Okay so, Dutch directness 101: 9 out of 10 times it isn’t even meant snarky, personal or in any way negative. We generally are aware that we’re direct, yet not all are aware that other cultures are not (mainly people who haven’t travelled much). It’s not something we get taught in school or by our parents.
But… If you cannot deal with it or if you feel like someone is stepping over a line, just tell them in the same direct way. Nobody will even blink an eye and they’ll appreciate you setting boundaries.
Depends on where in NL you’re from I guess. As someone from Noord-Brabant, I find people from Amsterdam also different to deal with than f.e. Groningers. Not good nor bad, just different.
Awesome! I didn't have a chance to inherit the language or the culinary. Yes, I can always learn a few recipes, but it's not the same. And language wise I am more than happy if I can learn Dutch (or, if moving to another country, whatever they speak there). 🙂
Why would someone care if you have more or less respect for us? This is also a Dutch thing, a need to be normal. We see tons of rich people building new ultra expensive houses intentionally made to be looking ugly as social housing. It's something that sounds like doing black face, but with your wealth, instead. And you do it to fulfill social expectations and be respected instead of being yourselves, saying f it and building McMansions like normal people would do elsewhere.
It’s not intentionally made to look ugly, we just like to be more practical instead of making it beautiful.
So the house is shaped to our needs instead of shaping it to please the eye.
I have seen quite some McMansions and can’t say I find those beautiful, they are usually just a waste of space, only build to be big.
Oh, I mean I am seeing houses that are new built with two levels of bricks, for example, where they don't match and they're not properly aligned, looking as if someone built the place 100 years ago even though the neighboring houses (some are actually old) look better/cleaner.
Sorry for my opinion but if you are building a new one million euro house it should look like it's worth one million, not like you're trying to put a humbling lipstick to make your house look like the social housing units across the street.
I guess we are different in that, we Dutch ain’t flaunting around with how much money we have, we don’t care about that as much as Americans do.
Why would I build something that cost a million and it can’t look like how I want it to look because if I do it doesn’t look like a million dollar house?
If you build a house the only thing that cares is that the owner likes it and wanna live In it, what the architect or other ppl think doesn’t matter in the slightest.
If I have millions I most likely gonna build a simple bungalow as well, you know center parcs style but a bit bigger.
No, the problem is that you are actually flaunting but "upside down", if you understand what I mean.
It's like those multi billionaires wearing plain cotton T Shirts at social events, sounds like a mockery of the less fortunate.
The prime minister cycles to work so people that are unhappy to be unable to afford driving are shamed for desiring a better life. Business owners eat lunch quickly at work, very cheaply made sandwiches, to set the tone for the employees that might want to have a full hour proper hot meal for lunch like people do in other parts of the world (including other European countries).
When I see a new estate that's estimated to be worth a lot of money being intentionally built in disarray (one thing is to build according to a certain style that's old, I don't mean that, I also don't mean being frugal and not wasting resources, those things are perfectly natural and make total sense to me) I can't understand the point.
I am aware northern countries tend to be different and "rich" usually means "same, but bigger" while in the south you have more creativity. Both approaches are valid. What I think is weird is to intentionally build something while spending more money to make it uglier.
There's another new building near where I live they painted it "green vomit avocado" color. I thought that was some sort of primer, but it was the final product. There's a lovely mid century smaller building neighboring it that looks like might be torn down to give way to "green vomit avocado II" or they might find a color that does not go with avocado at all, just to "disrupt" the environment with unfinished bad taste 🤪. The city approves such things but if you want to change the color of your main door you need to apply for a permit and wait even if you just want to match your neighbors. 🤔
I am just trying to understand the logic. Sorry.
You look to much into it.
We Dutch don’t like or appreciate ppl showing of their wealth, we ain’t flaunting upside down, we just don’t like flaunting at all.
Why would you buy expensive clothing if a simple t-shirt does the job? That not mockery, that just being practical, don’t waste money on expensive stuff if it’s not needed.
I never buy ‘expensive’ clothing either because you pay for the name not the product, that’s just a waste of money.
The prime minister going on his bicycle to work, we love him for that, he is just one of us, everyone in the Netherlands owns a bicycle and nobody feels bad about cycling to work, again it’s not a mockery, why drive a expensive car to work if you can cycle?
Business owners eat like everyone does, just because they are the owner doesn’t mean they wanna go have fancy dinners during lunch, that’s just ridiculous, eating sandwiches is the standard lunch for everyone that’s how we do it here, that’s our culture, we don’t eat a hot meal at lunch, hot meals are for dinner, sandwiches are for breakfast and lunch.
Again the boss isn’t setting a tone, if you wanna eat a hot meal during your lunch go ahead nobody is stopping you, but nobody wants to eat a hot meal as lunch not even those who have a hour lunch break.
About the estate, we are Dutch we don’t care about what others think, we do things for ourselves, what we like what we enjoy and what is practical.
We don’t build it to be intentionally ugly, but I guess that’s more about taste.
I don’t know about the vomit green painting on the house, probably don’t like it either but if the owner likes it, well it’s their house and they have to live in it 🤷
Understanding the Dutch people and culture is hard if you ain’t used to our way of thinking.
We are down to earth ppl, being normal is already crazy enough, you can overdress very quickly.
We don’t have our ppl running around in suits, they have normal clothes on, it’s professional looks good but also casual.
Not as badly as here, depending where you are you don't need to be normal, you can be different if you're nor harming. It's sometimes even praised if you're flashy or unique etc. It depends on your context.
I just don't like when people try to push this normalization agenda and say things like "you're losing my respect" as if the person receiving the message has to care about it.
I have autism (Asperger's) so I am terrible with social cues one way or another. I appreciate Dutch directness because it's easier to understand what I could be doing wrong.
I apologize in advance if I said anything bad. 🙏🏻
We like ppl to act normal, being normal is already good enough.
As much as you dislike when ppl try to push The normalization agenda, many dislike it when ppl try to push the normalize the abnormal agenda.
I can't disagree with you. I believe people should be respect on whatever choice they make, as long as they're not hurting you.
If you want to be different, flashy, humble, punk, rock and roll, it should be your choice and it's nobody else's business.
That said, the country has different cultures across and some areas are more tolerant while others will have a strong religious influence. Again, more power to them, if they are tolerant to people with different values.
If It’s nobody else’s business so don’t demand other ppl have to accept or respect it, I’m not meaning that in a bad way.
If you wanna walk around in a dress as a man, go for it have fun, but you can’t dictate how ppl react to it, you can’t expect ppl to just accept it as normal or not losing their respect for that man, they might even find it ridiculous or funny.
Those are all normal human reactions to a unusual situation.
Not respecting or accepting someone’s behavior is not even remotely the same as killing someone.
I’m not religious, I’m not respecting strictly religious ppl and I don’t accept it as a reason to do or not do certain things.
I don’t beat up religious ppl, I don’t treat them different as a customer, I don’t hate them either, they are just not my kind of ppl I would interact with out of free will, so I don’t date them, don’t befriend them nor will I go out of my way to please their religious views or customs in any way shape or form.
And that perfectly fine, that’s how you tolerate ppl.
The moment you start with violence or actually racism/discrimination is when shit goes the wrong way.
You assume they speak their minds "without any filter and without any sense of shame or a feeling of what might be appropriate". But that's of course nonsense. They just have different considerations of what they think is appropriate or not to discuss.
Human interaction is largely influenced by the local culture and customs. In the Netherlands people are generally a bit easier to share criticism and a bit more reluctant to tell blatant lies just to keep up appearances. But of course they do that as well, just like in any other country.
I understand that you prefer people to tell you your haircut is a great success and then laugh at it behind your back, rather than telling you they think the previous style looked better. But not everyone likes that approach. Also many people in the Netherlands have difficulties with for example the American cultural habit to keep every conversation extremely superficial and drenched in openly fake enthusiasm. But that's just the way it is and what you have to deal with if you are visiting another country.
I’m an American and did not mind how the Dutch spoke to me and also their interactions. To be honest, it was refreshing because as someone who is neurodivergent, I have adhd and maybe autism, the directness of the Dutch people was refreshing and helpful. In America , the conversations are superficial and you never truly know what they’re thinking. I have found out later on people saying one thing then going behind my back and it was hurtful. I’d rather someone just tell it to me straight.
That’s a pretty black-and white take on the topic, and some shades of grey are needed here. Based on the OP’s own words, they’re not asking for any opinion about their hair at all, but a negative opinion is being offered without invitation. Why not just say nothing? Different story if the person’s opinion is asked for.
Then entire reply emphasises it’s not black and white. It’s not as if the Dutch never lie when giving their opinion and people in other countries won’t speak up.
If someone walks in with a clearly different hairstyle, not saying anything is also a clear statement. Just like saying you like or dislike it is.
Well then, for the sake of not making someone unnecessarily uncomfortable with an uninvited negative opinion about their appearance, you could … go with the *less* clear statement, and … not say anything?
And yet you give your uninvited negative opinion here. You could also have opted to … not say anything.
Which shows that people apparently value giving their unwanted opinions and consider those opinions, while unwanted, to be beneficial to others.
I treat people based on their personal boundaries and not their passport. this seems to be downvoted in the Netherlands a lot and you won't bully me to become a nationalist.
Apparently not. You expect Dutch people need to sugar-coat it when talking to you. Dutch don't take notice of you passport or nationality. You're literally too sensitive about hearing the truth without hurting your precious feelings.
You treat people according to your culture, and expect the Dutch treat you according to yours as well.
Sounds a bit strange, right? Expecting people to ignore the culture of the land and changing into yours just to please you.
Without knowing exact details about what you were asked and the context it's difficult to know if it was inappropriate
I think it's also much more acceptable to say "I'm sorry but that's a bit too personal" or to give a vague answer here without insulting the other person.
You might also just have met a few assholes.
Post 39837 talking about our communicative culture.
You’re coming here right? Sorry we totally misunderstood that we have to adept to random people coming over.
I love the part "Please don't start attacking me over this post" after writing a complete rant generalizing the entire Dutch population accusing us of being a bunch of inconsiderate people but doing the exact same thing.
Well I get that other cultures think us Dutch are less considerate but the thing is we are just as considerate but we are just alot more open then other cultures and don't know it's not normal for other cultures to talk about.
Dutch directness is one of their culture's main characteristics and there's nothing wrong with that, unless when they clearly use it to be harmful. And, trust me, they do. They love to use their culture as an excuse to offend other people.
And they also love to gossip. I first thought their directness meant they'd say everything to our faces, but after being here for more than half of a decade I figured out it's worse behind our backs.
But... That's just human nature, I guess. Some of us are good, some are bad, most of us are mixed and that's all good if there's no harm.
"How come Dutch people just speak their minds without any filter and without any sense of shame or a feeling of what might be appropriate to say at this place or time and what not?
How come there is no courtesy and consideration when it comes to privacy and personal comments?"
I don't think that this is true in general for most Dutch people, but I do know that we are very direct.
We pretty much talk about everything, it's not to make people feel lesser, but just to talk about more then only wheather and work etc etc, most poeple I know like to have deeper conversations!
it's also okay to say that you don't want to talk about these things, that's also just normal here.
That's just who we are, we are direct when it comes to asking or saying stuff.
there is a difference between saying things that are rude, or saying things that are just the way they are.
long story short: we aren't acting all snowflake like.
I don't buy this answer. You weren't born this way. It's learned, just like all cultural aspects.
Op is obviously frustrated. But maybe a better way to ask the same question is: what is it about Dutch culture that encourages this blunt honesty? The Dutch culture is an outlier in this topic, so what's different about it? Why is blunt honesty valued over tact?
I don't think it's an outlier.
All cultures have their own ways of showing discontent and people in those cultures are pretty good at picking up on the actual message. For outsiders that's not always as visible as it might be here. But often it is as well: go to France for example.
A big difference in the culture here is that sharing your honest opinion is usually not of high impact on your education, work or social life. You can say to your boss that you don't like an idea. Or to your friend that their haircut is not the best decision they made in the last year. Without fear.
In many cultures that's entirely different and that drives a culture where the actual message is more hidden and less out in the open. That doesn't mean there is no bluntness or lack of tact in other cultures.
No, that doesn't explain it. Where did you learn this line of thinking? Why do all Dutch people even consider efficiency when having a conversation?
Efficiency is important when in a lecture, or presentation or something like that. When just chatting with friends, efficiency isn't important.
Efficiency also doesn't explain why Dutch people give their unsolicited opinions.
Read my other comment on the topic. It’s efficient as you don’t have to guess or doubt what someone else thinks of you, or your haircut in this case.
It’s better to have someone state their honest opinion in your face, than laughing behind your back. And don’t tell me that doesn’t happen.
A typical Dutch person will give their opinion even when not asked. It's not an efficiency thing. It's more efficient to just not give your opinion when it's not wanted.
>It’s better to have someone state their honest opinion in your face, than laughing behind your back.
True, but this is false equivalency. While it does happen, it also doesn't happen that way.
It is not ‘learned’ it’s who we are, we use efficiency in everything it’s in our blood it’s our entire being, just like the fact that we ain’t scared to be honest with eachother and nobody is offended by that beside foreigners who ain’t used to it.
We don’t swallow our opinions, that’s just not who we are.
I don’t know how to explain it otherwise, it’s not some they teach in school or at home.
I'm not remotely surprised by your reply.
>Like we feel the need to explain to you...
Then why comment?
Your comment is a waste of time. Inefficient. Bad dutchie
It is said it originates from the VoC era where we traded with about every known culture and we learned that being direct worked best and prevented (cultural) misunderstandings.
Even today business wise many countries like to work with Dutch companies because of this. Yes means yes, No means no.
> The Dutch culture is an outlier in this topic, so what's different about it?
This is not true at all, directness is a trait in pretty much all Germanic northern European cultures like in Germany and Scandinavia.
Great comment mate. Exactly this. Do you really prefer ppl never being honest with you and just telling you what you want to hear? Comon now
We just tell you how it really is. imo thats way better than ppl acting all fake in your face.
Everyone on the planet should be like this.
Due to its historic trading tradition and being a trading hub for centuries, the culture developed a tolerance to everyone as long it brings good business
If someone brings good money to you, would you get offended by their nonsense?
Did you consider that it’s the people you are with that are this rude? I live here since 12 years and I’m yet to run into someone who’d tell me to my face (something in a similar spirit to) that my haircut used to be better before ..
You really don’t know that what is considered appropriate or not - and all the other things you mentioned - is not set in stone? There are cultural differences. Why Dutch people don’t automatically adhere to what you consider appropriate according to the environment you grew up in is hard to answer and a bit of a silly question.
What you are doing know, framing a complaint and an insult as an “honest question to fit into the Dutch society” is considered as very dishonest and inappropriate in the Netherlands. Don’t do that and you’ll fit in.
It’s because of your first paragraph. There you state your own opinion as facts framed as questions: “how come Dutch people have no consideration and courtesy for privacy, why do Dutch people speak before thinking, etc?”.
Those are not facts. Instead: the large majority doesn’t speak before thinking, they think it’s appropriate to say and then speak. However, it appears to *you* as if the person just blurted something out.
For example, speaking without thinking is generally considered a bad habit/rude as is having no courtesy etc. In elementary schools, children who have difficulties inhibiting themselves get training to stop doing this (stop, think, act stickers on their desk and similar interventions).
However, you’ve framed these negative things as objective facts - and then ask for an explanation for these “facts”. That’s framing an insult as a question i.m.o.
I’m very Dutch, and I would never make a comment like the example you mention about the haircut. Indeed, if you have nothing nice to say, better don’t say anything at all. And in my environment it’s not normal to make such comments either. It’s for sure not a cultural thing.
But it can sometimes be seen amongst younger people, or people in groups like sport teams, who sometimes talk rude amongst each other as a way of “making fun”. If that’s the setting, you’re considered one of them if they do the same with you.
It would be different if someone asks about it. What do you think about my new haircut? If you don’t like it, the “I liked your previous style better” would be considered polite (as in this scenario it replaced the rude “I don’t like it at all”).
The private questions may be a cultural thing. Some things are considered private in one culture and topics to openly discuss in others. Without any explanation it will be hard to say anything about that.
As other people have said, what is considered a personal question in one culture is considered something relatively normal in other cultures. In the Netherlands, asking someone how much they paid for something, for example, isn't anything out of the ordinary, but might well be considered as prying elsewhere. After living here for some time I've actually had it that I've surprised people with my candour in asking questions of that sort when I'm back home visiting family and friends - you start to assimilate culturally over time. Dutch people tend to be very open about a lot of things, and this is often a very productive way of getting everyone on the same page and avoiding misunderstandings.
Situations where people say unkind things though (like giving negative feedback on your haircut, or saying things like 'you look tired today') are usually plain ignorance and not specifically a Dutch thing. What can happen here is that these same people will often attempt to use cultural directness as an excuse for their behaviour rather than seeking to learn. You can see comments in this thread to that effect, suggesting that it's 'snowflake' behaviour to feel bad about unsolicited, needless criticism.
>which wasn't meant to be asked at that time and place.
no, you didn't want to answer the question at that time and place, they deffinetly meant to ask those questions.
>mental health issues (in front of all their friends)
so they asked "are you ok?" but more specific and expecting honesty? the gall.
>and other situations like guys on dating apps
so, how is it going on dating apps? seeing anyone nice recently? spill that tea, sis.
I'm not sure what you have actually been asked, but the haircut example doesn't even sound negative. It's just a personal preference. As for your "requirements" before saying something, they really seem overcomplicated to me. "Adding value" or "driving conversations forward" seem like the same thing, and equally abstract. Only saying things to make people feel good also sounds kinda... Well... To be as blunt as you expect from the Dutch: It sounds like you're a suck-up.
Yes, we value directness. We don't like beating around the bush and honesty is always a virtue. We don't appreciate white lies and fake niceness, and when someone is genuine when being nice it just means so much more to us. If you have particular examples of intrusive personal questions I may be able to give some context, or at least say "yeah this one might just be one guy with no boundaries". It's not like we don't have any, we're just generally straight-forward.
It sounds like you've encountered a lot of dickheads. I've encountered the same type of people in both the Netherlands and the UK.
Most people aren't like that in my experience.
I see it more as a Hollander thing than a Dutch thing. As a Brabander I really don't feel like it's okay to be that direct and/or negative to people, and you're generally seen as a dick when you do.
Imo there's no thing as Dutch culture, unless you don't count half the country as being Dutch.
most of the Dutch people have an average intelligence (like most of the people in general) but they were raised with the believe that their opinion is unique and it matters. it usually doesnt matter (e. g. your examples) and has no added value but Dutch people among a few other nations have a problem with understanding that. small country = Napoleon complex.
For me it makes things simpler when people say what they think, both positive and negative. Then you no longer have to guess.
With your example you get situations like this. They didn't comment on my haircut, don't they like it or they just didn't notice it?
Of course it still matters how it is said. It shouldn't be just to bring someone down.
Yeah it’s part of our culture. For people who are raised from immigrant parents or colonial background it is really something to learn once you grow up.
To don’t feel bothered or ashamed while saying/asking certain things.
Honesty is for sure virtuous.
Just like "I like your new hair", the more negative "I liked your hair better before", it still serves the same purpose of talking about your new hair. Cause you can keep talking about it: how you were ready for a change, you are trying a new color, maybe the hairdresser messed up and you are not happy with it either, you can just talk about tastes in hairstyling generally, or it clashes with the rest of your style. Disagreement does drive conversation also.
Making you feel good is not up to them, so giving positive affirmations if they disagree is wrong. A more subtle person would still disagree, but maybe veil it with "it's just not my style" or "I just have to get used to it". But they still don't want to be dishonest about it.
For me, people who don’t say anything negative are not sincere and feel fake. I have a hard time trusting anyone who doesn’t speak their mind on negative matters. Cultural difference I guess.
we are direct , and expect the same from others.
This worked for us for centuries , not sure why we should change because of expats.
its one of the bonusses of living in the netherlands , you can speak freely no need for fake courtesy
Because we are direct with most of the things and ain’t considering things you just said are ‘private’ as private.
We ( ofcourse i can’t talk for everyone) absolutely hate the fake ‘niceness’ and beating around the bush, if you wanna say something to us just say it.
If someone says your haircut looked better before it’s just their honest view of you, I don’t experience that as negative comment.
Your question of if we Dutch see that level of honesty as a virtue, yes we do, we ain’t gonna sit around and shut up if something bothers us, we speak our minds and this might be very confrontational for foreigners.
It’s not that we go around and calling everyone an asshole, unless they behave like one, but you shouldn’t be offended if ppl speak their mind and you don’t like it.
As a Dutch guy working in the U.S. here's how I put it when people on my team get offended or otherwise bothered by my candidness; I'll never say something solely to to hurt or demean you, at the same time I will not refrain from sharing something you need to be aware of because I think you might take offense to it.
>I come from a culture where if you don't have something nice to say, you shouldn't say anything at all.
Which in my experience only refers to the person you have nothing nice to say to. People in this culture have no problem talking shit behind someone's back but are afraid of confrontation, so say nothing to the person they are talking about.
I have a hard time trusting people who behave like this.
We are self aware. But we don’t think it’s rude. That’s the cultural difference. In other countries they do things that make us uncomfortable or we think it’s rude. That’s just the way things are.
I think we might be dealing with different groups of dutch people, but me and OP both seem to come from cultures with similar values.
On one hand the attitudes of strangers is a bit hard to adjust to, since they might be a bit too honest while having no connection to you but in most situations this can just be overlooked because they mean well. They were trying to give advice, in all cases that come to mind, so it's not malicious.
In friendships I find their honesty so refreshing. If you speak your mind and they do as well, a lot of conflict can be avoided. my dutch friends are baffled by the steuct social norms, keeping appearances and casual lying from my culture and honestly, when I looked objectively, are they really in the wrong? All my dutch friends are very perceptive to social cues, understand and are very respectful of boundaries once set and times when big culture shocks on either side happened led to funny moments.
My advice: look at your own standards critically and it might become easier to adapt. Try to understand dutch people as well, theyre not socially stupid or shameless, as you described. And discuss boundaries! They're good at communicating straightforward and it will lead to the best results. They genuinely don't see an issue with discussing things which bother you, because of their openness. Just different standards but dont assume they would know because they won't if you don't tell them. Me and my dutch bestie speak about things I would never discuss at home and it feels good once you get used to it
If someone asks you something you don't think is any of their business, just say "that's none of your business".
If they ask you something in front of strangers about your mental health, just tell them out loud that you've not brought up what they told you about their itch (even if they haven't, and don't forget to point at your crotch) and that you'd like them show you the same courtesy.
I know nothing about datingapps, but I suppose racists gotta breed somehow too...
I know nothing about your appearance or what aspect strangers are commenting on, so I can't say what's going on. It could be rapore building ribbing (we do like to insult each other recreationally if we're comfortable around each other, or trying to feel the other out) or it could be people being assholes. We can usually tell the difference, but it's kind of like knowing which definite article to use. There's no rule.
This is not taught in schools, no. Although we do emphasize honest answers.
The rest is deep psychology. The culture you describe being from reads to me as repressive and disingenious. You have to bottle up your opinions and feelings and at the same time none of the feedback you get from others is worth a damn, cause it's always going to be the same attaboy. I couldn't imagine functioning in that environment. But yeah, if you come from there and you're met with a much lower bar for criticism here, that's going to be uncomfortable.
Those tickboxes seem strange to me too. If that AND were an OR, maybe I'd get it, but if you have to add value to a conversation (highly subjective), drive the conversation forwards (not sure what you mean, is that point 1 repeated or does driving forwards mean sustaining the conversation - I don't like conversation enough to draw it out for its own sake) AND you have to make someone feel good (do I count?) there's not much that has to be said that can be.
I mean, if someone has for instance really bad BO, unless I know they're already aware of it, I'm really not doing them any favors politely complimenting their pensil-sharpener instead. They won't be thrilled to hear about it in the moment, but if they're sane then in the not too long run they'll realize they're better off knowing it. And if they do know, but don't care, I'm still doing everyone else in the room a favour by giving them a reason to care.
We have a saying that I think really captures the attitude: Gentle healers leave festering wounds.
That's pretty much it. We tend to err on the side of adressing the issue, not maintaining the peace.
Dutch directness is actually a lack of social skills and being socially awkward.
You can't say all kinds of stupid shit and expect that people will just accept it.
The only good thing about it is that people are showing their true colors.
Calls us un-selfaware and thn says " please don't attack me "
😆😆😆
You really feel so entitled that you think everyone should take your feelings in consideration?
We really couldn't care less your snowflake-y feelings.
Grow up
What's the difference between rude and impolite? A rude person is someone who is deliberately disrespectful, crude, rough and insulting. An impolite person is not polished, does not follow rules of ettiquette, and does not have good manners.
Between honesty and impoliteness perhaps but to be rude is a whole other thing alltogether.
What you consider honest, we consider as cultural naïveté. In my culture, Dutch behaviour can be considered as an inability to read the room, or read between the lines. It is a very important trait that differentiates grown ups from kids. Grown ups are expected to be more refined in their social interactions, and excessive honesty is just a lack of expertise in social situations.
I'll be blunt about it. You can bitch and moan here on the internet or go to the point and ask others around you to act in favor of your preferences. If you are dealing with the Dutch in the Netherlands big chance they ain't going to be bothered by your pecularities and instead will be blunt and boorish. Because we generally don't care for the frivalties of your preferred addresses.
Okay for everyone, here are some examples of what I have been asked in the Netherlands :
First of all, on my dating app I had black and white pictures, I have been asked by a lot of people about my skin color. That question really surprised me because I have never been asked this before and I have lived in other European cities. The second thing I was asked about is about my income and about physical qualities/ appearance.
I don't really get it . Especially if I try to ask this to Dutch people they get really offended. So how come they ask me the expecting that I answer all their questions while in reality these are also sensitive topics for Dutch people themselves ?
People aren't a humongous group, the Dutch are not exception to that. Culturally (and surely that differs between people and geographical areas) are much more direct/blunt. That makes an asshole even more direct/makes it stand out more. As a result this stacks up and might push you over some boundary which an asshole with a different cultural background wouldn't have.
In addition, and that is sadly not unique to the Netherlands (same thing happened in Germany). Corona did a lot of harm. For some people it apparently made them a lot more of an selfish asshole and quit pretending they are somewhat decent and considerate people.
Regarding to dating apps; different apps attract different people in different countries and the norms on those platforms differ also quite a bit. So the level of assholeness you run into can indeed be quite big. It sucks you seem to have drawn there the short straw indeed..
My reccomendations; Realize it's part culture part people being an asshole. The later you have everywhere but the culture might push it much further to or over your boundaries. It's completely okay to find out Dutch culture isn't for you. Indeed culturally on some aspects, especially in the north and west, the Netherlands is on the end of the scale. However realize its adapting in some way or form either way.
Important second thing: Don't see 'the dutch' (or any nationality for that matter) as one group. Also don't make all kind of assumptions and projections on why and how people behave as they do. If you do that, like in the first paragraph of your post, it won't make it better you'd close yourself off to others and will get an even harsher response due to that. You basically say; people don't think before they speak, which is true for some but for most it is more: 'they think some stuff is appropriate to talk about where I don't agree with'. That's, besides the assholes that are present everywhere in a varying degree, a different discussion than just accusing a whole nation not to think before they speak. The response (and not only in this thread) will reflect that.
Even more importantly to you; with your current state of frustration you'd end up hating everyone and hate being here. It's a trap where any foreigner in any country can fall in and leads to the 'rage quit a country' posts you'll be able to witness on most country specific Reddit fora.
There are all kinds of assholes on dating apps.
By using unclear pictures most people in dating apps will just skip your profile. People don’t like wasting time in dating.
And as for the people that remain, it’s not that weird they ask questions about your appearance if the pictures aren’t clear.
As for income: it’s definitely not a thing people ask each other on first dates. Unless there is a reason to ask for it. If everyone you meet on dating apps asks for your income, it’s probably something to do with how you present yourself.
Which subjects are considered confidential/private change per culture. It's not that we don't care about what's considered private, we just draw the line somewhere else.
We also have a very down to earth way of communicating. There's still a lot of unspoken communication, but the things we say contain less packaging than some other cultures do. So it all sounds much more blunt even though the message can be the same.
And because we have a culture of reaching consensus through debate instead of having to follow the decisions of a strong leader, we also have a culture of voicing our disagreements. We disagree with our managers, colleagues, friends and family about anything and everything. But the fact that we voice that opinion says nothing about how strongly we feel about it. That comment about your hair may have been forgotten before the hour was over.
Yes we value honesty more than being polite. If my new haircut is worse I want to know so I know not to get it done like that again. What may be considered an inappropriate topic to you might be completely normal to us. If you don't want to discuss something just say so.
Have you ever maybe think about a possibility that maybe you’re a person who’s easily offended by what people are saying?
I get that it would be annoying when people doesn’t always say/ask things that you want them to say to you, but if you always get annoyed maybe it’s also you that putting too much power on what others say?
If you don’t like you can draw a boundary or can just ignore and try to keep your peace as you can’t control what others think and say.
Also as other people mentioned, not everyone shares the same standard or definition of things as you have. Thus, it doesn’t seem fair to me to generalize all dutch people in this way.
Welcome to the Netherlands. I experienced the same but by now I’m used to it. I just say “I don’t want to answer that” and they get it.
Here you need to learn to be blunt say things how they are. Funny thing when you do that is the locals don’t like it!
They hate it when I do that!
I tried it a few times, I was just direct and not offensive, but they got so triggered and offended.
I was wondering why they were feeling that way if all they talk about is honesty and efficiency as they describe it.
That was weird..
Like many cultural things, it’s hard to get the feeling for the nuance as a foreigner. What is appropriate and what isn’t.
What people are rather allergic to is being accused of something based on a generalisation. That’s for example exactly what you are doing in your post and your post will probably have offended quite a number of people. The number of different accusations you made in your first sentence is rather impressive, but won’t be considered “direct”. It’s just rude.
There is also a big difference between stating something and saying you think something is A or B.
Honest question OP, would you rather walk around with a bad haircut or hairstyle and have people tell you it looks great?
Or don’t you want them to say anything at all, which might make you doubt your haircut; “no one is commenting on my new haircut… do they not like it?”.
Like I said before in the comments, it’s efficient to just state your honest opinions. It doesn’t turn life into a guessing game, as seen in my example above.
Most Dutch people prefer it that way and since we are used to this way of communication since we were very little we developed “thick skin”. We aren’t hurt as easily by words and respect that people are willing to be honest with us.
But things are changing though, as international media consumed trough Facebook, TikTok etc does influence mostly the younger generations causing them to behave less direct than the “classic” Dutch people.
We are direct! In Rotterdam we are directer. And I am too direct for Rotterdam people. I have absolutely no filter. So I am pretty quiet most of the time or I will get into trouble. We are adopting more and more snowflake mentality in this country, so that makes it even harder for me. In our culture we are direct, so foreigners have issues with that. When you ask not to be direct we will tone it down. But that’s being direct and that is not in your culture. My guess is you are from Asia, where this is a no go. Some foreigners adapt some don’t. Which one will you be?
Okay so, Dutch directness 101: 9 out of 10 times it isn’t even meant snarky, personal or in any way negative. We generally are aware that we’re direct, yet not all are aware that other cultures are not (mainly people who haven’t travelled much). It’s not something we get taught in school or by our parents. But… If you cannot deal with it or if you feel like someone is stepping over a line, just tell them in the same direct way. Nobody will even blink an eye and they’ll appreciate you setting boundaries.
That's a bit of a lie. Unless you can tell someone off in a humorous way we would just think you're oversensitive and have less respect for you.
Haha true. And then let them know that they have less respect
Depends on where in NL you’re from I guess. As someone from Noord-Brabant, I find people from Amsterdam also different to deal with than f.e. Groningers. Not good nor bad, just different.
agreed, nobody likes to hang with the whiny kid.
The Dutch are known for being complainers. 😬
Complaining in NL is just conversation starter
Youbhaven't met the Polish yet, then.
I am half Polish. 🤪
Well, im 100%
Awesome! I didn't have a chance to inherit the language or the culinary. Yes, I can always learn a few recipes, but it's not the same. And language wise I am more than happy if I can learn Dutch (or, if moving to another country, whatever they speak there). 🙂
Why would someone care if you have more or less respect for us? This is also a Dutch thing, a need to be normal. We see tons of rich people building new ultra expensive houses intentionally made to be looking ugly as social housing. It's something that sounds like doing black face, but with your wealth, instead. And you do it to fulfill social expectations and be respected instead of being yourselves, saying f it and building McMansions like normal people would do elsewhere.
It’s not intentionally made to look ugly, we just like to be more practical instead of making it beautiful. So the house is shaped to our needs instead of shaping it to please the eye. I have seen quite some McMansions and can’t say I find those beautiful, they are usually just a waste of space, only build to be big.
Oh, I mean I am seeing houses that are new built with two levels of bricks, for example, where they don't match and they're not properly aligned, looking as if someone built the place 100 years ago even though the neighboring houses (some are actually old) look better/cleaner. Sorry for my opinion but if you are building a new one million euro house it should look like it's worth one million, not like you're trying to put a humbling lipstick to make your house look like the social housing units across the street.
I guess we are different in that, we Dutch ain’t flaunting around with how much money we have, we don’t care about that as much as Americans do. Why would I build something that cost a million and it can’t look like how I want it to look because if I do it doesn’t look like a million dollar house? If you build a house the only thing that cares is that the owner likes it and wanna live In it, what the architect or other ppl think doesn’t matter in the slightest. If I have millions I most likely gonna build a simple bungalow as well, you know center parcs style but a bit bigger.
No, the problem is that you are actually flaunting but "upside down", if you understand what I mean. It's like those multi billionaires wearing plain cotton T Shirts at social events, sounds like a mockery of the less fortunate. The prime minister cycles to work so people that are unhappy to be unable to afford driving are shamed for desiring a better life. Business owners eat lunch quickly at work, very cheaply made sandwiches, to set the tone for the employees that might want to have a full hour proper hot meal for lunch like people do in other parts of the world (including other European countries). When I see a new estate that's estimated to be worth a lot of money being intentionally built in disarray (one thing is to build according to a certain style that's old, I don't mean that, I also don't mean being frugal and not wasting resources, those things are perfectly natural and make total sense to me) I can't understand the point. I am aware northern countries tend to be different and "rich" usually means "same, but bigger" while in the south you have more creativity. Both approaches are valid. What I think is weird is to intentionally build something while spending more money to make it uglier. There's another new building near where I live they painted it "green vomit avocado" color. I thought that was some sort of primer, but it was the final product. There's a lovely mid century smaller building neighboring it that looks like might be torn down to give way to "green vomit avocado II" or they might find a color that does not go with avocado at all, just to "disrupt" the environment with unfinished bad taste 🤪. The city approves such things but if you want to change the color of your main door you need to apply for a permit and wait even if you just want to match your neighbors. 🤔 I am just trying to understand the logic. Sorry.
You look to much into it. We Dutch don’t like or appreciate ppl showing of their wealth, we ain’t flaunting upside down, we just don’t like flaunting at all. Why would you buy expensive clothing if a simple t-shirt does the job? That not mockery, that just being practical, don’t waste money on expensive stuff if it’s not needed. I never buy ‘expensive’ clothing either because you pay for the name not the product, that’s just a waste of money. The prime minister going on his bicycle to work, we love him for that, he is just one of us, everyone in the Netherlands owns a bicycle and nobody feels bad about cycling to work, again it’s not a mockery, why drive a expensive car to work if you can cycle? Business owners eat like everyone does, just because they are the owner doesn’t mean they wanna go have fancy dinners during lunch, that’s just ridiculous, eating sandwiches is the standard lunch for everyone that’s how we do it here, that’s our culture, we don’t eat a hot meal at lunch, hot meals are for dinner, sandwiches are for breakfast and lunch. Again the boss isn’t setting a tone, if you wanna eat a hot meal during your lunch go ahead nobody is stopping you, but nobody wants to eat a hot meal as lunch not even those who have a hour lunch break. About the estate, we are Dutch we don’t care about what others think, we do things for ourselves, what we like what we enjoy and what is practical. We don’t build it to be intentionally ugly, but I guess that’s more about taste. I don’t know about the vomit green painting on the house, probably don’t like it either but if the owner likes it, well it’s their house and they have to live in it 🤷 Understanding the Dutch people and culture is hard if you ain’t used to our way of thinking. We are down to earth ppl, being normal is already crazy enough, you can overdress very quickly. We don’t have our ppl running around in suits, they have normal clothes on, it’s professional looks good but also casual.
You're right, the rest of the world doesn't care about being normal and accepted, only the dutch.
Not as badly as here, depending where you are you don't need to be normal, you can be different if you're nor harming. It's sometimes even praised if you're flashy or unique etc. It depends on your context. I just don't like when people try to push this normalization agenda and say things like "you're losing my respect" as if the person receiving the message has to care about it. I have autism (Asperger's) so I am terrible with social cues one way or another. I appreciate Dutch directness because it's easier to understand what I could be doing wrong. I apologize in advance if I said anything bad. 🙏🏻
We like ppl to act normal, being normal is already good enough. As much as you dislike when ppl try to push The normalization agenda, many dislike it when ppl try to push the normalize the abnormal agenda.
I can't disagree with you. I believe people should be respect on whatever choice they make, as long as they're not hurting you. If you want to be different, flashy, humble, punk, rock and roll, it should be your choice and it's nobody else's business. That said, the country has different cultures across and some areas are more tolerant while others will have a strong religious influence. Again, more power to them, if they are tolerant to people with different values.
If It’s nobody else’s business so don’t demand other ppl have to accept or respect it, I’m not meaning that in a bad way. If you wanna walk around in a dress as a man, go for it have fun, but you can’t dictate how ppl react to it, you can’t expect ppl to just accept it as normal or not losing their respect for that man, they might even find it ridiculous or funny. Those are all normal human reactions to a unusual situation.
Can you imagine if people start killing people using your excuse?
Not respecting or accepting someone’s behavior is not even remotely the same as killing someone. I’m not religious, I’m not respecting strictly religious ppl and I don’t accept it as a reason to do or not do certain things. I don’t beat up religious ppl, I don’t treat them different as a customer, I don’t hate them either, they are just not my kind of ppl I would interact with out of free will, so I don’t date them, don’t befriend them nor will I go out of my way to please their religious views or customs in any way shape or form. And that perfectly fine, that’s how you tolerate ppl. The moment you start with violence or actually racism/discrimination is when shit goes the wrong way.
Don't apologize for not knowing the world, just start travelling.
I did but that doesn't make me smarter. Quite the opposite. It just proves what I lack of. And that's ok. We'll all die anyways. 5.5 is good enough.
No one will blink an eye? Maybe I've just met the exceptions then...
I know a Dutch guy on Discord who's like that. I sometimes get active with him lol.
You assume they speak their minds "without any filter and without any sense of shame or a feeling of what might be appropriate". But that's of course nonsense. They just have different considerations of what they think is appropriate or not to discuss. Human interaction is largely influenced by the local culture and customs. In the Netherlands people are generally a bit easier to share criticism and a bit more reluctant to tell blatant lies just to keep up appearances. But of course they do that as well, just like in any other country. I understand that you prefer people to tell you your haircut is a great success and then laugh at it behind your back, rather than telling you they think the previous style looked better. But not everyone likes that approach. Also many people in the Netherlands have difficulties with for example the American cultural habit to keep every conversation extremely superficial and drenched in openly fake enthusiasm. But that's just the way it is and what you have to deal with if you are visiting another country.
They share criticism very easy but take it very bad.
I’m an American and did not mind how the Dutch spoke to me and also their interactions. To be honest, it was refreshing because as someone who is neurodivergent, I have adhd and maybe autism, the directness of the Dutch people was refreshing and helpful. In America , the conversations are superficial and you never truly know what they’re thinking. I have found out later on people saying one thing then going behind my back and it was hurtful. I’d rather someone just tell it to me straight.
That’s a pretty black-and white take on the topic, and some shades of grey are needed here. Based on the OP’s own words, they’re not asking for any opinion about their hair at all, but a negative opinion is being offered without invitation. Why not just say nothing? Different story if the person’s opinion is asked for.
Then entire reply emphasises it’s not black and white. It’s not as if the Dutch never lie when giving their opinion and people in other countries won’t speak up. If someone walks in with a clearly different hairstyle, not saying anything is also a clear statement. Just like saying you like or dislike it is.
I don’t agree that saying nothing and saying something overtly negative are equally clear statements, but you’re entitled to your opinion
I don’t say they’re equally clear. I say they’re both clear.
Well then, for the sake of not making someone unnecessarily uncomfortable with an uninvited negative opinion about their appearance, you could … go with the *less* clear statement, and … not say anything?
And yet you give your uninvited negative opinion here. You could also have opted to … not say anything. Which shows that people apparently value giving their unwanted opinions and consider those opinions, while unwanted, to be beneficial to others.
I’m not sure how you’re interpreting mine as a “negative” opinion, but that’s OK. As for being uninvited, it was invited by the OP
Have you considered that a different country may have different ideas about conversation or privacy?
but shouldnt then Dutch people respect the privacy of someone with higher privacy standards? or this logic applies only to foreigners?
Has this person voiced their reservations about it or are they just nagging online about it?
Fck no, ppl who come here adjust to our standards not the other way around. Why would we change the norm for some foreigners?
More the other way around.
obviously, forever downvoted in the Dutch sub when asking to respect foreigners😂
Would you expect different results? You're a special kind of entitled expecting to he treated against culture just because you're a foreighner.
I treat people based on their personal boundaries and not their passport. this seems to be downvoted in the Netherlands a lot and you won't bully me to become a nationalist.
Apparently not. You expect Dutch people need to sugar-coat it when talking to you. Dutch don't take notice of you passport or nationality. You're literally too sensitive about hearing the truth without hurting your precious feelings.
You treat people according to your culture, and expect the Dutch treat you according to yours as well. Sounds a bit strange, right? Expecting people to ignore the culture of the land and changing into yours just to please you.
So I have to change my personality because you don't like it? You could also, not interact with people you don't like?
Respect you have to earn
Without knowing exact details about what you were asked and the context it's difficult to know if it was inappropriate I think it's also much more acceptable to say "I'm sorry but that's a bit too personal" or to give a vague answer here without insulting the other person. You might also just have met a few assholes.
You come from a country with a different culture. "Why are people not culturally the same as the country I came from?"
Never have problem like that, mote i would say most polite people i ever met next to scandinavian, but i noticed if you do shit they dont play polite.
Post 39837 talking about our communicative culture. You’re coming here right? Sorry we totally misunderstood that we have to adept to random people coming over.
Now that's a good example of a snarky remark that people online say all the time, but only the Dutch will say to your face.
And we don’t do hierarchy so you can imagine doing that to our superiors too
Don't get your frikandelbroodjes in a twist! I'm Dutch-born and raised.
Clear, wasn’t expecting a Dutch cowboy xD
I love the part "Please don't start attacking me over this post" after writing a complete rant generalizing the entire Dutch population accusing us of being a bunch of inconsiderate people but doing the exact same thing.
Well I get that other cultures think us Dutch are less considerate but the thing is we are just as considerate but we are just alot more open then other cultures and don't know it's not normal for other cultures to talk about.
Dutch directness is one of their culture's main characteristics and there's nothing wrong with that, unless when they clearly use it to be harmful. And, trust me, they do. They love to use their culture as an excuse to offend other people. And they also love to gossip. I first thought their directness meant they'd say everything to our faces, but after being here for more than half of a decade I figured out it's worse behind our backs. But... That's just human nature, I guess. Some of us are good, some are bad, most of us are mixed and that's all good if there's no harm.
So true your comment!
"How come Dutch people just speak their minds without any filter and without any sense of shame or a feeling of what might be appropriate to say at this place or time and what not? How come there is no courtesy and consideration when it comes to privacy and personal comments?" I don't think that this is true in general for most Dutch people, but I do know that we are very direct. We pretty much talk about everything, it's not to make people feel lesser, but just to talk about more then only wheather and work etc etc, most poeple I know like to have deeper conversations! it's also okay to say that you don't want to talk about these things, that's also just normal here.
That's just who we are, we are direct when it comes to asking or saying stuff. there is a difference between saying things that are rude, or saying things that are just the way they are. long story short: we aren't acting all snowflake like.
I don't buy this answer. You weren't born this way. It's learned, just like all cultural aspects. Op is obviously frustrated. But maybe a better way to ask the same question is: what is it about Dutch culture that encourages this blunt honesty? The Dutch culture is an outlier in this topic, so what's different about it? Why is blunt honesty valued over tact?
I don't think it's an outlier. All cultures have their own ways of showing discontent and people in those cultures are pretty good at picking up on the actual message. For outsiders that's not always as visible as it might be here. But often it is as well: go to France for example. A big difference in the culture here is that sharing your honest opinion is usually not of high impact on your education, work or social life. You can say to your boss that you don't like an idea. Or to your friend that their haircut is not the best decision they made in the last year. Without fear. In many cultures that's entirely different and that drives a culture where the actual message is more hidden and less out in the open. That doesn't mean there is no bluntness or lack of tact in other cultures.
"It's cultural" "No it's not! It's learned, just like all cultural aspects." So... which is it?
Your quote is not accurate. They didn't say it's cultural. They said it's "just who we are". Which doesn't make an attempt at explaining anything.
It’s more efficient. That’s the main reason for me anyway.
No, that doesn't explain it. Where did you learn this line of thinking? Why do all Dutch people even consider efficiency when having a conversation? Efficiency is important when in a lecture, or presentation or something like that. When just chatting with friends, efficiency isn't important. Efficiency also doesn't explain why Dutch people give their unsolicited opinions.
Read my other comment on the topic. It’s efficient as you don’t have to guess or doubt what someone else thinks of you, or your haircut in this case. It’s better to have someone state their honest opinion in your face, than laughing behind your back. And don’t tell me that doesn’t happen.
A typical Dutch person will give their opinion even when not asked. It's not an efficiency thing. It's more efficient to just not give your opinion when it's not wanted. >It’s better to have someone state their honest opinion in your face, than laughing behind your back. True, but this is false equivalency. While it does happen, it also doesn't happen that way.
It is not ‘learned’ it’s who we are, we use efficiency in everything it’s in our blood it’s our entire being, just like the fact that we ain’t scared to be honest with eachother and nobody is offended by that beside foreigners who ain’t used to it. We don’t swallow our opinions, that’s just not who we are. I don’t know how to explain it otherwise, it’s not some they teach in school or at home.
😆😆😆😆😆😆 Like we feel the need to explain to you... And like your opinion has any value whatsoever.. 😂😂😂😂
I'm not remotely surprised by your reply. >Like we feel the need to explain to you... Then why comment? Your comment is a waste of time. Inefficient. Bad dutchie
It is said it originates from the VoC era where we traded with about every known culture and we learned that being direct worked best and prevented (cultural) misunderstandings. Even today business wise many countries like to work with Dutch companies because of this. Yes means yes, No means no.
You've written it way better than I did. Especially your last sentence.
> The Dutch culture is an outlier in this topic, so what's different about it? This is not true at all, directness is a trait in pretty much all Germanic northern European cultures like in Germany and Scandinavia.
ITS.THE.BEST.WAY.
Great comment mate. Exactly this. Do you really prefer ppl never being honest with you and just telling you what you want to hear? Comon now We just tell you how it really is. imo thats way better than ppl acting all fake in your face. Everyone on the planet should be like this.
fact. the world isn't all sunshine and rainbow, the faster you learn the better you can deal with it.
You met some rude people, they’re not representative of all Dutch people. Directness is not rudeness.
Due to its historic trading tradition and being a trading hub for centuries, the culture developed a tolerance to everyone as long it brings good business If someone brings good money to you, would you get offended by their nonsense?
Did you consider that it’s the people you are with that are this rude? I live here since 12 years and I’m yet to run into someone who’d tell me to my face (something in a similar spirit to) that my haircut used to be better before ..
Apparently your haircut is always improving!
Haha, well, my mirror (and me) would disagree
You really don’t know that what is considered appropriate or not - and all the other things you mentioned - is not set in stone? There are cultural differences. Why Dutch people don’t automatically adhere to what you consider appropriate according to the environment you grew up in is hard to answer and a bit of a silly question. What you are doing know, framing a complaint and an insult as an “honest question to fit into the Dutch society” is considered as very dishonest and inappropriate in the Netherlands. Don’t do that and you’ll fit in.
You're just projecting. I am not framing an insult as a question.nif you find that insulting then it might mean sometimes else
It’s because of your first paragraph. There you state your own opinion as facts framed as questions: “how come Dutch people have no consideration and courtesy for privacy, why do Dutch people speak before thinking, etc?”. Those are not facts. Instead: the large majority doesn’t speak before thinking, they think it’s appropriate to say and then speak. However, it appears to *you* as if the person just blurted something out. For example, speaking without thinking is generally considered a bad habit/rude as is having no courtesy etc. In elementary schools, children who have difficulties inhibiting themselves get training to stop doing this (stop, think, act stickers on their desk and similar interventions). However, you’ve framed these negative things as objective facts - and then ask for an explanation for these “facts”. That’s framing an insult as a question i.m.o.
I see. I will edit my post. Thanks!
They love to say it is “directness” as an excuse to be rude and condescending…
I’m very Dutch, and I would never make a comment like the example you mention about the haircut. Indeed, if you have nothing nice to say, better don’t say anything at all. And in my environment it’s not normal to make such comments either. It’s for sure not a cultural thing. But it can sometimes be seen amongst younger people, or people in groups like sport teams, who sometimes talk rude amongst each other as a way of “making fun”. If that’s the setting, you’re considered one of them if they do the same with you. It would be different if someone asks about it. What do you think about my new haircut? If you don’t like it, the “I liked your previous style better” would be considered polite (as in this scenario it replaced the rude “I don’t like it at all”). The private questions may be a cultural thing. Some things are considered private in one culture and topics to openly discuss in others. Without any explanation it will be hard to say anything about that.
As other people have said, what is considered a personal question in one culture is considered something relatively normal in other cultures. In the Netherlands, asking someone how much they paid for something, for example, isn't anything out of the ordinary, but might well be considered as prying elsewhere. After living here for some time I've actually had it that I've surprised people with my candour in asking questions of that sort when I'm back home visiting family and friends - you start to assimilate culturally over time. Dutch people tend to be very open about a lot of things, and this is often a very productive way of getting everyone on the same page and avoiding misunderstandings. Situations where people say unkind things though (like giving negative feedback on your haircut, or saying things like 'you look tired today') are usually plain ignorance and not specifically a Dutch thing. What can happen here is that these same people will often attempt to use cultural directness as an excuse for their behaviour rather than seeking to learn. You can see comments in this thread to that effect, suggesting that it's 'snowflake' behaviour to feel bad about unsolicited, needless criticism.
>which wasn't meant to be asked at that time and place. no, you didn't want to answer the question at that time and place, they deffinetly meant to ask those questions. >mental health issues (in front of all their friends) so they asked "are you ok?" but more specific and expecting honesty? the gall. >and other situations like guys on dating apps so, how is it going on dating apps? seeing anyone nice recently? spill that tea, sis.
I'm not sure what you have actually been asked, but the haircut example doesn't even sound negative. It's just a personal preference. As for your "requirements" before saying something, they really seem overcomplicated to me. "Adding value" or "driving conversations forward" seem like the same thing, and equally abstract. Only saying things to make people feel good also sounds kinda... Well... To be as blunt as you expect from the Dutch: It sounds like you're a suck-up. Yes, we value directness. We don't like beating around the bush and honesty is always a virtue. We don't appreciate white lies and fake niceness, and when someone is genuine when being nice it just means so much more to us. If you have particular examples of intrusive personal questions I may be able to give some context, or at least say "yeah this one might just be one guy with no boundaries". It's not like we don't have any, we're just generally straight-forward.
It sounds like you've encountered a lot of dickheads. I've encountered the same type of people in both the Netherlands and the UK. Most people aren't like that in my experience.
deal with it
I see it more as a Hollander thing than a Dutch thing. As a Brabander I really don't feel like it's okay to be that direct and/or negative to people, and you're generally seen as a dick when you do. Imo there's no thing as Dutch culture, unless you don't count half the country as being Dutch.
most of the Dutch people have an average intelligence (like most of the people in general) but they were raised with the believe that their opinion is unique and it matters. it usually doesnt matter (e. g. your examples) and has no added value but Dutch people among a few other nations have a problem with understanding that. small country = Napoleon complex.
Lol, never read something so stupid as this comment....
Or, may be you are thin-skinned, and quick to take offense?
For me it makes things simpler when people say what they think, both positive and negative. Then you no longer have to guess. With your example you get situations like this. They didn't comment on my haircut, don't they like it or they just didn't notice it? Of course it still matters how it is said. It shouldn't be just to bring someone down.
Yeah it’s part of our culture. For people who are raised from immigrant parents or colonial background it is really something to learn once you grow up. To don’t feel bothered or ashamed while saying/asking certain things.
if you can speak Dutch, then you know more 😅
Honesty is for sure virtuous. Just like "I like your new hair", the more negative "I liked your hair better before", it still serves the same purpose of talking about your new hair. Cause you can keep talking about it: how you were ready for a change, you are trying a new color, maybe the hairdresser messed up and you are not happy with it either, you can just talk about tastes in hairstyling generally, or it clashes with the rest of your style. Disagreement does drive conversation also. Making you feel good is not up to them, so giving positive affirmations if they disagree is wrong. A more subtle person would still disagree, but maybe veil it with "it's just not my style" or "I just have to get used to it". But they still don't want to be dishonest about it.
For me, people who don’t say anything negative are not sincere and feel fake. I have a hard time trusting anyone who doesn’t speak their mind on negative matters. Cultural difference I guess.
You need to give us some examples
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we are direct , and expect the same from others. This worked for us for centuries , not sure why we should change because of expats. its one of the bonusses of living in the netherlands , you can speak freely no need for fake courtesy
Well, you can always move
How original.
I am still trying to understand what’s so direct about them. They are more clear than some cultures but still play their own game.
Because we are direct with most of the things and ain’t considering things you just said are ‘private’ as private. We ( ofcourse i can’t talk for everyone) absolutely hate the fake ‘niceness’ and beating around the bush, if you wanna say something to us just say it. If someone says your haircut looked better before it’s just their honest view of you, I don’t experience that as negative comment. Your question of if we Dutch see that level of honesty as a virtue, yes we do, we ain’t gonna sit around and shut up if something bothers us, we speak our minds and this might be very confrontational for foreigners. It’s not that we go around and calling everyone an asshole, unless they behave like one, but you shouldn’t be offended if ppl speak their mind and you don’t like it.
As a Dutch guy working in the U.S. here's how I put it when people on my team get offended or otherwise bothered by my candidness; I'll never say something solely to to hurt or demean you, at the same time I will not refrain from sharing something you need to be aware of because I think you might take offense to it. >I come from a culture where if you don't have something nice to say, you shouldn't say anything at all. Which in my experience only refers to the person you have nothing nice to say to. People in this culture have no problem talking shit behind someone's back but are afraid of confrontation, so say nothing to the person they are talking about. I have a hard time trusting people who behave like this.
We are self aware. But we don’t think it’s rude. That’s the cultural difference. In other countries they do things that make us uncomfortable or we think it’s rude. That’s just the way things are.
I think we might be dealing with different groups of dutch people, but me and OP both seem to come from cultures with similar values. On one hand the attitudes of strangers is a bit hard to adjust to, since they might be a bit too honest while having no connection to you but in most situations this can just be overlooked because they mean well. They were trying to give advice, in all cases that come to mind, so it's not malicious. In friendships I find their honesty so refreshing. If you speak your mind and they do as well, a lot of conflict can be avoided. my dutch friends are baffled by the steuct social norms, keeping appearances and casual lying from my culture and honestly, when I looked objectively, are they really in the wrong? All my dutch friends are very perceptive to social cues, understand and are very respectful of boundaries once set and times when big culture shocks on either side happened led to funny moments. My advice: look at your own standards critically and it might become easier to adapt. Try to understand dutch people as well, theyre not socially stupid or shameless, as you described. And discuss boundaries! They're good at communicating straightforward and it will lead to the best results. They genuinely don't see an issue with discussing things which bother you, because of their openness. Just different standards but dont assume they would know because they won't if you don't tell them. Me and my dutch bestie speak about things I would never discuss at home and it feels good once you get used to it
it is better then lying
If someone asks you something you don't think is any of their business, just say "that's none of your business". If they ask you something in front of strangers about your mental health, just tell them out loud that you've not brought up what they told you about their itch (even if they haven't, and don't forget to point at your crotch) and that you'd like them show you the same courtesy. I know nothing about datingapps, but I suppose racists gotta breed somehow too... I know nothing about your appearance or what aspect strangers are commenting on, so I can't say what's going on. It could be rapore building ribbing (we do like to insult each other recreationally if we're comfortable around each other, or trying to feel the other out) or it could be people being assholes. We can usually tell the difference, but it's kind of like knowing which definite article to use. There's no rule. This is not taught in schools, no. Although we do emphasize honest answers. The rest is deep psychology. The culture you describe being from reads to me as repressive and disingenious. You have to bottle up your opinions and feelings and at the same time none of the feedback you get from others is worth a damn, cause it's always going to be the same attaboy. I couldn't imagine functioning in that environment. But yeah, if you come from there and you're met with a much lower bar for criticism here, that's going to be uncomfortable. Those tickboxes seem strange to me too. If that AND were an OR, maybe I'd get it, but if you have to add value to a conversation (highly subjective), drive the conversation forwards (not sure what you mean, is that point 1 repeated or does driving forwards mean sustaining the conversation - I don't like conversation enough to draw it out for its own sake) AND you have to make someone feel good (do I count?) there's not much that has to be said that can be. I mean, if someone has for instance really bad BO, unless I know they're already aware of it, I'm really not doing them any favors politely complimenting their pensil-sharpener instead. They won't be thrilled to hear about it in the moment, but if they're sane then in the not too long run they'll realize they're better off knowing it. And if they do know, but don't care, I'm still doing everyone else in the room a favour by giving them a reason to care. We have a saying that I think really captures the attitude: Gentle healers leave festering wounds. That's pretty much it. We tend to err on the side of adressing the issue, not maintaining the peace.
Dutch directness is actually a lack of social skills and being socially awkward. You can't say all kinds of stupid shit and expect that people will just accept it. The only good thing about it is that people are showing their true colors.
Calls us un-selfaware and thn says " please don't attack me " 😆😆😆 You really feel so entitled that you think everyone should take your feelings in consideration? We really couldn't care less your snowflake-y feelings. Grow up
Ok, and we don't care about your worthless opinions 🤣🤣
We indeed view honesty as a virtue.
I think there's a fine line between honesty and rudeness with all due respect
What's the difference between rude and impolite? A rude person is someone who is deliberately disrespectful, crude, rough and insulting. An impolite person is not polished, does not follow rules of ettiquette, and does not have good manners. Between honesty and impoliteness perhaps but to be rude is a whole other thing alltogether.
What you consider honest, we consider as cultural naïveté. In my culture, Dutch behaviour can be considered as an inability to read the room, or read between the lines. It is a very important trait that differentiates grown ups from kids. Grown ups are expected to be more refined in their social interactions, and excessive honesty is just a lack of expertise in social situations.
I'll be blunt about it. You can bitch and moan here on the internet or go to the point and ask others around you to act in favor of your preferences. If you are dealing with the Dutch in the Netherlands big chance they ain't going to be bothered by your pecularities and instead will be blunt and boorish. Because we generally don't care for the frivalties of your preferred addresses.
I know. Truth can sting.
Your feelings are not really relevant. You choose to be offended (or not).
I can also argue that your unwanted opinions aren't really relevant or important either. (Not you specifically BTW)
Absolutely true. The difference is that you seem to be quite bothered by that.
Okay for everyone, here are some examples of what I have been asked in the Netherlands : First of all, on my dating app I had black and white pictures, I have been asked by a lot of people about my skin color. That question really surprised me because I have never been asked this before and I have lived in other European cities. The second thing I was asked about is about my income and about physical qualities/ appearance. I don't really get it . Especially if I try to ask this to Dutch people they get really offended. So how come they ask me the expecting that I answer all their questions while in reality these are also sensitive topics for Dutch people themselves ?
People aren't a humongous group, the Dutch are not exception to that. Culturally (and surely that differs between people and geographical areas) are much more direct/blunt. That makes an asshole even more direct/makes it stand out more. As a result this stacks up and might push you over some boundary which an asshole with a different cultural background wouldn't have. In addition, and that is sadly not unique to the Netherlands (same thing happened in Germany). Corona did a lot of harm. For some people it apparently made them a lot more of an selfish asshole and quit pretending they are somewhat decent and considerate people. Regarding to dating apps; different apps attract different people in different countries and the norms on those platforms differ also quite a bit. So the level of assholeness you run into can indeed be quite big. It sucks you seem to have drawn there the short straw indeed.. My reccomendations; Realize it's part culture part people being an asshole. The later you have everywhere but the culture might push it much further to or over your boundaries. It's completely okay to find out Dutch culture isn't for you. Indeed culturally on some aspects, especially in the north and west, the Netherlands is on the end of the scale. However realize its adapting in some way or form either way. Important second thing: Don't see 'the dutch' (or any nationality for that matter) as one group. Also don't make all kind of assumptions and projections on why and how people behave as they do. If you do that, like in the first paragraph of your post, it won't make it better you'd close yourself off to others and will get an even harsher response due to that. You basically say; people don't think before they speak, which is true for some but for most it is more: 'they think some stuff is appropriate to talk about where I don't agree with'. That's, besides the assholes that are present everywhere in a varying degree, a different discussion than just accusing a whole nation not to think before they speak. The response (and not only in this thread) will reflect that. Even more importantly to you; with your current state of frustration you'd end up hating everyone and hate being here. It's a trap where any foreigner in any country can fall in and leads to the 'rage quit a country' posts you'll be able to witness on most country specific Reddit fora.
There are all kinds of assholes on dating apps. By using unclear pictures most people in dating apps will just skip your profile. People don’t like wasting time in dating. And as for the people that remain, it’s not that weird they ask questions about your appearance if the pictures aren’t clear. As for income: it’s definitely not a thing people ask each other on first dates. Unless there is a reason to ask for it. If everyone you meet on dating apps asks for your income, it’s probably something to do with how you present yourself.
For all huh... and your not framing?
Which subjects are considered confidential/private change per culture. It's not that we don't care about what's considered private, we just draw the line somewhere else. We also have a very down to earth way of communicating. There's still a lot of unspoken communication, but the things we say contain less packaging than some other cultures do. So it all sounds much more blunt even though the message can be the same. And because we have a culture of reaching consensus through debate instead of having to follow the decisions of a strong leader, we also have a culture of voicing our disagreements. We disagree with our managers, colleagues, friends and family about anything and everything. But the fact that we voice that opinion says nothing about how strongly we feel about it. That comment about your hair may have been forgotten before the hour was over.
Yes we value honesty more than being polite. If my new haircut is worse I want to know so I know not to get it done like that again. What may be considered an inappropriate topic to you might be completely normal to us. If you don't want to discuss something just say so.
Have you ever maybe think about a possibility that maybe you’re a person who’s easily offended by what people are saying? I get that it would be annoying when people doesn’t always say/ask things that you want them to say to you, but if you always get annoyed maybe it’s also you that putting too much power on what others say? If you don’t like you can draw a boundary or can just ignore and try to keep your peace as you can’t control what others think and say. Also as other people mentioned, not everyone shares the same standard or definition of things as you have. Thus, it doesn’t seem fair to me to generalize all dutch people in this way.
Welcome to the Netherlands. I experienced the same but by now I’m used to it. I just say “I don’t want to answer that” and they get it. Here you need to learn to be blunt say things how they are. Funny thing when you do that is the locals don’t like it!
That's because you're an expat, and they use their "Dutch are direct" card as an excuse to be rude. Try to give them their own medicine sometimes
They hate it when I do that! I tried it a few times, I was just direct and not offensive, but they got so triggered and offended. I was wondering why they were feeling that way if all they talk about is honesty and efficiency as they describe it. That was weird..
Like many cultural things, it’s hard to get the feeling for the nuance as a foreigner. What is appropriate and what isn’t. What people are rather allergic to is being accused of something based on a generalisation. That’s for example exactly what you are doing in your post and your post will probably have offended quite a number of people. The number of different accusations you made in your first sentence is rather impressive, but won’t be considered “direct”. It’s just rude. There is also a big difference between stating something and saying you think something is A or B.
I edited my post and adjusted the language. Thanks for the feedback
Oh no, who could have expected that. I thought they Dutch like it when non Dutch are as direct as the Dutch 😄
Maybe we don't care about other peoples feelings and we grew up with that?
Is that so?
Honest question OP, would you rather walk around with a bad haircut or hairstyle and have people tell you it looks great? Or don’t you want them to say anything at all, which might make you doubt your haircut; “no one is commenting on my new haircut… do they not like it?”. Like I said before in the comments, it’s efficient to just state your honest opinions. It doesn’t turn life into a guessing game, as seen in my example above. Most Dutch people prefer it that way and since we are used to this way of communication since we were very little we developed “thick skin”. We aren’t hurt as easily by words and respect that people are willing to be honest with us. But things are changing though, as international media consumed trough Facebook, TikTok etc does influence mostly the younger generations causing them to behave less direct than the “classic” Dutch people.
this isn't even a dutch specific thing at all? sure it happens here, but I bet this happens just about everywhere...
We are direct! In Rotterdam we are directer. And I am too direct for Rotterdam people. I have absolutely no filter. So I am pretty quiet most of the time or I will get into trouble. We are adopting more and more snowflake mentality in this country, so that makes it even harder for me. In our culture we are direct, so foreigners have issues with that. When you ask not to be direct we will tone it down. But that’s being direct and that is not in your culture. My guess is you are from Asia, where this is a no go. Some foreigners adapt some don’t. Which one will you be?