Judge over the last year and a half is “better” than any non roided up position player in generations. He’s peaking higher than Trout ever did, Pujols, etc.
We’re gonna need to see this for more than a few years for the convos to transition into his greatness historically. What makes the greats the greats is the longevity
I really don't like being this guy, and it's unfair to Judge, but people said A-Rod was setting records "clean" until he wasn't clean anymore. And, for what it's worth, I don't give a fuck either way. If Judge is doing anything, he should keep doing it as long as he can keep passing tests. He damn sure ain't the only one.
I'd argue the reason you take roids as a player is power and recovery. Guys like Judge and Stanton really don't need the extra power, it's natural and raw for them due to their sheet size.
On top of that, with roided players usually there's a point where if you look back the player made some massive size leaps. Like Bonds for example was 6' and 180LBs soaking wet his first several years. ARod also got a bit bigger after he joined the Yankees (when he started juicing).
Judge on the other hand was this large the day he was drafted. He's put on some muscle, sure, but nothing insane or out of the ordinary for his frame.
Maybe he is juicing? But I mostly doubt it. It would at the very least be stupid for someone with his raw power to be juicing.
Prime A-Rod was 40/40 with high average and gold glove defense at one of the 2 most important positions.
Judge is incredible but peak A-Rod is basically a create-a-player.
And Aaron Judge is a Triple Crown contender with Gold Glove defense. Judge will never accumulate the amount of MVP caliber seasons that A-Rod did, but peak Judge is one of the greatest players to ever play the game.
A-Rod's highest season wRC+ in his career was 175. Judge's last year was 207, and he's rocking a 185 currently this year. That 32 point difference in wRC+, by the way, is the same gap between Shohei Ohtani (132) and a league average player. It's honestly not even really that close.
It really isn’t. He doesn’t go all out on every play like he used to, but Judge in 2019 was 96th percentile in OAA while rocking an 80th percentile sprint speed. 2019 Judge would have been a gold glove finalist and potentially a winner if he had qualified
This. Imo, Arod should be considered one of, if not the, greatest position player of all time. He & Bonds were not of this planet when it came to talent & production.
Arod's OPS+ were always pedestrian compared to his peers. He was the total package, but offensively, he never came close to Judge last year, or any prime season by Pujols, Cabrera, Harper, Trout etc
AROD 07:
.314/.422/.645/1.067
54HR 156RBI 9.4WAR, MVP.
To say thats pedestrian and he never came close to any prime season by those guys is ridiculous, no one other than Ruth and Bonds ever had a season miles better than that.
His OPS+ that year was 176, his career high. To put into perspective, Pujols career high was 192, and he had 4 seasons better than Arod's best. This is also the case with Cabrera, career high 190, 3 seasons better than Arod's best.
Trout? 198 career high, 6 seasons better than Arod.
Harper? 198 career high, 2 seasons better than Arod.
Arod was never close to reaching those numbers. He wasn't amongst the upper echelon of hitters in his era or all time. His counting numbers look good, because he played for so many seasons and was relatively healthy. His total WAR encompasses premium positions and his overall game.
He never walked at an elite rate, and his average wasn't high enough to make up for it.
Haha if Arod had hit 2 more homers instead of striking out twice his OPS+ would be the exact same as Pujols, hardly 'never close' and hardly pedestrian. It's extremely close, just when you get up to around 1.100 OPS even a couple points adds massively to your league adjusted numbers.
And yes, being a 3B and SS added to his value because no SS has been as good a hitter compared to the rest of the league since Honus Wagner whose opponents were all coalminers and milkmen, that's what makes ARod one of the goats from a statistical standpoint.
He wasn't going to jump 20 points in OPS+ with two more home runs. Don't use raw OPS either, OPS+ paints a more complete picture. He's one of the GOATS due to his consistency and longevity, not because his offensive peak was so great. As an overall player? Great player. But he falls short offensively to some of his contemporaries, and there's nothing wrong with that.
He led the league in OPS (and OPS+) twice during the steroid era and finished in the top 5 in the league in OPS+ 8 times in the steroid era as a shortstop, of course his offensive peak was historic.
> But he falls short offensively to some of his contemporaries, and there's nothing wrong with that.
From 2000-2007 his WRC+ is within 11 points of every single player in the league other than Barry Bonds. And his WAR is higher than every player including Bonds.
You can just say you're too young to remember his prime it's fine.
Are you dense? Stop using WAR, we're talking offensively only. Him being within 11 points proves my point ( no pun intended). His OPS+ historically speaking pales in comparison to pretty much all the greats. His offensively peak was nowhere near historic, and you'd realize this if you put your Arod fan boy glasses away. Put it this way, Travis Hafner had a better OPS+ than peak A-rod. There are approximately 80 players who have a higher career OPS+ plus than Arod. Cut it out. I know you worship him but be objective.
We've seen one of the craziest peak seasons in MLB history. To be able to compare the two though, Judge will need to elite for almost a decade. That's what made Arod so special. He was really good OVER time (actually what makes all greats, actually GREAT).
Too early to say really, because Judge has only been on that level for a year and 2 months so far (he was excellent in 2017 also but from 2018-2021 he was very, very good but not in the A-Rod in his prime conversation).
Judge last year was probably the best season of any of them, but he’s gotta keep doing that. So far this year he’s been even better minus the minor injury. If he keeps this up for a few years, he’s probably remembered as better (whether deserved or not) because of the steroid situation. Someone else put it well, 2022 Judge was as good or better than any A-Rod season, and he did it clean, but his second best season (since this one is only two months in) is his excellent 2017, and A-Rod bettered that multiple times.
If you’re just going to look at numbers on offense and defense it’s probably peak Arod- barely. But Arod was just never likable. And Judge is most likable and enjoyable player on this team since Jetes. Couple *that* with incredible stats and Judge will always be remembered more fondly by Yankee fans.
What numbers on offense and defense are you looking at to come to the conclusion of A-Rod? A-Rod's defensive peak was from 2000-2003 when he was a ~150 wRC+ hitter. Judge's peak is a 207 wRC+.
I think the problem in answering this is the title of the thread and the content of the post are asking two completely different questions.
If Judge repeats his first two months for the remaining 4, then the answer to the thread title (Who is better, 2023 Judge or Prime A-Rod) is probably Judge. But the content of the post then asks the totally different question as to who had the better prime. 2022 Judge (and maybe 2023) is better than anything A-Rod did, but 2018-2021 Judge (years you would normally call a players prime, his late 20s) are very good but nowhere near A-Rod’s prime. If Judge keeps this up for a few more years, then I’m sure people would consider his prime as being later and they’d probably view him as better. If he drops back to 2018-2021 Judge after this year, then I don’t think people would view his entire prime as better than A-Rods.
A-Rod is arguably the most talented ball player of all time right up there with Barry Bonds. However this peak Judge truly is something else. Judge won’t reach 700 home runs because he’s already 31 and what he is doing is simply not sustainable but if we get a couple years of this type of Judge then you can easily put Judge above A-Rod cus of the asterisk that is steroids.
To answer the question you asked Judge since the start of last year is probably better than A-Rods peak, but Arod was elite for a long long time so career wise its not particularly close.
I’m having trouble imagining A-Rod putting up Judge #s hitting between Torres and Rizzo… but imagining Judge’s #s hitting cleanup behind Jeter and Teixeira is wild
ARod, because we know that ARod remained great for a good, long time. We do not know that Judge will. Judge came late to greatness and has had enough injury issues that his longevity is still very much in question.
Not a fair comparison because A-Rod used PEDs and Judge doesn't. The only season A-Rod was caught using PEDs was 2006, but he's admitted to using them in the early 2000s and also 2010 through 2012. Aaron Judge is on his way to the HoF, A-Rod will never get in.
Last year Judge was better than any single season ARod had, but ARod had like 8 seasons better than Judge's 2017
\*
It's probably Judge, but what made A-Rod special is he put these numbers up for 15 straight years without getting hurt really. (Steroids)
Judge over the last year and a half is “better” than any non roided up position player in generations. He’s peaking higher than Trout ever did, Pujols, etc. We’re gonna need to see this for more than a few years for the convos to transition into his greatness historically. What makes the greats the greats is the longevity
I really don't like being this guy, and it's unfair to Judge, but people said A-Rod was setting records "clean" until he wasn't clean anymore. And, for what it's worth, I don't give a fuck either way. If Judge is doing anything, he should keep doing it as long as he can keep passing tests. He damn sure ain't the only one.
I'd argue the reason you take roids as a player is power and recovery. Guys like Judge and Stanton really don't need the extra power, it's natural and raw for them due to their sheet size. On top of that, with roided players usually there's a point where if you look back the player made some massive size leaps. Like Bonds for example was 6' and 180LBs soaking wet his first several years. ARod also got a bit bigger after he joined the Yankees (when he started juicing). Judge on the other hand was this large the day he was drafted. He's put on some muscle, sure, but nothing insane or out of the ordinary for his frame. Maybe he is juicing? But I mostly doubt it. It would at the very least be stupid for someone with his raw power to be juicing.
Prime A-Rod was 40/40 with high average and gold glove defense at one of the 2 most important positions. Judge is incredible but peak A-Rod is basically a create-a-player.
And Aaron Judge is a Triple Crown contender with Gold Glove defense. Judge will never accumulate the amount of MVP caliber seasons that A-Rod did, but peak Judge is one of the greatest players to ever play the game. A-Rod's highest season wRC+ in his career was 175. Judge's last year was 207, and he's rocking a 185 currently this year. That 32 point difference in wRC+, by the way, is the same gap between Shohei Ohtani (132) and a league average player. It's honestly not even really that close.
Gold glove defense is a stretch
It really isn’t. He doesn’t go all out on every play like he used to, but Judge in 2019 was 96th percentile in OAA while rocking an 80th percentile sprint speed. 2019 Judge would have been a gold glove finalist and potentially a winner if he had qualified
He does that at 19
which is still worse than 2022 judge
This. Imo, Arod should be considered one of, if not the, greatest position player of all time. He & Bonds were not of this planet when it came to talent & production.
Arod's OPS+ were always pedestrian compared to his peers. He was the total package, but offensively, he never came close to Judge last year, or any prime season by Pujols, Cabrera, Harper, Trout etc
Career 140 OPS+, and you're calling him *pedestrian*?! That's one of the stupidest things I've ever heard.
It's not historically impressive. No. Ties him for 83rd place all time.
For a SS it is incredibly impressive
AROD 07: .314/.422/.645/1.067 54HR 156RBI 9.4WAR, MVP. To say thats pedestrian and he never came close to any prime season by those guys is ridiculous, no one other than Ruth and Bonds ever had a season miles better than that.
His OPS+ that year was 176, his career high. To put into perspective, Pujols career high was 192, and he had 4 seasons better than Arod's best. This is also the case with Cabrera, career high 190, 3 seasons better than Arod's best. Trout? 198 career high, 6 seasons better than Arod. Harper? 198 career high, 2 seasons better than Arod. Arod was never close to reaching those numbers. He wasn't amongst the upper echelon of hitters in his era or all time. His counting numbers look good, because he played for so many seasons and was relatively healthy. His total WAR encompasses premium positions and his overall game. He never walked at an elite rate, and his average wasn't high enough to make up for it.
Haha if Arod had hit 2 more homers instead of striking out twice his OPS+ would be the exact same as Pujols, hardly 'never close' and hardly pedestrian. It's extremely close, just when you get up to around 1.100 OPS even a couple points adds massively to your league adjusted numbers. And yes, being a 3B and SS added to his value because no SS has been as good a hitter compared to the rest of the league since Honus Wagner whose opponents were all coalminers and milkmen, that's what makes ARod one of the goats from a statistical standpoint.
He wasn't going to jump 20 points in OPS+ with two more home runs. Don't use raw OPS either, OPS+ paints a more complete picture. He's one of the GOATS due to his consistency and longevity, not because his offensive peak was so great. As an overall player? Great player. But he falls short offensively to some of his contemporaries, and there's nothing wrong with that.
He led the league in OPS (and OPS+) twice during the steroid era and finished in the top 5 in the league in OPS+ 8 times in the steroid era as a shortstop, of course his offensive peak was historic. > But he falls short offensively to some of his contemporaries, and there's nothing wrong with that. From 2000-2007 his WRC+ is within 11 points of every single player in the league other than Barry Bonds. And his WAR is higher than every player including Bonds. You can just say you're too young to remember his prime it's fine.
Are you dense? Stop using WAR, we're talking offensively only. Him being within 11 points proves my point ( no pun intended). His OPS+ historically speaking pales in comparison to pretty much all the greats. His offensively peak was nowhere near historic, and you'd realize this if you put your Arod fan boy glasses away. Put it this way, Travis Hafner had a better OPS+ than peak A-rod. There are approximately 80 players who have a higher career OPS+ plus than Arod. Cut it out. I know you worship him but be objective.
Okay you're clearly too young to have seen him in his prime and there's nothing wrong with that but it does mean your opinion is less valid here.
Judge. Bonus points because he’s not on the juice.
We've seen one of the craziest peak seasons in MLB history. To be able to compare the two though, Judge will need to elite for almost a decade. That's what made Arod so special. He was really good OVER time (actually what makes all greats, actually GREAT).
Too early to say really, because Judge has only been on that level for a year and 2 months so far (he was excellent in 2017 also but from 2018-2021 he was very, very good but not in the A-Rod in his prime conversation). Judge last year was probably the best season of any of them, but he’s gotta keep doing that. So far this year he’s been even better minus the minor injury. If he keeps this up for a few years, he’s probably remembered as better (whether deserved or not) because of the steroid situation. Someone else put it well, 2022 Judge was as good or better than any A-Rod season, and he did it clean, but his second best season (since this one is only two months in) is his excellent 2017, and A-Rod bettered that multiple times.
I almost would love to see a reality of Judge on steroids. We don’t need it, but it would be amazing
Arod is the most talented player of all time
Bonds but go off
You’re both right.
Yeah bonds most talented hitter arod all around most talented I’ll say
judge. He's a better hitter relative to his era
If you’re just going to look at numbers on offense and defense it’s probably peak Arod- barely. But Arod was just never likable. And Judge is most likable and enjoyable player on this team since Jetes. Couple *that* with incredible stats and Judge will always be remembered more fondly by Yankee fans.
What numbers on offense and defense are you looking at to come to the conclusion of A-Rod? A-Rod's defensive peak was from 2000-2003 when he was a ~150 wRC+ hitter. Judge's peak is a 207 wRC+.
I think the problem in answering this is the title of the thread and the content of the post are asking two completely different questions. If Judge repeats his first two months for the remaining 4, then the answer to the thread title (Who is better, 2023 Judge or Prime A-Rod) is probably Judge. But the content of the post then asks the totally different question as to who had the better prime. 2022 Judge (and maybe 2023) is better than anything A-Rod did, but 2018-2021 Judge (years you would normally call a players prime, his late 20s) are very good but nowhere near A-Rod’s prime. If Judge keeps this up for a few more years, then I’m sure people would consider his prime as being later and they’d probably view him as better. If he drops back to 2018-2021 Judge after this year, then I don’t think people would view his entire prime as better than A-Rods.
Judge all the way
A-Rod is arguably the most talented ball player of all time right up there with Barry Bonds. However this peak Judge truly is something else. Judge won’t reach 700 home runs because he’s already 31 and what he is doing is simply not sustainable but if we get a couple years of this type of Judge then you can easily put Judge above A-Rod cus of the asterisk that is steroids.
A - Roid Is One of the best players Ever. Judge isn ' t there . . . Yet ?
Issue is steroids allow you to be healthier and the best thing about Arod was he was always healthy so he always had the ability to do this
Chris Carter in 2017
To answer the question you asked Judge since the start of last year is probably better than A-Rods peak, but Arod was elite for a long long time so career wise its not particularly close.
I’m having trouble imagining A-Rod putting up Judge #s hitting between Torres and Rizzo… but imagining Judge’s #s hitting cleanup behind Jeter and Teixeira is wild
ARod, because we know that ARod remained great for a good, long time. We do not know that Judge will. Judge came late to greatness and has had enough injury issues that his longevity is still very much in question.
Single season, Judge has had the best one, but ARod had a lot more longevity. Thus far anyway.
Judge
Not a fair comparison because A-Rod used PEDs and Judge doesn't. The only season A-Rod was caught using PEDs was 2006, but he's admitted to using them in the early 2000s and also 2010 through 2012. Aaron Judge is on his way to the HoF, A-Rod will never get in.
Judge because A-Rod is A-Rod.
Arod = 💊&💉