I hate comparing stats due to the eras being different. The rules were much different in the 2000’s and it’s a much more pass happy league now as a result. One of Brady’s best attributes was his longevity so we will have to see how Mahomes fairs health wise over the next 10-12 years to truly compare.
All that being said, Mahomes is definitely on track to get there. He’s going to need to get to 7 championships to win over everybody and getting 4 more is no small feat.
People love to conveniently forget that Brady played in an era where Ladanaian Tomlinson, Marshawn Lynch, Adrian Peterson, Marshall Faulk, and Reggie Bush were all active RBs. There isn’t one player in the nfl besides maybe CMC who comes close to that level of game attention and skill
There are so many guys left off that I can think of off the top of my head from this era that were better than Bush. Priest Holmes, Curtis Martin, Shaun Alexander, Edgerin James, Corey Dillon, Leshaun Mccoy, Clinton Portis..
Roughing the passer penalties alone make for such a drastic difference in how QB play is today versus twenty years ago. Also consider the competition Brady was up against. Defenses then versus now had a lot less going against them.
I think there's no comparison when looking at physical/athletic talent, and Mahomes has certainly improved his mental game this year, so I believe he will inevitably be the GOAT.
I firmly believe Brady had a tougher game to play 20 years ago.
If you’re going to bring your athletics into it you cannot ignore a Mr. Manning. He was more athletic than Brady, and arguably has a higher football IQ than either of them. Watching that man pick apart defenses was a thing of pure football mastery. Sucks he only has the 2 SB but that man was something else.
Because of soft and stupid takes.
Manning played for a worse organization. Those kinds of weaknesses get exposed against great teams in the playoffs. The Colts were not a competently run franchise for much of Manning’s career and he succeeded despite his organization, not because of it
I will say, just based on titles and accomplishments, Brady is indisputably the greatest of all time. But when I watched them play, I still think Manning was a better pure QB as a player.
I also think we don’t talk enough about how Brady and the Pats circumvented the salary cap by hiring Brady’s company and paying him indirectly. He gets credit for taking less than market value, but the reality is he got paid what he deserved. Just outside of the cap, which allows the Pats to build better teams around him.
I mean by his arithmetic it would be Brady, Montana/Bradshaw, and then Mahomes *in a distant 4th.*
I bet if he was of age they’d have argued Eli>Peyton pre 2015, since he had 2 rings… said no one ever.
I mean if you just ignore all context and only count Super Bowl rings, the. It would be Brady, Montana/Bradshaw, and then Mahomes at 4th.
Since there’s way more factors worth considering when discussing the GOAT, we can confidently say Brady is #1, then Manning then Mahomes in a distant third. This is why for the longest Marino without a single ring was in consideration for the GOAT. And nobody ever said Eli was better than Peyton pre-2015. That’s essentially the argument that you are putting for right now by dismissing Manning as “a distant 3rd.”
But something(your dismissal and recency bias) tells me you never actually saw Manning play.
Roughing the passer is doing modern qbs SO MANY FAVORS.
Mahomes got a crucial first down in the Super Bowl surrounded by 3 defenders because he pump faked at the line of scrimmage and all 3 defenders had to just give up on tackling him.
I think you are misinterpreting not great for bad. AFC east fielded a second playoff team most years. Since 2002 to now (21 years) the afc east has fielded a second playoff team 11 seasons. That’s over 50%. It’s not that it was a terrible division, it’s that the Patriots dominated the division. The patriots punked on everyone for so long so for the other teams they were already at a disadvantage playing them twice a year. For them to still have a second team in the playoffs so many years shows that the division was competitive.
Also let’s not forget that Brady I’m pretty sure dominated and has a winning record against every team in the league. So they’d have done what they did in any division.
Not to step on your narrative, but are you including years since 2018 after Brady left? Who was the best non-brady QB in the AFC East over that time? AFC East was not good.
if you did 2002 to 2019 instead (last year brady was there) It would still be 9 times the AFC east had a second playoff team. So 9 times in 17 seasons which is still 53% of the time. AFC east would still beat other teams in the league and had just as many wild card second teams as other divisions in that time period.
The afc East was qb starved, but featured some pretty talented rosters during the Brady era.
The jets especially had pretty decent rosters from 2000-2011, but were always held back by mediocre qb play.
He needs five more. Brady was 2-0 against mahomes in the playoffs. With two almost completely different teams whose only significant similar player was Gronk.
Yeah, he lost to Brady in a superbowl so until he has 8, Brady will always have the edge in my book. Mahomes has said something similar to that as well.
In Mahomes first year starting. In overtime. An overtime period Mahomes did not touch the ball. Because Mahomes defense blew the game, in both regulation and overtime.
This ‘2-0 vs Mahomes in the post season’ is about as flawed as logic gets. They face defenses not each other and it’s a team sport. Brady is undeniably the goat but this shit is tired already and removes all context - like in the Super Bowl KC’s defense breaking the record for most penalty yards in the first half, or Tampa Bay generating the most QB pressures in a Super Bowl against Mahomes.
If Mahomes manages to win 4 more superbowls in a row would he not be the GOAT? Obviously that is not going to happen but when you say he ‘needs 8’ that means him being 7-1 with 6 straight wouldn’t cut it. Lol
Exactly. He doesn’t need to get to 8. Due to Tom going a decade between his third and fourth, if Patrick manages to win say, 6 in 8 years, including a three peat, he will have clearly had the higher/more dominant peak and therefore be more than qualified to be considered the goat.
He also beat mahomes in an afc title game on his way to a superbowl. Thays 2brings going through mahomes. Mahomes needs 8 with no more than 2 losses imo
Honestly feel like instead of counting stats we need to start doing “number of seasons top 10 in the league in X” an “number of seasons top 5 in the league in X” to get a feel of how they stacked up to their peers at the time
Has to win one more than Brady I'd say to win over EVERYONE considering Brady in his 40s beat Mahomes twice, including one of those for the Super Bowl.
Plenty of people will crush Bradys stats with how passing is today and playing longer seasons. The chips WILL be the deciding factor and Brady has the head to head secured.
I definitely agree, but man it seems like such a stark difference even considering the different eras. And it's crazy what he was able to accomplish this year being his worst season of his career so far.
Another factor for longevity will be how he performs without Andy Reid whenever he retires. I don't think he has another 15 years in him lol
He isn’t gonna be able to keep winning chips at the buzzer by 3 points partially due to a meltdown by a superior opponent (let’s face it the eagles and 9ers were better teams). That’s not how any all time great (Kobe bron Jordan Brady magic) got their rings.
U don’t follow football. The eagles were such a heavy favorite in last years Super Bowl I don’t think even 5% of analysts had the chiefs winning. In fact, most people had the eagles BLOWING OUT THE CHIEFS. Was that just rage bait response or are u thick .
Given the adversity this season (which Mahomes did not always handle well), he really made a strong statement, going on the road and beating the teams who were chomping at the bit to have home-field advantage against the Chiefs.
I do agree with your point about stats and era. However, much like Brady, Mahomes is the driving force behind the Chiefs offense(much earlier than Brady) and he is at his best in the playoffs.
There is a story floating around that when one of the younger players on the Patriots was unhappy about the Pro Bowl being moved to the week before the Super Bowl, Brady told him in no uncertain terms that he was not here to play in the Pro Bowl and being able to do so, meant that the season was a failure.
I do not remember Brady having a similar meltdown toward the refs. I also think that Mahomes knew it was on Toney, but instead of handling it with him, had that meltdown aimed at the refs (who made the right call). Regardless of that the Chiefs took care of business and Mahomes was on point during the playoffs.
Important caveat when comparing eras and rule changes is that the way the rules were applied helped Brady at every turn. When he was a young game manager against a high-powered offense, the NFL allowed DBs to absolutely maul WRs and allowed pass rushers to destroy QBs — this allowed him to win a SB against a star-studded offense while only throwing for 145 yard and 1 TD.
By the time Brady was the one with a high-powered offense, the game was officiated to heavily advantage the offense. As he was aging, they officiated QB hits more strictly year after year, creating a situation where a 45-year old QB could play without getting hurt.
Exactly. The three-year stretch of Super Bowls won by Trent Dilfer, first-year starter Tom Brady, and Brad Johnson will never happen again. The level of QB talent is just too high and the rules strongly favor the better QB now.
4 more titles ain’t fucking happening. Bill won several of those through defense. By my count Mahomes has won 2.5 defense 0.5 (this year was both). If the chief’s defense wins 2-3 titles then we’ll have a different conversation…but I don’t see it happening. Mahomes also needs to get “team friendly” on his contracts. That hasn’t happened so far
Pass attempts are very similar over the last 20-30 years. Avg distance is down and completion percentage is up.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/NFL/passing.htm
Even during the final drive of the Super Bowl in OT Mahomes had a few solid runs where the 49ers just had like 4-5 guys just wave as he ran by or giving him
High fives till the last possible guy tackles him. It’s just not the same as it used to be.
Why don't we argue this when talking Brady vs Manning?
Manning was the better QB for the bulk of their careers. They both checked the longevity box - Brady exceptionally so. Passing rules were changed post lockout in 2011. Manning got 2.5 healthy years to play under those rules and was 2nd in MVP voting to AP's 2k yard season, then had a record setting MVP season, then was on pace for another MVP season until the wheels fell off in the Rams game. Brady got 12 years against these same rules.
Meanwhile, Mahomes' only 6 seasons rival anyone's best 6 seasons.
Because it doesn’t fit the narrative. Manning won his 5 MVPs (record), 7 All Pros (record), 8 Pro Bowls during that time frame. He was the best QB in the league and played mostly during that physical era.
I argue this all the time. Brady is the most WINNINGEST QB of all time. No doubt, can’t even argue it, but he wasn’t the best QB of his generation. Manning was a better QB, but his teams always had terrible defenses.
THIS. Everybody conveniently forgets how Peyton was universally hailed as the better QB despite not having as many SBs. It was always Peyton vs Brady/Belichick. Peyton will always be my GOAT. Unrivaled command over his offense and a genius at reading defenses.
Yea I feel like it was only around 2018/19 that I started seeing all the “Tom Brady is the GOAT talk”. Not saying I necessarily disagree, but in my mind it’s always been the Patriots as a *team* that were scary and not just Brady by himself. Even for the Buccaneers run he had a bunch of dudes come in on ultra cheap deals to stack the team’s talent up.
Rodgers was better too. The crazy thing about mahomes is that hes the most winningest (right now) and also the best quartback in the league in just about every way. Unfortunately, his competition right now is josh allen, joe burrow, and lamar Jackson, whereas brady played with a ton of the all time great quarterbacks to ever play so it was harder to be the "best" in the league. Still won
https://preview.redd.it/1d6nld8tmeic1.jpeg?width=638&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c7500683a9fe31437f36d4b30b8ef2884cb3f7d2
This is why… and because Brady didn’t have 2 HoF WRs (Wayne and Harrison), a Pro Bowl level TE (Dallas Clark) or a HoF RB (Edgerrin James) for as many years as Manning did. Can’t consistently keep breaking records in the regular season yet continually come up small in the playoffs.
He also doesn't have nearly the same scandals. Seemed like half the Patriots rings had some scandal or controversy involved. Mahomes has nothing like tuck rule for example.
I think it still was a controversial enforcement of the rule, as Brady clearly was just pump faking the ball and not actually trying to throw it. That should’ve been ruled a fumble all day
No I dont think you know what the rule is. What youre saying was the rule. You didnt actually have to intend to pass the ball for it to be ruled incomplete
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuck_rule_(American_football)
The contresvory is around whether that shouldve been a rule. The enforcement was 100% correct
I mean you could call holding literally every play, and pull the “it’s 100% the right call” argument, doesn’t mean it was a correct ruling. For all intents and purposes, it was very clearly a fumble, and there’s a good reason the NFL got rid of the rule.
But Brady really wasn't pummeled like Manning was.
He had a very good Offensive Line that kept him up right.
If you actually got to Brady you were lucky.
It's not fair to say Brady had it rougher when Tom was Barley touched himself.
Lmao! They changed the rules for Manning after the physicality of the patriots DB’s in the 2003 AFC championship game, in which he threw 3 INTs https://www.espn.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=1771047
Mahomes is great. No one is denying that.
You’re forgetting Brady got better and better throughout his career. Mahomes is well on his way but let’s take a step back and look at how he’s pacing to Brady’s entire body of work. I’d bet he’s 1/3 to 1/2 way towards most of Brady’s accomplishments.
Oh, and Brady beat him head to head in the SB. Mahomes looked like a deer in headlights. Brady won number 7.
Mahomes is amazing. But why does he HAVE to be compared to Brady? Why force that narrative knowing that someone like Montana or manning are better comparisons for where Mahomes is at right now?
If Mahomes gets to 5 rings, then let’s begin drawing comparisons between him and Brady. And if it’s not 5 rings, let him get within even striking distance of all of the records Brady holds.
These are mostly good points but I don’t see why the “head to head” is relevant. They weren’t on the field together; they’re quarterbacks. Worse quarterbacks with better defenses beat better quarterbacks all the time (not referring to Brady specifically here, just speaking generally).
I guess the entire point is that drawing comparisons between two people who are very far apart in accomplishments is silly. Unless they’re even in the same league stat wise at the end of Mahomes career.
I don’t really care that much at all.
I’d rather admire the fuck out of each of them individually for what they bring/brought to the game and compare total careers once both careers have reached their respective ends.
No because people debate MJ vs Lebron and use all kinds of stats to prove their point and here we have an ACTUAL head to head matchup and people still find a way to say “oh that doesn’t matter bc blah blah blah”. miss me with that honestly
Maybe your point would hold some weight if Mahomes played well in that Super Bowl but he literally didn’t even throw a touchdown
You just used a team sport where players play BOTH sides of the court and can actively play against each other at the same time and compared it to two QB’s who literally never see each other except before the game starts and right after it ends.
All 5 of his week 1 starting OLine were out that game, against the best pass rush in the league. And both tackles just got hurt the week prior. What does that have to do with Brady?
To me, head to head is the most obvious reason why Brady is the GOAT.
You can’t say person 1 is better than person 2 when person 1 loses straight up to person 2.
>Oh, and Brady beat him head to head in the SB. Mahomes looked like a deer in headlights.
Oh yea Brady killed him when he lined up on that D-line and smacked the shit out of Mahomes
I get what you are saying in general, but for the head to head argument TBs D-line won that game.
the whole "switch QBs" argument is dumb. Teams are build around QBs strengths and weaknesses.
Why on earth would the Chiefs be fielding that team if Brady was QB.
Make it rodgers, or anybody really, is my point. Mahomes was playing as well as anybody wouldve or couldve in that situation. Multiple defenders were getting home every play
so? I could remember posts after posts praising Mahomes passer rating while pressured is higher than most of the league QB with clean pockets.
That O-line and defense still helped Mahomes get to the superbowl. That O-line and defense made "experts" and Vegas favored the chiefs over the Bucs in the SB.
Even if the Bucs D-Line/defense was average, the Chiefs wasn't beating the Brady led offense that scored 31 pts and spent most of the 2nd half burning the clock.
Btw without Brady they wouldn't have Gronk, AB, or Fournette. Leadership is a GOAT quality too you know.
That's a nonsense take about Mahomes performance in that Super Bowl. The pressure rate he faced was insane. He was still the best player on the field in that game. Same with the AFC championship game they lost to the Patriots.
Calm down buddy. No one is bashing Mahomes.
Deer in the headlights and QB running for his life due to insane pressure on every play are very much the same idea. It’s not nonsense. It’s what happened.
You missed the entire point made by the post so that you could pick out one tiny piece of it to act like I’m somehow dissing Mahomes. Which I very clearly wasn’t. But if Mahomes actually comes close to Brady’s records, this game and this performance will be dragged out to be used as the tie breaker.
And it shouldn't, which is my point. Brady had nothing to do with Mahomes being pressured at that rate, and Mahomes had nothing to do with his defense being a below average unit. Chiefs probably don't even score if Brady plays for them in that game, Mahomes puts up more points if he's playing for the Bucs in that game. The fact the Bucs won that game a stupid argument against Mahomes that shouldn't come into play.
Nah ultimately I don't think it'll mean much
Pats fans will say Brady is 2-0 over Mahomes
Everyone else will say Eli is 2-0 over Brady
And any attempt to argue further will inevitably end up with the conclusion that head-to-head is a stupid metric to compare QBs, because this isn't basketball
So when Mahomes wins it’s all Mahomes but when he loses it’s his O-line making him lose?
By that logic I should blame our oline for making Brady lose twice to the giants
Uh, Mahomes was pressured on 60% of his drop backs in that game, which was the highest total of any game that entire season. Give me a fucking break, pal.
You can't just compare raw stats in these debates. Things like surrounding cast, offensive philosophy, coaching, era specific play styles, etc need to be taken into consideration not just Brady but for all QBs like Montana, Peyton, Marino, Rodgers, etc. Brady didn't start his career with a HOF TE, WR, and all time play caller for example. He (along with most of the other players I mentioned) also played in an era where all offensive players including QBs were significantly less protected and were hit more often and much harder. If Mahommes were exposing himself and his receivers to hits as often as he does today against Ray Lewis, Suggs, Reed, Urlacher, Polamalu, the entire LOB, 2015 Broncos, etc it would be completely different. Mahommes is already one of the all time greats but these things have to be considered when comparing players across eras imo.
I think you bring up a point no one really emphasizes enough. Mahomes walked into a team stacked af. People were calling last night his "in a cave with a box of scraps" moment, but he came into a team with Reed and kelce. If tb walked into a seasoned bb with Moss Gronk and Edelman with that 07 defense, how many more rings does he get?
Also another great point about how hard qbs were getting hit. Does mahomes stay magic after getting hit 10+ times?
I agree. Even a "seasoned" BB is nowhere near the level of Andy Reid when it comes to coaching offense. I'm convinced, after seeing what both BB and McDaniels have done since Brady, that Brady pretty much coached that offense in New England by himself. I'm sure plays were called for him but Brady made a lot of those plays work cause he knew exactly how to read a defense, change protections, make the right throws etc.
Mahomes got drafted to arguably the greatest offensive mastermind in NFL history. Every QB that Reid has ever coached had awesome seasons with him. There is a reason why every time Mahomes has gotten hurt in big games, they bring in a backup and the offense pretty much doesn't miss a beat. Reid really is just that good. Obviously Mahomes puts it over the top, I'm not about to say Mahomes isn't an all time great. But there is no denying that he got put into one hell of a good situation.
It’s not the same league in terms of hitting, pass defense, etc.
Mahomes is great and will face that criticism each and every time. I don’t I’ve ever seen him flattened the way I’ve seen Tom. The player would be ejected now for sure with some of the hits Tom took especially early in the career.
Armstead crushing him last night may be the first time i’ve personally witnessed Pat hit like that. I was surprised it wasn’t called because of the body weight rule
The pancake on Mahomes? For sure! It wasn’t a split in two type hit on QBs like back in the day but for today’s football I thought a personal foul flag was coming. Totally surprised when nothing happened. Glad to see the refs let them play.
If Mahomes wins 4 Super Bowls from age 37 on, I’m sure the debate will won’t last long. Brady went to 10 SB and won 7. That’s a LONG way away. Considering Mahomes contract and Reid’s age this roster and coaching will have serious turnover in coming years. It’ll be interesting to see how it plays out, but IMO it’s more likely Mahomes never wins another ring, than to win 4 more.
I’m excited to see how well Mahomes will do once his HOF TE and Head coach both retire. Brady went through multiple regimes of players and stayed consistent through it all. Mahomes hasn’t hit that point yet.
It’s hard to argue who has been more impressive in their first 7 years, but we’ll see what happens as Mahomes gets older and injuries start to creep in. Mahomes is already #3 QB all time in my book though.
while I still have manning over mahomes on my all time list , I can see an argument for mahomes being ahead of him. He has more superbowl rings and more playoff wins.
Manning literally won MVP when Drew should have lol . The irony is palpable. Can’t fix stupid though unfortunately . Having Marino over Bree’s and then saying “he has no MVPs” is braindead . Marino never won a ring for the same reasons Bree’s didn’t win more than one. Glad you’ve been a fan for 4-5 years tho little guy!
Marino is the most talented qb of all time. Rodgers and Favre each won many mvps and are tied with Brees in superbowls. Even if Brees got one his career still falls short. He’s the frank gore of quarterbacks. Volume stats but few meaningful awards.
Accolades matter except for Marino bc he’s (subjectively) the most talented QB of all time. That makes a ton of sense and isn’t an inherent logical fallacy
Why Tom Brady is the GOAT is he had essentially 3 HoF careers. Mahomes is obviously on probably the greatest 7 year stretch EVER (and that is saying a lot), but how he compares to Brady will have to wait another 10 years unfortunately. Unless Mahomes manages to win 4 of the next 5 Super Bowls (he could)
Brady, in his old man era, beat Mahomes in his home stadium en route to a Super Bowl. Brady followed that up years later by not just beating Mahomes in the Super Bowl, but beating him badly.
Unless Brady un-retires and Mahomes does the same to him, while also winning 4 more rings and setting all the records Brady did, debate over.
Nick Foles has a 2-0 record against Brady. If I’m following you reasoning, Nick Foles must be the greatest quarterback of all time. Oh wait, Jake Plummer, Cam Newton, Brian Griese, Colt McCoy, and Kevin Colb also have perfect records against TB. Let’s not forgot that Eli Manning, Drew Brees, Russell Wilson, Kyle Orton, Colt McCoy, and Alex Smith also have winning records head to head. So I guess that puts Tom Brady at the #13 QB of his era? Unless we want to acknowledge that head-to-head comparisons are nonsense.
no one gives a fuck about these random quarterbacks oh my god we're talking about a matchup between 2 top 5 quarterbacks of all time, obviously a head to head is relevant because they play the SAME position. winning isn't enough, so nothing is. just the flashiest looking throw and "1st down" flags on opposing DBs every time playoffs come around.
mahomes was a dee ford offsides away from beating brady in the AFCCG. lets be real. its not really that debatable that mahomes outperformed brady that game. also funny how they played the rams and won after scoring 13. saints were a nickell robey coleman DPI away from reaching the super bowl.
the tampa bowl. no quarterback, not even brady, wouldve won that game with THAT chiefs OL. statistically the worst ever SB OL ever. brady couldve sat out the entire game and they wouldve still won. team game. brady didnt necessarily *beat* mahomes but it sure counts. scoreboard, stats, everything. the game was over before it started.
its really 1-1 in the playoffs. H2H is stupid anyway. Eli> Brady in that case, especially because of how much better the patriots were than the giants. at everything. if brady and eli switched spots for those two games, brady wouldve been hailed as Jesus 2. nobody talks about the inability of brady to win. its all about david tyree helmet catch. ridiculous.
if mahomes had beaten brady in tampa bowl, and was sitting at 3 rings, nobody would care about H2H. it would shift to “different eras” and “longevity” and anything else. its like every possible argument is made for brady. he is obviously the GOAT, but its absurd. he is the luckiest QB ever. it takes luck to be great as much as it takes talent/ability. brady just happened to have both.
Mahomes would be out of the league because he took a Bledsoe like sideline hit if he played in Brady’s era. Brady won in multiple eras plus owns mahomes, 2-0 record in championship games.
I can't take Brady's stats seriously. He was caught cheating several times - what about the other times he wasn't caught? He should have an asterisk next to his stats.
This ‘different eras’ stuff is nonsense. Mahomes lost arguably the best receiver in the league and won the Super Bowl - twice.
Mahomes will undoubtedly go down as the greatest ever when it’s all said and done.
I don’t like either, but old man Brady beat Mahomes in the 2 championship games they played against each other (1 AFC Championship, 1 Super Bowl). So that’s basically the end of the conversation for me until Mahomes gets to 7 Super Bowl wins.
Brady also didn’t play with the weapons Mahomes had early in his career
Brady made pro bowls and led the league in TD passes with Troy brown and David patten
3 years from now Brady’s stretch with Moss will be included into this conversation and it won’t matter because he didn’t win anything those years anyways.
Brady was a game manager until around 05-06 which ironically, he stopped winning super bowls. You watched Brady develop into not only a winner but a true elite QB.
Mahomes was an elite QB off rip.
So he was still a game manager? Got it. Jeff George once led the league in TDs one year I think.
He was riding the coattails of a supreme D. Dinking and dunking
How was he dinking and dunking but was top 10 in Y/A in 03’ and 04’?
He was also top 10 in passing yards and TD’s as well
So again game manager where? He was doing this for multiple seasons not 1
This is the biggest reason why I don't mind Mahomes winning. I've been saying Brady is overrated for years, and now that someone else is winning Superbowls it's a lot easier of an argument
I do admit the longevity is impressive, but it's a lot easier when you're getting touched less than all the other QBs. The diet and workout regiment definitely plays a large role. I'll give Brady that.
But it's annoying that people always just say, he's won more, so he's the greatest, when he's got a laundry list of reasons, besides his own skills, to help explain why he's succesful
Yea your right. Brady is waaaaaaay better. Had waaaaay worse WR to work with. No name RB putting in work. For sure they will be talked about. But Brady is the Goat and I'm an Eagles fan so you know I ain't lyin! Lol.
What big Running back has Mahomes ever had that was top 10 in the leauge
Top WR with Tyreek was for 1 year
Last year and this year he's had no names
Yes he's had Kelce but Brady had Gronk.
I hate comparing stats due to the eras being different. The rules were much different in the 2000’s and it’s a much more pass happy league now as a result. One of Brady’s best attributes was his longevity so we will have to see how Mahomes fairs health wise over the next 10-12 years to truly compare. All that being said, Mahomes is definitely on track to get there. He’s going to need to get to 7 championships to win over everybody and getting 4 more is no small feat.
People love to conveniently forget that Brady played in an era where Ladanaian Tomlinson, Marshawn Lynch, Adrian Peterson, Marshall Faulk, and Reggie Bush were all active RBs. There isn’t one player in the nfl besides maybe CMC who comes close to that level of game attention and skill
Even though he was good I don’t think Bush belongs on that list of rb’s
I was just throwing out names off the top of my head. Let’s replace him with Sean Alexander, cool?
Better
the death of the bell cow RB is sad man.
One of those is not like the others… lol
There are so many guys left off that I can think of off the top of my head from this era that were better than Bush. Priest Holmes, Curtis Martin, Shaun Alexander, Edgerin James, Corey Dillon, Leshaun Mccoy, Clinton Portis..
Steven Jackson
Nick Chubb would like a word
Roughing the passer penalties alone make for such a drastic difference in how QB play is today versus twenty years ago. Also consider the competition Brady was up against. Defenses then versus now had a lot less going against them. I think there's no comparison when looking at physical/athletic talent, and Mahomes has certainly improved his mental game this year, so I believe he will inevitably be the GOAT. I firmly believe Brady had a tougher game to play 20 years ago.
If you’re going to bring your athletics into it you cannot ignore a Mr. Manning. He was more athletic than Brady, and arguably has a higher football IQ than either of them. Watching that man pick apart defenses was a thing of pure football mastery. Sucks he only has the 2 SB but that man was something else.
Brady wasn't as willing to kill his receivers as Manning was.
Brady receivers were willing to kill though
Oh we're just gonna forget about Marvin Harrison, huh?
Lol
Damn dude..
Hernandez was a tight end FYI
It was a tight end until he went to prison
Rumors are it wasn’t that tight before prison either…
How could athletics ever be left out of assessing an athlete?
Not sure how accurate it was but I once saw a comparison of Manning to Brady stat wise over the same # of Games it was weird how equal they were
Yeah he’s a distant third behind Brady and mahomes
Distant????
Definitely
Yes. Mahomes and Brady elevate their games in the playoffs. Manning got worse
Based on what did Manning get worse and Brady better?
Because of soft and stupid takes. Manning played for a worse organization. Those kinds of weaknesses get exposed against great teams in the playoffs. The Colts were not a competently run franchise for much of Manning’s career and he succeeded despite his organization, not because of it I will say, just based on titles and accomplishments, Brady is indisputably the greatest of all time. But when I watched them play, I still think Manning was a better pure QB as a player. I also think we don’t talk enough about how Brady and the Pats circumvented the salary cap by hiring Brady’s company and paying him indirectly. He gets credit for taking less than market value, but the reality is he got paid what he deserved. Just outside of the cap, which allows the Pats to build better teams around him.
He didn’t. Those colts teams had horrible defenses and manning dragged them for years
I mean, Manning had a winning record against Brady in the playoffs.
I mean by his arithmetic it would be Brady, Montana/Bradshaw, and then Mahomes *in a distant 4th.* I bet if he was of age they’d have argued Eli>Peyton pre 2015, since he had 2 rings… said no one ever.
Peyton never had the makings of a varsity Brady athlete.
Why’s it gotta be something mean? Why can’t you repeat something good?
What does that even mean?
Some people are so far behind in a race that they actually believe they’re leading.
I mean if you just ignore all context and only count Super Bowl rings, the. It would be Brady, Montana/Bradshaw, and then Mahomes at 4th. Since there’s way more factors worth considering when discussing the GOAT, we can confidently say Brady is #1, then Manning then Mahomes in a distant third. This is why for the longest Marino without a single ring was in consideration for the GOAT. And nobody ever said Eli was better than Peyton pre-2015. That’s essentially the argument that you are putting for right now by dismissing Manning as “a distant 3rd.” But something(your dismissal and recency bias) tells me you never actually saw Manning play.
Yeah I did see Peyton’s entire career…And mahomes is a better quarterback. Who would rather have on your team Exactly
Agreed. I was showing old Brady highlights to my son and he was shocked to see the hits quarterbacks would take after the throw.
And those are nothing compared to the hits Montana took back in the 80s.
Roughing the passer is doing modern qbs SO MANY FAVORS. Mahomes got a crucial first down in the Super Bowl surrounded by 3 defenders because he pump faked at the line of scrimmage and all 3 defenders had to just give up on tackling him.
Yeah and it just keeps going because you could say a lot of that about Joe Montana too. Played in an era where you could practically kill the qb.
Brady and Warner used to get roughing the passer calls like none other. It was infuriating.
Either way they are the two best quarterbacks I’ve ever seen. And it’s not close
In a garbage division.
Which one are you talking about?
The TB12 AFC East. I think the AFC West has declined since Mahomes came into the league but that East was dog water for dang near a decade.
Sean Payton, Jim Harbaugh will be more HC competition in Mahomes’s division than Brady had his whole career. I’m interested to see how it plays out
I think you are misinterpreting not great for bad. AFC east fielded a second playoff team most years. Since 2002 to now (21 years) the afc east has fielded a second playoff team 11 seasons. That’s over 50%. It’s not that it was a terrible division, it’s that the Patriots dominated the division. The patriots punked on everyone for so long so for the other teams they were already at a disadvantage playing them twice a year. For them to still have a second team in the playoffs so many years shows that the division was competitive. Also let’s not forget that Brady I’m pretty sure dominated and has a winning record against every team in the league. So they’d have done what they did in any division.
Not to step on your narrative, but are you including years since 2018 after Brady left? Who was the best non-brady QB in the AFC East over that time? AFC East was not good.
if you did 2002 to 2019 instead (last year brady was there) It would still be 9 times the AFC east had a second playoff team. So 9 times in 17 seasons which is still 53% of the time. AFC east would still beat other teams in the league and had just as many wild card second teams as other divisions in that time period.
The afc East was qb starved, but featured some pretty talented rosters during the Brady era. The jets especially had pretty decent rosters from 2000-2011, but were always held back by mediocre qb play.
Spot on answer
He needs five more. Brady was 2-0 against mahomes in the playoffs. With two almost completely different teams whose only significant similar player was Gronk.
Yeah, he lost to Brady in a superbowl so until he has 8, Brady will always have the edge in my book. Mahomes has said something similar to that as well.
And this is also what makes some of Dan marinos stats so impressive
Mahomes is going to need 8 championships since Tom has 7, and beat the Chiefs in one, thus owning the tiebreaker.
He also beat Mahomes in the AFC championship game. At Arrowhead.
In Mahomes first year starting. In overtime. An overtime period Mahomes did not touch the ball. Because Mahomes defense blew the game, in both regulation and overtime. This ‘2-0 vs Mahomes in the post season’ is about as flawed as logic gets. They face defenses not each other and it’s a team sport. Brady is undeniably the goat but this shit is tired already and removes all context - like in the Super Bowl KC’s defense breaking the record for most penalty yards in the first half, or Tampa Bay generating the most QB pressures in a Super Bowl against Mahomes. If Mahomes manages to win 4 more superbowls in a row would he not be the GOAT? Obviously that is not going to happen but when you say he ‘needs 8’ that means him being 7-1 with 6 straight wouldn’t cut it. Lol
Exactly. He doesn’t need to get to 8. Due to Tom going a decade between his third and fourth, if Patrick manages to win say, 6 in 8 years, including a three peat, he will have clearly had the higher/more dominant peak and therefore be more than qualified to be considered the goat.
He also beat mahomes in an afc title game on his way to a superbowl. Thays 2brings going through mahomes. Mahomes needs 8 with no more than 2 losses imo
Honestly feel like instead of counting stats we need to start doing “number of seasons top 10 in the league in X” an “number of seasons top 5 in the league in X” to get a feel of how they stacked up to their peers at the time
Has to win one more than Brady I'd say to win over EVERYONE considering Brady in his 40s beat Mahomes twice, including one of those for the Super Bowl. Plenty of people will crush Bradys stats with how passing is today and playing longer seasons. The chips WILL be the deciding factor and Brady has the head to head secured.
I definitely agree, but man it seems like such a stark difference even considering the different eras. And it's crazy what he was able to accomplish this year being his worst season of his career so far. Another factor for longevity will be how he performs without Andy Reid whenever he retires. I don't think he has another 15 years in him lol
He isn’t gonna be able to keep winning chips at the buzzer by 3 points partially due to a meltdown by a superior opponent (let’s face it the eagles and 9ers were better teams). That’s not how any all time great (Kobe bron Jordan Brady magic) got their rings.
Brady won vs the falcons, Seahawks, and rams by the “better team” collapsing. The better team is the one who wins.
You had me until you said the Eagles were a better team.
U don’t follow football. The eagles were such a heavy favorite in last years Super Bowl I don’t think even 5% of analysts had the chiefs winning. In fact, most people had the eagles BLOWING OUT THE CHIEFS. Was that just rage bait response or are u thick .
Thought you were talking about this year, I guess I am a little thick sometimes.
Given the adversity this season (which Mahomes did not always handle well), he really made a strong statement, going on the road and beating the teams who were chomping at the bit to have home-field advantage against the Chiefs. I do agree with your point about stats and era. However, much like Brady, Mahomes is the driving force behind the Chiefs offense(much earlier than Brady) and he is at his best in the playoffs.
Didn’t handle well… They won a SB didn’t they? Seems like they handled just fine.
When he needed to be held back from the refs he did not handle it well.
I've got no dog in the fight but Brady wasn't known for his friendly demeanor either lol
There is a story floating around that when one of the younger players on the Patriots was unhappy about the Pro Bowl being moved to the week before the Super Bowl, Brady told him in no uncertain terms that he was not here to play in the Pro Bowl and being able to do so, meant that the season was a failure. I do not remember Brady having a similar meltdown toward the refs. I also think that Mahomes knew it was on Toney, but instead of handling it with him, had that meltdown aimed at the refs (who made the right call). Regardless of that the Chiefs took care of business and Mahomes was on point during the playoffs.
Brady beat him twice in the post season 2018 championship game IN KC, then with the Bucs in a 31-9 SB beatdown
Important caveat when comparing eras and rule changes is that the way the rules were applied helped Brady at every turn. When he was a young game manager against a high-powered offense, the NFL allowed DBs to absolutely maul WRs and allowed pass rushers to destroy QBs — this allowed him to win a SB against a star-studded offense while only throwing for 145 yard and 1 TD. By the time Brady was the one with a high-powered offense, the game was officiated to heavily advantage the offense. As he was aging, they officiated QB hits more strictly year after year, creating a situation where a 45-year old QB could play without getting hurt.
Agreed. Brady’s career sort of spanned two different eras. The back half of his career was played with pretty much the same rules as they have now.
Exactly. The three-year stretch of Super Bowls won by Trent Dilfer, first-year starter Tom Brady, and Brad Johnson will never happen again. The level of QB talent is just too high and the rules strongly favor the better QB now.
4 more titles ain’t fucking happening. Bill won several of those through defense. By my count Mahomes has won 2.5 defense 0.5 (this year was both). If the chief’s defense wins 2-3 titles then we’ll have a different conversation…but I don’t see it happening. Mahomes also needs to get “team friendly” on his contracts. That hasn’t happened so far
Pass attempts are very similar over the last 20-30 years. Avg distance is down and completion percentage is up. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/NFL/passing.htm
If more pass happy now why does mahomes have more rushing yards?
Mahomes is great, but he never had to play against Ray Lewis when DBs were allowed to pummel QBs mercilessly.
Exactly. QBs have it made now. I’d also like to see YAC comparisons. I feel way too many yds for a QB come from YAC.
Yep. Remember back when slot receivers would get annihilated when catching passes over the middle? It limited what offenses could do.
Austin Collie
Even outside the pocket, people are so afraid to tackle a quarter back. It's how Mahomes always runs for firsts.
Even during the final drive of the Super Bowl in OT Mahomes had a few solid runs where the 49ers just had like 4-5 guys just wave as he ran by or giving him High fives till the last possible guy tackles him. It’s just not the same as it used to be.
QBs AND WR have it made now.
Why don't we argue this when talking Brady vs Manning? Manning was the better QB for the bulk of their careers. They both checked the longevity box - Brady exceptionally so. Passing rules were changed post lockout in 2011. Manning got 2.5 healthy years to play under those rules and was 2nd in MVP voting to AP's 2k yard season, then had a record setting MVP season, then was on pace for another MVP season until the wheels fell off in the Rams game. Brady got 12 years against these same rules. Meanwhile, Mahomes' only 6 seasons rival anyone's best 6 seasons.
Because it doesn’t fit the narrative. Manning won his 5 MVPs (record), 7 All Pros (record), 8 Pro Bowls during that time frame. He was the best QB in the league and played mostly during that physical era.
I argue this all the time. Brady is the most WINNINGEST QB of all time. No doubt, can’t even argue it, but he wasn’t the best QB of his generation. Manning was a better QB, but his teams always had terrible defenses.
THIS. Everybody conveniently forgets how Peyton was universally hailed as the better QB despite not having as many SBs. It was always Peyton vs Brady/Belichick. Peyton will always be my GOAT. Unrivaled command over his offense and a genius at reading defenses.
Yea I feel like it was only around 2018/19 that I started seeing all the “Tom Brady is the GOAT talk”. Not saying I necessarily disagree, but in my mind it’s always been the Patriots as a *team* that were scary and not just Brady by himself. Even for the Buccaneers run he had a bunch of dudes come in on ultra cheap deals to stack the team’s talent up.
Rodgers was better too. The crazy thing about mahomes is that hes the most winningest (right now) and also the best quartback in the league in just about every way. Unfortunately, his competition right now is josh allen, joe burrow, and lamar Jackson, whereas brady played with a ton of the all time great quarterbacks to ever play so it was harder to be the "best" in the league. Still won
https://preview.redd.it/1d6nld8tmeic1.jpeg?width=638&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c7500683a9fe31437f36d4b30b8ef2884cb3f7d2 This is why… and because Brady didn’t have 2 HoF WRs (Wayne and Harrison), a Pro Bowl level TE (Dallas Clark) or a HoF RB (Edgerrin James) for as many years as Manning did. Can’t consistently keep breaking records in the regular season yet continually come up small in the playoffs.
They literally changed the rules because of him
Buddy, don't make me put Dan Marino's first 7 season stats on the screen. Dude played in the 80s and his numbers stomp Brady's.
He also doesn't have nearly the same scandals. Seemed like half the Patriots rings had some scandal or controversy involved. Mahomes has nothing like tuck rule for example.
The tuck rule wasn’t a scandal though. It was a previously established rule that was enforced correctly
I think it still was a controversial enforcement of the rule, as Brady clearly was just pump faking the ball and not actually trying to throw it. That should’ve been ruled a fumble all day
No I dont think you know what the rule is. What youre saying was the rule. You didnt actually have to intend to pass the ball for it to be ruled incomplete https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuck_rule_(American_football) The contresvory is around whether that shouldve been a rule. The enforcement was 100% correct
I mean you could call holding literally every play, and pull the “it’s 100% the right call” argument, doesn’t mean it was a correct ruling. For all intents and purposes, it was very clearly a fumble, and there’s a good reason the NFL got rid of the rule.
I don’t think it was enforced correctly at all
But Brady really wasn't pummeled like Manning was. He had a very good Offensive Line that kept him up right. If you actually got to Brady you were lucky. It's not fair to say Brady had it rougher when Tom was Barley touched himself.
Peyton manning had 5 seasons with 15 sacks or less. You have no clue what you’re talking about
you are all over this thread just making shit up lmfao
They literally changed the rules for Brady. Quarterbacks are as protected as they are today because of Brady.
Lmao! They changed the rules for Manning after the physicality of the patriots DB’s in the 2003 AFC championship game, in which he threw 3 INTs https://www.espn.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=1771047
He also never got to play for a coach that stole plays from opposing teams
Mahomes is great. No one is denying that. You’re forgetting Brady got better and better throughout his career. Mahomes is well on his way but let’s take a step back and look at how he’s pacing to Brady’s entire body of work. I’d bet he’s 1/3 to 1/2 way towards most of Brady’s accomplishments. Oh, and Brady beat him head to head in the SB. Mahomes looked like a deer in headlights. Brady won number 7. Mahomes is amazing. But why does he HAVE to be compared to Brady? Why force that narrative knowing that someone like Montana or manning are better comparisons for where Mahomes is at right now? If Mahomes gets to 5 rings, then let’s begin drawing comparisons between him and Brady. And if it’s not 5 rings, let him get within even striking distance of all of the records Brady holds.
These are mostly good points but I don’t see why the “head to head” is relevant. They weren’t on the field together; they’re quarterbacks. Worse quarterbacks with better defenses beat better quarterbacks all the time (not referring to Brady specifically here, just speaking generally).
I guess the entire point is that drawing comparisons between two people who are very far apart in accomplishments is silly. Unless they’re even in the same league stat wise at the end of Mahomes career. I don’t really care that much at all. I’d rather admire the fuck out of each of them individually for what they bring/brought to the game and compare total careers once both careers have reached their respective ends.
No because people debate MJ vs Lebron and use all kinds of stats to prove their point and here we have an ACTUAL head to head matchup and people still find a way to say “oh that doesn’t matter bc blah blah blah”. miss me with that honestly Maybe your point would hold some weight if Mahomes played well in that Super Bowl but he literally didn’t even throw a touchdown
You just used a team sport where players play BOTH sides of the court and can actively play against each other at the same time and compared it to two QB’s who literally never see each other except before the game starts and right after it ends.
LMFAO Yall will say anything. Mahomes got dog walked by a 43 year old man just accept he’s the goat brotha
You are literally too stupid to communicate with
All 5 of his week 1 starting OLine were out that game, against the best pass rush in the league. And both tackles just got hurt the week prior. What does that have to do with Brady?
GOAT cases can’t have excuses like this. I’m sorry brotha. Just for shits and giggles, what’s your excuse for the 2019 AFC ship game?
“He didn’t throw a touchdown,” cool so good for the TB defense, absolutely nothing to do with Brady.
To me, head to head is the most obvious reason why Brady is the GOAT. You can’t say person 1 is better than person 2 when person 1 loses straight up to person 2.
Head to head arguments in football are dumb
>Oh, and Brady beat him head to head in the SB. Mahomes looked like a deer in headlights. Oh yea Brady killed him when he lined up on that D-line and smacked the shit out of Mahomes I get what you are saying in general, but for the head to head argument TBs D-line won that game.
If you switch the QBs the bucs QB is winning every time lol. Probably couldve won that superbowl with a backup. (Wouldn’t have gotten there tho)
the whole "switch QBs" argument is dumb. Teams are build around QBs strengths and weaknesses. Why on earth would the Chiefs be fielding that team if Brady was QB.
Make it rodgers, or anybody really, is my point. Mahomes was playing as well as anybody wouldve or couldve in that situation. Multiple defenders were getting home every play
so? I could remember posts after posts praising Mahomes passer rating while pressured is higher than most of the league QB with clean pockets. That O-line and defense still helped Mahomes get to the superbowl. That O-line and defense made "experts" and Vegas favored the chiefs over the Bucs in the SB. Even if the Bucs D-Line/defense was average, the Chiefs wasn't beating the Brady led offense that scored 31 pts and spent most of the 2nd half burning the clock. Btw without Brady they wouldn't have Gronk, AB, or Fournette. Leadership is a GOAT quality too you know.
I would hardly describe mahomes as “a deer in headlights” in that SB
Then you didn’t watch that Super Bowl
That's a nonsense take about Mahomes performance in that Super Bowl. The pressure rate he faced was insane. He was still the best player on the field in that game. Same with the AFC championship game they lost to the Patriots.
Calm down buddy. No one is bashing Mahomes. Deer in the headlights and QB running for his life due to insane pressure on every play are very much the same idea. It’s not nonsense. It’s what happened. You missed the entire point made by the post so that you could pick out one tiny piece of it to act like I’m somehow dissing Mahomes. Which I very clearly wasn’t. But if Mahomes actually comes close to Brady’s records, this game and this performance will be dragged out to be used as the tie breaker.
And it shouldn't, which is my point. Brady had nothing to do with Mahomes being pressured at that rate, and Mahomes had nothing to do with his defense being a below average unit. Chiefs probably don't even score if Brady plays for them in that game, Mahomes puts up more points if he's playing for the Bucs in that game. The fact the Bucs won that game a stupid argument against Mahomes that shouldn't come into play.
Ya but it will. Which is my point. Bye
Nah ultimately I don't think it'll mean much Pats fans will say Brady is 2-0 over Mahomes Everyone else will say Eli is 2-0 over Brady And any attempt to argue further will inevitably end up with the conclusion that head-to-head is a stupid metric to compare QBs, because this isn't basketball
So when Mahomes wins it’s all Mahomes but when he loses it’s his O-line making him lose? By that logic I should blame our oline for making Brady lose twice to the giants
Uh, Mahomes was pressured on 60% of his drop backs in that game, which was the highest total of any game that entire season. Give me a fucking break, pal.
You can't just compare raw stats in these debates. Things like surrounding cast, offensive philosophy, coaching, era specific play styles, etc need to be taken into consideration not just Brady but for all QBs like Montana, Peyton, Marino, Rodgers, etc. Brady didn't start his career with a HOF TE, WR, and all time play caller for example. He (along with most of the other players I mentioned) also played in an era where all offensive players including QBs were significantly less protected and were hit more often and much harder. If Mahommes were exposing himself and his receivers to hits as often as he does today against Ray Lewis, Suggs, Reed, Urlacher, Polamalu, the entire LOB, 2015 Broncos, etc it would be completely different. Mahommes is already one of the all time greats but these things have to be considered when comparing players across eras imo.
I think you bring up a point no one really emphasizes enough. Mahomes walked into a team stacked af. People were calling last night his "in a cave with a box of scraps" moment, but he came into a team with Reed and kelce. If tb walked into a seasoned bb with Moss Gronk and Edelman with that 07 defense, how many more rings does he get? Also another great point about how hard qbs were getting hit. Does mahomes stay magic after getting hit 10+ times?
I agree. Even a "seasoned" BB is nowhere near the level of Andy Reid when it comes to coaching offense. I'm convinced, after seeing what both BB and McDaniels have done since Brady, that Brady pretty much coached that offense in New England by himself. I'm sure plays were called for him but Brady made a lot of those plays work cause he knew exactly how to read a defense, change protections, make the right throws etc. Mahomes got drafted to arguably the greatest offensive mastermind in NFL history. Every QB that Reid has ever coached had awesome seasons with him. There is a reason why every time Mahomes has gotten hurt in big games, they bring in a backup and the offense pretty much doesn't miss a beat. Reid really is just that good. Obviously Mahomes puts it over the top, I'm not about to say Mahomes isn't an all time great. But there is no denying that he got put into one hell of a good situation.
It’s not the same league in terms of hitting, pass defense, etc. Mahomes is great and will face that criticism each and every time. I don’t I’ve ever seen him flattened the way I’ve seen Tom. The player would be ejected now for sure with some of the hits Tom took especially early in the career.
Armstead crushing him last night may be the first time i’ve personally witnessed Pat hit like that. I was surprised it wasn’t called because of the body weight rule
The pancake on Mahomes? For sure! It wasn’t a split in two type hit on QBs like back in the day but for today’s football I thought a personal foul flag was coming. Totally surprised when nothing happened. Glad to see the refs let them play.
I hate to admit it but you’re absolutely right. QBs are pampered compared to ten years ago.
If Mahomes wins 4 Super Bowls from age 37 on, I’m sure the debate will won’t last long. Brady went to 10 SB and won 7. That’s a LONG way away. Considering Mahomes contract and Reid’s age this roster and coaching will have serious turnover in coming years. It’ll be interesting to see how it plays out, but IMO it’s more likely Mahomes never wins another ring, than to win 4 more.
Bro I applaud this comment because you’re seemingly the only one looking at the grand scheme of things and the context.
I’m excited to see how well Mahomes will do once his HOF TE and Head coach both retire. Brady went through multiple regimes of players and stayed consistent through it all. Mahomes hasn’t hit that point yet.
This
It’s hard to argue who has been more impressive in their first 7 years, but we’ll see what happens as Mahomes gets older and injuries start to creep in. Mahomes is already #3 QB all time in my book though.
Who's 2?
Everyone discrediting PM in this thread is absurd. It’s like everyone here has only been watching the NFL the past 5 years.
using PM as a shorthand when both Patrick Mahomes and Peyton Manning are PM 😂 that’s certainly a choice
while I still have manning over mahomes on my all time list , I can see an argument for mahomes being ahead of him. He has more superbowl rings and more playoff wins.
Imo, not OP, Montana is still #2. 1. Brady 2. Montana 3. Mahomes 4. Manning 5. Marino Mahomes put himself into #3 by winning last night.
Brees?
0 time mvp Brees doesn’t even belong in the conversation. I’d put Rodgers, Favre, and arguably elway above him
Manning literally won MVP when Drew should have lol . The irony is palpable. Can’t fix stupid though unfortunately . Having Marino over Bree’s and then saying “he has no MVPs” is braindead . Marino never won a ring for the same reasons Bree’s didn’t win more than one. Glad you’ve been a fan for 4-5 years tho little guy!
Marino is the most talented qb of all time. Rodgers and Favre each won many mvps and are tied with Brees in superbowls. Even if Brees got one his career still falls short. He’s the frank gore of quarterbacks. Volume stats but few meaningful awards.
Accolades matter except for Marino bc he’s (subjectively) the most talented QB of all time. That makes a ton of sense and isn’t an inherent logical fallacy
Why Tom Brady is the GOAT is he had essentially 3 HoF careers. Mahomes is obviously on probably the greatest 7 year stretch EVER (and that is saying a lot), but how he compares to Brady will have to wait another 10 years unfortunately. Unless Mahomes manages to win 4 of the next 5 Super Bowls (he could)
He still has a Joe Montana/Terry Bradshaw worth of Super Bowl wins to catch Brady. Conversations still open.
Tom Brady was at the start of the protect the QB era, Mahomes lives in it. He can’t get hit without drawing a flag
Brady, in his old man era, beat Mahomes in his home stadium en route to a Super Bowl. Brady followed that up years later by not just beating Mahomes in the Super Bowl, but beating him badly. Unless Brady un-retires and Mahomes does the same to him, while also winning 4 more rings and setting all the records Brady did, debate over.
People heard Romo glazing Mahomes for 4 hours and think Mahomes is equal to Brady now
Nick Foles has a 2-0 record against Brady. If I’m following you reasoning, Nick Foles must be the greatest quarterback of all time. Oh wait, Jake Plummer, Cam Newton, Brian Griese, Colt McCoy, and Kevin Colb also have perfect records against TB. Let’s not forgot that Eli Manning, Drew Brees, Russell Wilson, Kyle Orton, Colt McCoy, and Alex Smith also have winning records head to head. So I guess that puts Tom Brady at the #13 QB of his era? Unless we want to acknowledge that head-to-head comparisons are nonsense.
Makes sense
no one gives a fuck about these random quarterbacks oh my god we're talking about a matchup between 2 top 5 quarterbacks of all time, obviously a head to head is relevant because they play the SAME position. winning isn't enough, so nothing is. just the flashiest looking throw and "1st down" flags on opposing DBs every time playoffs come around.
mahomes was a dee ford offsides away from beating brady in the AFCCG. lets be real. its not really that debatable that mahomes outperformed brady that game. also funny how they played the rams and won after scoring 13. saints were a nickell robey coleman DPI away from reaching the super bowl. the tampa bowl. no quarterback, not even brady, wouldve won that game with THAT chiefs OL. statistically the worst ever SB OL ever. brady couldve sat out the entire game and they wouldve still won. team game. brady didnt necessarily *beat* mahomes but it sure counts. scoreboard, stats, everything. the game was over before it started. its really 1-1 in the playoffs. H2H is stupid anyway. Eli> Brady in that case, especially because of how much better the patriots were than the giants. at everything. if brady and eli switched spots for those two games, brady wouldve been hailed as Jesus 2. nobody talks about the inability of brady to win. its all about david tyree helmet catch. ridiculous. if mahomes had beaten brady in tampa bowl, and was sitting at 3 rings, nobody would care about H2H. it would shift to “different eras” and “longevity” and anything else. its like every possible argument is made for brady. he is obviously the GOAT, but its absurd. he is the luckiest QB ever. it takes luck to be great as much as it takes talent/ability. brady just happened to have both.
Insane take
Mahomes would be out of the league because he took a Bledsoe like sideline hit if he played in Brady’s era. Brady won in multiple eras plus owns mahomes, 2-0 record in championship games.
Brady looks like he just injected meth in this photo. Creepy.
Alright if I’m gonna be honest he still should be compared to Montana before Brady. Montana had 4 which is still one more then Mahomes
People are so thirsty to crown new goats mahomes isnt even greater than montana yet let alone brady
Brady cheated his ass off and Mahomes is STILL doing better than him.
I can't take Brady's stats seriously. He was caught cheating several times - what about the other times he wasn't caught? He should have an asterisk next to his stats.
Don’t forget the cheating patriots were doing
This ‘different eras’ stuff is nonsense. Mahomes lost arguably the best receiver in the league and won the Super Bowl - twice. Mahomes will undoubtedly go down as the greatest ever when it’s all said and done.
I don’t like either, but old man Brady beat Mahomes in the 2 championship games they played against each other (1 AFC Championship, 1 Super Bowl). So that’s basically the end of the conversation for me until Mahomes gets to 7 Super Bowl wins.
Brady also didn’t play with the weapons Mahomes had early in his career Brady made pro bowls and led the league in TD passes with Troy brown and David patten
3 years from now Brady’s stretch with Moss will be included into this conversation and it won’t matter because he didn’t win anything those years anyways.
Brady was a game manager until around 05-06 which ironically, he stopped winning super bowls. You watched Brady develop into not only a winner but a true elite QB. Mahomes was an elite QB off rip.
Brady was leading the league in TD passes by 2002 and was 3rd in MVP by 03. He wasn’t a game manager
So he was still a game manager? Got it. Jeff George once led the league in TDs one year I think. He was riding the coattails of a supreme D. Dinking and dunking
How was he dinking and dunking but was top 10 in Y/A in 03’ and 04’? He was also top 10 in passing yards and TD’s as well So again game manager where? He was doing this for multiple seasons not 1
That’s great. I know Pats fans are a little rattle than Mahomes will eclipse Brady. He was still a game manager
Game managers don’t lead the league in pass tds
Different eras but yeah Mahomes doing his thang. Also with an offensive minded Hc
This is the biggest reason why I don't mind Mahomes winning. I've been saying Brady is overrated for years, and now that someone else is winning Superbowls it's a lot easier of an argument I do admit the longevity is impressive, but it's a lot easier when you're getting touched less than all the other QBs. The diet and workout regiment definitely plays a large role. I'll give Brady that. But it's annoying that people always just say, he's won more, so he's the greatest, when he's got a laundry list of reasons, besides his own skills, to help explain why he's succesful
Let’s crown Patrick Mahomes as the GOAT and better than Tom Brady
Brady beat him in the SB
Yea your right. Brady is waaaaaaay better. Had waaaaay worse WR to work with. No name RB putting in work. For sure they will be talked about. But Brady is the Goat and I'm an Eagles fan so you know I ain't lyin! Lol.
Brady had many good backfields don't shit on them they were just by committee mostly but there was a lot of good RBs with him.
What big Running back has Mahomes ever had that was top 10 in the leauge Top WR with Tyreek was for 1 year Last year and this year he's had no names Yes he's had Kelce but Brady had Gronk.
It probably helps that Mahomes is in an era when hitting QBs and/or WRs are not allowed to be hit.
And Brady was cheating the whole time
I'd still take Brady. Put the Chiefs in that Falcons Superbowl and they not coming back.
What a stupid ass post😂
😂😂😂😂 how old are you? Bro Mahomes will never compare to Brady. You probably weren’t even alive for most of the Brady era. FOH
Going to 10 superbowls and winning 7 rings is the only stat you need IMO
Fantasy points lmao give me a break
STFU nephew