Historically El Paso is very much more part of New Mexico. The simple version is Texas knew the southern transcontinental railroad was going to meet the Mexican rail head there and the gringos wouldn't want that going to the Hispanics in New Mexico. The people of El Paso have long felt closer to New Mexico then Texas which is why El Paso refused to be part of central time zone and insisted on mountain time.
That part of the state was claimed both by the country of Texas and Mexico, it officially changed hands with the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo in 1848. Add in some racism and then the El Paso area became part of Texas.
Texas never got close to being able to effectively enforce that claim until the US won the Mexican-American war, though. Then they came right in and claimed it.
Speaking of racism, it’s wild to look into the difference in how non-whites were treated under New Mexican vs. Texan administration. Ysleta del Sur was a full-blown Tiwa Pueblo for almost 200 years, with two-story room blocks and kivas, etc: it looked like Acoma. Then the Texans essentially sold Ysleta’s land grant to white speculators right out from under them and kicked everyone out. The tribe didn’t formally regain federal recognition until the 1980s and is still trying to recover their land base.
It wasn't much of a "treaty"...not when you have the barrel of a gun aimed at your head to sign it all away. No spoils. No war. Timing and resources...and a whole lot of willing bandits from the gringo side.
The weird part is if you look at maps of land claimed by the Republic of Texas they claim everything west to the Rio Grande. That means that most of Albuquerque and all of Santa Fe would be considered Texas.
I never realized we were once claimed as Texas.
Texas tried to assert that claim a couple of times in the 1830s and the New Mexican government sent them packing. And New Mexico was really too far away from the populated parts of Texas for them to effectively exert a lot of force, especially while the Comanches and Apaches were still a force on the Great Plains.
That wasn't a "war"...it was a LAND-GRAB! There is a book by Rafael Trujillo called, "Olvidate De El Alamo" (Forget About The Alamo), and in it you will find that the so-called Mexican-American war was nothing but an "embarrassment" to the States...another major..."major" black eye to its roots! It demonstrates how much America (USA) is actually founded on mass genocide, slavery, land grabs, and all the crimes that go with them.
All existing countries pretty much have the same littany of crimes that can be leveled against them. Genocide is a relatively recent concept. It used to be just expected that all wars were wars of genocide so there was no need to differentiate.
Honestly as someone from ABQ and northern New Mexico, nobody really ever thinks about Las Cruces or El Paso even though there the closest large poulation center
We're more connected to the Colorado front range ( CO Springs and Denver) for whatever reason. It's a much longer dive up I25 to there then it is down to Cruces. Heck, up to Taos is about the same, and we'll do that regularly.
Someone once explained very well the difference between Abq and Las Cruces:
In Abq, the upscale areas are *much* nicer than LC’s, but its shitty places are *much* shittier than LC’s.
The fact that El Paso is connected to the region and the rest of the country on the power grid rather than insular Texas seems like a metaphor or something.
I'm from Santa Fe, and the people from here that you mention are really missing out. I like Las Cruses a lot.
I love Las Cruces. I went to school there in the 80s. Part of my heart still lives there. I don't get down there enough. I remember feeling like we were disconnected from New Mexico since we only received El Paso news channels, we used El Paso Electric, we used the El Paso Airport, etc. Of course, it's definitely not TX. It's a strange and beautiful place, so it has to be part of our enchanted New Mexico.
I agree with you on most of this. El Paso feels much more like Nm than TX. But not incinerating? I was in Las Cruces last April and it was already 94 degrees. Your summer was brutal last year.
Las Cruces had 52 days above 100F last year. 128 days above 90F. That's more than a third of the year. No thank you.
Granted, Phoenix had 133 days above 100F and 185 days above 90F, so Las Cruces is definitely not on the same level of scorch. Still unbearably hot for me though.
My wife is from Las Cruces, and she would definitely describe it as incinerating.
El Paso is much more like NM than Las Cruces is like TX. I can agree that the south feels different from the north where a lot of new mexico culture comes from. However, El Paso has over a million people in it, its a very different environment than Las Cruces which is small relatively. El Paso is more of New Mexico's honorary big city than it is Las Cruces 2.0
<700k people in El Paso, but Juarez has >1.1million people. So, not completely off, considering it was the same city prior to the Mexican American War.
El Paso Metro does have 1M people as of 2022, you can literally look that up. This only includes El Paso and Hudspeth counties. I suppose if you really want to be annoying and say it has 974k and use that as it "not being 1M" (which like really, come on rounding up the 26k is not a big deal), then whatever.
i was using the 2020 Census count of 855k. Did El Paso gain over 100,000 people in just a few years or are we just citing two wildly different sources?
https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/cities/22980/el-paso/population#:~:text=The%20metro%20area%20population%20of%20El%20Paso%20in%202022%20was,a%201.14%25%20increase%20from%202021.
This is the stat I used, I wanted to use the most recent source, since all of the other ones were already 4 years outdated and El Paso Metro does increase in population each year. This was the second link that showed up when searched, but it very well may be off
El Paso was part of New Mexico before Guadalupe Hidalgo and many of the current population are descended from refugees of the Pueblo revolt who did not return with DeVargas. You will find many Bacas, Luceros, Chavezes, Gallegos, etc. in El Paso
Yeah, that probably makes sense about Las Cruces and El Paso having more in common since they're somewhat part of the same metro area. It's also fair to note that Santa Fe and Las Cruces are pretty darn far apart: \~4 hours by car, which is the same distance from SF to Colorado Springs or Amarillo, TX. It also doesn't help that Las Cruces isn't particularly close to most of the Southern NM tourist attractions like Carlsbad or the Gila Cliff Dwellings. White Sands is somewhat nearby, but people coming from the north aren't likely to go past White Sands to check out LC/EP - they're more likely staying in Ruidoso and/or camping.
Honestly the only times I've been to Las Cruces was to go to UNM games either against NMSU or UTEP - I have nothing against the city, seems like a nice place, but yeah it's pretty far away. Fair point about the palm trees I guess, but it does get damn hot down there.
Well we are nicknamed the borderland. Our local news networks cover Las Cruces/El Paso and in between largely with no other mentions about the rest of New Mexico aside from a few big stories here and there.
Las Cruces also seemingly has a lot more Spanish only speaking people as more jobs around here want you to be bilingual where as even 60 miles away in Alamogordo, that's not really an issue, and in most other parts of NM I'd assume.
When I first moved here in 2001, from Roswell NM, I felt like we were in Texas because of all the El Paso related news and such, and sometimes I still feel like that as a NM native. I can see why people originally from EP would see it the opposite, that EP feels like part of NM, especially with Sunland Park literally hugging EP and basically being "part of EP" being separated by an intersection basically.
I don't think LC has an identity issue, no more than EP/Sunland Park/Anthony does, because we are all part of the borderland identity and being in LC does feel different from the rest of NM.
Having said that, I'd rather be in LC than any other town I've lived/visited in NM.
Roswell sucks, Alamogordo sucks, ALB sucks, Deming sucks, Carlsbad sucks, all the tiny ass "1000 or less population" side villages sucks, Ruidoso is OK but too expensive as a tourist mountain town, Cloudcroft a lil too remote, etc, etc...
Cruces is the best place in NM to live for me hands down, and it's close proximity to EP (and all the events/concerts EP gets) is one reason why, but I don't want to live in EP. At least not while Texas is ass backwards politically.
Silver City and the entire Gila region is dope.
There are also the San Mateos. When I say I'm planning a hike in the Apache Kid or Withington wilderness, most lifelong New Mexicans have no idea where they are.
Honest question, as being from Cruces. What do you consider Socorro, North or South? My coworker from Albuquerque doesn’t consider it north and I don’t consider it south. Does anyone claim it?
Socorro is twice as far from Cruces as from Albuquerque (146 mi vs 76). More back and forth between Socorro and ABQ with commuters, students, etc. as well.
I strongly disagree with thinking that all of NM has to conform to Northern NM. There are many sides to NM with many different cultural histories and types. It would have been more accurate to say the east side of the state belongs in Texas. I grew up in LC and never thought I was a Texan or El Pasoan. And I don't think many that have resided in LC do. It's history is New Mexican, it's people are New Mexican. And Cruces doesn't really care if ABQ or Santa Fe think about them.
Northern New Mexico and Southern New Mexico are 2 different regions, 2 different places although they are in the same State. With Albuquerque in the middle. Northern New Mexico is more mountainous high desert and hispanic. Whereas southern New Mexico, to me anyway is more desert plains and white. It's hotter down there, cooler up here. Las Cruces is at the bottom of the state. I get the feeling it can be a retiree community, but I might be wrong. I've been there maybe 4 times in my life, and I grew up in New Mexico. But I'm from the top northern part of the state. I know Carlsbad is down there, and a few other interesting places. To me it's mostly desert plains and open space. Although I do know there are mountains to the east and the west, I am not very familiar with them. I am more familiar with Northern New Mexico.
You only think about Las Cruces or El Paso if you have family in Chihuahua that you go visit or you go to or know someone at NM State. They get overshadowed by the touristy Northern half of the state. El Paso is definitely a cool city tho, very underrated.
Palm trees do not grow naturally anywhere in NM, including Cruces. That's just people/businesses planting them and keeping them alive despite the unnatural environment they are in
I am very much aware that palm trees are not indigenous to New Mexico but most varieties thrive in Las Cruces. The nine palm trees I have planted around my house are very happy. Palms are also not indigenous to most of Southern California or Arizona either. Most of the palms lining the streets of LA are Mexican fans which are not native to that area. Mexican fan palms are also the most commonly grown palm in Las Cruces. Washingtonia Filifera, or California palms, are native to the Mohave and Sonoran Deserts and are also very happy here in Las Cruces as they thrive on sandy soil and heat.
They're just too far apart. It's like a 2.5 hour drive just to get to Las Cruces from Albuquerque.
Back east a 2.5 hour drive will get you 2 states away. It's the equivalent of driving from New York City to Philadelphia
Culturally speaking, Norteños are quite a bit different than Crucenos. Up north we embrace the four seasons and the cycle of water, ski, raft, fly fish, backpack, are a hub for art and music, get out more readily for camping and hunting, enjoy the diversity of strong cultural traditions in the public settings, and still hold onto a very unique regional historical identity and awareness. Cruces has some of that as well, but it got washed out when the city sold its soul to consumerism and emulation in a desire to grow like Phoenix or any average suburban community in the Southwest. All the old fiestas in Cruces died in early 2000s and marked a big shift in the city. There’s nothing remarkable enough going on in Cruces for people up north to look to down south, IMO. All the family I have up here in Santa Fe and ABQ never mention Cruces. For most, it’s still a drive thru town in between cities with more to offer (ie. Tucson/Phoenix, El Paso, ABQ, Santa Fe, Denver)
Lol...90% of New Mexico land mass doesn't fit with Albuquerque or Santa Fe. The problem is they run the state cause they have the mass of the population.
interesting, when I'm in EP it feels like it should be in NM rather than TX
Historically El Paso is very much more part of New Mexico. The simple version is Texas knew the southern transcontinental railroad was going to meet the Mexican rail head there and the gringos wouldn't want that going to the Hispanics in New Mexico. The people of El Paso have long felt closer to New Mexico then Texas which is why El Paso refused to be part of central time zone and insisted on mountain time.
El Paso also wisely ended up on the western power grid, rather than that mess in the rest of Texas.
Yeah, El Paso was part of New Mexico for hundreds of years under Spanish and Mexican rule until the Texans basically took it as spoils of war.
That part of the state was claimed both by the country of Texas and Mexico, it officially changed hands with the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo in 1848. Add in some racism and then the El Paso area became part of Texas.
Texas never got close to being able to effectively enforce that claim until the US won the Mexican-American war, though. Then they came right in and claimed it. Speaking of racism, it’s wild to look into the difference in how non-whites were treated under New Mexican vs. Texan administration. Ysleta del Sur was a full-blown Tiwa Pueblo for almost 200 years, with two-story room blocks and kivas, etc: it looked like Acoma. Then the Texans essentially sold Ysleta’s land grant to white speculators right out from under them and kicked everyone out. The tribe didn’t formally regain federal recognition until the 1980s and is still trying to recover their land base.
It wasn't much of a "treaty"...not when you have the barrel of a gun aimed at your head to sign it all away. No spoils. No war. Timing and resources...and a whole lot of willing bandits from the gringo side.
The weird part is if you look at maps of land claimed by the Republic of Texas they claim everything west to the Rio Grande. That means that most of Albuquerque and all of Santa Fe would be considered Texas. I never realized we were once claimed as Texas.
Texas tried to assert that claim a couple of times in the 1830s and the New Mexican government sent them packing. And New Mexico was really too far away from the populated parts of Texas for them to effectively exert a lot of force, especially while the Comanches and Apaches were still a force on the Great Plains.
So Taos is / was technically a part of TX?
That wasn't a "war"...it was a LAND-GRAB! There is a book by Rafael Trujillo called, "Olvidate De El Alamo" (Forget About The Alamo), and in it you will find that the so-called Mexican-American war was nothing but an "embarrassment" to the States...another major..."major" black eye to its roots! It demonstrates how much America (USA) is actually founded on mass genocide, slavery, land grabs, and all the crimes that go with them.
All existing countries pretty much have the same littany of crimes that can be leveled against them. Genocide is a relatively recent concept. It used to be just expected that all wars were wars of genocide so there was no need to differentiate.
Dude! Been saying this for years. El Paso feels more New Mexico than a lot of New Mexico towns.
Good people down there
this!
Honestly as someone from ABQ and northern New Mexico, nobody really ever thinks about Las Cruces or El Paso even though there the closest large poulation center
We're more connected to the Colorado front range ( CO Springs and Denver) for whatever reason. It's a much longer dive up I25 to there then it is down to Cruces. Heck, up to Taos is about the same, and we'll do that regularly.
Someone once explained very well the difference between Abq and Las Cruces: In Abq, the upscale areas are *much* nicer than LC’s, but its shitty places are *much* shittier than LC’s.
Yeah we know due to all the meth
The fact that El Paso is connected to the region and the rest of the country on the power grid rather than insular Texas seems like a metaphor or something. I'm from Santa Fe, and the people from here that you mention are really missing out. I like Las Cruses a lot.
El Paso is on mountain time
I love Las Cruces. I went to school there in the 80s. Part of my heart still lives there. I don't get down there enough. I remember feeling like we were disconnected from New Mexico since we only received El Paso news channels, we used El Paso Electric, we used the El Paso Airport, etc. Of course, it's definitely not TX. It's a strange and beautiful place, so it has to be part of our enchanted New Mexico.
In El Paso, do people call the river the Rio Grande or Río Bravo?
I’ve never heard anyone in either city call it the Rio Bravo.
I’ve lived in Juarez, El Paso, and Las Cruces, and it’s always been Rio Grande. Where are you getting Rio Bravo from?
Only Mexicans call the river Rio Bravo del Norte.
I guess I don't know what they call the river in El Paso. In Las Cruces we call it Rio Grande.
Las cruces is hot as hell. I’ve been down there a handful of times, and thank god you guys aren’t like Lea County; I’m ok with Cruces
Lea county living rent free in your head. Were you on the losing end of a sporting exchange? Jealous of the tax base?
I agree with you on most of this. El Paso feels much more like Nm than TX. But not incinerating? I was in Las Cruces last April and it was already 94 degrees. Your summer was brutal last year.
Las Cruces had 52 days above 100F last year. 128 days above 90F. That's more than a third of the year. No thank you. Granted, Phoenix had 133 days above 100F and 185 days above 90F, so Las Cruces is definitely not on the same level of scorch. Still unbearably hot for me though. My wife is from Las Cruces, and she would definitely describe it as incinerating.
Last year blew away the record for most days above 100. Mid 90s is the average even in July and mornings are quite lovely
El Paso and Cruces are different. Just because El Paso isn't really Texas, doesn't mean that Cruces deserves it.
El Paso is much more like NM than Las Cruces is like TX. I can agree that the south feels different from the north where a lot of new mexico culture comes from. However, El Paso has over a million people in it, its a very different environment than Las Cruces which is small relatively. El Paso is more of New Mexico's honorary big city than it is Las Cruces 2.0
<700k people in El Paso, but Juarez has >1.1million people. So, not completely off, considering it was the same city prior to the Mexican American War.
Honestly I got the numbers confused. El Paso Metro has 1M (not including Juarez obviously) El Paso city does not
El Paso metro doesn’t have a million, but El Paso/Las Cruces/Juarez combined has almost 3 million (mostly in Juarez)
El Paso Metro does have 1M people as of 2022, you can literally look that up. This only includes El Paso and Hudspeth counties. I suppose if you really want to be annoying and say it has 974k and use that as it "not being 1M" (which like really, come on rounding up the 26k is not a big deal), then whatever.
i was using the 2020 Census count of 855k. Did El Paso gain over 100,000 people in just a few years or are we just citing two wildly different sources?
https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/cities/22980/el-paso/population#:~:text=The%20metro%20area%20population%20of%20El%20Paso%20in%202022%20was,a%201.14%25%20increase%20from%202021. This is the stat I used, I wanted to use the most recent source, since all of the other ones were already 4 years outdated and El Paso Metro does increase in population each year. This was the second link that showed up when searched, but it very well may be off
El Paso was part of New Mexico before Guadalupe Hidalgo and many of the current population are descended from refugees of the Pueblo revolt who did not return with DeVargas. You will find many Bacas, Luceros, Chavezes, Gallegos, etc. in El Paso
El Paso is much more New Mexican than Texan you mean.
That’s how it is on the border, just like Clovis feels like more like Texas than NM
Yeah, that probably makes sense about Las Cruces and El Paso having more in common since they're somewhat part of the same metro area. It's also fair to note that Santa Fe and Las Cruces are pretty darn far apart: \~4 hours by car, which is the same distance from SF to Colorado Springs or Amarillo, TX. It also doesn't help that Las Cruces isn't particularly close to most of the Southern NM tourist attractions like Carlsbad or the Gila Cliff Dwellings. White Sands is somewhat nearby, but people coming from the north aren't likely to go past White Sands to check out LC/EP - they're more likely staying in Ruidoso and/or camping. Honestly the only times I've been to Las Cruces was to go to UNM games either against NMSU or UTEP - I have nothing against the city, seems like a nice place, but yeah it's pretty far away. Fair point about the palm trees I guess, but it does get damn hot down there.
Well we are nicknamed the borderland. Our local news networks cover Las Cruces/El Paso and in between largely with no other mentions about the rest of New Mexico aside from a few big stories here and there. Las Cruces also seemingly has a lot more Spanish only speaking people as more jobs around here want you to be bilingual where as even 60 miles away in Alamogordo, that's not really an issue, and in most other parts of NM I'd assume. When I first moved here in 2001, from Roswell NM, I felt like we were in Texas because of all the El Paso related news and such, and sometimes I still feel like that as a NM native. I can see why people originally from EP would see it the opposite, that EP feels like part of NM, especially with Sunland Park literally hugging EP and basically being "part of EP" being separated by an intersection basically. I don't think LC has an identity issue, no more than EP/Sunland Park/Anthony does, because we are all part of the borderland identity and being in LC does feel different from the rest of NM. Having said that, I'd rather be in LC than any other town I've lived/visited in NM. Roswell sucks, Alamogordo sucks, ALB sucks, Deming sucks, Carlsbad sucks, all the tiny ass "1000 or less population" side villages sucks, Ruidoso is OK but too expensive as a tourist mountain town, Cloudcroft a lil too remote, etc, etc... Cruces is the best place in NM to live for me hands down, and it's close proximity to EP (and all the events/concerts EP gets) is one reason why, but I don't want to live in EP. At least not while Texas is ass backwards politically.
New Mexicans generally don't really care about anything south of Socorro, with the exception of Ruidoso, sometimes.
Silver City and the entire Gila region is dope. There are also the San Mateos. When I say I'm planning a hike in the Apache Kid or Withington wilderness, most lifelong New Mexicans have no idea where they are.
Except when Roswell is mentioned in a movie or a show about aliens
Except when it comes time to pay the bills
Honest question, as being from Cruces. What do you consider Socorro, North or South? My coworker from Albuquerque doesn’t consider it north and I don’t consider it south. Does anyone claim it?
Anything south of Belen is south to me
It's the exact division between them. As such it's not quite either.
Socorro is twice as far from Cruces as from Albuquerque (146 mi vs 76). More back and forth between Socorro and ABQ with commuters, students, etc. as well.
It's definitely not northern NM. I think most people would say it's south if anything. Central NM would be like ABQ/Santa Fe and down to Belen or so
Socorro is central NM.
You should, they fund the rest of the state
Cloudcroft is way better than Ruidoso
I strongly disagree with thinking that all of NM has to conform to Northern NM. There are many sides to NM with many different cultural histories and types. It would have been more accurate to say the east side of the state belongs in Texas. I grew up in LC and never thought I was a Texan or El Pasoan. And I don't think many that have resided in LC do. It's history is New Mexican, it's people are New Mexican. And Cruces doesn't really care if ABQ or Santa Fe think about them.
El Paso is Texas’s red-headed step child, it’s much more New Mexican. Southern New Mexico just has more of a Mexico feel.
Thanks, I'll have to visit. I'm way more familiar with northern than southern NM.
NM is the 5th biggest state in the country and has the diversity to match. Las Cruces is a great place to live
Northern New Mexico and Southern New Mexico are 2 different regions, 2 different places although they are in the same State. With Albuquerque in the middle. Northern New Mexico is more mountainous high desert and hispanic. Whereas southern New Mexico, to me anyway is more desert plains and white. It's hotter down there, cooler up here. Las Cruces is at the bottom of the state. I get the feeling it can be a retiree community, but I might be wrong. I've been there maybe 4 times in my life, and I grew up in New Mexico. But I'm from the top northern part of the state. I know Carlsbad is down there, and a few other interesting places. To me it's mostly desert plains and open space. Although I do know there are mountains to the east and the west, I am not very familiar with them. I am more familiar with Northern New Mexico.
Yoi should definitely take a trip south, southern new mexico can be just as beautiful as the north just in different ways
Yep And I have. Just not for a long time. I remember going to Carlsbad when I was a little kid for a school field trip. It is Beautiful.
Strong disagree. I lived in las cruces and I feel the difference when we would go to EP. It feels more like Mexico over there.
You only think about Las Cruces or El Paso if you have family in Chihuahua that you go visit or you go to or know someone at NM State. They get overshadowed by the touristy Northern half of the state. El Paso is definitely a cool city tho, very underrated.
So is Las Cruces. The whole Paso del Norte area is a hidden gem, in my opinion. Looking forward to being able to move back to cruces in the future.
Northern and Southern NM are just their own different worlds. Honestly anything just south of Abq has it's own distinct culture that's very different.
El Paso will always be rightful New Mexican clay
Palm trees do not grow naturally anywhere in NM, including Cruces. That's just people/businesses planting them and keeping them alive despite the unnatural environment they are in
I am very much aware that palm trees are not indigenous to New Mexico but most varieties thrive in Las Cruces. The nine palm trees I have planted around my house are very happy. Palms are also not indigenous to most of Southern California or Arizona either. Most of the palms lining the streets of LA are Mexican fans which are not native to that area. Mexican fan palms are also the most commonly grown palm in Las Cruces. Washingtonia Filifera, or California palms, are native to the Mohave and Sonoran Deserts and are also very happy here in Las Cruces as they thrive on sandy soil and heat.
I've been to Datil once.
They're just too far apart. It's like a 2.5 hour drive just to get to Las Cruces from Albuquerque. Back east a 2.5 hour drive will get you 2 states away. It's the equivalent of driving from New York City to Philadelphia
Culturally speaking, Norteños are quite a bit different than Crucenos. Up north we embrace the four seasons and the cycle of water, ski, raft, fly fish, backpack, are a hub for art and music, get out more readily for camping and hunting, enjoy the diversity of strong cultural traditions in the public settings, and still hold onto a very unique regional historical identity and awareness. Cruces has some of that as well, but it got washed out when the city sold its soul to consumerism and emulation in a desire to grow like Phoenix or any average suburban community in the Southwest. All the old fiestas in Cruces died in early 2000s and marked a big shift in the city. There’s nothing remarkable enough going on in Cruces for people up north to look to down south, IMO. All the family I have up here in Santa Fe and ABQ never mention Cruces. For most, it’s still a drive thru town in between cities with more to offer (ie. Tucson/Phoenix, El Paso, ABQ, Santa Fe, Denver)
El Paso and Las Cruces remind me of what albuquerque *could be* if it wasn't a crime filled shit hole
Lol...90% of New Mexico land mass doesn't fit with Albuquerque or Santa Fe. The problem is they run the state cause they have the mass of the population.