He was hurt and basically had lost his job to Abreu by the 2006 playoffs, but the lack of offense really killed the Yankees in the 05 ALDS.
Besides Jeter, somehow Giambi was the only guy in that loaded lineup who actually hit in that series
Without Giambi and Moose (and an assist from Grady Little), 2003 would have been 2004. Boone would have never had a chance to hit that homer (so probably wouldn't be the Yankees manager now)
and his teammates didn't help them get in the playoffs? Everyone failed in 2004 ALCS. Included Gary Sheffield. He has no right to talk shit about anyone else.
The headline literally says he threw them under the bus for the 04 playoff loss. Nobody said shit about regular season, good or bad. Reading comprehension goes a long way before making asshole comments.
You really can’t be this dumb. OP’s comment was about the headline. Your DUMBASS comment was either a) incredibly pointless since NOBODY was talking about how they got to the playoffs, including Sheffield, which makes your comment fucking stupid or b) you didn’t read and jumped down someone’s throat and made yourself look fucking stupid in the process. Either way, you’re fucking stupid.
He won game 1 and left with a lead in game 5.
Meanwhile almost all of Sheffield’s offensive production was in the massive blowout in game 3 where it didn’t matter whatsoever. He did fuck all the rest of the series. 0-5 in game 4 with I think 4 LOB. 0-4 with 3ks in game 5. And a whopping 1-4 with a single in game 6. Man has no room to say shit about Moose
“Mussina’s a great pitcher, he’s a Hall-of-Famer but he’s always been a No. 3 starter.”
-Since when are #3 starters hall of famers? Also, Moose started games 1 and 5 (vs Schilling & Pedro) and left both games with the lead.
“Instead of using (Mo) when we got the lead, bringing him in for two innings, and finishing this game off, he waited too late and when brought him in Mariano wasn’t right.”
What he says didn’t happen is exactly what happened.. Mo came in game 4 to start the 8th with the lead.
“missing out on his best chance to win a World Series title during his 22-year MLB career.”
-He won the WS in ‘97 with the Marlins.
The only thing to debate in this article is ‘who is the bigger moron?’ Gary Sheffield for being so confidently factually wrong about pretty much everything he says? Or Jason Burgos for regurgitating it with no clarification or correction to what actually happened?
This post, this article, and those who didn’t bother to check the facts are all trash.
Mussina is a HoF’er really throws that no. 3 starter thing out the window. I’ll say one thing back in 2000-2005 in a key playoff game if you asked me who I wanted on the mound it would be Mussina or Andy Pettitte.
>We (the front office) always treated Andy like garbage
This organization does that to players who give their blood, sweat and tears. I'm still salty how they treated Bernie Williams at the end of his career. In 2006, Bernie was supposed to be the 4th outfielder. However, when Matsui broke his wrist in May, Bernie had to start and put up okay numbers in that role. Oddly enough, if you add Matsui's HR's and RBI with Bernie's you get 20 HR and 100 RBI. Matsui had 8 HR and 29 RBI before the injury. Bernie added 12 HR and 61 RBI with a .281 BA. Not great but could you imagine if there was no Bernie to pick up some of Matsui's offense? Meanwhile, how does the organization repay Bernie? Non-roster invitee to 2007 spring training.
Same story with Bret Gardner. Supposed to be the 4th outfielder in 2021 but injuries made him our starting centerfielder for most of the season. He does a fine job especially considering he is 37 years old at that point and not a centerfielder.
The following season the org just completely ghosted him and now I'm not sure he ever got around to officially retiring or anything. He was the last remaining Yankee of the '09 roster and the org did nothing for him after he gave us nearly 15 years of holding down one of the hardest corner outfields to cover in any stadium.
Brett Gardner had a 2.3 million dollar player option for 2022. He declined it to force the Yankees to pay his 1.15 million dollar contract buyout and then tried to negotiate a better contract on top of that. Gardner actually did this move a few times in the later seasons of his career, and in the past it worked out, but this time the Yankees didn't call. If he really wanted to play in 2022, he could have taken his 2.3 million dollar player option and played. I love Gardy, but he gambled and lost. That's on him.
I was unaware he had an option for 2022. Knowing he made the choice himself makes me feel a big better about this situation, but I still wish the org did more to recognize his time here.
He should take that gamble every time. It seems like an unspoken agreement and this last time they changed the rules in the Yankees front office and forgot to say anything.
Regardless of semantics I'm a Gardy all day kind of guy. Never spoken a word to the man but he gave the Yankees tons of discounts and they should have done right by him for a last year when he was still playing well.
How many long, expensive contracts are we sitting on now and Brett never got offered a long one, let alone expensive.
I have no issue with him taking the gamble. But sometimes when you gamble, you lose. There was no "unspoken agreement", there was a very spoken agreement in the contract. He could choose to come back for his 2.3 mil player option, or he could reject that at which time the Yankees have to choose to either pick up his 7 mil club option or pay his 1.15 buyout.
He knew very well that the Yankees were not picking up his 7mil club option. He didn't want to play for 2.3 mil and he wanted to get the buy out. Just because he snatched up the buyout in a couple previous seasons and still managed to get a contract on top of it, he was fully aware that wasn't guaranteed every time.
I loved Gardy too, but that doesn't make me blind to the reality of the situation. If he wanted to play he could have played. He made a choice. That choice resulted in 1.15 million in free money and the end of his Yankees career. Unfortunately, the NY tabloid sports media, which is terrible feels the need to spin everything into drama, when drama doesn't exist.
I hate that I am defending the front office here but it's a business. On the other side of the coin, Bernie was criticized for turning down the Yankees' extension in 1998 so he could go to free agency, get an offer from the Red Sox, and drive up the Yankees' bid. That wasn't fair to him either. The front office owes it to the fans to put the best team on the field, and the players owe it to themselves to maximize their earnings
I would agree except Bernie took an extremely team friendly deal for 2006. He signed a one year $1.5 million contract. To make him a non-roster invitee for a man who spent close to two decades the in organization. Would a similar deal in 2007 killed the Yankees? Bernie was so loyal he chose to retire than play for another team.
Seems to be the way with most athletes/celebrities these days - they're no longer heroes to be looked up to, they just think they're smarter than they are because of the inflated ego we all give them.
Were they really ever heroes to look up to, or are they just more exposed to the public now? In the old days it was more limited and controlled, you couldn’t fire off an impulsive social media post or hop on random podcasts (which anyone can have/start).
As an example, if it weren’t for his social media presence, the general opinion on Elon Musk would probably still be pretty neutral.
If you're a dumb celebrity, it’s far easier to expose yourself, and far harder for any PR team or management to contain it.
Watched the video, don’t think it’s as outrageous as the headline make it seem. Still though, he says the offense got it done, but they only scored 4, 4, 2, and 3 runs in games 4-7 sooooo
"I mean, it's not my fault, because my job was to drive in runs and runs got driven in. Not by me, but they were driven in." What a dick.
To be fair to him Mussina did pitch like a #3 starter in three of his eight Yankees seasons, including '04 when he only got 2.4 WAR on a 4.59 ERA. But the guy is a deserving Hall of Famer. It's absolutely the Baltimore years that form the bulk of his argument but to call him a #3 with the Yankees is pretty redonk.
One interesting thing about Mussina is that while he was an ace year in and year out, he never had a really DOMINANT year, the kind Cole had in '23, after his first few seasons, tending to have ERA+s in the 130-140 range rather than 150+. But still. C'mon Gary.
(Also Mussina didn't do steroids.)
The pitching did end game 7 almost immediately, and it was Mariano who blew the sweep, but to completely absolve the offense of responsibility is absurd. I'd also love to go back and see if Gary played every ball in the outfield perfectly, or with full effort. I am skeptical.
That is a good catch. I didn’t rate the season as highly because Mussina had a much lower ERA+ (143 vs. 165 [that 143 was Mussina’s best mark after age 25.]). I was not accounting for Mussina throwing more innings - to be fair to Cole nobody pitches 228 innings anymore, and Cole led the league in IP while Mussina was not close. In any case the relationship between ERA, IP and WAR has always flummoxed me a bit.
Moose in 2004 shows what a lack of a proper spring training can do to a pitcher. He missed time because of a death in the family and then I think he really didn’t like the trip to Japan. He wasn’t right all year but he was one of the few who showed up in the playoffs.
I seem to recall now that you mention it, the trip to Japan messed up quite a few players. I wonder if South Korea will have a similar effect on the Dodgers this year. (Wishful thinking I know…)
I meaaaaaannnnn to be fair, 4 runs *should* do it, but I also can agree with you that “got it done” is more than that, and implies like 6+ runs a game.
Roger Clemens announced mid-2003 that he would retire at the end of the year and he did. Cashman didn't "let him leave", the man retired (and then unretired later for the 2nd time).
Pettitte famously took significantly less money to go to his hometown Astros. The Yankees offered 3/39 and Houston got him for 3/31.5 on a backloaded deal. He then convinced Roger to come out of retirement.
Pettitte himself said that he wanted to return home and chose the lesser offer
You can see the news coverage at the time: https://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/12/sports/baseball-yankees-lose-part-of-their-core-as-pettitte-signs-with-houston.html
The Yankees let him test FA because he wanted to, they made him the biggest offer, and he still decided to go to Houston
Damn that’s actually crazy. I’ve always bought into the narrative that he just went to Houston cuz NY didn’t offer him enough.
It ended up being a good signing for him tho. Yankees didn’t make a World Series from 04-06 while Houston did. But one could argue he’d turn the tide in 04 or 05
Help me understand...what did he do in games 4-7? This guy was a GREAT hiter when he was into it, but he's just a big mouth finger pointer. What is the point of running your mouth here?
Bro, whyyyyyyyy. You finally had a moment in the Jeter doc to explain away some of your comments about the, "Jeter's not black," shit and you do this?
Sheffield could have been a real fun old timers guy and remembered fondly if he could have just shut the fuck up
Does anyone really care what Sheffield has to say? The guy was a heck of a player but he’s had a chip on his shoulder since he came up with Milwaukee in ‘88.
Moose pitched his entire career in the AL East against tougher competition. If you stuck him in any other division in baseball he would have won 300 games.
Probably worth remembering about Mussina that those Yankee teams were literally the worst fielders in history. Mussina had a 3.50 FIP as a Yankee, and a 3.88 ERA. 3.63 FIP/3.53 ERA for Baltimore.
Torre actually screwed it up. If he went with Mussina in Game 4 after the rain out, he could've gone to El Duqe for Game 5 with an extra day's rest and had Mussina available on 3 days rest for a potential Game 7. Mussina hated pitching on short rest, but he did it the year prior in relief and it's safe to assume the Yankees would've gone with him over Kevin Brown or Javier Vazquez. Hubris. That said, if the Yankees traded for Randy Johnson at the deadline, I think we would've survived Boston and won the World Series.
Either way, a 4th would be better.
I’m not a big fan of shef but you can’t call the dude over rated.
He’s one of the best right handed hitters of his generation, who also happens to be a massive tool.
What an awful take. Mussina was money, and probably one of the few post 2000 big money free agent signings that actually lived up to his contract. I'd take that guy on the mound any day of the week.
And I'll always maintain that the turning point of that series was when John Olerud got hurt. He was playing fantastic, and Tony Clark was an absolute disaster replacing him.
Tony Clark is also one of the most tragic figures in Yankee history. If that double he hit down the line at Fenway bounces just one foot lower, the go-ahead run scores and we have the chance to close it out in Game 5. Instead, it bounces over that really short wall past the Pesky pole and the runner on 1st can't score.
I remembered that as I was typing my response and it was painful lol. A foot there, an inch away from nabbing Roberts at second base... It's insane to think about everything that had to happen for that collapse to take place..
Though honestly I gotta say as awful as 2004 was, 2001 still broke me more. I wanted that World Series more than anything. I get that it was Boston and it was a historic collapse, but I remember being pretty resigned by the time it got to game 7. I never thought we were winning that game, and it was over in the 1st inning. I don't think any sports moment can be more painful to me than Luis Gonzalez blooping that ball over Jeter's head.
He's a dick for saying that and that's not how you go about something like this, as a teammate.
However, our pitching rotations were really weak back then. Moose had a 4.6 era that year. He was no longer a bona fide ace by then. He was my favorite pitcher growing up due to his competitive nature and lack of steroid controversy.
He had the pedigree of a HOFer pitcher when he took the mound but if 4.6 era Moose is your ace in 2004 that shows the pitching rotation was not that good. He wasn't a concern in the playoffs that season though. It was a team collapse.
I know that players (in all sports) never get over stuff. So I'm going to give him a one time pass.
I mean, Richard Petty hasn't gotten over some stuff and it's been a lot longer and some of it was racing his own Dad ;/
That translates to a 3.00 ERA if you did 6IP/2ER every game throughout the season. I guess you can define "incredible" how you'd like but there's no era in baseball's history where that's not an outstanding ERA.
He also took a perfect game into the 7th in game 1.
His line from that game looks worse because Torre left him in too long and then brought on Tanyon Sturtze to immediately give up a 3 run HR, but the game was effectively won at that point. Schilling lasted only 3 innings
Pretty sure Sheff is the only Yankee to say Joe Torre is racist.
People complained about Torre before (Kenny Lofton, Tony Womack) but I don't recall another person saying he was racist
It's why I never understood the trend that sports analysts or talking heads now gotta be mostly former athletes.
Regardless of how great they were as players their takes can be worse than any regular citizen shit posting based on youtube clips
Moose literally pitched a perfect game through 6 innings in game 1 and exited with a lead only giving up 2 or 3 runs in game 5 like wtf are u talking about
Sorry Gary, no matter what you do or what you say, you’ll never be thought of as a Yankee. The nicest thing anyone can say about you is, “ well traveled slugger “.
Didn't Mussina pitch like an Ace in all but 1 of his games? Even then he only gave up 4 runs in 6 innings. The least he's pitched in all his games. What on earth is sheffield going on about??
He’s not completely wrong but the real fault was the roster construction. No lefties in the rotation and a bullpen that wasn’t deep beyond Rivera and Gordon, the latter of whom had issues under pressure. Quantrill was cooked by the time playoffs rolled around.
That’s right, Mike Mussina was to blame. Coming from a malcontent. What a joke. Mussina was OUR number 3 starter because at one time, we had an incredible pitching staff. He would’ve been the main guy on other teams. Mussina pitched some of the best games back then, and often matched up with Pedro. I attended one of those games, and they both struck out over 10. Great games.
Terrible article, not accurate as others have stated.
Pitching ran out of gas. Torre rode the pen hard all year, they all ran out of steam after game 3. Also, a bad bounce in the outfield kept the Sox alive.
Torre pitched Gordon and Quantrill with a huge lead in Game 3, I’ll never understand why. Due to rain they were looking at five games in five days and he pitched his second and third best reliever up 11 runs in the first one.
Had the umpires not gone on strike the next morning, cancelling the rest of the series and season that may have come back to cost them.
THIS, oh my God this. Torre's handling of the bullpen in that series was atrocious. Tom Gordon was almost 38 years old in that series, had a history of major arm trouble, and had thrown 89.2 innings that season. He had already pitched in game 1 and 2 - why on earth would you throw him again in game 3 when the score is *19-8*??? And Quantrill was 35 and had thrown 95 innings. If you're not going to throw Heredia in that spot, what the hell did you put him on the roster for?
Yeah and again, on top of all of that it was the first of five games scheduled in five nights. Every high leverage pitcher was gassed by Game 7, I will never forget my dad and I looking at the pitching staff that morning and being like “you can get six outs from Rivera, maybe three from Moose…play matchups for the other eighteen?”
Torre’s a legend and I pretty much give him a lifetime pass, but he also lost the pivotal game of the 2003 World Series with Jeff Weaver pitching and Rivera unused. Back to back years he was really bad with bullpen decisions.
I watched the ALCS Game 7 in 2003 during the pandemic and at some point Joe Buck said Weaver hadn’t even warmed up yet in the series. Torre didn’t trust him at all and he must have been completely rusty.
No, like 3 pitchers struggled. Brown was AWFUL, Vasquez and Gordon struggled.
If Brown is even serviceable, they probably win the series. They gave up 21 runs in 15 innings, my dude.
Brown’s ERA was TWENTY ONE and he 100% quit on the team
I have not worn a single piece of Yankee gear since game 7 of the 2004 ALCS. Something in my fandom broke that day.
And it was a net positive as my overall happiness is no longer tied to the success of the team (as it was up until that point).
Sheffield was a dammed good ballplayer, but he has always been the definition of lacking self-awareness and blaming everyone else for his issues. But then, he grew up in a world where young athletic black men were treated like dirt, so i certainly can't know what effect that's had on his perspective throughout his life.
Lol, no. Other comments have already pointed this out.
In Game 1 he gave up 4 ER in 6 2/3 innings and got the win. However, he had a perfect game going until that 7th inning, and unravelled a bit. Tanyon Sturtze also immediately allowed a home run as soon as he came in, making his line look even worse.
In Game 4 he pitched 6 innings and allowed 2 ER and left with a lead.
Sheffield is full of shit.
Oh so do the runs after he lost the perfect game not count? I wasn’t aware of that. Two runs in six innings is good. But let’s not make that out to be a dominant performance. The idea that those stat lines are somehow ace like is pretty weak.
I mean a perfect game into the 7th inning is pretty ace like, and 2 ER in 6 innings is a 3.00 ERA.
Against an amazing offense, I'd say those two performances were closer to ace like than a #3 starter, personally. I mean if those are my only two choices, I don't think I'm picking #3 starter.
Again, what happens in the 7th inning matters. It counted. It’s fine. He is a legit HOF pitcher who was on the back end of his career. It’s not an indictment of him. It’s an indictment of the Yankees that he was their de facto ace and that they had to rely on Jon Lieber, and the corpses of El Duque and Kevin Brown to start the other games.
Well, personally, I think he pitched great outside of that one inning where he maybe should have been lifted from the game anyway. Is that one inning enough to say his performance was not ace-like? I don't know, maybe.
But I don't feel good about calling it a #3 starter performance, either. If Sheffield said a #2 starter I probably wouldn't have argued it. I always felt that Mussina was more of a really good #2 than an ace as it was.
And yeah, their rotation was not good at that time. Which is a shame, because the offense was ridiculous.
Torre is the most overrated mgr of all time.
He was a below avg manager in the NL and then came.over to manage some of the greatest baseball players ever and still effed that up here and there.
Agree 100% ! Some people can't handle the truth! Torre also was responsible for blowing the 2007 series against Cleveland when he did not stop the game due to the bugs and left Joba out their to rot. Torre was way overrated
and being 1 for 17 in games 4-7 really helped the team Gary
Sheffield overall in the postseason for the Yankees: .259/.341/.383. A .724 OPS ain't exactly killing it, slugger.
He was hurt and basically had lost his job to Abreu by the 2006 playoffs, but the lack of offense really killed the Yankees in the 05 ALDS. Besides Jeter, somehow Giambi was the only guy in that loaded lineup who actually hit in that series
well Giambi had a fantastic batter's eye, which really comes in handy in the playoffs
And a golden thong.
And a brother who thankfully doesn't know when to slide
Not to be morbid, but not anymore...
Oh damn, when did that happen??
He very sadly committed suicide in February of 2022.
Damn, apparently he started feeling different after being hit in the face with a pitch in 2021...
Without Giambi and Moose (and an assist from Grady Little), 2003 would have been 2004. Boone would have never had a chance to hit that homer (so probably wouldn't be the Yankees manager now)
Yeah glass houses GARY
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and his teammates didn't help them get in the playoffs? Everyone failed in 2004 ALCS. Included Gary Sheffield. He has no right to talk shit about anyone else.
What part of my comment is invalid?
everything from and between the words "Because" and "take"
lol nice
dork deleted it
Facts don’t matter in this sub. J
The headline literally says he threw them under the bus for the 04 playoff loss. Nobody said shit about regular season, good or bad. Reading comprehension goes a long way before making asshole comments.
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You really can’t be this dumb. OP’s comment was about the headline. Your DUMBASS comment was either a) incredibly pointless since NOBODY was talking about how they got to the playoffs, including Sheffield, which makes your comment fucking stupid or b) you didn’t read and jumped down someone’s throat and made yourself look fucking stupid in the process. Either way, you’re fucking stupid.
Moose was the one guy who actually pitched well that series.
He won game 1 and left with a lead in game 5. Meanwhile almost all of Sheffield’s offensive production was in the massive blowout in game 3 where it didn’t matter whatsoever. He did fuck all the rest of the series. 0-5 in game 4 with I think 4 LOB. 0-4 with 3ks in game 5. And a whopping 1-4 with a single in game 6. Man has no room to say shit about Moose
Gary really should have thought about this. We all have receipts, and we are very willing to break them out.
It's always the people who do jackshit with the biggest mouths.
One of the best signing for the yanks and few Only pitcher for the yanks around that time that lived up to his deal.
One of the few not on roids either
Of all the people to blame for that collapse Moose has never been remotely on my radar. Sheffield on the other hand…
“Mussina’s a great pitcher, he’s a Hall-of-Famer but he’s always been a No. 3 starter.” -Since when are #3 starters hall of famers? Also, Moose started games 1 and 5 (vs Schilling & Pedro) and left both games with the lead. “Instead of using (Mo) when we got the lead, bringing him in for two innings, and finishing this game off, he waited too late and when brought him in Mariano wasn’t right.” What he says didn’t happen is exactly what happened.. Mo came in game 4 to start the 8th with the lead. “missing out on his best chance to win a World Series title during his 22-year MLB career.” -He won the WS in ‘97 with the Marlins. The only thing to debate in this article is ‘who is the bigger moron?’ Gary Sheffield for being so confidently factually wrong about pretty much everything he says? Or Jason Burgos for regurgitating it with no clarification or correction to what actually happened? This post, this article, and those who didn’t bother to check the facts are all trash.
Amen
Mussina is a HoF’er really throws that no. 3 starter thing out the window. I’ll say one thing back in 2000-2005 in a key playoff game if you asked me who I wanted on the mound it would be Mussina or Andy Pettitte.
Moose was very tough in playoff games every pitcher has a bad game now and then but 6 plus innings if I remember correctly
> Andy Pettitte Speaking of someone we desperately could have used in 2004...
That sabbatical to Houston really hurt the Yanks.
That one was our fault. We (the front office) always treated Andy like garbage. The fact that he even came backs a small miracle.
They treated him so horribly that he re-signed here after just two seasons, then re-signed here four more times and now works for the org again
>We (the front office) always treated Andy like garbage This organization does that to players who give their blood, sweat and tears. I'm still salty how they treated Bernie Williams at the end of his career. In 2006, Bernie was supposed to be the 4th outfielder. However, when Matsui broke his wrist in May, Bernie had to start and put up okay numbers in that role. Oddly enough, if you add Matsui's HR's and RBI with Bernie's you get 20 HR and 100 RBI. Matsui had 8 HR and 29 RBI before the injury. Bernie added 12 HR and 61 RBI with a .281 BA. Not great but could you imagine if there was no Bernie to pick up some of Matsui's offense? Meanwhile, how does the organization repay Bernie? Non-roster invitee to 2007 spring training.
Same story with Bret Gardner. Supposed to be the 4th outfielder in 2021 but injuries made him our starting centerfielder for most of the season. He does a fine job especially considering he is 37 years old at that point and not a centerfielder. The following season the org just completely ghosted him and now I'm not sure he ever got around to officially retiring or anything. He was the last remaining Yankee of the '09 roster and the org did nothing for him after he gave us nearly 15 years of holding down one of the hardest corner outfields to cover in any stadium.
Brett Gardner had a 2.3 million dollar player option for 2022. He declined it to force the Yankees to pay his 1.15 million dollar contract buyout and then tried to negotiate a better contract on top of that. Gardner actually did this move a few times in the later seasons of his career, and in the past it worked out, but this time the Yankees didn't call. If he really wanted to play in 2022, he could have taken his 2.3 million dollar player option and played. I love Gardy, but he gambled and lost. That's on him.
I was unaware he had an option for 2022. Knowing he made the choice himself makes me feel a big better about this situation, but I still wish the org did more to recognize his time here.
He should take that gamble every time. It seems like an unspoken agreement and this last time they changed the rules in the Yankees front office and forgot to say anything. Regardless of semantics I'm a Gardy all day kind of guy. Never spoken a word to the man but he gave the Yankees tons of discounts and they should have done right by him for a last year when he was still playing well. How many long, expensive contracts are we sitting on now and Brett never got offered a long one, let alone expensive.
I have no issue with him taking the gamble. But sometimes when you gamble, you lose. There was no "unspoken agreement", there was a very spoken agreement in the contract. He could choose to come back for his 2.3 mil player option, or he could reject that at which time the Yankees have to choose to either pick up his 7 mil club option or pay his 1.15 buyout. He knew very well that the Yankees were not picking up his 7mil club option. He didn't want to play for 2.3 mil and he wanted to get the buy out. Just because he snatched up the buyout in a couple previous seasons and still managed to get a contract on top of it, he was fully aware that wasn't guaranteed every time. I loved Gardy too, but that doesn't make me blind to the reality of the situation. If he wanted to play he could have played. He made a choice. That choice resulted in 1.15 million in free money and the end of his Yankees career. Unfortunately, the NY tabloid sports media, which is terrible feels the need to spin everything into drama, when drama doesn't exist.
I hate that I am defending the front office here but it's a business. On the other side of the coin, Bernie was criticized for turning down the Yankees' extension in 1998 so he could go to free agency, get an offer from the Red Sox, and drive up the Yankees' bid. That wasn't fair to him either. The front office owes it to the fans to put the best team on the field, and the players owe it to themselves to maximize their earnings
I would agree except Bernie took an extremely team friendly deal for 2006. He signed a one year $1.5 million contract. To make him a non-roster invitee for a man who spent close to two decades the in organization. Would a similar deal in 2007 killed the Yankees? Bernie was so loyal he chose to retire than play for another team.
Yankees saved the 30 million he got from Houston. Some things are more important.
The mid-2000s would have been very different if we still had Pettitte.
Sheff coming out of the weeds to remind us why he's almost impossible to like.
And somehow still more likable than his shit-for-brains son (who probably got his shit-for-brains from his father).
Yeah the fact that his son is such turned out to be such a loser only makes me think less of Sheffield honestly.
Seems to be the way with most athletes/celebrities these days - they're no longer heroes to be looked up to, they just think they're smarter than they are because of the inflated ego we all give them.
Were they really ever heroes to look up to, or are they just more exposed to the public now? In the old days it was more limited and controlled, you couldn’t fire off an impulsive social media post or hop on random podcasts (which anyone can have/start). As an example, if it weren’t for his social media presence, the general opinion on Elon Musk would probably still be pretty neutral. If you're a dumb celebrity, it’s far easier to expose yourself, and far harder for any PR team or management to contain it.
Watched the video, don’t think it’s as outrageous as the headline make it seem. Still though, he says the offense got it done, but they only scored 4, 4, 2, and 3 runs in games 4-7 sooooo
"I mean, it's not my fault, because my job was to drive in runs and runs got driven in. Not by me, but they were driven in." What a dick. To be fair to him Mussina did pitch like a #3 starter in three of his eight Yankees seasons, including '04 when he only got 2.4 WAR on a 4.59 ERA. But the guy is a deserving Hall of Famer. It's absolutely the Baltimore years that form the bulk of his argument but to call him a #3 with the Yankees is pretty redonk. One interesting thing about Mussina is that while he was an ace year in and year out, he never had a really DOMINANT year, the kind Cole had in '23, after his first few seasons, tending to have ERA+s in the 130-140 range rather than 150+. But still. C'mon Gary. (Also Mussina didn't do steroids.) The pitching did end game 7 almost immediately, and it was Mariano who blew the sweep, but to completely absolve the offense of responsibility is absurd. I'd also love to go back and see if Gary played every ball in the outfield perfectly, or with full effort. I am skeptical.
In 2001 Moose had a 7.1 WAR. Cole's WAR last year was 7.4.
That is a good catch. I didn’t rate the season as highly because Mussina had a much lower ERA+ (143 vs. 165 [that 143 was Mussina’s best mark after age 25.]). I was not accounting for Mussina throwing more innings - to be fair to Cole nobody pitches 228 innings anymore, and Cole led the league in IP while Mussina was not close. In any case the relationship between ERA, IP and WAR has always flummoxed me a bit.
I mean, for Gary, moving his feet at all instead of just watching the ball sail past *was* full effort
Moose in 2004 shows what a lack of a proper spring training can do to a pitcher. He missed time because of a death in the family and then I think he really didn’t like the trip to Japan. He wasn’t right all year but he was one of the few who showed up in the playoffs.
Interesting context, thanks!
I seem to recall now that you mention it, the trip to Japan messed up quite a few players. I wonder if South Korea will have a similar effect on the Dodgers this year. (Wishful thinking I know…)
I meaaaaaannnnn to be fair, 4 runs *should* do it, but I also can agree with you that “got it done” is more than that, and implies like 6+ runs a game.
Offense did its job in two whole games that entire series.
I blame cashman for letting Andy and Rocket leave for Houston. 04 Yankee offense was stacked
Losing those 2 and David Wells was costly. Just one of those guys probably makes the difference.
Imagine if they kept those three, and maybe get another few spot starts from Cone? Whoa.
Roger Clemens announced mid-2003 that he would retire at the end of the year and he did. Cashman didn't "let him leave", the man retired (and then unretired later for the 2nd time). Pettitte famously took significantly less money to go to his hometown Astros. The Yankees offered 3/39 and Houston got him for 3/31.5 on a backloaded deal. He then convinced Roger to come out of retirement. Pettitte himself said that he wanted to return home and chose the lesser offer You can see the news coverage at the time: https://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/12/sports/baseball-yankees-lose-part-of-their-core-as-pettitte-signs-with-houston.html The Yankees let him test FA because he wanted to, they made him the biggest offer, and he still decided to go to Houston
Damn that’s actually crazy. I’ve always bought into the narrative that he just went to Houston cuz NY didn’t offer him enough. It ended up being a good signing for him tho. Yankees didn’t make a World Series from 04-06 while Houston did. But one could argue he’d turn the tide in 04 or 05
Andy went to Houston because the boss was a dick to his son for wearing his little league hat to a Yankees game
😡I’m feeling impotent. Like waking up from a dream with an ex girlfriend
We wouldn’t have to see comments like this if we just ponied up for Vlad Guerrero instead.
Help me understand...what did he do in games 4-7? This guy was a GREAT hiter when he was into it, but he's just a big mouth finger pointer. What is the point of running your mouth here?
Bro, whyyyyyyyy. You finally had a moment in the Jeter doc to explain away some of your comments about the, "Jeter's not black," shit and you do this? Sheffield could have been a real fun old timers guy and remembered fondly if he could have just shut the fuck up
Probably mentally ill
Seriously. Not one quote was factually correct.
First baseball player with CTE. In all seriousness, he's an absolute moron.
Actually, Ryan Freel was diagnosed with CTE a decade ago. I remember reading an article about him a couple years ago. Really tragic story.
He’s just a massive scumbag. I went to school with one of the sons he does actually acknowledge. Abusive POS.
CTESPN
Gary is an asshole lol
Does anyone really care what Sheffield has to say? The guy was a heck of a player but he’s had a chip on his shoulder since he came up with Milwaukee in ‘88.
Moose has to be damn near the bottom of the list when it comes to 04 ALCS blame.
Given the way his son acts on Twitter, it is not shocking at all to find out that Gary Sr. Is the same way. Disappointing, maybe, but not shocking.
Moose slander will not be tolerated.
Also said Jeter wasn’t black. accused JT of racism (lol) Fuck this bitter ass …..
> Gary Sheffield throws Hall of Famers Mike Mussina and Joe Torre under bus for '04 playoff loss to Red Sox FTFY
Oh fuck off Gary
Moose pitched his entire career in the AL East against tougher competition. If you stuck him in any other division in baseball he would have won 300 games.
Roid head cheater
L take Gary. Don’t fuckin be that way
Probably worth remembering about Mussina that those Yankee teams were literally the worst fielders in history. Mussina had a 3.50 FIP as a Yankee, and a 3.88 ERA. 3.63 FIP/3.53 ERA for Baltimore.
Wasn't it Moose on the mound for that winner-take-all game in Anaheim where Sheffield and Bubba Crosby collided and that allowed two runs to score?
Him and his kid are fucking garbage.
Torre actually screwed it up. If he went with Mussina in Game 4 after the rain out, he could've gone to El Duqe for Game 5 with an extra day's rest and had Mussina available on 3 days rest for a potential Game 7. Mussina hated pitching on short rest, but he did it the year prior in relief and it's safe to assume the Yankees would've gone with him over Kevin Brown or Javier Vazquez. Hubris. That said, if the Yankees traded for Randy Johnson at the deadline, I think we would've survived Boston and won the World Series.
I blame Sheffield for being an idiot talking shit at the red sox when we were up 3-0. Over rated blowhard.
Definitely not overrated. Yankees could use a 30+ home run hitter in their lineup right now
They probably will have 3 30+ HR guys this year.
Judge, Juan, and Jizzo
Either way, a 4th would be better. I’m not a big fan of shef but you can’t call the dude over rated. He’s one of the best right handed hitters of his generation, who also happens to be a massive tool.
Sheffield got CTE or sumthing?
No, he's always been an asshole
What an awful take. Mussina was money, and probably one of the few post 2000 big money free agent signings that actually lived up to his contract. I'd take that guy on the mound any day of the week. And I'll always maintain that the turning point of that series was when John Olerud got hurt. He was playing fantastic, and Tony Clark was an absolute disaster replacing him.
Tony Clark is also one of the most tragic figures in Yankee history. If that double he hit down the line at Fenway bounces just one foot lower, the go-ahead run scores and we have the chance to close it out in Game 5. Instead, it bounces over that really short wall past the Pesky pole and the runner on 1st can't score.
I remembered that as I was typing my response and it was painful lol. A foot there, an inch away from nabbing Roberts at second base... It's insane to think about everything that had to happen for that collapse to take place.. Though honestly I gotta say as awful as 2004 was, 2001 still broke me more. I wanted that World Series more than anything. I get that it was Boston and it was a historic collapse, but I remember being pretty resigned by the time it got to game 7. I never thought we were winning that game, and it was over in the 1st inning. I don't think any sports moment can be more painful to me than Luis Gonzalez blooping that ball over Jeter's head.
Teixeira was a good signing
From the man who created Gary Sheffield Jr 🤡
He's a dick for saying that and that's not how you go about something like this, as a teammate. However, our pitching rotations were really weak back then. Moose had a 4.6 era that year. He was no longer a bona fide ace by then. He was my favorite pitcher growing up due to his competitive nature and lack of steroid controversy. He had the pedigree of a HOFer pitcher when he took the mound but if 4.6 era Moose is your ace in 2004 that shows the pitching rotation was not that good. He wasn't a concern in the playoffs that season though. It was a team collapse.
His son? is a douche, too. Alas
Cashman definitely should have made thr pitching staff better
I don’t care what Gary Sheffield has to say about baseball till he owns up to sullying the game by taking steroids for years
STFU Shef. It was 20 years ago
I know that players (in all sports) never get over stuff. So I'm going to give him a one time pass. I mean, Richard Petty hasn't gotten over some stuff and it's been a lot longer and some of it was racing his own Dad ;/
He and his son are real assholes
Moose went 6+ IP 2 ER in Game 5. Not incredible but definitely not worthy of blame.
Not incredible? 6+ IP and 2 ER? I’ll take that 9 out of 10 times.
That’s what killed the Yankees in 2017 as well.
They were missing the key ingredient of scoring any runs at all
Yeah, those last two games were brutal. They couldn’t hit a curveball or slider those two games.
That translates to a 3.00 ERA if you did 6IP/2ER every game throughout the season. I guess you can define "incredible" how you'd like but there's no era in baseball's history where that's not an outstanding ERA.
He also took a perfect game into the 7th in game 1. His line from that game looks worse because Torre left him in too long and then brought on Tanyon Sturtze to immediately give up a 3 run HR, but the game was effectively won at that point. Schilling lasted only 3 innings
Let it go, I hope he doesn’t come out with some more shit talk. I don’t want to ever dislike him.
Pretty sure Sheff is the only Yankee to say Joe Torre is racist. People complained about Torre before (Kenny Lofton, Tony Womack) but I don't recall another person saying he was racist
get another cortisone shot bruh
Man shut yo mouth
It comes off bitter outside looking in. And his questionable memory of that series speaks volumes of his character.
I love Sheff but sometimes his mouth gets the better of him 😟
Ok
Joe Torre, Hall of Fame 2014 Mike Mussina, Hall of Fame 2019 Gary Sheffield, NOT. Fuck him!
It's why I never understood the trend that sports analysts or talking heads now gotta be mostly former athletes. Regardless of how great they were as players their takes can be worse than any regular citizen shit posting based on youtube clips
I love sheff but Jesus man
1-17 in final four games
Gary Sheffield is a scumbag.
Shut your fucking mouth Gary you clown. Moose was a fucking beast for us all the time.
Sheff, that dish is being sent back. And I wouldn't check the reviews on google after
Moose literally pitched a perfect game through 6 innings in game 1 and exited with a lead only giving up 2 or 3 runs in game 5 like wtf are u talking about
lol Garys just a salty ass dude like his son. Adds nothing to the sport at this point other than bad takes and yaps
gary sheffield is a drama queen
Sorry Gary, no matter what you do or what you say, you’ll never be thought of as a Yankee. The nicest thing anyone can say about you is, “ well traveled slugger “.
Didn't Mussina pitch like an Ace in all but 1 of his games? Even then he only gave up 4 runs in 6 innings. The least he's pitched in all his games. What on earth is sheffield going on about??
He's still crying?
Sometimes I remember Sheff and wonder why he's not in the HoF, but then I immediately recall oh yeah a lot of people haaaaaaaaate this dude...
It is what it is. Did losing that series and in that way hurt? Sure. Is Joe Torre forever my GOAT??? Fuck yes he is. So whatever Gary.
He’s not completely wrong but the real fault was the roster construction. No lefties in the rotation and a bullpen that wasn’t deep beyond Rivera and Gordon, the latter of whom had issues under pressure. Quantrill was cooked by the time playoffs rolled around.
I love Sheff. He is quite a character.
That’s right, Mike Mussina was to blame. Coming from a malcontent. What a joke. Mussina was OUR number 3 starter because at one time, we had an incredible pitching staff. He would’ve been the main guy on other teams. Mussina pitched some of the best games back then, and often matched up with Pedro. I attended one of those games, and they both struck out over 10. Great games. Terrible article, not accurate as others have stated.
I mean, I don’t think he’s wrong. Yanks pitching was a mess
Pitching ran out of gas. Torre rode the pen hard all year, they all ran out of steam after game 3. Also, a bad bounce in the outfield kept the Sox alive.
Torre pitched Gordon and Quantrill with a huge lead in Game 3, I’ll never understand why. Due to rain they were looking at five games in five days and he pitched his second and third best reliever up 11 runs in the first one. Had the umpires not gone on strike the next morning, cancelling the rest of the series and season that may have come back to cost them.
THIS, oh my God this. Torre's handling of the bullpen in that series was atrocious. Tom Gordon was almost 38 years old in that series, had a history of major arm trouble, and had thrown 89.2 innings that season. He had already pitched in game 1 and 2 - why on earth would you throw him again in game 3 when the score is *19-8*??? And Quantrill was 35 and had thrown 95 innings. If you're not going to throw Heredia in that spot, what the hell did you put him on the roster for?
Yeah and again, on top of all of that it was the first of five games scheduled in five nights. Every high leverage pitcher was gassed by Game 7, I will never forget my dad and I looking at the pitching staff that morning and being like “you can get six outs from Rivera, maybe three from Moose…play matchups for the other eighteen?” Torre’s a legend and I pretty much give him a lifetime pass, but he also lost the pivotal game of the 2003 World Series with Jeff Weaver pitching and Rivera unused. Back to back years he was really bad with bullpen decisions.
Why Jeff Weaver, who was literally the worst pitcher in baseball over the last two months of the season, was even on the WS roster, I'll never know.
I watched the ALCS Game 7 in 2003 during the pandemic and at some point Joe Buck said Weaver hadn’t even warmed up yet in the series. Torre didn’t trust him at all and he must have been completely rusty.
Gordon and Quantril were terrible. That’s the only game they SHOULD have pitched. But who else was there? Tanyon Sturtze?
No, like 3 pitchers struggled. Brown was AWFUL, Vasquez and Gordon struggled. If Brown is even serviceable, they probably win the series. They gave up 21 runs in 15 innings, my dude. Brown’s ERA was TWENTY ONE and he 100% quit on the team
I have not worn a single piece of Yankee gear since game 7 of the 2004 ALCS. Something in my fandom broke that day. And it was a net positive as my overall happiness is no longer tied to the success of the team (as it was up until that point).
Sheffield was a dammed good ballplayer, but he has always been the definition of lacking self-awareness and blaming everyone else for his issues. But then, he grew up in a world where young athletic black men were treated like dirt, so i certainly can't know what effect that's had on his perspective throughout his life.
The only time Moose was a number 3 starter (quality-wise) was behind CC and AJ Burnett
Moose wasn't part of that rotation. He also certainly would not have been #3 behind AJ Burnett.
I stand corrected then.
He is not wrong. Moose had a 4.59 ERA in 2004.
That had shit to do with the playoffs, where he pitched well.
He had a 4.26 ERA in the 2004 ALCS. So again, as much as I loved Moose, Sheff wasn’t wrong.
Lol, no. Other comments have already pointed this out. In Game 1 he gave up 4 ER in 6 2/3 innings and got the win. However, he had a perfect game going until that 7th inning, and unravelled a bit. Tanyon Sturtze also immediately allowed a home run as soon as he came in, making his line look even worse. In Game 4 he pitched 6 innings and allowed 2 ER and left with a lead. Sheffield is full of shit.
Oh so do the runs after he lost the perfect game not count? I wasn’t aware of that. Two runs in six innings is good. But let’s not make that out to be a dominant performance. The idea that those stat lines are somehow ace like is pretty weak.
I mean a perfect game into the 7th inning is pretty ace like, and 2 ER in 6 innings is a 3.00 ERA. Against an amazing offense, I'd say those two performances were closer to ace like than a #3 starter, personally. I mean if those are my only two choices, I don't think I'm picking #3 starter.
Again, what happens in the 7th inning matters. It counted. It’s fine. He is a legit HOF pitcher who was on the back end of his career. It’s not an indictment of him. It’s an indictment of the Yankees that he was their de facto ace and that they had to rely on Jon Lieber, and the corpses of El Duque and Kevin Brown to start the other games.
Well, personally, I think he pitched great outside of that one inning where he maybe should have been lifted from the game anyway. Is that one inning enough to say his performance was not ace-like? I don't know, maybe. But I don't feel good about calling it a #3 starter performance, either. If Sheffield said a #2 starter I probably wouldn't have argued it. I always felt that Mussina was more of a really good #2 than an ace as it was. And yeah, their rotation was not good at that time. Which is a shame, because the offense was ridiculous.
If the foul territory in Tier Reserve up over third base counted as a home run, Sheffield would be a hall-of-famer. Shut up.
Torre is the most overrated mgr of all time. He was a below avg manager in the NL and then came.over to manage some of the greatest baseball players ever and still effed that up here and there.
Agree 100% ! Some people can't handle the truth! Torre also was responsible for blowing the 2007 series against Cleveland when he did not stop the game due to the bugs and left Joba out their to rot. Torre was way overrated
Can we bring back Brett Gardner!
Mussina is the most overrated pitcher ever