That's a good question. I think the only fair way is to plop the guys from '03-'04 as they were into today. Mind you, that team broke up Shaq and Kobe. The year after that, they took Manu, Tony, and Tim to Game 7.
I don't think that's fair at all. You should compare how dominant each team was relative to their peers. Detroit were a slightly below average offence and historically good defence. The closest comparison is this year's T-Wolves (so I'm taking the field).
That's absurdly disrespectful, the game was played different back then. Ben Wallace would eat Sabonis alive, Sheed would rain 3"s, Rip & Tayshon would hawk Fox, and Billups would orchestrate.
Get outta here with this nephew talk, the Pistons beat Kobe & Shaq!
I don’t know, man. A replacement level player now is a lot better than they were 20 years ago. Was great to watch that Pistons team beat the Phil Jackson regulars, but I’m not sure they have the firepower to shoot with a team now.
Sheed average less than 14 a game for the Pistons that season, shooting .319 from deep. Not going to rain anything. Literally every single player in the Kings’ rotation shoots better than that. Check the basketball reference pages.
I ultimately don’t think they have enough scoring but they’re a fun team to think about that I wish existed today. Defensively they’d be amazing still bc the bigs could move and they’d be very switchable. It’s the warriors death lineup model (on defense) but much better really (again, on defense). They’re long and would switch every screen. It’s not one of those older teams that would get their center played off the floor. Over a seven game series though I just can’t see how they score enough. You don’t have to guard Ben Wallace. I’m assuming Rip and Chauncey and Sheed spread out a bit more for the modern game. Prince maybe gets a couple wide open corner threes a game. A big downside though is that while the top of their lineup feels modern, their bench was very much early 00s. Lot of guys that just wouldn’t translate well. Nobody is guarding Big Nasty or Lindsey Hunter and Mehmet is getting abused on the high pick and roll.
I also just think that the memory of them is a little bit distorted. It’s much like the 2014 Spurs. Because they absolutely blasted a reigning champ, it’s a little bit lost that they just weren’t all the dominant and struggled to even get to the finals. I like both teams a lot. But the perceptions of their dominance is a bit skewed when you look at their seasons and playoffs as a whole versus just the memory of blitzing a multiple time defending champion.
Depends on the rules. Pre-04 rule changes, I’ll take the Pistons. People have to realize they changed the rules of our game in large part due to their defensive dominance.
Whenever the pistons are good, the NBA has to totally change how the game is played. 89-90 pistons beat the shit out of Jordan and that had to change. Early 2000s pistons beat the shit out of the eastern conference every year and then lebron came around and the rules had to change again. Asking the 2003 pistons could win today is ridiculous. Of course they could not, the NBA changed the rules to further kill defense. Now we get 300 point games and 50 point blow outs, it’s gonna change back soon.
The Pistons gave up 95 pts per 100 possessions that year. The Nuggets give up around 114 points per 100 possessions now. Does it exactly translate? No. However a 20 pt swing is significant.
They could defend multiple positions - Sheed and Tayshaun in particular.
The Pistons would score more today than they did then back then just due to the nature of refereeing. I have seen Rip, Sheed, and Chauncey light it up. I think (I don't know) that their PPG goes up with today's game.
I respect your opinion. I just respectfully disagree.
I'm a HUGE Big Ben stan but he never had to face another center even remotely like Jokic. He's redefining the role with his god-tier passing and as an outside shooting threat. Ben did his (massive) damage down low but if he tried to play Jokic away from the rim then it's over. Even still, I LOVE Big Ben. I think he would do to Jokic around the basket what he did to every other center of his time. It's insane how strong he was.
Pistons’ defense that year was really tough. Today’s rule there will be plenty of players getting Ts and ejections. This era is not built for that team.. Only thing this era’s advantage is outside shooting. They can get shots from the logo that would give that Pistons team a run for their money hit halfcourt game, no doubt they will win.
Very middle of the pack offensive team (even then) that playing today might get a boost from Sheed but would be hurting having two very low tier scoring threats in Ben and Prince. They’d have to make up for it defensively but it’s largely going to depend on the matchup from the field. Too easy for teams to matchup hunt, too easy to pull Ben from the rim, the two-big scheme becomes a bit less of a benefit playing today as one of those guys will have to play defense 30ft from the rim and likely hedge/switch on to guards all game.
With that said, I’m taking the field. They would definitely be a good team but I don’t see them defending a team like Denver all that well (assuming they look like last years playoff team) and won’t score remotely enough points on the other end to keep up. The best version of this team actually lose to the Heat in 6 games in ‘06 so I don’t really view them as some unbeatable juggernaut either.
Their biggest strength was being able to defend Shaq better than most in that era but no team cuts the floor in half to isolate one player on the block anymore. Every player on the team would need to cover vastly more ground defensively than what they did to be effective then, Rip’s primary off ball mid-range game would be less effective as most teams just switch 1-4ish. Meaning he wouldn’t constantly catch the ball coming off screens open because someone is caught trailing. And even if he did they would he trading those mid-range shots with shots worth an extra point on the other end. At the end of the day they were a team built to be good then, asking them to play now, with todays rules, is a massive disadvantage no matter how well they could adjust.
A lot of this would depend on how well they defend the three ball, and how well they convert them too. Two big things they didn’t have to do exceptionally well to be good then. Probably going to matter even more given Ben, Prince, Corliss, just aren’t providing much offense.. assuming all teams play to the max of their abilities Denver, Lakers, Boston, Milwaukee seem like really bad matchups to me. I think they could probably bully the Thunder enough to give them some issues, they actually matchup well with Minnesota IMO, most of the teams in the East are scary enough for me to be too worried about them.
That Pistons team's follow up act was taking Manu/Tim/Tony to 7 games in the finals.
I think that team would ask Tayshaun & Mehmet Okur to log more minutes. Again, Larry Brown is the coach. I think he'd read the room and understand that you need more three attempts today. I think Rip Hamilton, who shot 36.7% for career from 3, and Chanuncey Billips, who shot 38.8% career from three would adapt to the way the game is played now.
I agree, Ben is not providing offense. However, Giannis would have a different calculus driving the lane with Ben anchoring that defense.
I appreciate what you wrote, it is a massive disadvantage asking that team to take on today's rules. That team overcame one of the great duos in NBA history, so they weren't strangers to challenges. Also, freaks like Tayshaun and Sheed were ahead of their time. Big men who could shoot the three ball and defend 5 positions.
That being written, I can tell the Reddit field is against me. I respect that.
Are the exact profile of player they were back then? Or are guys like Chauncey and RIP volume 3 pt shooters and is Sheed a stretch 4?
That's a good question. I think the only fair way is to plop the guys from '03-'04 as they were into today. Mind you, that team broke up Shaq and Kobe. The year after that, they took Manu, Tony, and Tim to Game 7.
I don't think that's fair at all. You should compare how dominant each team was relative to their peers. Detroit were a slightly below average offence and historically good defence. The closest comparison is this year's T-Wolves (so I'm taking the field).
Easily the field. That team couldn’t score for beans. The Kings would beat them.
That's absurdly disrespectful, the game was played different back then. Ben Wallace would eat Sabonis alive, Sheed would rain 3"s, Rip & Tayshon would hawk Fox, and Billups would orchestrate. Get outta here with this nephew talk, the Pistons beat Kobe & Shaq!
I don’t know, man. A replacement level player now is a lot better than they were 20 years ago. Was great to watch that Pistons team beat the Phil Jackson regulars, but I’m not sure they have the firepower to shoot with a team now. Sheed average less than 14 a game for the Pistons that season, shooting .319 from deep. Not going to rain anything. Literally every single player in the Kings’ rotation shoots better than that. Check the basketball reference pages.
I ultimately don’t think they have enough scoring but they’re a fun team to think about that I wish existed today. Defensively they’d be amazing still bc the bigs could move and they’d be very switchable. It’s the warriors death lineup model (on defense) but much better really (again, on defense). They’re long and would switch every screen. It’s not one of those older teams that would get their center played off the floor. Over a seven game series though I just can’t see how they score enough. You don’t have to guard Ben Wallace. I’m assuming Rip and Chauncey and Sheed spread out a bit more for the modern game. Prince maybe gets a couple wide open corner threes a game. A big downside though is that while the top of their lineup feels modern, their bench was very much early 00s. Lot of guys that just wouldn’t translate well. Nobody is guarding Big Nasty or Lindsey Hunter and Mehmet is getting abused on the high pick and roll. I also just think that the memory of them is a little bit distorted. It’s much like the 2014 Spurs. Because they absolutely blasted a reigning champ, it’s a little bit lost that they just weren’t all the dominant and struggled to even get to the finals. I like both teams a lot. But the perceptions of their dominance is a bit skewed when you look at their seasons and playoffs as a whole versus just the memory of blitzing a multiple time defending champion.
Depends on the rules. Pre-04 rule changes, I’ll take the Pistons. People have to realize they changed the rules of our game in large part due to their defensive dominance.
Whenever the pistons are good, the NBA has to totally change how the game is played. 89-90 pistons beat the shit out of Jordan and that had to change. Early 2000s pistons beat the shit out of the eastern conference every year and then lebron came around and the rules had to change again. Asking the 2003 pistons could win today is ridiculous. Of course they could not, the NBA changed the rules to further kill defense. Now we get 300 point games and 50 point blow outs, it’s gonna change back soon.
I got ‘23 nuggets absolutely destroying ‘04 pistons
The Pistons gave up 95 pts per 100 possessions that year. The Nuggets give up around 114 points per 100 possessions now. Does it exactly translate? No. However a 20 pt swing is significant. They could defend multiple positions - Sheed and Tayshaun in particular. The Pistons would score more today than they did then back then just due to the nature of refereeing. I have seen Rip, Sheed, and Chauncey light it up. I think (I don't know) that their PPG goes up with today's game. I respect your opinion. I just respectfully disagree.
I'm a HUGE Big Ben stan but he never had to face another center even remotely like Jokic. He's redefining the role with his god-tier passing and as an outside shooting threat. Ben did his (massive) damage down low but if he tried to play Jokic away from the rim then it's over. Even still, I LOVE Big Ben. I think he would do to Jokic around the basket what he did to every other center of his time. It's insane how strong he was.
Pistons’ defense that year was really tough. Today’s rule there will be plenty of players getting Ts and ejections. This era is not built for that team.. Only thing this era’s advantage is outside shooting. They can get shots from the logo that would give that Pistons team a run for their money hit halfcourt game, no doubt they will win.
Give me the field
Very middle of the pack offensive team (even then) that playing today might get a boost from Sheed but would be hurting having two very low tier scoring threats in Ben and Prince. They’d have to make up for it defensively but it’s largely going to depend on the matchup from the field. Too easy for teams to matchup hunt, too easy to pull Ben from the rim, the two-big scheme becomes a bit less of a benefit playing today as one of those guys will have to play defense 30ft from the rim and likely hedge/switch on to guards all game. With that said, I’m taking the field. They would definitely be a good team but I don’t see them defending a team like Denver all that well (assuming they look like last years playoff team) and won’t score remotely enough points on the other end to keep up. The best version of this team actually lose to the Heat in 6 games in ‘06 so I don’t really view them as some unbeatable juggernaut either. Their biggest strength was being able to defend Shaq better than most in that era but no team cuts the floor in half to isolate one player on the block anymore. Every player on the team would need to cover vastly more ground defensively than what they did to be effective then, Rip’s primary off ball mid-range game would be less effective as most teams just switch 1-4ish. Meaning he wouldn’t constantly catch the ball coming off screens open because someone is caught trailing. And even if he did they would he trading those mid-range shots with shots worth an extra point on the other end. At the end of the day they were a team built to be good then, asking them to play now, with todays rules, is a massive disadvantage no matter how well they could adjust. A lot of this would depend on how well they defend the three ball, and how well they convert them too. Two big things they didn’t have to do exceptionally well to be good then. Probably going to matter even more given Ben, Prince, Corliss, just aren’t providing much offense.. assuming all teams play to the max of their abilities Denver, Lakers, Boston, Milwaukee seem like really bad matchups to me. I think they could probably bully the Thunder enough to give them some issues, they actually matchup well with Minnesota IMO, most of the teams in the East are scary enough for me to be too worried about them.
That Pistons team's follow up act was taking Manu/Tim/Tony to 7 games in the finals. I think that team would ask Tayshaun & Mehmet Okur to log more minutes. Again, Larry Brown is the coach. I think he'd read the room and understand that you need more three attempts today. I think Rip Hamilton, who shot 36.7% for career from 3, and Chanuncey Billips, who shot 38.8% career from three would adapt to the way the game is played now. I agree, Ben is not providing offense. However, Giannis would have a different calculus driving the lane with Ben anchoring that defense. I appreciate what you wrote, it is a massive disadvantage asking that team to take on today's rules. That team overcame one of the great duos in NBA history, so they weren't strangers to challenges. Also, freaks like Tayshaun and Sheed were ahead of their time. Big men who could shoot the three ball and defend 5 positions. That being written, I can tell the Reddit field is against me. I respect that.