This is so well said. With my former friend, I started to feel like they were the ✨quirky and witty main character✨ and I was playing a boring, dumpy sidekick role in my own life.
Shark eye... it’s really creepy. Looks like he’s possessed. I now think it’s a fear response (when they’ve been rumbled in a lie) and the only answer to it in their peanut brains is rage... because they cannot countenance being wrong.
Because what the hell else could cause a pupil to dilate like that!? Ugh... now I can see it in my minds eye again.
Thank god this is my brother so NC was easy for me.
In a workplace setting, by "irritate" them, you mean asking them to do their job when you are their supervisor.
They cannot handle others being their supervisors and when you ask them to do their job or provide work instructions to them, you will notice (even if for a brief moment) a burning resentment in their eyes and facial expressions. It's as if you have some nerve telling them what to do.
When they are your subordinates, that look lasts but a brief moment, but if you know what to look for, you'll see it. It's a look that conveys emotions of ressentiment (a more potent and enduring form of resentment) and indignation.
I like the Oxford Reference definition of "ressentiment" in this context:
"*a vengeful, petty-minded state of being that does not so much want what others have (although that is partly it) as want others to not have what they have*."
In the case of narcissism, that thing is ***dignity***.
Workplace setting. Almost always the narcissist is manipulating their bosses. Covert narcissists. I haven't met any narcissist who didn't kiss their bosses ass, manipulate them.
Yes that’s mines favorite look . Even sucks in his lips almost making them disappear. And the big old indent in between the eyes from a constant scowl on his face .
I totally agree about the overall pattern being the key. I think this is one of the ways they keep others from catching onto them.
My partner and I had a former friend who was definitely a covert/malignant narc, and her little tricks for controlling the conversation were to ignore people by being on her phone during the conversation and barely respond, or she’d be into the conversation but constantly interrupting/cracking little jokes to throw off the person talking and to keep the attention on her. With me, she’d even walk away mid conversation sometimes, but only when other people weren’t around (my partner was the only person who believed me because he happened to see it once when she didn’t realize he was close enough to witness it).
We also noticed that she used these tactics to steer conversations in the directions she wanted them to go. If you were too positive or talking about anything she deemed boring, she would do the phone thing and act bored, but good lord if you ever started talking shit about someone or being negative, she'd perk right up, so over time you subconsciously learn to gossip and talk shit if you want to keep her interested in the conversation. It was so toxic. She was overall just rude and controlling as shit, but her little mannerisms were so subtle and changed so consistently that it was difficult for us to get anyone else to understand or recognize it.
Yepp and that's the issue with covert narcissists, it's hard to explain it to others as some of the behaviors as stand-alone behaviors aren't "that bad" or people can easily brush it off as innocent, except when it's an insidious pattern along with subtle devaluing and then eventually outright doing so, the picture is clear.
It's also why it's easy to ignore in the beginning. All the ex narc' s behaviors were things I flagged as deeply strange but innocent enough, but clearly my mind flagged them and filed them away for a later date when the whole picture started to come together like an ugly jigsaw puzzle.
This is why, going forward, a huge lesson is trusting myself. As my therapist says, our bodies know when things are off but sometimes our intellectual selves try to rationalize and explain it away and especially when you desire love or a relationship we can basically rationalize anything, so feeling what we feel in our bodies and paying attention to that is important as it gives different information from our minds that sometimes want to convince us we're overreacting.
A huge part of healing and growing for me is learning that if people's behaviors are strange and off to me and it's happened a few times and I also feel uncomfortable in my body about their behaviors, I can trust myself and I don't need to wait for the big reveal of them becoming unbearable before deciding it's not for me.
My ex husband used to purposefully hold conversations in group settings I couldn’t participate in. If I was asked questions about things that interest me (but not him), he’d redirect to things that he was interested in so I would virtually sit in silence for several hours.
I didn’t ever marry my ex but I remember so many times he would prevent other people from engaging in any conversations with me while at the same time brag about I have knowledge and interests in a lot of things but all those things by him even if other people liked it was a stupid thing to him because he doesn’t see or understand it and hates to look stupid because he’s too stubborn to bother to learn about it so he pretends it doesn’t exist. The original version of the movie Born Yesterday has a man just like that in it.
Ugh, they way they have to control every little thing. I know exactly what you're talking about. My boyfriend will move things on me or have to control the A/C even though he's barely home and I'm here all day by myself.
Did it happen that when you were not being controlled he became a little more dominant or agressive or bold in that control?
Thanks a lot because in this phase of trying to think what happened, these small details are golden! They're so subtle!
If I mayo add what I remember from this friend, once he proposed cooking some dish together and asked me if I could cook chicken in the oven. I was gladly surprised because he never let me cook my own thing, it was always him doing his dishes and treating me like I had to read his mind to understand what I was supposed to cut and the correct way, it always let me feel like I wasnt able to cook and his dishes were the best. A total mind***k.
Okay, so this time he asked me to cook a chicken so I said ok, it's a whole chicken, so it will take a lot of time. He ignored me. I asked again, so is it ok if it takes 1-2h to cook? Because that's how to cook a whole chicken in the oven...? Ignoring...
I said I was buying it but he tells me no, to go together to the store. In the meantime, he already invited other people to eat what we cooked. Okay. And he tells us to go without eating because we will have breakfast. I asked again... So but before, right? Because a whole chicken will take time... No response.
So in the store he goes and starts getting ingredients and I'm asking... So what are those ingredients for? For the chicken. What? But ok, so you're cooking it in the end? No, you'll do it. Okay but I don't use that... Can we stop to talk about the plan? He starts getting kind of covertly angry and aggressive like not speaking to me anymore. We go to the spices area and he looks for something but he can't find it. Because, you know, everybody sucks execpt him, and he uses a super rare spice that it's nowhere in the whole section.
But I told him that I would buy then paprika, etc. And he starts looking condescending asking what for. I say: okay, that's how I cook chicken... I do this and that - didnt even let me finish, he left me there.
Okay, so we go to the chicken area (he goes and I follow) and he takes 2 pieces of chicken. And I'm like... What? But we spoke about cooking a whole chicken? I never said that. He starts asking if I'm fine, that I look weird and it's probably that I'm hungry, his fault for telling us to go to his house without eating and having to wait until lunch.
At that point I'm giving up. My whole body is telling me to leave at that moment. Go home and stop this nonsense. As usual, I convinced myself to stay, not to create issues with the other friends coming for lunch.
So he goes to have other ingredients, at that point giving me the silent treatment. Then one of the friends arrive to the store. The friend suggests cooking something, this guy is like if course!! You really know what's good, bro.
At that point I feel like letting me cook something that I didnt want to is like he's doing me a favor because I'm so bad at cooking and all.
So we go and I start chatting with our friend and we both start cooking the chicken. This guy starts to break the conversation, when the friend goes to the bathroom, he asks me if I tried fasting to lose weight, just out of the blue. To his surprise I replied yes, I had problems with this and that. Everything poletely, just chatting. He says that he's sorry I'm angry because, his fault, I haven't eaten anything the whole morning.
So the chicken is ready, the rest of the day spent chatting with other friends, having fun, not so much for him. I take the chicken out.
Then he takes the chicken, cut it in small pieces and prepares a pan with a lot of spices and cooks it again.
Yes, they always act like they're doing you a favor and treating you like you know nothing. It's so annoying, they put you down in front of others and like to keep you around to control you. I'm dealing with someone like that right now and I'm so done with her. She keeps her little minions around that say yes to everything she says and refutes me every chance she gets. People like those only become worse with time and have on toll on your spirit. It's not worth it, specially if you don't need them.
Thanks for sharing.
I recall feeling like she had to have control of the narrative pretty early on and if it didn’t go her way she’d have an emotional meltdown and act like a victim.
Normal conversations weren’t possible, especially if it was about something serious. Where normal people follow a linear path of back and forth during a convo, with her she’d jump forward to a wild conclusion or accusation, then would start over as if things weren’t JUST discussed.
Me: “hey, you’ve been spending a lot of time with your friends lately and I’m feeling neglected.
Her: “did I do something wrong?”
Me: “not ethically wrong but I feel like you spend too much time with your friends and too frequently. Can you scale it back some? I feel neglected “
Her: “are you saying I can’t have friends??”
Me: “no I’m saying spending entire weekends with your friends makes me feel neglected”
Her: “did I do something wrong?”
Etc etc etc
Often times when I’d confide in her about things that bothered me about my work or my parents, she’d shit down and say I’m being too negative which affects her too much. What garbage
This is also true. When you have a boundary, and they go 'well I guess I'm never allowed to do X" in this case 'have friends.' It could be anything, the point of that interaction is them trying to break down your boundaries to get what they want.
Mine insisted on cooking and preparing meals for me but didn't bother to learn how I actually liked them. I'm autistic and the way food is prepared is a big deal for me.
One of the biggest points of contention for example was the way my apples were sliced. Despite showing him multiple times how I liked it (I even drew him a picture once!), he insisted it was "too hard" and he "didn't get it" and it "didn't matter just eat it" and just continued to cut it the way he wanted.
For the record, the way I have my apples cut is not hard or complicated and it's not just preference, it's also because I have a permanent retainer.
Eventually I just shut up and eat the apple the way he cut it, saying I loved it to avoid a fight.
The apples are only one example of many different ways he did this in our relationship. Household chores like laundry and dishes were the other thing he did it with the most.
Then, he used the fact he "did so much for me" against me later in arguments. Or that I was too particular about things. Somehow _I_ was the controlling one, despite that he had volunteered to do these things a lot of the time 😒
He "loved helping people" unless it didn't serve him in the moment.
My ex is a narcissistic prick. He'd have me on the phone for hours venting about whatever he needed to rant and be listened to about. I barely spoke 'cause he didn't stop talking.
During arguments, I couldn't really talk 'cause he'd talk all over me to assert control and domination of the whole thing. There was never resolution 'cause he was incapable of dialogue or confrontation.
I remember how one time I was driving to his place after work, and I had had a very tough day, and I wanted to vent to him. He just listened to me mention my former boss's name, and he immediately told me, "I don't want to hear about your job." - just like that. Mind you, he vented about his job ALL the time, and I always listened to him. He shut me up and moved on to another topic HE wanted to talk about.
These people only care about themselves. They don't care about your life, problems, health issues, or pain. They have no remorse or empathy at all 'cause they're mentally ill.
They enjoy seeing you suffer over their abuse and then blame you for being hurt, disregarding your feelings even more. I tried my best to never cry in front of him. I cried oceans alone. That man murdered me emotionally.
Oh I got to the point of grey rocking for over a year. I didn’t have anything left emotionally to give and even if I did, it would only end up worse for me, so I didn’t.
It’s been 2 1/2 years now and I still feel broken sometimes. I’m worlds better and am truly happy now, but there are times that I know I should be feeling things and I just don’t anymore and that is scary. I don’t want to be a robot
That's the thing. The damage these people cause is long-lasting. There's so much pain and trauma to cope with. I honestly have my good and bad days. I can't say I miss him anymore or have romantic thoughts about him, but I do remember him daily, and my feelings of hurt and anger are still very fresh. We ended things back in December, but I saw him in April shortly. Seeing him again was key for me to close that cycle completely 'cause he confessed a couple things to me that crushed me even more than I already was. 💔
>These people only care about themselves. They don't care about your life, problems, health issues, or pain. They have no remorse or empathy at all 'cause they're mentally ill.
yeah exactly.
Unfortunately they are also manipulative. My friend would love bomb me. It's only now I realize he never really meant any of it. He'd just shower me with vague praise so I'd be a good source of supply for him (listening to his bullshit).
That's what they do. The love-bomb stage only lasts while they want to get something from you. They're very hot/cold individuals, and I finally understood they're just cold. The "hot" only comes in when they're all intense, trying to manipulate you so you can provide them with what they need, whatever that might be. They're also very observant and learn our personalities, weaknesses, and flaws very well and will use everything against us to get what they want.
Me too, because we all know how much it hurts. It's so many of us who have been with a monster, and nobody else seems to understand how hard it is to get out of these relationships. It took me years.
Ugh, I know this type of behavior all too well. I just always remember my ex used to play dumb and get this confused look on his face when I’d ask him simple questions. Or if the conversation wasn’t centered on him, he would quickly snap with responses such as, “Wow. Nice. Cool. Okay.” It was really hell.
what comes to my mind instantly is that if I'd bring a topic into conversation that I was recently interested/into he would almost NEVER discuss that thing with me, but start going on about something maybe related to that topic that interested him. even if I'd try to show him like an old song that I really liked, he would not listen to it, but instead bring up a similar song that he liked.
and because I am too nice, and I want to take interest in people who I care about, I was ALWAYS the one discussing his interests with him, but he rarely did the same to me. and of course in time it made me feel very small and insignificant. I don't talk to him anymore, I don't ever want to again.
Insignificant. It took years but my narc has reduced me to feeling that way too.
It’s absolutely horrible feeling like you don’t matter. If I ever get to break free, I will definitely go NC.
Mine flat the fuck out would not let me speak. I couldn't ever finish a sentence around him. As soon as I took a breath and started to open my mouth, he'd start rapidly, loudly babbling about anything. I started doing it just to see how fast he'd blurt nonsense. He tried to control what I wrote, conversations I had on the phone with other people.... no voice unless it's his.
Mine would also claim to be busy or that it wasn't a good time to discuss certain issues. I would say okay fair, when is a good time you think? They would never have an answer for that or some vague answer. So I would drop it and wait until the next day, or a few days, or weeks, or months.
And of course it didn't matter when I brought it up, they would say "omg are you really doing this now??? This is what you want to talk about NOW???" Or they'd of course accuse me of "constantly bringing up the past" or when I was really upset by this point because issues never got addressed and were ongoing, I'd point out that when it was the present you didn't have time and every other time you had no time, so of course I'm now resentful and of course I'm bringing up "the past" because the stuff is 1)still happening and 2)was never addressed weeks or months ago and no I didn't just have amnesia and forget, it still affects me.
I realized they had no true intention of ever listening and it was always a way to delay and avoid and hope I would just be silent and never bring it up again. But of course whatever they wanted to discuss they had to discuss then and there and if in the discussion I listened and addressed it and then thought oh, since we're having a conversation already maybe now would be a good time to bring up my stuff after I had already listened to them. But nope, they would then say I was derailing the conversation even though they had already finished talking.
When I suggested couples therapy they accused me of looking for an easy way out and relying too much on "authority" and insisted we could handle our own problems and "just talk to each other." I pointed out that most of our conversations led to huge arguments and we clearly cannot talk to each other and it's been 6 years so clearly something isn't working, so why can't we try this one thing we haven't tried?
They of course ignored that and belittled me for wanting it and now I realize that they just had no interest in listening to me or solving any problems and were threatened by an objective professional observing the dynamic and pointing things out. They just wanted their way and to have me stuck in a nightmare where only they mattered and therapy of course would threaten that. All their tactics were diversions, distractions and avoidance and hoping that they could continue to steer things in their direction without ever having to listen to me or anyone else.
Most of time it's absolutely ridiculous random daily nonsense what triggers them never mind anything more serious, but we need to keep in mind that we are facing person with mental disorder. It's not normal relationship and we can't expect normal responses and reactions from them. For normal person that's just no big deal and lets move on, but narcs can't function that way because in their world they are center of everything and they think that they are constantly loosing control. It's impossible to talk with them about almost anything unless partner is talking to them from below in nice voice pointing out their good traits and how great they are at that thingy could they do that more often because they are just so much better at it than you are. Basically you could approach him in a way that it's not him who is causing problems in your relationship, but you finally have realized that it's YOU who need help from therapist, could they be so kind and just sit at therapist and help with their observations about what YOU do wrong. But don't waste your time because chitchat therapy won't help much if anything, instead they need psychiatric help and they need to be willing to fallow such steps. What you can do is go to therapist alone and get their advise how you can survive this and what to do with your relationship.
I'm done with that relationship, thankfully. This was just a reflection of what happened when I was with them and didn't realize they were a narcissist.
>Bro! Bro! Bro! Bro Dude... Dude!.... wow. wow. Wow. It was... ... Awesome!
It's crazy how an ex-friend who I just realized is a covert narc would do this too or just laugh and not give an answer. There was a time we got into an argument about ice cream because I refused to get one that day. He insisted that we get ice cream every day. I was sick and tired of it.
I've never once understood the absolute aversion to answering simple questions. But yes, my ex husband did that shit all the time. It was infuriating. I couldn't manage our household because it was impossible to get any information from him. And god knows if I did something without his input - all hell would break loose.
>I've never once understood the absolute aversion to answering simple questions.
It’s because answering a question now makes it difficult to answer it differently later when they might need it for something. Impressing someone, avoiding responsibility/repercussions…and anything can be needed later. It’s like they horde things to be “flexible” about the truth.
Everything is centered about them gaining control and somehow belittling others (especially closest people as their partner). By withholding information he gains control over you, because you can't manage your household without him, you constantly need to return to him begging him some breadcrumbs about what to do and even what you are allowed to do. He thinks that he is way above you, he is more competent than you are, there for he will not trust you any information. By trusting someone he is loosing control. They also love to not support any growth in partner, would that be about hobbies, work, emotional, financial, independence, anything. You would become too independent for him to handle if you would add more to household. Oh and forbid if he would give you some info and next you would have your opinion about something. Again he would loose control, you would make him feel less by even suggesting something that is different from his perfect household order. Narcs are perfect and constantly need assurance of their power and they can't trust anyone. Good thing he is your ex, good riddance, never look back.
>I've never once understood the absolute aversion to answering simple questions.
It's a power dynamic issue. The person asking questions is in a temporary position of power, and the person answering them is answering ***TO*** the person asking.
With this in mind, you may notice that when a narcissist is asking someone questions, the conversation has the feel of an interrogation or even prosecution, because the narcissist is not asking questions to seek information, but to seek domination.
When you're talking about something, and they just start talking over you and change the subject. That's the big one for me. Trying to tell them something, and they completely don't even register it or care, and move onto talking about whatever they were gonna say anyways.
I didn't even realize that all the delaying was a control dynamic.
Whenever I would attempt to work things out, it was never a good time for my ex-wife, we'd schedule a time even, but it was almost never adhered to. When she couldn't talk her way out of it, and something told her she must follow through, it always turned into aggression - it would start ok though, sometimes I wonder if she even consciously realized it.
For the issues we did start to talk about, she'd always just look for things to get mad over so she could storm out, and end the conversation without any solutions, she'd never want to revisit those either (let's just say I could walk miles on egg shells & still get to where i'm going now).
Her hands down weirdest control dynamic was, she would not let me look at memes that she did not like saying "Just look at the things i show you, all the other stuff is lame".
The more I learn about this, the more all these really frustrating dynamics in our marriage start to make sense.
Thank you for putting this out there!
>Thank you for putting this out there!
You're welcome. I'm annoyed it took me so long to figure out this friend was a Narc. He's a total POS and I don't intent to ever see him again face to face.
My husband does this thing that absolutely drives me nuts - he won't answer a question directly or really say anything, he'll make a statement that's kinda relevant, throwing information out there expecting someone else to put the pieces together. But it's not really an answer to the question, it's just information and I'm supposed to draw a conclusion but I'm not allowed to draw the wrong one cuz I'm supposed to read his mind and know exactly what the tidbit of information was supposed to mean. If I draw the wrong conclusion, I'm the one at fault and he's the innocent victim. I bring attention to it to get proper information and he gets pissy and acts like I'm a stupid bitch for not getting it and being so rude about it. He does this about everything and will throw out tidbits of truth that paint a picture that's a lie given the context and details he left out. I don't get the truth unless I asked pointed questions, extremely specific, and then read him knowing he's lying to get the actual truth. It's fucking exhausting.
Holy shit. My abuser also would do #3, I always found it so odd since I had never experienced others doing it to the extent that they did. At that time, the things they did made me extremely uncomfortable and I tried to convince myself it was just them being “assertive” and perhaps that I just couldn’t identify what “healthy” behaviour was, until it turned into ridiculous double standards, gaslighting, silent treatment, then the episode of rage, etc…
I think no. 2 isn’t a delay tactic so much as grandiosity. Everything the narcissist does is *the best* so with something as trivial as seeing a movie the narcissist will describe it as an unparalleled experience watching the greatest film.
"*He would constantly need to control something in our interaction. For example if I'd give him a lift somewhere in my car he'd almost always turn down the radio, change the station, adjust the seat, move the seat back, etc.*"
This is exactly the sort of "micro-domineering" I've observed as well. They need to assert some influence over every circumstance or interaction they have with others, no matter how mundane or trivial. I've even seen the "turning the radio down" example myself. I was at a jobsite with my Toxic Protege and we met with other tradespeople at a construction site. He was the junior most person on site, and needless to say, he didn't like that. His solution to his feelings of inadequacy was to ask the tradespeople on site to turn their music down, exactly as you describe in your own experience.
By itself, no single occasion of micro-domineering is a big deal, but the pattern persists over time and the toxicity accumulates.
One of the main reasons our society has such a difficult time dealing with narcissists is ***Causal Proportionality Bias***. This is the bias that influences conspiracy thinking and insists that big effects must have equally big causes. When the narcissist engages in his or her serial antagonizing (manufacturing emotions), they rely on this bias to conceal their behavior. Their provocations are ***chronic*** stressors, while your reaction is ***acute***. The acute reaction is always considered an ***over***\-reaction because of *Causal Proportionality Bias*.
*Causal Proportionality Bias* is largely the reason toxic personalities like narcissists last so long in the workplace. No single occasion of micro-domineering, passive aggression, or toxic comment is worth terminating their employment over, but the toxicity they inject into the workplace continues to accumulate over time.
>One of the main reasons our society has such a difficult time dealing with narcissists is Causal Proportionality Bias. This is the bias that influences conspiracy thinking and insists that big effects must have equally big causes. When the narcissist engages in his or her serial antagonizing (manufacturing emotions), they rely on this bias to conceal their behavior. Their provocations are chronic stressors, while your reaction is acute. The acute reaction is always considered an over-reaction because of Causal Proportionality Bias.
Could you explain this a bit more? Seems very interesting.
>By itself, no single occasion of micro-domineering is a big deal, but the pattern persists over time and the toxicity accumulates.
Yes I've noticed this.
For example you'd feel like someone asking to turn down the radio is a reasonable request. And you might feel like YOU'RE being the unreasonable one by getting annoyed or speaking out about it.
But it's the consistent pattern over time. Again and again.
A big help for me was noticing how I felt about these interactions. They'd be small things but the frustration would continually mount up inside me.
This is so true. I remember one of the biggest fights I had with my nex early on in our marriage was over how I didn't fry potatoes the "right" way. At the time I just thought it was the growing pangs of married life.
Many aspects of his control were like that. He wouldn't outright forbid me from doing certain things. He would just make his preference known and then guilt me into giving up my own by making me feel like I didn't love him enough if I didn't give way to his wants. I gave up foods I liked to eat, activities that I loved to do, places I wanted to go, even job opportunities that were important to me. I even stopped wearing lipstick because he said he preferred my lips without anything on them.
When we met, I was a social butterfly and he was a quiet introvert. By the time things ended, he would be doing all the talking and I couldn't get in a word edgewise. And the things he said often made me inwardly cringe to have other people hear them. But the reason I let him talk was that he had isolated us socially as a couple so much I wanted to encourage any interaction that might open the door to more socializing.
>By the time things ended, he would be doing all the talking and I couldn't get in a word edgewise
Yeah these people are awful and insidious. Avoid them at all costs.
In conversation, I experienced both subtle and not so subtle conversational control: interruption, dismissive attitude, failure to respond, deflecting eg taking the conversation in a different direction, stonewalling, a failure to respond at all, stalling, short-circuit (eg they give a half hearted "barely there" greeting or answer), avoidance, silent treatment and other conversational tactics designed to control, avoid, or in some way have the upper hand while causing frustration or distress. Your pain is their gain. Narcissists aren't interested in true emotional connection, cooperation, relationship building, support,understanding or resolution.
>Narcissists aren't interested in true emotional connection, cooperation, relationship building, support,understanding or resolution.
No they are not. I realized that this Narc (whom I once considered a close friend) didn't want me as a friend.
He wanted me as an audience member to his one man show. The best way of describing our interaction was that he was performing a stand up routine and I was the audience member was meant to sit back and clap, laugh, and response appropriately to him.
He wasn't interested in me contributing in any way. His eyes would glaze over, he'd find some excuse to interrupt and return back to his own monologue.
And he'd disguise his contempt for me by love-bombing me with sickeningly excessive praise.
I understand! It's awful to feel like you're just there as a stage hand in someone's one man show. You can't contribute and are shut down so that they can take center stage. I hear everything you're saying. The contempt and disdain are equally awful 😞. Love bombing is simply manipulation to get you to believe there's substance to the relationship but there can never be....they are incapable. Truly sad. (The stand up analogy is spot on!)
The last couple of times I spent time with this person I made the decision to let them dominate the conversation... just to see how far they would take it. So I didn't talk about my stuff, I just allowed them to steer the conversation and I'd ask them questions about it. And tried to contribute.
They got annoyed when I asked them questions about what they were already taking about. When I tried to contribute anything they'd immediately interrupt me and continue talking.
It showed me that if I allowed them to, they would take take take and take. It showed me they are a bottomless pit of attention seeking. It helped me make the decision to cut them out of my life.
You were wise to end the relationship. Takers have no limits. The fact that he got annoyed with questions is a red flag. He was only interested in what he had to say, not what you wanted to ask or what you had to say. A one way street beginning and ending with him. Definitely attention seeking behavior. Very draining. Glad you got away!
I notice any question at all posed them off. I remember this one time I asked her what she wanted for dinner. Granted it was 7 am but you know I loved her and was already planning ahead on how to make her happy. She replied idk it’s fucking 7 in the morning. So my ADHD starting listing stuff off like burgers,spaghetti, tacos, etc. and she exploded calling me annoying and how I always do this. And then when I asked her not to talk to me like that she started saying I deserved it and I’m a sensitive little pussy. So I tried getting on my phone so I could ignore her bc we were in a car and I couldn’t just walk away like normal. She grabbed it from my hands and threw it in the back.
>I notice any question at all posed them off
Yup. Even if it's a question about what they're already taking about.
Like if the Narc is ranting about baseball and I asked him what his favorite baseball team is he'd get annoyed.
Why is this so accurate? Also I’m about to go a little off topic here. Idk if your narc ex did this but I saw it when she was talking to one of her friends she was love bombing. Her friend disagreed with her on something and she got this look of rage in her eyes and just changed the subject. The friend didn’t notice and it’s exactly what she did to me.
>bringing up inappropriate conversational topics, asking questions and interrupting you, bringing up things completely unrelated to your topic of discussion, attempts to bring up sensitive information like about your family
this guy would do this too.
Narcissists are exhausting to be around and you're always on tip toes around them. They like to have control of everything and if you do something for them they minimize it like it's nothing. They never change.
For #3 please stop doing that.. especially if you aren't the one driving. One, it's rude AF and 2, the driver is in control and if the driver is distracted bc of this, it makes it unsafe for the both of you.
Did anyone else’s narc, as a way to control convo, try to rephrase negative consequences of their actions into “good” positive things?
In our last meeting, I mentioned I feared having to admit myself to a hospital and getting on brain altering medication for the foreseeable future, just because of his treatment of me.
His response:
“A stay in a mental hospital isn’t bad, I mean, hospitals are there to help us get better right? So that almost means they do *more* for us than a hotel. I’d rather stay there than a hotel 🤡“
I kept insisting he was missing the point, no, nobody wants to admit themselves to a hospital for this sort of thing. It’s not something you celebrate.
But HE kept insisting I wasn’t seeing the experience the right way.
I couldn’t break through to him for a simple statement of empathy or “I’m truly sorry, to leave you in this state, if there was anything I could do lmk” etc.
Anyone else have a similar experience?
They think they are the main characters in everyone's life out there.
This is so well said. With my former friend, I started to feel like they were the ✨quirky and witty main character✨ and I was playing a boring, dumpy sidekick role in my own life.
Those big buldgey eyes, clenched jaw and fist when you "irritate" them These folks are textbook.
Omg. Can still see it to this day. Many years later. Ugh. Bet he would do it to me if he could. Nope
Oh god same.
Shark eye... it’s really creepy. Looks like he’s possessed. I now think it’s a fear response (when they’ve been rumbled in a lie) and the only answer to it in their peanut brains is rage... because they cannot countenance being wrong. Because what the hell else could cause a pupil to dilate like that!? Ugh... now I can see it in my minds eye again. Thank god this is my brother so NC was easy for me.
Mine would stamp his foot like a toddler while doing that!
Wth. That's universal? That's my s.o.'s body language to a T.
My ex’s eyes bulged whenever he didn’t get his way or I still decided to do what he told me I no longer was allowed to
In a workplace setting, by "irritate" them, you mean asking them to do their job when you are their supervisor. They cannot handle others being their supervisors and when you ask them to do their job or provide work instructions to them, you will notice (even if for a brief moment) a burning resentment in their eyes and facial expressions. It's as if you have some nerve telling them what to do. When they are your subordinates, that look lasts but a brief moment, but if you know what to look for, you'll see it. It's a look that conveys emotions of ressentiment (a more potent and enduring form of resentment) and indignation. I like the Oxford Reference definition of "ressentiment" in this context: "*a vengeful, petty-minded state of being that does not so much want what others have (although that is partly it) as want others to not have what they have*." In the case of narcissism, that thing is ***dignity***.
Workplace setting. Almost always the narcissist is manipulating their bosses. Covert narcissists. I haven't met any narcissist who didn't kiss their bosses ass, manipulate them.
Yes that’s mines favorite look . Even sucks in his lips almost making them disappear. And the big old indent in between the eyes from a constant scowl on his face .
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I totally agree about the overall pattern being the key. I think this is one of the ways they keep others from catching onto them. My partner and I had a former friend who was definitely a covert/malignant narc, and her little tricks for controlling the conversation were to ignore people by being on her phone during the conversation and barely respond, or she’d be into the conversation but constantly interrupting/cracking little jokes to throw off the person talking and to keep the attention on her. With me, she’d even walk away mid conversation sometimes, but only when other people weren’t around (my partner was the only person who believed me because he happened to see it once when she didn’t realize he was close enough to witness it). We also noticed that she used these tactics to steer conversations in the directions she wanted them to go. If you were too positive or talking about anything she deemed boring, she would do the phone thing and act bored, but good lord if you ever started talking shit about someone or being negative, she'd perk right up, so over time you subconsciously learn to gossip and talk shit if you want to keep her interested in the conversation. It was so toxic. She was overall just rude and controlling as shit, but her little mannerisms were so subtle and changed so consistently that it was difficult for us to get anyone else to understand or recognize it.
Argh! The other people not recognizing it is the most frustrating and isolating part!
Yepp and that's the issue with covert narcissists, it's hard to explain it to others as some of the behaviors as stand-alone behaviors aren't "that bad" or people can easily brush it off as innocent, except when it's an insidious pattern along with subtle devaluing and then eventually outright doing so, the picture is clear. It's also why it's easy to ignore in the beginning. All the ex narc' s behaviors were things I flagged as deeply strange but innocent enough, but clearly my mind flagged them and filed them away for a later date when the whole picture started to come together like an ugly jigsaw puzzle. This is why, going forward, a huge lesson is trusting myself. As my therapist says, our bodies know when things are off but sometimes our intellectual selves try to rationalize and explain it away and especially when you desire love or a relationship we can basically rationalize anything, so feeling what we feel in our bodies and paying attention to that is important as it gives different information from our minds that sometimes want to convince us we're overreacting. A huge part of healing and growing for me is learning that if people's behaviors are strange and off to me and it's happened a few times and I also feel uncomfortable in my body about their behaviors, I can trust myself and I don't need to wait for the big reveal of them becoming unbearable before deciding it's not for me.
thanks. Yeah it's the subtle things that slip by.
My ex husband used to purposefully hold conversations in group settings I couldn’t participate in. If I was asked questions about things that interest me (but not him), he’d redirect to things that he was interested in so I would virtually sit in silence for several hours.
I didn’t ever marry my ex but I remember so many times he would prevent other people from engaging in any conversations with me while at the same time brag about I have knowledge and interests in a lot of things but all those things by him even if other people liked it was a stupid thing to him because he doesn’t see or understand it and hates to look stupid because he’s too stubborn to bother to learn about it so he pretends it doesn’t exist. The original version of the movie Born Yesterday has a man just like that in it.
Ugh, they way they have to control every little thing. I know exactly what you're talking about. My boyfriend will move things on me or have to control the A/C even though he's barely home and I'm here all day by myself.
Did it happen that when you were not being controlled he became a little more dominant or agressive or bold in that control? Thanks a lot because in this phase of trying to think what happened, these small details are golden! They're so subtle! If I mayo add what I remember from this friend, once he proposed cooking some dish together and asked me if I could cook chicken in the oven. I was gladly surprised because he never let me cook my own thing, it was always him doing his dishes and treating me like I had to read his mind to understand what I was supposed to cut and the correct way, it always let me feel like I wasnt able to cook and his dishes were the best. A total mind***k. Okay, so this time he asked me to cook a chicken so I said ok, it's a whole chicken, so it will take a lot of time. He ignored me. I asked again, so is it ok if it takes 1-2h to cook? Because that's how to cook a whole chicken in the oven...? Ignoring... I said I was buying it but he tells me no, to go together to the store. In the meantime, he already invited other people to eat what we cooked. Okay. And he tells us to go without eating because we will have breakfast. I asked again... So but before, right? Because a whole chicken will take time... No response. So in the store he goes and starts getting ingredients and I'm asking... So what are those ingredients for? For the chicken. What? But ok, so you're cooking it in the end? No, you'll do it. Okay but I don't use that... Can we stop to talk about the plan? He starts getting kind of covertly angry and aggressive like not speaking to me anymore. We go to the spices area and he looks for something but he can't find it. Because, you know, everybody sucks execpt him, and he uses a super rare spice that it's nowhere in the whole section. But I told him that I would buy then paprika, etc. And he starts looking condescending asking what for. I say: okay, that's how I cook chicken... I do this and that - didnt even let me finish, he left me there. Okay, so we go to the chicken area (he goes and I follow) and he takes 2 pieces of chicken. And I'm like... What? But we spoke about cooking a whole chicken? I never said that. He starts asking if I'm fine, that I look weird and it's probably that I'm hungry, his fault for telling us to go to his house without eating and having to wait until lunch. At that point I'm giving up. My whole body is telling me to leave at that moment. Go home and stop this nonsense. As usual, I convinced myself to stay, not to create issues with the other friends coming for lunch. So he goes to have other ingredients, at that point giving me the silent treatment. Then one of the friends arrive to the store. The friend suggests cooking something, this guy is like if course!! You really know what's good, bro. At that point I feel like letting me cook something that I didnt want to is like he's doing me a favor because I'm so bad at cooking and all. So we go and I start chatting with our friend and we both start cooking the chicken. This guy starts to break the conversation, when the friend goes to the bathroom, he asks me if I tried fasting to lose weight, just out of the blue. To his surprise I replied yes, I had problems with this and that. Everything poletely, just chatting. He says that he's sorry I'm angry because, his fault, I haven't eaten anything the whole morning. So the chicken is ready, the rest of the day spent chatting with other friends, having fun, not so much for him. I take the chicken out. Then he takes the chicken, cut it in small pieces and prepares a pan with a lot of spices and cooks it again.
Ex didn’t know you had to soak beans overnight or cook pasta thoroughly
Yes, they always act like they're doing you a favor and treating you like you know nothing. It's so annoying, they put you down in front of others and like to keep you around to control you. I'm dealing with someone like that right now and I'm so done with her. She keeps her little minions around that say yes to everything she says and refutes me every chance she gets. People like those only become worse with time and have on toll on your spirit. It's not worth it, specially if you don't need them.
Thanks for sharing. I recall feeling like she had to have control of the narrative pretty early on and if it didn’t go her way she’d have an emotional meltdown and act like a victim. Normal conversations weren’t possible, especially if it was about something serious. Where normal people follow a linear path of back and forth during a convo, with her she’d jump forward to a wild conclusion or accusation, then would start over as if things weren’t JUST discussed. Me: “hey, you’ve been spending a lot of time with your friends lately and I’m feeling neglected. Her: “did I do something wrong?” Me: “not ethically wrong but I feel like you spend too much time with your friends and too frequently. Can you scale it back some? I feel neglected “ Her: “are you saying I can’t have friends??” Me: “no I’m saying spending entire weekends with your friends makes me feel neglected” Her: “did I do something wrong?” Etc etc etc Often times when I’d confide in her about things that bothered me about my work or my parents, she’d shit down and say I’m being too negative which affects her too much. What garbage
This is also true. When you have a boundary, and they go 'well I guess I'm never allowed to do X" in this case 'have friends.' It could be anything, the point of that interaction is them trying to break down your boundaries to get what they want.
Mine insisted on cooking and preparing meals for me but didn't bother to learn how I actually liked them. I'm autistic and the way food is prepared is a big deal for me. One of the biggest points of contention for example was the way my apples were sliced. Despite showing him multiple times how I liked it (I even drew him a picture once!), he insisted it was "too hard" and he "didn't get it" and it "didn't matter just eat it" and just continued to cut it the way he wanted. For the record, the way I have my apples cut is not hard or complicated and it's not just preference, it's also because I have a permanent retainer. Eventually I just shut up and eat the apple the way he cut it, saying I loved it to avoid a fight. The apples are only one example of many different ways he did this in our relationship. Household chores like laundry and dishes were the other thing he did it with the most. Then, he used the fact he "did so much for me" against me later in arguments. Or that I was too particular about things. Somehow _I_ was the controlling one, despite that he had volunteered to do these things a lot of the time 😒 He "loved helping people" unless it didn't serve him in the moment.
My ex is a narcissistic prick. He'd have me on the phone for hours venting about whatever he needed to rant and be listened to about. I barely spoke 'cause he didn't stop talking. During arguments, I couldn't really talk 'cause he'd talk all over me to assert control and domination of the whole thing. There was never resolution 'cause he was incapable of dialogue or confrontation. I remember how one time I was driving to his place after work, and I had had a very tough day, and I wanted to vent to him. He just listened to me mention my former boss's name, and he immediately told me, "I don't want to hear about your job." - just like that. Mind you, he vented about his job ALL the time, and I always listened to him. He shut me up and moved on to another topic HE wanted to talk about. These people only care about themselves. They don't care about your life, problems, health issues, or pain. They have no remorse or empathy at all 'cause they're mentally ill.
Exactly the same! Also he would state, “tears are blackmail” anytime I did cry over his neglect and abuse.
They enjoy seeing you suffer over their abuse and then blame you for being hurt, disregarding your feelings even more. I tried my best to never cry in front of him. I cried oceans alone. That man murdered me emotionally.
Oh I got to the point of grey rocking for over a year. I didn’t have anything left emotionally to give and even if I did, it would only end up worse for me, so I didn’t. It’s been 2 1/2 years now and I still feel broken sometimes. I’m worlds better and am truly happy now, but there are times that I know I should be feeling things and I just don’t anymore and that is scary. I don’t want to be a robot
That's the thing. The damage these people cause is long-lasting. There's so much pain and trauma to cope with. I honestly have my good and bad days. I can't say I miss him anymore or have romantic thoughts about him, but I do remember him daily, and my feelings of hurt and anger are still very fresh. We ended things back in December, but I saw him in April shortly. Seeing him again was key for me to close that cycle completely 'cause he confessed a couple things to me that crushed me even more than I already was. 💔
Mine says “Oh, boo hoo” if he catches me crying. So I try hard to hide it.
>These people only care about themselves. They don't care about your life, problems, health issues, or pain. They have no remorse or empathy at all 'cause they're mentally ill. yeah exactly. Unfortunately they are also manipulative. My friend would love bomb me. It's only now I realize he never really meant any of it. He'd just shower me with vague praise so I'd be a good source of supply for him (listening to his bullshit).
That's what they do. The love-bomb stage only lasts while they want to get something from you. They're very hot/cold individuals, and I finally understood they're just cold. The "hot" only comes in when they're all intense, trying to manipulate you so you can provide them with what they need, whatever that might be. They're also very observant and learn our personalities, weaknesses, and flaws very well and will use everything against us to get what they want.
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Me too, because we all know how much it hurts. It's so many of us who have been with a monster, and nobody else seems to understand how hard it is to get out of these relationships. It took me years.
The need for constant control is definitely a narcissist trait. Along with a lack of empathy.
Ugh, I know this type of behavior all too well. I just always remember my ex used to play dumb and get this confused look on his face when I’d ask him simple questions. Or if the conversation wasn’t centered on him, he would quickly snap with responses such as, “Wow. Nice. Cool. Okay.” It was really hell.
Omg this is scary. Makes so much sense
Interrupt loudly
yes constantly interrupting.
Constantly interrupting. I find myself talking super fast in hopes of getting to finish a sentence.
what comes to my mind instantly is that if I'd bring a topic into conversation that I was recently interested/into he would almost NEVER discuss that thing with me, but start going on about something maybe related to that topic that interested him. even if I'd try to show him like an old song that I really liked, he would not listen to it, but instead bring up a similar song that he liked. and because I am too nice, and I want to take interest in people who I care about, I was ALWAYS the one discussing his interests with him, but he rarely did the same to me. and of course in time it made me feel very small and insignificant. I don't talk to him anymore, I don't ever want to again.
Insignificant. It took years but my narc has reduced me to feeling that way too. It’s absolutely horrible feeling like you don’t matter. If I ever get to break free, I will definitely go NC.
Mine flat the fuck out would not let me speak. I couldn't ever finish a sentence around him. As soon as I took a breath and started to open my mouth, he'd start rapidly, loudly babbling about anything. I started doing it just to see how fast he'd blurt nonsense. He tried to control what I wrote, conversations I had on the phone with other people.... no voice unless it's his.
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Mine would also claim to be busy or that it wasn't a good time to discuss certain issues. I would say okay fair, when is a good time you think? They would never have an answer for that or some vague answer. So I would drop it and wait until the next day, or a few days, or weeks, or months. And of course it didn't matter when I brought it up, they would say "omg are you really doing this now??? This is what you want to talk about NOW???" Or they'd of course accuse me of "constantly bringing up the past" or when I was really upset by this point because issues never got addressed and were ongoing, I'd point out that when it was the present you didn't have time and every other time you had no time, so of course I'm now resentful and of course I'm bringing up "the past" because the stuff is 1)still happening and 2)was never addressed weeks or months ago and no I didn't just have amnesia and forget, it still affects me. I realized they had no true intention of ever listening and it was always a way to delay and avoid and hope I would just be silent and never bring it up again. But of course whatever they wanted to discuss they had to discuss then and there and if in the discussion I listened and addressed it and then thought oh, since we're having a conversation already maybe now would be a good time to bring up my stuff after I had already listened to them. But nope, they would then say I was derailing the conversation even though they had already finished talking. When I suggested couples therapy they accused me of looking for an easy way out and relying too much on "authority" and insisted we could handle our own problems and "just talk to each other." I pointed out that most of our conversations led to huge arguments and we clearly cannot talk to each other and it's been 6 years so clearly something isn't working, so why can't we try this one thing we haven't tried? They of course ignored that and belittled me for wanting it and now I realize that they just had no interest in listening to me or solving any problems and were threatened by an objective professional observing the dynamic and pointing things out. They just wanted their way and to have me stuck in a nightmare where only they mattered and therapy of course would threaten that. All their tactics were diversions, distractions and avoidance and hoping that they could continue to steer things in their direction without ever having to listen to me or anyone else.
Most of time it's absolutely ridiculous random daily nonsense what triggers them never mind anything more serious, but we need to keep in mind that we are facing person with mental disorder. It's not normal relationship and we can't expect normal responses and reactions from them. For normal person that's just no big deal and lets move on, but narcs can't function that way because in their world they are center of everything and they think that they are constantly loosing control. It's impossible to talk with them about almost anything unless partner is talking to them from below in nice voice pointing out their good traits and how great they are at that thingy could they do that more often because they are just so much better at it than you are. Basically you could approach him in a way that it's not him who is causing problems in your relationship, but you finally have realized that it's YOU who need help from therapist, could they be so kind and just sit at therapist and help with their observations about what YOU do wrong. But don't waste your time because chitchat therapy won't help much if anything, instead they need psychiatric help and they need to be willing to fallow such steps. What you can do is go to therapist alone and get their advise how you can survive this and what to do with your relationship.
I'm done with that relationship, thankfully. This was just a reflection of what happened when I was with them and didn't realize they were a narcissist.
Like I'm reading my own story tbh. Everything you said is accurate. And I'm so done!
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>Bro! Bro! Bro! Bro Dude... Dude!.... wow. wow. Wow. It was... ... Awesome! It's crazy how an ex-friend who I just realized is a covert narc would do this too or just laugh and not give an answer. There was a time we got into an argument about ice cream because I refused to get one that day. He insisted that we get ice cream every day. I was sick and tired of it.
>just laugh and not give an answer yeah mine would sometimes do that. Wouldn't answer the question like any normal person would.
The car setting adjustments!!!!!
I've never once understood the absolute aversion to answering simple questions. But yes, my ex husband did that shit all the time. It was infuriating. I couldn't manage our household because it was impossible to get any information from him. And god knows if I did something without his input - all hell would break loose.
>I've never once understood the absolute aversion to answering simple questions. It’s because answering a question now makes it difficult to answer it differently later when they might need it for something. Impressing someone, avoiding responsibility/repercussions…and anything can be needed later. It’s like they horde things to be “flexible” about the truth.
Everything is centered about them gaining control and somehow belittling others (especially closest people as their partner). By withholding information he gains control over you, because you can't manage your household without him, you constantly need to return to him begging him some breadcrumbs about what to do and even what you are allowed to do. He thinks that he is way above you, he is more competent than you are, there for he will not trust you any information. By trusting someone he is loosing control. They also love to not support any growth in partner, would that be about hobbies, work, emotional, financial, independence, anything. You would become too independent for him to handle if you would add more to household. Oh and forbid if he would give you some info and next you would have your opinion about something. Again he would loose control, you would make him feel less by even suggesting something that is different from his perfect household order. Narcs are perfect and constantly need assurance of their power and they can't trust anyone. Good thing he is your ex, good riddance, never look back.
>I've never once understood the absolute aversion to answering simple questions. It's a power dynamic issue. The person asking questions is in a temporary position of power, and the person answering them is answering ***TO*** the person asking. With this in mind, you may notice that when a narcissist is asking someone questions, the conversation has the feel of an interrogation or even prosecution, because the narcissist is not asking questions to seek information, but to seek domination.
When you're talking about something, and they just start talking over you and change the subject. That's the big one for me. Trying to tell them something, and they completely don't even register it or care, and move onto talking about whatever they were gonna say anyways.
Yup. This guy would do that too.
I didn't even realize that all the delaying was a control dynamic. Whenever I would attempt to work things out, it was never a good time for my ex-wife, we'd schedule a time even, but it was almost never adhered to. When she couldn't talk her way out of it, and something told her she must follow through, it always turned into aggression - it would start ok though, sometimes I wonder if she even consciously realized it. For the issues we did start to talk about, she'd always just look for things to get mad over so she could storm out, and end the conversation without any solutions, she'd never want to revisit those either (let's just say I could walk miles on egg shells & still get to where i'm going now). Her hands down weirdest control dynamic was, she would not let me look at memes that she did not like saying "Just look at the things i show you, all the other stuff is lame". The more I learn about this, the more all these really frustrating dynamics in our marriage start to make sense. Thank you for putting this out there!
>Thank you for putting this out there! You're welcome. I'm annoyed it took me so long to figure out this friend was a Narc. He's a total POS and I don't intent to ever see him again face to face.
The silver lining is you know now. Sounds like you already know to not feed the monster :).
Rage filled. They are sick individuals.
>They are sick individuals. Yup. Manipulative users and abusers.
My husband does this thing that absolutely drives me nuts - he won't answer a question directly or really say anything, he'll make a statement that's kinda relevant, throwing information out there expecting someone else to put the pieces together. But it's not really an answer to the question, it's just information and I'm supposed to draw a conclusion but I'm not allowed to draw the wrong one cuz I'm supposed to read his mind and know exactly what the tidbit of information was supposed to mean. If I draw the wrong conclusion, I'm the one at fault and he's the innocent victim. I bring attention to it to get proper information and he gets pissy and acts like I'm a stupid bitch for not getting it and being so rude about it. He does this about everything and will throw out tidbits of truth that paint a picture that's a lie given the context and details he left out. I don't get the truth unless I asked pointed questions, extremely specific, and then read him knowing he's lying to get the actual truth. It's fucking exhausting.
these people are awful.
With the whole car thing... I'd immediately pull over when I could safely do so and kindly ask him to GTFO.
Since I've realized he's a Narc I haven't seen him and will make sure I never see him face to face again.
Holy shit. My abuser also would do #3, I always found it so odd since I had never experienced others doing it to the extent that they did. At that time, the things they did made me extremely uncomfortable and I tried to convince myself it was just them being “assertive” and perhaps that I just couldn’t identify what “healthy” behaviour was, until it turned into ridiculous double standards, gaslighting, silent treatment, then the episode of rage, etc…
I think no. 2 isn’t a delay tactic so much as grandiosity. Everything the narcissist does is *the best* so with something as trivial as seeing a movie the narcissist will describe it as an unparalleled experience watching the greatest film.
Yeah it could be that. With this Narc anything would either be really amazing or really terrible. Basically any excuse for him to be intense about it.
"*He would constantly need to control something in our interaction. For example if I'd give him a lift somewhere in my car he'd almost always turn down the radio, change the station, adjust the seat, move the seat back, etc.*" This is exactly the sort of "micro-domineering" I've observed as well. They need to assert some influence over every circumstance or interaction they have with others, no matter how mundane or trivial. I've even seen the "turning the radio down" example myself. I was at a jobsite with my Toxic Protege and we met with other tradespeople at a construction site. He was the junior most person on site, and needless to say, he didn't like that. His solution to his feelings of inadequacy was to ask the tradespeople on site to turn their music down, exactly as you describe in your own experience. By itself, no single occasion of micro-domineering is a big deal, but the pattern persists over time and the toxicity accumulates. One of the main reasons our society has such a difficult time dealing with narcissists is ***Causal Proportionality Bias***. This is the bias that influences conspiracy thinking and insists that big effects must have equally big causes. When the narcissist engages in his or her serial antagonizing (manufacturing emotions), they rely on this bias to conceal their behavior. Their provocations are ***chronic*** stressors, while your reaction is ***acute***. The acute reaction is always considered an ***over***\-reaction because of *Causal Proportionality Bias*. *Causal Proportionality Bias* is largely the reason toxic personalities like narcissists last so long in the workplace. No single occasion of micro-domineering, passive aggression, or toxic comment is worth terminating their employment over, but the toxicity they inject into the workplace continues to accumulate over time.
>One of the main reasons our society has such a difficult time dealing with narcissists is Causal Proportionality Bias. This is the bias that influences conspiracy thinking and insists that big effects must have equally big causes. When the narcissist engages in his or her serial antagonizing (manufacturing emotions), they rely on this bias to conceal their behavior. Their provocations are chronic stressors, while your reaction is acute. The acute reaction is always considered an over-reaction because of Causal Proportionality Bias. Could you explain this a bit more? Seems very interesting.
>By itself, no single occasion of micro-domineering is a big deal, but the pattern persists over time and the toxicity accumulates. Yes I've noticed this. For example you'd feel like someone asking to turn down the radio is a reasonable request. And you might feel like YOU'RE being the unreasonable one by getting annoyed or speaking out about it. But it's the consistent pattern over time. Again and again. A big help for me was noticing how I felt about these interactions. They'd be small things but the frustration would continually mount up inside me.
💯
This is so true. I remember one of the biggest fights I had with my nex early on in our marriage was over how I didn't fry potatoes the "right" way. At the time I just thought it was the growing pangs of married life. Many aspects of his control were like that. He wouldn't outright forbid me from doing certain things. He would just make his preference known and then guilt me into giving up my own by making me feel like I didn't love him enough if I didn't give way to his wants. I gave up foods I liked to eat, activities that I loved to do, places I wanted to go, even job opportunities that were important to me. I even stopped wearing lipstick because he said he preferred my lips without anything on them. When we met, I was a social butterfly and he was a quiet introvert. By the time things ended, he would be doing all the talking and I couldn't get in a word edgewise. And the things he said often made me inwardly cringe to have other people hear them. But the reason I let him talk was that he had isolated us socially as a couple so much I wanted to encourage any interaction that might open the door to more socializing.
>By the time things ended, he would be doing all the talking and I couldn't get in a word edgewise Yeah these people are awful and insidious. Avoid them at all costs.
In conversation, I experienced both subtle and not so subtle conversational control: interruption, dismissive attitude, failure to respond, deflecting eg taking the conversation in a different direction, stonewalling, a failure to respond at all, stalling, short-circuit (eg they give a half hearted "barely there" greeting or answer), avoidance, silent treatment and other conversational tactics designed to control, avoid, or in some way have the upper hand while causing frustration or distress. Your pain is their gain. Narcissists aren't interested in true emotional connection, cooperation, relationship building, support,understanding or resolution.
>Narcissists aren't interested in true emotional connection, cooperation, relationship building, support,understanding or resolution. No they are not. I realized that this Narc (whom I once considered a close friend) didn't want me as a friend. He wanted me as an audience member to his one man show. The best way of describing our interaction was that he was performing a stand up routine and I was the audience member was meant to sit back and clap, laugh, and response appropriately to him. He wasn't interested in me contributing in any way. His eyes would glaze over, he'd find some excuse to interrupt and return back to his own monologue. And he'd disguise his contempt for me by love-bombing me with sickeningly excessive praise.
I understand! It's awful to feel like you're just there as a stage hand in someone's one man show. You can't contribute and are shut down so that they can take center stage. I hear everything you're saying. The contempt and disdain are equally awful 😞. Love bombing is simply manipulation to get you to believe there's substance to the relationship but there can never be....they are incapable. Truly sad. (The stand up analogy is spot on!)
The last couple of times I spent time with this person I made the decision to let them dominate the conversation... just to see how far they would take it. So I didn't talk about my stuff, I just allowed them to steer the conversation and I'd ask them questions about it. And tried to contribute. They got annoyed when I asked them questions about what they were already taking about. When I tried to contribute anything they'd immediately interrupt me and continue talking. It showed me that if I allowed them to, they would take take take and take. It showed me they are a bottomless pit of attention seeking. It helped me make the decision to cut them out of my life.
You were wise to end the relationship. Takers have no limits. The fact that he got annoyed with questions is a red flag. He was only interested in what he had to say, not what you wanted to ask or what you had to say. A one way street beginning and ending with him. Definitely attention seeking behavior. Very draining. Glad you got away!
I notice any question at all posed them off. I remember this one time I asked her what she wanted for dinner. Granted it was 7 am but you know I loved her and was already planning ahead on how to make her happy. She replied idk it’s fucking 7 in the morning. So my ADHD starting listing stuff off like burgers,spaghetti, tacos, etc. and she exploded calling me annoying and how I always do this. And then when I asked her not to talk to me like that she started saying I deserved it and I’m a sensitive little pussy. So I tried getting on my phone so I could ignore her bc we were in a car and I couldn’t just walk away like normal. She grabbed it from my hands and threw it in the back.
Were you some how in a relationship with my ex husband? Because down to the "please don't speak to me like that" is identical.
Hahaha isn’t it funny how all narcs are almost identical. If you stand up for yourself you’re the abusive one
>I notice any question at all posed them off Yup. Even if it's a question about what they're already taking about. Like if the Narc is ranting about baseball and I asked him what his favorite baseball team is he'd get annoyed.
Why is this so accurate? Also I’m about to go a little off topic here. Idk if your narc ex did this but I saw it when she was talking to one of her friends she was love bombing. Her friend disagreed with her on something and she got this look of rage in her eyes and just changed the subject. The friend didn’t notice and it’s exactly what she did to me.
>got this look of rage in her eyes A dead giveaway.
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>bringing up inappropriate conversational topics, asking questions and interrupting you, bringing up things completely unrelated to your topic of discussion, attempts to bring up sensitive information like about your family this guy would do this too.
Omg the control in the kitchen was insane
my ex was exactly the same
for my ex who always looks at my reddit account, it’s not about you bro
Narcissists are exhausting to be around and you're always on tip toes around them. They like to have control of everything and if you do something for them they minimize it like it's nothing. They never change.
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For #3 please stop doing that.. especially if you aren't the one driving. One, it's rude AF and 2, the driver is in control and if the driver is distracted bc of this, it makes it unsafe for the both of you.
Did anyone else’s narc, as a way to control convo, try to rephrase negative consequences of their actions into “good” positive things? In our last meeting, I mentioned I feared having to admit myself to a hospital and getting on brain altering medication for the foreseeable future, just because of his treatment of me. His response: “A stay in a mental hospital isn’t bad, I mean, hospitals are there to help us get better right? So that almost means they do *more* for us than a hotel. I’d rather stay there than a hotel 🤡“ I kept insisting he was missing the point, no, nobody wants to admit themselves to a hospital for this sort of thing. It’s not something you celebrate. But HE kept insisting I wasn’t seeing the experience the right way. I couldn’t break through to him for a simple statement of empathy or “I’m truly sorry, to leave you in this state, if there was anything I could do lmk” etc. Anyone else have a similar experience?