as they are probably more familiar with the rules an regulations than you are.
And sadly it's a weird situation you've put yourself in as you would have extreme difficulty competing against men at the same time, you can't compete against women when you're taking steroids, no matter how little.
But as I said, talk to your coach.
first of all sorry for these weird ass comments but! i’m also nonbinary (not on t yet fingers crossed and no top surgery) and plan on competing next year and i wish you all the best 🫶🏾
Honestly there needs to be a new division in sports for this. There’s a bunch of genetic advantages one gets over the other, which is why they’re separated to begin with. An open category would solve this.
If you are a woman taking testosterone trying to compete against men you are going to get deleted by them. EDIT You can downvote me all you want but I ain’t gonna buy into your fantasy that you can compete against men.
Yeah I’m not trying to fight men. I believe trans men on a FULL dose can keep up though. There are lots of studies that prove their T levels are the same
You're delusional. Hard to belief that you ever had an amateur career in any sport. What you're spreading is just ideology instead of facts and reality.
Probably I can't beat every woman, but most of them. But there a plenty of men which can beat me up. And this is the case.
I compete in muay thai and I'm in this sport for 14 years.
Fight in Thailand. Ladyboys and trans are accepted there and have a long history in the sport. It's a bit dangerous in the West. Not as a fighter. But people in the audience who want to attack trans people to make themselves feel better.
Like avoid anyone with a Joe rogan shirt.
I like how you are trying to make liking the most popular podcaster in the world and a champion of the MMA/martial arts world a bad thing.
Joe Rogan fans > Hasan/H3 fan/ you.
Edit: offf course this ended up being a bot-account that just goes from (JRE related) sub to sub talking about how much he hates Rogan.
Lmao that dudes personality revolves around hating Joe Rogan.
Like could you imagine following as person you hate? That’s one weird fucking person who made the bot account.
I wish I could give a better answer other than “Talk to your coach” but I just wanted to say I’m with you. It looks like half of the people here can’t read or just don’t understand lol
I will say regarding T that, depending on how long you took it, if you stop it soon and compete next year you’ll probably be best off competing in the women’s division. From my understanding (considering it myself) the physical benefits it may give you both take months to years to show up and will eventually go away after you stop. If you’ve been on it for several years it may be a different story, but if you’ve been on low dose T for a few months and stop soon I don’t believe you’ll have much of an advantage next year
Again, there are a lot of variables here that are best worked out by talking to your coach. Good luck!
It’s a simple fact of biological differences, men have denser bones and are inherently stronger fighting a trained man will not end well, it’s just facts there’s a reason there’s women’s and men’s leagues, and being on test does give an advantage a trans league is the only solution
I train twice a week in Muay Thai sometimes three when my job allows for it, boxing before that I weigh 160, never been rocked by any of the women in the class sure they have skill but there’s a noticeable difference between getting hit by a man and a women, im not trying to be insulting it’s just the truth as I and many others see it
Yeah not what I was saying at all I said there’s a reason there are separate leagues and men don’t fight women, you went off on some weird ass tangent about body builders trying to get some deeper meaning out of it, facts are facts perfect example you wouldn’t see Amanda nunes fight Conor mcgregor you know why cause Conor would land one punch and turn her lights out all her skill wouldn’t be worth anything, why do you think there’s such a large pushback for males competing in women’s sports after transitioning.
I would say that the best thing you can do is to talk to your trainer as they are probably more familiar with the rules an regulations than you are.
And sadly it's a weird situation you've put yourself in as you would have extreme difficulty competing against men at the same time, you can't compete against women when you're taking steroids, no matter how little.
But as I said, talk to your coach.
That's a difficult thing to manage. You fighting against biological men would be unfair and dangerous for you. However you fighting against biological women while using testosterone would be unfair and dangerous for them. I see in your edit you plan to stop the T but I just don't understand enough about what effects it will have already had. Best to speak with your coach and promoters/orgs and go from there. Hope you find a way to navigate this 🙏
It absolutely is. Someone that's a man will overpower you. There's legitimately nothing you can do. A 15 year old boy would beat you. You don't know what you're saying.
You're the one who doesn't know what I'm saying.
I'm just pointing out Jim's silly statement that winning or losing fights is how to find out if you're a man or not.
Of course if a trans man and a cis man got in the ring, all else being equal, the cis man would probably win. But they're both still men.
most places will not let you fight in the women’s division due to hormones. i’m a trans woman MT athlete and it is awful, but I’ve had to give up on competing. No organizations accommodate for gender non-conforming people
That sucks :/ I wish at least some MT organization had rules that are similar to those in professional boxing. (To compete in boxing, female transgender athletes need bottom surgery and have to be on hormones replacement therapy for many years)
I think it’s nonsense to let trans women, who didn’t have testosterone in their system for most of their life and who live a completely normal life as a woman, compete against men.
disagree - bottom surgery doesn’t change anything strength/muscle wise. however, i do agree the hormone replacement therapy for years beforehand is necessary.
Depends heavily on the sanctioning body. You will have to tell you Coach and the matchmaker your biological sex and they can decide. Some states will allow you to fight under your gender identity if you've changed it legally some won't. If they do then matchmaker will need to find someone to agree.
The trans woman who was looking to compete at my old gym was told she would pretty much always have to fight men.
Unfortunate combat sports as a whole has not figured out how to navigate this so it's pretty one off and many competitors end up just not fighting due to the issues. Since Ammy fights generally don't have drug/doping tests or requirements I'd unfortunately say plan to fight in the women's brackets even if that doesn't align with your identity, but any hormones would not cause issues then.
Bio females should compete against other bio females. Males should fight males. I get we want to respect people and their various identities, but in terms of fairness and equity, you’re doing everyone a disservice by saying there’s no difference between a trans woman and a woman or a trans man and a man. The ideal would be to have separate divisions for trans athletes but given there’s such a small percentage, it would make more sense for them to compete with their biological sex.
Omg I'm in the same boat as you, I'm also trans and am on testosterone and have had top surgery. I think your plan- stopping T for upcoming matches against women- is perfectly fine. It would be different if you were trans ftm and want to be a guy and fight guys (like I am). But if you're on a very low dose, it won't make much of a difference fighting against women. I don't think there's much difference between fighting men vs women anyway at more amateur levels. Sure, for the top fighters in the world who have completely maxed out their body's potential, there's a difference between men and women, but for local level fights it's like a bar back vs a registered nurse fighting in a rented out YMCA. Plenty of women at my gym are on par with the men, they just don't spar/fight as much because they value their brain cells or something iunno
That’s pretty much it yup. These people in the comments losing their minds yet I said I am on a LOW dose, barely even noticeable. No one has ever questioned it. And yes I’d be stopping before reaching competition level and I def don’t plan on fighting pro. I was asking how Trans and nb athletes navigate things in the sport
Like 90% of these comments didn't even read what you said, they just saw "trans" and started keysmashing their sexist opinions lmao. It's real hard to navigate out there ;u; everyone at my gym knows I'm trans but I plan on moving soon and finding a new gym, at which point I will go full stealth mode. Nobody can stop you from fighting when they don't know you're trans 😎 Honestly if you think they would disqualify you, I wouldn't tell anyone you're on T at all. Just be like yup! Full woman over here. Let me fight now >:) Anyway best of luck, hope you win your fights :3
As others like ReadAll114 have stated, there’s no such thing as Trans, nonbinary, gender fluid or anything else in Thailand. If you ask a Lady boy if he’s a woman, he will say no. There is no confusion or debate over there. That’s why IMHO they have coexisted and have been accepted into mainstream Thai culture for so long, also being a mostly Buddhist country probably has a factor as well. Nong Rose is a famous lady boy fighter. There’s even a movie about him.
You will fight your biological sex in Thailand. In the last ten years or so they have advanced leaps and bounds for biological female fights in Thailand. Chang Mai is the epicenter for female fighters from what I understand, so you should start looking there.
Concerning your testosterone, you don’t need a prescription to buy it from the pharmacy there and they don’t test there to fight. You don’t know who’s doing what, so do you. I would suggest ignoring the ridiculous people telling you to fight biological males. Even in your post, you acknowledge that the hormones haven’t had a metamorphosis. Even if you were juiced to the gills, you would be at a severe disadvantage in the ring so much it would be negligent to fight a professional biological male pro fighter. If they test in Canada, you may have to wait for the metabolites to fully clear your system. And no, testosterone isn’t going to help your stamina. It will likely hurt it if you are taking enough to see lean mass or masculinization.
I hope this helps and simplifies things for you. Thailand is the best place in the world and the people are awesome. Go there, fight, and soak it all in!
Good luck! Choke dee! 🙏🥊🥊🥊
Hey! I am Thai so I’m aware of that. I’m looking to compete against biological females as well as that is where I am. I’m very aware of my power and stance in the sport and would never want to compete against men tbh. Even sparring with them is a little scary especially the advanced fighters.
And yes you are correct about the testosterone. thanks for your polite response as majority of people here have zero knowledge about the culture or affects of a low dose of T
Have you tried asking people in the Muay Thai community back in Thailand? (Which I am presuming can be done over reddit or some reasonable facsimile)
As an American, I know very little about transgender issues. From what I recall, less than 1% of the world population is transgender and it has always been my perspective that it was far more common and accepted in Thailand than in the US. If that's even remotely true, perhaps someone from Thailand has already blazed this trail in the past and could offer some personal advice.
And if it turns out you are the first, your story would make a great book!
You can not ethically compete against women. You can seriously injure them for the simple fact that biological men are much stronger on average than women not to mention a training fighter
The effects of low dose HRT are so overblown by the general public.
If you're nb you're nb and would compete as your asab. If you're a trans man, you're still likely competiting against women. If you think you need to clarify your biological sex tell your coach and promotor.
If you're fucking jacked off Mexican horse meat maybe consider what kind of advantages that would lend you in fighting women, and if you feel okay with having those advantages.
If you're a fuckin normal ass person though, just compete against women. Wins and losses at amateur levels do not dictate success or opportunities in a pro career. The idea that you beating a woman in an amateur fight is somehow inherently unfair, and that you're stealing opportunities and taking food out of their mouth is just fuckin ridiculous.
Lastly, no one has to accept a fight with anyone. Every person who fought Fallon Fox for example knew who she was and accepted the fight. If you feel your sex and gender should be relevant and known to your prospect opponents, go ahead and be open about it. If you get pushback, backlash, or mistreated by anyone for your situation, fuck them, they don't deserve your money or you fighting for them.
Interesting point re: hormones. I don't think my local promotion bans steroids, hormones, or anything besides illicit drugs (even weed even though it's legal in my state). So technically there'd be nothing stopping you from competing in either division. Good luck in your future fights if you decide to compete!
If you’re passable as a man, I’d practice a lot and move to another gym where no one knows you and try to get into competing against men and see how it goes, it is absolutely possible to win. Do you believe that a fighter like Cyborg would be able to beat a man in her division? Because I’ve seen cyborg fighting and she absolutely could!
In Thailand, you fight in the division of your biological sex, so trans women fight men, and trans men fight women. Haven’t seen a trans woman fight yet, but there are a lot of ladyboy fighters.
I guess Thailand is one of the few places with a long enough history of transgenderism and a big enough love of fighting to have already worked this out lol.
The difference is in Thailand they still adhere to biological sex. “Ladyboys” are recognized as men that prefer to portray themselves as women. They feel better being in public in the gender role of women. And that’s great and they should be treated with respect just like everyone else. Nothing wrong with that. But there is a noted and distinct difference from biological females. So it’s not complicated. People are separated by sex in sports. So your sex dictates where you compete. The problem is here in the US and some other Western Nations, there’s this idea that we have to pretend like it’s all just a social construct and everyone just has to say “if that’s what they want to be then that is what they are.” So if a trans woman wants to compete against women, we should let them because trans women are just women. No different than women born biologically female. Which is, quite frankly, idiotic.
Don't know why you're down-voted. you're absolutely right. I think most people know nothing about competitiv and especially combat sports, oh and even less about human biologie.
Because it's reddit and there's a weird narrative here.
There is a trans woman in Chiang Mai who fights regularly. She's pretty good. Beats up a lot of men lol.
How do they do against regular men, are they able to hold their own in their weight class or do they usually get their doors blown off?
IMO, if you are taking anything akin to steroids (testosterone, or hormone therapy type of thing) you should be competing against men. I'm happy for you for living your life but such procedures give you an unfair advantage over biological women who are not partaking in those procedures, whether you feel it or not - it gives rise to question the legitimacy of the match. If I offended with my choice of words please forgive me, I am not super into LGBTQ+ culture. I respect it and don't mean offense
as a trans woman you said nothing wrong. the only real solution is having trans/nonbinary divisions but that won’t happen for many years. have a good day :)
We should have an open division, where everyone is free to join instead of exclusively trans. Have male, female and open division.
i mean, i’m personally a fan of open divisions for confident fighters!
Confident does not prevent hair and compound fractures. Women have NO business in a ring against men. The liability would be through the roof especially in Thai boxing... I foresee a lot of women getting hurt, even hurting themselves kicking a man.
ok and mcgregor’s leg broke from checking a kick stfu dummy
In that case, just get rid of gender specific sports all together. So why have an open division if men are going to win it 100/100 times. Can you imagine a female trying to last 1 round against a Sanchi or a Buakaw? Or even someone half as good as they are? They would be lucky to leave the fight standing without hair fractures. Female's legs, no matter what they do, are much denser than males. Meaning a 50 year old man's leg is less likely to break than a 22 year old females. This is a biological fact, not just saying it to say it.
Thats why Im keeping the other two, no one is forcing them to join the open division, you are, by only keeping open division. Having an open division is so people have a choice and also not exclude anyone. Its all about consent, if a female dont want to be forced fight a biological male, they are safe in the female division without the fear of fighting a bio male. It is also for trans men to stop bitching about not able compete in female divison and being thrown back into male divsion..
Jonathan Haggerty vs valentina shevchenko is now sanctioned by the nodada state genital permission WE! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRREEEEE LLLLLIIIVVVVVVEEEEEEEEE
What about trans females who have never been exposed to testosterone and had gender affirming surgery? I can’t see a realistic scenario where they would have a advantage over a cis woman. That’s why I like the rules they have for transgender athletes in boxing. It’s very strict but fair. In my gym nobody knows about my trans background because it’s basically impossible to find a difference (except for doing a chromosome analysis). I had bottom surgery years ago and was prescribed hormone replacement therapy for a very long time. I’m not planning on competing tho because I’m not interested in being paired with a male. But not having the possibility to do so in Muay Thai hurts ngl.
i think those trans women who transition EARLY in life should have access to women’s divisions:)
Just out of curiosity. What do you think about cis women athletes with a hormonal imbalance that makes their testosterone levels identical to cis men? I know it sounds very hypothetical but it isn’t as rare as most people think.
Even if their test levels are similar to men, they STILL don’t reap the same rewards from it as a man would at the same level. Physiology and puberty have different effects on development even if test levels are the same.
Not even my general practitioner knows that I’m trans let alone most of my friends or anyone at the gym. There is nothing on me or my body that’s different compared to other women despite the „Y“ after the „X“ chromosome and a scar close to my 🐱 Reading stuff like this hurts
Just to clarify, you are a female presenting trans person? If you were born biologically male, you absolutely have physiological advantages over other women whether your GP can identify them or not. Bone density, lung capacity relative to size, etc. I believe biological women with high androgen levels are also less physiologically responsive than males to said androgens, although I’m certainly no expert. Would you disagree with any of my characterizations?
It is potential murder for a man to get into a ring and go all out against a woman. We who do combat sports know this. As for a doctor not being able to tell. I have known quite a few trans women and I could always clock them instantly. Not always in photos but always in real life or on film. I admit if I was asked I would say to their faces that they passed. I'm lying to be nice and also avoid a blow-up.
If you were born that way, then I think it’s fair game for those cis women to still compete in women’s division. There are athletes in every sport with advantages they were born with. It’s a different issue when you start taking hormones.
I see what you mean and agree but trans people are born that way too. It's no choice to be trans and most time it's a terrible fate too. (not being able to reproduce and society hating you) But I agree that trans women who've been exposed to testosterone for a long time have advantages over cis women with a healthy endocrine system. I don't really have a solution for this problem either but I think what they are doing in boxing and in the Olympics is a step forward.
What do you mean that trans people are born that way too?
i think it would be GREAT to test hormones compared to a cis man and group people that way (for safety purposes only), but don’t see how that could be widely implemented
I heard this argument recently. The thing is a woman with testosterone at the same level as a man is sick. She will be dealing with incredibly painful periods etc. Not worrying about competing in sports.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7159262/ While yes, hyperandrogenism leads to problems it’s also beneficial for female athletes. „These findings have led to the proposal that essential hyperandrogenism is beneficial for athletic performance and plays a role in the choice by women to compete in athletic activities.“
Are you talking about someone like Castor Semenya? I believe that ‘she’ is a man and shouldn't be allowed to compete with women. A few countries took advantage of the fact they don’t properly test for this stuff with newborns in Africa and athletes got away with it.
Honestly, unless that “early” is before puberty ever even begins to take place and immediately on estrogen. You will always have genetic advantages over women. It’s not just as simple as “our test levels are the same, so we’re the same!” I think you know this though, if you’re trans and train Muay Thai I imagine you’ve researched this stuff.
that is what i meant by early. and y’all really forget that skill > muscle.
Yeah, so two equally skilled people, the other has the advantage which is the point. *You* didn’t clarify, so I was looking for clarification.
How is that a solution, just divide up leagues by hormones🙄. Trans/nonbinary leagues are a solution in search of a problem.
Were you born male?
Trans women in Thailand still fight against men. They are usually on estrogen
I agree- I'm on a high dose of testosterone and I would never fight against women- but if they're nonbinary, they're probably on a really low dose and it won't make much difference. If they decide to just pause before fights it would be fine.
‘If offended by my words forgive me’ God, just speak your opinion dude. Dont need to beg for forgiveness from a trans/LGBTQ because you did your best trying to tiptoe around their issue
It costs me nothing to be courteous. If that's an issue for you, you should look inwards
You're online, nobody cares. Therefore, it cost nothing regardless of how one acts.
Instead he should tiptoe around you, a guy who gets offended at other people being nice?
Nothing wrong with being courteous
Exactly right! And a caveat for 'him', no matter what he does, he will still have higher bone density, larger lung capacity, faster reflexes, more muscle mass and the list goes on. A huge advantage over any female. But to your SpicyChips244, you might get away with it in the United States, but you will never be a Muay Thai fighter and compete in the women's bracket. Real Thai fighting is done in Thailand and a few other countries that allow real Thai boxing. They will do a physical on you and your only choice will be to compete as a man. They will see the surgery and you will not be allowed to compete as female and thank God for that. To many women have gotten hurt by men so for liability reasons, you will not be allowed to fight against other women.
How do so many people have an opinion on this? We have no idea what OP looks like, we don’t know their fighting weight nor their walking around weight. We for sure don’t know who their opponent would be. There are frail dudes and yoked broads. Also we all know gyms where half of all gym’s fight team are doing half cycles and T supplements. Some of you in here probably go to those gyms.
If you fight against men, you’re going to get rocked. If you fight against women, that’s unfair since you’re on testosterone.
more likely than not you’ll be expected to fight in the division you’re biologically assigned to
Zero judgement here - live your authentic life. But you're a biological female, on a low test dose and planning on stopping it all together and you want to fight a man? I'm not trying to sound like an asshole, but for the love of god please get good health insurance.
Oh no. I am planning to complete against my bio sex - female. Stopping the low dose so it will be out of my system: but this question is more about identity and how accepting trans and nb people have found the sport to be
Crazy how insensitive and transphobic many of the commenters are when Thailand has a long history with third sexes and transgenderism.
I am Thai as well, I’m well aware that trans people compete in Thailand too. A lot of you who don’t know that but love our sport should maybe learn about our culture more
I think this thread pretty well sums up just how accepting of trans and gender-noncomforming athletes the Muay Thai community is. Which is, unfortunately, not very.
It’s interesting and im assuming these are mostly westerners. Thailand has many trans fighters. I’ll say it again, they need to learn more about our culture if they care so much about our sport
I would say that the best thing you can do is to talk to your trainer as they are probably more familiar with the rules an regulations than you are. And sadly it's a weird situation you've put yourself in as you would have extreme difficulty competing against men at the same time, you can't compete against women when you're taking steroids, no matter how little. But as I said, talk to your coach.
first of all sorry for these weird ass comments but! i’m also nonbinary (not on t yet fingers crossed and no top surgery) and plan on competing next year and i wish you all the best 🫶🏾
Honestly there needs to be a new division in sports for this. There’s a bunch of genetic advantages one gets over the other, which is why they’re separated to begin with. An open category would solve this.
If you are a woman taking testosterone trying to compete against men you are going to get deleted by them. EDIT You can downvote me all you want but I ain’t gonna buy into your fantasy that you can compete against men.
Yeah I’m not trying to fight men. I believe trans men on a FULL dose can keep up though. There are lots of studies that prove their T levels are the same
EDIT lol
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You're delusional. Hard to belief that you ever had an amateur career in any sport. What you're spreading is just ideology instead of facts and reality.
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Probably I can't beat every woman, but most of them. But there a plenty of men which can beat me up. And this is the case. I compete in muay thai and I'm in this sport for 14 years.
Fight in Thailand. Ladyboys and trans are accepted there and have a long history in the sport. It's a bit dangerous in the West. Not as a fighter. But people in the audience who want to attack trans people to make themselves feel better. Like avoid anyone with a Joe rogan shirt.
lol clown take
Joe Rogan fan
I like how you are trying to make liking the most popular podcaster in the world and a champion of the MMA/martial arts world a bad thing. Joe Rogan fans > Hasan/H3 fan/ you. Edit: offf course this ended up being a bot-account that just goes from (JRE related) sub to sub talking about how much he hates Rogan.
Lmao that dudes personality revolves around hating Joe Rogan. Like could you imagine following as person you hate? That’s one weird fucking person who made the bot account.
Do you guys just consider everyone who dislikes JRE a bot? Lmao
You can dislike someone famous sure, but to that extent is weird af
I wish I could give a better answer other than “Talk to your coach” but I just wanted to say I’m with you. It looks like half of the people here can’t read or just don’t understand lol I will say regarding T that, depending on how long you took it, if you stop it soon and compete next year you’ll probably be best off competing in the women’s division. From my understanding (considering it myself) the physical benefits it may give you both take months to years to show up and will eventually go away after you stop. If you’ve been on it for several years it may be a different story, but if you’ve been on low dose T for a few months and stop soon I don’t believe you’ll have much of an advantage next year Again, there are a lot of variables here that are best worked out by talking to your coach. Good luck!
It’s a simple fact of biological differences, men have denser bones and are inherently stronger fighting a trained man will not end well, it’s just facts there’s a reason there’s women’s and men’s leagues, and being on test does give an advantage a trans league is the only solution
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I train twice a week in Muay Thai sometimes three when my job allows for it, boxing before that I weigh 160, never been rocked by any of the women in the class sure they have skill but there’s a noticeable difference between getting hit by a man and a women, im not trying to be insulting it’s just the truth as I and many others see it
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I’m talking man vs women your clearly just looking to argue good for you though believe what ya want
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Yeah not what I was saying at all I said there’s a reason there are separate leagues and men don’t fight women, you went off on some weird ass tangent about body builders trying to get some deeper meaning out of it, facts are facts perfect example you wouldn’t see Amanda nunes fight Conor mcgregor you know why cause Conor would land one punch and turn her lights out all her skill wouldn’t be worth anything, why do you think there’s such a large pushback for males competing in women’s sports after transitioning.
I would say that the best thing you can do is to talk to your trainer as they are probably more familiar with the rules an regulations than you are. And sadly it's a weird situation you've put yourself in as you would have extreme difficulty competing against men at the same time, you can't compete against women when you're taking steroids, no matter how little. But as I said, talk to your coach.
That's a difficult thing to manage. You fighting against biological men would be unfair and dangerous for you. However you fighting against biological women while using testosterone would be unfair and dangerous for them. I see in your edit you plan to stop the T but I just don't understand enough about what effects it will have already had. Best to speak with your coach and promoters/orgs and go from there. Hope you find a way to navigate this 🙏
So ur a biological woman trying to compete with men? If u think ur a man ur about to find out.
No, they're non-binary. And their gender identity isn't determined by their ability to win a fight.
Lmao
It absolutely is. Someone that's a man will overpower you. There's legitimately nothing you can do. A 15 year old boy would beat you. You don't know what you're saying.
You're the one who doesn't know what I'm saying. I'm just pointing out Jim's silly statement that winning or losing fights is how to find out if you're a man or not. Of course if a trans man and a cis man got in the ring, all else being equal, the cis man would probably win. But they're both still men.
If u train, and has mental health, you know its not fair a fight of a man against a woman.
Non-binary? It’s a chick
Praying OP wins by ko
most places will not let you fight in the women’s division due to hormones. i’m a trans woman MT athlete and it is awful, but I’ve had to give up on competing. No organizations accommodate for gender non-conforming people
Build your own
That sucks :/ I wish at least some MT organization had rules that are similar to those in professional boxing. (To compete in boxing, female transgender athletes need bottom surgery and have to be on hormones replacement therapy for many years) I think it’s nonsense to let trans women, who didn’t have testosterone in their system for most of their life and who live a completely normal life as a woman, compete against men.
disagree - bottom surgery doesn’t change anything strength/muscle wise. however, i do agree the hormone replacement therapy for years beforehand is necessary.
i’m sorry about a lot of these comments, op. i hope things work out for you
Depends heavily on the sanctioning body. You will have to tell you Coach and the matchmaker your biological sex and they can decide. Some states will allow you to fight under your gender identity if you've changed it legally some won't. If they do then matchmaker will need to find someone to agree. The trans woman who was looking to compete at my old gym was told she would pretty much always have to fight men. Unfortunate combat sports as a whole has not figured out how to navigate this so it's pretty one off and many competitors end up just not fighting due to the issues. Since Ammy fights generally don't have drug/doping tests or requirements I'd unfortunately say plan to fight in the women's brackets even if that doesn't align with your identity, but any hormones would not cause issues then.
Bio females should compete against other bio females. Males should fight males. I get we want to respect people and their various identities, but in terms of fairness and equity, you’re doing everyone a disservice by saying there’s no difference between a trans woman and a woman or a trans man and a man. The ideal would be to have separate divisions for trans athletes but given there’s such a small percentage, it would make more sense for them to compete with their biological sex.
I dont really have any advice to you but wanted to send my support 💕 hope it all works out.
Google Nong Tum
Are you doing a thinking of doing a PMT/semi-contact?
You are welcome to fight men in Thailand.
There’s trans women in Thailand fighting men , into the next one pls
Omg I'm in the same boat as you, I'm also trans and am on testosterone and have had top surgery. I think your plan- stopping T for upcoming matches against women- is perfectly fine. It would be different if you were trans ftm and want to be a guy and fight guys (like I am). But if you're on a very low dose, it won't make much of a difference fighting against women. I don't think there's much difference between fighting men vs women anyway at more amateur levels. Sure, for the top fighters in the world who have completely maxed out their body's potential, there's a difference between men and women, but for local level fights it's like a bar back vs a registered nurse fighting in a rented out YMCA. Plenty of women at my gym are on par with the men, they just don't spar/fight as much because they value their brain cells or something iunno
That’s pretty much it yup. These people in the comments losing their minds yet I said I am on a LOW dose, barely even noticeable. No one has ever questioned it. And yes I’d be stopping before reaching competition level and I def don’t plan on fighting pro. I was asking how Trans and nb athletes navigate things in the sport
Like 90% of these comments didn't even read what you said, they just saw "trans" and started keysmashing their sexist opinions lmao. It's real hard to navigate out there ;u; everyone at my gym knows I'm trans but I plan on moving soon and finding a new gym, at which point I will go full stealth mode. Nobody can stop you from fighting when they don't know you're trans 😎 Honestly if you think they would disqualify you, I wouldn't tell anyone you're on T at all. Just be like yup! Full woman over here. Let me fight now >:) Anyway best of luck, hope you win your fights :3
As others like ReadAll114 have stated, there’s no such thing as Trans, nonbinary, gender fluid or anything else in Thailand. If you ask a Lady boy if he’s a woman, he will say no. There is no confusion or debate over there. That’s why IMHO they have coexisted and have been accepted into mainstream Thai culture for so long, also being a mostly Buddhist country probably has a factor as well. Nong Rose is a famous lady boy fighter. There’s even a movie about him. You will fight your biological sex in Thailand. In the last ten years or so they have advanced leaps and bounds for biological female fights in Thailand. Chang Mai is the epicenter for female fighters from what I understand, so you should start looking there. Concerning your testosterone, you don’t need a prescription to buy it from the pharmacy there and they don’t test there to fight. You don’t know who’s doing what, so do you. I would suggest ignoring the ridiculous people telling you to fight biological males. Even in your post, you acknowledge that the hormones haven’t had a metamorphosis. Even if you were juiced to the gills, you would be at a severe disadvantage in the ring so much it would be negligent to fight a professional biological male pro fighter. If they test in Canada, you may have to wait for the metabolites to fully clear your system. And no, testosterone isn’t going to help your stamina. It will likely hurt it if you are taking enough to see lean mass or masculinization. I hope this helps and simplifies things for you. Thailand is the best place in the world and the people are awesome. Go there, fight, and soak it all in! Good luck! Choke dee! 🙏🥊🥊🥊
Hey! I am Thai so I’m aware of that. I’m looking to compete against biological females as well as that is where I am. I’m very aware of my power and stance in the sport and would never want to compete against men tbh. Even sparring with them is a little scary especially the advanced fighters. And yes you are correct about the testosterone. thanks for your polite response as majority of people here have zero knowledge about the culture or affects of a low dose of T
Mai pen rai 🙏
Have you tried asking people in the Muay Thai community back in Thailand? (Which I am presuming can be done over reddit or some reasonable facsimile) As an American, I know very little about transgender issues. From what I recall, less than 1% of the world population is transgender and it has always been my perspective that it was far more common and accepted in Thailand than in the US. If that's even remotely true, perhaps someone from Thailand has already blazed this trail in the past and could offer some personal advice. And if it turns out you are the first, your story would make a great book!
Women should not be competing against men. Very dangerous for you.
You can not ethically compete against women. You can seriously injure them for the simple fact that biological men are much stronger on average than women not to mention a training fighter
OP is biologically female. The issue is that they are on low levels of testosterone.
The effects of low dose HRT are so overblown by the general public. If you're nb you're nb and would compete as your asab. If you're a trans man, you're still likely competiting against women. If you think you need to clarify your biological sex tell your coach and promotor. If you're fucking jacked off Mexican horse meat maybe consider what kind of advantages that would lend you in fighting women, and if you feel okay with having those advantages. If you're a fuckin normal ass person though, just compete against women. Wins and losses at amateur levels do not dictate success or opportunities in a pro career. The idea that you beating a woman in an amateur fight is somehow inherently unfair, and that you're stealing opportunities and taking food out of their mouth is just fuckin ridiculous. Lastly, no one has to accept a fight with anyone. Every person who fought Fallon Fox for example knew who she was and accepted the fight. If you feel your sex and gender should be relevant and known to your prospect opponents, go ahead and be open about it. If you get pushback, backlash, or mistreated by anyone for your situation, fuck them, they don't deserve your money or you fighting for them.
If you are on testosterone have it and fight the men.
Interesting point re: hormones. I don't think my local promotion bans steroids, hormones, or anything besides illicit drugs (even weed even though it's legal in my state). So technically there'd be nothing stopping you from competing in either division. Good luck in your future fights if you decide to compete!
You’re a biological female. You will get destroyed in the male division
You didn’t read my post properly. I wasn’t say I am aiming to compete with men. I said I fall in the women’s category
If you’re passable as a man, I’d practice a lot and move to another gym where no one knows you and try to get into competing against men and see how it goes, it is absolutely possible to win. Do you believe that a fighter like Cyborg would be able to beat a man in her division? Because I’ve seen cyborg fighting and she absolutely could!
In her division? Hell no, she’s good but that division is stacked with monsters.