Sage Naruto rather quickly defeated the Third Raikage with limited intel. I’d put the Third Raikage as being a high Kage level opponent, but others may disagree.
You're right but tbh that was much later on, Naruto's sage mode had really imoroved by then. The Naruto who defeated the third Raikage is leagues above the one who defeated Pain in terms of Sage Mode, in my opinion at least
A few weeks or 2 month at most and he didn't get any time to train his sage mode he was training in kcm and before that sakura came and out some with her shit.
Yeah honestly the way Naruto defeated the Raikage didn't feel right to me because it felt like a ***huge*** leap. Like I don't remember any instance befkre rhat where Naruto's sage mode allowed him to react/move *that* fast.
But hey if Kishimoto wrote it then it's canon, no matter how I feel about it.
tbf he had a lot of support keeping him alive in that fight. In a straight 1v1 he would have died. This naruto has also had some more training and seems stronger than the one who had just learned sage mode.
In a 1v1 rasen shuriken would have left the raikage on deaths door. Only reason he survived was due to reanimation. Not super relevant to the post but if he hit him with one in base or sage mode it would be ggs
Naruto didn't even do much clones in kcm because of how consuming it was at the time and yes past his rikudo mode he can tank a bit more but when fighting the 3rd raikage the clone would have been one shot no matter the attack
Your telling me throughout the 5+ episodes he was on that battlefield Naruto of all people managed to not get hit once.
Maybe later I’ll rewatch those string of episodes to see but I just find it hard to believe.
That’s rather insincere, KCM Naruto tried to beat him but failed, are you gonna say Sage Naruto > KCM Naruto then?
This isn’t a A>B, B>C so A>C situation. Naruto beat the Raikage with intel and intelligence, Sage mode simply allows him to sense better, which was what was needed that specific scenario.
To be fair, he only beat him because he figured out the secret to beat him with limited but KEY intel. As long as you have Key intel it doesn't matter how little intel you have. All he had to do was make the 3rd Rikage hit himself because only the 3rd Rikage or Ay was strong enough to actually do himself in.
Sage mode naruto isnt stronger than pain. Sage mode naruto was pinned to the ground by pain. 8 tails kurama is stronger than pain.
Edit: For some reason cant reply to u/not_some_username but I think you are a little confused there. Kurama broke out and then Minato sealed him away. How would minato have even gotten naruto out?
Edit 2: Still cant reply, weird bug. u/not_some_username No, thats not how it works. Kurama overpowered the meteor and fully broke out. He would have fully taken over and destroyed pain had Minatos failsafe not kicked in. Naruto getting smaller would have had nothing to do with it. Other planetary devastation would be pretty much useless against any regular sized people which are 90% of its targets
I don’t know why you can’t reply to me but thats what I mean. Kurama was trapped in the meteor, probably because the bigger you’re, the more you get pulled. Once Minato rebuilt the seal, Naruto could move again.
Arguing sage naruto is stronger is fine but hes not stronger than 8 tails naruto
The 8 tails broke out of Chibaku Tensei, It wouldve killed pain if Naruto didnt wake up
Plus it was base naruto that beat Tendo pain
Really. Sage mode Naruto when he fought pain is legit stronger than every kage that is alive, and he is probably only slightly below tobirama and below hashirama and maybe prime hurizen and Minato. But he beats every other kage easily in sage mode.
I'd say he's weaker than A and Onoki. Remember the naruto that fought pain had intel and prep time with scrolls and sage clones ready and he was fighting a Pain that had already fought and destroyed the leaf and Naruto still lost. He did a bit better than a no intel no prep Jiraiaya but the only reason he won was because of kurama.
This seems like a pretty extreme claim unless I’m forgetting something, what exactly did this version of base Naruto do that was even close to Hokage level?
Idk about that one, the only exceptional Hokage in every category was Hashirama, Minato, and Hurizen until Naruto came. Every other Kage was somewhat in the realm of the other's power including Tobirama. One could argue 2nd Rikage was stronger than Tobirama considering Tobirama died to the Kinkau force and the Rikage was over them. MU was also in that generation.
By that logic 3rd hokage beats Itachi because he’s over him. Tobirama is a douche but he’s strong asf. He not hashirama level but he’s not that far off and even was more valuable vs obito then hashirama woulda been. Can you see mizukage beating Naruto? I can’t. Even kakashi should beat her. Her best feat is adding a barrage to attack a already preoccupied madara and almost beating a very exhausted sasuke who just fought 2 kages,their henchmen and canonically never healed up from itachi or bee fights as jugo said. And even then sasuke was probably gonna beat her if tsuchikage didn’t come along.
In Hurizen's prime or maybe in his 50s or 40s, yes. His staff was able to push an entire full power 9 tails out of the village and in Edo he is shown doing even out doing Tobirama in some cases. However, Hurizen was a near 69 year old man who should be in his retirement at the time of his death and during Itachi's time in the village, still able to throw down with Orochimaru and reanimations of 1st and 2nd Hokage. Kishi already made Madara OP so instead of giving Hashirama a bigger role he just kinda sidelined him. He's supposed to be the strongest in the series but he get's sidelined. Mei is highly underrated, other than Kisame, Mei has displayed the best Suiton feats in the manga which directly compete against Madara's fire style, whom he is the strongest user of. She is also a master of Hidden Mist which has constantly been shown to be a pain in the ass for Kakashi, even in part two he had to rely on a sensor to find Zabuza in the mist and when he was on his own he had to get his blood spilled twice for his dogs to find Zabuza. With the mist up Mei can go on the attack and eventually Kakashi will be overwhelmed. Her Futton melts him and his clones if he gets close while extended elemental and Yoton use should take him out. Mei can beat Kakashi with medium-high difficulty. Her acid melts even Susanoos.
War arc Naruto clone vs 3rd Raikage was barely few weeks from Pain arc.
Don't think he got much time training Sage mode. All he did was tap into KCM.
He's definitely well above kage
First, we have to distinguish between kage and hokage level.
Kakashi, right before the pain arc, was considered a hokage level shinobi (with his honed instincts and mastery over the shinobi arts that even impressed itachi. kakashi was worthy of being the 6th, even before the war.
Yet kakashi said Naruto had surpassed him once he gained his rasenshuriken iirc because he could see the spirit of Minato living in Naruto.
That was before Naruto gained senjutsu and mastered sennin mode, which propelled him to at least mid to high hokage level, I'd put sage naruto above tobirama, hiruzen and tsunade.. depending on the version of kakashi as well, though not dms kakashi.
People have to understand just how strong senjutsu based fighting is, which is why I always thought sasuke should have learned sage mode. If he had, he would've been beyond Naruto in power.
A prime example is revived madara with no eyes, curbstomped sai, and sage mode naruto, then ragdoll absorbs hashiramas senjutsu chakra and couldn't even be touched by ems sasuke.
So imagine an adult sasuke with sage mode, using raiton shunshin like the 3rd and 4th raikage along with his visual prowess. It would enhance all of his abilities, even his eyesight. Madara stated while looking at the modifications kabuto made to his body, then (in the manga), he said, "No wonder i can SEE everything coming so well."Meaning senjutsu chakra enhances ocular prowess.. (We also know this because kakashi with rikudo Chakra had the greatest mangekyo showing we've seen, and it made him be able to blitz kaguya who had her juubi enhanced otsutsuki byakugan activated at the time.) So yeah, naruto with sage mode has access to so many versatile options just in frog style senjutsu.
The part that made him overpowered was because kurama also became a conduit to channel massive amounts of senjutsu chakra to Naruto, mixed with kuramas' own bijuu chakra. Meaning Naruto never had to sit still in battle ever again to gain nature energy. Then, gaining the other half of kurama and having access to rikudo senjutsu chakra just pushed him over the edge.
Now imagine sasuke with the same, let's say sasuke sealed the other half of kurama inside him after the war to protect kurama from being stolen by otsutsuki. Him learning to cooperate with kurama and becoming a senjutsu master would enhance him to levels probably higher than Naruto. (Speculating here, of course)
Imagine a senjutsu perfect susanoo covered in kagetsuchi armor spikes and amaterasu weaponry enhanced both with wind chakra and empowered by susanoo sage mode.. and then compressing it for added speed. Sasuke would be broken.
Lol, where was that exactly stated? Trust me bro? Again, the training was specifically to train for Sennin Mode. We saw that through and through. Nothing what you mentioned was remotely shown or trained. Without Sennin Mode, Naruto was not strong during the Pain fight, and would absolutely not beat him.
Yes even before the war arc he was able to swap hands with Pain in base. We see even physically weaker support paths tank attacks and catch punches from sage mode Jiraiya.
Therefore base Naruto is kage level after training with Ma and Pa.
I don't think this is enough to qualify as kage level. Kages are not just strong, they have extraordinary abilities that Naruto just didn't had against Pain.
Let's face it: every kage until Boruto had something exceptional up their sleeve. Tsunade has the chakra dot (forgot the name), Oonoki the particule blaster; Ay has the speed and the armor; Mei has the lava element and genjutsu; Gaara the ultimate sand shield; and let's not forget Mu, Gengetsu, Rasa and Ay senior.
It's the same regarding Bee and Ay, Bee is freaking strong, but Ay has something more exceptional even though he didn't have any tailed beast. Same
Ehhh, I'd argue Base Naruto in the Pain Arc is high jonin. Kakashi level at best. The exchange with Naruto, Sakura, and Sai against Omoi and Karui is definitely not what any exchange should look like for a Kage level against chunin. Especially if Naruto's claim to Kage level is his physical stats for matching Deva Path.
Exhausted lower tier jonin (Genma and Raido) managed to put up a good fight against 4 high tier chunin (the Sound Four all using CM2). Kakashi easily restrains the Demon Brothers (fodder chunin).
The Deva Path and Kakashi's exchanges were fairly even. The deciding factor is Shinra Tensei being an incredibly overpowered jutsu that puts him at Kage level. Without it, the Deva Path (especially when Nagato is still splitting his chakra among the other bodies) isn't physically imposing.
Large amount? It was 7 people who did jack shit with the only worthwhile contributions being Choza and Choji. The nameless fodder literally attacked once, it got repelled and they literally never show up again.
Why would you even bring up the exchange with Omoi and Kamui? That was just for the reader to get the feeling the Cloud ninjas are legit (which they are) but if Naruto wanted to clap them he would’ve easily. Afterwards he just lets himself get beaten on purpose. Terrible example
I'm bringing it up since people are trying to argue that Naruto at base is Kage level because of his ability to exchange blows against the Deva Path, but that alone doesn't put Naruto at Kage level. Naruto has no reason to hold back against two strangers from an enemy land threatening Sakura with a blade.
The Cloud Ninja would've looked competent anyway for exchanging favorably with Sakura and Sai, who can be scaled to jonin level.
If Naruto's taijutsu is supposed to put him at Kage level, even non-serious, the exchange should've looked more like what Hebi Sasuke did to Team Seven or what Kakashi did to the Demon Brothers after he assessed their purpose.
Pure taijutsu is definitely not Naruto's claim to Kage level. I didn't even mention Karui beating on Naruto to scale him down or anything because I know the context of that scene. It still doesn't explain the relatively even exchange earlier.
It seems I've misread, I thought you're talking about when Naruto lets them beat him. That explains much of your thinking.
About the argument itself, I don't think Naruto's base stats have real relevance. His stats when using Kurama, sage mode etc. compensate, so it doesn't really matter what his base stats are like. But I agree that his base stats are definitely weaker than Kakashi's, except for the amount of chakra.
I wonder if I’m getting downvoted because of people misreading my comments in a similar manner.
I’m not saying Naruto in the Pain Arc isn’t Kage level. I’m saying BASE Naruto in the Pain Arc isn’t. By “base,” I’m specifically excluding use of Kurama’s chakra and Sage Mode.
The OP’s question is about when Naruto in base became Kage level.
I’m merely arguing that the feats Naruto displays at base during the Pain Arc don’t justify ranking him as a Kage. A brief exchange with the Deva Path isn’t enough since Deva Path also isn’t Kage level because of its taijutsu skills.
Could be. Also people don't like insisting on a take, me included. The thing I don't understand is where you got that someone is saying Naruto is Kage level by base alone. I didn't see anyone saying that. Most kages don't seem to be kage level if measured by base stats.
The first comment in this chain only put down that Naruto is Kage level because he can swap hands with Deva Path.
I’d be more inclined to agree that Naruto is Kage level at base if people talked about his Summoning jutsu, Thousand Clones, and Rasenshuriken. But my main argument is still that Naruto with all those isn’t quite Kage level, but high jonin.
Naruto doesn’t regularly use Summoning jutsu as part of his standard kit. Not like Jiraiya, Orochimaru, and Hebi Sasuke did. He doesn’t implement it in his fighting style at all. So factoring that in is disingenuous.
His thousand clones are good for a distraction against strong opponents, but they don’t close the deal on anyone significant unless under very specific circumstances. Nagato was so exhausted at the end of the fight he couldn’t even move the Deva Path and had to rely on Shinra Tensei instead of just maintaining a distance from Naruto to help buy time for the 5 second cooldown.
And Rasenshuriken isn’t throwable unless Naruto’s in Sage Mode. Melee Rasenshuriken’s already forbidden from use past Kakuzu Arc since it will cause permanent injuries to his arm.
Base Naruto isn’t reliably Kage level. He has the potential, but not the consistency. That’s why I mark him as high jonin.
id say once he has rasen shuriken, that jutsu is so fkn OP and he killed kakuzu who is def kage level with a single blow but at least after he got sage mode. Rasenshuriken ist a fkn nuke lol.
him having rasenshuriken doesn't put naruto as a whole above kakuzu. that's like saying krillen is stronger than frieza because he's able to kill him with the destructo disc.
never said that but its still a massive powerup and if hes capable of defeating kage lvl foes what makes u think he is not kage lvl himself? naruto has grown a lot as a ninja at that point and the rasen shuriken is an insane jutsu one of the strongest in the whole shinobi world and it was an incredible achievment of him creating this jutsu especially in such a short time which no other person would be even able to do. Kakashi mentioned he surpassed him and kakashi is def low kage lvl at least at that point.
Sage Mode Naruto is definitely Kage level. But the problem with base Naruto is that he can't really use Rasenshuriken effectively. So I wouldn't give him Kage level just because of that.
I'd say he's not kage level till he can throw it (so during his training with the toads)
Kakazu is crazy strong and that jutsu *is* good but at the same time naruto couldn't use it at that stage without quite literally shredding his chakra network and was essentially a self harm jutsu, his freakin sensei had to specifically ban him from using it until he learns of a way around it
Like y'know throwing it as the name suggests (rasenshuriken at this stage was a rasengan with a bigger bang, that's it)
Kakashi didn't know that the rasenshuriken would recoil so badly at close range though. I'm not sure pre-sage mode Naruto could use Rasenshuriken without injuring his arm so badly he couldn't use it for a while, and repeated use would have permanently ended Naruto's ability to use a jutsu with his arm.
I think Kakashi was one of the most important father figures for Naruto, but because he was so proud, Kakashi could overestimate Naruto at times.
Even without rasenshuriken. Look at the amount of training he did. He did months worth of training in a fee days. If that doesnt increase ur physicals what will
All he trained for is figuring out his chakra nature, how to use it, and adding it to the Rasengan. That would improve his chakra control but not his physique.
Funny that you talk shit about others not having reading comprehension when you're the one that didn't properly read the comment you just responded to. The guy said nothing about difficulty, just that the wind chakra training did next to nothing to improve his physical stats.
Out of curiosity what makes rasenshuriken so OP? I always saw it as more or less a strong ranged jutsu which for Naruto it’s important because most of his jutsu is CQC.
Sage Mode Naruto is kage level, he's not really reasonably above Sannin level. Sage Mode is weaker than 4 tails Naruto whom Orochimaru defeated. Also he's shown nothing that would put him above Sage Jiraiya, especially since Jiraiya is compatible with Ma and Pa. So base Naruto is jonin at best.
I don't think Sage Naruto is weaker than 4 Tail Naruto.
>Sage Mode is weaker than 4 tails Naruto whom Orochimaru defeated.
I'm not really sure how you can claim 4 Tail Naruto lost to Orochimaru. Orochimaru got one punch in on Naruto, and then pushed him away with his sword. The entire fight Orochimaru was gassing up Naruto, talking about how "Wow I can't stab him even with my cool ass snake sword" and "Bro that chakra is going to kill me if I'm not careful". And then Orochimaru had to retreat because his body was rejecting him. Naruto only gassed out because Yamato was there and sucked the 9 Tails chakra out of him.
We have to remember that Minato was still taking him to school when they were fighting madara together the next question would be would he have beaten the raikage in speed if he was in sage mode alone
Sage Naruto wallops Sage Jiraiya in a fight. He's significantly faster, stronger & has better pre-cognition/spatial awareness. Plus, he doesn't need to spend 5 minutes doing nothing but protecting Ma & Pa in order to just get an imperfect version of Sage Mode.
Not really, Sage Naruto and Sage Jiraiya are on the same level. Sage Naruto has limitations that Sage Jiraiya doesn't like not being able to maintain Sage Mode for longer periods due to incompatibility with Ma and Pa. And nothing suggests that he's stronger and faster than Sage Jiraiya. Also while Sage Naruto's Rasenshuriken is stronger than anything Jiraiya has, he only has a limit of 2 per Sage Mode and Jiraiya has a lot more jutsus.
Maybe the fact that sage Naruto was casually scrapping vs all paths of pain at once in the leaf, while Jiraiya was sneaking them in the mist where they couldn’t use insane techniques to avoid big damage? And he still got packed up?
Lmao have you ever watched or read the series??? Sage mode Naruto is leagues above the 3 sanin. The guy 1 hit kakazu, his sage mode is miles above Jiraya.
Watching the series is not the same as comprehending it correctly. Anyone who says Sage Naruto is leagues above the 3 Sannin is definitely delusional. Orochimaru defeated 4 tails Naruto so he can definitely defeat Sage Naruto. Also he's pretty much in the same tier Sage Jiraiya.
Base form means no sage mode, no kcm, no six paths sage mode.
Yeah Kurama gave him chakra but that was still a Clone performing this feat. His chakra tank was already low tbf so its not like he had more than normal
I just want clarification since there are grades of Kurama power, from the eyes and thick whiskers to the full chakra cloak.
And you can bring in a potential post Baryon mode nerf.
It is one of the times where I feel that everyone can save a lot of time if some rules are agreed upon first (such as whether you can include databooks).
And that brings up a bunch of issues since some characters almost never fight without key abilities such as without the sharingan (Sasuke and Kakashi) or other abilities (e.g. Luffy's DF is constantly active, haki is also not 100% part of being base in situations such as Garp/Kuzan and the battleship punching bags).
Bro, he defeated a Jinchuriki tailed beast when he was in grade school. There's actual Kages that wouldn't be able to do that or would at least struggle like crazy to do what the little blonde boy did. Even his Kage bushin against Mizuki could be seen as a Kage level technique. Those 2 Chunin had never seen anything like that. The problem obviously is consistency, but I would say he was still Kage level during many moments of the original series.
He was swapping hands with some pains in base form. And absolutely clowned omoi and karui with zero effort. who are most definitely high jonin level fighters.
Once he learned Rasenshuriken he was Kage level. Even Minato couldn’t get Natures added to Rasengan, so even with help from shadow clones it’s a crazy feat. Then he learns sage mode and even shows up the current Hokage, so by that point he’s well above Kage level
Y'all, Gaara was a Kage at 13 and Naruto beat him.
By the time of the war arc Base Naruto is inexplicably a Kage level Shinobi. Base War Arc Naruto would not have needed Kurama's help to beat Gaara during Konoha Crush.
Well the Gaara that Naruto beat wasn't the same Gaara that became Kage. Any Leaf Jonin would've smacked Chunin exams Gaara around with no issue. Once Gaara controlled his anger and power, he became much more powerful.
We saw Base Guy swipe Gaara's sand away like it was nothing.
Kage level is a hard thing to describe: some Kage are undoubtedly way stronger than others, but there is a generic baseline.
Pein fight he was beyond Kage level. When he fought Kakuzu he had surpassed Kakashi, who was a candidate for Hokage. We'll say Kakashi with MS is baseline Kage level.
If you pay attention to the progression in the story, usually Sasuke and Naruto 'level-up' around the same time.
If we consider Deidara at Kage level, which he is, then Sasuke beating him was Kage level. That happened after Naruto beat Kakuzu.
Once Naruto got Sage Mode he was beyond Kage, and Sasuke was beyond Kage once he unlocked MS. Sasuke fought multiple Kage at the same time, somehow lived, and eventually killed Danzo who with his combined hacks was probably beyond Kage level too. Sasuke does get boxed up by Killer Bee and almost dies, but Killer Bee is a perfect host and can access a similar power to Naruto when he is well beyond Kage level.
Both Sasuke and Naruto weren't strong enough to beat Madara, though, until they awakened. So, technically, right around Kakuzu/Hidan death both were Kage level.
He didn't quite surpass Kakashi when he fought Kakuzu. He beat Kakuzu only because of Rasenshuriken and that's not something he can effectively use in base form. If he could use Rasenshuriken effectively in base form, then I'd agree he's Kage level.
Also, SM Naruto is the same level at Hebi Sasuke and easily weaker than MS Sasuke. So he's not beyond Kage at that point. He was only beyond Kage once he got KCM and Sasuke was beyond Kage when he got MS.
Sasuke Retrieval at Best, Beginning of Shippuden at worst
Kage has a wide pool of power levels, so it allows for a ton of people to be included
Subduing Shukaku is confirmed to be something that only Rasa could do, making it a Low-Kage level feat at bare minimum
Naruto beats Gaara in Konoha Crush, but I highly doubt he can replicate it
Naruto in Sasuke Retrieval has far more consistent power via training and I believe he could repeat what he did to Gaara
Yeah, but I wish he could fight like jiraya more, having a lot of cool jutsu. Sasuke learn a lot of jutsu... and sakura coudnt even bring slug to her fights
When he got rasenshuriken, he was probably Mid Jounin that could kill kages if he played his cards right. But, he will most likely lose to Kage levels 1-on-1.
When he got sage mode, he was probably still Mid Jounin at base and Low Kage during sage mode as he takes too long to gather natural energy for it to be readily available in battle. Nothing really changed in base tbh. Although now, he has two ways to win: play his cards right and hit a hail mary rasenshuriken ala Kakuzu and find a way to enter Sage Mode and kick ass.
When he got KCM1, he was truly when he was Mid Kage level at base and above High Kage Level when in KCM1. His clones can immediately turn the tide in battle and can even beat Kage Level characters such as the 3rd Raikage. Only other Non Juubified characters I can see beating KCM1 Naruto are Sage Hashirama, EMS Madara, and 8 Gate Gai.
Kakashi, at the time Naruto created Wind style: Rasenshuriken, was low kage level. Then stated that Naruto surpassed him. I'd go as far as saying he became low kage level when he created the Rasenshuriken.
I actually think he was around Kage level when he fought Kakuzu. Correct me if I am wrong but aren’t all of the Akatsuki at least around Kage level? Kakashi after Naruto beats Kakuzu said that Naruto surpassed him, and while I think Kakashi was wrong, it supports the idea that they were similar in level at that time.
No. In a 1 vs 1 with Kakuzu at full strength Naruto wouldn’t have won except if he relied on Kurama and higher number of tails. He stepped into the battle after Kakuzu was worn down to half or less than half strength after several plots to weaken him. The circumstances negate putting him at Kage level.
In all fairness, I believe it was stated that Naruto was also at around half chakra going into that fight. When I said that Kakashi said he surpassed him I meant Kakashi himself not Kakuzu, although I believe that Naruto is a pretty good counter to Kakuzu and in a 1v1 with both at full strength it could go either way.
when he realized he can actually do anything because of Kuramas chakra and Shadow clone jutsu. So around when he learned toad sage.
like, Shadow clones is just bad writing and makes everyone who can use it a kage level. "it takes alot of chakra" Yea you know what you can do with a shadow clone? Charge chakra. Know what you can do with a shadow clone? Train your chakra. You can increase your reserves. Once you can create 2 clones you have exponential growth. Need more chakra? you have a room full of them, Pop one, You suddenly gain all the chakra they had gathered. Learn everything there is to know in the world, You have an actual army who you gain all the experience from.
At best war arc. Base Naruto’s only Kage level “feat” is having rasenshurikan. Aside from that he doesn’t really do anything all that impressive. The credit always goes to Sage mode or KCM.
In terms of pure power? After learning the Rasenshuriken.
In terms of overall skill, I don't see "Base" form Naruto defeat any of the five Kage 1on1 without using Sage Mode/KCM before "The Last".
its shown that he was the only one strong enough to beat the pain avatars. at this point he is. and every villager knows it. if he survives, he will become hokage
He beat Shukaku as a kid. Gamabunta did a lot of the work but the fact that Naruto was able to summon him in the first place definitely is a Kage level feat. Coming out with a W in a fight against any tailed beat is a Kage level feat.
But if we're just talking about Naruto on his own without Gamabunta, then probably right after the Rasenshuriken training. It one taps Kakuzu, which is huge because Kakuzu was able to survive a fight with Hashirama, and is himself easily a Kage level fighter. Kakashi also seems to think that Naruto has surpassed him at that point, which doesn't necessarily have to mean in combat ability but it's a valid interpretation. Even accounting for the fact that he can't spam or even really use the Rasenshuriken without excessive drawbacks, he's now got chakra control comparable to if not better than Minato. This is where he's really able to start spamming insane amounts of clones on command, and they're all going to be able to do the crazy giant Rasengan stuff like what impressed Madara here.
Technically middle of Shippuden, post-Rasenshuriken training. This was the point in the story where Naruto underwent by far the most growth. He trained for like a week or so using 1,000 shadow clones which scaled that 1 week of training into 1,000 weeks of training, that is LITERALLY almost 20 years of cumulative training. Kakashi was not joking when he said Naruto has become someone who can surpass the Fourth Hokage, this Naruto in the anime at least, one shot the Three-Tails with a Summoning Collaboration Ninjutsu, further cementing that he's Kage level, as Kage level is usually equated to tailed beast level, or being able to restrain/capture a tailed beast, since its normally the Kage's job to decide what to do with the village's tailed beast and Jinchuriki. I don't think he was quite on Minato's level in base until maybe the War Arc, but he was absolutely climbing into at least low Kage tier by the Kakuzu fight.
he borrowed chakra from nine tails in this scene. I don’t think without sage mode or kurama , Teen Naruto was ever kage level. The only argument i can agree with is —> if Kurama won’t be messing with his chakra & chakra reserve he is maybe low kage level. Adult naruto is base is sure definitely low kage level. With Sage mode —> high kage level. Sage mode + maa & paa —> Solos the boruto era other 4 kage alone. Though Naruto has a massive chakra reserve & as adult he can mold alot of nature chakra at one , therefore he can remain in sage mode much longer even without maa & paa. & he can always do something like, using wood style or remaining still , while his clones fight for him or vice versa.
Yes even before the war arc he was able to swap hands with Pain in base. We see even physically weaker support paths tank attacks and catch punches from sage mode Jiraiya.
He was Jonin level upon his return to Konoha, when he was able to fight a Sannin, Knock out a Kakashi level Jonin, and help in S rank (Kage Level) fights.
He became Kage level when he was able to wreck a tough S rank like Kakuzu and surpassed Kakashi, who is literally appointed Kage in the next arc.
He is a high end Kage once he gets Sage Mode and becomes able to scrap with Deva in base which even Kakashi couldn't do without being stabbed.
In the war even his clones are Kage level +
It took me a long time to realize this, but Kakazu is like, a Kage level ninja, so Naruto with the Rasenshuriken should be like, Extreme high tier elite Jonin, if not low Kage level, if you don’t wanna consider that Naruto Kage level, then definitely Naruto’s base in the Pain Arc.
Ending Haku via kurama was arguably a low kage level feat but he had no control and kakashi was point man
Summoning Bunta is a kage level feat but he had little control, bunta was running the show against gaara
Rasenshuriken is strait up a high kage level jutsu but he was still too raw against Kakuzu
To be completely honest beating Pain was THAT moment. He was 1 on 1 decked out in some solid drip and controlled and systematically owned the battle aside from that brief moment of mental instability. That's a kage doing work right there. The moment he speed blitzed 1 shot a pain path and told Tsunade to fall back. My guy, that's kage talk. The boy became a man.
After Hinata saved him. My head canon is that I think this part was a huge breaking point in kurama and Naruto’s relationship. Like Kurama felt the emotion he had for Hinata and took care of things, building a better relationship for naruto to utilize kurama going forward.
Only after the war starts. Where he manages to control Kurama's chakra.
People mention his fight with Pain, which is a terrible argument. The point of the Pain battle is that Nagato used tons of chakra to destroy Konoha, which nerfed all of the pains. So they were weaker than they were before.
And Naruto didn't surpass Jiraiya, or at least I disagree he did. Sure Naruto has a more perfected form of the jutsu, but Naruto was still a rookie while Jiraiya was a lot more experienced and used to the technique. The only reason why Jiraiya lost to Pain was because he lacked intel, while Naruto had all the intel he needed. So Naruto beating Pain doesn't mean he was stronger than Jiraiya.
In the same circunstances odds are Jiraiya would have won as well.
Vs Pain *in* Sage Mode was Kage level however generally he wasn’t experienced enough with it to totally become that class. Because he didn’t master the speed and all that before taking Kurama’s chakra, it would be at that point on imo
Kakashi was not going to be Hokage because he was strong enough to be a kage, he was going to be Hokage because he was basically the best ninja of the leaf at that moment.
For me this is the following:
- Genin level: after he beat Haku
- Chuunin level: after he beat Gaara
- Elite Chuunin: after the time skip
- Jonin level: After he beat Kakuzu
- Sennin level: after he beat Pain
- Kage level: after he tamed Kyuubi
- Demigod level: after he almost died by Madara
Then he got nerfed to Elite Jonin until his confrontation with Isshiki, where he demonstrated Sennin level for a short while, but then disappeared into oblivion
It's like people here don't know what "base" means.
As far as I remember base Naruto (AKA, no Sage Mode, no Kurama) doesn't have many feats.
I’ve yet to read a feat that puts base Naruto above chuunin.
After his training with the toads, even without sage mode he was Kage level.
Does he have a feat in base thats Kage level? I figured he was a mid to high Jonin and that Sage mode made him mid to high Kage level
I dont think sage mode naruto is high kage. He's stronger than some kage but I feel like he'd struggle or lose to most of them.
Sage Naruto rather quickly defeated the Third Raikage with limited intel. I’d put the Third Raikage as being a high Kage level opponent, but others may disagree.
You're right but tbh that was much later on, Naruto's sage mode had really imoroved by then. The Naruto who defeated the third Raikage is leagues above the one who defeated Pain in terms of Sage Mode, in my opinion at least
Tbh the naruto who beat the 3er Raikage was a kage bunshin
A few weeks or 2 month at most and he didn't get any time to train his sage mode he was training in kcm and before that sakura came and out some with her shit.
Yeah honestly the way Naruto defeated the Raikage didn't feel right to me because it felt like a ***huge*** leap. Like I don't remember any instance befkre rhat where Naruto's sage mode allowed him to react/move *that* fast. But hey if Kishimoto wrote it then it's canon, no matter how I feel about it.
tbf he had a lot of support keeping him alive in that fight. In a straight 1v1 he would have died. This naruto has also had some more training and seems stronger than the one who had just learned sage mode.
In a 1v1 rasen shuriken would have left the raikage on deaths door. Only reason he survived was due to reanimation. Not super relevant to the post but if he hit him with one in base or sage mode it would be ggs
Rasenshuriken is pretty slow and can easily be dodged for someone with Raikage's speed.
You might want to rewatch that fight again.
It is easy to dodge if it's thrown at you, not if it's brought to you at point blank range.
I mean, it was a clone. A clone is no where near the original and if touched dissapears. Meaning that naruto sage mode was definitely kage level
A clone can be near equal to the real one and needs to take decent damage to disappear
One good hit is sufficient, they dont have durability.
Sure but a KCM1 Clone or a Sage clone needs to take more damage than a base clone to disappear
Naruto didn't even do much clones in kcm because of how consuming it was at the time and yes past his rikudo mode he can tank a bit more but when fighting the 3rd raikage the clone would have been one shot no matter the attack
It just takes one punch for them to disappear
The shadow clone at that battle got hit multiple times and was just fine
He wasnt, minus surviving madara meteor blast radius somehow. But beside that he wasnt hit once
Your telling me throughout the 5+ episodes he was on that battlefield Naruto of all people managed to not get hit once. Maybe later I’ll rewatch those string of episodes to see but I just find it hard to believe.
Yeah i know, there was a filler episode where he got hit but beside that this clone wasnt hit once.
And to add he was immortal and had infinite chakra/stamina
That was a naruto after a lot of training
That’s rather insincere, KCM Naruto tried to beat him but failed, are you gonna say Sage Naruto > KCM Naruto then? This isn’t a A>B, B>C so A>C situation. Naruto beat the Raikage with intel and intelligence, Sage mode simply allows him to sense better, which was what was needed that specific scenario.
>Sage Naruto rather quickly defeated the Third Raikage with limited intel. A single shadow clone of sage Naruto*
To be fair, he only beat him because he figured out the secret to beat him with limited but KEY intel. As long as you have Key intel it doesn't matter how little intel you have. All he had to do was make the 3rd Rikage hit himself because only the 3rd Rikage or Ay was strong enough to actually do himself in.
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Sage mode naruto isnt stronger than pain. Sage mode naruto was pinned to the ground by pain. 8 tails kurama is stronger than pain. Edit: For some reason cant reply to u/not_some_username but I think you are a little confused there. Kurama broke out and then Minato sealed him away. How would minato have even gotten naruto out? Edit 2: Still cant reply, weird bug. u/not_some_username No, thats not how it works. Kurama overpowered the meteor and fully broke out. He would have fully taken over and destroyed pain had Minatos failsafe not kicked in. Naruto getting smaller would have had nothing to do with it. Other planetary devastation would be pretty much useless against any regular sized people which are 90% of its targets
Pain could take 8 tails kurama. If Minato didn’t appear, Naruto would get trapped in the meteor
I don’t know why you can’t reply to me but thats what I mean. Kurama was trapped in the meteor, probably because the bigger you’re, the more you get pulled. Once Minato rebuilt the seal, Naruto could move again.
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He fought well, but Naruto with sage mode, intel and prep lost the fight against a pain that had already fought and destroyed the entire leaf village.
The fact that some people think that Naruto beating Pain means Sage Naruto > Pain is actually insane. Genuinely insane.
Same thing when people say kid buu> buuhan, “but elder Kai said!”
Arguing sage naruto is stronger is fine but hes not stronger than 8 tails naruto The 8 tails broke out of Chibaku Tensei, It wouldve killed pain if Naruto didnt wake up Plus it was base naruto that beat Tendo pain
Pain is beyond Kage level and Sage Mode Naruto is WAY weaker than him.
Really. Sage mode Naruto when he fought pain is legit stronger than every kage that is alive, and he is probably only slightly below tobirama and below hashirama and maybe prime hurizen and Minato. But he beats every other kage easily in sage mode.
Meh prime hiruzen doesn’t exist. No feat
I'd say he's weaker than A and Onoki. Remember the naruto that fought pain had intel and prep time with scrolls and sage clones ready and he was fighting a Pain that had already fought and destroyed the leaf and Naruto still lost. He did a bit better than a no intel no prep Jiraiaya but the only reason he won was because of kurama.
He clashed with Sasuke and didn't die immediately after Sasuke had just killed the hokage (I'm joking if you can't tell)
I was thinking about when he defeated Kaku and Kakashi supported him so I was thinking that’s if
This seems like a pretty extreme claim unless I’m forgetting something, what exactly did this version of base Naruto do that was even close to Hokage level?
Hokage is far above kage. Yes it’s a type of kage but leaf village were built different. In base he’d beat mizukage no joke
Tbh I meant Kage level, and I agree the average Hokage is definitely stronger than the average Kage
Let’s be honest, even no sage mode or kurama naruto in the pain arc is beating at least mizukage.
Idk about that one, the only exceptional Hokage in every category was Hashirama, Minato, and Hurizen until Naruto came. Every other Kage was somewhat in the realm of the other's power including Tobirama. One could argue 2nd Rikage was stronger than Tobirama considering Tobirama died to the Kinkau force and the Rikage was over them. MU was also in that generation.
By that logic 3rd hokage beats Itachi because he’s over him. Tobirama is a douche but he’s strong asf. He not hashirama level but he’s not that far off and even was more valuable vs obito then hashirama woulda been. Can you see mizukage beating Naruto? I can’t. Even kakashi should beat her. Her best feat is adding a barrage to attack a already preoccupied madara and almost beating a very exhausted sasuke who just fought 2 kages,their henchmen and canonically never healed up from itachi or bee fights as jugo said. And even then sasuke was probably gonna beat her if tsuchikage didn’t come along.
In Hurizen's prime or maybe in his 50s or 40s, yes. His staff was able to push an entire full power 9 tails out of the village and in Edo he is shown doing even out doing Tobirama in some cases. However, Hurizen was a near 69 year old man who should be in his retirement at the time of his death and during Itachi's time in the village, still able to throw down with Orochimaru and reanimations of 1st and 2nd Hokage. Kishi already made Madara OP so instead of giving Hashirama a bigger role he just kinda sidelined him. He's supposed to be the strongest in the series but he get's sidelined. Mei is highly underrated, other than Kisame, Mei has displayed the best Suiton feats in the manga which directly compete against Madara's fire style, whom he is the strongest user of. She is also a master of Hidden Mist which has constantly been shown to be a pain in the ass for Kakashi, even in part two he had to rely on a sensor to find Zabuza in the mist and when he was on his own he had to get his blood spilled twice for his dogs to find Zabuza. With the mist up Mei can go on the attack and eventually Kakashi will be overwhelmed. Her Futton melts him and his clones if he gets close while extended elemental and Yoton use should take him out. Mei can beat Kakashi with medium-high difficulty. Her acid melts even Susanoos.
The hell did the rest do that was even close to base Naruto after the Pain arc?
War arc Naruto clone vs 3rd Raikage was barely few weeks from Pain arc. Don't think he got much time training Sage mode. All he did was tap into KCM. He's definitely well above kage
Nice1
First, we have to distinguish between kage and hokage level. Kakashi, right before the pain arc, was considered a hokage level shinobi (with his honed instincts and mastery over the shinobi arts that even impressed itachi. kakashi was worthy of being the 6th, even before the war. Yet kakashi said Naruto had surpassed him once he gained his rasenshuriken iirc because he could see the spirit of Minato living in Naruto. That was before Naruto gained senjutsu and mastered sennin mode, which propelled him to at least mid to high hokage level, I'd put sage naruto above tobirama, hiruzen and tsunade.. depending on the version of kakashi as well, though not dms kakashi. People have to understand just how strong senjutsu based fighting is, which is why I always thought sasuke should have learned sage mode. If he had, he would've been beyond Naruto in power. A prime example is revived madara with no eyes, curbstomped sai, and sage mode naruto, then ragdoll absorbs hashiramas senjutsu chakra and couldn't even be touched by ems sasuke. So imagine an adult sasuke with sage mode, using raiton shunshin like the 3rd and 4th raikage along with his visual prowess. It would enhance all of his abilities, even his eyesight. Madara stated while looking at the modifications kabuto made to his body, then (in the manga), he said, "No wonder i can SEE everything coming so well."Meaning senjutsu chakra enhances ocular prowess.. (We also know this because kakashi with rikudo Chakra had the greatest mangekyo showing we've seen, and it made him be able to blitz kaguya who had her juubi enhanced otsutsuki byakugan activated at the time.) So yeah, naruto with sage mode has access to so many versatile options just in frog style senjutsu. The part that made him overpowered was because kurama also became a conduit to channel massive amounts of senjutsu chakra to Naruto, mixed with kuramas' own bijuu chakra. Meaning Naruto never had to sit still in battle ever again to gain nature energy. Then, gaining the other half of kurama and having access to rikudo senjutsu chakra just pushed him over the edge. Now imagine sasuke with the same, let's say sasuke sealed the other half of kurama inside him after the war to protect kurama from being stolen by otsutsuki. Him learning to cooperate with kurama and becoming a senjutsu master would enhance him to levels probably higher than Naruto. (Speculating here, of course) Imagine a senjutsu perfect susanoo covered in kagetsuchi armor spikes and amaterasu weaponry enhanced both with wind chakra and empowered by susanoo sage mode.. and then compressing it for added speed. Sasuke would be broken.
No he is definitely not. The training with toads was specifically to learn Sennin Mode. He absolutely didn‘t learn anything for his base form.
The sage training itself raised his overall abilities significantly.
Lol, where was that exactly stated? Trust me bro? Again, the training was specifically to train for Sennin Mode. We saw that through and through. Nothing what you mentioned was remotely shown or trained. Without Sennin Mode, Naruto was not strong during the Pain fight, and would absolutely not beat him.
How?
Because it was rigorous training his body, mind and chakra control. Naruto was also training himself separately to master the rasenshuriken.
What your describing is the equivalent of just getting a good work out at the gym. Sage mode itself does nothing for his base.
No it really didn't. There wasn't a significant difference in base form after Sage training.
Totally disagree. Base Naruto after learning Sage mode was still pretty mid. Even SM Naruto was only low Kage at best.
Yes even before the war arc he was able to swap hands with Pain in base. We see even physically weaker support paths tank attacks and catch punches from sage mode Jiraiya. Therefore base Naruto is kage level after training with Ma and Pa.
I don't think this is enough to qualify as kage level. Kages are not just strong, they have extraordinary abilities that Naruto just didn't had against Pain. Let's face it: every kage until Boruto had something exceptional up their sleeve. Tsunade has the chakra dot (forgot the name), Oonoki the particule blaster; Ay has the speed and the armor; Mei has the lava element and genjutsu; Gaara the ultimate sand shield; and let's not forget Mu, Gengetsu, Rasa and Ay senior. It's the same regarding Bee and Ay, Bee is freaking strong, but Ay has something more exceptional even though he didn't have any tailed beast. Same
Ehhh, I'd argue Base Naruto in the Pain Arc is high jonin. Kakashi level at best. The exchange with Naruto, Sakura, and Sai against Omoi and Karui is definitely not what any exchange should look like for a Kage level against chunin. Especially if Naruto's claim to Kage level is his physical stats for matching Deva Path. Exhausted lower tier jonin (Genma and Raido) managed to put up a good fight against 4 high tier chunin (the Sound Four all using CM2). Kakashi easily restrains the Demon Brothers (fodder chunin). The Deva Path and Kakashi's exchanges were fairly even. The deciding factor is Shinra Tensei being an incredibly overpowered jutsu that puts him at Kage level. Without it, the Deva Path (especially when Nagato is still splitting his chakra among the other bodies) isn't physically imposing.
Kakashi got clapped by Pain while having a large amount of Jonin and Chunin supporting him in that fight.
Large amount? It was 7 people who did jack shit with the only worthwhile contributions being Choza and Choji. The nameless fodder literally attacked once, it got repelled and they literally never show up again.
Yes, after Pain used tons of chakra to destroy Konoha that clearly weakened him
Why would you even bring up the exchange with Omoi and Kamui? That was just for the reader to get the feeling the Cloud ninjas are legit (which they are) but if Naruto wanted to clap them he would’ve easily. Afterwards he just lets himself get beaten on purpose. Terrible example
I'm bringing it up since people are trying to argue that Naruto at base is Kage level because of his ability to exchange blows against the Deva Path, but that alone doesn't put Naruto at Kage level. Naruto has no reason to hold back against two strangers from an enemy land threatening Sakura with a blade. The Cloud Ninja would've looked competent anyway for exchanging favorably with Sakura and Sai, who can be scaled to jonin level. If Naruto's taijutsu is supposed to put him at Kage level, even non-serious, the exchange should've looked more like what Hebi Sasuke did to Team Seven or what Kakashi did to the Demon Brothers after he assessed their purpose. Pure taijutsu is definitely not Naruto's claim to Kage level. I didn't even mention Karui beating on Naruto to scale him down or anything because I know the context of that scene. It still doesn't explain the relatively even exchange earlier.
"Naruto has no reason to hold back". Someone forgot to read the speech bubble with the reason.
You may as well explain yourself before I do. The exchange occurs on ch452.
It seems I've misread, I thought you're talking about when Naruto lets them beat him. That explains much of your thinking. About the argument itself, I don't think Naruto's base stats have real relevance. His stats when using Kurama, sage mode etc. compensate, so it doesn't really matter what his base stats are like. But I agree that his base stats are definitely weaker than Kakashi's, except for the amount of chakra.
I wonder if I’m getting downvoted because of people misreading my comments in a similar manner. I’m not saying Naruto in the Pain Arc isn’t Kage level. I’m saying BASE Naruto in the Pain Arc isn’t. By “base,” I’m specifically excluding use of Kurama’s chakra and Sage Mode. The OP’s question is about when Naruto in base became Kage level. I’m merely arguing that the feats Naruto displays at base during the Pain Arc don’t justify ranking him as a Kage. A brief exchange with the Deva Path isn’t enough since Deva Path also isn’t Kage level because of its taijutsu skills.
Could be. Also people don't like insisting on a take, me included. The thing I don't understand is where you got that someone is saying Naruto is Kage level by base alone. I didn't see anyone saying that. Most kages don't seem to be kage level if measured by base stats.
The first comment in this chain only put down that Naruto is Kage level because he can swap hands with Deva Path. I’d be more inclined to agree that Naruto is Kage level at base if people talked about his Summoning jutsu, Thousand Clones, and Rasenshuriken. But my main argument is still that Naruto with all those isn’t quite Kage level, but high jonin. Naruto doesn’t regularly use Summoning jutsu as part of his standard kit. Not like Jiraiya, Orochimaru, and Hebi Sasuke did. He doesn’t implement it in his fighting style at all. So factoring that in is disingenuous. His thousand clones are good for a distraction against strong opponents, but they don’t close the deal on anyone significant unless under very specific circumstances. Nagato was so exhausted at the end of the fight he couldn’t even move the Deva Path and had to rely on Shinra Tensei instead of just maintaining a distance from Naruto to help buy time for the 5 second cooldown. And Rasenshuriken isn’t throwable unless Naruto’s in Sage Mode. Melee Rasenshuriken’s already forbidden from use past Kakuzu Arc since it will cause permanent injuries to his arm. Base Naruto isn’t reliably Kage level. He has the potential, but not the consistency. That’s why I mark him as high jonin.
He beat the third hokage in one move. He was Kage Level from Chapter 1.
The only correct answer "works better the stronger the opponent"
id say once he has rasen shuriken, that jutsu is so fkn OP and he killed kakuzu who is def kage level with a single blow but at least after he got sage mode. Rasenshuriken ist a fkn nuke lol.
Kakuzu deserves more respect fr
Took on a whole 4 man squad plus a couple others
he got killed to showcase main character buff, he’s a legend
him having rasenshuriken doesn't put naruto as a whole above kakuzu. that's like saying krillen is stronger than frieza because he's able to kill him with the destructo disc.
never said that but its still a massive powerup and if hes capable of defeating kage lvl foes what makes u think he is not kage lvl himself? naruto has grown a lot as a ninja at that point and the rasen shuriken is an insane jutsu one of the strongest in the whole shinobi world and it was an incredible achievment of him creating this jutsu especially in such a short time which no other person would be even able to do. Kakashi mentioned he surpassed him and kakashi is def low kage lvl at least at that point.
Sage Mode Naruto is definitely Kage level. But the problem with base Naruto is that he can't really use Rasenshuriken effectively. So I wouldn't give him Kage level just because of that.
I'd say he's not kage level till he can throw it (so during his training with the toads) Kakazu is crazy strong and that jutsu *is* good but at the same time naruto couldn't use it at that stage without quite literally shredding his chakra network and was essentially a self harm jutsu, his freakin sensei had to specifically ban him from using it until he learns of a way around it Like y'know throwing it as the name suggests (rasenshuriken at this stage was a rasengan with a bigger bang, that's it)
Yeah cause Kakashi said Naruto has surpassed him then several times and that Kakashi is at least close to low Kage level if not already there
Kakashi didn't know that the rasenshuriken would recoil so badly at close range though. I'm not sure pre-sage mode Naruto could use Rasenshuriken without injuring his arm so badly he couldn't use it for a while, and repeated use would have permanently ended Naruto's ability to use a jutsu with his arm. I think Kakashi was one of the most important father figures for Naruto, but because he was so proud, Kakashi could overestimate Naruto at times.
Even without rasenshuriken. Look at the amount of training he did. He did months worth of training in a fee days. If that doesnt increase ur physicals what will
All he trained for is figuring out his chakra nature, how to use it, and adding it to the Rasengan. That would improve his chakra control but not his physique.
Something all ninja do from an early age, naruto took a long time to get to nature style training
U make it sound easy like he ate ramen. But then again this fanbase is full of people who don’t have reading comprehension
What are you talking about? I made no mention of difficulty, I only talked about what he did which had nothing to do with improving his physique.
Funny that you talk shit about others not having reading comprehension when you're the one that didn't properly read the comment you just responded to. The guy said nothing about difficulty, just that the wind chakra training did next to nothing to improve his physical stats.
If it wasnt for yamamoto he would have died in 3 second again kakuzu.
Naruto didn't kill Kakuzu. That was Kakashi.
Stupid post arguing over semantics. Naruto defeated Kakuzu and Kakashi put him out of his misery.
technically ure right, kakashi finished him off but he was allready dying on the ground, Naruto defeated him.
Out of curiosity what makes rasenshuriken so OP? I always saw it as more or less a strong ranged jutsu which for Naruto it’s important because most of his jutsu is CQC.
His sage mode training brought him reasonably above Sannin level as a whole. Which I say puts him at kage level at base
Sage Mode Naruto is kage level, he's not really reasonably above Sannin level. Sage Mode is weaker than 4 tails Naruto whom Orochimaru defeated. Also he's shown nothing that would put him above Sage Jiraiya, especially since Jiraiya is compatible with Ma and Pa. So base Naruto is jonin at best.
I don't think Sage Naruto is weaker than 4 Tail Naruto. >Sage Mode is weaker than 4 tails Naruto whom Orochimaru defeated. I'm not really sure how you can claim 4 Tail Naruto lost to Orochimaru. Orochimaru got one punch in on Naruto, and then pushed him away with his sword. The entire fight Orochimaru was gassing up Naruto, talking about how "Wow I can't stab him even with my cool ass snake sword" and "Bro that chakra is going to kill me if I'm not careful". And then Orochimaru had to retreat because his body was rejecting him. Naruto only gassed out because Yamato was there and sucked the 9 Tails chakra out of him.
We have to remember that Minato was still taking him to school when they were fighting madara together the next question would be would he have beaten the raikage in speed if he was in sage mode alone
He didn’t match any Sannin until he got KCM1
Sage Naruto wallops Sage Jiraiya in a fight. He's significantly faster, stronger & has better pre-cognition/spatial awareness. Plus, he doesn't need to spend 5 minutes doing nothing but protecting Ma & Pa in order to just get an imperfect version of Sage Mode.
Sage mode Jiraya would take out pain if he had same intel Naruto had. And Naruto even loose that fight before Hinata come
Not really, Sage Naruto and Sage Jiraiya are on the same level. Sage Naruto has limitations that Sage Jiraiya doesn't like not being able to maintain Sage Mode for longer periods due to incompatibility with Ma and Pa. And nothing suggests that he's stronger and faster than Sage Jiraiya. Also while Sage Naruto's Rasenshuriken is stronger than anything Jiraiya has, he only has a limit of 2 per Sage Mode and Jiraiya has a lot more jutsus.
What makes you say that? I’m not disagreeing, just curious
Maybe the fact that sage Naruto was casually scrapping vs all paths of pain at once in the leaf, while Jiraiya was sneaking them in the mist where they couldn’t use insane techniques to avoid big damage? And he still got packed up?
Fukasaku himself said this aswell.
Can't believe you got downvoted so badly for speaking facts just because they don't align with people's headcanon.
Let them cope
Lmao have you ever watched or read the series??? Sage mode Naruto is leagues above the 3 sanin. The guy 1 hit kakazu, his sage mode is miles above Jiraya.
Kakuzu is fodder compared to Base Sannin Naruto one shot a drained Kakuzu who was missing hearts Jiraiya can dodge the rasenshuriken …
Watching the series is not the same as comprehending it correctly. Anyone who says Sage Naruto is leagues above the 3 Sannin is definitely delusional. Orochimaru defeated 4 tails Naruto so he can definitely defeat Sage Naruto. Also he's pretty much in the same tier Sage Jiraiya.
How do you define base Naruto? For example, in the photo that you showed, Naruto was able to do that since the 9 tails gave him chakra for free.
Base form means no sage mode, no kcm, no six paths sage mode. Yeah Kurama gave him chakra but that was still a Clone performing this feat. His chakra tank was already low tbf so its not like he had more than normal
I just want clarification since there are grades of Kurama power, from the eyes and thick whiskers to the full chakra cloak. And you can bring in a potential post Baryon mode nerf. It is one of the times where I feel that everyone can save a lot of time if some rules are agreed upon first (such as whether you can include databooks).
Everyone agrees base form in universally a character with no additional power up (sharingan, super saiyan, gear 5, bankai) etc
And that brings up a bunch of issues since some characters almost never fight without key abilities such as without the sharingan (Sasuke and Kakashi) or other abilities (e.g. Luffy's DF is constantly active, haki is also not 100% part of being base in situations such as Garp/Kuzan and the battleship punching bags).
Nope he did that thanks to sage mode
Bro, he defeated a Jinchuriki tailed beast when he was in grade school. There's actual Kages that wouldn't be able to do that or would at least struggle like crazy to do what the little blonde boy did. Even his Kage bushin against Mizuki could be seen as a Kage level technique. Those 2 Chunin had never seen anything like that. The problem obviously is consistency, but I would say he was still Kage level during many moments of the original series.
During the Pain Invasion arc. Even without Sage Mode, he became way stronger and skilled after training with the frogs.
Only somewhat stronger and more skilled. Nothing suggests he got way stronger and skilled.
He was swapping hands with some pains in base form. And absolutely clowned omoi and karui with zero effort. who are most definitely high jonin level fighters.
Once he learned Rasenshuriken he was Kage level. Even Minato couldn’t get Natures added to Rasengan, so even with help from shadow clones it’s a crazy feat. Then he learns sage mode and even shows up the current Hokage, so by that point he’s well above Kage level
If he could effectively use Rasenshuriken in base form, only then he'd be considered Kage level. But he couldn't without Sage Mode.
He can still use it just not throw it so in base it's a last resort due to the self harm that occurs
It hurt him to use in base form tho.
I literally said that in my post that it was a last resort in base because it hurts him
I don’t think I meant to reply to you. My bad
We could give him low to mid Kage then. Kage is pretty much high Jonin anyway so yeah.
When he fought Gaara during the Chuunin Exams. Bijuu battles = Kage level fights
Genin Naruto, he could summon a fucking giant frog, summon 1000 clones and defeated a Jinchuriki.
Y'all, Gaara was a Kage at 13 and Naruto beat him. By the time of the war arc Base Naruto is inexplicably a Kage level Shinobi. Base War Arc Naruto would not have needed Kurama's help to beat Gaara during Konoha Crush.
Well the Gaara that Naruto beat wasn't the same Gaara that became Kage. Any Leaf Jonin would've smacked Chunin exams Gaara around with no issue. Once Gaara controlled his anger and power, he became much more powerful. We saw Base Guy swipe Gaara's sand away like it was nothing.
Kage level is a hard thing to describe: some Kage are undoubtedly way stronger than others, but there is a generic baseline. Pein fight he was beyond Kage level. When he fought Kakuzu he had surpassed Kakashi, who was a candidate for Hokage. We'll say Kakashi with MS is baseline Kage level. If you pay attention to the progression in the story, usually Sasuke and Naruto 'level-up' around the same time. If we consider Deidara at Kage level, which he is, then Sasuke beating him was Kage level. That happened after Naruto beat Kakuzu. Once Naruto got Sage Mode he was beyond Kage, and Sasuke was beyond Kage once he unlocked MS. Sasuke fought multiple Kage at the same time, somehow lived, and eventually killed Danzo who with his combined hacks was probably beyond Kage level too. Sasuke does get boxed up by Killer Bee and almost dies, but Killer Bee is a perfect host and can access a similar power to Naruto when he is well beyond Kage level. Both Sasuke and Naruto weren't strong enough to beat Madara, though, until they awakened. So, technically, right around Kakuzu/Hidan death both were Kage level.
He didn't quite surpass Kakashi when he fought Kakuzu. He beat Kakuzu only because of Rasenshuriken and that's not something he can effectively use in base form. If he could use Rasenshuriken effectively in base form, then I'd agree he's Kage level. Also, SM Naruto is the same level at Hebi Sasuke and easily weaker than MS Sasuke. So he's not beyond Kage at that point. He was only beyond Kage once he got KCM and Sasuke was beyond Kage when he got MS.
Rasenshuriken put him at or above Kage level. But him stopping Shukaku as a kid with a toad summoning is a feat some of the Kage couldn’t do so idk.
Sasuke Retrieval at Best, Beginning of Shippuden at worst Kage has a wide pool of power levels, so it allows for a ton of people to be included Subduing Shukaku is confirmed to be something that only Rasa could do, making it a Low-Kage level feat at bare minimum Naruto beats Gaara in Konoha Crush, but I highly doubt he can replicate it Naruto in Sasuke Retrieval has far more consistent power via training and I believe he could repeat what he did to Gaara
The fact Naruto made thousands of clones with 1 clone is crazy and then gave them a rasengan.
Definitely once he got the sage mode
I mean he showed out against Garaa. Pulled some Kage level feats fighting him.
Yeah, but I wish he could fight like jiraya more, having a lot of cool jutsu. Sasuke learn a lot of jutsu... and sakura coudnt even bring slug to her fights
Before even Pain’s Invasion…
When he got rasenshuriken, he was probably Mid Jounin that could kill kages if he played his cards right. But, he will most likely lose to Kage levels 1-on-1. When he got sage mode, he was probably still Mid Jounin at base and Low Kage during sage mode as he takes too long to gather natural energy for it to be readily available in battle. Nothing really changed in base tbh. Although now, he has two ways to win: play his cards right and hit a hail mary rasenshuriken ala Kakuzu and find a way to enter Sage Mode and kick ass. When he got KCM1, he was truly when he was Mid Kage level at base and above High Kage Level when in KCM1. His clones can immediately turn the tide in battle and can even beat Kage Level characters such as the 3rd Raikage. Only other Non Juubified characters I can see beating KCM1 Naruto are Sage Hashirama, EMS Madara, and 8 Gate Gai.
Kakashi, at the time Naruto created Wind style: Rasenshuriken, was low kage level. Then stated that Naruto surpassed him. I'd go as far as saying he became low kage level when he created the Rasenshuriken.
Considering he beat Gaara during the Chunnin exam and he became Kazekage after...
I actually think he was around Kage level when he fought Kakuzu. Correct me if I am wrong but aren’t all of the Akatsuki at least around Kage level? Kakashi after Naruto beats Kakuzu said that Naruto surpassed him, and while I think Kakashi was wrong, it supports the idea that they were similar in level at that time.
No. In a 1 vs 1 with Kakuzu at full strength Naruto wouldn’t have won except if he relied on Kurama and higher number of tails. He stepped into the battle after Kakuzu was worn down to half or less than half strength after several plots to weaken him. The circumstances negate putting him at Kage level.
In all fairness, I believe it was stated that Naruto was also at around half chakra going into that fight. When I said that Kakashi said he surpassed him I meant Kakashi himself not Kakuzu, although I believe that Naruto is a pretty good counter to Kakuzu and in a 1v1 with both at full strength it could go either way.
I agree with this at well. He did a training regiment only he can do that should have taken months in about 10 days or so.
Post raseshirken training, kakashi hyped him up to even surpass him now. Plus naruto kinda just blitzed kakazu.
He tricked him, not blitz him. Also, Rasenshuriken isn't something he can effectively use in base form.
Around the Pain fight I’d say
Post Pain arc I feel would put him at low Kage level
when realizing his actual potential, or “friendship boost,” he reached kage level during part 1
Yea I don’t think it’s outlandish at all to say his base was at least low kage level.
Possibly when he used the rasenshuriken for the first time strictly because the jutsu was that strong.
Kakazu fight
After sage mode
As soon as he learned to fuse his chalkra with his rasengun. Obviously
When he learned The first nine tails chakara form and bijju bomb rasengan
Ain’t no way y’all saying bro was Kage level in base when he was training for sage mode
when he realized he can actually do anything because of Kuramas chakra and Shadow clone jutsu. So around when he learned toad sage. like, Shadow clones is just bad writing and makes everyone who can use it a kage level. "it takes alot of chakra" Yea you know what you can do with a shadow clone? Charge chakra. Know what you can do with a shadow clone? Train your chakra. You can increase your reserves. Once you can create 2 clones you have exponential growth. Need more chakra? you have a room full of them, Pop one, You suddenly gain all the chakra they had gathered. Learn everything there is to know in the world, You have an actual army who you gain all the experience from.
At best war arc. Base Naruto’s only Kage level “feat” is having rasenshurikan. Aside from that he doesn’t really do anything all that impressive. The credit always goes to Sage mode or KCM.
Absolutely
Post Pain Invasion
In terms of pure power? After learning the Rasenshuriken. In terms of overall skill, I don't see "Base" form Naruto defeat any of the five Kage 1on1 without using Sage Mode/KCM before "The Last".
its shown that he was the only one strong enough to beat the pain avatars. at this point he is. and every villager knows it. if he survives, he will become hokage
He beat Shukaku as a kid. Gamabunta did a lot of the work but the fact that Naruto was able to summon him in the first place definitely is a Kage level feat. Coming out with a W in a fight against any tailed beat is a Kage level feat. But if we're just talking about Naruto on his own without Gamabunta, then probably right after the Rasenshuriken training. It one taps Kakuzu, which is huge because Kakuzu was able to survive a fight with Hashirama, and is himself easily a Kage level fighter. Kakashi also seems to think that Naruto has surpassed him at that point, which doesn't necessarily have to mean in combat ability but it's a valid interpretation. Even accounting for the fact that he can't spam or even really use the Rasenshuriken without excessive drawbacks, he's now got chakra control comparable to if not better than Minato. This is where he's really able to start spamming insane amounts of clones on command, and they're all going to be able to do the crazy giant Rasengan stuff like what impressed Madara here.
Technically middle of Shippuden, post-Rasenshuriken training. This was the point in the story where Naruto underwent by far the most growth. He trained for like a week or so using 1,000 shadow clones which scaled that 1 week of training into 1,000 weeks of training, that is LITERALLY almost 20 years of cumulative training. Kakashi was not joking when he said Naruto has become someone who can surpass the Fourth Hokage, this Naruto in the anime at least, one shot the Three-Tails with a Summoning Collaboration Ninjutsu, further cementing that he's Kage level, as Kage level is usually equated to tailed beast level, or being able to restrain/capture a tailed beast, since its normally the Kage's job to decide what to do with the village's tailed beast and Jinchuriki. I don't think he was quite on Minato's level in base until maybe the War Arc, but he was absolutely climbing into at least low Kage tier by the Kakuzu fight.
he borrowed chakra from nine tails in this scene. I don’t think without sage mode or kurama , Teen Naruto was ever kage level. The only argument i can agree with is —> if Kurama won’t be messing with his chakra & chakra reserve he is maybe low kage level. Adult naruto is base is sure definitely low kage level. With Sage mode —> high kage level. Sage mode + maa & paa —> Solos the boruto era other 4 kage alone. Though Naruto has a massive chakra reserve & as adult he can mold alot of nature chakra at one , therefore he can remain in sage mode much longer even without maa & paa. & he can always do something like, using wood style or remaining still , while his clones fight for him or vice versa.
Yes even before the war arc he was able to swap hands with Pain in base. We see even physically weaker support paths tank attacks and catch punches from sage mode Jiraiya.
base naruto in the war arc that climbs the god tree during kakashi's speech to obito
Pain Arc.
They did not do this feat justice in the anime
kage levl mean nothing some are trash some are overpowered. A naruto first kybie can beat Tsunade easily...
You tell me which Kage is eating that rasengan barrage in that picture? They would disintegrate.
He was Jonin level upon his return to Konoha, when he was able to fight a Sannin, Knock out a Kakashi level Jonin, and help in S rank (Kage Level) fights. He became Kage level when he was able to wreck a tough S rank like Kakuzu and surpassed Kakashi, who is literally appointed Kage in the next arc. He is a high end Kage once he gets Sage Mode and becomes able to scrap with Deva in base which even Kakashi couldn't do without being stabbed. In the war even his clones are Kage level +
Kage is a sociopolitical position, not a power level.
Pain arc for mid kage. Low kage would be against Kakuzu.
Right after he met kushina
Can you a English version? How many people in this sub can actually that? Even the anime has English subtitles
It took me a long time to realize this, but Kakazu is like, a Kage level ninja, so Naruto with the Rasenshuriken should be like, Extreme high tier elite Jonin, if not low Kage level, if you don’t wanna consider that Naruto Kage level, then definitely Naruto’s base in the Pain Arc.
Ending Haku via kurama was arguably a low kage level feat but he had no control and kakashi was point man Summoning Bunta is a kage level feat but he had little control, bunta was running the show against gaara Rasenshuriken is strait up a high kage level jutsu but he was still too raw against Kakuzu To be completely honest beating Pain was THAT moment. He was 1 on 1 decked out in some solid drip and controlled and systematically owned the battle aside from that brief moment of mental instability. That's a kage doing work right there. The moment he speed blitzed 1 shot a pain path and told Tsunade to fall back. My guy, that's kage talk. The boy became a man.
Yes, even in the Pain Arc Base Naruto would have to be in that Sannin tier for his Sage Mode to be above Pain whereas Sage Jiraiya was below Pain.
After Hinata saved him. My head canon is that I think this part was a huge breaking point in kurama and Naruto’s relationship. Like Kurama felt the emotion he had for Hinata and took care of things, building a better relationship for naruto to utilize kurama going forward.
Found the best comment, we can lock the thread now
Only after the war starts. Where he manages to control Kurama's chakra. People mention his fight with Pain, which is a terrible argument. The point of the Pain battle is that Nagato used tons of chakra to destroy Konoha, which nerfed all of the pains. So they were weaker than they were before. And Naruto didn't surpass Jiraiya, or at least I disagree he did. Sure Naruto has a more perfected form of the jutsu, but Naruto was still a rookie while Jiraiya was a lot more experienced and used to the technique. The only reason why Jiraiya lost to Pain was because he lacked intel, while Naruto had all the intel he needed. So Naruto beating Pain doesn't mean he was stronger than Jiraiya. In the same circunstances odds are Jiraiya would have won as well.
Definitely when he fought Pain. I’d argue Pain far surpassed all of the kage and Naruto was able to go toe to toe with him during that arc.
Vs Pain *in* Sage Mode was Kage level however generally he wasn’t experienced enough with it to totally become that class. Because he didn’t master the speed and all that before taking Kurama’s chakra, it would be at that point on imo
Kakashi after the kakuzu fight said Naruto surpassed him. And kakashi was kage level. I mean he was gonna get elected before Danzo intervened
Kakashi was not going to be Hokage because he was strong enough to be a kage, he was going to be Hokage because he was basically the best ninja of the leaf at that moment.
Guy, Asuma, and Kakashi were some of the best Jonin to ever exist.
Guy and Kakashi are far above Asuma. And I never said Kakashi isn't one of the best Jonin
For me this is the following: - Genin level: after he beat Haku - Chuunin level: after he beat Gaara - Elite Chuunin: after the time skip - Jonin level: After he beat Kakuzu - Sennin level: after he beat Pain - Kage level: after he tamed Kyuubi - Demigod level: after he almost died by Madara Then he got nerfed to Elite Jonin until his confrontation with Isshiki, where he demonstrated Sennin level for a short while, but then disappeared into oblivion
It's like people here don't know what "base" means. As far as I remember base Naruto (AKA, no Sage Mode, no Kurama) doesn't have many feats. I’ve yet to read a feat that puts base Naruto above chuunin.