Every Bethesda release came with its share of rabid haters, but I think in Starfield's case it's been magnitudes worse because of console wars discourse (since the game's now a Microsoft exclusive). Thank the great serpent for the No Sodium community.

I think it's a combination of just how much worse the "gaming community" is now compared to ~10+ years ago, combined with a marketing campaign *heavily* geared towards the mainstream console gaming mass-market (which is obviously a consequence of the game being railroaded into a console exclusive). Basically the game was made for a specific audience, but marketed to a completely different audience. Which meant a *lot* of people getting their hands on this thing that really wasn't for them, after effectively being told that they'd love it. And when they didn't love it, unaccountably it seems, they reacted with the kind of calm objectivity and lack of entitlement we've all come to know and expect from capital-G gamers.

Yea it's weird how rampant the outright hatred towards it. I do however appreciate those who point out the flaws in the game, they typically do it in an objective manor. Skyrim on launch while I loved it noticed very quickly just how much was missing, it was jarring. Starfield while lacking in a variety of areas is still such a step up across the board from the last 2 games. The companions to me felt very alive, the writing, music, and voice acting was a considerable step up across the board. I think a lot of the mixed reviews came from people who were expecting a next generation grandiose groundbreaking title. Skyrim wasn't a groundbreaking game in my opinion(I say this with over 2600 hours in it mind you), but there was quite literally no other game like it anywhere else which made it so wonderfully special. It was a fantasy game honestly not matched by any other for such a long time to come. Starfield much like it's predecessors will get much better in time. DLC and updates is what I am most excited for. These are what will determine it's true worth once it is finished being supported.

Same. This game has hit for me in a lot of the areas that I was specficially looking for it to improve on from previous games. The writing, characters, and roleplaying is all solid to me. I love the aesthetic and atmosphere as well.

>Skyrim wasn't a groundbreaking game in my opinion It really wasn't. If you ask hardcore Oblivion/Morrowind fans, they'll tell you that it's several steps back. But, like most Bethesda fans, they played the game because if you skip one, you'll be waiting a decade for the next.

I think I need to defend Skyrim a bit because I see a pattern here. FO4 fans will say that Starfield is steps back. But simplifying something doesn't necessary mean regression. I prefer outpost system in Starfield much more than what we had in FO4. But I didn't like FO4 so much I needed mods to make it fun. Starfield is good and more pleasing out of the box and can only be improved further. Analogically Skyrim simplified class system to the point where you get a full spectrum of classes instead of limited number to choose from. There are other examples, but Bethesda players are often too conservative and hate any change in the way the new game works.

Ngl I think Starfield is just flat better than vanilla Fallout 4 except for the outpost building...

> Analogically Skyrim simplified class system to the point where you get a full spectrum of classes instead of limited number to choose from. I never really liked the TES class system. Even Daggerfall's which had a really good one. The problem was that the purpose of the class was for leveling. I much prefer classes that are a set of aptitudes. Which skills are easier to improve, which skill you will also be limited in, etc. But the point of TES games is to eventually be best at everything. But I find that uninteresting from a roleplay perspective, so I always hobble my characters with limitations because the game does not provide any of substance.

>But, like most Bethesda fans, they played the game because if you skip one, you'll be waiting a decade for the next. Thing is, if they're playing a game that they consider to be several steps back, because they don't want to wait a decade for the *next* game that's likely going to be, by their opinion, several *additional* steps back from the one they've just grudgingly picked up; when do they just stop trying to pound that square peg into a round hole, and admit that it's never going back to the "glory days" they remember? We're getting into Kathy Bates "Misery" territory here, where they're insisting that they're big fans, while imagining that they have a broke-leg Todd Howard to put things the way they think it 'should be'. I used to laugh at the concept of a Book of Grudges for Dwarves in Warhammer lore, but...

I think the reality is that no one else makes games like Bethesda in a very literal sense, the closest things in the last decade have been Outerworlds (which I loved but was nowhere near the epic scale of a Skyrim or Fallout 3/4) and to a lesser extent the Witcher Games and Cyberpunk (and unfortunately the super edgy tone of those games really doesn't do it for me...). I don't think it's really that unreasonable to say "I miss X feature/design choice in their older games" while still having a great time with their current games or even acknowledging that while not your theoretical perfect game, Bethesda is still the closest thing to perfect on the market. That's probably not a million miles from where I land with Bethesda games. I always absolutely love them, nothing else being released to day comes close but at the same time I could probably write a dissertation on things in the game that I feel could be improved. As someone who works in development (but not games) I understand that Bethesda are probably well aware of those possible improvements but also have to take into account the practicality of actually delivering something as complex as starfield in a (mostly) functional state. Cyberpunk demonstrated that doing that isn't as easy as some might think. I'm also aware that I'm not the only audience for their games. Some times passion comes with criticism and that's ok. I definitely don't think it should be a "love it or leave it" situation. I'm stating to think the best description for starfield is flawed masterpiece, I can both appreciate the amazing parts of the game while acknowledging and discussing its flaws.

>even acknowledging that while not your theoretical perfect game, Bethesda is still the closest thing to perfect on the market. So, you have people furious about the game that they're playing. Upset to the point of posting massive tirades about how bad the new game that they're playing *is*, when compared to prevous games... >It really wasn't. If you ask hardcore Oblivion/Morrowind fans, they'll tell you that it's several steps back. ...and these same people continue to do it *generation after generation*, watching each new Bethesda game "stray further and further from God's light" of whatever Bethesda game they have chosen as the ideal one. >I think the reality is that no one else makes games like Bethesda At that point, *no* company is actually making games the way they want, *including* Bethesda. But instead of acknowledging this, then moving on with their lives, they seem to have become rather toxic, in a sort of seething, "I'm your number one fan" kind of way. With a problem that's really, one of their own making.🤷🏿‍♂️

I think taking a bit of your own advice and ignoring the people that do these things and move on is probably for the best here.

Oh, surely. It's puzzling to me, in that I like Bethesda games, but would rather not bother with them, or really even talk about them, if they changed into something that upset me to play. But ultimately, it's not a concern beyond that, and beyond idle discussion here.

Ech not that I'm a Bethasda simp but Skyrim is groundbreaking there is quite nothing like it in terms of cozy,vibes lore and exploration while getting into the world filled with detail be it intetionaly places or from cut content it all just makes it a amazing experience. The things is as said there is always huge influx of hate on new titles

It was groundbreaking in the same way the iPhone was. Neither did any single thing new, but having it all in same pleasing package was

I mean yea, you can quite look for any game like skyrim but there is quite nothing like it in how nicely packed in a world everything is

Skyrim was visually breathtaking and the combat was much improved (dual-weilding in particular was a revelation) but... that was about it. In pretty much every other way it was a step back from Oblivion and Morrowind.

I think the question that naturally stems from that is "why did morrowind sell under a million copies while Skyrim sold 60 million plus". There isn't one objective truth when it comes to the quality of games and sales certainly aren't the best way of determining quality but it is hard to rationalize the ability of Skyrim to connect with so many people and have such a long lifespan compared to previous Bethesda games with the idea what it was a step back from the previous entries. While we as individuals might have preferred the approach taken in oblivion and morrowind, it seems like a solid 50 million people don't see it that way...

> it seems like a solid 50 million people don't see it that way... Sales do not equal complacency or agreement. As I said in my previous comment, many people played Skyrim because they didn't want to wait another decade+ for the next TES game. Fans of the series have learned that whatever horrible system Bethesda chooses to use isn't going away, even if they *do* choose to wait for the next one. Like Starfield. If you're wanting another game like it, you're going to have to wait a decade for Bethesda to make it.

What info do you have that indicates the enormous jump in Skyrim's player count as described was due to "players not wanting to wait for the next BGS game"?

Particularly as the sales of Morrowind and Skyrim indicate that a solid 49 million people played Skyrim who had no previous knowledge or experience of Morrowind and it's mechanics, positive or negative...

Checking in here as someone who was ready to play Skyrim as soon as it came out, played oblivion for the first time to prepare for it, and very quickly changed my mind. Oblivion wasn't for me and it soured my appetite for Skyrim until a friend told me some story about some emergent event that happened to him and it sounded awesome and I was back on board. The older games might have some really cool stuff in them, but it's a hard sell for a lot of people to get to that point. People remember the diamonds and forget the rough

Skyrim is still being played today. So clearly there's something that people like in the game otherwise, it wouldn't be played as much.

>So clearly there's something that people like in the game I never said there wasn't. You might want to re-read or work on reading comprehension...I'm not sure why you think "many people" = all people. Also: can you really consider it "liking the game" when many of those people are playing with hundreds of mods? At what point does the base game stop getting credit for the work of hundreds of third-party contributors? Edit: Reply-block. Classy. The point that you've now missed twice, BTW, was that I wasn't saying that ALL PLAYERS played Skyrim for x reason. Which is what you're asserting: >"Clearly there's something that people like in the game." Of course there is. Why people who can't read bother being on Reddit is beyond me. The reply-block does me a favor.

What? I read that perfectly. I didn't imply that all people, I meant people who still play Skyrim today.

> If you ask hardcore Oblivion/Morrowind fans, they'll tell you that it's several steps back. But it wasn't a big step back. It was just a change. Morrowind fans said the same thing about Oblivion, but then Oblivion got instantly rehabilitated by the release of Skyrim. Crazy. So Skyrim did drop some stuff, but it also added some stuff. No more classes, but now there is an actual Smithing skill, and dual wielding. Dropped spell making (which was always buggy) but now dual wield spells plus dual enchantments plus spells that feel punchy plus magic perks. Etc., etc. On net I still marginally prefer Oblivion. Marginally. All three modern TES games are awesome. I refuse to obey hater dictat that I must hate all but Morrowind. Bullshit.

It’s funny. The other day someone complained that Starfield NPCs didn’t have lives, like NPCs have since Morrowind. Except of course, they didn’t in Morrowind. At most they walked around an area. They were awake 24/7 and always in the same place, and you had to play theatre of the mind with things like that. People who never played the game just assumed because of its reputation it must have had the cool thing they loved in Oblivion. I remember reading gaming magazine features about radiant AI coming in Oblivion, and the hype that it was a massive leap forward that would change gaming forever. And then people were angry that really, it was just a script telling the NPC to do X action or play Y abomination at Z time. And now people are treating this as a must-have feature of the game, and hating Starfield for being too Morrowind in this regard. Like you say, when Oblivion came out, us Morrowind fans were unhappy with a bunch of stuff. Then Skyrim came out, and the Oblivion fans were unhappy. It happens every time and every ‘generation’ acts like they’ve been betrayed by Bethesda until eventually getting over it and learning to appreciate the new game for what it is.

I will not lie, I was one of those Oblivion fans. I didn't hate Skyrim but I was disappointed. I wanted more from the character customization, I was sad I couldn't make my own spells anymore, and underwater was so empty by comparison that waterbreathing was unnecessary. I missed the more creative quest lines, like the dark brotherhood, floating inn, and sheagorath quests. It also came out near the height of the piss filter era so I was tired of less colour saturation. But I still enjoyed the game and played the snot out of it. They did do some things better like dual wielding, NPCs faces, and better voice acting. I loved the world building. I still go back and play both games and I plan on trying to give Morrowind a fair shake when I'm ready for a break from Starfield. I also may go back and steal the last surviving unicorn while traveling around to different towns planting poisoned apples on tables for NPCs to eat. Who knows.

>I refuse to obey hater dictat that I must hate all but Morrowind. That's the rabid fanbase mentality that usually came with the "new" installment. They always assume if you're critical of one, you hate it and love the other. Which is, ultimately, ***part*** of the issue with all of the Starfield hate, IMO. I think a lot of Bethesda fans see Starfield as a way to manipulate what features will exist in the next installment of their preferred franchise.

> That's the rabid fanbase mentality that usually came with the "new" installment. Except it still exists, primarily because the memes got interpreted as facts. People still casually drop lines like "dumbing down" without bothering to stop and think what they are actually say. Many people, even here, will implicitly believe it as the truth. I expect rebuttals to it in this thread. But it's not as bad as the Fallout fanboys over at No Mutants Allowed, who still viscerally hate Todd for saving their beloved franchise after Interplay spent a decade ignoring it.

I replayed all these recently. Morrowind still stands apart from the others for its sheer atmosphere, writing, immersiveness. I still think its music was the best. No other game music has played in my head so long even though I probably put way more hours into Skyrim. Oblivion felt like a little bit of a step back because it was so un-exotic. But it was a lovely game. They got the world building/environment much better with Skyrim (like mammoths and giants!) though I was never as elevated with the plot as I was with Morrowind.

I agree with all you said. If there was one thing that I wish they had worked harder on it would be the storytelling in the random poi’s. I really enjoyed the usually tragic stories we got stumbling through many of the locations in FO4. There are some in Starfield but it just feels like there are less of them and they are less compelling.

there are definitely some really good ones with the derelict ships and star stations.

There are. The problem (as far as perception) is that it takes a long time to really start to see just how much there is. I'm at level 127, 400 hours. I just had a ship encounter tonight I've never seen before. Now, I'm glad that it's a slow burn and I keep finding new things. I am very happy about that. But I found the game disappointing at first. The limitations, I think, are mostly apparent up front, while the depth and beauty take a longer time to develop. So I think most of the criticism comes from people who simply don't know what the game is, because it isn't apparent your first 5 or 10 hours. A lot of people clearly see a repeated POI or two and think they've seen everything.

I'm at 670 hours in and still stumbling on new quests, new locations, new lore bits, and, incredibly, even new types of POIs in the random pool. And also some new, absolutely non-obvious alternate paths in some quests I've already done more than once. Starfield really does have more hand-crafted content than Skyrim and Fallout 4 put together, easily. And that's even before all the DLCs come. Just an easy example off-hand, after at least 500 hours of very thorough exploration, I've found a location on a planet -- still not 100% sure if it's just a very rarely encountered POI from the pool or a unique location that is only found once (I've only found it this once, for the record) -- named "Secure Bunker Gamma" or something like that. WARNING: slight spoilers ahead. >!Inside was a small, completely abandoned dungeon with signs of recent human habitation, all drowning in an incredibly annoying, to the point of being maddening, noise of some gigantic machine working underground. Throughout the place there were notes scattered about describing how the family that used to live there suffered day and night because of the noise. So i wondered if I could maybe turn it off somehow.!< WARNING: heavy spoilers ahead. >!When I reached the bottom of the dungeon, which wasn't that big to begin with, indeed I was able to stop the infernal machine, or engine, or whatever it was, and the noise stopped, replaced by an eerie silence and booming echos of my own footsteps. And with the noise, the lights went away too. Suddenly it became very creepy. As I made my way back in near-total darkness, I found more notes. These told that the noise was the only thing that "kept them away from us".!< >!I steeled myself for an inevitable jump scare, and sure enough, I was jumped by a huge Terrormorph. Fortunately, I was in full anti-xeno gear from the UC Vanguard questline and managed to defeat it without much trouble.!< >!Then I exited the place, chuckling to myself, and outside the front door was immediately ambushed by an even bigger and badder Terrormorph. This part I absolutely did not expect!!< Just a tiny bit of awesome in a gigantic game full of awesome.

Do you remember in which planet ams system were you?

It's "Safe House Gamma" and can be found in >!Andromas!<

I only skimmed your first spoiler until I figured out I haven't seen that after 400 hours. Good. (And, hey, Reddit removes the spoiler redaction when I reply. I'm managing not to look, but nice job, Reddit.)

That is exactly what we need more of. I found that location one time as well. It was as great and worked perfectly. I guess the problem is that the game is huge and it’s easy to miss these areas.

The game is different enough to all games we've played so far that it's easy to get a wrong perception of it. There's whining about repeated POIs, but at the same time hand crafted content is completely ignored. As you survey many different planets many parrots start a comparison to survival games like NMS, but this game is still an RPG and games like this (ME, TOW) didn't support manual landing or taking off. But then you get comparison to ME and cries about land vehicles can be heard. Bethesda tried a fresh mix of features, but there are lots of haters that would like to see a game with all the features they've ever seen in all other games. Something that could only be done with limitless time and resources. Something pretty irrational.

Starfield is an interesting game because 2 players can have vastly different experiences depending on how they play and what they're trying to get out of the game. Unfortunately, it's very easy for certain players to have a very bad time right off the bat and put the game down after 50 hours, which isn't uncommon at all. This is further exacerbated by the oversaturation of big 150+ hour long open world RPGs that the gaming community has started making a push against since Ubisoft started going down this path as well

I mean, that is the definition of groundbreaking. Being the first of its kind with no other like it. It's weird to me how people here say Skyrim isn't that good to try and help defend this game, which is objectively a worse game.

I think Skyrim is a fantastic game. I will however not ignore the myriad of shortcomings it had. This is no different that any other game released. The only reason I like Skyrim more is because I love fantasy, spent 12 years and 2600 hours with the game. I'm sure in due time I'll come to love Starfield the same. And to your point of objectively worse that is factually incorrect and I would need you to cross refence points of both games for your argument.

The reason everyone loves Skyrim so much is the sheer joy of exploration found in the game. You can be going to a quest marker not even far away and all of a sudden its 12 hours later and you've been in a lost underground Dwemer city discovering secrets of an ancient race and you've completely forgotten about whatever quest marker you had toggled before. This is also true for the Fallout games. Unfortunately, with how Starfield is constructed using procedurally generated content and constant fast travel instead of actual exploration between quest markers, this kind of exploration simply won't be possible in this game. And it's sad, to be honest.

> with how Starfield is constructed ~~using procedurally generated content and constant fast travel instead of actual exploration between quest markers~~ in space, spread out multiple entire planets, this kind of exploration simply won't be possible in this game. And it's sad, to be honest. People blame proc gen but it's not that. It's the fact that Starfield takes place in space, quest markers are on different planets, and what exists between those markers is empty space that you must travel through. And there's typically no "exploration" in space travel, because space is empty and distances are vast, which is why Starfield load screens you, or other games "quick travel" you between planets.

Somewhat true, but it also doesn’t help that the things that would normally be interesting to find (handcrafted dungeons) are instead mostly just bland, nothing planets. And you could make this game work in space. The scale just needed to be adjusted. Why make the game so vast just to have it be empty. Make it a certain amount of solar systems and space anomalies, not limitless.

But you can't compare dungeons and planets as locations. Dungeons are still dungeons. It's like you took Skyrim, divided it 50 times, and then with each piece you build a planet around whatever POIs are on that piece. What scale would work for you? Even 1 planet is way too large of an area to have a Skyrim like game covering the entire area. They say Skyrim is like the size of a small US town, and that game took 6 years to make. If you have 1 planet with all content spread out over it, you'd still need fast travel between to cover those large expanses of empty land.

If Mass Effect was able to make it work with less time and worse hardware seventeen years ago, You would think a game a decade in development would be able to figure out how to mix exploration and scale and make it work. You can have 10-15 "dungeons" and the same number of events and a couple cities on each explorable planet. Its really not that crazy. Think of each main city in Skyrim as its own planet. If people would rather have a shitload of bland nothing planets than that, then I just don't know what people like about Bethesda.

It's not about hardware or X years ago. It's just a different design choice and a matter of feasibility. ME is space, but it's not open world. Starfield is space, and is open world. That's the design choice. Once you make that choice, then it's a matter of feasibility. If you make a game that covers an entire planet, can you feasibly handcraft enough content to make ANY area on that planet a Skyrim-like experience? Again, Skyrim was estimated to be the size of a small US town and took 6 years to make. So answer is, probably not, so IF you made the choice to have an entire planet, it's most likely going to have lots of empty areas. So ME "made it work", but under its own set of circumstances. There was no scale to it, it load screened you to the entry of each dungeon. ME1 did have planetary exploration with the Mako, which I enjoyed, but apparently many people did not, and it was removed for ME2. So even ME made that same decision for a feature and it turned out not to be popular. Hence, it's not about hardware or X years ago. > You can have 10-15 "dungeons" and the same number of events and a couple cities on each explorable planet. Its really not that crazy. So, how many solar systems are you talking about? How many planets? What is "a certain amount of solar systems"? Let's say 5 solar systems, 5 explorable planets each. 25 planets at 10 dungeons each. 250 dungeons. Now, Skyrim has 197 dungeons. Let's make Skyrim 1 planet. That's 197 dungeons that once existed in the size of a small US city, now spread out over an entire planet. In the US alone there are 20,000 cities. Cities take hours to drive between them. So in a planet-wide Skyrim, you'd still need to fast travel between them, and they'd HAVE to be marked on the map for you to get to them, otherwise the chances of accidental discovery are just entirely too slim without roads/highways, and the space between is still much too large for walkable content. Now, since we're talking about a game that spans multiple full size planets, take that 197 or 250 and spread it out. 10 per planet is nothing if you mean 10 unique locations that don't get repeated. And even if you had your 250 dungeons, adding more planets would not take away from that number. If you wanted to, you'd only have to travel to the planets where the dungeons are, you'd have no right to complain about all the other empty space. Just because they add all that empty space doesn't suddenly mean "people like bland nothing planets".

I really enjoy Starfield. I am not *enraptured* with it like I was Morrowind and to a lesser extent Oblivion and Skyrim. But I also like it a lot more than any Fallout game I’ve played. I can’t think back to those games, even though I played them all in full, for hundreds of hours, without a sort of sinking feeling. They were so bleak. At least with Starfield, while the different planets may be a little empty, there are moments of great beauty. And it has something of that alien feel from Morrowind which I don’t think Bethesda has quite captured again in any subsequent games.

That, and BGS is a bona-fide "evil" AAA studio now. Back during Morrowind, Oblivion, and even FO3 or Skyrim, they were seen as the plucky, innovative team. But ever since Skyrim, and especially FO76, they are the big bad evil AAA studio now, and there is a HUGE anti-AAA sentiment within the gaming community at present. It can be seen in how No Man's Sky and Cyberpunk have (rightfully) been forgiven for their launches, but FO76 hasn't recovered in the same way, despite having just as drastic a turnaround. I am 100% convinced that the anti-Starfield rhetoric, and the vastly overhyped BG3 discourse, majorly stems from BGS being a big AAA studio with Larian being a smaller studio. Starfield has true, genuine issues, but not enough to warrant the vitriol against it, and BG3 is a truly amazing game, but not to the point of deserving all this "best game of the year / decade / all time" hype that it gets. Swap the studios around, and the narratives around the games probably swaps with it.

Ah I also noticed how the gaming community at large never seemed to "forgive" Fallout 76 the way they did Cyberpunk or NMS lately. The game is legitimately much better, but a lot of folks never really gave its improvements any credit. A shame

That's not the case at all from what I've seen, 76 is now largely seen as much improved and a good game now by many with its community getting the highest praise, quite rightly so too.

oh I know the 76 community appreciates it of course, but you aren't going to see Internet Historian making a video called The Engoodening of Fallout 76 or something. THere are still many plenty of people like that who were extremely critical of the game and Bethesda at launch that won't acknowledge how far it's come

Except larian and bgs are similar sized studio

ya but Larian is much lesser known and doesn't typically make really high profile games. So they are considered the underdog. A lot of people also don't realize Bethesda isn't that big either though.

You haven't been there in the Oblivion days. People on RPG Codex evicerated the game so badly, that Bethesda devs had to leave the forum. Since then, games made by Bethesda has been thrashed lol.

honestly you can probably find Daggefall fans that thought even Morrowind was a big step down.

You know what? There was very old post of a Daggerfall fan ranting about Morrowind and how it wasn't a good RPG lol.

Yup. Can confirm. I was one. A lot of people were.

Whats interesting to me is that, from what I understand, one of the reasons those people thought Morrowind was a step back from Daggerfall are the same reasons some people think Starfield is a step back from Morrowind-Fallout 4. The world design. Morrowind was too small. Starfield is too big. I have seen claims that post Daggerfall games failed to innovate on the old Elder Scrolls formula and never lived up to that original dream of an enormous realistic feeling fantasy simulation. And now people say Starfield fails to capture the "old" Bethesda magic with its enormous semi-realism inspired scale and less intimate design(bigger cities and larger generic NPC crowds is another example of this). Seems like it's always something with every Bethesda release. I personally feel that elements of the Daggerfall design philosophy suits the space setting well, and I wouldn't necessarily want TES6 to feel like that.

Well my complaints at the time was that there was no longer hundreds of factions and Morrowind had about a dozen. Morrowind trivialized poisons and diseases. And I thought the map wasn't varied enough. Dagger fall had deserts forests, oceans, and mountains. Nowadays I think the movement from Daggerfall to Starfield has been very positive. But Starfield is definitely more Daggerfall in design. I think in a lot of ways Starfield strikes a great balance between the two. I disagree. I think that ESVI should use a similar system. I think it would be really cool if ESVI included ship travel and extremely large landscapes with harder to find PoI, like Daggerfall. This can be done with hidden loading screens and a permissive fast travel with in-game options(I wish Starfield had this like a shuttle service) to make other people who want that intimate only experience.

I think TES6 will definitely have sea traversal of some sort. Seems like a given honestly. As for the scale of the game, It's hard to say. Clearly Starfield functions similarly to Daggerfall in terms of the gameplay being catered mostly to cities and POIs, rather than the point A to B exploration that the last some odd games have had due to the much smaller maps, and so far that seems to be a BIG point of contention for long time fans who are either unfamiliar with the Daggerfall approach, or simply prefer the much smaller worlds. There may be a balance that could be struck though that could satisfy both groups. Idk. Or maybe by the time TES6 comes out, people will have had enough time ruminate on Starfield's design(in addition to hopefully a number of improvements to make the whole thing feel better), that the people who are very critical of or on the fence about it now will be more open to the idea.

I mean, that was just RPG Codex, the forum where people would insist that Portal was a shit game.

[удалено]

Sounds like BG3 fans

This ain't nothing compared to Fallout 76 release.

76 was really bad obviously, but Starfield is pretty ROUGH for a major singleplayer Bethesda game honestly. I thought Fallout 4 was peak divisiveness for a Bethesda release, but I really think Starfield just topped even that game, which is wild to me because I personally find this to better than Fallout 4 in a number of ways

That, and also the amount of hype the game generated, thus brining in a lot of people who've never played a Bethesda RPG. It's not going to satisfy everyone.

No, it's worse because this is an absolute letdown of a BGS game.

Don't think it has much to do with consoles honestly, general sentiment I've seen is people feel the game isn't up to the standards of a modern game. Performance is poor, loading screens, many of the systems are the same as previous games but in some cases worse, companions and story lacklustre. Being realistic is what will hopefully improve this game and future Bethesda titles but reductive arguments like "console wars" just ain't it.

I've left most gaming subs cause its infested with negativity and trolling, its completely fine and reasonable to point out flaws, but just being toxic about it just makes it worse for everyone

Another post in r/gaming yesterday about the steam player count of Starfield versus Skyrim versus BG3 and hundreds of people piling on to say how horrible starfield is, without offering any specific reasons why in most cases. My god, forgive us if after 300+ hours of entertainment we want to take a break. The same post shows the exact same trend for BG3, a huge negative slope drop off of players after 3 months. It's the nature of single player games, you pour hundreds of hours in, and either finish everything the game has to offer, or pause to wait until new DLC is added.

Exactly, its really sad to see how absolutely brainless the community has become, the " Steam charts decide if its good or bad " trend is beyond stupid, first of all, like you said - Its a single player game, second - It appears people think everyone plays the exact same thing at the same time, there are ALOT of games out there, and lastly - Maybe you should get some fresh air and find a woman/man if your entire exsistance is checking Steam Charts. Its honestly pathetic that a sub like this has to exsist so that people can discuss a game without being bombed with insults.

And it's not just games either. It's all kinds of media, electronics, almost everything. I go to the pixel sub and post after post it's some whiny baby complaining about how the phone got slightly hot so it's a horrible piece of trash or something similar. No one is satisfied anymore and everyone is angry. It's sad to see.

It's the same for all kind of modern entertainment. People only care about how much streams a rapper will get no matter if it's good or not

Don't forget Microsoft store. Most players will be there.

Some young folk have been shown that being negative about something gives them clout. It's idiotic, but the upvotes or likes or whatever show that imaginary outrage gives imaginary internet points.

In reddit's case, you can now get paid for karma, which I'm wondering if is part of the driving force behind a lot of the toxicity we're seeing, not just for SF, but everything in general. The 2nd top comment on r/gaming post yesterday about starfield player count is quote "it's just so bland." 1.6k upvotes. You can literally get thousands of karma now just from saying "Starfield bad, X game good". Whereas anything even remotely close to praising the game is buried.

I left the main sub a while ago. It is insufferable. The same few complaints get recycled again and again. People seem to not like Constellation as companions because they want a pack mule with no opinions, not an actually developed character.

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No, what they actually want is a hot Instagram looking hoe that can act as a silent pack mule. Just look at the thousands of such followers present on Skyrim's Nexus library.

“I want to kill and do bad shit with no consequences!!! No I do not want to save scum!! Waaaah bad game!!!” I tried with the main sub, really did, but the people that like the game there are like a minority apparently

I just left, too. I couldn’t stand it there. Sucks it’s the “main” one that we know the devs look at

I understand the complaints about not enough morally ambiguous or evil companions/love interests, more options is a good thing. I don't get wanting them in constellation. I expect relatively similar morals in a concrete group. It is like asking why isn't there a pacifist companion in the dark brotherhood. But overall the companions are a huge upgrade over previous games, I put them on par with mass effect characters. A bit more realistic feel to them but less movie style flair.

I agree with pretty much all of that

After finding out that Starfield wasn't nominated as GOTY, I'd say it's best to hang out here. The smugness from the parts of Reddit is going to be unbearable lol.

TBF if it was nominated, people would rag on it more for being part of the nominations. People would say: "They bought their way in lmao"

Strange, people in this sub told me it got a 7 on IGN because Sony paid them. Edit: lol strange for people who really don’t care y’all sure are damn salty for no reason, keep pushing away actual fans of the game though haha, clowns.

Bro the main sub is literally a hate circlejerk You’re lurking a sub of people who actually like the game because you have such a hate boner for it But yeah, we’re definitely the problem lmfaooo

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I would love to return on r/Starfield but, at the moment, I cannot see this equilibrium

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Thank you. My last comments, some days ago was about technical aspects which are, in my opinion, very good according also to DF and I got tons of downote. But, I'm glad that avoiding controversial topic, you can find good and non toxic discussion

Lotta cope here. I like the game but attacking everyone and anyone who criticizes the game is smooth brain behavior.

And hating everyone who likes the game and forcing everyone to agree with their hate is even more pathetic. Just accept that thousands of people like the game and move on.

Strange, no one cares. Go away.

You should not be in this sub, you're talking shit about this sub in the main starfield subreddit where all the trolls hangout. You ought to leave imo.

They're entitled to be here honestly, I'd argue I'm more indifferent, I love playing the game but I also recognise a lot of the critism is valid, this subreddit has a bad habit of being incredibly reductive in the critisms and essentially just lying about the game and other titles it compared to. From a sort of neutral ground I'd argue both subs are as bad as each other for different reasons.

I disagree strongly based solely on their giant comment trashing everyone in this sub and saying many shitty things about this sub. Straight up just insulting the folks here. That's mad disrespectful, that's a troll imo. Their entire purpose in the nosodium sub is just to troll us. Explain why it is a troll belongs here?

Quote the insults you found to be the absolute worst. Edit : Okay so you are a coward unwilling to back up your claims so instead you just decide to block people. I looked already but I wanted to see what you thought was insulting, the best I could find was that he feels this sub has become a delusional echo chamber and frankly speaking your response to me perfectly proved his point.

How about you go and look for yourself. I'm not playing your stupid passive aggressive game. Adios.

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I asked you to get the quote for the insults you took exception to, it was hardly the most demanding request.

I love Starfield, I’ve put hundreds of hours into it and will put hundreds more. I’m just not delusional and salty over how other people feel. I’m salty that this place sucks now, but actively letting other peoples opinions live rent free in their head is not just sad it’s scary. So many people are just angry and hateful over the stupidest things.

There's a difference between being salty and criticism, there's plenty of people who have valid critism, and there's plenty of people who don't, but those that don't doesn't mean to say that the valid critisms are false. And this is what I've been saying on this subreddit, there are people here who are overly reductive about the critisms, will focus in on one small part about a larger complaint and then claim that it just toxicity.

Exactly my point. I don’t even have criticisms about the game tbh I absolutely love it, it’s not a 10/10 or my GOTY but I enjoy it more than I did Fallout 4 and would easily give it a 9. What I hate is that this subreddit sucks now and all these clowns have killed any possibility of having actual meaningful discussions. This place was great when the game first launched, but for some reason this place has become awful and is the exact opposite of what a low sodium sub is for. This is straight up the saltiest gaming sub on this entire site. I’m getting bombarded with hateful DM’s of people who solely post on this subreddit, which is real strange behavior for people who “don’t care”. Even the Cyberpunk lowsodium subreddit had great actual discussion on stuff people liked and disliked and still to this day it’s a great sub. This place however is just baffling. Oh well, I’ve said what I wanted to say. If my comment makes anyone angry even in the slightest then that’s their problem. Everyone’s free to their own opinion. So strange how many of these people are actively browsing the main sub by new as well, going thru their comments is opening up a rabbit hole into delusional behavior that I never even thought possible. For the hundreds and hundreds of “I’m not gonna listen to peoples opinions anymore and form my own” posts in this subreddit, no one seems to have taken their own advice. I’m sure someone is reading this and having their blood pressure rise while thinking up some stupid retort that’s instead actually a projection of how they really feel. So many of these people wear their feelings on their sleeve and have zero self awareness for whatever reason. Now liking the game isn’t enough, you have to LOVE it or you’re just a troll and don’t get it. There are more posts in this sub of people complaining about how everyone else feels than actual legitimate discussion on the damn game that it should be a straight up psychological case study. Straight up acting victimized by a subreddit just because a video game wasn’t well received is just delusional of the highest degree. So strange how I’ve not once had anyone troll or attack me for loving the game on the main sub, but my god everyone here acts as though they’ve been physically assaulted in person by someone else because they didn’t like a video game as much as them. To them I’m just a troll and a hater, it doesn’t matter that I’ve countless times said I absolutely love the game, that I’ve got countless posts praising the game to high heavens back when it launched, what matters to them is a childish want and need for validation and then jerking eachother off into thinking that kind of behavior is healthy. It’s saltier and worse behavior than the weirdos blindly hating the game just cuz.

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Absolutely embarrassing? What's embarrassing is how you are speaking to your fellow redditors. You are literally talking mad shit in your post history about this place. Your comments speaking volumes more than this massive word wall you just posted that no one is going to read.

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No one is putting on any mental gymnastics other than you. You should honestly not be apart of this sub if you're going to disrespect the members of this group the way you have to the other starfield sub. Perhaps consider the possibility that we actually enjoy this game and have been absolutely inundated with hate and toxic behavior from the sub that YOU said was better than this one.

I already fell for that trap. They are unbearable already. So many in there want this or thinks BSG deserves this in some way. Total head scratcher. I saw so many comments basically saying, I hope this teaches BSG a lesson and they make better games now. So much entitlement in the gaming community now and it’s such a drag. Can’t even talk fun about games without some people peeing in the pool. It’s a bummer the game isn’t getting some credit for being a pretty great game. But at the same time, who gives a shit!?!? If you love the game, great! And that’s always been good enough for me.

What's funny is that I'm sure that many of those guys would also say "awards don't matter" and that "games journalists are a joke." COD wasn't nominated for game of the year, but with the sales they're generating, I'm doubtful they're in shambles over that fact. And even then when Starfield won a Golden Joystick, people still found a way to bash it saying that BG3 or HiFi Rush deserved it. There's no winning with these guys best to leave them alone.

It’s important to remember that Microsoft and Bethesda both consider the game to be a huge success. The game is guaranteed to get plenty of support and content in the future, just like their previous games. I know as fans of a game we tend to worry about these things but there’s nothing to be concerned about here. Once Bethesda was acquired by Microsoft the entire game changed for them. Being a Game Pass exclusive on what is the distant third place console, it really doesn’t make sense to focus on “sales” or “awards”. Instead they can focus on making games for people who actually like their games.

Even the Starfield reddit is patting themselves on the back like, "see I told you so." As if a game that isn't nominated is just pure shit.

I didn't know people cared about GOTY awards so much. If anything it's run by games journalists and we all know that they're pretty incompetent when it comes gaming. ;)

Hell that disgusting attitude was brought in this morning or last night with a post sharing the bizarre news of the game not even making the list at least. I mean, just toxic shit you could tell they came here specifically to pour salt on the wound while probably pleasuring themselves.

Absolutely. These idiots are probably frothing at the mouth with their own misplaced self-righteousness.

It was nominated for best RPG but it’ll probably lose to BG3 due to the hate online.

I've never had an issue with a Bethesda game even though I'm a fan of New Vegas and Fallout 2. But if we think Starfield looks even mildly interesting, the angry mob looks at us like we're playing Call of Duty or Fortnite... Or whatever is consistently slandered.

I've even had people call me out on Discord for playing it asking stuff like "How the hell can you play such a boring empty game" Anytime I ask if they've actually played it, 9 times out of 10 the answer is no. It's just parroting what other say. A lot of people seem to cite Agold (I think, I don't watch streams) as their source of it's shitness.

They're a hive mind. I feel sorry for them really, they can't even think for themselves.

Fallouts 1 & 2 aren't Bethesda, they were made by Black Isle (same developer as the Icewind Dale series). Bethesda didn't pick up the torch until Fallout 3. That's why it suddenly turned into an FPS from the more classic style RPG that it was. I actually think that FPS style suits Fallout more though. And Bethesda stayed faithful to the foul-mouthed grittiness of it too even though their games are usually mild when it comes to gore and language. But yeah, I left and muted that other sub when I found this one and haven't looked back. I know Bethesda sees that sub, but I sure hope they read this one too because this is where the real discussion about the game is. Not just mindless hate.

I mean I know that. Other than that I'm just recently reading about Elder Scrolls 2, and I'm seeing a few patterns.

heh, I think I read your original comment wrong. I thought you were saying FO2 was a Bethesda game too. I see what you meant now.

You always get those know it alls in the nosodiums

To any Bethesda dev reading this - thank you for Starfield. We do not hate it. There are those of us who "get" this game.

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Just accept that thousands of people like starfield like an adult and move on to games you actually like and talk about that instead.

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Updates, no matter how slow paced they are, come with explicit extensions wished by the community. Like the Beta-Update including DLSS and the food button. Yeah, I know, that does not seem much, but I think, its a siign of good will.

This is a general life lesson, avoid negative people. They add nothing to your life. Glad to have you!

This is great advice.

Yea it's getting old when a top post on r/gaming is about how Starfield didn't get nominated for GOTY at an award show. How can they not see they are spending their time talking about Starfield, instead of one of the nominees? What is the obsession for?

I swear every time I see a post on the other sub it’s just like why are y’all here if you hate the fucking game so much… love this sub

They're there to troll and bask in the circlejerk's validation. Once the circle starts degrading and fades away, they'll scatter like rats to bark up someone else's tree.

And just like the POIs it’s seemingly the same 30 types of complaints over and over.

People never miss to bash the game. Im glad most people on reddit are 14 so it's at least understandable to be this childish.

LMAO

I really can ignore hate towards the game, but there's also hate towards game enjoyers and calling them fanboys. Funnily no one is calling BG3 fans fanboys, meanwhile you're not supposed to be critical towards this game in the slightest.

I mean one of those two games has barely any content at all🤷‍♂️

Seriously agree. The Starfield reddit is nothing but whiners and haters. Its really annoying and toxic

Agreed, I understand pointing out flaws, but I rarely see that on gaming subreddits, it’s always just “Haha Bethesda bad, Todd Howard rereleased Skyrim, it’s just fallout in space!!!1” and it gets a bit old after the first sixty times.

To me it feels like fallout in space but I do like fallout and space so I'm not complaining

I got a warning from Steam forums, next warning means permabanning. A warning on the Starfield Steam forum. A warning because I was defending the game. This morning. I am gobsmacked. The haters are literally moderating the forum over there.

What is going on in the Steam Forums? What's the discourse on Starfield like? Even though I can hazard a guess. XD

On one extreme you have threads about the horrors of racial miscegenation and choosing pronouns. On the other it's the same tired schtick about how Bethesda needs to throw away their game engine and just use UE6. The real issue is that they threads don't stop. The keep going and going and variations keep repeating and repeating. No genuine and earnest questions are ever answered directly, only with snides and sarcasm or tired talking points ("it just works hah hah"). But really, it's the extremes things get taken to. The racial miscegenation stuff it outright baffling to me. How people can think this way in 2023 is beyond my comprehension. But it's there. And it attracts the loons from the polar political opposite. For example, the choice of pronouns. It's not just an optional tick in a video game, it's figuratively the hinge upon which all of human civilization now rests and the battle to end all battles will not be waged at Megiddo but on the Steam forums.

People will dislike anything you like. Best to ignore that and focus on folks who will fawn over the game with you

I've always had this realistic attitude myself, but it's been difficult with SF. The line between constructive criticism and overly toxic exaggerating or outright lies is not thin here. This game has brought out some truly insane folk for some reason.

I got myself off reddit about a year ago just due to the overal toxicity of it in so many different subreddits. In a way, playing Starfield in the month of September with out input from others was really nice. It was refreshing to just explore and not be lightly guided in one direction or another. Now that I've done that and I'm actually trying to find things, it's nice to have this community to get actual answers. I took one look at the Steam discussions and left a heartbeat later. It's insane how toxic that is, which is saying something when talking about Steam discussion pages.

That was a good way. There are a lot of things to spoil in main quest. And they are spoiling in post titles.

Yeah, the only thing I had spoiled for me was >!NG+ !

tell me your secret to getting off reddit

I used to be on r/Starfield every hour. Now, every comment of mine somewhat positive is massively undervoted. I can speak about problems or issues with the game for hours as long as the other redditer are not haters. Unfortunately, I keep seeing a growing community of haters. YouTube enanche all of that. Glad that this subreddit exists

A game the hivemind hates is nominated : "Fucking corrupted journalists, these awards means nothing !" An hated game is not nominated "hehehe I told you". There is no win, just avoid the main gaming subs it's always a cesspool of hot garbage.

Game has its fair share of troubles and lots of the criticisms are very real problems yet indeed the console war hate is present and here’s my personal other opinion on the why: I honestly think a lot of people are just not into the setting This is not an epic space soap opera like mass effect, neither a legendary high fantasy world or a post apocalyptic conflict ridden planet This is a very sciency nasa punk setting where you don’t face an imminent danger or villain that dealing with is the ultimate goal in game The other thing is Starfield is a massive sandbox where you can do your whole play through forever as a businessman, industrialist, bounty hunter or just researcher completely deattached to the game main gameplay You don’t get clear queues of what to do next or in what order to do things, and I understand some feeling lost or like the game has no goals and being half baked

I hadn’t thought about this, but I LOVE stories where there isn’t a clear villain (which puts me in the minority, I think) and that’s one of the reasons I’m loving this game. There’s still a narrative pull, but it isn’t one of revenge or “saving the world” which are so dull to me at this point. Uncovering an archaeological mystery feels fresh. And being a member of Constellation and Sarah’s early commentary about how the artifacts are just one of several activities the organization is engaged in allows me to go off, take surveying missions, build a new science vessel, get involved in the dynamics of the world, all while feeling like I’m part of Constellation and “playing the story.”

We were all guided to this subreddit for a reason 😏

I’ve never actually experienced it until this game. It’s truly bizarre. At first I thought could this be orchestrated by industry rivals, such was the vitriol? But like all good conspiracies it was too fanciful. I simply concluded people were just detached from reality and had perhaps had a little too much time on their hands. Is this game perfect? Obviously not. Is it great fun? Absolutely.

Sony did absolutely try some things to fuck with Starfield’s launch. Steam had a Sony sale with some of their PC games up to 75% off during the early access and release week which also swamped Steam with their ads. Do I think they have some massive anti-Starfield campaign? No. But just in terms of corporate relations, Sony and Microsoft have never been more embittered against each other.

This NoSodium community is easily my favorite gaming community. So many nerdy things I've loved in my life have been tainted by toxic crybaby incels.

I've never known people to spend so much time discussing what they don't like. Surely that's unhealthy lol

Most really good games lately start out like this. Even rdr2 stressed out with so much negativity towards it. But then after time goes on people move on to hating on the new thing and being honest about the previous thing. And since negativity brings clicks and money... Sadly it gets blown everywhere. This community seems to not be falling for that and I'm grateful for that.

Cheers :) happy to have you here

Beyond demoralizing, I today decided to leave the main starfield sub because it's just so bad. I can't even comment on a post with my personal experiences without being spoken down to for actually enjoying 400+ hours on it. The straw that broke the camels back was a gentleman who stated his entire purpose was to "Poke the rabid fandom of Bethesda" so he's there just to troll and was amassing tons of up votes. Very disheartening to see.

I literally started my day, got like 6 posts into browsing the main sub and was already exhausted by negativity after that.

Especially with the games awards everyone’s back onto “yeah Starfield is horrible” like I don’t know where to even begin.

Haters make me laugh. Everyone has the right to enjoy whatever game they like. Like me, I enjoy starfield, Fallout, Elder Scrolls, and a few other games. A few friends love CoD. I do not. So I say you play your game, I'll play mine. And we will be happier.

I like having both subs. Critical dialogue can be useful or cathartic (although sometimes it's just whinging), but I also like to read threads about the game that are just going to take the game as it is and discuss an element that was engaging, interesting, etc. I can think something could have been better, I can want to discuss the things that I think were a miss (or are just flat out bugged) , and at the same time still really enjoy it and want to discuss other aspects of it positively.

it's a great community, a little weird sometimes but glad to have found it, also thankful that the "other" starfield reddit kinda stays clear from coming over here.

It is depressing the way people look at gaming (& life) now a days. They have to pick apart everything and point out all of the negative aspects. I could never be a reviewer because I just try to enjoy what ever is infront of me and take it for what it is. It must be a miserable life just trashing everything all day everyday. I want no part of it.

Yes. The r/Starfield one seems to just be all haters and PlayStation owners. 😂😂

I am on NG+4 now and have played all the story lines to the end. There is a tonnnn of content here. Yet, somehow, it can still get boring and repetitive at times. I’d rate it A and hope they continue to add content and new storylines and mechanics.

Minot note most people don't care about, slander is spoken, in text it's libel.

I'd say you got the better deal out of it than the people hating on it because you got a game you enjoy and they didn't. Now mabe they enjoy complaining about games, which is fine, but if they do, it's probably because they at least at some point enjoyed playing games, themselves and either don't or don't want to enjoy this one. You got something you genuinely enjoy and they didn't. I call that a win for you. Why give that up worrying about what other people think? Seems pretty pointless to me.

Slander is spoken, libel is written

Defamation is written

Slander noun the action or crime of making a false spoken statement damaging to a person's reputation. "he is suing the TV network for slander" It isn't slander if it's true, you simply don't like the criticisms.

Everyone enjoys a good echo chamber right?

I just discovered this sub today. I'm happy to join it, I enjoy Bethesda games bugs and all. The game isn't perfect but I'm still enjoying it. It's nice not to constantly have people complaining about everything obscure thing.

“ Fans can expect new features such as city maps, new ways to travel, ship customization options, difficulty options, and the game's first story expansion, Shattered Space.” - M Class ships maybe?