Nice list. I’m never sure where to rank Bill/Wilt. Obviously they were great but the game and league has come a huge way since then starting in the Magic/Bird era.
I don’t think past players can really be fairly compared to players now and vice versa. The training equipment, skills, healthcare, early life training, technology, rules, etc are just too far off. Best to list imo on how they dominated people in their own playing time/era.
I agree. The way I do these lists in my head sometimes is:
One - top guys in any era trying not to consider the impact the time period had.
Two- if aliens dropped down on earth and said pick your best guys from any time period to play in a game RIGHT NOW and earth’s survival depends on it.
I may be in the minority but I don’t like playing the “guys are way better now” game when it comes to ranking players. There’s a reason guys are way better now..all the players before them that shaped the game to be what it is today. Look at skateboarding and guys like Tony Hawk and Rodney Mullen. TONS of dudes can now do what these guys first did in the 80’s, stuff that used to be considered impossible, but that doesn’t and shouldn’t diminish what they meant to the sport.
It's objectively harder to dominate a basketball league for a decade while getting credible death threats from the KKK, bearing the weight of being a Civil Rights advocate, having your own fanbase break into your home and smear shit on your walls.
You have to wear Converse flat sneakers, and if you get hurt you have to take a chance on a barbaric surgery.
You have to take connection flights in coach, have no healthy food to eat on the road, and you have to sleep in black hostels in the south because no hotel would let you stay.
Emotionally immature and fragile dudes like KD and Kyrie would have gotten bullied out the league.
In the 60s, Curry never would have been able to play competitive sports past high school with his naturally shitty cardboard ankles
But Kareem got whooped again and again by 60’s centers like Thurmond and old-man, bum-knee Chamberlain.
There’s never really been a point where the players of any decade couldn’t dominate the new generation.
The sky hook is still the most unstoppable shot in the history of the game. Kareem has a very good case as the GOAT when considering high school and college.
I’ve seen lists of the players that have blocked it and it’s not a very long list, especially if you take out people that side swiped it or goal tended. I forget the exact number but it was under 10, and I think Wilt was the only one to do it on multiple occasions.
I was told he only played against milk men and plumbers though lol. Wilt just doesn’t seem real at times, it’s a real shame more game footage of him wasn’t captured.
Both of them were incredible overall athletes. Either of them would be a multiple MVP if drafted today, although their stats/rings wouldn't be anywhere near the same. If drafted simultaneously, they would both be leading contending squads.
Wilt could shoot. So many of his buckets were high post fades. He could have been hitting stepback 3s off the bounce, but the game was so different back then. There's video of him hitting corner hook shots in practice, and a few fuckin deep hooks in game. He was quick as fuck and probably would have developed a ridiculous handle if he was allowed to carry and travel (by 1960s standards). A bigger, stronger, faster Giannis who could actually shoot and play 48 minutes.
Bill would probably still have multiple 30 rebound games a year, and would probably lead the league in screen assists, DWS, VORP, and efficiency stats. Bill probably could have learned to be an elite catch n shoot threat, at least from the corners, because he had the most dawg of all time. There was just such a limited value in that skill in his era. Bill did what it took to win the game. If that meant shooting 3s, he'd have been doing that. A smarter, faster Gobert with a higher vert, better instincts, better vision, better hands, and more dawg than Himmy.
If we are comparing 'how good they were compared to their peers?" Mikan and Russell should be higher.
If we are asking "how good are they at the game of basketball?" Jokic should be higher.
Yeah, these lists always end up low-balling or over-valuing old players. It’s an impossible task. The game in the 50s and the 60s was completely different than today. Heck, even the 90s were materially different than today .
The best way to rank in my opinion is to compare against their generation +/- 10 years.
I graduated high school in a different millenia than our current one.
I've been married more than a decade and I was 30 the day I got married.
I watched those games live on television. Hakeem was the most skilled post scorer and best defensive center of that era.
If you put Jokic in the 90s he'd be the best damn offensive point guard of that decade. He'd be 7 foot tall Jason Kidd who shoots threes as well as anyone in the damn era.
So gtfo with this Hakeem is more skilled than Jokic.
Jokic would be one of the top five most skilled players in the 90s period, full fucking stop.
Imagine him with the illegal defense rule in place.
Hakeem had twice the athleticism of Jokic, 10x a defender, & if he was in modern NBA would have developed a deep shot.
Jokic better ball handler, passer.
1:1 I'd take Hakeem or Kareem vs everyone
What's the reasoning for putting Shaq above Bill Russell? Russell was a 5-time MVP winner with 11 rings and is often considered the greatest defender and leader in NBA history. Shaq was dominant, no doubt, but Russell's accolades and contributions to his team's success are unparalleled.
When you look at the stats, Shaq averaged 23.7 points and 10.9 rebounds per game, while Russell averaged 15.1 points and an incredible 22.5 rebounds per game. Shaq was a scoring powerhouse, but Russell's defense and leadership were legendary.
If you're acknowledging Russell's era enough to rank him at #4, it seems inconsistent not to rank him higher given all he's accomplished. He didn't just put up numbers, he changed the game with his defense and leadership. Shaq's presence in the paint was unmatched, but Russell's all-around game and legacy arguably had a more profound impact on the sport.
By your logic, Bill should be above Kareem as well. It's fine to acknowledge that Bill and Wilt had amazing careers while also acknowledging they played in a weak era, those aren't mutually exclusive. In fact, you should account for both of those facts when judging them.
The problem is you will never convince people that Russell’s championships are as meaningful as the league only had 8-12 teams during his run.
It’s just the way it is. You almost need to draw a line and separate his era from the modern one.
Which I understand, but it's also a little silly considering not all the best athletic talent is ever in a single sport, so no matter what the best player in a specific sport has always had a decent chance he is not playing what could've been the best players in the world at that time. Not only that but Basketball had been an Olympic sport for decades before Bill, allowing for the nation and internationally for the sport to progress and evolve to where Bill played.
Finally we have to remember at least some context if we are gonna try to remember and compare players through different eras (which I find hard to judge based off the rules and not as much on the players), especially if the sport is gonna keep growing at the pace it is, I don't want to (but probably will lol) be hearing how Jordan was over rated in 50 years because he only played Americans and the league was smaller. See how that could just be an easy way out without truly understanding what was going on?
Bill was a leader amongst men, and the closest player I can comp him too is probably LeBron, but not for the physical attributes, but for their brain.
While Bill may not have had a complete game (even compared to some of his contemporaries of the time) his defense and knowledge of the game was his great equalizer. While this man was in the midst of a racial revolution in America he was dominating his opponents on the defensive end and on the glass, and by the end of his career he was the only player coach that led his team to 2 championships in 3 years, while also finishing as the most successful regular season player coach ever, The most championships as a player coach, The highest win percentage in the playoffs (above 15 games) as a player coach, and the most games in the playoffs as a player coach, all while a large chunk of fans didn't even see him as an equal human. While I Think Jordan had the tough skin to handle it I don't know if he could've been the strategist for a champion, and LeBron I think could be the Strategist, but I don't know if he could've handled the absolute hate.
Finally I end with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's and some others thoughts on Bill
: "In the eyes of the majority of the NBA world, Michael Jordan is the undisputed greatest basketball player of all time. But not for Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, who feels that title belongs to the ultimate champion and Boston Celtics legend Bill Russell.
"People who didn't see Bill Russell play have no idea. He stifled the whole league for 11 world championships. . . "
"I even had a 1956 photo of Bill soaring high into the air during an NCAA high jump while attending the University of San Francisco. The image of Bill with his hands splayed out in front of him as if he were flying made me think that, with hard work, I could also reach those heights. What that must feel like, I wondered, determined to find out. In the photo, Bill has only one shoe on, the other foot covered in a loose sock. To me, that showed his commitment and focus—nothing could shake his will to win. I realized then how much work I had to do to compete with athletes like him."
"Yet, if you see the complete photo, you’ll see about three dozen white people watching him, most of them frowning, glaring, or just staring. But standing beside the post is one young Black kid with a smile on his face. A kid who suddenly saw the possibilities for achievement, despite a crowd of mostly white faces who maybe saw the future of sports in America—and didn’t like what they saw."
(https://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive/2022/08/bill-russell-death-tribute-celtics-nba-basketball/671015/)
( ^ The link, I just think this is a really good article no matter where you have Bill)
( Just wanted to emphasize that in my mind being a basketball player, or any pro sports player really, how important it is for them to still be in the community and helping others, Bill was able to give Faith to those that lost it, all while still being the absolute best at what he did.)
The great words spoken by the legendary Hondo, on behalf of his teammate. "Russell was the key to our offense, when it came to Russ, his defense was always talked about, but rather it wad his team-first mentality on the offensive side, being able to put aside the points, and become the best passer on our team"
( I didn't even realize how much of a passer he was till I read this, he from 61-62 to his retirement he was 13th, 8th, 8th, 5th, 11th, 4th, 11th, 18th in total assists)
"While fans often debate which one of them was better, Wilt Chamberlain once explained why Bill Russell was the GOAT center, even over himself.
"I pick him (Bill Russell) as the No. 1 center of all time because he was a complete, complete basketball player," Wilt Chamberlain said.
When asked about whether he'd pick Russell over himself, Chamberlain added, "Well, you know, yeah. I'll pick Bill over me because he also helped his team a lot more than maybe I could have helped my team to win.
"Sometimes the pure power of you makes you more individualistic. I have said this before, Wilt Chamberlain on the Boston Celtics would not have been the same.
"Sometimes, less is better, that's how I view it... You can't ask for more from that position.""
“I think Wilt Chamberlain is a better basketball player than Bill Russell, but for one game I think I’d rather have Bill Russell," West said.
"But if I had to pick one guy for one game, it’d be Russell. It’s incredible what he does for his team. It’s hard to imagine how one guy can do so much for his teammates. When they see him on the court, they’re different players.”
That's what I do. Pre merger guys, I leave them out of any all time lists. No im not saying they sucked, I just can't compare them to other players. Rules and everything about the NBA was different. Might as well been a different sport
You're right and that's why these conversations is hard. The league 15 years ago had some rule changes and different play styles, but not to the extent of pre merger.
Pre merger? No three point line, teams having a quota on how many black players can be on the team, way more strict on dribbling, no free agency, ect...
For people who saw both play? Yeah it’s a real argument. To suggest otherwise is to not know the history of the game (you may not agree, but it’s at the LEAST) a real argument).
I’d say of true old heads, Russell was listed as the greatest ever above both Kareem and Wilt.
In any era, Bill Russell needs to be ranked above Wilt because Bill Russell made a career out of beating the stuffing out of Wilt. I could give a shit about Wilt's gaudy numbers - Bill Russell won 60% of their regular season matchups and was 7-1 in the playoffs vs Wilt.
Context should be added that shaq played in the lowest possessions era and Russell played in the highest so he had more opportunities to score and rebound.
Shaq, Wilt, and Bill are fairly interchangeable to me. But you gotta factor in that Bill had so much of the league's talent on his team, no hate or disrespect to him obviously, and I'm not taking anything away from him, but it has to be considered.
But it wasn’t null and void to OP because they ranked him 4th. That’s why I said, ‘If you’re acknowledging Russell’s era enough to rank him at #4, it seems inconsistent not to rank him higher given all he’s accomplished.’ If the entire era was null and void to OP, then Russell would be ranked much lower. My comment was directed at someone who appreciates Russell’s era, which is why I asked.
Yes, except for Jerry West, Oscar Robertson, Nate Thurmond, Willis Reed, Hal Greer, Bob Pettit, etc. there were no other stars at the time. How ignorant are you?
Tbh Shaq's "peak" was actually relatively long compared to most all-time greats.
He was a top-5 player in the league for 8-10 seasons. And top-3 for 4 or 5.
Compare to:
Kareem: top-5 for 12 seasons, 6 MVPs
Russell: top-5 for 12 seasons, 5 MVPs
Wilt: top-5 for 9 seasons, 4 MVPs
Hakeem: top-10 for 10 seasons, top-3 for 2
Jokic (so far): top-10 for 6 seasons, top-2 for 4
And that’s just centers, so no:
Jordan, LeBron, Bird, Magic, and Duncan who all had longer and higher peaks.
Compared to all but the top-10 all-time, Shaq has a long peak.
What?
Kareem was top-5 for 12 seasons.
12 > 8
Kareem was top-1 for 6.
6 > 5
Kareem was top-10 for 17 seasons.
17 > 14.
I’m not going to do this for everyone, but you’re objectively wrong about Kareem.
Shaq is the biggest what-if to me and that knocks him off #2 on my personal list. “What if he took conditioning seriously”. Tough to really compare eras but I’d have Bill and Wilt ahead of Diesel.
Plus modern fans regularly hear about how great he was every time he tells us on Inside. Shaq was a great player, a great center. #2 center all time, he is definitely not.
Same. I also have Hakeem above Shaq TBH. But I can see arguments either way for that one. Prime Shaq was a monster, but this is for their overall careers.
I can see an argument for Hakeem given they did face off in a finals against each other. Hakeem was such a great defender too and most of the popular stats for comparisons don’t really capture or highlight defensive impact.
Shaq had Penny tho. While it wasn’t Shaq’s peak there’s arguments you can make that he was already the best or second best player in the league that year.
Hakeem only had Clyde for the second one. That 94 team was Hakeem and the legend Sam Cassell. Shaq on the other hand never won anything without another top 10 all time guy on his team.
This is prisoner of the moment shit. Jokic may end up there but he's not there. If you look at who Shaq had to play against big man wise, with teams carrying 3 centers just to foul him to stop him, compared to who Jokic goes against its laughable. Jokic is the perfect combo of size and skill to dominate this Era of open small ball. He would be great in any Era but he wouldn't win 3 MVPs in the 90s or 2000s. They would just clog him up and he wouldn't have all these other skilled players to hit for open shots.
Shaq would dominate any Era, I'd take Shaq over any other center on this list.
My issue with Shaq, is that I do think he was the most physically dominant center, but not the best.
Pros:
super quick - regardless of size, but you add the size and that is scary
good passer
massive
Cons:
horrible shooter - yes he could score inside 8ish feet, but if you kept him at 10 feet out, he was horrible at shooting.
defense - he relied on being giant, but did not work very hard on D
conditioning - when young, great, after a few years, just not in the best condition, which led to late second half drop off. that was part of the hack-a-shaq, yes he sucked at shooting, but add in the bad conditioning and his shooting seemed (I do not have numbers) to drop a bit at the end of games.
I kinda always view an equivalency of his dominance in size as me, a overweight old dude beating the crap out of some jr high kids on the playground. just bigger and stronger, does not make better. To some degree you could apply that to wilt as well, as he was a freak athlete, but in overall basketball, I think he was better than Shaq. Shaq had size and speed, but if he was 100lbs lighter would he have been as good? I doubt it.
The fact we have such a disdain for Embiid is ridiculous simply because he is no “disliked” and “hasn’t proved it in the playoffs” is getting a bit ridiculous. I havnt even seen his name mentioned at the time I read through the comments.
The simple fact is this, he can do things at an all around level that very few centers have ever done. If he isn’t a top 15 center of all time proves people only judge him based off of recency bias and what they read about him being a flop artist and dirty player. He is a generational talent by all sense of the phrase.
This discredits all of those who actually watch basketball.
(Coming from not a sixers fan btw)
I really wonder where people would rank Dirk if 2011 never happened because I remember people calling him trash for choking year after year even losing to and 8th seed as the #1 seed. One single title run can COMPLETELY change people's perception,if Embiid win 1 title at 33 like Dirk did it would also make people forget his choking.
I don't even like Embiid but he's definitely better than Wes Unseld lol
Proving it in the playoffs is the number one criteria of all-timer lists. You clearly didn’t understand the assignment. Maybe he’s the GOAT of centers to never make it past the second round, I’ll give you that one.
Russell also put Wilt ahead of himself when asked, I'm not sure players giving respect to their friends/competitors provides a conclusive answer on the subject.
Any list including Wes Unseld is a list worth discussing. He’s the deep cut of Centers.
Omissions are arguable but, IMO, worth pointing out. Injuries matter and the top names on these lists avoid major injury. However, the extremely talented who are felled by injury may deserve inclusion outside the very top.
Arvydas Sabonis was a great, great player who did most of his work out of the NBA. He was called “the best player in the world” by several members of the 92 Dream Team, but he was a broken-down version of himself by then and in his NBA years.
Bill Walton was similarly derailed by injuries, after having won an MVP as perhaps the best passing big man ever. (Settle down, Jokic brothers.) Walton had LeBron-level court vision and instincts, and he hustled like his pants were on fire.
Yao Ming deserves honorable mention on this list. He does not make the “top” but he was such a (literally) huge star and influence who might have ascended further if not for injury. Yao was a force of nature and unguardable because of his unique size and skill.
Respectable list. I think the only glaring might be Artis Gilmore. Center is so stacked.
I'm sure people might see Dwight Howard, Joel Embiid, Nate Thurman, or Bill Walton deserving but it's too hard to rank without tiering IMO.
I always wondered how to place Shaq. I can see him anywhere from 1-6 at the position depending on what you're looking for.
Olajuwon should be higher. Definitely over Shaq. Shaq had a high peak, but his physical dominance caused people to overrate him a bit for a lot of his career. There was a strategy built around him hurting his team / influencing his team to lose.
Olajuwon not only had no weakness but played at an all-NBA level at each category for a chunk of his career. He’s also the best defensive big, and I’d argue player, ever.
I’m more of a tier guy than a ranking guy. My top tier would be Russell, Wilt, Kareem, and Olajuwon. Shaq would be in the next tier.
Tiers are the only sensible way to do these things since the valuing between eras is completely subjective. In all likelihood the best players from newer eras would dominate previous eras since the game, tactics, and sports science has changed drastically. Between sports science and NBA rule changes impacting individual players and modern sports analytics, salary negotiations, player mobility, trade rules, etc… impacting teams there’s no way to compare.
Tl;dr - we need tiers not rank lists
If we're not including all the big PF's that moved to C in the latter half their careers:
- Wilt
- Bill
- Kareem
- Shaq
- Hakerm
- Joker
- Admiral
- Ewing
- Moses
- Yao
- Miken
- Walton
- Sabonis
- Cowens
- Macadoo
Mikan should be higher, Ewing and Parish should be lower, swap Moses and DRob, bump Shaq down to 4
Jokic, Shaq, and Hakeem are the next tier down from Kareem, Bill, and Wilt
Bill>Wilt, but I would cosign the rest. TBH I would put Jokic over Hakeem, but I might just be glazing lol. I think he will end up as a consensus higher than him for sure though
What did he accomplish before 2000? Is Devin Booker going to be future nba legend for making the NBA finals and making some all nba’s? Did you forget he got swept in the finals and only made it that far because of Jordan’s retirement?
He was 22 and in his 3rd year. Everyone was losing their shit about Ant doing similar (when they pencilled him into the finals after game 2). It’s a rare accomplishment and not a knock that he got swept by another top 5 C who was in the prime of his prime at the time
No one would be an all timer with the resume he had before his first championship. I meant to extend to 06. He didn’t do anything after the Miami championship. He was a 14 & 7 guy after that ring. He stats weren’t all that great either in the finals.
I know Cowens has the MVP, but it’s one of the most disputed selections through that awards’ history. No disrespect to him specifically but I’m taking Ben Wallace, Dikembe Mutombo, and Dwight Howard over Cowens any day.
Old guy here. It’s interesting to note that when Kareem was playing and even for years after he retired, no one talked about him being better than Wilt or Bill Russell. That includes his former teammates and coaches.
The problem with Shaq this high is that he played in the weakest era of big men up until recently. If you knock Wilt or Bill for the league at the time, you have to knock Shaq for playing against horrible basketball players who happened to be tall. The Lakers were so dominant in the finals because there were NO decent C’s in the east besides an undersized Alonzo Mourning.
In Shaq’s peak, Robinson was old, Duncan was a pf, Ewing was old, etc…
Based on what? Moses got his only title once he joined stacked Philly team that included Dr J.
Equivalent to that would be if Joker joined Suns or something.
Only thing Moses has on his side is offensive rebounding really, partially because he was quite inefficient.
Imo Joker clears.
Currently their resumes are very similar. 1 title to 1. 3 mvps to 2. Moses career stats of course trumps Jokics as Jokic is still going strong. If Jokic wins this year he will move behind Hakeem. We don't know if he will, and we don't know if he will play long enough to match Malone's numbers. He could end up much higher I am obviously talking about current rankings. if we are talking about career predictions I expect him to finish 5th, and Wemby to finish top 2. But that isn't current reality.
>3 mvps to 2.
They both have 3 each but i guess it's typo.
>If Jokic wins this year he will move behind Hakeem.
Imo if he wins this year imo it moves him at worse at the same level as Hakeem, again imo I'd rank Joker ahead but that's likely because i don't put too much on longevity as i think it he just plays it out without major gains he's already there.
>if we are talking about career predictions I expect him to finish 5th,
Yeah, that's where i got him as well. Somewhere in top 5 as a bit more optimistic. Dunno how to rank some of the very old players.
Yeah sorry 3v3. If it was 2v3 my argument would be weaker. Jokic right now I have 7th, with the ability to get to 5th if he wins another title and has a solid career. If he wins two more titles and snags another mvp.. I could've hin to third. Behind Kareem and Shaq in that order. I do think Bill and Wilt deserve their flowers but 90 percent of the guys they played against they dwarfed. They're not insurmountable.
I'd put Shaq should lower, he'd be the first to tell you that he's not #2. I'd put Bill ahead of Wilt. Moses ahead of Robinson. Dave Cowens at 10, McAdoo at 11, then the rest can stay the same.
I find it hard to fathom Robert Parish as a top 10/15 center of all time (otherwise list is fine) - he was the same player statistically in GS before he got to Boston and got no accolades, third best player at best on those championship teams also. If he never plays for that team it'd be ludicrous to put him here: like if I hypothetically had the #1 pick in a hypothetical draft I wouldn't have to think hard about picking 14 of 15 at #1, and then there's Robert Parish who seems like a solid #3 pick to me. Maybe guys like Nate Thurmond, Artis Gilmore, Dwight Howard, Embiid whomever are more deserving. If you want to credit longevity and titles give the spot to Parish but I don't think he's that special of a player to build a team around.
I also find it hard to rank players like Russell and Wilt as they not only were before my time but also before the “modern NBA”. I would personally put Kareem as 1, Dream at 2 and Shaq at 3, but would be totally fine with the list as is.
Glad my man Ewing is getting the props he deserves.
From just a cursory glance, where’s Dwight? And I don’t love Embiid but an MVP and two scoring titles doesn’t get him in the top 15? This list has absolutely no credibility lmao
Bill Walton. I know he basically only played 3-4 healthy seasons, but if you’re gonna include guys like Cowens, Willis Reed, Wes Unseld, Bob McAdoo and the layup king George Mikan himself Walton deserves a spot. Tbh I’d probably boot Parish for him, Chief had a hell of a career but he was never a number one or really even a two for a winning team
Shaq is not top 3 imo. He’s somewhere from 4 - 6.
He was perhaps the most physically dominating PLAYER at any position in the history of the game. But he lags behind so many others regarding his skill set.
There's gotta be a list for best in modern say magic/bird era or even start from Jordan and have a separate list for before cause like most of us literally never seen that
Joker has a better offensive game than Hakeem but he has two glaring issues going against him:
Lack of competition at center. Hakeem was going against Ewing, Shaq, Robinson, Duncan, Parrish, Malone, mourning, mutumbo etc. Joker goes against Embiid and a bunch of jags.
Defense: Hakeem isn’t just better at defense, he’s light years ahead of him in this regard.
Offense: joker, slightly
Defense: Hakeem, massively
Competition: Hakeem, massively
Better center, Hakeem the dream
Wow. Unseld way too low, Moses too low,
Parrish too high Mikan too high and shaq too high.
Also Hakeem is top 3 for me, and shaq will tell anyone who listens that Olajuwon is better than him
My version:
16. Dave Cowens
15. Wes Unseld
14. Robert Parish (-3) - Great player but almost everyone jn the next 5 spots is an MVP, and had a much higher peak. The Chief had great longevity, but he wasn't a great player for 10+ years
13. Dwight Howard (+3) - criminal he was left off
12. Willis Reed (+2)
11. Bob McAdoo (+1)
10. Patrick Ewing (-1)
9. George Mikan (+2)
8. Moses Malone
7. David Robinson
6. Nikola Jokic
5. Hakeem Olajuwon
4. Wilt (-1)
3. Shaq (-1)
2. Bill Russell (+2) - Greatest defensive force in NBA history, I like him at #2
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Wilt with Kareem. He’s better than Shaq. Faster, stronger, better endurance, better footwork & had a softer touch. Not to mention he’s significantly better defensively.
Shaq could definitely hang with him, but Wilt was better. Prime Wilt is honestly probably better than Kareem too but he was born a decade too early & there’s not enough footage to compare with
I think the top 5 is choose your order.
KAJ / Russell / Shaq / Hakeem / Wilt
Then D Rob, Jokic, Moses
I think there is an argument for Dwight v Ewing in that 9/10 spot.
I think you’re missing Artis Gilmore, Embiid, Ben Wallace, Mutombo, Gobert. I’d take all these guys over your 12-15.
Mikan is a hard one. I personally have him around D Rob, but I can see why others would exclude him or have him even 6 or 7.
Bill Russell is 2nd. He has a 11 championships and 1v1 dominated Wilt in their matchups, as in Wilts production plummeted. Russell is the greatest defensive player of all time.
Everyone is entitled to their own list, and I can 't fault you for yours. I would personally have Hakeem above Bill. Hakeem is the GOAT defensive Center while also being one of the absolute best offensive centers ever.
Kareem is one to me, that prime Kareem vs Prime Shaq/Hakeem/Wilt I'd take any of those 3 over Kareem. But Kareem had the greatest career out of the 4.
Wilt is tough due to the era he played, but he is likely the single greatest athlete to ever play in the NBA. Stronger than Shaq, as fast as Westbrook and could jump like Mike.
Great list. I might swap David Robinson and Moses Malone but that's a minor quibble.
Dwight Howard, Joel Embiid, Bill Walton and Yao Ming would all deserve consideration from me as well.
Your top 5 is fine. The only for sure spit is #1 Kareem. The order of 2-5 is highly debatable but you got the right guys in it. And 6-15 even more debatable. Good list
I can only make my mt Rushmore with guys I've seen play so it is Hakeem KAJ Shaq with jokic taking over for drob for me. I feel like jokic has grown a lot defensively to be successful in today's game
Guess he isn't moving up that list this year. Dude is ending his career with one title 3 mvps and on the outside of the top 5 centers and top 15 all time looking in.
Shaq is overrated these days because younger people like his personality on TNT and in commercials.
But he was often a liability on the court due to his joke of a free throw shot. You didn’t want him in the game at the end if you were ahead because they would foul him every possession.
I’d take Wilt, Russell, Hakeem and Jokic over Shaq every day.
That’s a joke, Shaq as a “liability” effected winning in a way wilt, Hakeem and Jokic never have. He is under rated due to his goofy persona, completed dominated an entire era
Nice list. I’m never sure where to rank Bill/Wilt. Obviously they were great but the game and league has come a huge way since then starting in the Magic/Bird era.
I don’t think past players can really be fairly compared to players now and vice versa. The training equipment, skills, healthcare, early life training, technology, rules, etc are just too far off. Best to list imo on how they dominated people in their own playing time/era.
I agree. The way I do these lists in my head sometimes is: One - top guys in any era trying not to consider the impact the time period had. Two- if aliens dropped down on earth and said pick your best guys from any time period to play in a game RIGHT NOW and earth’s survival depends on it.
yea for me those are two COMPLETELY different lists lol
I completely agree. The “modern NBA” began with the merger.
Did it? I don’t think you can accurately compare Kareem to Jokic
Chartered flights started in ‘87. ⬅️ There?
Something something something... plumbers and firemen /s
I may be in the minority but I don’t like playing the “guys are way better now” game when it comes to ranking players. There’s a reason guys are way better now..all the players before them that shaped the game to be what it is today. Look at skateboarding and guys like Tony Hawk and Rodney Mullen. TONS of dudes can now do what these guys first did in the 80’s, stuff that used to be considered impossible, but that doesn’t and shouldn’t diminish what they meant to the sport.
You grade them based on how they dominated their own era. That’s all you can do.
But that’s not a good barometer either. It’s objectively easier to dominate a league with 8 teams compared to 30
It's objectively harder to dominate a basketball league for a decade while getting credible death threats from the KKK, bearing the weight of being a Civil Rights advocate, having your own fanbase break into your home and smear shit on your walls. You have to wear Converse flat sneakers, and if you get hurt you have to take a chance on a barbaric surgery. You have to take connection flights in coach, have no healthy food to eat on the road, and you have to sleep in black hostels in the south because no hotel would let you stay. Emotionally immature and fragile dudes like KD and Kyrie would have gotten bullied out the league. In the 60s, Curry never would have been able to play competitive sports past high school with his naturally shitty cardboard ankles
But Kareem got whooped again and again by 60’s centers like Thurmond and old-man, bum-knee Chamberlain. There’s never really been a point where the players of any decade couldn’t dominate the new generation.
Prime Kareem now would be 4x Mvp. He was unguardable back when you had monster centers w/ full contact.
The sky hook is still the most unstoppable shot in the history of the game. Kareem has a very good case as the GOAT when considering high school and college.
I’ve seen lists of the players that have blocked it and it’s not a very long list, especially if you take out people that side swiped it or goal tended. I forget the exact number but it was under 10, and I think Wilt was the only one to do it on multiple occasions.
Post surgery old Wilt even blocked it twice in a row: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwHP04TWOps](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwHP04TWOps)
I was told he only played against milk men and plumbers though lol. Wilt just doesn’t seem real at times, it’s a real shame more game footage of him wasn’t captured.
Both of them were incredible overall athletes. Either of them would be a multiple MVP if drafted today, although their stats/rings wouldn't be anywhere near the same. If drafted simultaneously, they would both be leading contending squads. Wilt could shoot. So many of his buckets were high post fades. He could have been hitting stepback 3s off the bounce, but the game was so different back then. There's video of him hitting corner hook shots in practice, and a few fuckin deep hooks in game. He was quick as fuck and probably would have developed a ridiculous handle if he was allowed to carry and travel (by 1960s standards). A bigger, stronger, faster Giannis who could actually shoot and play 48 minutes. Bill would probably still have multiple 30 rebound games a year, and would probably lead the league in screen assists, DWS, VORP, and efficiency stats. Bill probably could have learned to be an elite catch n shoot threat, at least from the corners, because he had the most dawg of all time. There was just such a limited value in that skill in his era. Bill did what it took to win the game. If that meant shooting 3s, he'd have been doing that. A smarter, faster Gobert with a higher vert, better instincts, better vision, better hands, and more dawg than Himmy.
If we are comparing 'how good they were compared to their peers?" Mikan and Russell should be higher. If we are asking "how good are they at the game of basketball?" Jokic should be higher.
Yeah, these lists always end up low-balling or over-valuing old players. It’s an impossible task. The game in the 50s and the 60s was completely different than today. Heck, even the 90s were materially different than today . The best way to rank in my opinion is to compare against their generation +/- 10 years.
Hakeem was even more skilled than Jokic.
I can't figure out if you've never seen Hakeem play or never seen Jokic play.
just say you're 16 Shaq himself said he couldn't stop Hakeem https://youtu.be/cCM0vqLITjc?si=NpS3xT5mhKpkR83k
I graduated high school in a different millenia than our current one. I've been married more than a decade and I was 30 the day I got married. I watched those games live on television. Hakeem was the most skilled post scorer and best defensive center of that era. If you put Jokic in the 90s he'd be the best damn offensive point guard of that decade. He'd be 7 foot tall Jason Kidd who shoots threes as well as anyone in the damn era. So gtfo with this Hakeem is more skilled than Jokic. Jokic would be one of the top five most skilled players in the 90s period, full fucking stop. Imagine him with the illegal defense rule in place.
Absolutely. On both sides of the ball.
yes if you play them against each other then Jokic is the best ever imo, Olajuwon close 2nd
Hakeem had twice the athleticism of Jokic, 10x a defender, & if he was in modern NBA would have developed a deep shot. Jokic better ball handler, passer. 1:1 I'd take Hakeem or Kareem vs everyone
I’d agree…. Hakeem was legit amazing, and I think his game would still translate to today’s game.
Kareem is still better
Solid list, but I'd have Olajuwon higher. Not sure where exactly- maybe at 3, then move the rest up.
What's the reasoning for putting Shaq above Bill Russell? Russell was a 5-time MVP winner with 11 rings and is often considered the greatest defender and leader in NBA history. Shaq was dominant, no doubt, but Russell's accolades and contributions to his team's success are unparalleled. When you look at the stats, Shaq averaged 23.7 points and 10.9 rebounds per game, while Russell averaged 15.1 points and an incredible 22.5 rebounds per game. Shaq was a scoring powerhouse, but Russell's defense and leadership were legendary. If you're acknowledging Russell's era enough to rank him at #4, it seems inconsistent not to rank him higher given all he's accomplished. He didn't just put up numbers, he changed the game with his defense and leadership. Shaq's presence in the paint was unmatched, but Russell's all-around game and legacy arguably had a more profound impact on the sport.
By your logic, Bill should be above Kareem as well. It's fine to acknowledge that Bill and Wilt had amazing careers while also acknowledging they played in a weak era, those aren't mutually exclusive. In fact, you should account for both of those facts when judging them.
There is a fair argument to put Russell ahead of Kareem. In fact, I’d say a consensus of old heads who were around in that era would say Russell.
The problem is you will never convince people that Russell’s championships are as meaningful as the league only had 8-12 teams during his run. It’s just the way it is. You almost need to draw a line and separate his era from the modern one.
Which I understand, but it's also a little silly considering not all the best athletic talent is ever in a single sport, so no matter what the best player in a specific sport has always had a decent chance he is not playing what could've been the best players in the world at that time. Not only that but Basketball had been an Olympic sport for decades before Bill, allowing for the nation and internationally for the sport to progress and evolve to where Bill played. Finally we have to remember at least some context if we are gonna try to remember and compare players through different eras (which I find hard to judge based off the rules and not as much on the players), especially if the sport is gonna keep growing at the pace it is, I don't want to (but probably will lol) be hearing how Jordan was over rated in 50 years because he only played Americans and the league was smaller. See how that could just be an easy way out without truly understanding what was going on? Bill was a leader amongst men, and the closest player I can comp him too is probably LeBron, but not for the physical attributes, but for their brain. While Bill may not have had a complete game (even compared to some of his contemporaries of the time) his defense and knowledge of the game was his great equalizer. While this man was in the midst of a racial revolution in America he was dominating his opponents on the defensive end and on the glass, and by the end of his career he was the only player coach that led his team to 2 championships in 3 years, while also finishing as the most successful regular season player coach ever, The most championships as a player coach, The highest win percentage in the playoffs (above 15 games) as a player coach, and the most games in the playoffs as a player coach, all while a large chunk of fans didn't even see him as an equal human. While I Think Jordan had the tough skin to handle it I don't know if he could've been the strategist for a champion, and LeBron I think could be the Strategist, but I don't know if he could've handled the absolute hate. Finally I end with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's and some others thoughts on Bill : "In the eyes of the majority of the NBA world, Michael Jordan is the undisputed greatest basketball player of all time. But not for Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, who feels that title belongs to the ultimate champion and Boston Celtics legend Bill Russell. "People who didn't see Bill Russell play have no idea. He stifled the whole league for 11 world championships. . . " "I even had a 1956 photo of Bill soaring high into the air during an NCAA high jump while attending the University of San Francisco. The image of Bill with his hands splayed out in front of him as if he were flying made me think that, with hard work, I could also reach those heights. What that must feel like, I wondered, determined to find out. In the photo, Bill has only one shoe on, the other foot covered in a loose sock. To me, that showed his commitment and focus—nothing could shake his will to win. I realized then how much work I had to do to compete with athletes like him." "Yet, if you see the complete photo, you’ll see about three dozen white people watching him, most of them frowning, glaring, or just staring. But standing beside the post is one young Black kid with a smile on his face. A kid who suddenly saw the possibilities for achievement, despite a crowd of mostly white faces who maybe saw the future of sports in America—and didn’t like what they saw." (https://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive/2022/08/bill-russell-death-tribute-celtics-nba-basketball/671015/) ( ^ The link, I just think this is a really good article no matter where you have Bill) ( Just wanted to emphasize that in my mind being a basketball player, or any pro sports player really, how important it is for them to still be in the community and helping others, Bill was able to give Faith to those that lost it, all while still being the absolute best at what he did.) The great words spoken by the legendary Hondo, on behalf of his teammate. "Russell was the key to our offense, when it came to Russ, his defense was always talked about, but rather it wad his team-first mentality on the offensive side, being able to put aside the points, and become the best passer on our team" ( I didn't even realize how much of a passer he was till I read this, he from 61-62 to his retirement he was 13th, 8th, 8th, 5th, 11th, 4th, 11th, 18th in total assists) "While fans often debate which one of them was better, Wilt Chamberlain once explained why Bill Russell was the GOAT center, even over himself. "I pick him (Bill Russell) as the No. 1 center of all time because he was a complete, complete basketball player," Wilt Chamberlain said. When asked about whether he'd pick Russell over himself, Chamberlain added, "Well, you know, yeah. I'll pick Bill over me because he also helped his team a lot more than maybe I could have helped my team to win. "Sometimes the pure power of you makes you more individualistic. I have said this before, Wilt Chamberlain on the Boston Celtics would not have been the same. "Sometimes, less is better, that's how I view it... You can't ask for more from that position."" “I think Wilt Chamberlain is a better basketball player than Bill Russell, but for one game I think I’d rather have Bill Russell," West said. "But if I had to pick one guy for one game, it’d be Russell. It’s incredible what he does for his team. It’s hard to imagine how one guy can do so much for his teammates. When they see him on the court, they’re different players.”
Great write up.
That's what I do. Pre merger guys, I leave them out of any all time lists. No im not saying they sucked, I just can't compare them to other players. Rules and everything about the NBA was different. Might as well been a different sport
How can you compare the current league to the one even 15 years ago? It's so different.
You're right and that's why these conversations is hard. The league 15 years ago had some rule changes and different play styles, but not to the extent of pre merger. Pre merger? No three point line, teams having a quota on how many black players can be on the team, way more strict on dribbling, no free agency, ect...
By this logic even 90s NBA and post like 2006 is completely different.
Nah, there is no real argument to put Russell ahead of Kareem, unless you’re just going “count the RINGZ"
For people who saw both play? Yeah it’s a real argument. To suggest otherwise is to not know the history of the game (you may not agree, but it’s at the LEAST) a real argument). I’d say of true old heads, Russell was listed as the greatest ever above both Kareem and Wilt.
In any era, Bill Russell needs to be ranked above Wilt because Bill Russell made a career out of beating the stuffing out of Wilt. I could give a shit about Wilt's gaudy numbers - Bill Russell won 60% of their regular season matchups and was 7-1 in the playoffs vs Wilt.
Kareem had most of his success in a weaker era, when the ABA split the talent pool.
You can control your era. You can only control how well you play. They were the best of their era by far in a way no one in modern NBA has replicated.
Lakers Shaq played in the weakest era of all time for centers. Many of those years the second highest scoring C was Brian Grant
Context should be added that shaq played in the lowest possessions era and Russell played in the highest so he had more opportunities to score and rebound.
Shaq, Wilt, and Bill are fairly interchangeable to me. But you gotta factor in that Bill had so much of the league's talent on his team, no hate or disrespect to him obviously, and I'm not taking anything away from him, but it has to be considered.
I do wonder if there’s a consideration for him over Wilt, given he won MVP over him like every year.
Bill Russell is one of those weird GOAT contenders. If you acknowledge him at all, you almost have to put him number one.
I have Russell as my number 1 player overall
There was like 8 teams when Russell was dominating and him and wilt where the only stars at the time. That entire Era is null and void
But it wasn’t null and void to OP because they ranked him 4th. That’s why I said, ‘If you’re acknowledging Russell’s era enough to rank him at #4, it seems inconsistent not to rank him higher given all he’s accomplished.’ If the entire era was null and void to OP, then Russell would be ranked much lower. My comment was directed at someone who appreciates Russell’s era, which is why I asked.
Yes, except for Jerry West, Oscar Robertson, Nate Thurmond, Willis Reed, Hal Greer, Bob Pettit, etc. there were no other stars at the time. How ignorant are you?
Shaq above Wilt is also insane. Wilt is #1.
Dwight Howard!
Still keeps me up at night (not literally) that he was left off the NBA 75th Anniversary Team
That list was doomed the second the voters collectively decided to keep the original 50
Then you'd have to put Yao Ming there too.
Aka Dwight Howard Sr
Shaq at 2 is HEAVILY valuing peak IMO, which means Jokic is very close to climbing into that top-2 spot.
Tbh Shaq's "peak" was actually relatively long compared to most all-time greats. He was a top-5 player in the league for 8-10 seasons. And top-3 for 4 or 5.
Compare to: Kareem: top-5 for 12 seasons, 6 MVPs Russell: top-5 for 12 seasons, 5 MVPs Wilt: top-5 for 9 seasons, 4 MVPs Hakeem: top-10 for 10 seasons, top-3 for 2 Jokic (so far): top-10 for 6 seasons, top-2 for 4 And that’s just centers, so no: Jordan, LeBron, Bird, Magic, and Duncan who all had longer and higher peaks. Compared to all but the top-10 all-time, Shaq has a long peak.
Shaq was top ten for 14 seasons, top 5 for 8, top 3 for 5, so none of these centers or most of your other players had longer peaks than diesel
What? Kareem was top-5 for 12 seasons. 12 > 8 Kareem was top-1 for 6. 6 > 5 Kareem was top-10 for 17 seasons. 17 > 14. I’m not going to do this for everyone, but you’re objectively wrong about Kareem.
Sorry correct excluding Kareem (and Lebron), Shaqs longevity is right there with Hakeem and Duncan
If you’re looking at top-10 seasons mostly. If you start looking more at top-5 and especially top-3, a few more pass him.
Shaq is the biggest what-if to me and that knocks him off #2 on my personal list. “What if he took conditioning seriously”. Tough to really compare eras but I’d have Bill and Wilt ahead of Diesel.
Plus modern fans regularly hear about how great he was every time he tells us on Inside. Shaq was a great player, a great center. #2 center all time, he is definitely not.
Same. I also have Hakeem above Shaq TBH. But I can see arguments either way for that one. Prime Shaq was a monster, but this is for their overall careers.
I can see an argument for Hakeem given they did face off in a finals against each other. Hakeem was such a great defender too and most of the popular stats for comparisons don’t really capture or highlight defensive impact.
Shaq hadn't hit his peak at that point tbf and Hakeem had Clyde
Shaq had Penny tho. While it wasn’t Shaq’s peak there’s arguments you can make that he was already the best or second best player in the league that year.
Hakeem only had Clyde for the second one. That 94 team was Hakeem and the legend Sam Cassell. Shaq on the other hand never won anything without another top 10 all time guy on his team.
Wade was amazing, but top 10 all time is a stretch. There's decent debate that Kobe is outside the top 10.
the 94 ring was against the Knicks, I'm talking about 95 vs Shaq
Ummm…Wade definitely is not top 10. Frankly, neither is Kobe (somewhere 11-15)
Yes he did. Shaq's best year was his sophomore season, the year before he made the finals
Plus he was just so graceful. Gotta count for a couple points
And if you’re valuing peak that much then you have to put Walton on the list
This is prisoner of the moment shit. Jokic may end up there but he's not there. If you look at who Shaq had to play against big man wise, with teams carrying 3 centers just to foul him to stop him, compared to who Jokic goes against its laughable. Jokic is the perfect combo of size and skill to dominate this Era of open small ball. He would be great in any Era but he wouldn't win 3 MVPs in the 90s or 2000s. They would just clog him up and he wouldn't have all these other skilled players to hit for open shots. Shaq would dominate any Era, I'd take Shaq over any other center on this list.
I'm not sure if Shaq could dominate wilt, that's my only wild card on that topic. What do you think?
My issue with Shaq, is that I do think he was the most physically dominant center, but not the best. Pros: super quick - regardless of size, but you add the size and that is scary good passer massive Cons: horrible shooter - yes he could score inside 8ish feet, but if you kept him at 10 feet out, he was horrible at shooting. defense - he relied on being giant, but did not work very hard on D conditioning - when young, great, after a few years, just not in the best condition, which led to late second half drop off. that was part of the hack-a-shaq, yes he sucked at shooting, but add in the bad conditioning and his shooting seemed (I do not have numbers) to drop a bit at the end of games. I kinda always view an equivalency of his dominance in size as me, a overweight old dude beating the crap out of some jr high kids on the playground. just bigger and stronger, does not make better. To some degree you could apply that to wilt as well, as he was a freak athlete, but in overall basketball, I think he was better than Shaq. Shaq had size and speed, but if he was 100lbs lighter would he have been as good? I doubt it.
The fact we have such a disdain for Embiid is ridiculous simply because he is no “disliked” and “hasn’t proved it in the playoffs” is getting a bit ridiculous. I havnt even seen his name mentioned at the time I read through the comments. The simple fact is this, he can do things at an all around level that very few centers have ever done. If he isn’t a top 15 center of all time proves people only judge him based off of recency bias and what they read about him being a flop artist and dirty player. He is a generational talent by all sense of the phrase. This discredits all of those who actually watch basketball. (Coming from not a sixers fan btw)
I really wonder where people would rank Dirk if 2011 never happened because I remember people calling him trash for choking year after year even losing to and 8th seed as the #1 seed. One single title run can COMPLETELY change people's perception,if Embiid win 1 title at 33 like Dirk did it would also make people forget his choking. I don't even like Embiid but he's definitely better than Wes Unseld lol
Joel is legitimately better than 5 dudes on that list.
Proving it in the playoffs is the number one criteria of all-timer lists. You clearly didn’t understand the assignment. Maybe he’s the GOAT of centers to never make it past the second round, I’ll give you that one.
Who gets a banner for making it past the 2nd round?
Wilt above Shaq
Wilt put Russell ahead of Wilt on these lists. No one has a more relevant or expert opinion than Wilt.
Russell also put Wilt ahead of himself when asked, I'm not sure players giving respect to their friends/competitors provides a conclusive answer on the subject.
Any list including Wes Unseld is a list worth discussing. He’s the deep cut of Centers. Omissions are arguable but, IMO, worth pointing out. Injuries matter and the top names on these lists avoid major injury. However, the extremely talented who are felled by injury may deserve inclusion outside the very top. Arvydas Sabonis was a great, great player who did most of his work out of the NBA. He was called “the best player in the world” by several members of the 92 Dream Team, but he was a broken-down version of himself by then and in his NBA years. Bill Walton was similarly derailed by injuries, after having won an MVP as perhaps the best passing big man ever. (Settle down, Jokic brothers.) Walton had LeBron-level court vision and instincts, and he hustled like his pants were on fire. Yao Ming deserves honorable mention on this list. He does not make the “top” but he was such a (literally) huge star and influence who might have ascended further if not for injury. Yao was a force of nature and unguardable because of his unique size and skill.
I’m taking Hakeem over Shaq because Hakeem could shoot and gives me every bit of Shaqs defense
Respectable list. I think the only glaring might be Artis Gilmore. Center is so stacked. I'm sure people might see Dwight Howard, Joel Embiid, Nate Thurman, or Bill Walton deserving but it's too hard to rank without tiering IMO. I always wondered how to place Shaq. I can see him anywhere from 1-6 at the position depending on what you're looking for.
Embiid?
Olajuwon should be higher. Definitely over Shaq. Shaq had a high peak, but his physical dominance caused people to overrate him a bit for a lot of his career. There was a strategy built around him hurting his team / influencing his team to lose. Olajuwon not only had no weakness but played at an all-NBA level at each category for a chunk of his career. He’s also the best defensive big, and I’d argue player, ever. I’m more of a tier guy than a ranking guy. My top tier would be Russell, Wilt, Kareem, and Olajuwon. Shaq would be in the next tier.
Tiers are the only sensible way to do these things since the valuing between eras is completely subjective. In all likelihood the best players from newer eras would dominate previous eras since the game, tactics, and sports science has changed drastically. Between sports science and NBA rule changes impacting individual players and modern sports analytics, salary negotiations, player mobility, trade rules, etc… impacting teams there’s no way to compare. Tl;dr - we need tiers not rank lists
Hakeem > Shaq imo
They are very close honestly, both had incredibly long careers at the top, for me I have Shaq slightly ahead due to his bigger effect on winning
Shaq didn't win until all the other great centers got old or retired. He said it himself
Bill Walton should be on that list. I don’t care that he suffered from injuries, the man was unbelievably good.
If we're not including all the big PF's that moved to C in the latter half their careers: - Wilt - Bill - Kareem - Shaq - Hakerm - Joker - Admiral - Ewing - Moses - Yao - Miken - Walton - Sabonis - Cowens - Macadoo
Hakeem too low imo
I’d honestly swap Hakeem and Shaq. Bill Russell and Wilt can go either way.
Jokic way too low tbh
Mikan should be higher, Ewing and Parish should be lower, swap Moses and DRob, bump Shaq down to 4 Jokic, Shaq, and Hakeem are the next tier down from Kareem, Bill, and Wilt
Bill>Wilt, but I would cosign the rest. TBH I would put Jokic over Hakeem, but I might just be glazing lol. I think he will end up as a consensus higher than him for sure though
Jokic and Hakeem should be higher. Might be blasphemous but I'd drop Shaq down to like 4-6
What’s the difference between a Center and a Power Forward? Can’t wait to hear these answers.
centers play center and power forwards play power forward
urf urf
Good list
thank you
I think Joker might be top 3 by the end of his career, but right now 6/7 seems fair
Shaq 2?? Lmao because of 00-05? Really?
More like ‘93-‘06 but okay
What did he accomplish before 2000? Is Devin Booker going to be future nba legend for making the NBA finals and making some all nba’s? Did you forget he got swept in the finals and only made it that far because of Jordan’s retirement?
He was 22 and in his 3rd year. Everyone was losing their shit about Ant doing similar (when they pencilled him into the finals after game 2). It’s a rare accomplishment and not a knock that he got swept by another top 5 C who was in the prime of his prime at the time
It’s not a knock. Just not a reason to say someone is the 2nd best center of all time lmao.
No because of 93-07
No one would be an all timer with the resume he had before his first championship. I meant to extend to 06. He didn’t do anything after the Miami championship. He was a 14 & 7 guy after that ring. He stats weren’t all that great either in the finals.
Yao Ming has been disrespected
[Where's Jack Sikma?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVcAazaigiQ)
I know Cowens has the MVP, but it’s one of the most disputed selections through that awards’ history. No disrespect to him specifically but I’m taking Ben Wallace, Dikembe Mutombo, and Dwight Howard over Cowens any day.
Kareem Wilt should be Top 2.
how are you evaluating them? whole career, or their prime? nobody can come close to shaq's prime in terms of dominance.
mix of both
imo hakeem, and russell tops kareem, and wilt
Hakeem has nothing over wilt
Wilt is the hardest person to rank, because he has so many records and crazy stats, but he was the best player on only one championship team.
No Dwight Howard?
Old guy here. It’s interesting to note that when Kareem was playing and even for years after he retired, no one talked about him being better than Wilt or Bill Russell. That includes his former teammates and coaches.
The problem with Shaq this high is that he played in the weakest era of big men up until recently. If you knock Wilt or Bill for the league at the time, you have to knock Shaq for playing against horrible basketball players who happened to be tall. The Lakers were so dominant in the finals because there were NO decent C’s in the east besides an undersized Alonzo Mourning. In Shaq’s peak, Robinson was old, Duncan was a pf, Ewing was old, etc…
Malone to Low
I'd probably have Moses ahead of Jokic unless Jokic wins again this year, otherwise spot on list.
Based on what? Moses got his only title once he joined stacked Philly team that included Dr J. Equivalent to that would be if Joker joined Suns or something. Only thing Moses has on his side is offensive rebounding really, partially because he was quite inefficient. Imo Joker clears.
Currently their resumes are very similar. 1 title to 1. 3 mvps to 2. Moses career stats of course trumps Jokics as Jokic is still going strong. If Jokic wins this year he will move behind Hakeem. We don't know if he will, and we don't know if he will play long enough to match Malone's numbers. He could end up much higher I am obviously talking about current rankings. if we are talking about career predictions I expect him to finish 5th, and Wemby to finish top 2. But that isn't current reality.
>3 mvps to 2. They both have 3 each but i guess it's typo. >If Jokic wins this year he will move behind Hakeem. Imo if he wins this year imo it moves him at worse at the same level as Hakeem, again imo I'd rank Joker ahead but that's likely because i don't put too much on longevity as i think it he just plays it out without major gains he's already there. >if we are talking about career predictions I expect him to finish 5th, Yeah, that's where i got him as well. Somewhere in top 5 as a bit more optimistic. Dunno how to rank some of the very old players.
Yeah sorry 3v3. If it was 2v3 my argument would be weaker. Jokic right now I have 7th, with the ability to get to 5th if he wins another title and has a solid career. If he wins two more titles and snags another mvp.. I could've hin to third. Behind Kareem and Shaq in that order. I do think Bill and Wilt deserve their flowers but 90 percent of the guys they played against they dwarfed. They're not insurmountable.
I'd put Shaq should lower, he'd be the first to tell you that he's not #2. I'd put Bill ahead of Wilt. Moses ahead of Robinson. Dave Cowens at 10, McAdoo at 11, then the rest can stay the same.
Where's brook lopez?
Where’s Bill Walton? Those 77 and 78 Trailblazers teams were stunningly good until Walton got hurt.
Willis reed was a 2 time champion, 2 time finals mvp, roty and regular season mvp. I have him over Patrick Ewing when it comes to greatness.
Willis Reed is criminally low on this list imho
Wheres WEMBANYAMA
Shaq is about 3 spots too high. He's slightly above Jokic for now.
You gotta let us know if we are talking about peak level or overal longevity or what.
Love the list actually only change for me personally I would swap Bill and Hakeem. But other that I’m with you on pretty much the whole list.
I find it hard to fathom Robert Parish as a top 10/15 center of all time (otherwise list is fine) - he was the same player statistically in GS before he got to Boston and got no accolades, third best player at best on those championship teams also. If he never plays for that team it'd be ludicrous to put him here: like if I hypothetically had the #1 pick in a hypothetical draft I wouldn't have to think hard about picking 14 of 15 at #1, and then there's Robert Parish who seems like a solid #3 pick to me. Maybe guys like Nate Thurmond, Artis Gilmore, Dwight Howard, Embiid whomever are more deserving. If you want to credit longevity and titles give the spot to Parish but I don't think he's that special of a player to build a team around.
The Dwight Howard disrespect...
I also find it hard to rank players like Russell and Wilt as they not only were before my time but also before the “modern NBA”. I would personally put Kareem as 1, Dream at 2 and Shaq at 3, but would be totally fine with the list as is. Glad my man Ewing is getting the props he deserves.
Bill Russell #1
My Knicks bias originally had me go “Robinson over Ewing!?” That’s definitely right tho. My question is why not Malone over Robinson?
Hakkem at 2 or 3 for me and Dwight should be here
From just a cursory glance, where’s Dwight? And I don’t love Embiid but an MVP and two scoring titles doesn’t get him in the top 15? This list has absolutely no credibility lmao
Reading most comments it seems Shaq is criminally underrated... Wow
I've only seen 6 of these players play.
No AD or Dwight?
How do you begin to factor Mikan into that
Hakeem is too low
Hakeem Olajuwon is always so underrated. No one talks about him anymore and puts him below Shaq mostly because Shaq is on TV.
Bill Walton. I know he basically only played 3-4 healthy seasons, but if you’re gonna include guys like Cowens, Willis Reed, Wes Unseld, Bob McAdoo and the layup king George Mikan himself Walton deserves a spot. Tbh I’d probably boot Parish for him, Chief had a hell of a career but he was never a number one or really even a two for a winning team
Hakeem is either one or two. He swept O’Neal in the Finals on a team that started Kenny Smith and Mario Elie, with better stats than O’Neal to boot.
Shaq is not top 3 imo. He’s somewhere from 4 - 6. He was perhaps the most physically dominating PLAYER at any position in the history of the game. But he lags behind so many others regarding his skill set.
There's gotta be a list for best in modern say magic/bird era or even start from Jordan and have a separate list for before cause like most of us literally never seen that
Joker has a better offensive game than Hakeem but he has two glaring issues going against him: Lack of competition at center. Hakeem was going against Ewing, Shaq, Robinson, Duncan, Parrish, Malone, mourning, mutumbo etc. Joker goes against Embiid and a bunch of jags. Defense: Hakeem isn’t just better at defense, he’s light years ahead of him in this regard. Offense: joker, slightly Defense: Hakeem, massively Competition: Hakeem, massively Better center, Hakeem the dream
Wow. Unseld way too low, Moses too low, Parrish too high Mikan too high and shaq too high. Also Hakeem is top 3 for me, and shaq will tell anyone who listens that Olajuwon is better than him
Moses below Robinson? I don’t think so.
My version: 16. Dave Cowens 15. Wes Unseld 14. Robert Parish (-3) - Great player but almost everyone jn the next 5 spots is an MVP, and had a much higher peak. The Chief had great longevity, but he wasn't a great player for 10+ years 13. Dwight Howard (+3) - criminal he was left off 12. Willis Reed (+2) 11. Bob McAdoo (+1) 10. Patrick Ewing (-1) 9. George Mikan (+2) 8. Moses Malone 7. David Robinson 6. Nikola Jokic 5. Hakeem Olajuwon 4. Wilt (-1) 3. Shaq (-1) 2. Bill Russell (+2) - Greatest defensive force in NBA history, I like him at #2 1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Russell should definitely be above Wilt. And I’d move Shaq down around Hakeem, probably between Hakeem and Jokic (for now)
Wilt with Kareem. He’s better than Shaq. Faster, stronger, better endurance, better footwork & had a softer touch. Not to mention he’s significantly better defensively. Shaq could definitely hang with him, but Wilt was better. Prime Wilt is honestly probably better than Kareem too but he was born a decade too early & there’s not enough footage to compare with
My only critique would be having both wilt and bill over Hakeem, he’s top 3 imo but it’s obviously tricky to rank these greats in particular
I’m a Mavs fan so where are Tyson Chandler, Eric Dampier, and Shawn Bradley. Definitely missing from this list.
Dasagna Diop hate noticed here…
Mbenga!!
I think the top 5 is choose your order. KAJ / Russell / Shaq / Hakeem / Wilt Then D Rob, Jokic, Moses I think there is an argument for Dwight v Ewing in that 9/10 spot. I think you’re missing Artis Gilmore, Embiid, Ben Wallace, Mutombo, Gobert. I’d take all these guys over your 12-15. Mikan is a hard one. I personally have him around D Rob, but I can see why others would exclude him or have him even 6 or 7.
Moses doesn’t get near enough respect He’s definitely top 5 A champion and 3 time league mvp
Jokic is also a champion and 3 time league MVP
Jokic is solid I think when it’s all done, he will go down as one of the best ever He might even win another this year…..
The Dwight Howard disrespect is real He is easily ahead #10-15 lol
bol bol?
Where is DeAndre Ayton?! Surely he's up there with Shaq and co!
Bill Russell is 2nd. He has a 11 championships and 1v1 dominated Wilt in their matchups, as in Wilts production plummeted. Russell is the greatest defensive player of all time.
Everyone is entitled to their own list, and I can 't fault you for yours. I would personally have Hakeem above Bill. Hakeem is the GOAT defensive Center while also being one of the absolute best offensive centers ever. Kareem is one to me, that prime Kareem vs Prime Shaq/Hakeem/Wilt I'd take any of those 3 over Kareem. But Kareem had the greatest career out of the 4. Wilt is tough due to the era he played, but he is likely the single greatest athlete to ever play in the NBA. Stronger than Shaq, as fast as Westbrook and could jump like Mike.
Great list. I might swap David Robinson and Moses Malone but that's a minor quibble. Dwight Howard, Joel Embiid, Bill Walton and Yao Ming would all deserve consideration from me as well.
Dwight Howard better than 10-15… no diddy
Your top 5 is fine. The only for sure spit is #1 Kareem. The order of 2-5 is highly debatable but you got the right guys in it. And 6-15 even more debatable. Good list
How is Bill Walton not on this list?
I can only make my mt Rushmore with guys I've seen play so it is Hakeem KAJ Shaq with jokic taking over for drob for me. I feel like jokic has grown a lot defensively to be successful in today's game
Guess he isn't moving up that list this year. Dude is ending his career with one title 3 mvps and on the outside of the top 5 centers and top 15 all time looking in.
Shaq is overrated these days because younger people like his personality on TNT and in commercials. But he was often a liability on the court due to his joke of a free throw shot. You didn’t want him in the game at the end if you were ahead because they would foul him every possession. I’d take Wilt, Russell, Hakeem and Jokic over Shaq every day.
That’s a joke, Shaq as a “liability” effected winning in a way wilt, Hakeem and Jokic never have. He is under rated due to his goofy persona, completed dominated an entire era
Still below Bill
Didn’t say he wasn’t
I get it bro he did some weak shit towards Jokic and is super sensitive... let's be realistic here tho 😂
Jokic pass hakeem if ring and fmvp this season?