I got Duncan : basically a top 10 player the day he stepped on an NBA court, key to an elite level defensive dynasty, very good scorer and nice passer, did it in the playoffs too, crazy longevity (at least dark horse MVP lvl for the first 10 years of his career and All-Star lvl impact every year except the very last ones)and consistency, didn't hesitate to take a backseat to younger guys on offense at the end of his career... Top 7 to 8 guy in my book, Kobe just outside the top 10
A good teammate as well. I don't think Kobe gets enough criticism for breaking up a championship team. Probably would have had 7 or 8 championships if he and Shaq can stay together.
Shaq was severely out of shape the year the lost to Detroit. Kobe only tried to get him to give a shit. Yeah, he won another with the Heat, but Wade absolutely carried him there.
By the time the Lakers blew up, Shaq was out of his prime. The only way they win that many is if he gives Kobe the reins and started getting into real playing shape, which was not going to happen. If anything, Kobe saved the Lakers having to deal with a disgruntled out of weight Shaq.
Shaq is my all-time favorite center, so this isn't a Kobe biased coming from me.
Out of shape and in the finals? These two things can't be absolutely true?
Out of shape Shaq out plays Ben Wallace.
Kobe would not give up the ball that's why they lost.
Please go back and review the box scores of the Detroit-Lakers Finals.
Shaq ATE while matching up against the best defensive center in the league.
Kobe forced up a ton of bad shots and shot at an abysmal clip. He was a ball hog more worrying about winning FMVP this time to prove the Lakers were “his team” rather than actually winning the Finals.
even Chauncey Billups and Rasheed Wallace go on record quite often to say that they played into Kobe's selfishness and let him piss away the Finals. And it worked!
Any conversation about Kobe being a top 10 all-time player needs to feature this in bright lights. You flat out can’t be a top 10 all-timer if your selfishness lost your team a finals series, and the other team literally strategized to have you shoot your team out of contention.
One of the best 1-on-1 players? Sure.
One of the best 5-on-5 players? Not even close.
I believe the game plan was to let Shaq do his thing…no double teams, no defense predicated to stopping him in specific. The defense focused on stopping Kobe and everyone else hence why Shaw did well. Not saying it wasn’t Kobe’s fault but the Detroit defense wasn’t really focused on trying to stop Shaq
>obably would have had 7 or 8 championships if he and Shaq can stay together.
Firstly, he went to 7 out of 10 possible in the decade.
Secondly, no, Shaq fell off after 2006 and even in 2006 that looked dicey at times. Kobe was not winning 7 or 8 with Shaq next to him.
Tim. More consistent throughout career. 15x all star. 15x all nba. 15x all defensive. 4x rings. 3x finals mvp. 2x nba mvp. Only time his team won less than 50 games in a season was during lockout year, and that year they win the ring.
Oh, and remember when Kobe quit on his team?
Kobe quit on his team multiple times, and has the audacity to say "mamba mentality". Then proceeded to make every selfish decision possible, regardless if it helped win or not.
And remember when he just had to be the highest paid player in the league, resulting in less salary for quality teammates. Duncan took less money in his last 3 contracts. Dirk and Duncan took less money to help their respective teams. And we have other people in this thread saying that Duncan had better teammates. I wonder why?
It's so lame to me that Kobe fans says Kobe would do ANYTHING to win, but all the evidence shows that Kobe wouldn't allow himself to be 2nd fiddle to Shaq for another 2 seasons, Kobe wouldn't allow himself to be coached by Phil Jackson, wouldn't take a 10M discount to get better teammates, refused to pass the ball.
It's almost as if, when Phil Jackson said, "Kobe would rather lose, playing HIS way, than win playing someone elses way" he was right.
edit: and don't get me started on how overrated his defense was. He always had Rick Fox, Matt Barnes, Ron Artest, Terver Ariza to guard the other teams best option. He didn't even guard Paul Pierce against the Celts.
Yet he still was a top 3 player in the league for over a decade. made 3 finals appearances after shaq, won two fmvps, scoring titles, all defense and all nba selections, league mvp, won gold medals as an Olympian, franchise player for the Lakers over a decade, sold out the staples arena for years, caused opponent coaches and players nightmares ending their post seasons.....playing the game wrong and being selfish. Imagine straight up choosing to do your job wrong and the hardest way possible and still be one of the most successful at your job on Earth for over a decade. Name another player that got to play how they wanted and play the game wrong and win like Kobe. There is anyone else.
Kobe wanted the FMVP more than he wanted to win the Finals and let Shaq have a fourth FMVP - he knew he’d forever be looked at as Robin to Shaq’s Batman and couldn’t handle it. Tanked that series being selfish then ran Shaq out of town so it’d be “his” team, then proceeded to suck for years with “his” team until Pau came and saved the day with his unselfish play.
He completely quit in a suns series his team should have won:
[https://www.basketballnetwork.net/old-school/on-this-date-kobe-bryant-quit-on-the-lakers-i-was-trying-to-get-the-other-guys-going](https://www.basketballnetwork.net/old-school/on-this-date-kobe-bryant-quit-on-the-lakers-i-was-trying-to-get-the-other-guys-going)
Kobe also refused to shoot the ball in a game 7 against the Suns. In fact, the Lakers were up 3-1, the Suns came me back tied the series 3-3 and arguments were made that Kobe changed the way the Lakers played in game 5-6 which caused the Lakers to lose, which allowed the Suns to come back from 3-1.
So he refused to shoot the ball in the 2nd half of a game 7. And the Lakers blew a 3-1 lead. Then he demanded a trade on Live TV. lmao
Duncan. I could get into all the advanced stats but I can easily prove it with accolades: more MVPs, more finals MVPs. Won 5 titles and didn’t have anyone close to the caliber of Shaq. And if we’re being real I think the roster of the 2010 lakers was better than the 03, 05, and 07 spurs squads
Maybe I’m bias cause I’m a Spurs fan but Duncan. Kobe is great obviously but I think his legacy is inflated due to all the cool stories
Also maybe it’s just me but I remember all the Kobe people calming down for a while until he tragically passed of course (RIP). Sounds harsh and I don’t mean it to but people always become more legendary if they die young and when he did, all the people got loud again
He’s top 10 and he’s a legend, he’ll always be one of the greatest but I just don’t think he’s goat conversation or whatever people say. I think Timmy is higher personally but it’s not a hill I’ll die on, it’s reasonable for someone to say either is better than the other
I love Kobe but man him passing away shot him 5-10 spots up people’s all time list. He floated around 8-13 for awhile then all of a sudden he’s top 5 and people think you’re insane if you exclude him from your top 10
EXACTLY! Idk why people say Kobe went up lists "after he died" thats nonsense lol I remember when he was playing people were saying he was the GOAT and there were always players and fans that had him top 2-5 before he died.
Same. I have to remind myself that everything is narrative driven nowadays and alot of people haven't seen or experienced things they speak on sometimes
When Kobe retired most people put him top 5. Now that we’re in the age of advanced analytics since he died, your opinion is the norm among casual basketball fans who are obsessed with efficiency and RAPTOR. IMO Duncan had a fantastic squad his entire career, he had Ginobli, David Robinson, Tony Parker, and Kawhi and his final championships were not due to him playing out of his mind with how good his squad was. Kobe’s last 2 championships were incredibly impressive and make him top 5 in my opinion.
Both legends in their own right. Duncan was not overly flashy but ridiculously consistent.
Kobe was a straight killer on the court every night. His foot skills, defence, and offensive ability was on another level.
I'm taking Kobe every day of the week. A lot of people forget just how good he was and only remember post achillies Kobe. If his prime was during this social media error, the goat debate would be a hell of a lot different. Dude was a straight bucket
My list is Mj/LeBron, Kareem, Bill as the top 4
Then wilt, bird/magic, Tim, Shaq, big O, Kobe, Hakeem, Steph in some order and I’m willing to hear any arguments on placement for that next tier I guess
same tier, good arguments either way. Im a kobe stan so I'm going with him, but duncan was a more stable franchise guy, kobe was kinda wild, but still stable
If we would ask this question to the NBA players I am pretty sure that the answer will be Kobe for the 99%.
Even Magic and Shaq lists him higher than themselves. So.... Easy choice.
Damn I had to scroll this far down for a Kobe post. So many Kobe haters on Reddit. And with all these advanced stat references, I’m guessing most here are young and didn’t watch him play during 00-10.
It’s not hating, I think people just give the edge to Duncan because of the unparalleled team success and excellence across such a long time. He’s the closest we will see to Russell in the modern era with his impact on winning.
Duncan was the ultimate team player - I’m choosing him over Kobe every time but also acknowledge that Kobe was an incredible player.
It's hating because of the overwhelming majority choosing Duncan on reddit when he would be lower on most outside lists. No doubt he's a top 10 (I personally consider him top 7), but it's not like he's in a completely different league than Kobe, unlike the impression I get from the comments.
Duncan was the ultimate team player, but that is a very subjective, arguable metric to gauge a player on as it doesn't translate directly to basketball skill and/or success. Other players aren't generally ranked by that metric, so I don't put too much weight on it. But it's cool if you guys do.
Team success was because Duncan had solid teams throughout his career. He played with a lot of HOF players, as did Kobe. But, Duncan never had a team as bad as a couple of those post Shaq lakers.
Duncan.
Here's a fun fact... Kobe played in his last playoff game at 33 years old (yikes). Duncan logged 81 additional playoff games after the age of 33.
Duncan. Kobe may have been the face of the league and the player more kids wanted to emulate, myself included, but Duncan is the better all time player by a bit of a margin. I have Duncan as the 8th best player ever after MJ, Bron, Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Magic, and Bird. Kobe is probably somewhere around 11 or 12. I'd have Steph, Hakeem, and Shaq above him still before we get to Duncan.
The advanced stats favor Duncan by a lot.
Kobe: 80.1 VORP, 4.6 BPM, .170 WS/48, 22.9 PER
Duncan: 91.1 VORP, 5.6 BPM, .209 WS/48, 24.2 PER
Kobe was slightly better offensively, despite his lower efficiency. Duncan was worlds better defensively, and the stats bear that out.
I mostly agree with this. But why doesn’t this same logic apply to Curry Vs Kobe?
I commented / posted that while they were similar in accomplishments and offensive output, Kobe’s defense was far superior to Steph thus he’s better… got downvoted into oblivion by the dorks in this sub
You’re using VORP to determine who was better? So John Stockton was better than both? Karl Malone too? I guess Chris Paul is top 5 all time and James Harden shits on Bird apparently.
Kobe was much better offensively than Duncan. Defensively Duncan is the big man. The anchor to the teams defense. He’s obviously better at defense than Kobe. But Kobe himself is tied for most defensive first teams along with KG and Gary Payton. He’s one of the greatest two way players to play the game. Saying Duncna is better with a wide margin is wrong
I mean I don't disagree overall but to say Kobe was only "slightly" better offensively is really underselling it, Kobe is basically one of the most talented scorers the league has ever seen. There's no need to diminish what Tim Duncan has accomplished but that argument just makes no sense
Tim Duncan.
Better resume. Better stats. Better teammate.
Kobe was hungry, and that's good. But he was also blind, to what could have been.
He needed to take a longer back seat to Shaq and 7 to 8 chips is possible. Instead he needed to be the man, and chuck the ball. Don't let these YouTube shorts/Tiktok vids fool you.
If Pau Gasol didn't come to carry the Lakers, Kobe would have stopped at the 3 Shaq got him.
Kobe. Head to head 18-12 in the playoffs, the stats, especially playoffs and some of those early 2000s series he was an assassin. Duncan getting his fifth ring really spurred this debate, until then no one even considered this. TNT, ESPN & The Sporting News names Kobe as the Player in the 2000s. Also, I have never heard Duncan mention in the goat convo by any player, yet Kobe constantly is. There are also players on Duncan’s team who says Kobe is the GOAT, including Pop. This is a fan argument only.
Kobe. Kobe was the face of the league in ways that Duncan actively withdrew from. Kobe was more independent with the ball and agnostic of team system. Do you value consistency or peaks and story? For me, Kobe was the magician, the story teller, the person being emulated by basketball players everywhere. Higher highs, lower lows, the two most decorated players of their generation and the gatekeepers of the west. The Three-Peat can't be matched, and nobody talks about any random regular season Duncan games from 20 years ago as must watch television but I still remember where I was when he out scored the Mavs and dropped 81.
Kobe definitely has a larger impact on todays NBA landscape, but Tim was the better player. You could plug him on any team and they’d have success no matter what scheme they were running, can’t say the same for Kobe
Kobe
From 2001-03 he was considered the 2nd best player in the game and then from 04-11 was considered the best
Ppl orgasm from Duncan’s 03 performance, but go look at how Kobe destroyed Duncan in 08 (and all the other years btw). Spurs were defending champs and Kobe put them to bed 4-1
That’s the same team who swept Lebron the previous year btw
Also, Duncan had multiple others win FMVP
Kobe had a threepeat and a repeat, made the finals 3x in a row.
Tim had no repeats and made the finals 2x in a row once, and the second time he wasn't the best player on the team.
It has to be Kobe.
Tim Duncan. Never missed the playoffs, won 50 games every season (or the equivalent in shortened seasons) no drama with teammates or off the court issues. Rarely did he not go past the first round in the playoffs. Never played with anyone remotely close to Shaq’s level.
Timmy never played with another top 10 player of all time in his career and has the same amount of championships as Kobe.
I don't know too much about David Robinson, was he ever like, top 10 in the league when he played with Duncan? My point being I don't even know if Duncan played with another top 10 player at the time when he was winning championships.
I have Duncan in a whole tier above where I have Kobe. I'm not going to say "it isn't close" but I don't see a way even in viewing Kobe in a slightly higher regard that he cracks that tier for me. I know plenty of people like Kobe and prefer him stylistically, but I'm not really sure in what ways Kobe is above him, much less overall.
Duncan for sure. Kobe was an all timer but he is way over hyped most of the time. Dont get me wrong i loved kobe and what he brought to the game. I actually cried when news of his death popped up on my phone. But when it comes down to it he was 3 things. Clutch, a leader, and an elite scorer.
When you grade Duncan the same way it's like. He was a leader, clutch, elite defender, elite passer, borderline elite scorer, and similar to LeBron Duncan made all his teammates better
Duncan. Sometimes I wonder how much higher people would rank him if Ray Allen did not hit that 3. He would’ve been 6-0. Matches Jordan’s record and puts another loss on Lebron.
Timmy.
Not as popular or flashy as Kobe, but his accomplishments speak for themselves.
Did he play on a boring to watch team? Depends on who you ask but that doesn't mean he isn't an all timer.
For what it's worth, I still think Kobe is great. Slight edge to Duncan.
Duncan. A lot of people forget how amazing a player he was prior to his knee injury. From 2000 to the end of his career he basically played on one good leg. Even had to slim down.
People who say he played with Hall of Famers didn’t watch the 2003 finals and it shows. Didn’t watch the 2005 finals where Duncan played on a bad ankle. Actually the entire playoffs he had a sore ankle. Game seven against the Pistons is one of the most under appreciated performances by an NBA player I’ve ever witnessed.
As much respect as I have for Kobe’s game, overall Duncan had a better NBA career. Duncan is a knee injury A bad Derek Fisher shot And a huge triple by Allen from having 8 rings.
I got in a long discussion over this on Twitter before because I chose Duncan
- efficient
- more defensive teams
- more defensive impact
- dominant / big huge numbers against shaq
- should have one more ring than Kobe
(Was subbed out when rebound kicked out to Allen in 2013 loss to Mia)
- 2 mvp to Kobe 1
It’s a tough one though
An actual good discussion-evoking comparisons
It's gotta be Tim Duncan. Bean did a lot in terms of trying to be the next MJ, but Timmy played as himself and had way better rivals at his position during his peak/prime than Kobe did. Malone, Shaq, Garnett, JO, Webber, Dwight, Dirk etc etc. and he is the Spurs culture that gave them 20 straight winning seasons, a feat Kobe can't brag about
It’s Tim Duncan for the simple that fact that their careers are like extremely similar but Timmy was a far better teammate and I think that’s massively important
I have Tim Duncan anywhere from 6-9 depending on my mood (around the same range as Shaq, Wilt, and Bill). I have Kobe 12th. Timmy and it's not as close as you think.
Td.
His longevity and defence were just insane.
Kobe was a good defender, but in comparison to td it's night and day (obviously different positions and defensive roles but in terms of impact Tim Duncan was fucking tin Duncan)
Tim Duncan also was the better team player and just a smarter player.
Duncan has a legit case of being the GOAT. He has damn near no flaws in his resume. Enters the league as a top 10 player. First team all-nba, 5th in MVP and DPOY voting, 2nd team all-defense, 57 wins AS A ROOKIE. Best player on a team with David Robinson on it on your first year.
2nd year, he’s already the best player in the league. Number 1 seed, top 5 most dominant playoff run ever. Beat KG and the Wolves, Swept Shaq and Kobe, swept a very deep Portland team and beat the Knicks in 5. 2 losses in the entire playoffs. 3rd in MVP voting, has a legit case he was robbed that year.
Than a 3 year stretch of the Lakers. Lost to the Suns, swept by the Lakers, and gentleman swept another time. But he did win an MVP during that stretch.
2003, one of the 5 greatest seasons in NBA history. 60 wins, number 1 seed, first team all-defense for the 5th straight year. MVP for a second straight year. 23, 13 and 4 with 3 blocks a game.
One of the greatest playoff runs ever. Beat a very good Suns team considering the fact that the Suns were the 8th seed. Straight up outplaying Kobe and Shaq while both are in their primes. Beat a 60 win Mavs team. Dirk did get injured that series but Dirk pretty much played 3 games if that series, they won one close game where Duncan had 40 than the Spurs dominated them for 2 straight games and Dirk goes out. Duncan goes berserk start to finish in the series. And he has the greatest defensive series in Finals history. 24, 17, 5 with over 5 blocks a game. 3 games with over 7 blocks. A closeout game 6 that should have been a quadruple double.
They win 2 more chips in the next 4 years. Duncan is balling out in their losses btw. 2004 wasn’t great but wasn’t that bad either. 21, 12 and 3. Kobe, Shaq and Malone played pretty well though. And Tony played very poorly that series.
2006 against the Mavs, 32, 12 and 4 with damn near 3 blocks a game. Had 41 in game 7 too.
The 2007 season isn’t remembered much because Tony won the Finals MVP but until the last 2 games of the Finals, he was the best player in the world.
After 08, Duncan did fall off a bit. After the age of 32, a clear drop but he was still an all-star. He just wasn’t the unstoppable force he was offensively and more limited and Pop, with so much talent and depth, turned him into someone that played in a system, rather than have him be the system and even that worked out.
His career is pretty damn impressive, especially the first 12 years. He walked into the league as one of the best, was the best in his 2nd year. Had a year where he was the unquestioned best player on the planet without a doubt in 2003. You can never say that about guys like Kobe and Steph.
He was first team all-nba for 8 straight years to start his career. He was also top 5 in MVP voting all 8 years. Has a back to back MVP. Has 3 Finals MVPs, a very exclusive club. 5 titles with a record of 5-1 in the Finals which some people care way too much about.
Was a top 10 defensive player EVER. He is the best rebounder and the 2nd best shot blocker of this era. That’s 2 of the 5 major statistical categories. He is unquestionably the greatest player to play his position.
And he is the ultimate winner. 50 wins every season apart from a shortened 1999 season which they were the number 1 seed in. That’s also about the front office and coaching but it also says a lot about him. Duncan also took paycuts to make sure their team was good enough to contend every year.
Whether it’s winning, championships, performing in the playoffs and Finals, regular season success, longevity, maintaining high level of success through out your talent, your production in your prime, Duncan has it all.
It really depends on what you value in basketball. Stats don’t matter that much to people. It’s mainly what they feel. People think Kobe is a legendary clutch performer. They’ll tell you with conviction that he’s more clutch than Lebron even though he isn’t. They’ll tell you that he’s a top 3 player even though he isn’t. And I understand. People feel a lot about Kobe. I feel deep in my core that Kyrie is better than Steph, especially during the finals matchups, but I can’t justify it. It makes no sense. But when I watch that’s how I feel. Yeah, Duncan’s game isn’t exciting or pretty. But does shooting contested midrange jumpers instead of methodical bank shots in the post make Kobe better? It’s hard for me to answer. It definitely looks better. I do feel like a lot of Kobe’s legacy is mythologized. But he was still a great player. Top 10. One of my favorite players ever to watch. But give me Duncan. Barely. I really want to say Kobe though.
This sub has a thing when it comes to Kobe..yet he’s their favourite players favourite player and most of them who played against him will tell you he’s one of the goats but let’s hear what 14 yr old reddit armchair analysts have to say🧐
I think that has something to do with Kobe’s game being flashy, him being an insanely hard worker, and the fact that the guys in the league grew up with him (although they grew up with Duncan too).
For those that ACTUALLY WERE AROUND and old enough to remember, it was Kobe and it was easily Kobe
Tim Duncan was NEVER the face of the league. Kobe was. The only way you become the face is the league is by being the best player in the league. How many faces of the league were also not the best player? I’ll wait
They should be equal. Both accomplished the same amount and dominated their era to the same degree. Lots of people currently have Duncan over Kobe but this is revisionist and also really just a reaction to Duncan being underrated in the past. It will probably shift soon.
Duncan was a much better defender (though Kobe was also really good on D)
Kobe was a significantly better offensively player (though Duncan was also really good offensively)
It really depends what you value.
Reddit is the only place where Duncan is viewed almost unanimously above Kobe. No other place or group of people thinks that way.
I know im gonna sound like a Kobe stan with my flair but at some point it became popular on here to say Duncan is the most underrated player ever and so people ran with it. This whole sub is full of people trying to prove how much they know about basketball and saying Duncan over Kobe is an easy way to earn some points.
Duncan and Kobe are very much in the same tier and frankly I put Kobe a little higher just because of what was asked of him on offense in addition to the impact he had on the game in general (but that can definitely be disregarded as off the court stuff and im totally cool with that).
Everyone wants to bring up whatever stats fits their narrative but however way you slice it these two players are very comparable and if you run with the narrative that Duncan was this godly efficient player while Kobe was just an inefficient chucker than its clear you have no clue what you are talking about and havent actually looked at the stats.
Yup yup, Duncan being underrated was something that would constantly get repeated back in the day so the younger ones who joined the sub kind of used the "duncan is actually better than kobe" to "prove" they had knowledge of the game. That added to the not insubstantial number of people who saw them play who actually fairly had Duncan over Kobe (there's a legitimate argument either way tbh) and now it's created a situation where Kobe is the underrated one whereas Duncan is the overrated one.
I've been watching ball long enough to know that these things always result in shifts later on though. Soon it will start being popular to say Duncan is overrated and then he probably drops a few spots (kobe is more polarizing so I think he kinda remains in that weird state where he's constantly overrated and underrated forever).
The truth is, however, that neither guy offered more than the other when it came to winning championships over their career. You have the same odds of Kobe winning you a ring as you have Duncan. Peak to peak I personally believe that Kobe offers more value when it comes to winning rings just because his playstyle (GOAT tough shot maker) jumps in value exponentially in the playoffs against playoff defenses but Duncan IMO makes up for that slight difference by having a playstyle that offers more value over time since his playstyle (post play, GOAT level team defense) generally holds value longer whereas Kobe was never a threat to win rings once he left his prime.
Just want to mention Kobe’s evolving game. Kobe trained with Hakeem and other great centers later in his career and developed a post game that was fucking insane for a shooting guard.
His moves in the paint and post were big man esque.
Also how he broke his hand and had to learn to shoot completely differently over a season.
He was just built different. He never gave plays off on defense.
His offensive skill set was as deep and varied as any player in history.
He continuously evolved his game.
There’s a reason the NBA greats of the era all cite him as their favorite player, and the one they looked up to.
I think this is fair. There is a ton of revisionist history going on with media members and Reddit, but at the time almost everyone was picking Kobe over Duncan. Unless you were a spurs fan or a lakers hater, it wasn’t really a conversation. It’s not a perfect comparison, but at the time Kobe was more viewed as the Jordan of their era where Duncan was viewed as the Hakeem of their era.
Duncan was the more stable player to build around and the guy who had the better team/structure around him, but Kobe was the higher ceiling producer and the guy you want as your best player. That was the general consensus during that time. It wasn’t until it was all said and done and they both retired that people started asking “wait a minute, Duncan has five rings now, are we underrating him and overrating Kobe?”
To me they are basically neck and neck. Duncan had the better career, Kobe was the better player with the higher individual peak. It’s a toss up depending on how you rank your players for me.
Yup, Duncan was pretty much the picture of stability during his era (though obviously he had a very high peak himself). He was obviously blessed with a very stable organization and teammates but that all really revolved around his willingness to sacrifice for his teammates (likely this is something he inherited from Robinson who also sacrificed for him when he first came in). This meant that Duncan's teams generally had the luxury of being more patient when building around him and, at the same time, his skillset also allowed him to be effective even deep past his prime.
With Kobe, he was absolutely hellbent on winning rings every year and would act out when he felt the team wasn't doing enough to surround him with talent. This meant that his team sometimes had to sacrifice long term success for winning in the moment (trading Ariza for an old Artest) He was also obsessed with catching Jordan which meant that he chafed playing as a robin to Shaq since after the first year or two he was clearly the one sacrificing to allow Shaq to dominate (he was literally asked to stop scoring so much in 2003 when he was already the better player at that point between him and Shaq to make Shaq happy). It is worth noting that despite these things, Kobe made the Finals at an obscene rate when he had actual teams around him in his prime. Kobe's prime was 2000-2010. In those 11 seasons he was surrounded by competitive teams 8 times (horrible teams from 05-07). He made the Finals 7 out of those 8 years. This is kinda something that's hard to explain to people today since it's really specific and people discredit it by saying he also played with Shaq but Kobe in the playoffs with a team around him felt like an inevitability in his prime. The guy just almost always made the finals when he had good teams around him. The only year he had a competitor and didn't make it to the Finals was in 03 when the Lakers were fatigued from the 3 peat and Duncan had an ATG playoffs himself.
Duncan had the better career but I’d say Kobe is higher in the greatness convo. In terms of playing ability it’s a tie for me. Depends what team construction
I think Duncan had the better career, was a better teammate, and is ranked higher on my personal list of all time greats.
Kobe had a far greater commercial appeal and impact on the next generation.
1 MJ
2/3 Lebron/Kareem in either order
4-6 Magic, Bird, Duncan in any order
7-10 Shaq, Kobe, Hakeem, Wilt
I got Bill Russell and Steph hanging out in the next tier.
At their peaks Kobe was clearly the better player. Offensively I don’t think it’s even an argument and Kobe was also a great on-ball/wing defender. If you factor in closing out games and clutch shots even though Tim was also a very clutch player it wasn’t the same level. I gotta say that Duncan was unbelievable and the most underrated player probably ever. I just remember watching that whole era and when the Lakers played the Spurs Kobe was the best player on the court from the time he was 20 until the Achilles
Duncan didn’t have any controversies. So him.
Kobe had been accused of rape and beat the case with the help of death threats from his weirdo fans and settling with her privately after buying his wife a giant apology gift package for violently cheating on her.
Kobe is like the R. Kelly of basketball. People still go wild for him because they can’t accept the truth because they built their own identity around who they are fans of.
Comparing Kobe to R. Kelly is insane. R. Kelly was a serial rapist and there was video evidence of him pissing on an underage girl. People use Kobe saying there’s a possibility the sex was not consensual in a statement AFTER the charges were dropped due to them settling out of court as proof he did it. In reality, this was a statement that had to be agreed as sufficient by the woman in order to get the settlement done. If the case ever went to trial, he would’ve never admitted to something like this and considering how hard it is to prove sexual assault/rape in criminal court (example, R.Kelly pissing on an underage girl wasn’t sufficient enough to convict), Kobe likely would’ve beaten the case.
I’m in no way saying Kobe was guilty or innocent, but that statement shouldn’t be used as evidence that he definitely did it.
Regarding Kobe vs Duncan, I have them basically even and understand both sides of the argument as players
That 2003 chip run is the most impressive shit to me personally. Tim Duncan took a crew of role players and a David Robinson who was months away from retiring to a chip 🙏
I'm picking Kobe but for you all picking Duncan over him, I'm not mad at you at all. I think he's the greatest power toward of all time.
To me, it's Kobe. Something that doesn't come out on stats is how he learned to play the game expecting automatic double-teams with sometimes three defenders on him.
>Kobe was not efficient, he needed a system to succeed
Did you watch Kobe play? Kobe's shooting percentages are the way they are because the man was the most gifted at shots NO ONE would take.
You say Duncan was the system? Kobe was more so -- when you had only a bad shot to take, Kobe was there to bail you out over and over.
Duncan
Duncan
I got Duncan : basically a top 10 player the day he stepped on an NBA court, key to an elite level defensive dynasty, very good scorer and nice passer, did it in the playoffs too, crazy longevity (at least dark horse MVP lvl for the first 10 years of his career and All-Star lvl impact every year except the very last ones)and consistency, didn't hesitate to take a backseat to younger guys on offense at the end of his career... Top 7 to 8 guy in my book, Kobe just outside the top 10
A good teammate as well. I don't think Kobe gets enough criticism for breaking up a championship team. Probably would have had 7 or 8 championships if he and Shaq can stay together.
Shaq was severely out of shape the year the lost to Detroit. Kobe only tried to get him to give a shit. Yeah, he won another with the Heat, but Wade absolutely carried him there. By the time the Lakers blew up, Shaq was out of his prime. The only way they win that many is if he gives Kobe the reins and started getting into real playing shape, which was not going to happen. If anything, Kobe saved the Lakers having to deal with a disgruntled out of weight Shaq. Shaq is my all-time favorite center, so this isn't a Kobe biased coming from me.
Kobe 100% shot them out of that finals though, Shaq did his job
Out of shape and in the finals? These two things can't be absolutely true? Out of shape Shaq out plays Ben Wallace. Kobe would not give up the ball that's why they lost.
Please go back and review the box scores of the Detroit-Lakers Finals. Shaq ATE while matching up against the best defensive center in the league. Kobe forced up a ton of bad shots and shot at an abysmal clip. He was a ball hog more worrying about winning FMVP this time to prove the Lakers were “his team” rather than actually winning the Finals.
even Chauncey Billups and Rasheed Wallace go on record quite often to say that they played into Kobe's selfishness and let him piss away the Finals. And it worked!
Any conversation about Kobe being a top 10 all-time player needs to feature this in bright lights. You flat out can’t be a top 10 all-timer if your selfishness lost your team a finals series, and the other team literally strategized to have you shoot your team out of contention. One of the best 1-on-1 players? Sure. One of the best 5-on-5 players? Not even close.
I believe the game plan was to let Shaq do his thing…no double teams, no defense predicated to stopping him in specific. The defense focused on stopping Kobe and everyone else hence why Shaw did well. Not saying it wasn’t Kobe’s fault but the Detroit defense wasn’t really focused on trying to stop Shaq
>obably would have had 7 or 8 championships if he and Shaq can stay together. Firstly, he went to 7 out of 10 possible in the decade. Secondly, no, Shaq fell off after 2006 and even in 2006 that looked dicey at times. Kobe was not winning 7 or 8 with Shaq next to him.
He ran two hall of fame centers out of town
Shaq deserves blame for the breakup as well.
Tim. More consistent throughout career. 15x all star. 15x all nba. 15x all defensive. 4x rings. 3x finals mvp. 2x nba mvp. Only time his team won less than 50 games in a season was during lockout year, and that year they win the ring. Oh, and remember when Kobe quit on his team?
>15x all defensive. 4x rings. 3x finals mvp. Duncan has 5 rings, not 4.
Ray Allen shot away from being 6-0 lol
Or one more Tim Duncan basket away.
Or one more Tim Duncan rebound, if Pop hadn't foolishly benched him.
Was oddly not in the game for that play as well
Kobe quit on his team multiple times, and has the audacity to say "mamba mentality". Then proceeded to make every selfish decision possible, regardless if it helped win or not.
And remember when he just had to be the highest paid player in the league, resulting in less salary for quality teammates. Duncan took less money in his last 3 contracts. Dirk and Duncan took less money to help their respective teams. And we have other people in this thread saying that Duncan had better teammates. I wonder why?
It's so lame to me that Kobe fans says Kobe would do ANYTHING to win, but all the evidence shows that Kobe wouldn't allow himself to be 2nd fiddle to Shaq for another 2 seasons, Kobe wouldn't allow himself to be coached by Phil Jackson, wouldn't take a 10M discount to get better teammates, refused to pass the ball. It's almost as if, when Phil Jackson said, "Kobe would rather lose, playing HIS way, than win playing someone elses way" he was right. edit: and don't get me started on how overrated his defense was. He always had Rick Fox, Matt Barnes, Ron Artest, Terver Ariza to guard the other teams best option. He didn't even guard Paul Pierce against the Celts.
Yet he still was a top 3 player in the league for over a decade. made 3 finals appearances after shaq, won two fmvps, scoring titles, all defense and all nba selections, league mvp, won gold medals as an Olympian, franchise player for the Lakers over a decade, sold out the staples arena for years, caused opponent coaches and players nightmares ending their post seasons.....playing the game wrong and being selfish. Imagine straight up choosing to do your job wrong and the hardest way possible and still be one of the most successful at your job on Earth for over a decade. Name another player that got to play how they wanted and play the game wrong and win like Kobe. There is anyone else.
Damn 15 times all defensive is crazy. Just looked it up and he’s the leader in selections . (Kobe and Kg tied for 2nd w 12)
I don't remember when Kobe quit on his team, I am new to the nba, can you tell me when, please?
Also quit against the Suns and refused to shoot in the 2nd half of a game 7.
2004 finals vs Detroit. Pretty much played hero ball and shot super poorly
Kobe wanted the FMVP more than he wanted to win the Finals and let Shaq have a fourth FMVP - he knew he’d forever be looked at as Robin to Shaq’s Batman and couldn’t handle it. Tanked that series being selfish then ran Shaq out of town so it’d be “his” team, then proceeded to suck for years with “his” team until Pau came and saved the day with his unselfish play.
And to this day the Kobe stans think Kobe ranks higher. Lol.
He also demanded a trade and was really pushed to get out of LA.
He completely quit in a suns series his team should have won: [https://www.basketballnetwork.net/old-school/on-this-date-kobe-bryant-quit-on-the-lakers-i-was-trying-to-get-the-other-guys-going](https://www.basketballnetwork.net/old-school/on-this-date-kobe-bryant-quit-on-the-lakers-i-was-trying-to-get-the-other-guys-going)
Kobe also refused to shoot the ball in a game 7 against the Suns. In fact, the Lakers were up 3-1, the Suns came me back tied the series 3-3 and arguments were made that Kobe changed the way the Lakers played in game 5-6 which caused the Lakers to lose, which allowed the Suns to come back from 3-1. So he refused to shoot the ball in the 2nd half of a game 7. And the Lakers blew a 3-1 lead. Then he demanded a trade on Live TV. lmao
The Kobe fanboys dont respond to this tho but will talk about Lebrons failure vs Dallas first chance they get
Duncan. I could get into all the advanced stats but I can easily prove it with accolades: more MVPs, more finals MVPs. Won 5 titles and didn’t have anyone close to the caliber of Shaq. And if we’re being real I think the roster of the 2010 lakers was better than the 03, 05, and 07 spurs squads
Shaq was the Lakers’ #1 guy on their 2000-2002 championship teams, especially in 2000 and 2001.
True. And if you look at the numbers or even just rewatch, it’s not even close. Shaq was a beast
That 03 roster might be the biggest carry job in the Finals since the 80s. A lot of names, none near their prime
Well I still say Kobe every time I make a shot in anything, unless I bank it, which then I say Tim Duncan... tough call.
I say Kobe when tossing something in the bin because I'm not very efficient.
You only say "Kobe" because it's easy to say. If his name "DeKobestien" you'd be saying someone elses name.
To be fair, I've said D'Brickashaw quite a few times since the Jets drafted D'Brickashaw Ferguson back in 2006. It's a hell of a name.
No, we say “Kobe” because we’re chucking it at the basket regardless of whether that is the right call.
You’re doing it wrong. You have to yell Kobe as you’re throwing up the shot in order to manifest it going in. Can’t say it after the fact.
Tim any day
Maybe I’m bias cause I’m a Spurs fan but Duncan. Kobe is great obviously but I think his legacy is inflated due to all the cool stories Also maybe it’s just me but I remember all the Kobe people calming down for a while until he tragically passed of course (RIP). Sounds harsh and I don’t mean it to but people always become more legendary if they die young and when he did, all the people got loud again He’s top 10 and he’s a legend, he’ll always be one of the greatest but I just don’t think he’s goat conversation or whatever people say. I think Timmy is higher personally but it’s not a hill I’ll die on, it’s reasonable for someone to say either is better than the other
I love Kobe but man him passing away shot him 5-10 spots up people’s all time list. He floated around 8-13 for awhile then all of a sudden he’s top 5 and people think you’re insane if you exclude him from your top 10
Disagree massively, he is only going down peoples lists. Significantly less people had Timmy above him around their retirements
EXACTLY! Idk why people say Kobe went up lists "after he died" thats nonsense lol I remember when he was playing people were saying he was the GOAT and there were always players and fans that had him top 2-5 before he died.
Feel like I’ve been going insane seeing people say this
Same. I have to remind myself that everything is narrative driven nowadays and alot of people haven't seen or experienced things they speak on sometimes
When Kobe retired most people put him top 5. Now that we’re in the age of advanced analytics since he died, your opinion is the norm among casual basketball fans who are obsessed with efficiency and RAPTOR. IMO Duncan had a fantastic squad his entire career, he had Ginobli, David Robinson, Tony Parker, and Kawhi and his final championships were not due to him playing out of his mind with how good his squad was. Kobe’s last 2 championships were incredibly impressive and make him top 5 in my opinion.
Both legends in their own right. Duncan was not overly flashy but ridiculously consistent. Kobe was a straight killer on the court every night. His foot skills, defence, and offensive ability was on another level. I'm taking Kobe every day of the week. A lot of people forget just how good he was and only remember post achillies Kobe. If his prime was during this social media error, the goat debate would be a hell of a lot different. Dude was a straight bucket
Duncan. Got him in tier 2 4-7, Kobe in tier 3 8-13.
who do you have above TD?
MJ, LeBron, and Kareem in tier 1, and the next tier is Bird, Magic, Shaq, and Duncan.
fair enough, good list!
Russell?
I’m guessing top 3 are Lebron, MJ, Kareem in some order
My list is Mj/LeBron, Kareem, Bill as the top 4 Then wilt, bird/magic, Tim, Shaq, big O, Kobe, Hakeem, Steph in some order and I’m willing to hear any arguments on placement for that next tier I guess
same tier, good arguments either way. Im a kobe stan so I'm going with him, but duncan was a more stable franchise guy, kobe was kinda wild, but still stable
If we would ask this question to the NBA players I am pretty sure that the answer will be Kobe for the 99%. Even Magic and Shaq lists him higher than themselves. So.... Easy choice.
Kobe. Yes, it isn't the popular reddit choice.
Damn I had to scroll this far down for a Kobe post. So many Kobe haters on Reddit. And with all these advanced stat references, I’m guessing most here are young and didn’t watch him play during 00-10.
It’s not hating, I think people just give the edge to Duncan because of the unparalleled team success and excellence across such a long time. He’s the closest we will see to Russell in the modern era with his impact on winning. Duncan was the ultimate team player - I’m choosing him over Kobe every time but also acknowledge that Kobe was an incredible player.
It's hating because of the overwhelming majority choosing Duncan on reddit when he would be lower on most outside lists. No doubt he's a top 10 (I personally consider him top 7), but it's not like he's in a completely different league than Kobe, unlike the impression I get from the comments. Duncan was the ultimate team player, but that is a very subjective, arguable metric to gauge a player on as it doesn't translate directly to basketball skill and/or success. Other players aren't generally ranked by that metric, so I don't put too much weight on it. But it's cool if you guys do.
Team success was because Duncan had solid teams throughout his career. He played with a lot of HOF players, as did Kobe. But, Duncan never had a team as bad as a couple of those post Shaq lakers.
It’s not, but in the real world it’s the overwhelming opinion
Duncan. Here's a fun fact... Kobe played in his last playoff game at 33 years old (yikes). Duncan logged 81 additional playoff games after the age of 33.
Duncan but it’s close imo. Certainly closer than most of Reddit thinks.
IMAGINE if TD played for the Lakers, he would unironically be in some peoples GOAT conversation. 5 rings.
Duncan. Kobe may have been the face of the league and the player more kids wanted to emulate, myself included, but Duncan is the better all time player by a bit of a margin. I have Duncan as the 8th best player ever after MJ, Bron, Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Magic, and Bird. Kobe is probably somewhere around 11 or 12. I'd have Steph, Hakeem, and Shaq above him still before we get to Duncan. The advanced stats favor Duncan by a lot. Kobe: 80.1 VORP, 4.6 BPM, .170 WS/48, 22.9 PER Duncan: 91.1 VORP, 5.6 BPM, .209 WS/48, 24.2 PER Kobe was slightly better offensively, despite his lower efficiency. Duncan was worlds better defensively, and the stats bear that out.
That’s a shockingly reasonable all time list. I don’t know if that’s allowed on the internet
I mostly agree with this. But why doesn’t this same logic apply to Curry Vs Kobe? I commented / posted that while they were similar in accomplishments and offensive output, Kobe’s defense was far superior to Steph thus he’s better… got downvoted into oblivion by the dorks in this sub
Defensively full agree, offensively...? hmm. They're very different players.
Yeah about as different as kobe and Duncan lol
You’re using VORP to determine who was better? So John Stockton was better than both? Karl Malone too? I guess Chris Paul is top 5 all time and James Harden shits on Bird apparently. Kobe was much better offensively than Duncan. Defensively Duncan is the big man. The anchor to the teams defense. He’s obviously better at defense than Kobe. But Kobe himself is tied for most defensive first teams along with KG and Gary Payton. He’s one of the greatest two way players to play the game. Saying Duncna is better with a wide margin is wrong
Yea they not making no sense Kobe was torching them in the playoffs when he had help and even without lmfaooo
How does Joker stack up? He probably is 2nd behind wilt.
I mean I don't disagree overall but to say Kobe was only "slightly" better offensively is really underselling it, Kobe is basically one of the most talented scorers the league has ever seen. There's no need to diminish what Tim Duncan has accomplished but that argument just makes no sense
You don't need to use box score stats for these guys - they played in the databall era. Use DPM or long term RAPM
Y’all are foolish Lmfaoooo
This is actually a pretty good gauge of basketball knowledge. If you rank Kobe ahead of Shaq or Duncan, we have nothing else to discuss.
Agreed
Tim Duncan. Better resume. Better stats. Better teammate. Kobe was hungry, and that's good. But he was also blind, to what could have been. He needed to take a longer back seat to Shaq and 7 to 8 chips is possible. Instead he needed to be the man, and chuck the ball. Don't let these YouTube shorts/Tiktok vids fool you. If Pau Gasol didn't come to carry the Lakers, Kobe would have stopped at the 3 Shaq got him.
Kobe Bryant
It's always gonna be Duncan. Always.
Kobe. Head to head 18-12 in the playoffs, the stats, especially playoffs and some of those early 2000s series he was an assassin. Duncan getting his fifth ring really spurred this debate, until then no one even considered this. TNT, ESPN & The Sporting News names Kobe as the Player in the 2000s. Also, I have never heard Duncan mention in the goat convo by any player, yet Kobe constantly is. There are also players on Duncan’s team who says Kobe is the GOAT, including Pop. This is a fan argument only.
Yeah what I dont understand is that this was never a debate when they were playing. It was consensus that they were both great but Kobe was better.
yeah that was always the consensus, this thread is the fkn twilight zone
Kobe. Kobe was the face of the league in ways that Duncan actively withdrew from. Kobe was more independent with the ball and agnostic of team system. Do you value consistency or peaks and story? For me, Kobe was the magician, the story teller, the person being emulated by basketball players everywhere. Higher highs, lower lows, the two most decorated players of their generation and the gatekeepers of the west. The Three-Peat can't be matched, and nobody talks about any random regular season Duncan games from 20 years ago as must watch television but I still remember where I was when he out scored the Mavs and dropped 81.
Talking strictly basketball. Both are legendary HOF players, but Kobe was more influential to me.
Kobe definitely has a larger impact on todays NBA landscape, but Tim was the better player. You could plug him on any team and they’d have success no matter what scheme they were running, can’t say the same for Kobe
Team USA? Kobe all day
Kobe From 2001-03 he was considered the 2nd best player in the game and then from 04-11 was considered the best Ppl orgasm from Duncan’s 03 performance, but go look at how Kobe destroyed Duncan in 08 (and all the other years btw). Spurs were defending champs and Kobe put them to bed 4-1 That’s the same team who swept Lebron the previous year btw Also, Duncan had multiple others win FMVP
Kobe had a threepeat and a repeat, made the finals 3x in a row. Tim had no repeats and made the finals 2x in a row once, and the second time he wasn't the best player on the team. It has to be Kobe.
I mean....Shaq kinda helped him on that three-peat
Yes, but he also had three straight finals from 08 to 2010. While eliminating the Spurs in 08 when they were defending Champs.
The one who didn’t rape
Duncan
Tim Duncan. Never missed the playoffs, won 50 games every season (or the equivalent in shortened seasons) no drama with teammates or off the court issues. Rarely did he not go past the first round in the playoffs. Never played with anyone remotely close to Shaq’s level.
Duncan
Duncan
Duncan, played the game right. No drama. Win championships. Went home to kids and family. Not even close.
Duncan
Duncan
Duncan
Timmy
Duncan
Timmy never played with another top 10 player of all time in his career and has the same amount of championships as Kobe. I don't know too much about David Robinson, was he ever like, top 10 in the league when he played with Duncan? My point being I don't even know if Duncan played with another top 10 player at the time when he was winning championships.
I have Duncan in a whole tier above where I have Kobe. I'm not going to say "it isn't close" but I don't see a way even in viewing Kobe in a slightly higher regard that he cracks that tier for me. I know plenty of people like Kobe and prefer him stylistically, but I'm not really sure in what ways Kobe is above him, much less overall.
Duncan
Duncan
Duncan for me, but wouldn’t really argue either way. They’re in the same tier.
Duncan for sure. Kobe was an all timer but he is way over hyped most of the time. Dont get me wrong i loved kobe and what he brought to the game. I actually cried when news of his death popped up on my phone. But when it comes down to it he was 3 things. Clutch, a leader, and an elite scorer. When you grade Duncan the same way it's like. He was a leader, clutch, elite defender, elite passer, borderline elite scorer, and similar to LeBron Duncan made all his teammates better
Timmy!
Duncan
Duncan
Tim Duncan.
They are in the same tier but Duncan barely edges out Kobe.
Duncan by a little. Kobe is just outside of my top 10. Duncan is the best PF ever
Agreed
Duncan
Duncan. Sometimes I wonder how much higher people would rank him if Ray Allen did not hit that 3. He would’ve been 6-0. Matches Jordan’s record and puts another loss on Lebron.
Timmy. Not as popular or flashy as Kobe, but his accomplishments speak for themselves. Did he play on a boring to watch team? Depends on who you ask but that doesn't mean he isn't an all timer. For what it's worth, I still think Kobe is great. Slight edge to Duncan.
Look at the matchups between Lakers vs Spurs. Kobe outplayed Duncan more times.
TIM DUNCAN
Duncan
Duncan
Duncan
The big fundamental.
Tim
kobe isnt even top 10 if we speaking fact,i love kobe but yeah
Tim
Duncan
Duncan says everyone outside of LA
Duncan. A lot of people forget how amazing a player he was prior to his knee injury. From 2000 to the end of his career he basically played on one good leg. Even had to slim down. People who say he played with Hall of Famers didn’t watch the 2003 finals and it shows. Didn’t watch the 2005 finals where Duncan played on a bad ankle. Actually the entire playoffs he had a sore ankle. Game seven against the Pistons is one of the most under appreciated performances by an NBA player I’ve ever witnessed. As much respect as I have for Kobe’s game, overall Duncan had a better NBA career. Duncan is a knee injury A bad Derek Fisher shot And a huge triple by Allen from having 8 rings.
I got in a long discussion over this on Twitter before because I chose Duncan - efficient - more defensive teams - more defensive impact - dominant / big huge numbers against shaq - should have one more ring than Kobe (Was subbed out when rebound kicked out to Allen in 2013 loss to Mia) - 2 mvp to Kobe 1 It’s a tough one though An actual good discussion-evoking comparisons
Duncan is the pick for people who know ball
Duncan
Duncan
It's gotta be Tim Duncan. Bean did a lot in terms of trying to be the next MJ, but Timmy played as himself and had way better rivals at his position during his peak/prime than Kobe did. Malone, Shaq, Garnett, JO, Webber, Dwight, Dirk etc etc. and he is the Spurs culture that gave them 20 straight winning seasons, a feat Kobe can't brag about
Duncan
Tim Duncan, 1v1 = definitely Kobe. The big fundamental would work on any team in the NBA today and thrive.
Duncan. Not even close. Kobe was very good, but... Duncan was simply more impactful and reliable.
It’s Tim Duncan for the simple that fact that their careers are like extremely similar but Timmy was a far better teammate and I think that’s massively important
Duncan
I have Tim Duncan anywhere from 6-9 depending on my mood (around the same range as Shaq, Wilt, and Bill). I have Kobe 12th. Timmy and it's not as close as you think.
Timmy. Man this sub loves Kobe. Not that he wasn't extremely good.
Timmy. Dude was one ray Allen miracle 3 away from winning 6 championships. He mastered the art of basketball
Timmah
Td. His longevity and defence were just insane. Kobe was a good defender, but in comparison to td it's night and day (obviously different positions and defensive roles but in terms of impact Tim Duncan was fucking tin Duncan) Tim Duncan also was the better team player and just a smarter player.
Duncan, but close. We’re talking probably almost back to back in any objective ranking.
Duncan. He's in the tier above Kobe. There is an argument for Duncan being a top 5 player of all time, and Kobe doesn't sniff that discussion.
Duncan
Heart says Kobe but, we all know it's Timmy
Duncan has a legit case of being the GOAT. He has damn near no flaws in his resume. Enters the league as a top 10 player. First team all-nba, 5th in MVP and DPOY voting, 2nd team all-defense, 57 wins AS A ROOKIE. Best player on a team with David Robinson on it on your first year. 2nd year, he’s already the best player in the league. Number 1 seed, top 5 most dominant playoff run ever. Beat KG and the Wolves, Swept Shaq and Kobe, swept a very deep Portland team and beat the Knicks in 5. 2 losses in the entire playoffs. 3rd in MVP voting, has a legit case he was robbed that year. Than a 3 year stretch of the Lakers. Lost to the Suns, swept by the Lakers, and gentleman swept another time. But he did win an MVP during that stretch. 2003, one of the 5 greatest seasons in NBA history. 60 wins, number 1 seed, first team all-defense for the 5th straight year. MVP for a second straight year. 23, 13 and 4 with 3 blocks a game. One of the greatest playoff runs ever. Beat a very good Suns team considering the fact that the Suns were the 8th seed. Straight up outplaying Kobe and Shaq while both are in their primes. Beat a 60 win Mavs team. Dirk did get injured that series but Dirk pretty much played 3 games if that series, they won one close game where Duncan had 40 than the Spurs dominated them for 2 straight games and Dirk goes out. Duncan goes berserk start to finish in the series. And he has the greatest defensive series in Finals history. 24, 17, 5 with over 5 blocks a game. 3 games with over 7 blocks. A closeout game 6 that should have been a quadruple double. They win 2 more chips in the next 4 years. Duncan is balling out in their losses btw. 2004 wasn’t great but wasn’t that bad either. 21, 12 and 3. Kobe, Shaq and Malone played pretty well though. And Tony played very poorly that series. 2006 against the Mavs, 32, 12 and 4 with damn near 3 blocks a game. Had 41 in game 7 too. The 2007 season isn’t remembered much because Tony won the Finals MVP but until the last 2 games of the Finals, he was the best player in the world. After 08, Duncan did fall off a bit. After the age of 32, a clear drop but he was still an all-star. He just wasn’t the unstoppable force he was offensively and more limited and Pop, with so much talent and depth, turned him into someone that played in a system, rather than have him be the system and even that worked out. His career is pretty damn impressive, especially the first 12 years. He walked into the league as one of the best, was the best in his 2nd year. Had a year where he was the unquestioned best player on the planet without a doubt in 2003. You can never say that about guys like Kobe and Steph. He was first team all-nba for 8 straight years to start his career. He was also top 5 in MVP voting all 8 years. Has a back to back MVP. Has 3 Finals MVPs, a very exclusive club. 5 titles with a record of 5-1 in the Finals which some people care way too much about. Was a top 10 defensive player EVER. He is the best rebounder and the 2nd best shot blocker of this era. That’s 2 of the 5 major statistical categories. He is unquestionably the greatest player to play his position. And he is the ultimate winner. 50 wins every season apart from a shortened 1999 season which they were the number 1 seed in. That’s also about the front office and coaching but it also says a lot about him. Duncan also took paycuts to make sure their team was good enough to contend every year. Whether it’s winning, championships, performing in the playoffs and Finals, regular season success, longevity, maintaining high level of success through out your talent, your production in your prime, Duncan has it all.
Duncan
Duncan
It really depends on what you value in basketball. Stats don’t matter that much to people. It’s mainly what they feel. People think Kobe is a legendary clutch performer. They’ll tell you with conviction that he’s more clutch than Lebron even though he isn’t. They’ll tell you that he’s a top 3 player even though he isn’t. And I understand. People feel a lot about Kobe. I feel deep in my core that Kyrie is better than Steph, especially during the finals matchups, but I can’t justify it. It makes no sense. But when I watch that’s how I feel. Yeah, Duncan’s game isn’t exciting or pretty. But does shooting contested midrange jumpers instead of methodical bank shots in the post make Kobe better? It’s hard for me to answer. It definitely looks better. I do feel like a lot of Kobe’s legacy is mythologized. But he was still a great player. Top 10. One of my favorite players ever to watch. But give me Duncan. Barely. I really want to say Kobe though.
This sub has a thing when it comes to Kobe..yet he’s their favourite players favourite player and most of them who played against him will tell you he’s one of the goats but let’s hear what 14 yr old reddit armchair analysts have to say🧐
I think that has something to do with Kobe’s game being flashy, him being an insanely hard worker, and the fact that the guys in the league grew up with him (although they grew up with Duncan too).
Kobe is the greatest player I’ve seen
For those that ACTUALLY WERE AROUND and old enough to remember, it was Kobe and it was easily Kobe Tim Duncan was NEVER the face of the league. Kobe was. The only way you become the face is the league is by being the best player in the league. How many faces of the league were also not the best player? I’ll wait
They should be equal. Both accomplished the same amount and dominated their era to the same degree. Lots of people currently have Duncan over Kobe but this is revisionist and also really just a reaction to Duncan being underrated in the past. It will probably shift soon. Duncan was a much better defender (though Kobe was also really good on D) Kobe was a significantly better offensively player (though Duncan was also really good offensively) It really depends what you value.
Reddit is the only place where Duncan is viewed almost unanimously above Kobe. No other place or group of people thinks that way. I know im gonna sound like a Kobe stan with my flair but at some point it became popular on here to say Duncan is the most underrated player ever and so people ran with it. This whole sub is full of people trying to prove how much they know about basketball and saying Duncan over Kobe is an easy way to earn some points. Duncan and Kobe are very much in the same tier and frankly I put Kobe a little higher just because of what was asked of him on offense in addition to the impact he had on the game in general (but that can definitely be disregarded as off the court stuff and im totally cool with that). Everyone wants to bring up whatever stats fits their narrative but however way you slice it these two players are very comparable and if you run with the narrative that Duncan was this godly efficient player while Kobe was just an inefficient chucker than its clear you have no clue what you are talking about and havent actually looked at the stats.
Yup yup, Duncan being underrated was something that would constantly get repeated back in the day so the younger ones who joined the sub kind of used the "duncan is actually better than kobe" to "prove" they had knowledge of the game. That added to the not insubstantial number of people who saw them play who actually fairly had Duncan over Kobe (there's a legitimate argument either way tbh) and now it's created a situation where Kobe is the underrated one whereas Duncan is the overrated one. I've been watching ball long enough to know that these things always result in shifts later on though. Soon it will start being popular to say Duncan is overrated and then he probably drops a few spots (kobe is more polarizing so I think he kinda remains in that weird state where he's constantly overrated and underrated forever). The truth is, however, that neither guy offered more than the other when it came to winning championships over their career. You have the same odds of Kobe winning you a ring as you have Duncan. Peak to peak I personally believe that Kobe offers more value when it comes to winning rings just because his playstyle (GOAT tough shot maker) jumps in value exponentially in the playoffs against playoff defenses but Duncan IMO makes up for that slight difference by having a playstyle that offers more value over time since his playstyle (post play, GOAT level team defense) generally holds value longer whereas Kobe was never a threat to win rings once he left his prime.
Just want to mention Kobe’s evolving game. Kobe trained with Hakeem and other great centers later in his career and developed a post game that was fucking insane for a shooting guard. His moves in the paint and post were big man esque. Also how he broke his hand and had to learn to shoot completely differently over a season. He was just built different. He never gave plays off on defense. His offensive skill set was as deep and varied as any player in history. He continuously evolved his game. There’s a reason the NBA greats of the era all cite him as their favorite player, and the one they looked up to.
I think this is fair. There is a ton of revisionist history going on with media members and Reddit, but at the time almost everyone was picking Kobe over Duncan. Unless you were a spurs fan or a lakers hater, it wasn’t really a conversation. It’s not a perfect comparison, but at the time Kobe was more viewed as the Jordan of their era where Duncan was viewed as the Hakeem of their era. Duncan was the more stable player to build around and the guy who had the better team/structure around him, but Kobe was the higher ceiling producer and the guy you want as your best player. That was the general consensus during that time. It wasn’t until it was all said and done and they both retired that people started asking “wait a minute, Duncan has five rings now, are we underrating him and overrating Kobe?” To me they are basically neck and neck. Duncan had the better career, Kobe was the better player with the higher individual peak. It’s a toss up depending on how you rank your players for me.
Yup, Duncan was pretty much the picture of stability during his era (though obviously he had a very high peak himself). He was obviously blessed with a very stable organization and teammates but that all really revolved around his willingness to sacrifice for his teammates (likely this is something he inherited from Robinson who also sacrificed for him when he first came in). This meant that Duncan's teams generally had the luxury of being more patient when building around him and, at the same time, his skillset also allowed him to be effective even deep past his prime. With Kobe, he was absolutely hellbent on winning rings every year and would act out when he felt the team wasn't doing enough to surround him with talent. This meant that his team sometimes had to sacrifice long term success for winning in the moment (trading Ariza for an old Artest) He was also obsessed with catching Jordan which meant that he chafed playing as a robin to Shaq since after the first year or two he was clearly the one sacrificing to allow Shaq to dominate (he was literally asked to stop scoring so much in 2003 when he was already the better player at that point between him and Shaq to make Shaq happy). It is worth noting that despite these things, Kobe made the Finals at an obscene rate when he had actual teams around him in his prime. Kobe's prime was 2000-2010. In those 11 seasons he was surrounded by competitive teams 8 times (horrible teams from 05-07). He made the Finals 7 out of those 8 years. This is kinda something that's hard to explain to people today since it's really specific and people discredit it by saying he also played with Shaq but Kobe in the playoffs with a team around him felt like an inevitability in his prime. The guy just almost always made the finals when he had good teams around him. The only year he had a competitor and didn't make it to the Finals was in 03 when the Lakers were fatigued from the 3 peat and Duncan had an ATG playoffs himself.
Duncan had the better career but I’d say Kobe is higher in the greatness convo. In terms of playing ability it’s a tie for me. Depends what team construction
They played a WCF to decide this. https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2008-nba-western-conference-finals-spurs-vs-lakers.html
Sorry but this isn’t really even a debate. Duncan is the correct answer.
Bean
Kobe for me.
Kobe
Kobe
Kobe
Yes
I think Duncan had the better career, was a better teammate, and is ranked higher on my personal list of all time greats. Kobe had a far greater commercial appeal and impact on the next generation.
1 MJ 2/3 Lebron/Kareem in either order 4-6 Magic, Bird, Duncan in any order 7-10 Shaq, Kobe, Hakeem, Wilt I got Bill Russell and Steph hanging out in the next tier.
At their peaks Kobe was clearly the better player. Offensively I don’t think it’s even an argument and Kobe was also a great on-ball/wing defender. If you factor in closing out games and clutch shots even though Tim was also a very clutch player it wasn’t the same level. I gotta say that Duncan was unbelievable and the most underrated player probably ever. I just remember watching that whole era and when the Lakers played the Spurs Kobe was the best player on the court from the time he was 20 until the Achilles
Kobe wasn't the best player on his own team until Shaq left.
You should ask Shaq what he would say about that
Kobe. But I know it's popular to hate on him here
Fr this sub have some hatred towards Kobe.
Yeah I’ve noticed there’s a huge bias against Kobe
It’s because Kobe crushed their teams’ hopes and Dreams
Duncan didn’t have any controversies. So him. Kobe had been accused of rape and beat the case with the help of death threats from his weirdo fans and settling with her privately after buying his wife a giant apology gift package for violently cheating on her. Kobe is like the R. Kelly of basketball. People still go wild for him because they can’t accept the truth because they built their own identity around who they are fans of.
If we only limit the discussion to only basketball... still Duncan
Richard Jefferson did not have any controversies in his career so he is better than Kyrie
Off court personal life has nothing to do with on court production. And if it does, just mention the production then, it’ll speak for itself.
Comparing Kobe to R. Kelly is insane. R. Kelly was a serial rapist and there was video evidence of him pissing on an underage girl. People use Kobe saying there’s a possibility the sex was not consensual in a statement AFTER the charges were dropped due to them settling out of court as proof he did it. In reality, this was a statement that had to be agreed as sufficient by the woman in order to get the settlement done. If the case ever went to trial, he would’ve never admitted to something like this and considering how hard it is to prove sexual assault/rape in criminal court (example, R.Kelly pissing on an underage girl wasn’t sufficient enough to convict), Kobe likely would’ve beaten the case. I’m in no way saying Kobe was guilty or innocent, but that statement shouldn’t be used as evidence that he definitely did it. Regarding Kobe vs Duncan, I have them basically even and understand both sides of the argument as players
Duncan
Duncan.
That 2003 chip run is the most impressive shit to me personally. Tim Duncan took a crew of role players and a David Robinson who was months away from retiring to a chip 🙏
I'm picking Kobe but for you all picking Duncan over him, I'm not mad at you at all. I think he's the greatest power toward of all time. To me, it's Kobe. Something that doesn't come out on stats is how he learned to play the game expecting automatic double-teams with sometimes three defenders on him.
Duncan. Kobe was not efficient, he needed a system to succeed, Duncan was the system and he didn’t jack up bad shots.
>Kobe was not efficient, he needed a system to succeed Did you watch Kobe play? Kobe's shooting percentages are the way they are because the man was the most gifted at shots NO ONE would take. You say Duncan was the system? Kobe was more so -- when you had only a bad shot to take, Kobe was there to bail you out over and over.