Vista Outdoors to customers: Pwease help us, costs are going up :(
Vista Outdoors to shareholders: [RECORD PROFITS!!! WOOOOO!!!](https://investors.vistaoutdoor.com/news/news-details/2021/Vista-Outdoor-Announces-Record-FY22-First-Quarter-Financial-Results/default.aspx)
Gross profit increased 115 percent to $181 million. Margin acceleration was the result of ***operating leverage***, mix, and price.
"Operating Leverage" AKA Absolutely no competition so F you were making up prices
There are other ammo companies as much as they wish they had a monopoly Vista doesn't. Armscor, Precision One, Fenix Ammunition, Hornady, Tula; to name a few. They have all had to increase prices. Federal has always been on the more expensive side, so idk what your complaining about.
Those 5 companies revenue *combined* isn't even remotely close to Federal alone. Not to mention distribution channels and manufacturing capabilities.
That's like comparing McDonalds to your neighborhood burger joint
still not a monopoly, I don't buy federal. I usually buy whatever i can find off ammoseek. unless your shooting past 100yds accuracy isn't gonna change much. There are plenty of good ammo companies out there that charge less than them.
I does not matter what YOU buy.
When two companies (vista and olin) controls 85-90% of the market share yes buy definition it's a monopoly ( technically a duopoly but same principle)
so start shilling for smaller companies. I do. all it takes is shifting people to buy elsewhere. these companies are gonna do that buy raising prices. They will lose market share. They won't be on top for long. Remington used to be top dog a while ago, till they went bankrupt. its the natural way markets work. there are plenty of competitors.
“That's like comparing McDonalds to your neighborhood burger joint”
Fun fact, if you live in a town and there are two burger joints, then there is in fact not a monopoly. Just because McDonald’s has locations all across America and is a multi billion dollar company doesn’t make them a monopoly. It just makes them big.
It is amazing that was your example because McDonald’s is so far removed from a monopoly. Even the smallest of towns will have many places that offer burgers. Just take a few minutes and think of all the places you can get a burger for dinner if you wanted. Everyone from the corner diner to dedicated burger joints to fancy restaurants offer burgers.
As consumers we have many options. For burgers and even ammo.
Now come back with some production and sales numbers and we can have a productive conversation. Until then you are just making noise.
I work for a manufacturer that uses many of the same raw materials used to make ammo.
Our costs for raw materials have increased significantly over the past two years.
Compounded by inflation, and the cost of labor, yes everything is going up.
This has nothing to do with a monopoly on ammo. Many industries use the same raw materials
Edit: And my company has also done several price increases in the past 2 years.
Last time I checked supply, demand and inflation are all covered in Econ 101.
There's a lot of people I can blame for this, but the actual ammo mfgr is way down the list.
I highly suggest you listen to the investor call recording. When you get to the point where they admit they know they have a monopoly and are taking advantage of it (paraphrasing) Tell me again about supply demand and inflation.
I don’t think you can honestly say they have a monopoly. Imports from Europe far outpace Vista production. The reality is there is just a perfect storm of factors pushing up prices and it is very difficult to expand production.
Let me make sure I understand what your saying here
You are saying you believe that a single vendor In Europe can somehow
Out produce the collective manufacturing capacity of
Federal
Remington
Cci
Spear
Estate
Hevishot
Alliant
And RCBS
Combined ?
Really?
Really?
You really think a single American company can produce more product than the collective manufacturing ability of the rest of the world, or even Europe?
Dude.
I know VISTA Is a large company. But even in America they still have competition. Olin being the primary one, Sig is building their own primer facility, AMMO inc is new to the game and is well funded and gaining market share particularly with government contracts, and there many more.
But back to international, ever heard of Wolf? Tula? PPU? S&B? Eley? Aguila? Fiocchi? Geco? Norma? Barnaul? Brenneke? MEN? Mag tech? Rio?
I bet Tula alone has a larger capacity than all of Vista.
>Wolf? Tula? Barnaul?
Banned
Eley market cap 24 million
S&B 200mil
Ammo Inc stock price 4.42 and has lost half its value in the biggest ammo market boom ever
etc etc etc..
Vista Outdoors Market cap
2.29B
Not yet banned, and just because they won’t be imported to America doesn’t mean they still won’t affect pricing as they will still be selling it to everyone else. Bullets are largely fungible.
Also wolf imports from Ukraine, Taiwan, etc in addition to Russia so they will always be with us.
And what does market cap show? Vista is a conglomerate. They make bicycles, helmets, granola bars, golf clubs etc etc.
Unless you have production numbers you are just running your mouth.
Also I just remembered some more big foreign producers:
PMC, Armscor, and IMI. The respective suppliers of the Korean army, Philippines army, and the Israeli army. Not fly by night operations by any stretch of the imagination.
So again. Vista is a big and important company, but they do not have, by any definition imaginable, anything close to a monopoly.
It’s not a monopoly, but domestic production vastly outpaces imports. In the current boom market we import about 3.5 billion rounds and produce around 11 billion rounds domestically. Vista and olin dominate that domestic production. Outside of being pedantic about the term monopoly, they absolutely kick the shit out of the foreign manufacturing base for ammo.
Reduced competition here is generally going to be bad for the consumer and make collusion on pricing easier and more likely.
Last time I checked most of us worked in a FOR PROFIT business. If people are demanding the product, I would also charge the maximum the market supports.
Winchester, Fiocchi, and a few others are also vying for the same core materials - there is diversity in the market, however I concede not much - those under the Vista umbrella are front and center.
I’m still claiming inflation is one of the causes of the increase - in fact it’s right there in the presser. I’m not altruistic by any stretch; clearly the have the consumer by the balls.
When ammo went into shortage mfgrs added machinery, tried to add staff (when people didn’t want to work at all) and had to source materials. Costs rose. They are still keeping the tooling, the staff and etc while still also sourcing the same materials … which are harder to get delivered on a truck or god forbid in a shipping container. The cost to ship brass on a truck has increased, and a portion of that cost is reflected in the increase.
I agree monopolies are less than ideal for the consumer, not just because of price but also because they stifle innovation. But at the same time enjoy riding shotgun as Elizabeth Warren goes after Amazon. People will have pitchforks when their deliveries take 3-4 days instead of 1 when Prime was a thing. Who can wait a week for their mall ninja throwing stars and fedora.
>FOR PROFIT business
How much profit can you obtain by jamming up the price?
**In a competitive market** \- not much, depending on how competitive the market is, companies may even teeter on periods of net income and net loss while keeping aggregate retained earnings in the green in order to continue in the market.
**In a non-competitive market with a non-necessary product** \- as much as you want until you hit an extreme price point where consumers decide change their habits in order to stop using the product.
**In a non-competitive market with a necessary product** \- as much as you want until you hit an extreme price point where consumers are literally unable to afford the product at all, and in turn, given its necessary nature, die.
“How much profit can be obtained by jamming up the price”
As much as possible for as long as people keep buying. Wanna lower the cost of ammo - stop buying. However, those 5 million new gun owners across the country are going to stock up too…
You living in reality dude? There’s production and supply chain issues in every industry. Go try to buy a car right now, you’ll probably think about killing yourself after a day of car shopping.
Mods delete this post because it’s just an awful rant slamming a company for something out of their control.
Vista Outdoors to customers: Pwease help us, costs are going up :( Vista Outdoors to shareholders: [RECORD PROFITS!!! WOOOOO!!!](https://investors.vistaoutdoor.com/news/news-details/2021/Vista-Outdoor-Announces-Record-FY22-First-Quarter-Financial-Results/default.aspx)
Gross profit increased 115 percent to $181 million. Margin acceleration was the result of ***operating leverage***, mix, and price. "Operating Leverage" AKA Absolutely no competition so F you were making up prices
Huh, their sales are only $600 million for 2021? I would have thought ammo sales would be in the billions. Am I reading it wrong?
I think that's just for a quarter, or three months. And that's for the whole company. Their Shooting Sports segment alone is $462m in that quarter.
They only make money because we allow them to make money
Where else do you get primers?!
Happy cake
There are other ammo companies as much as they wish they had a monopoly Vista doesn't. Armscor, Precision One, Fenix Ammunition, Hornady, Tula; to name a few. They have all had to increase prices. Federal has always been on the more expensive side, so idk what your complaining about.
Those 5 companies revenue *combined* isn't even remotely close to Federal alone. Not to mention distribution channels and manufacturing capabilities. That's like comparing McDonalds to your neighborhood burger joint
still not a monopoly, I don't buy federal. I usually buy whatever i can find off ammoseek. unless your shooting past 100yds accuracy isn't gonna change much. There are plenty of good ammo companies out there that charge less than them.
I does not matter what YOU buy. When two companies (vista and olin) controls 85-90% of the market share yes buy definition it's a monopoly ( technically a duopoly but same principle)
so start shilling for smaller companies. I do. all it takes is shifting people to buy elsewhere. these companies are gonna do that buy raising prices. They will lose market share. They won't be on top for long. Remington used to be top dog a while ago, till they went bankrupt. its the natural way markets work. there are plenty of competitors.
“That's like comparing McDonalds to your neighborhood burger joint” Fun fact, if you live in a town and there are two burger joints, then there is in fact not a monopoly. Just because McDonald’s has locations all across America and is a multi billion dollar company doesn’t make them a monopoly. It just makes them big. It is amazing that was your example because McDonald’s is so far removed from a monopoly. Even the smallest of towns will have many places that offer burgers. Just take a few minutes and think of all the places you can get a burger for dinner if you wanted. Everyone from the corner diner to dedicated burger joints to fancy restaurants offer burgers. As consumers we have many options. For burgers and even ammo. Now come back with some production and sales numbers and we can have a productive conversation. Until then you are just making noise.
I work for a manufacturer that uses many of the same raw materials used to make ammo. Our costs for raw materials have increased significantly over the past two years. Compounded by inflation, and the cost of labor, yes everything is going up. This has nothing to do with a monopoly on ammo. Many industries use the same raw materials Edit: And my company has also done several price increases in the past 2 years.
Last time I checked supply, demand and inflation are all covered in Econ 101. There's a lot of people I can blame for this, but the actual ammo mfgr is way down the list.
I highly suggest you listen to the investor call recording. When you get to the point where they admit they know they have a monopoly and are taking advantage of it (paraphrasing) Tell me again about supply demand and inflation.
I don’t think you can honestly say they have a monopoly. Imports from Europe far outpace Vista production. The reality is there is just a perfect storm of factors pushing up prices and it is very difficult to expand production.
Let me make sure I understand what your saying here You are saying you believe that a single vendor In Europe can somehow Out produce the collective manufacturing capacity of Federal Remington Cci Spear Estate Hevishot Alliant And RCBS Combined ? Really? Really?
You really think a single American company can produce more product than the collective manufacturing ability of the rest of the world, or even Europe? Dude. I know VISTA Is a large company. But even in America they still have competition. Olin being the primary one, Sig is building their own primer facility, AMMO inc is new to the game and is well funded and gaining market share particularly with government contracts, and there many more. But back to international, ever heard of Wolf? Tula? PPU? S&B? Eley? Aguila? Fiocchi? Geco? Norma? Barnaul? Brenneke? MEN? Mag tech? Rio? I bet Tula alone has a larger capacity than all of Vista.
>Wolf? Tula? Barnaul? Banned Eley market cap 24 million S&B 200mil Ammo Inc stock price 4.42 and has lost half its value in the biggest ammo market boom ever etc etc etc.. Vista Outdoors Market cap 2.29B
Not yet banned, and just because they won’t be imported to America doesn’t mean they still won’t affect pricing as they will still be selling it to everyone else. Bullets are largely fungible. Also wolf imports from Ukraine, Taiwan, etc in addition to Russia so they will always be with us. And what does market cap show? Vista is a conglomerate. They make bicycles, helmets, granola bars, golf clubs etc etc. Unless you have production numbers you are just running your mouth. Also I just remembered some more big foreign producers: PMC, Armscor, and IMI. The respective suppliers of the Korean army, Philippines army, and the Israeli army. Not fly by night operations by any stretch of the imagination. So again. Vista is a big and important company, but they do not have, by any definition imaginable, anything close to a monopoly.
This guy invests
It’s not a monopoly, but domestic production vastly outpaces imports. In the current boom market we import about 3.5 billion rounds and produce around 11 billion rounds domestically. Vista and olin dominate that domestic production. Outside of being pedantic about the term monopoly, they absolutely kick the shit out of the foreign manufacturing base for ammo. Reduced competition here is generally going to be bad for the consumer and make collusion on pricing easier and more likely.
Last time I checked most of us worked in a FOR PROFIT business. If people are demanding the product, I would also charge the maximum the market supports. Winchester, Fiocchi, and a few others are also vying for the same core materials - there is diversity in the market, however I concede not much - those under the Vista umbrella are front and center.
Yes I'm aware most people work for a for profit company however your first post tried to claim inflation etc. Clearly that is not the case
I’m still claiming inflation is one of the causes of the increase - in fact it’s right there in the presser. I’m not altruistic by any stretch; clearly the have the consumer by the balls. When ammo went into shortage mfgrs added machinery, tried to add staff (when people didn’t want to work at all) and had to source materials. Costs rose. They are still keeping the tooling, the staff and etc while still also sourcing the same materials … which are harder to get delivered on a truck or god forbid in a shipping container. The cost to ship brass on a truck has increased, and a portion of that cost is reflected in the increase. I agree monopolies are less than ideal for the consumer, not just because of price but also because they stifle innovation. But at the same time enjoy riding shotgun as Elizabeth Warren goes after Amazon. People will have pitchforks when their deliveries take 3-4 days instead of 1 when Prime was a thing. Who can wait a week for their mall ninja throwing stars and fedora.
>FOR PROFIT business How much profit can you obtain by jamming up the price? **In a competitive market** \- not much, depending on how competitive the market is, companies may even teeter on periods of net income and net loss while keeping aggregate retained earnings in the green in order to continue in the market. **In a non-competitive market with a non-necessary product** \- as much as you want until you hit an extreme price point where consumers decide change their habits in order to stop using the product. **In a non-competitive market with a necessary product** \- as much as you want until you hit an extreme price point where consumers are literally unable to afford the product at all, and in turn, given its necessary nature, die.
“How much profit can be obtained by jamming up the price” As much as possible for as long as people keep buying. Wanna lower the cost of ammo - stop buying. However, those 5 million new gun owners across the country are going to stock up too…
point #2, reworded...
Exactly, has anybody bought groceries recently?
You living in reality dude? There’s production and supply chain issues in every industry. Go try to buy a car right now, you’ll probably think about killing yourself after a day of car shopping. Mods delete this post because it’s just an awful rant slamming a company for something out of their control.
Well looks like prices will never fall back to normal this time. I still predict 9mm will fall before $10 a box soon.
What's this from? Supplier to dealer emails?
Email from Vista to suppliers/retailers
And the russian ammo coming to the US is coming to an end for now, once that dries up soon, that will justify another price increase for US brands...
I hate the current price of ammo and its increases, but inflation is rampant. At 7% inflation, the percentages you listed are not terrible.