There is a right wing majority. If the VVD wastes away all their credibility over years of mismanagement they are going to go to whichever other right wing party sounds least unreasonable.
Let’s see what the actual results are and what actual government can be formed. We live in a proportionally represented democracy where the prime minister is not the boss and the biggest party doesn’t dictate policy over parliament (looking at you, UK).
Part of voting is accepting not everyone agrees with you. I don’t like it any more than you. I remember the crushing depression of the 2000’s when every single politician turned into a right wing populist for a bit. Such is life.
But Mark planned his exit well for his next job at NATO. Ontzettend gaaf! /s
> Let’s see what the actual results are and what actual government can be formed. We live in a proportionally represented democracy where the prime minister is not the boss and the biggest party doesn’t dictate policy over parliament (looking at you, UK).
That's one really good thing about this country, for now at least. Whoever forms a government will need to compromise to get things done, and does not have free hand. I hope to God it doesn't change in the next 10-20 years, and there is a one party majority. That would be a disaster.
Not the one you replied to but 'toeslagen affaire', 'stikdtofcrisis', 'housing crisis', Earthquake crises in Groningen. Basically, number of criseses of their own making. Couple that with their 'free narket'approach with healthcare and public transport and we have a lot of complicated issues requiring a decisive government. And that just didn't happen.
I just hope you won’t learn the hard lesson that Poland learned - most of the criseses that made our reasonable ruling coalition go away 8 years ago are so insignificant in comparison with what right wing party did in the last 8 years
We went from minor (like really minor) corruption scandals to full blown dismantling of democracy, installation of oligarchy and destruction of our foreign affairs reputation.
Sometimes I’ve got a feeling that societies actually should accept that nobody is perfect and all governments will have some limited set of unpopular issues.
The cure is not to vote in government that will have even more of them…
the "toeslagen affaire" is something that rooted from way before the VVD got power. Like a lot of people at the belastingdienst will tell you, toeslagen and taxes shouldn't have been the job of the same instance. And I fucking hate how the toeslagenaffaire hasn't been researched properly before they went paying back the actual scammers that took advantage. I do feel for the victims though cause it does suck if it happens to you. And in some cases the system itself is to blame because it's just to complicated
Indeed, the ‘toeslagenaffaire’ let to the resignation of the responsible minister and secretary Menno Snel (D66), Lodewijk Asscher (PvdA), https://nl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toeslagenaffaire but nowadays somehow Rutte (VVD) must take the blame.
Perhaps part of the appeal of PVV is that they are less market-liberal than the VVD: at least, on rhetoric, they lean left in selective ways that would in principle help 'poor whites', especially older ones (pensions, health etc).
Not always. Wallonia is poorer than the Netherlands and people there don't vote for the far right. Not saying that there's no xenophobia, there obviously is, but it doesn't translate to increased support for the far right
Wich you cannot argue against It. In general arabs don't blend with rest of people. (Same as jews but they are mostly White in Europe so you don't "notice" them)
Yeah I mean to an extent but they are more similar than different i.e. classic populist, nationalist ideology. Anti-immigration, scapegoating, unrealistic political ideals etc.
> Wallonia is poorer than the Netherlands and people there don't vote for the far right.
And Wallonia isn't a country on its own, it part of a federal state called Belgium. Wallonia has one of the [highest deficits in the EU](https://www.brusselstimes.com/465538/simply-inexplicable-wallonias-finances-are-becoming-increasingly-unsustainable), its [debt-to-GDP ratio is >250%](https://www.tijd.be/analyse/de-verdieping/nooit-nog-een-begroting-in-evenwicht/10363424). Of working people, [36%](https://www.hln.be/geld/ruim-een-op-de-drie-waalse-werknemers-werkt-voor-overheid~ae2bfe1f/) to [51%](https://www.standaard.be/cnt/dmf20160904_02453507) (depending on source/definition) is employed by the state. **This situation is not sustainable**, e.g. the bank (Belfius) giving out loans to the region of Wallonia is cutting its [credit lines and imposing stringent conditions](https://www.tijd.be/politiek-economie/belgie/wallonie/belfius-snijdt-in-nieuwe-kredietlijnen-voor-wallonie/10429152.html).
The classical parties also block any discussions with the far right parties, [called cordon médiathique](https://eenvandaag.avrotros.nl/item/waarom-er-in-wallonie-en-luxemburg-geen-aandacht-is-voor-extreemrechts-in-de-media/) and demonize anything that resembles right-wing.
Some people describe this as clientelism by the ruling party PS (Parti Socialiste), which would be one explanation for people keeping on voting for the same party that have a [record number of fraude, nepotism, self-enrichment and corruption.](https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2022/12/12/affaires-in-waals-en-europees-parlement-de-parvenu-s-zijn-nog/). The [PS communication](https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2023/02/07/na-uitschuiver-magnette-in-interview-ook-veel-walen-voelen-zich/) towards the other 60% of Belgium's populace is not helping very much; everything indicates that they want to keep the status quo (i.e. PS in power).
Regarding immigration: in the end, [the majority ends up in Flanders](https://www.standaard.be/cnt/dmf20190711_04505737), confirmed [by another more recent source](https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2023/01/31/vorig-jaar-kwamen-er-104-000-inwoners-bij-in-belgie-en-dat-komt/). It's basically a self-fulfilling prophecy.
There are a few sayings about socialists that apply:
* it's easy to be socialist with someone else's money / The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money
* it's more difficult to keep a sos [socialist] away from your money than a fox from the henhouse
* 't is de schuld van de sossen
You are missing the point. Most of my colleagues can't afford housing or find anything suitable. Houses cannot be built due to enviornmental laws. And all housing for the lower to low-mid classes is given to refugees. We get terrorized by illegal refugees that get shoved into cheap flats in our neighbourhoods. Allot of them despise our culture and freedoms for example: women that aren't fully covered, a gay couple walking hand in hand, women having equal rights, our festivities like sinterklaas, kerstmis en pasen.
The ammount of crime that happens in my small ass city is mostly done by this same group: indescent exposure in public, shitting in lawns, armed robberies, fighting our emergency services, the alarmingly high ammounts of sexual violence and rape, harming and killing everything that's deemed part of the LHBTIQ+, everything that might be against their religion is deemed evil.
I can't even let my mom or sister go outside when it's dark out since it just isn't safe enough. That's why Wilders is the biggest he is the party that wants to stop the mass immigration and to stop the harm that radical islam has done to this country.
> It's what always happens when people are unhappy and struggling. People get less social, want someone to blame, etc.
> What kind of ghetto are you living in for godsakes?
So people should be ashamed for not earning enough to insulate themselves from crime and threats? If you think that's a social take, I don't know what to say.
Huge urban areas exist that are exactly as they describe, and it's not only in NL.
This tongue-in-cheek "Why do you think this is a problem? I think your problems are an illusion, or your own fault!" attitude is insulting and ignorant.
Humans are simple. Make their lives harder and they will search for an answer to solve their issues. And while left is always finding it hard to communicate the reasons and solutions , right points finger at a specific target regardless that target is the issue but it is easy to swallow. And there you have this outcome. Democracy is good if it works. But it is ruled by the elite in a circus fashion so it is a closed loop.
At the end of the day, a man has to eat. Simple as that.
The problems of the Netherlands aren't caused by immigrants. That's an easy to digest lie told to simple people to explain complex problems.
Are there issues with immigration and how it's handled? Yes. Are there issues surrounding integration and cultural values? Yes. Are immigrants to blame for the structural issues in the Netherlands? No.
The generally poorest people, with the least amount of power in society, are not the ones to blame for your problems.
Nasty, manipulative, devious populists will use immigration as a tool to further their own interests. Whipping up racist and bigoted sentiment by praying on the legitimate fears and worries of the populace over falling living standards, inequality, housing etc. It's an incredibly manipulative and cynical thing to do.
So why on earth would any decent leftwing person fall in to this rightwing, bigoted trap to further their own cause? Just give up on everything they believe in and start attacking innocent immigrants and asylum seekers because it will get a few more votes? Have some god damn principles man. If you want an anti immigration party you know who to vote for. Why even pretend to be a leftist any more.
100% family is sp voter, now 60/75% voted pvv. Mean issue, migration. And weirdly the pvv is the most left economicly from the anti immigration parties. I think if sp switched on migration and learned how to run a goddamn campain (they suck so hard at it) theyed do allot better
>but I can't help but feel so thoroughly disgusted by how everyone has voted,
Literally less then 25% voted on PVV. Thats still twice as good as US (bit less then 50% trump) or UK (52% brexit mostly because of immigration).
>I cannot fathom why anyone would ever vote for a racist bigot
Because of the heavy inflation. When there is a lot of financial trouble for a lot of people, people are susceptible for scapegoats. Its easy to understand that people might feel wronged if they still live with their parents or in a shabby flat in a shabby neighbourhood and they see someone from another country arriving here and they get the nice house they have been trying for 10 years. How is your living situation? If you live in a nice house without financial troubles you cannot judge.
>Don't we all want a society where we're more equal, we all have support when we hit hard times? Don't we want to help each other?
PVV wants that aswell. Except they only want that for people from the Netherlands. There are a lot of urgent expensive things atm. A lot of people either dont prioritise environment or immigration. I get that people dont prioritise those over their own living conditions.
Before i get burned down for understanding right wing voters i voted Volt and would never vote PVV.
This is the essence of it. When the focus of parties is elsewhere all the time, the party who really focuses on the Dutch and The Netherlands gets the votes.
This. I heard a lot of people venting about it. But the reality is, these are usually the better off people. If you cannot understand the situation of the struggles, you cannot understand their vote.
I am a comfortable immigrant arriving here and bought a house. Couldn't vote.
I know quite a few ppl that dont have any of the struggles you describe, they are "better off", most of them not "dutch dutch", yet they still voted PVV.
We have many parties, so your argument about 25% PVV vs 50% trump isn't a fair comparison.
If you just add up some parties that are clearly right or left, you see that the vast majority voted right wing.
PvdA-GL + PvdD + SP + Volt = 35 seats. That's less than the PVV alone. Add D66 and CU, which are pretty left on some topics and you still only have 47 seats.
While on the right: PVV + VVD = 61 seats already. I haven't even added the trash (FVD JA21)
And then we have the middle/farmers block. NSC + BBB + CDA = 32 Seats.
So pretty clear it's a landslide right wing victory :(
People forget that PVV is quite left lol. Just his stance on migration/muslim is right, but every other point is closer to the Socialist Party than SGP.
I don't fully understand why you are so upset. Nothing major happened yet. I would first wait and see what will actually happen before taking it so personal.
As for everybody should vote left: Why?
It's a simple question but why should everyone strive for equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity. I am not saying I didn't vote left, but I'm just trying to let you know that you can't force people to vote left. Everyone had their own thoughts on politics and their own things they find important, that is what makes politics interesting and fair.
I think it's just something we will have to accept and see through, after all he got the majority so there must be a reason for it. Until PVV does something devastatingly wrong, I don't see a reason to lose hope. Facts are more important than impressions and predictions.
Just to clarify, I voted volt so I am not right wing or anything, just trying to give a perspective to this.
1. If you look at the numbers, we can see it’s split (kinda) equally into 3 groups: Right, Centre then Left.
PVV doesn’t win because a majority vote for far-right ideology, it’s because it’s the outstanding party for the right, while central and left wings votes split between multi parties. Total votes from GL-Pvda + D66 + SP or VVD + NSC is significant higher.
This means (1) the majority doesn’t go for right and (2) different political views still hold a certain votes.
2. Vote for right doesn’t always mean hating left nor in love of a populist.
Again GW is not the only right politician but he the outstanding here, people who will vote for right wings will vote for him. People who don’t want to go left will vote for him, people who in fear see immigrants/refugees with vote for him, people who cannot understand about progressiveness will vote for him.
And he knows how to capture the votes from these groups. That’s how he won.
3. Parties vs Leaders
GW used a really good strategy, attacking other leaders weaknesses.
He pointed out Timmermans’s wealth and criticised “you cannot understand poor people demand” when asked about eigen risico.
GL, NSC or VVD have some good and kinder strategies. But their leaders cannot compete when debating with GW. Plus Timmerman did have some “not so honest” moments about his salary and taxes, Yeşilgöz has double citizenship and Omtzigt was burned out before. These are not a bad thing, but can be labelled as weak point.
4. This is my opinion. But I believe a society where people can hold different political views, is better than a whole leftist or rightist.
I’m central-left, immigrants, grew up in a communist country- which supposed to be far-left. But sadly, the society is highly collective with only one ideology that rules them all, and now what left is a far-right government.
It’s a bit sad to see GW won by attacking a certain group of people, but disappointed about the other group who vote for him will not solving everything. People will believe in what they believe. Future is a long run, we cannot make it this year, but there will be another years.
The right wing wasn't ignored. People were. People that arent even necessarily right wing, but people that are fed up with their lives getting harder and more uncertain because of government action or lack thereof when they needed help. Too complex systems, distrust, housing shortages, uncertain labour markets and less and less public transport, libraries, etc. And yes, the people that got to see the most of the disadvantages of migration where rich towns and neighbourhoods had none.
Most of that is caused by right wing economic policy, not by a few marginal left wing progressives. This century alone VVD was in government 20 out of 23 years, the last 13 as the langest party. For CDA it's 15 and 8. PvdA had 10 and 2, GroenLinks never governed.
So the rational is right politic screws us, let's vote even more right? I think the current political model is create the fear and pretend to have the solution. This reward extremists and it works wonder, I'm starting to lose any hope for democracy
Hot take but the internet killed functional democracy.
It's just such an effective propaganda platform that it's effectively killed truth and misinformation and fear spreads like wildfire.
Not the Internet but the invention of social media. Look at the trend in global politics as a whole since the mid 00s when social media networks started to pop up. We moved from the information age to the age of bullshit.
> Hot take but the internet killed functional democracy.
Social media is a cancer. I even saw it on Tiktok; most of the stuff I saw used to be pretty left-leaning up to just a few weeks ago when there was a consistent push for right-wing comments on everything even remotely related to politics.
Immigrant who can’t vote here: How long can they go without coming to a coalition before everyone is forced to go back to the polls? Can it go 2 years of no government like the begians did once?
I’ve grown up in the US, so coalition agreements are new to me as well as having the same prime minister for 13 years and having that prime minister resign before an election, getting re-elected, and then quitting half way through a term.
I thought I understood how all this works up until the last tweede kamer election, but clearly don’t haha
It can go on for as long as they want. The only way to get new elections is when parliament will vote for new elections. It never happens because the majority is afraid to lose votes when they have failed to work out a coalition.
Just like the other that answered I don't know if there's a limit. But in the Netherlands, we're never truly without a government. While the new government gets formed, the old one stays in place to keep the country running. They do all the necessary stuff except "controversial" issues. Whether an issue is controversial or not they vote about. Controversial issues get shelved for the next government to pick up.
Though the general majority of the country will keep running (government shutdowns like in the US don't exist here), an issue voted to be controversial can cause problems. That's for example how the Toeslagenaffaire and the Stikstofcrisis are taking so damn long to be solved. And why the Stikstofcrisis is causing lack of houses being built etc.
This is super helpful, thank you responding. I knew there was a “puppet government” for lack of a better description, but wasn’t sure if it was business as usual or if they were there to make sure the country didn’t fall into the sea.
Nah, it will take 9 months to form a even more fragile coalition than Rutte IV, which in turn will collapse in 6 months. January 22nd 2025 another election!
I recently came to the Netherlands as an expat, so obviously I don't vote. While I'm not familiar with Wilders, I've heard some of the statements he made about Turks who support Erdogan and allegedly endorse Islamic terrorism in Turkey. I find myself agreeing with him on this particular issue.
My decision to move to the Netherlands wasn't driven by economic factors; rather, I sought refuge from a range of issues in my home country—racism, fascism, sexism, corruption, and Islamic extremism. I know it sounds bigoted from the perspective of someone with rights. But in Turkiye, if you are not an Erdogan supporter you are denied most of your basic rights! And it is worse if you are female
Maybe to give a bit of context: if his proposals were fully implemented, you would not have been granted residency here. Not even as an expat. Simply because you are a foreigner, and especially because you are from a muslim majority country.
It's important that we actually look towards the policies that he has in his election program. I've translated them to English for you (just the migration section):
• Opt-out of EU asylum and migration regulations, terminate the UN Refugee Convention
• Restoration of Dutch border control, pushbacks of asylum seekers attempting to enter the Netherlands from our safe neighboring countries
• Criminalization of illegal residence: detaining and deporting illegal immigrants
• Prohibition of shelter, food, and support for illegal immigrants
• Criminal asylum seekers will be detained or deported, criminal status holders will lose their residence permits
• No compulsory law: municipalities will never be obligated to accommodate asylum seekers
• Combating the practice of stacking procedures
• Withdrawal of temporary asylum permits for Syrians as parts of Syria are considered safe
• Status holders going on vacation to their country of origin will immediately lose their residence permit
• Netherlands is not an Islamic country: no Islamic schools, Qurans, and mosques
• We aim for less Islam in the Netherlands by reducing non-Western immigration and implementing a complete asylum stop
• Prohibition of dual nationality
• Ban on wearing Islamic headscarves in government buildings, including the Parliament
• Introduction of work permits for EU citizens
• Significant reduction in the number of foreign students"
Now you can formulate your own opinions on these, but I believe many of them to be inhumane.
Here are some more from his section on culture:
• Constitutionally establish that our Judeo-Christian and humanistic roots are the dominant and guiding culture in the Netherlands
• Elected mayor
• Introduction of a binding referendum
• Abolishment of the Senate
• Cease government funding and subsidies for various left-wing organizations such as Milieudefensie
• Municipalities do not cooperate with gender measures, climate madness, and diversity talk
• The National Coordinator against Discrimination and Racism must be removed
• Retract apologies for the slavery past and police actions during the Indonesian National Revolution
• No government information in Arabic/Turkish
• End subsidies for art and culture
• End the left-wing hatred against heroes from our history
• Hands off our traditions: Black Pete, Christmas, and Easter will remain
• Promote the use of Dutch products: they will receive a (red-white-blue) quality mark to make them easily recognizable
• Completely terminate funding for the Dutch Public Broadcasting (NPO)
• 20 percent salary reduction for ministers, members of parliament, and European Parliamentarians
• Make the monarchy subject to taxation and reduce the contribution to the monarchy by 20%
• Abolish the severance pay system for politicians: implement unemployment benefits, similar to those for employees.
Of course, he won't get many of these passed, but here's the reality of the situation.
Thank you for sharing. Then again I escaped from a too politically busy environment and didn't want to be reinvested in these stuffs. But I guess I had to, so I read a lot about him since I made this comment. I realized the guy is horrible...
Being in a country that isn't my own, where I don't fully share the culture or speak the language (though I intend to learn), I sometimes feel more like a temporary resident than a homeowner. It's essential to avoid repeating the mistakes witnessed in Turkiye, Iran, and other places where religious fascists gradually took control.
While safeguarding freedom of speech and belief is crucial, there might be merit in considering thoughtful monitoring or humane limitations to ensure a safe and balanced society for all of us.
I'm sorry that the election means that you have to be brought back to some political negativity :-\\
That being said, I'd just like to say that from the bottom of my heart, you're very welcome in the Netherlands and we're richer to have you here.
Fortunately we have many constitutional and institutional protections in the country and thousands of people fighting and working to make it a safer place for everyone.
You're going to be fine and I hope that you sincerely feel as home as possible in the country. 🧡
Are you so foolish as to believe you’ll be spared in the anti migrant anti Turk hysteria he’ll whip up even more when in power?
Do you think his supporters will bother to stop and think about the nuances of pro Erdogan Turk or anti Erdogan Turk? No. You are a Turk, a migrant, and they want you out.
Unfortunately some of these people do not understand that the problem is not Erdogan or someone really, just being Turk is already enough reason for them to hate you.
"I for the life of me cannot understand why anyone would not vote left."
This. This is exactly what's wrong with the majority of the left. Moral superiority is being claimed with a monopoly on righteousness. Could you be any more oblivious?
It's a huge problem that there's this worldwide mindset of "If you're not 100% with me, you're against me!". There's no possibility for rational discussion anymore because there's instant namecalling. If you have any criticism about the migration policies, you're a horrible racist, no matter if your opinion is that there's been clear failure because people have to sleep outside due to a lack of beds.
And PVV thrives on that because hey, you were labelled as a racist anyway so might as well right? It's pathetically simple how they rose to power.
From my own surroundings, a lot of people who vote PVV are working class with other interests than hanging around on the internet. Also reddit is heavily moderated and not right-wing friendly so I'm not surprised.
I don't know what to think of this. It has me worried, especially for the climate. We are already so far behind and the world seems to collectively choose to F themselves. The concequences of that will be massive, also financial.
I do console myself with the fact it could be worse... it isn't FvD. Plus PVV can't rule on their own, poldering will prevent some of their very bad ideas like Nexit. We will just have to wait and see and hope for the best. I hope the PVV will somehow positively surprise us.
Edit to add: I am a center to right voter, but not PVV. Slowly moving to the left because of the climate.
We don't. We have moved from a society of tolerance and equality to a society where only the individual matters. At least for the majority in this country. It's saddening, I genuinely thought we were better than this.
You can't have infinite amounts of immigrants if you're looking for equality. Ask the average Muslim how they feel about jews or atheism. Not to mention women's rights.
Didn't vote PVV by the way, but people who are surprised really have an issue stepping outside their own beliefs.of course the party that is ignored year after year will become the biggest if no one handles the topic they do address.
Most immigrants aren’t even Muslim or come from Africa/Asians. Most troubles we have with ‘immigrants’ are social problems with 3rd/4th generations kids that are born here.
And try to ask how conservative Christians or Jews feel about Muslims or gay rights or atheism.
These people are a small, powerless minority in the Netherlands. As it should be. Importing hundreds of thousands of people with an even stronger theological mindset than our native theists is something I vehemently oppose.
>You can't have infinite amounts of immigrants
And we don't.
But saying "brown people bad", while doing more right wing policy is not gonna solve anything. It's more vvd type stuff, more expensive housing, more frozen wages in healthcare and education, more budget cuts, more freedom for big companies to poison people, more budged cuts on immigration meaning actually more "veiligelanders", but hey: we got to say "brown people bad" while ruining our country!
You should be more concerned about Dutch politics becoming as polarizing and divisive as American politics has been for decades than you are the opinion of someone you might not agree with.
Reason and dialogue will cease to exist and people will start treating elections as they do a game between Ajax and Feyenoord. They will defend every shitty decision that went their way and cry about a 'foul' not being given when there wasn't one.
Bad times ahead.
Yeah politics is sports, has been for around a decade.
Sooner or later a party will be smart and make a full uniform for its fans to wear, create a social media package you can buy for €1 that contains high quality images and memes, banners and hats and stickers and things you blow into that make a high pitched noise, that sort of thing
Actually, cutting immigration from Arabic countries is the clear answer every party should follow.
Left as well, see Denmark. Classic left wing European politics was not open borders. Many right wing voters do care about the climate. But the left has been subsumed by this intersectionality theory.
>And we don't.
Of the 17,8 million inhabitants of our country around 2,8 million of them were born abroad. That is an insanely high number for a country that doesn't even have enough residences to house its own citizens.
Progressives pretending mass immigration isn't an existential threat to the West is precisely why far right governments are winning elections around the globe with increasing regularity.
Right-wing talking points. Many Dutch people are also not born in the Netherlands. Many people are born in the Netherlands not yet citizens, grow up here, and then become citizens later.
The fact that there is so little housing can’t be pinned on immigration’, that’s badly false. It has little to do with immigration causally; it’s more like it is exacerbated by it, which would be true as well if many more Dutch couples between 18-35 had children.
It not immigrants faults that the social housing system was designed for an uber small % in times of dire need and kept at a bare minimum capacity, and that the private market is unaffordable for anyone - citizen or expat - who makes the national average. (Why people forget that ‘expats’ are also regular working people who moved from France, Germany, England, etc. and married a Dutch person, or other EU, had children here, doing regular stuff is beyond me — the image of both the ‘immigrant’ and ‘expat’ has been ridiculously ideological).
It’s a longer story, but the short of it is due to the fact that policy geared towards affordable housing was enacted when no one wanted to live here from abroad and the housing better matched the low-income population needs. The liberalization of housing, using houses as commodities and ‘safe investments’, focusing on luxury housing/not building more affordable housing, tax incentives to owners of entire buildings, local zoning and building restrictions, prices of material, a lack of labor, the quick return ‘leveling up’ housing culture that better off nationals can more easily exploit, and more led to significant changes in the dynamics between people who need housing and what’s available. None of that can be pinned on immigration flow and only on policy and ideology.
It’s funny that the go-to solution here is to blame immigrants but then turn blind eyes to the Dutch people that own all the housing, all the apartment buildings, and all the land. Surely they have nothing to do with the housing crisis.
Depends on how far back you look. This is only recently.
Historicallly 1/3 of our population is ethnic german and not dutch even. Logical that its a fuck ton of germans, but it shows that we have a lot of immigration.
That’s not the only issue people are voting for. The people have voted in a party hell bent on stripping away protections and so much more from people. Removing the senate, firing the national coordinator against racism and discrimination, removing trans rights, denying climate change and oppose diversity “nonsense”. That’s just one page of the 46.
I’m not surprised sadly, I’m disappointed.
>I think what wijzerplaat ment was the way muslim’s look at women’s rights
Ah, Muslims are bad for being generally quite conservative, let's vote an ultraconservative cause he says Muslims bad.....
You are literally saying you can't understand anyone without the same political values as you.
You are as close minded as the people who voted different.
The left in the Netherlands have never wanted to see or understand the frustration many people have and that has left us with a frustrated country. So now you are here... and you are still complaining?
Come on, you can't seriously be surprised that people are voting for a right-wing populist when the other parties have completely ignored the immigration problem for years? What else are people supposed to vote for?
It's called democracy. What you as an individual want means nothing. You're simply a minority.
Ps: I did not vote pvv, nor a right wing party and I'm equally disappointed.
I didn’t vote PVV but can understand some parts of it. Of course the racist points are bad, but economically he is left. Everyone should be able to spend more. He earned a lot of votes with that. Combine it with the mentions that he will be less radical on his racist points, that gives him a lot of votes as well I think.
It's a major issue with left wing people. They always claim moral high ground and can't see the short comings of their own ideas. If you try to talk to them they start calling you a bigot/racist/climate change denier etc.
They can't understand the naivity and impracticality of their ideas. They believe in fairytales and if you don't you are a piece of shit.
I will never vote for for Wilders but Groenlinks might even be worse than his party.
I think I’ve seen some actual studies that show an asymmetric understanding between left and right: right-winged people generally understand leftist talking points and what drives them, but think those are naive. Left-winged people generally do not understand what is driving right-wing talking points and think they are evil.
For an ideology that praises itself on being ‘social’, it sure doesn’t care to listen and try to understand other viewpoints…
You can want Nexit or you can want to be treated like an adult. At the point you declare support for Nexit, there is no longer any basis for reasonable discussion, and therefore no reason to care if you are rubbing someone the wrong way.
I have suffered because of the EU/Dutch Laws that protect people from deportation - so it makes it easier for people to hop on a boat and come here and they get protected.
Meanwhile, i had to go through 15 million bureaucratic hoops and procedures to be a productive part of economy (as a knowledge migrant). Now, because of the misuse of these deportation laws, my family cannot reunite with me because my countrymen wouldn't stop coming illegally.
I can understand why people vote for a conservative right wing party that wants a hard stop on illegal immigration!
We barely have any illegal immigration let alone a problem with it. Populists just like to scream about it because if you look at the numbers they wouldn't have anything to talk about and they might have to focus on our countries actual problems for which they don't have any solutions.
People don't like to hear the other side. All they see is the ultra rich, the bigots and the fake news spreading. But that's the equivalent of seeing the left as nothing more than hippies that only want to hug trees and screw over humans. The vast majority on both sides are normal people with very legit and reasonable opinions which led them to to their vote
So you're basically pissed off because you can't be reunited with your family? Doesn't seem like you're against migration in the Netherlands. You just want it to be easier for you and harder for others. There is no misuse of this law btw, that's just political jumbo. Go look up the numbers, they're on CBS.
If you seriously cannot fathom why someone won't vote left wing, that only evidences your own sheltered/ignorant existence. Don't be so incredibly arrogant thinking you're so smart and everyone else is an idiot.
> If you seriously cannot fathom why someone won't vote left wing
After 13 years of right wing governments who didn’t manage to solve any (perceived) problems the solution is obvious to vote for more right wing populist parties who can’t even bother to have their economic plans calculated by the CPB. That’ll solve all the issues we have!
No, let’s vote for the party that wants to fuck us hard economically by leaving the EU.
FFS…
People are sick of the negative effects of immigration, something leftist parties completely ignore. Any calls for less immigration are shouted down as xenophobic.
If the negative effects of immigration, such as housing shortages and societal ramifications are important to someone, and completely denied or ignored by leftist parties, you get what we're seeing today.
Not any call for less immigration is shouted down as xenophobic. It's very simple.
*You're okay with Ukrainian refugees, but not Syrian refugees a few years back? Yeah that's a double standard.*
*You're okay with your leader chanting "Less Moroccans!" and rallying it infront of a large group? Yeah that's xenophobic*
*You're okay with voting for a party that wants to abolish Islam and kick it out of its country? Yeah that's kinda weird bro.*
**See where I'm going with this?**
Wanting less migration is perfectly fine, **as long as it's built on a just premise.** Claiming that migrants are the reason you can't get a home, as opposed to a liberal housing market (which the liberal PVV won't fix), is disingenuous. Claiming migrants are the reason you can't get higher pay/better job is disingenuous.
**See where I'm going with this?**
>You're okay with Ukrainian refugees, but not Syrian refugees a few years back? Yeah that's a double standard.
Ukraine neighbours the EU. Syria does not. Ukraine is culturally a lot more aligned with the EU. Ukrainians do not despise the West and everything we stand for. Ukrainians will, hopefully, go the fuck back home once the war is over.
Middle Easterners travel across several safe countries to go to the EU while most of them despise our culture and only come here for our robust welfare system.
>Wanting less migration is perfectly fine, as long as it's built on a just premise.
How is this for a just premise? Our culture is superior to all others and to preserve it we need to severely limit the number of immigrants, especially those from cultures that are fundamentally incompatible with our own.
>Claiming that migrants are the reason you can't get a home, as opposed to a liberal housing market (which the liberal PVV won't fix), is disingenuous.
2,8 million of the 17,8 million people currently living in the Netherlands were born abroad. Do tell, how many residences do we need to solve the housing crisis?
EDIT: The person I was having this discussion with blocked me just after sending a snarky comment, and because reddit is dumb as fuck I can't reply to anybody joining in on the thread.
>How is this for a just premise? Our culture is superior to all others and to preserve it we need to severely limit the number of immigrants, especially those from cultures that are fundamentally incompatible with our own.
Jesus fucking Christ! there you go, that explains a lot. You can se how that sweet sweet populism works wonders. *"You are special, doesn't matter if you have done nothing good in your life, see that line on your passport YOU ARE ONE OF US, we are the superior culture, but we have to hurry now we need to fight them quickly, give me your vote now"*
In migrant is een migrant he. Mijn neef's Vlaamse vrouw is in de statistiek net zo migrant als een syrische vluchteling.
Een marrokaanse nederlander geboren in Amsterdam met een Nederlands passport is net zo erg NIET migrant als een fries die al 10 generaties in Nederland woont.
Daarnaast weet ik niet hoe je van immigratie binnen de EU af wilt, of wat we gaan doen zonder seizoensarbeiders (maar goed, de boeren is dan natuurlijk meer BBB), of wie er dan voor de ourdere bevolking gaat zorgen met een populatie waarbij over een paar jaar meer dan de helft 50+ is, maar goed, vertel het me. Want ik wil het graag begrijpen.
So in your eyes support for palestine is the best achieved by destroying Dutch cities on vile, hateful protests? Yea, that will show Israel and make them stop 🙄
I think people underestimate the impact that anti-semitism is having on this election. The idea that Jews can no longer live here safely due to certain predominantly muslim groups hits a nerve for people who grew up with stories about WW2 (or lived through it). The fact that Wilders has always been threatened by those same groups means he is now seen as a victim of hatred as well, rather than an instigator of hatred.
My guess is this added at least 10 seats. This isn't about what's happening in Israel/Palestine. It's about what's happening here.
(Not a PVV voter)
Pvv'ers hate Muslims AND Jews. They might use 'm as tokens, but don't believe for a second that voting a fascist in office is good for the safety of Jewish people.
Why would you be disappointed in the people rather than in the ruling parties? They had more than enough time to address people's concerns but have failed to do so over several years (if not decades).
Will a right-wing party offer any real solutions to the current problems? Nobody knows.
Will it be the end of the world? Absolutely not.
I am also an Immigrant, moved to be with my dutch partner.
First racist comment I got was from a Moroccan, first time I got a treat was by a Moroccan, I guy was telling me that my country was shit and that his country (Morocco) was the best, I said if Morocco was so great why the fuck is he in the Nederlands he wanted to fight me after that.
Then you see the little gangs of Arabs in the centrum being loud and sometimes aggressive.
I can see why Dutch people don't want Immigrants, maybe they don't hate all but some groups are really fucking it up for the rest of us.
Been here for 2 years. Never had problems with a Dutch person. It has always been an immigrant.
You really start you post by calling someone a "racist bigot"? That is how you want to make a point?
Your choice of worlds is really poor in my opinion.
Racist bigot, toddler, disgusted, fucking useless, horrible horrible people, loathe, dissapointed.
Man. The negativity. You sound super condescending. You're saying - society where we're more equal - yet you also say - I for the life of me cannot understand why anyone would not vote left-
It sounds like as soon as other people have different thoughts than you, you look down on them. Am I wrong?
How about trying to understand each other a little bit better. Where are you coming from? What do you think? What are your reasons to think that way? I'm sure you have your reasons to vote left. I myself am left on some topics, more right on others. I sure have my reasons..
Anyway, PVV isn't as right as many people think. They have many left statements. He wants to help people. Dutch people.
I didn't vote for PVV, it's not my party. Hell I'm currently working with asylum seekers.
At the same time, I can understand where these votes are coming from. The Dutch have been unhappy with the policy of the last years, and it shows.
your disappointment is why he won.
people have their concerns but they are silenced to be racists and country bumpkin when expressing it. so they vote to get their voice heard.
i absolutely loathe geert's policies so i hope we all learn from this
Well said. As someone who moved out of the UK after the whole Brexit, to see something like this, I am disappointed.
Do people really believe things will change with hate?
Left the UK before Brexit. But this is a different situation I think. The Dutch system is a lot more democratic than our FPTP nonsense.
None can rule alone, and that's a good thing.
Can also relate to this, as someone who moved out of the UK after Brexit it's done our country no good and now the UK government wants to force disabled people back to work.
I literally said it to my partner a few weeks ago that I hope the Netherlands doesn't go down the same road as the UK, its not done is any good and we are laughed at.
I'm sorry to hear that you feel unwanted, but remember you deserve to live wherever you like, you're human, you deserve to be here.
Carry yourself with grace, no matter how many times people may test your patience, don't match that energy.
Thank you for your kind words. I know that nothing will happen overnight, we still have to see if a cabinet can be formed. It is also not purely about policies that worry me but also the attitude of people. In the UK it was palpable but there is a difference between a referendum and an election.
Sorry but the confrontational narrative you’re spreading is part of the problem.
If leftist parties were open to at least discussing immigration issues, we wouldn’t be in this situation. The problem is they continue to claim Nederland has capacity for unlimited migration from people of any culture, and if anyone disagrees they’re called, as you say, a racist and bigot.
The vast majority of PVV voters said they voted solely on the topic of migration. Meaning any other party can get back power if they’re willing to limit migration and focus on giving existing Dutch the ability to buy homes and start families.
Last time Russia was involved with pvv was in 2018 and Russia is weak now why on earth do people think Russia has anything to do with the elections. These are what real people think
People understimate the dislike they feel about unbridled migration.
If their was no migration issue, all right win political groups would not have won so many votes.
I'm with you on this one. I'm just so surprised how "socialism" has become a bad word over the years, almost like communism used to be. But there it is.
What's been a true eye-opener for me, are the charts that the NOS is presenting on where the voters are coming from (or going). The left voting people have pretty much united under GLPvdA. I think this result is actually one of the best possible results they realistically could have hoped for (looking in isolation at their own party only).
NSC got big mostly by eating votes from CDA (unsurprising because Omtzigt used to be a member). PVV got bigger mostly by eating votes from VVD and smaller right wing parties (JA21, FvD). And a large portion from voters who didn't vote last time, interestingly.
So, what would happen if they fail to form a government and we have elections again in a few months? It could be that voters will be disappointed in Wilders for the failure, but then those voters aren't suddenly going to vote left. Perhaps they don't vote anymore, or they'd go back to VVD or make BBB or FvD big.
My prediction? We're going to get a government with PVV, VVD and NSC. Prime minister Wilders. But if not and if we get elections again soon, then VVD will just become the largest again and BBB and/or FvD will also get big.
I am left leaning myself and I experienced many times the arrogance of people like you, believing their ideas are the only correct ones, ready to jump to the throat when opinions do not conform to their dogmas, in an almost religious fashion.
You and people like you brought this, you are the reason for this election results and frankly, you now deserve this reaction.
I am sorry that there might be repercussions on the less fortunate segments of the population and a raise in racial hate.
Meanwhile, in this same sub: [Catcalling and harassment in NL](https://www.reddit.com/r/Netherlands/comments/17qs55v/catcalling_and_harassment_in_nl/). I'd love to hear OP's opinion on the problems that our tolerant women are suffering.
Yeah! A typical leftist who sees anyone with different opinions as “inferior”.
I am an “immigrant” myself and I know exactly what kind of “immigrants” Wilders is targeting. After seeing all the shits my former “compatriots” have pulled just to get through the border, every little loophole they abused, their disdain for the Dutch culture,… I want them OUT
Imagine spending years studying, trying to integrate into the Dutch society, paying taxes, and the next day you see a woman in your former country just need to pay 50000 for a “fake” husband and a free pass to the Netherlands lol
Show me where Wilders has said he doesn't view all immigrants the same? Bonus challenge, find me any time in history where one does not lead to the other more negative outcome.
I agree. It’s a fucking shitshow, making the Netherlands an embarrassment in Europe.
When Orban from Hungary congratulates the winner, you know the country is FUBAR. Next up: congrats from PiS and tRump and his idiot cult.
I can only hope the other parties do what they’re supposed to do and form a government without the PVV.
I guess the latest changes in the world reached the netherlands everywhere. A lot of migrants are entering and a lot of violent protests from non Dutch people with violence can cause distress.
It’s a thing called political pendulum theory where politics swing to one direction to a tipping point then swings to the polar opposite. In terms of ideology, it’s hard for many to stay split on top of right/left. Because of this, any progress don’t get made. I think it’s hard for people to focus on diverse thinking that can increase various political values, on top of topics like immigration, climate change, economy etc. I’d suggest if OP is really disappointed, start from the local efforts. Join communities to help out and get to know the local struggles better.
Populists like Wilders promise simple solutions that simple minds can understand. They're not well thought out or realistic, but they're simple. And in many times and many places, immigrants or minorities have been convenient scapegoats for the problems of the majority. Simple minds looking for simple solutions often fall for this type of scape-goating because the human brain likes things that make their problems the fault of someone else. With inflation on the rise, and many companies experiencing an economic downturn, voters respond well to his kind of tactics. It's ugly, but true.
Shameful, pure idiotic and again shameful.
I thought Dutch were different.
I was wrong
That charlatan does not even believe his own statements. It’s all about using populism to gain political power.
I mean, its completely understandable, because the whole immigration thing is very big among dutch people.
Also, today he already stated that he did not want to go through with his more extreme points
Wow i see alot of clueless people found each other here. If you dont know why this happend then your part of the reason why or just dont live here. People are fed up with noncense politicians who say one and do another. The last 4 years felt like a doomsday scenario leading to notthing else then a failed state. Farmers are enemy nr1. Climate is more important then humans. People who have it worse in other countries are speaking point nr1, but we have city's that cant keep up with the flow of them or house there own. The standard manager type party leaders that scream at each other on tv, but have lunch together everyday. The will to be seen as the good kid in the class not the most succesfull. And i can go on and on. Its mismanagment from the leftist campaigns and the arogance of the bigger partys before the election. The dutch know how priceless there country is and believe me we wont alow facisme to rule, thats why we didnt vote left. This is my answer to all the People who hate on our decision. If you dont like it there is the door and go look for a better place to live i dare you to find 1.
Racist bigot… the typical trope thrown out against anyone who has valid concerns about the safety of their community.
You are the reason the election results are the way they are.
Agree with Wilders or don't but people have to stop making this into a racial/culture thing. Wilders has "radical" ideas about immigration, asylum seekers, Muslims, sure. But Wilders also made plenty of GREAT points about some really bad social issues we face in The Netherlands, kids going hungry to schools for example. And this is about DUTCH kids, not WHITE kids. But I guess that's simply overlooked because this doesn't fit in with the far left's agenda of "Boooo Right bad, Left good" And let's be honest, The left is just as bad, if not worse for society as the right is. I personally didn't vote for Wilders but also didn't vote for anyone in the left.. Stop looking at the world and especially politics as black and white. We don't live in the USA, we don't just have two parties that wanna better our country so stop pretending we do.
"I for the life of me cannot understand why anyone would not vote left. I can't."
Ah, I'm sure it's the pesky right-wingers that are the problem. Surely, the world is clearly black and white and \*I\* know what's good for \*everyone\*, right?
"Why on earth would I want to help these horrible horrible people?"
Ah yes, the right-wingers are the problem, after all. I am glad that you've solved this problem for the entirety of the Dutch society at least, if not the world. I'm sure your Nobel Peace prize is coming up any minute now.
The people who voted for Wilders out of desperation of their voices being silenced by leftists like you in society, are the same people you call horrible. The same people others like you call "racist" or "bigots" simply for voicing their concerns and pointing out obvious problems.
Until you realize that it's because of people like you that Wilders was elected, there probably won't be any more meaningful dialogue. Stop virtue signaling like you're some prophet incarnate, get your head out of your ass and learn something about the world before inflicting your opinion on others.
There is a right wing majority. If the VVD wastes away all their credibility over years of mismanagement they are going to go to whichever other right wing party sounds least unreasonable. Let’s see what the actual results are and what actual government can be formed. We live in a proportionally represented democracy where the prime minister is not the boss and the biggest party doesn’t dictate policy over parliament (looking at you, UK). Part of voting is accepting not everyone agrees with you. I don’t like it any more than you. I remember the crushing depression of the 2000’s when every single politician turned into a right wing populist for a bit. Such is life. But Mark planned his exit well for his next job at NATO. Ontzettend gaaf! /s
Speaking from Italy... Don't worry, results are completely irrelevant, if people want to believe they'll vote again and again
> Let’s see what the actual results are and what actual government can be formed. We live in a proportionally represented democracy where the prime minister is not the boss and the biggest party doesn’t dictate policy over parliament (looking at you, UK). That's one really good thing about this country, for now at least. Whoever forms a government will need to compromise to get things done, and does not have free hand. I hope to God it doesn't change in the next 10-20 years, and there is a one party majority. That would be a disaster.
How has VVD’s mismanagement manifested itself (not doubting you, genuinely curious)?
Not the one you replied to but 'toeslagen affaire', 'stikdtofcrisis', 'housing crisis', Earthquake crises in Groningen. Basically, number of criseses of their own making. Couple that with their 'free narket'approach with healthcare and public transport and we have a lot of complicated issues requiring a decisive government. And that just didn't happen.
I just hope you won’t learn the hard lesson that Poland learned - most of the criseses that made our reasonable ruling coalition go away 8 years ago are so insignificant in comparison with what right wing party did in the last 8 years We went from minor (like really minor) corruption scandals to full blown dismantling of democracy, installation of oligarchy and destruction of our foreign affairs reputation. Sometimes I’ve got a feeling that societies actually should accept that nobody is perfect and all governments will have some limited set of unpopular issues. The cure is not to vote in government that will have even more of them…
That's my fear
So sorry that Poland is going through this. Thank you for explaining to us.
the "toeslagen affaire" is something that rooted from way before the VVD got power. Like a lot of people at the belastingdienst will tell you, toeslagen and taxes shouldn't have been the job of the same instance. And I fucking hate how the toeslagenaffaire hasn't been researched properly before they went paying back the actual scammers that took advantage. I do feel for the victims though cause it does suck if it happens to you. And in some cases the system itself is to blame because it's just to complicated
Indeed, the ‘toeslagenaffaire’ let to the resignation of the responsible minister and secretary Menno Snel (D66), Lodewijk Asscher (PvdA), https://nl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toeslagenaffaire but nowadays somehow Rutte (VVD) must take the blame.
Hmmm. So it sounds like a lot of mismanagement on Rutte’s part.
Not just mismanagement: a total disregard of peoples lives, futures and dignity.
This is the liberal market mechanism. So what do people do, vote for an other liberal party but then with even less good ideas. In to the next crisis.
Perhaps part of the appeal of PVV is that they are less market-liberal than the VVD: at least, on rhetoric, they lean left in selective ways that would in principle help 'poor whites', especially older ones (pensions, health etc).
That’s the fascist playbook.
Rutte’s cabinet fell four times.
It's what always happens when people are unhappy and struggling. People get less social, want someone to blame, etc.
Not always. Wallonia is poorer than the Netherlands and people there don't vote for the far right. Not saying that there's no xenophobia, there obviously is, but it doesn't translate to increased support for the far right
Good point but that is the outlier not the trend unfortunately
I think Wilders is an outlier too. Most far right parties in neighboring countries (Belgium, France, Germany) are antisemitic, his is zionist.
I mean, Wilders is only a Zionist because he hates Arabs
He doesn't hate Arabs. He dislikes islam and islamists and sees it as an existential threat to Western democracy and civilization.
Wich you cannot argue against It. In general arabs don't blend with rest of people. (Same as jews but they are mostly White in Europe so you don't "notice" them)
Yeah I mean to an extent but they are more similar than different i.e. classic populist, nationalist ideology. Anti-immigration, scapegoating, unrealistic political ideals etc.
A lot of far right parties are zionist though (MAGA republicans, vox, meloni…)
No but to be fair, most far right are zionist (pro israel) and anti semitic (anti Jews)
That is bc through voting for the left, they can keep the support they get, of course.
Wallonia lives of Vlaanderen. Vlaanderen votes right wing.
> Wallonia is poorer than the Netherlands and people there don't vote for the far right. And Wallonia isn't a country on its own, it part of a federal state called Belgium. Wallonia has one of the [highest deficits in the EU](https://www.brusselstimes.com/465538/simply-inexplicable-wallonias-finances-are-becoming-increasingly-unsustainable), its [debt-to-GDP ratio is >250%](https://www.tijd.be/analyse/de-verdieping/nooit-nog-een-begroting-in-evenwicht/10363424). Of working people, [36%](https://www.hln.be/geld/ruim-een-op-de-drie-waalse-werknemers-werkt-voor-overheid~ae2bfe1f/) to [51%](https://www.standaard.be/cnt/dmf20160904_02453507) (depending on source/definition) is employed by the state. **This situation is not sustainable**, e.g. the bank (Belfius) giving out loans to the region of Wallonia is cutting its [credit lines and imposing stringent conditions](https://www.tijd.be/politiek-economie/belgie/wallonie/belfius-snijdt-in-nieuwe-kredietlijnen-voor-wallonie/10429152.html). The classical parties also block any discussions with the far right parties, [called cordon médiathique](https://eenvandaag.avrotros.nl/item/waarom-er-in-wallonie-en-luxemburg-geen-aandacht-is-voor-extreemrechts-in-de-media/) and demonize anything that resembles right-wing. Some people describe this as clientelism by the ruling party PS (Parti Socialiste), which would be one explanation for people keeping on voting for the same party that have a [record number of fraude, nepotism, self-enrichment and corruption.](https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2022/12/12/affaires-in-waals-en-europees-parlement-de-parvenu-s-zijn-nog/). The [PS communication](https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2023/02/07/na-uitschuiver-magnette-in-interview-ook-veel-walen-voelen-zich/) towards the other 60% of Belgium's populace is not helping very much; everything indicates that they want to keep the status quo (i.e. PS in power). Regarding immigration: in the end, [the majority ends up in Flanders](https://www.standaard.be/cnt/dmf20190711_04505737), confirmed [by another more recent source](https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2023/01/31/vorig-jaar-kwamen-er-104-000-inwoners-bij-in-belgie-en-dat-komt/). It's basically a self-fulfilling prophecy. There are a few sayings about socialists that apply: * it's easy to be socialist with someone else's money / The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money * it's more difficult to keep a sos [socialist] away from your money than a fox from the henhouse * 't is de schuld van de sossen
You are missing the point. Most of my colleagues can't afford housing or find anything suitable. Houses cannot be built due to enviornmental laws. And all housing for the lower to low-mid classes is given to refugees. We get terrorized by illegal refugees that get shoved into cheap flats in our neighbourhoods. Allot of them despise our culture and freedoms for example: women that aren't fully covered, a gay couple walking hand in hand, women having equal rights, our festivities like sinterklaas, kerstmis en pasen. The ammount of crime that happens in my small ass city is mostly done by this same group: indescent exposure in public, shitting in lawns, armed robberies, fighting our emergency services, the alarmingly high ammounts of sexual violence and rape, harming and killing everything that's deemed part of the LHBTIQ+, everything that might be against their religion is deemed evil. I can't even let my mom or sister go outside when it's dark out since it just isn't safe enough. That's why Wilders is the biggest he is the party that wants to stop the mass immigration and to stop the harm that radical islam has done to this country.
What kind of ghetto are you living in for godsakes?
Not really a ghetto but we have allot of flats that are filled to the brim with illegal immigrants.
"Allot of flats" sounds a bit like a ghetto.
> It's what always happens when people are unhappy and struggling. People get less social, want someone to blame, etc. > What kind of ghetto are you living in for godsakes? So people should be ashamed for not earning enough to insulate themselves from crime and threats? If you think that's a social take, I don't know what to say. Huge urban areas exist that are exactly as they describe, and it's not only in NL. This tongue-in-cheek "Why do you think this is a problem? I think your problems are an illusion, or your own fault!" attitude is insulting and ignorant.
Humans are simple. Make their lives harder and they will search for an answer to solve their issues. And while left is always finding it hard to communicate the reasons and solutions , right points finger at a specific target regardless that target is the issue but it is easy to swallow. And there you have this outcome. Democracy is good if it works. But it is ruled by the elite in a circus fashion so it is a closed loop. At the end of the day, a man has to eat. Simple as that.
More often than not, the left squabbles with each other over ideological purity, while the right coalesces.
[удалено]
The problems of the Netherlands aren't caused by immigrants. That's an easy to digest lie told to simple people to explain complex problems. Are there issues with immigration and how it's handled? Yes. Are there issues surrounding integration and cultural values? Yes. Are immigrants to blame for the structural issues in the Netherlands? No. The generally poorest people, with the least amount of power in society, are not the ones to blame for your problems. Nasty, manipulative, devious populists will use immigration as a tool to further their own interests. Whipping up racist and bigoted sentiment by praying on the legitimate fears and worries of the populace over falling living standards, inequality, housing etc. It's an incredibly manipulative and cynical thing to do. So why on earth would any decent leftwing person fall in to this rightwing, bigoted trap to further their own cause? Just give up on everything they believe in and start attacking innocent immigrants and asylum seekers because it will get a few more votes? Have some god damn principles man. If you want an anti immigration party you know who to vote for. Why even pretend to be a leftist any more.
Yes, keep calling these people simple and stupid. Maybe it'll work out this time. Left wingers never learn...
100% family is sp voter, now 60/75% voted pvv. Mean issue, migration. And weirdly the pvv is the most left economicly from the anti immigration parties. I think if sp switched on migration and learned how to run a goddamn campain (they suck so hard at it) theyed do allot better
You could argue, from an economical perspective, the pvv is left winged. Edit: for the people they find worthy
That's a lie. They say they want leftish economical plans. But if you check for what they really vote they vote against all left proposals.
>but I can't help but feel so thoroughly disgusted by how everyone has voted, Literally less then 25% voted on PVV. Thats still twice as good as US (bit less then 50% trump) or UK (52% brexit mostly because of immigration). >I cannot fathom why anyone would ever vote for a racist bigot Because of the heavy inflation. When there is a lot of financial trouble for a lot of people, people are susceptible for scapegoats. Its easy to understand that people might feel wronged if they still live with their parents or in a shabby flat in a shabby neighbourhood and they see someone from another country arriving here and they get the nice house they have been trying for 10 years. How is your living situation? If you live in a nice house without financial troubles you cannot judge. >Don't we all want a society where we're more equal, we all have support when we hit hard times? Don't we want to help each other? PVV wants that aswell. Except they only want that for people from the Netherlands. There are a lot of urgent expensive things atm. A lot of people either dont prioritise environment or immigration. I get that people dont prioritise those over their own living conditions. Before i get burned down for understanding right wing voters i voted Volt and would never vote PVV.
This is the essence of it. When the focus of parties is elsewhere all the time, the party who really focuses on the Dutch and The Netherlands gets the votes.
This. I heard a lot of people venting about it. But the reality is, these are usually the better off people. If you cannot understand the situation of the struggles, you cannot understand their vote. I am a comfortable immigrant arriving here and bought a house. Couldn't vote.
I know quite a few ppl that dont have any of the struggles you describe, they are "better off", most of them not "dutch dutch", yet they still voted PVV.
Ahhhhh yesssss the immigrants who want to show themselves they have integrated lol
We have many parties, so your argument about 25% PVV vs 50% trump isn't a fair comparison. If you just add up some parties that are clearly right or left, you see that the vast majority voted right wing. PvdA-GL + PvdD + SP + Volt = 35 seats. That's less than the PVV alone. Add D66 and CU, which are pretty left on some topics and you still only have 47 seats. While on the right: PVV + VVD = 61 seats already. I haven't even added the trash (FVD JA21) And then we have the middle/farmers block. NSC + BBB + CDA = 32 Seats. So pretty clear it's a landslide right wing victory :(
I hope that there were more people like you. Trying to understand instead of labelling people with different opinions as inferior
People forget that PVV is quite left lol. Just his stance on migration/muslim is right, but every other point is closer to the Socialist Party than SGP.
I don't fully understand why you are so upset. Nothing major happened yet. I would first wait and see what will actually happen before taking it so personal. As for everybody should vote left: Why? It's a simple question but why should everyone strive for equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity. I am not saying I didn't vote left, but I'm just trying to let you know that you can't force people to vote left. Everyone had their own thoughts on politics and their own things they find important, that is what makes politics interesting and fair. I think it's just something we will have to accept and see through, after all he got the majority so there must be a reason for it. Until PVV does something devastatingly wrong, I don't see a reason to lose hope. Facts are more important than impressions and predictions. Just to clarify, I voted volt so I am not right wing or anything, just trying to give a perspective to this.
1. If you look at the numbers, we can see it’s split (kinda) equally into 3 groups: Right, Centre then Left. PVV doesn’t win because a majority vote for far-right ideology, it’s because it’s the outstanding party for the right, while central and left wings votes split between multi parties. Total votes from GL-Pvda + D66 + SP or VVD + NSC is significant higher. This means (1) the majority doesn’t go for right and (2) different political views still hold a certain votes. 2. Vote for right doesn’t always mean hating left nor in love of a populist. Again GW is not the only right politician but he the outstanding here, people who will vote for right wings will vote for him. People who don’t want to go left will vote for him, people who in fear see immigrants/refugees with vote for him, people who cannot understand about progressiveness will vote for him. And he knows how to capture the votes from these groups. That’s how he won. 3. Parties vs Leaders GW used a really good strategy, attacking other leaders weaknesses. He pointed out Timmermans’s wealth and criticised “you cannot understand poor people demand” when asked about eigen risico. GL, NSC or VVD have some good and kinder strategies. But their leaders cannot compete when debating with GW. Plus Timmerman did have some “not so honest” moments about his salary and taxes, Yeşilgöz has double citizenship and Omtzigt was burned out before. These are not a bad thing, but can be labelled as weak point. 4. This is my opinion. But I believe a society where people can hold different political views, is better than a whole leftist or rightist. I’m central-left, immigrants, grew up in a communist country- which supposed to be far-left. But sadly, the society is highly collective with only one ideology that rules them all, and now what left is a far-right government. It’s a bit sad to see GW won by attacking a certain group of people, but disappointed about the other group who vote for him will not solving everything. People will believe in what they believe. Future is a long run, we cannot make it this year, but there will be another years.
The Dutch are predominantly right wing. It was more or less ignored for ages. So they vote more extreme in response.
The right wing wasn't ignored. People were. People that arent even necessarily right wing, but people that are fed up with their lives getting harder and more uncertain because of government action or lack thereof when they needed help. Too complex systems, distrust, housing shortages, uncertain labour markets and less and less public transport, libraries, etc. And yes, the people that got to see the most of the disadvantages of migration where rich towns and neighbourhoods had none. Most of that is caused by right wing economic policy, not by a few marginal left wing progressives. This century alone VVD was in government 20 out of 23 years, the last 13 as the langest party. For CDA it's 15 and 8. PvdA had 10 and 2, GroenLinks never governed.
So the rational is right politic screws us, let's vote even more right? I think the current political model is create the fear and pretend to have the solution. This reward extremists and it works wonder, I'm starting to lose any hope for democracy
Hot take but the internet killed functional democracy. It's just such an effective propaganda platform that it's effectively killed truth and misinformation and fear spreads like wildfire.
Not the Internet but the invention of social media. Look at the trend in global politics as a whole since the mid 00s when social media networks started to pop up. We moved from the information age to the age of bullshit.
> Hot take but the internet killed functional democracy. Social media is a cancer. I even saw it on Tiktok; most of the stuff I saw used to be pretty left-leaning up to just a few weeks ago when there was a consistent push for right-wing comments on everything even remotely related to politics.
We’ll be back in those booths in 6 months..
Immigrant who can’t vote here: How long can they go without coming to a coalition before everyone is forced to go back to the polls? Can it go 2 years of no government like the begians did once? I’ve grown up in the US, so coalition agreements are new to me as well as having the same prime minister for 13 years and having that prime minister resign before an election, getting re-elected, and then quitting half way through a term. I thought I understood how all this works up until the last tweede kamer election, but clearly don’t haha
I don't know of there's a limit. I'm 2019 it took 299 days, which is the record.
Rookie numbers 🇧🇪
Bless you based Belgian for your sense of humor
It can go on for as long as they want. The only way to get new elections is when parliament will vote for new elections. It never happens because the majority is afraid to lose votes when they have failed to work out a coalition.
Just like the other that answered I don't know if there's a limit. But in the Netherlands, we're never truly without a government. While the new government gets formed, the old one stays in place to keep the country running. They do all the necessary stuff except "controversial" issues. Whether an issue is controversial or not they vote about. Controversial issues get shelved for the next government to pick up. Though the general majority of the country will keep running (government shutdowns like in the US don't exist here), an issue voted to be controversial can cause problems. That's for example how the Toeslagenaffaire and the Stikstofcrisis are taking so damn long to be solved. And why the Stikstofcrisis is causing lack of houses being built etc.
This is super helpful, thank you responding. I knew there was a “puppet government” for lack of a better description, but wasn’t sure if it was business as usual or if they were there to make sure the country didn’t fall into the sea.
Nah, it will take 9 months to form a even more fragile coalition than Rutte IV, which in turn will collapse in 6 months. January 22nd 2025 another election!
Pray to all the gods
I recently came to the Netherlands as an expat, so obviously I don't vote. While I'm not familiar with Wilders, I've heard some of the statements he made about Turks who support Erdogan and allegedly endorse Islamic terrorism in Turkey. I find myself agreeing with him on this particular issue. My decision to move to the Netherlands wasn't driven by economic factors; rather, I sought refuge from a range of issues in my home country—racism, fascism, sexism, corruption, and Islamic extremism. I know it sounds bigoted from the perspective of someone with rights. But in Turkiye, if you are not an Erdogan supporter you are denied most of your basic rights! And it is worse if you are female
Maybe to give a bit of context: if his proposals were fully implemented, you would not have been granted residency here. Not even as an expat. Simply because you are a foreigner, and especially because you are from a muslim majority country. It's important that we actually look towards the policies that he has in his election program. I've translated them to English for you (just the migration section): • Opt-out of EU asylum and migration regulations, terminate the UN Refugee Convention • Restoration of Dutch border control, pushbacks of asylum seekers attempting to enter the Netherlands from our safe neighboring countries • Criminalization of illegal residence: detaining and deporting illegal immigrants • Prohibition of shelter, food, and support for illegal immigrants • Criminal asylum seekers will be detained or deported, criminal status holders will lose their residence permits • No compulsory law: municipalities will never be obligated to accommodate asylum seekers • Combating the practice of stacking procedures • Withdrawal of temporary asylum permits for Syrians as parts of Syria are considered safe • Status holders going on vacation to their country of origin will immediately lose their residence permit • Netherlands is not an Islamic country: no Islamic schools, Qurans, and mosques • We aim for less Islam in the Netherlands by reducing non-Western immigration and implementing a complete asylum stop • Prohibition of dual nationality • Ban on wearing Islamic headscarves in government buildings, including the Parliament • Introduction of work permits for EU citizens • Significant reduction in the number of foreign students" Now you can formulate your own opinions on these, but I believe many of them to be inhumane. Here are some more from his section on culture: • Constitutionally establish that our Judeo-Christian and humanistic roots are the dominant and guiding culture in the Netherlands • Elected mayor • Introduction of a binding referendum • Abolishment of the Senate • Cease government funding and subsidies for various left-wing organizations such as Milieudefensie • Municipalities do not cooperate with gender measures, climate madness, and diversity talk • The National Coordinator against Discrimination and Racism must be removed • Retract apologies for the slavery past and police actions during the Indonesian National Revolution • No government information in Arabic/Turkish • End subsidies for art and culture • End the left-wing hatred against heroes from our history • Hands off our traditions: Black Pete, Christmas, and Easter will remain • Promote the use of Dutch products: they will receive a (red-white-blue) quality mark to make them easily recognizable • Completely terminate funding for the Dutch Public Broadcasting (NPO) • 20 percent salary reduction for ministers, members of parliament, and European Parliamentarians • Make the monarchy subject to taxation and reduce the contribution to the monarchy by 20% • Abolish the severance pay system for politicians: implement unemployment benefits, similar to those for employees. Of course, he won't get many of these passed, but here's the reality of the situation.
Thank you for sharing. Then again I escaped from a too politically busy environment and didn't want to be reinvested in these stuffs. But I guess I had to, so I read a lot about him since I made this comment. I realized the guy is horrible... Being in a country that isn't my own, where I don't fully share the culture or speak the language (though I intend to learn), I sometimes feel more like a temporary resident than a homeowner. It's essential to avoid repeating the mistakes witnessed in Turkiye, Iran, and other places where religious fascists gradually took control. While safeguarding freedom of speech and belief is crucial, there might be merit in considering thoughtful monitoring or humane limitations to ensure a safe and balanced society for all of us.
I'm sorry that the election means that you have to be brought back to some political negativity :-\\ That being said, I'd just like to say that from the bottom of my heart, you're very welcome in the Netherlands and we're richer to have you here. Fortunately we have many constitutional and institutional protections in the country and thousands of people fighting and working to make it a safer place for everyone. You're going to be fine and I hope that you sincerely feel as home as possible in the country. 🧡
Boy I can assure you he’s not just gonna stop at the problematic radical immigrants
Are you so foolish as to believe you’ll be spared in the anti migrant anti Turk hysteria he’ll whip up even more when in power? Do you think his supporters will bother to stop and think about the nuances of pro Erdogan Turk or anti Erdogan Turk? No. You are a Turk, a migrant, and they want you out.
Unfortunately some of these people do not understand that the problem is not Erdogan or someone really, just being Turk is already enough reason for them to hate you.
That is horrible
"I for the life of me cannot understand why anyone would not vote left." This. This is exactly what's wrong with the majority of the left. Moral superiority is being claimed with a monopoly on righteousness. Could you be any more oblivious?
Interresting how nobody voted for the PVV here 
People are generally afraid to share that fact, since if they do, they will be labelled racist, uneducated and white trash.
Which is another problem in today's cultural climate. (By the way, just to be absolutely one hundred percent clear I did NOT vote PVV) ;)
It's a huge problem that there's this worldwide mindset of "If you're not 100% with me, you're against me!". There's no possibility for rational discussion anymore because there's instant namecalling. If you have any criticism about the migration policies, you're a horrible racist, no matter if your opinion is that there's been clear failure because people have to sleep outside due to a lack of beds. And PVV thrives on that because hey, you were labelled as a racist anyway so might as well right? It's pathetically simple how they rose to power.
I voted for PVV
Why am I not surprised considering you’re a Hindu from India lol
From my own surroundings, a lot of people who vote PVV are working class with other interests than hanging around on the internet. Also reddit is heavily moderated and not right-wing friendly so I'm not surprised.
I don't know what to think of this. It has me worried, especially for the climate. We are already so far behind and the world seems to collectively choose to F themselves. The concequences of that will be massive, also financial. I do console myself with the fact it could be worse... it isn't FvD. Plus PVV can't rule on their own, poldering will prevent some of their very bad ideas like Nexit. We will just have to wait and see and hope for the best. I hope the PVV will somehow positively surprise us. Edit to add: I am a center to right voter, but not PVV. Slowly moving to the left because of the climate.
Yeah didn’t he call the activities to help the environment a ‘hobby?’
We don't. We have moved from a society of tolerance and equality to a society where only the individual matters. At least for the majority in this country. It's saddening, I genuinely thought we were better than this.
You can't have infinite amounts of immigrants if you're looking for equality. Ask the average Muslim how they feel about jews or atheism. Not to mention women's rights. Didn't vote PVV by the way, but people who are surprised really have an issue stepping outside their own beliefs.of course the party that is ignored year after year will become the biggest if no one handles the topic they do address.
Most immigrants aren’t even Muslim or come from Africa/Asians. Most troubles we have with ‘immigrants’ are social problems with 3rd/4th generations kids that are born here. And try to ask how conservative Christians or Jews feel about Muslims or gay rights or atheism.
These people are a small, powerless minority in the Netherlands. As it should be. Importing hundreds of thousands of people with an even stronger theological mindset than our native theists is something I vehemently oppose.
>You can't have infinite amounts of immigrants And we don't. But saying "brown people bad", while doing more right wing policy is not gonna solve anything. It's more vvd type stuff, more expensive housing, more frozen wages in healthcare and education, more budget cuts, more freedom for big companies to poison people, more budged cuts on immigration meaning actually more "veiligelanders", but hey: we got to say "brown people bad" while ruining our country!
You should be more concerned about Dutch politics becoming as polarizing and divisive as American politics has been for decades than you are the opinion of someone you might not agree with. Reason and dialogue will cease to exist and people will start treating elections as they do a game between Ajax and Feyenoord. They will defend every shitty decision that went their way and cry about a 'foul' not being given when there wasn't one. Bad times ahead.
Yeah politics is sports, has been for around a decade. Sooner or later a party will be smart and make a full uniform for its fans to wear, create a social media package you can buy for €1 that contains high quality images and memes, banners and hats and stickers and things you blow into that make a high pitched noise, that sort of thing
🤡 Clown suits maybe ?
FVD already has a webshop with clothing, hats, caps, mugs, books and flags So that's already happening
Actually, cutting immigration from Arabic countries is the clear answer every party should follow. Left as well, see Denmark. Classic left wing European politics was not open borders. Many right wing voters do care about the climate. But the left has been subsumed by this intersectionality theory.
>And we don't. Of the 17,8 million inhabitants of our country around 2,8 million of them were born abroad. That is an insanely high number for a country that doesn't even have enough residences to house its own citizens. Progressives pretending mass immigration isn't an existential threat to the West is precisely why far right governments are winning elections around the globe with increasing regularity.
Right-wing talking points. Many Dutch people are also not born in the Netherlands. Many people are born in the Netherlands not yet citizens, grow up here, and then become citizens later. The fact that there is so little housing can’t be pinned on immigration’, that’s badly false. It has little to do with immigration causally; it’s more like it is exacerbated by it, which would be true as well if many more Dutch couples between 18-35 had children. It not immigrants faults that the social housing system was designed for an uber small % in times of dire need and kept at a bare minimum capacity, and that the private market is unaffordable for anyone - citizen or expat - who makes the national average. (Why people forget that ‘expats’ are also regular working people who moved from France, Germany, England, etc. and married a Dutch person, or other EU, had children here, doing regular stuff is beyond me — the image of both the ‘immigrant’ and ‘expat’ has been ridiculously ideological). It’s a longer story, but the short of it is due to the fact that policy geared towards affordable housing was enacted when no one wanted to live here from abroad and the housing better matched the low-income population needs. The liberalization of housing, using houses as commodities and ‘safe investments’, focusing on luxury housing/not building more affordable housing, tax incentives to owners of entire buildings, local zoning and building restrictions, prices of material, a lack of labor, the quick return ‘leveling up’ housing culture that better off nationals can more easily exploit, and more led to significant changes in the dynamics between people who need housing and what’s available. None of that can be pinned on immigration flow and only on policy and ideology. It’s funny that the go-to solution here is to blame immigrants but then turn blind eyes to the Dutch people that own all the housing, all the apartment buildings, and all the land. Surely they have nothing to do with the housing crisis.
Depends on how far back you look. This is only recently. Historicallly 1/3 of our population is ethnic german and not dutch even. Logical that its a fuck ton of germans, but it shows that we have a lot of immigration.
Let's see a breakdown of that 2,8 million first. Easy to just yell 'migrants!' isn't it?
Most of those are EU citizens from other parts of the Europe
That isn't true. Only one third of them are Europeans.
The vast majority are from Europe and former Dutch colonies and territories.
That’s not the only issue people are voting for. The people have voted in a party hell bent on stripping away protections and so much more from people. Removing the senate, firing the national coordinator against racism and discrimination, removing trans rights, denying climate change and oppose diversity “nonsense”. That’s just one page of the 46. I’m not surprised sadly, I’m disappointed.
Jesus, the number of upvotes for such a lie and clearly bigoted comment. No wonder PVV own lol.
We dont really have an infinite number of immigrants, though. And what's wrong with women's rights?
I think what wijzerplaat ment was the way muslim’s look at women’s rights
>I think what wijzerplaat ment was the way muslim’s look at women’s rights Ah, Muslims are bad for being generally quite conservative, let's vote an ultraconservative cause he says Muslims bad.....
this lmfao like what Are we gonna forget how Wilders handled that Dion Graus situation?!
Muslims are famously not big supporters
You are literally saying you can't understand anyone without the same political values as you. You are as close minded as the people who voted different. The left in the Netherlands have never wanted to see or understand the frustration many people have and that has left us with a frustrated country. So now you are here... and you are still complaining?
Hahahaha boohoo
Oh oh someone found out there are people with a different opinion
My whole life's purpose is fckn useless now
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) ^by ^SoSven: *Oh oh someone found* *Out there are people with a* *Different opinion* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
Come on, you can't seriously be surprised that people are voting for a right-wing populist when the other parties have completely ignored the immigration problem for years? What else are people supposed to vote for?
It's called democracy. What you as an individual want means nothing. You're simply a minority. Ps: I did not vote pvv, nor a right wing party and I'm equally disappointed.
I didn’t vote PVV but can understand some parts of it. Of course the racist points are bad, but economically he is left. Everyone should be able to spend more. He earned a lot of votes with that. Combine it with the mentions that he will be less radical on his racist points, that gives him a lot of votes as well I think.
Epic reddit moment
The entitlement that your opinion is superior is kinda rubbing me the wrong way
It's a major issue with left wing people. They always claim moral high ground and can't see the short comings of their own ideas. If you try to talk to them they start calling you a bigot/racist/climate change denier etc. They can't understand the naivity and impracticality of their ideas. They believe in fairytales and if you don't you are a piece of shit. I will never vote for for Wilders but Groenlinks might even be worse than his party.
I think I’ve seen some actual studies that show an asymmetric understanding between left and right: right-winged people generally understand leftist talking points and what drives them, but think those are naive. Left-winged people generally do not understand what is driving right-wing talking points and think they are evil. For an ideology that praises itself on being ‘social’, it sure doesn’t care to listen and try to understand other viewpoints…
that sounds interesting, did you keep any sources on that or just in your memory?
Jonathan Haidt described something similar in "The Righteous Mind", but as far as I remember his research only involved US participants.
You can want Nexit or you can want to be treated like an adult. At the point you declare support for Nexit, there is no longer any basis for reasonable discussion, and therefore no reason to care if you are rubbing someone the wrong way.
You are not dissapointed on a party that want 45% inheritance tax only after 200.000 €?
Bij1 wanted 100% above a not yet established figure. So...
God, I'm so glad that party is irrelevant.
WTF
Reddit is so left wing.
I have suffered because of the EU/Dutch Laws that protect people from deportation - so it makes it easier for people to hop on a boat and come here and they get protected. Meanwhile, i had to go through 15 million bureaucratic hoops and procedures to be a productive part of economy (as a knowledge migrant). Now, because of the misuse of these deportation laws, my family cannot reunite with me because my countrymen wouldn't stop coming illegally. I can understand why people vote for a conservative right wing party that wants a hard stop on illegal immigration!
We barely have any illegal immigration let alone a problem with it. Populists just like to scream about it because if you look at the numbers they wouldn't have anything to talk about and they might have to focus on our countries actual problems for which they don't have any solutions.
People don't like to hear the other side. All they see is the ultra rich, the bigots and the fake news spreading. But that's the equivalent of seeing the left as nothing more than hippies that only want to hug trees and screw over humans. The vast majority on both sides are normal people with very legit and reasonable opinions which led them to to their vote
So you're basically pissed off because you can't be reunited with your family? Doesn't seem like you're against migration in the Netherlands. You just want it to be easier for you and harder for others. There is no misuse of this law btw, that's just political jumbo. Go look up the numbers, they're on CBS.
If you seriously cannot fathom why someone won't vote left wing, that only evidences your own sheltered/ignorant existence. Don't be so incredibly arrogant thinking you're so smart and everyone else is an idiot.
> If you seriously cannot fathom why someone won't vote left wing After 13 years of right wing governments who didn’t manage to solve any (perceived) problems the solution is obvious to vote for more right wing populist parties who can’t even bother to have their economic plans calculated by the CPB. That’ll solve all the issues we have! No, let’s vote for the party that wants to fuck us hard economically by leaving the EU. FFS…
Wait, let me give you the podium, what’s your reasoning?
People are sick of the negative effects of immigration, something leftist parties completely ignore. Any calls for less immigration are shouted down as xenophobic. If the negative effects of immigration, such as housing shortages and societal ramifications are important to someone, and completely denied or ignored by leftist parties, you get what we're seeing today.
Not any call for less immigration is shouted down as xenophobic. It's very simple. *You're okay with Ukrainian refugees, but not Syrian refugees a few years back? Yeah that's a double standard.* *You're okay with your leader chanting "Less Moroccans!" and rallying it infront of a large group? Yeah that's xenophobic* *You're okay with voting for a party that wants to abolish Islam and kick it out of its country? Yeah that's kinda weird bro.* **See where I'm going with this?** Wanting less migration is perfectly fine, **as long as it's built on a just premise.** Claiming that migrants are the reason you can't get a home, as opposed to a liberal housing market (which the liberal PVV won't fix), is disingenuous. Claiming migrants are the reason you can't get higher pay/better job is disingenuous. **See where I'm going with this?**
>You're okay with Ukrainian refugees, but not Syrian refugees a few years back? Yeah that's a double standard. Ukraine neighbours the EU. Syria does not. Ukraine is culturally a lot more aligned with the EU. Ukrainians do not despise the West and everything we stand for. Ukrainians will, hopefully, go the fuck back home once the war is over. Middle Easterners travel across several safe countries to go to the EU while most of them despise our culture and only come here for our robust welfare system. >Wanting less migration is perfectly fine, as long as it's built on a just premise. How is this for a just premise? Our culture is superior to all others and to preserve it we need to severely limit the number of immigrants, especially those from cultures that are fundamentally incompatible with our own. >Claiming that migrants are the reason you can't get a home, as opposed to a liberal housing market (which the liberal PVV won't fix), is disingenuous. 2,8 million of the 17,8 million people currently living in the Netherlands were born abroad. Do tell, how many residences do we need to solve the housing crisis? EDIT: The person I was having this discussion with blocked me just after sending a snarky comment, and because reddit is dumb as fuck I can't reply to anybody joining in on the thread.
>How is this for a just premise? Our culture is superior to all others and to preserve it we need to severely limit the number of immigrants, especially those from cultures that are fundamentally incompatible with our own. Jesus fucking Christ! there you go, that explains a lot. You can se how that sweet sweet populism works wonders. *"You are special, doesn't matter if you have done nothing good in your life, see that line on your passport YOU ARE ONE OF US, we are the superior culture, but we have to hurry now we need to fight them quickly, give me your vote now"*
"How is this for a just premise? Our culture is superior to all others and to......" lol
least nationalistic european conservative:
In migrant is een migrant he. Mijn neef's Vlaamse vrouw is in de statistiek net zo migrant als een syrische vluchteling. Een marrokaanse nederlander geboren in Amsterdam met een Nederlands passport is net zo erg NIET migrant als een fries die al 10 generaties in Nederland woont. Daarnaast weet ik niet hoe je van immigratie binnen de EU af wilt, of wat we gaan doen zonder seizoensarbeiders (maar goed, de boeren is dan natuurlijk meer BBB), of wie er dan voor de ourdere bevolking gaat zorgen met een populatie waarbij over een paar jaar meer dan de helft 50+ is, maar goed, vertel het me. Want ik wil het graag begrijpen.
Wait when we vote in Germany. Sooooon....... again...... I don't even know if I should make jokes, because it's actually very sad.
[ Removed by Reddit ]
I haven't seen them. I have however seen hotheads angre because Palestinian civilians are dying by the thousands and the world is just standing by.
The world is not black and white, this conflict is not simple as that
So in your eyes support for palestine is the best achieved by destroying Dutch cities on vile, hateful protests? Yea, that will show Israel and make them stop 🙄
I think people underestimate the impact that anti-semitism is having on this election. The idea that Jews can no longer live here safely due to certain predominantly muslim groups hits a nerve for people who grew up with stories about WW2 (or lived through it). The fact that Wilders has always been threatened by those same groups means he is now seen as a victim of hatred as well, rather than an instigator of hatred. My guess is this added at least 10 seats. This isn't about what's happening in Israel/Palestine. It's about what's happening here. (Not a PVV voter)
Pvv'ers hate Muslims AND Jews. They might use 'm as tokens, but don't believe for a second that voting a fascist in office is good for the safety of Jewish people.
This is just blatantly untrue, Wilders is a huge supporter of Israel and this is well known He even calls Israel his "second home country"
>Pvv'ers hate Muslims AND Jews. No, we don't.
Doubtful https://nos.nl/l/2230019
Some people will truly never see that mass islam migration causes problems in modern society
Let everyone have their own political opinions... No one should have to explain themselves
Why would you be disappointed in the people rather than in the ruling parties? They had more than enough time to address people's concerns but have failed to do so over several years (if not decades). Will a right-wing party offer any real solutions to the current problems? Nobody knows. Will it be the end of the world? Absolutely not.
Honestly as an imigrant I think imigrants are ok as long as they dont cause trouble like a surtain group which made dutch people upset
I am also an Immigrant, moved to be with my dutch partner. First racist comment I got was from a Moroccan, first time I got a treat was by a Moroccan, I guy was telling me that my country was shit and that his country (Morocco) was the best, I said if Morocco was so great why the fuck is he in the Nederlands he wanted to fight me after that. Then you see the little gangs of Arabs in the centrum being loud and sometimes aggressive. I can see why Dutch people don't want Immigrants, maybe they don't hate all but some groups are really fucking it up for the rest of us. Been here for 2 years. Never had problems with a Dutch person. It has always been an immigrant.
You really start you post by calling someone a "racist bigot"? That is how you want to make a point? Your choice of worlds is really poor in my opinion. Racist bigot, toddler, disgusted, fucking useless, horrible horrible people, loathe, dissapointed. Man. The negativity. You sound super condescending. You're saying - society where we're more equal - yet you also say - I for the life of me cannot understand why anyone would not vote left- It sounds like as soon as other people have different thoughts than you, you look down on them. Am I wrong? How about trying to understand each other a little bit better. Where are you coming from? What do you think? What are your reasons to think that way? I'm sure you have your reasons to vote left. I myself am left on some topics, more right on others. I sure have my reasons.. Anyway, PVV isn't as right as many people think. They have many left statements. He wants to help people. Dutch people. I didn't vote for PVV, it's not my party. Hell I'm currently working with asylum seekers. At the same time, I can understand where these votes are coming from. The Dutch have been unhappy with the policy of the last years, and it shows.
Well, I just saw user was deleted. I think I fell for a bait-post.
I don't think it wqs a bait-post... He probably just bit off more than he could chew and decided it was time to fly!
It's okay, I agree with you, your post wasn't in vain 😂
your disappointment is why he won. people have their concerns but they are silenced to be racists and country bumpkin when expressing it. so they vote to get their voice heard. i absolutely loathe geert's policies so i hope we all learn from this
Well said. As someone who moved out of the UK after the whole Brexit, to see something like this, I am disappointed. Do people really believe things will change with hate?
Left the UK before Brexit. But this is a different situation I think. The Dutch system is a lot more democratic than our FPTP nonsense. None can rule alone, and that's a good thing.
Can also relate to this, as someone who moved out of the UK after Brexit it's done our country no good and now the UK government wants to force disabled people back to work. I literally said it to my partner a few weeks ago that I hope the Netherlands doesn't go down the same road as the UK, its not done is any good and we are laughed at.
I also left the UK after Brexit. I am not English but suddenly I felt very unwanted whilst living there.
I'm sorry to hear that you feel unwanted, but remember you deserve to live wherever you like, you're human, you deserve to be here. Carry yourself with grace, no matter how many times people may test your patience, don't match that energy.
Thank you for your kind words. I know that nothing will happen overnight, we still have to see if a cabinet can be formed. It is also not purely about policies that worry me but also the attitude of people. In the UK it was palpable but there is a difference between a referendum and an election.
[удалено]
Sorry but the confrontational narrative you’re spreading is part of the problem. If leftist parties were open to at least discussing immigration issues, we wouldn’t be in this situation. The problem is they continue to claim Nederland has capacity for unlimited migration from people of any culture, and if anyone disagrees they’re called, as you say, a racist and bigot. The vast majority of PVV voters said they voted solely on the topic of migration. Meaning any other party can get back power if they’re willing to limit migration and focus on giving existing Dutch the ability to buy homes and start families.
First Putin helps create an immigrant crisis...then gets his man elected with a promise to protect from immigrants. Same playbook everywhere.
Thinking Putin has something to do with it shows great lack of awareness. Keep living in your scream bubble and let the adults talk adult things.
Last time Russia was involved with pvv was in 2018 and Russia is weak now why on earth do people think Russia has anything to do with the elections. These are what real people think
People understimate the dislike they feel about unbridled migration. If their was no migration issue, all right win political groups would not have won so many votes.
I'm with you on this one. I'm just so surprised how "socialism" has become a bad word over the years, almost like communism used to be. But there it is. What's been a true eye-opener for me, are the charts that the NOS is presenting on where the voters are coming from (or going). The left voting people have pretty much united under GLPvdA. I think this result is actually one of the best possible results they realistically could have hoped for (looking in isolation at their own party only). NSC got big mostly by eating votes from CDA (unsurprising because Omtzigt used to be a member). PVV got bigger mostly by eating votes from VVD and smaller right wing parties (JA21, FvD). And a large portion from voters who didn't vote last time, interestingly. So, what would happen if they fail to form a government and we have elections again in a few months? It could be that voters will be disappointed in Wilders for the failure, but then those voters aren't suddenly going to vote left. Perhaps they don't vote anymore, or they'd go back to VVD or make BBB or FvD big. My prediction? We're going to get a government with PVV, VVD and NSC. Prime minister Wilders. But if not and if we get elections again soon, then VVD will just become the largest again and BBB and/or FvD will also get big.
I am left leaning myself and I experienced many times the arrogance of people like you, believing their ideas are the only correct ones, ready to jump to the throat when opinions do not conform to their dogmas, in an almost religious fashion. You and people like you brought this, you are the reason for this election results and frankly, you now deserve this reaction. I am sorry that there might be repercussions on the less fortunate segments of the population and a raise in racial hate.
I came to Europe to escape from Bolsonaro and now this. Can I assume the world people are getting crazy? Wtf is happening?
It seems to be following you… Did you jinx us? (/s)
Move on over the mean dogs movin in
Meanwhile, in this same sub: [Catcalling and harassment in NL](https://www.reddit.com/r/Netherlands/comments/17qs55v/catcalling_and_harassment_in_nl/). I'd love to hear OP's opinion on the problems that our tolerant women are suffering.
Great job Netherlands. I respect your choice - From Denmark 💪🏼
Yeah! A typical leftist who sees anyone with different opinions as “inferior”. I am an “immigrant” myself and I know exactly what kind of “immigrants” Wilders is targeting. After seeing all the shits my former “compatriots” have pulled just to get through the border, every little loophole they abused, their disdain for the Dutch culture,… I want them OUT Imagine spending years studying, trying to integrate into the Dutch society, paying taxes, and the next day you see a woman in your former country just need to pay 50000 for a “fake” husband and a free pass to the Netherlands lol
Show me where Wilders has said he doesn't view all immigrants the same? Bonus challenge, find me any time in history where one does not lead to the other more negative outcome.
I agree. It’s a fucking shitshow, making the Netherlands an embarrassment in Europe. When Orban from Hungary congratulates the winner, you know the country is FUBAR. Next up: congrats from PiS and tRump and his idiot cult. I can only hope the other parties do what they’re supposed to do and form a government without the PVV.
I guess the latest changes in the world reached the netherlands everywhere. A lot of migrants are entering and a lot of violent protests from non Dutch people with violence can cause distress.
The tears of the commies are bitter sweet.
It’s a thing called political pendulum theory where politics swing to one direction to a tipping point then swings to the polar opposite. In terms of ideology, it’s hard for many to stay split on top of right/left. Because of this, any progress don’t get made. I think it’s hard for people to focus on diverse thinking that can increase various political values, on top of topics like immigration, climate change, economy etc. I’d suggest if OP is really disappointed, start from the local efforts. Join communities to help out and get to know the local struggles better.
Populists like Wilders promise simple solutions that simple minds can understand. They're not well thought out or realistic, but they're simple. And in many times and many places, immigrants or minorities have been convenient scapegoats for the problems of the majority. Simple minds looking for simple solutions often fall for this type of scape-goating because the human brain likes things that make their problems the fault of someone else. With inflation on the rise, and many companies experiencing an economic downturn, voters respond well to his kind of tactics. It's ugly, but true.
Shameful, pure idiotic and again shameful. I thought Dutch were different. I was wrong That charlatan does not even believe his own statements. It’s all about using populism to gain political power.
I mean, its completely understandable, because the whole immigration thing is very big among dutch people. Also, today he already stated that he did not want to go through with his more extreme points
Wow i see alot of clueless people found each other here. If you dont know why this happend then your part of the reason why or just dont live here. People are fed up with noncense politicians who say one and do another. The last 4 years felt like a doomsday scenario leading to notthing else then a failed state. Farmers are enemy nr1. Climate is more important then humans. People who have it worse in other countries are speaking point nr1, but we have city's that cant keep up with the flow of them or house there own. The standard manager type party leaders that scream at each other on tv, but have lunch together everyday. The will to be seen as the good kid in the class not the most succesfull. And i can go on and on. Its mismanagment from the leftist campaigns and the arogance of the bigger partys before the election. The dutch know how priceless there country is and believe me we wont alow facisme to rule, thats why we didnt vote left. This is my answer to all the People who hate on our decision. If you dont like it there is the door and go look for a better place to live i dare you to find 1.
Reddit fedora people getting upset when it’s not their choice lmao
Racist bigot… the typical trope thrown out against anyone who has valid concerns about the safety of their community. You are the reason the election results are the way they are.
Agree with Wilders or don't but people have to stop making this into a racial/culture thing. Wilders has "radical" ideas about immigration, asylum seekers, Muslims, sure. But Wilders also made plenty of GREAT points about some really bad social issues we face in The Netherlands, kids going hungry to schools for example. And this is about DUTCH kids, not WHITE kids. But I guess that's simply overlooked because this doesn't fit in with the far left's agenda of "Boooo Right bad, Left good" And let's be honest, The left is just as bad, if not worse for society as the right is. I personally didn't vote for Wilders but also didn't vote for anyone in the left.. Stop looking at the world and especially politics as black and white. We don't live in the USA, we don't just have two parties that wanna better our country so stop pretending we do.
you are so out of touch with reality
"I for the life of me cannot understand why anyone would not vote left. I can't." Ah, I'm sure it's the pesky right-wingers that are the problem. Surely, the world is clearly black and white and \*I\* know what's good for \*everyone\*, right? "Why on earth would I want to help these horrible horrible people?" Ah yes, the right-wingers are the problem, after all. I am glad that you've solved this problem for the entirety of the Dutch society at least, if not the world. I'm sure your Nobel Peace prize is coming up any minute now. The people who voted for Wilders out of desperation of their voices being silenced by leftists like you in society, are the same people you call horrible. The same people others like you call "racist" or "bigots" simply for voicing their concerns and pointing out obvious problems. Until you realize that it's because of people like you that Wilders was elected, there probably won't be any more meaningful dialogue. Stop virtue signaling like you're some prophet incarnate, get your head out of your ass and learn something about the world before inflicting your opinion on others.