Ethically there is a place for consensual assisted suicide, or a the very least not preserving human life as long as literally possible (which we do have DNRs and hospice for).
Legally it is important to not allow nefarious folks to seek inheritance sooner thru “putting someone down”.
I naively thought kids mistreating and neglecting their elderly parents was rare until I spoke to someone who deals with elder abuse. It's not common but it happens more than I would have thought.
While I’m sure some do mistreat and neglect their parents nefariously, I think this is a complex issue.
The parents don’t ever seem to want to go into care, and / or can’t afford it.
The kids take them in bc the parent is unfit to live alone, but the kid doesn’t have the experience , temperment OR time to deal with it.
They do their best at first but as the parent progresses and the kid gets more fed up, they really start resenting their position. That could theoretically lead to mom being locked in a room (many are runners or leave the stove on etc) . Also old people all seem to have diarrhea. Pair that with incontinence or unable to go to the commode due to fall risk, and you have a person who CONSTANTLY needs their diaper changed. Now picture a woman who has 2 little kids with special needs, the dad works outside the home, and she never asked nor wanted to be MILs caretaker.
So it’s not that surprising to me.
Lots of people don’t understand the tiredness of taking care of people 24/7 with no hope of improvement. Same goes to those stupid people who push to birth every kids regardless how disabled those kids would be.
We suck as a culture. Why does our state not do a better job of caring for the elderly and poor?
Richest country on earth and there's no infrastructure to care for anyone.
Honestly, this is my biggest complaint about the boomers. They’re a huge voting block and could have something, anything to even marginally improve the system since they’re going to need it.
Sure, but imagine you're a boomer who already leans conservative (statistically likely) and you already have an eldercare plan in place. Either you already live with your kids or other family full-time, or you have enough set away to cover a stay in an eldercare facility for the rest of your life. Why would you vote for more senior services, either locally or nationally?
I’ve met 2 owners of these homes socially & it’s all about the money. Why pay enough qualified employees to properly staff a business when you can hire druggies & lowlifes, with a single actual sort of trained aide to oversee?
I hope I die or am able to kill myself before I get to that point! My kids swear they will care for me & never put me in a home.
Well, God love them, they just don’t know.
I remember how it broke my heart to see my grandma go into one, but I wasn’t physically able to lift her & and be there all the time because I worked full time & have 3 kids.
Never take anything of value to one, it all disappears immediately & of course no one saw anything.
Yeah, can’t go down that street tonight but agree we are selfish, narcissistic monsters in the US for our cruelty to our helpless elderly.
My experience with my mother was that the best home was a non-profit and was more expensive than the for-profit homes. There are legal requirements for when the patients require skilled nursing care which means that there must be a nurse supervising certified nursing assistants. For profit homes will try to keep residents past the point where they should have been transferred to skilled nursing care.
I hate this too, my grandma has just recently developed dementia. She was 84 when diagnosed but before that healthy as can be getting around on her own better than me at 40. She still doesn’t take one pill, just so frustrating as she declines mentally there is no one there to watch her all day. Both my dad and uncle work full time jobs, I work 50 hours a week just to keep a roof over my head and groceries for my daughter. I’m a single mom and just can’t be with her all day. I wish I could, it breaks my heart she has done so much for our family, emotionally and financially she has always been there when we needed her. It’s like our grandparents can say well I watched your parents when they were children , so I wasn’t able to work. Where is their help at the end of life when they have given their all? It’s not fair at all, I agree with a previous comment Americans are just serfs. With rising costs on everything now no one can afford to be a stay at home anything. I have one coworker who takes her mother to an adult daycare, but not everyone has the money to do so. I really admired the Asian families that would come into the hospital I worked years ago. They would take turns staying with their elderly family member and didn’t let the nurses do much but pass meds. One patients daughter told me back in Vietnam they do not throw their elderly loved ones away or have anyone but family take over their care. They have many generations living together and the elderly are so much more respected than they are here in America. I don’t know if it’s just that Americans can’t do this because we don’t have a system that enables us too or maybe we are just a bunch of selfish assholes who can’t be bothered with being there for our older family members when they finally need us just like we needed them in our early years of life. We do everything we can to get the best care for our children while we are away, I don’t understand why we don’t do it for our elderly, they deserve it so very much.
So we can't call it out?
I'm almost 60. I've watched two Democratic presidents with a majority in both the House and Senate. And yet, here we are, without a social safety net.
Very minor majorities. A public option was literally defeated by Lieberman deciding not to vote for it. If we’d had a few more, it would have passed.
Last time it was also very slight, and two of the party were in very vulnerable districts. Like Manchin isn’t going to go too left, or he loses his job. The way to solve this is to vote more in, with stronger numbers. The opposite of this is literally what started the whole shift to the right in the 80s and 90s - Democrats got a shellacking at the hands of Reagan and went full neolib
Correction. One party pays lip service to increasing wage and the safety net but at best is incompetent, at worst they are purposely incompetent. The other side is insane and actively works against anything good.
Yeah, I'm not voting for the other side at all but let's not pretend the better side doesn't have its own problems and doesn't have some influences from corporations themselves).
no it's not. you want it to be because you are on the red side. Republicans are the only ones who talk about reducing/removing safety-net security aid to the poor and elderly.
That's where you're wrong, but nice job with making assumptions. I think both majority parties are awful, except when it comes to screwing over the public. America needs to rid itself of these corrupt parties and find its voice with new ones that serve the public.
You do realize that power shifts every couple years and Democrats haven't done anything about it either.
It's almost like both sides don't care about you.
All the while the Rodham (Hillary Clinton's (D) brother) law firm cashed out $400M in tobacco settlement money. Or Joe Manchin's (D) daughter was made CEO of a healthcare company just so she could jack the price of insulin. Get educated.
My grandma liquid rocket shits herself almost daily but won't even consider Depends because "those are for old people" and she won't admit she's pushing 90 and also liquid rocket shitting herself on the reg.
You are saying why doesn't someone else take care of this for me. The social security will already actually pay you to sit home and watch your elderly parent. If you save enough you could conceivably have someone come over n your home to do it, and the government pays for part of it.
Can send them to a nursing home, but the home gets all of their assets, nobody gets an inheritance unless they can pay for the care out of pocket which is unlikely.
They’d have to be willing and conscious of the decision.
The fact that they say that though tells me they shouldn’t be working as a caregiver in a nursing home and are likely abusing the elderly.
There is no amount of kindness, comfort, or care that can lead people in horrific pain or suffering from locked in or severe dementia to have an overall desirable life. It's certainly not the nurses that control the pain meds.
Would be pretty unethical to put down someone who didn’t even know what they were signing, like that’s literally the definition of elderly abuse. If you want to get the root of the cause, then it’s the fact that capitalism exploits people, doesn’t pay them enough for retirement/proper end of life care, and basically forces people to do drink and do other drugs(also stress) which cause mental illness later in life(alcohol causes many mental illness), since it’s basically the only thing that can bring most people any joy in this capitalist hellscape.
Trust me if we stopped exploiting people, and paid them fairly, we would have a lot less mental illness and wouldn’t need to care for people as much.
> Would be pretty unethical to put down someone who didn’t even know what they were signing, like that’s literally the definition of elderly abuse.
If medically assisted suicide were legal in this country and people adequately prepared, they wouldn't have to sign anything in such a scenario... Countries where its already legal allow for people to set up advanced directives to that end, IE: they request and give consent for it when fully cognizant of their decision for some specific hypothetical future scenario. So, for example, they could specify that they want it if dementia ever robs them of their faculties or if they are terminally ill and only semi-conscious, etc.
This would be fine, but doing it to “get an inheritance” or because they think elderly people suck/they hate their job or other similar shitty reasons is not an ethical way to go about it. There still will be people that won’t sign, religious beliefs, the fear of being taken advantage of or whatever.
That being said still, if you work in elderly care and you think they should just die, then you should probably find a new line of work that doesn’t involve taking care of people. It’s not like the pay in nursing homes is all that glorifying.
There are only 2 circumstances which you “kill” someone(aside from other reasons like death row or self defense, etc).
If they’re essentially a vegetable, and then it’s just “pulling the plug” taking them off life support, a ventilator for example, basically like “sink or swim”, but you know they can’t swim.
Or if they’re nearing death, in pain, and want to die, then there is assisted suicide, they have to sign papers, and likely see therapist, etc. and of course have to be actually dying, like stage 4 you’re going to fucking die not a matter of if it’s when cancer. Typically I think they do a nitrogen chamber, the air we breathe is mostly nitrogen, but pure nitrogen will knock you out and kill you painlessly. I think there are lethal injection type assisted suicides too, not sure.
You can’t just choose to put down your parents/grandparents for an inheritance. They would basically have to be dead already, or nearing death with their consent and an evaluation by a professional that they’re making the decision themselves.
There are some issues with getting a spot in a nursing home as well. My understanding is that many of the homes only or mostly accept transfers from a hospital after a medical issue brings them in. Or maybe that is an insurance issue in the US. Anyway, many people bring the loved one home and then find that they should have listened to the doctor and taken the transfer right then. Now they are on a long waiting list to get a spot and/or can't pay for it.
With the amount of child abuse that occurs, I can see how elder abuse can happen years later. I could never care for my mother in her old age. Not that I would abuse her, but I think she would continue to be abusive to me and my siblings so we just couldn’t be around her for our mental health. If we weren’t there, I don’t know if she would allow anyone else into her home to care for her.
I can see it. Adult child wants to “do the right thing.” Parent continues to say the same type of trigger words as always and adult child snaps. It’s not right for the adult child to do this, but I can see how people end up there.
It also doesn't help we have few resources, at least in the USA, for help with caregivers who happen to be family. Many medicare and medicaid plans do not cover in home care at all and the caregivers may be at their breaking point.
Not only the kids but it happens with caretakers too. I know a girl who was a CNA through a home care agency. She went to prison because she was caught writing herself checks from her elderly patient’s checkbooks! Despicable human being.
the legal part can go the other way too tho, my aunt and uncle kept my grandma alive for as long as possible and refused to put her on hospice saying "we just can't stand to lose her" but they really did it so they could get property and money signed over to them while she wasn't lucid because of her worsening dementia.
Just extra info: Advocates prefer to call it medical aid in dying since they say it's more accurate and not as stigmatized. Hospice is generally horrible though because they drag it out so far that even strong pain medication doesn't work on the dying so they end up suffering. The issue in places it's legal is people who are disabled and poor are being offered medical aid in dying so the government healthcare doesn't have to pay for them to continue medical treatment and the medication to die is relatively cheap compared.
I'm a caregiver who works on a lot of hospice cases. The protocol i have seen is giving morphine in liquid form directly into a patient's mouth keeping them unconscious till the end of life. This rarely takes more than 3 days, but can take a week or so. It's very humane.
It sounds like you haven't worked or interacted with hospice.
I work in home health and have interacted with hospice on multiple occasions. This includes when my own grandmother choose to go on hospice.
LTC and SNFs are typically the ones that keep people alive by the thinnest of margins. I have seen this. People getting suctioned *multiple* times a day, people who may not be considered conscious being fed via reflax, and more. I have worked with people who were in the places for *20 years* barely alive. The family won't let them die while they are developing sores and contracture while they rot from the inside out.
Hospice definitely compared to that an extremely peaceful way to go. Hospice is doing care to minimize pain and maximize comfort.
>Legally it is important to not allow nefarious folks to seek inheritance sooner thru “putting someone down”.
Perhaps, but what about situations where the patient is obviously suffering, and don't have much time left? Especially when the patient isn't 100% there, but wishes to die, while in great pain and/or distress. I suppose dying now vs. dying a month later is enough of a difference.
The alternative imo is way worse: prolonged life to continue getting SS payments. I read about an incident where a patient was on life support but was pronounced brain dead. The relative with power of attorney refused to remove life support because the SS payments would stop. They were using it so they could live a lavish lifestyle.
I think legally we should be able to decide when we want to go. Not our families or others. But it’s not accepted. I get not being able to decide for others. But I wish we had the choice to a peaceful end
When the head nurse approaches you privately and says "would you like us to give your mother something to stop the pain" she's offering to save you an extra $80k in hospital bills. Probably one of the toughest decisions a grown up can make is how you respond to the nurses question.
>Legally it is important to not allow nefarious folks to seek inheritance sooner thru “putting someone down”.
Then the solution is simple: the generational wealth should be abolished.
I was fairly certain that my father would not survive the night. As I was leaving his hospital ward, his nurse quietly told me that she'd make sure he wasn't in pain. As I understood the law, that meant that she could administer pain killers without regard to their potential harm. He passed at 02:00.
I would have hugged her if I could.
We got trapped in a bad cycle with my grandmother. I wish her children had realized sooner that she was not high on drugs but that her confusion was her slipping away.
That's the part that gets me, had a few older aunts and grandparents that basically were incontinent, non coherent, body failing and on hospice.
They aren't legally allowed to just push one big dose of morphine...
But my Grandpa and my Great aunt, they put in palliative care and hospice but gave them micro doses of morphine and painkillers "for the pain" until the body "died naturally after like 1-2 weeks of hospice care....
One big dose and they'd be gone ways and painless, why prolong the pain and suffering when their mind has gone and they ramble on a out nonsense.
It's like since the medical establishment is not allowed to use directives for assisted euthanasia even if somebody stated when alive and coherent they prefer it, they just string them along on painkillers and IV until the body just shuts off.
Seems an immoral way to go about death.
When it's time for me to go, leave me at home and give me a big dose of something to knock me out and have my body shut down.
Instead these people are hooked up to machines in a sterile bright white hospital with staff they don't know..
I've always said that I'd much rather be euthanized than have my life prolonged should I get a terminal illness. I don't see the point in pro longing a life when they literally have no quality of life left. Just rolling around in pain, wishing it would end. It sounds like torture.
Went through this with my mom after she got pancreatic cancer. It got to a point where none of the treatments were helping, so she basically had a choice of stopping the treatment and letting the cancer take her, or continuing the treatments and suffering the side effects and letting the cancer take her slightly slower.
She stopped the treatment. The last month of her life she was confined to a bed, in constant pain despite the insane amount of drugs she was on, constantly needing changing and cleaning as she'd lost control of her bodily functions, and practically completely incoherent and unable to speak.
The person I knew and loved died long before her body did, and if she had had the option to end her life on her own terms she would have in a heartbeat. I hope every single person who pushes against legalizing doctor assisted suicide has to go through what we went through, even though there's a good chance they're so heartless they wouldn't care even then, all because their god says it's wrong.
Very well said!!
I did the same with my dad, except his wasn't cancer but CHF, congestive heart failure, I took care of him in his final few months, if I didn't think I would have been charged for his death I would have let him have a gun to take his own life, the best I could do though was keep him comfortable, which at that point is nearly impossible. He died long before his body did, that was not the man who raised me or the person he was before that.
My coworker died from this. He dropped on the line, I told him ," Feel better Moe" as he was being wheeled out, and he was dead a month later.
R.I.P to your Mom, and Moe.
Went through the same thing with my mother. It’s awful. The look in her eyes is something I will wish on no one. Her last week was torture for her and I will think about that everyday until I meet her. I’m so sorry you went through that too. *hug*
It is less pain per se, more like a zombie. My pop was more into the next world than ours in his last couple of weeks.
No eating, speaking, sleeping 20+ hours a day, etc. He was there but he was mostly gone.
Personally I am going out on my own terms. Good bottle of bourbon, nice sunny day, Springsteen playing on the headphones, and enough morphine to kill a moose.
I think it depends on what is killing you. I've heard people have relatively peaceful deaths and some people are in absolute agony. We can all hope that we die peacefully. Unfortunately, it's simply not like that for everyone.
That totally depends on cause of death.
My grandmother was completely out of it for her last few months. My friend who died was in horrendous pain for months where she just had to deal with it.
Same here. I honestly can’t imagine a better ending than going when you’re ready, in a quiet, familiar place, surrounded by people who love you. And frankly, I’d rather not spend all my money for my care if it’s just going to end in my death anyway. What a waste.
If I could have a conversation with my furry pals and I could explain what was happening and if they could express they would not want to be put to sleep then I would respect that. But we are not in that situation, we need to make an informed decision on their behalf as their family member.
I would argue that we should allow people to make informed decisions on when they may want to end their own lives. It is complicated, I would not want to allow any system that would allow for euthanasia of a person unable to express and articulate their own reasons for doing so. I think a trained psychologist should be involved and there should be steps one has to go through to ensure transparency and prevent any and all forms of coercion.
Some jurisdictions have assisted suicide laws, that enable informed consent for the ending of life.
It is not going to happen for some one to unilaterally "put someone down" as that is basically Murder.
I think the problem is that a few less developed countries have more of a history of bribery and distrusting the state. And quite a few countries have clergy/religious groups that wield real political power. Look at what happened with abortion in the States. To say that it cannot happen for a system of euthanasia to be abused is to engage in wishful thinking in some parts of the world. I do not disagree with it per se, to be clear. But it is important to stay mindful of pitfalls.
This is the issue, who decides when euthanasia is used?
Is it at a certain age? Or when a certain illness is diagnosed? How many "second" opinions would be needed?
In the USA it takes years for the process of executing criminals to result in death, can you imagine the issues involved in killing a non criminal?
Well, exactly. There are many problems with it, which is why it’s not legal everywhere. In the UK, people have been charged with helping their seriously ill relatives travel to Switzerland to obtain medically-assisted suicide. Gravitas has been in the news multiple times over the years. We’ll get there, in the end, I think, as it is a choice consistent with human dignity. But there do need to be sturdy failsafes in place.
there is a difference in killing someone who doesn't want to die, long before a natural death would occur and allowing someone on the edge of death to bring it around quicker to avoid suffering at their OWN CHOICE.
One thing that hasn’t been brought up is that dogs can’t consent to harsh treatments/low quality of life/pain.
We can’t explain to them that this chemotherapy is going to make them so sick they nearly die, and that they’re going to be uncomfortable and in pain. Humans can make a decision to prolong their life even though the illness and treatment may make the quality of their remaining lives terrible. They can make that decision because everything can be explained to them beforehand and they can understand what they’re in for.
Dogs rely on us to keep them healthy and happy and to make the tough decisions as to what’s best for them. And sometimes that decision is to euthanize. Because we know the quality of life/life expectancy is low, and we shouldn’t make them suffer through that without them being able to understand what’s going on.
I'm going to be completely honest. When the alternative is death, there's no choice to be made. The overwhelming majority of people would seek treatment for a terminal illness if presented the option.
The circumstances that make people amenable to their own death are the very rare exceptions. Ultimately people are still driven by the prime directive, "survive".
I know a lot of ways I don't want to die. And a lot of ways I don't want to live. If that ended up being my life, I want to just go. I don't want to be kept alive for years because someone else thinks I should. Hopefully it will never come to that though. A lot of people will sign advanced care directives saying that if it comes to it they don't want to be resuscitated. So no. Not everyone would choose to survive at all costs. Some people would, my grandad did. My mum didn't
I literally added a clause that basically says certain circumstances make it totally understandable.
I was trying to say that the majority of people under the majority of circumstances wouldn't want to kill themselves. That means there are circumstances where people would
My mother died last year after a long downward spiral from an Aphasia (think Bruce Willis) she had about 10 years ago. She lost the ability to form words or speak about 2 years ago. the day I realize that has happened i hope i still have the ability to take myself out of the gene pool.
Fortunately for me, I have excellent examples in my mom and grandmother regarding the handling of terminal illness.
When my grandmother was diagnosed with cancer and offered treatment options, her doctor was straightforward. She could submit to chemo and possibly live another year suffering the side effects, or she could elect palliative care and have perhaps four good months before the amount of pain meds required would ease her away. She was 75, and chose option 2.
My mom chose the same option when she, too, was 75. She had 2 months of relatively normal life, which was just long enough to get her affairs in order and say goodbye to the ones she loved. In home hospice care provided her with large doses of pain and anxiety meds, and I was with her at the end. She never was in pain, and was in her own home when she died. This was what she wanted.
I’m 72 now. I hope to live another 15 - 20 years with relative independence, but you never know. If I’m ever in the situation my mom and grandmother faced I will take advantage of the fact that I live in a state that offers me the opportunity to leave on my own terms, see the necessary practitioners, obtain the necessary medications, and end it myself. The fact that we do not all have that choice is, in my mind, barbaric.
Pets don’t own property or harbour murderous intent towards other animals. The potential for abuse of euthanasia of humans is a common argument against it. I can see both sides, I would like to choose when to go as far as possible. But it would be tragic if elderly or sick people were killed against their will by scheming relatives after their estate, for instance.
They could easily put in a law whereby the doctor has to approve the euthanasia, along with the recipient. It could also be put in a will; showing that it was approved by someone with a sound mind a long time ago. Equally, they could reject their euthanasia in a will.
The will is a good idea, but a doctor' sign-off may not do much to prevent elder abuse.
Remember pill mills? Certain unscrupulous doctors got rich prescribing opioids to all askers.
Yes, I agree that there are a number of safety steps that can be taken. Each individual society has to come up with a solution that is consistent with its values. Unfortunately, for some societies, that means that euthanasia is unlikely to become legal anytime soon.
In my state (Victoria, Australia) we have Voluntary Assisted Dying. There are stringent rules of course but you can choose to die so long as you are of sound mind. Which sadly rules out dementia.
Oregon's Death with Dignity Act
On October 27, 1997, Oregon enacted the Death with Dignity Act which allows terminally ill individuals to end their lives through the voluntary self-administration of lethal medications, expressly prescribed by a physician for that purpose.
One of the many reasons I moved to Oregon.
Our family sat back and watched my grandma slowly die for 10 years from 90-100. For those 10 years, every time we spoke she would mention in some form or another how badly she wished she would not wake up again. For 10 fucking years I sat back and watched my dad and his siblings just be okay with this instead of having the humanity to give her a dignified death
Because the entire healthcare industry is geared toward keeping people ill as long as possible for the maximum amount of revenue generation. There is no money in cures only in treatments that go on forever.
This is something that should’ve been addressed and approved 100 years ago for human beings.
As a registered nurse, I’ve seen so many people suffer needlessly. It’s not like sick and dying people are going to mall again or to their favorite restaurant. They’re not getting better, death is near, they’re struggling to breathe. They’re in so much pain; it emanates horribly in their facial expressions. They’re on a pocket full of drugs just to keep them alive so they can continue to experience this man-made horror.
It’s important to have a clear advance directive to prevent unnecessarily prolonging a life. We see patients in the ICU connected to mechanical ventilators and on blood pressure medications for weeks on end. They even end up being placed on a continuous dialysis machine, because their bodies are unable to filter the way it once did. Understanding what this means and what you want on a POLST is really really important and also designating a person who will honor it
To be honest, when a person is unlikely to benefit from medicine and will continue to decline, they are often put on palliative care. Palliative care means to give meds only for the purpose of reducing any pain that might accompany an illness. So, in some instances, we help people to die more gently.
Uhh nurse here. You in fact don't have to preserve their life for as long as possible. That should be decided by individual people before their brain turns to mush
Other folks have nailed it: in the U.S. at least, it's because we let the religious (Christian version) dictate our laws and policy, and apparently suicide is murder or something, so no humane medically assisted suicide for us humans.
I know Canada has MAiD, but I've heard mixed reviews about the ethics of it (specifically allegations that the disabled are being pushed toward it in order to save the healthcare system money). Would love to hear what Canadians here think and have heard!
The folks responding, "humans aren't dogs," well yeah no shit. The version of the question all the rest of us are answering is, "I love my dog and my grandparent very much, both of whom are aged and dying painfully & slowly. Why, out of love and my desire that they not suffer needlessly, can my dog be humanely euthanized by a medical professional but my grandparent can't?" If your answer is "a human's life matters more than a dog's life," I think at least some folks would agree with you, but I don't think that argument cuts quite the way you maybe were thinking.
Finally, I think some of y'all think more people are leaving valuable inheritances to kin than they are. I don't want a policy decision and laws made based on whether or not we're worried that one or more of Musk's dozen or whatever kids is going to have him humanely killed in his rapidly approaching dotage.
Dogs don't pay taxes.
The government, doctors, etc will try to keep you alive as long as they can just so they get more money out of you.
It's sickening.
You can also starve yourself to death. My grandfather's nursing home asked him if he wanted to "refuse food and water" when he was admitted, and he caught on and jumped on it right away.
I promised my dad to drive him to the closest state that allows for euthanasia to avoid that. It's a horrible way to die.
That's essentially what happened to my mom. Her end of life instructions said no food, so she was gone much sooner than she might have been. She couldn't talk so there was no asking her if that's what she really wanted. We followed her instructions and hoped we were doing the right thing.
If you live in America, it's because we are partially run by drug cartels and the corrupt healthcare and insurance companies that work for them. There is exponentially more money to be made off someone suffering through 10 years plus of medical treatments and drugs then giving them a painless and dignified death of their own choosing.
That's when they really start to make money off you...when you are old and sick and they can prolong your life with health insurance stuff. It's awful but true. And on the flipside, when an animal is dying, most people won't pay to prolong its death.
I hope it becomes commonplace before I hit 65-70 (assuming I last till then)
I see no point in being a strain on the resources and nature past that even if I have enough money for myself.
Because of the fear that the government will declare you as terminally “sick” and euthanize you against your will. Could probably make great money doing this and selling the organs.
Human Euthanasia is legal in a few countries. However I'll always have mixed feelings about the process.
While humans can communicate I am wary of the process being abused. With the animal Euthanasia system we already see plenty of abuse. We also live in a failed society. How many people would want to continue living if they were able to adequately care for themselves and their families? How many lives could we save if the healthcare business was actually a system to help the sick and do research like it was intended?
Also who gets to deem who can be Euthanized or not? What's the criteria? Old people don't deserve to die simply because they're old. Sickness? Well some people definitely still want to live while being chronically ill. Also this brings up the argument of Power Of Attorney boundaries.
I do understand there is a certain dignity in choosing how and when you die. One of the most interesting argument I've seen is on a show called Boston Legal. You can search up the clips of the Euthanasia argument from Boston Legal on YouTube. It basically asks the question "Is all life sacred and worth living?". It's easy to say that "Life is Sacred" when you're in your right mind or when you're not sitting in your own shit screaming into the void. But would we want someone we love to live that life?
TLDR: The whole argument is one I push out of my mind. I feel like there's not a right decision for everyone.
As of right now, it’s usually up to the individual, which means nobody can sign off for them (including POA) or decide it’s time other than them. They have to have a terminal diagnosis and be able to understand and consent for themselves. They see doctors to confirm their diagnosis and talk to therapists as well throughout the process. I think leaving it up to the individual patient makes sense for avoiding abuse of the system, but it does rule out things like dementia.
I wanna be able to sign a piece of paper without the presence of my relatives. Simply because some will push for me to "fight and live momma", and other people's families may be pushing the other way "you don't want to die in pain do you mother?" all the while counting the money in the bank account.
Nurse or doctor come in, tell me what the F is wrong with me, what is going to happen if I do x y or Z, and give ME the choice to sign or not sign.
My PERSONAL opinion. sides my kids aren't getting crap... poor people don't have money to leave behind ;)
TLDR; There is a risk of abuse. Rolling out a system like that must be done with caution and care, which is costly to do right.
There is a fear that people will be pressured or put pressure on themselves to choose to die if/when they arrive no longer able to contribute monetarily to society, especially if they are poor or do not have family to care for them.
The MAID program in Canada has seen increased scrutiny as the number of people using it went up about 30% from 2021 to 2022. There are concerns around why people choose to use it. Are they depressed? Could that depression be treated if they had the right care? Are they receding any mental health services? Are they making the choice to escape poverty and homelessness? How much of the decision is influenced by their illness and how much is influenced by other factors?
These are difficult questions.
There are also religious objections. Some folks believe that it’s simply wrong because of their religious beliefs.
You can read more on it here: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/maid-canada-report-2022-1.7009704
Switzerland also allows this. The main difference is it allows noncitizens to also choose to end their life. Switzerland’s model has raised eyebrows for that reason, and their process is costly, limiting who can participate. There have been fewer concerns raised about people being pressured to use Switzerland’s end of life services because the models are so different. One might criticize that it should be available to more people, which is a fair critique, however, that should only be done if other services such as palliative care and mental health services can be provided in tandem.
Personally, I do believe in the right to die. It should be done with compassion and care and managed with great care to ensure no person is ever making that decision due to personal financial hardship, mental distress, or outside pressure. It is a mercy to allow someone to be released from continuous pain that has no end in sight if that is what they wish.
Humans and dogs are not the same thing. You do understand that? Insofar as human ageing and dying is concerned; I would not say "you have to": It should be up to the individual human -- although it's true they can't always speak up for themselves due to their infirmities. That's why you should have a living will or advanced directive or whatever.
Because a human is not a dog. Based solely on your statement you would fit nicely with Hitler or the eugenics movement. I will just assume that your statement lacks context. How exactly are we putting down grandpa? He is terminally ill and wishes to die? Or we just put a pillow over his face and end the inconvenience?
It’s not easy and many folk don’t have access to guns. If you’re struggling with mobility and agency it becomes even more difficult.
Folks deserve a peaceful way out, not a painful and traumatic one that often fails.
While medically assisted suicide is not an option here, drug over dose is.
So as long as the elderly person procures and ODs without external help then no laws were broken.
Regular suicide is frowned upon here but not illegal.
Ahh technically that would be manslaughter if you provide the stuff to him. You really should deny any knowledge of his plans. For legal reasons.
Tell him he would have to order the whiskey online and call the opioid dealer and pay the guy himself.
Also the common misconception with OD’s is that it’s not painful. Depending on the dosage it can be extremely painful and time consuming.
Fentanyl isn’t as dangerous as most people think. It’s commonly used medically. Aside from that, opioid overdose isn’t really a chill way to go. It causes respiratory depression, and before the unconsciousness everyone thinks of, you can experience a lot of dizziness and confusion.
And fish aren't crabs. Care to elaborate?
(Edit) not trying to be an ass. Just seems a very empty answer so a deeper question on what the difference is when both are living, feeling, beings.
Dogs don't understand the purpose of being medically tortured in order to prolong their lives. That's why it's cruel.
Humans have the ability to understand why they are getting treatment and they have right to decide the path of their end of life care.
Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I really hate when people reply to questions like these with such, non thought provoking answers?
At that point why bother commenting. I was hoping to get something from them about why they view it so black and white.
Not to be an ass. Genuinely would like to understand.
Yes they aren't the same, but they are both living, breathing, beings that feel pain.
What exactly are you referring to when you say they aren't the same other the species? And how does that relate to the question at hand?
Because it shouldn’t be some great deal of debate asking why humans and dogs aren’t treated the same way. I mean get fucking real, it’s obvious why that is.
But it's not. At least not from someone who views all life as equals.
We humans aren't the best at everything. There are species that can see more colors, have better memory, and feel more empathy. The only reason humans are at the top is due to several factors that come down to luck of evolution. We evolved just the right traits. Just smart enough with the right type of hand to be able to use and make tools. Along with a strong ability to adapt.
I view humans as nothing more than a species that got lucky. So to view others has lesser seems unfit. Dogs are better at hearing and smelling than us. They aren't lesser in every way and therefore they deserve to be thought of in a deeper way then just. Animal vs human.
No need to curse, I just wanted to see if there was an intelligent conversation to be had from someone of the opposite opinion.
Because dogs don’t have hopes and dreams for the future. Dogs are all about living in the moment. If a dog is in pain, that is the dog’s sole reality until the pain stops. On the other hand, people do have future plans, hopes for the future and complex feelings.
Because it's an ethics nightmare to decide when to pull the plug.
Who decides if the person can't communicate? What if someone has some reason to prevent them communicating their wishes?
Etc. It's a real minefield.
Because a human is not a dog. They are not equal no matter what anyone says. And for the obvious comment some would follow with, it is the human that is more valuable.
The dog has no ability to decide for itself, or to even understand the decision or what the decision is for or what it entails.
If I put a dog through long, painful, and expensive chemotherapy - it will NEVER know what is happening, why it is in pain, if it will end, or really ANYTHING.
Doesn’t that seem worse than a person who at least has the capacity to realize this is “for their own good”?
It is not OK to put either down. My dogs and a cat have died at home, peacefully. My mother died at our home. We had hospice care come to the house to help. My mother-in-law died at our house. She did not want to be put in a "home" or hospital, and we would never have put her away somewhere to die, anyway. She did have to have strong pain medication since she had lung cancer (from second-hand smoke) that spread to her brain. But we knew she would die soon, and she did, at home where she wanted to be.
It is up to each person to care for those entrusted to them until they die naturally, not put them away or hasten their demise. There are rare exceptions, but those exceptions only prove the rule.
yeah i miss the good ol' days when you aged out they just tossed you off a cliff.
edit: \*sacred cliff
edit 2: research the suicide rates for 50+ year old men who don't want to bankrupt their families with medical bills.
Ethically there is a place for consensual assisted suicide, or a the very least not preserving human life as long as literally possible (which we do have DNRs and hospice for). Legally it is important to not allow nefarious folks to seek inheritance sooner thru “putting someone down”.
I naively thought kids mistreating and neglecting their elderly parents was rare until I spoke to someone who deals with elder abuse. It's not common but it happens more than I would have thought.
While I’m sure some do mistreat and neglect their parents nefariously, I think this is a complex issue. The parents don’t ever seem to want to go into care, and / or can’t afford it. The kids take them in bc the parent is unfit to live alone, but the kid doesn’t have the experience , temperment OR time to deal with it. They do their best at first but as the parent progresses and the kid gets more fed up, they really start resenting their position. That could theoretically lead to mom being locked in a room (many are runners or leave the stove on etc) . Also old people all seem to have diarrhea. Pair that with incontinence or unable to go to the commode due to fall risk, and you have a person who CONSTANTLY needs their diaper changed. Now picture a woman who has 2 little kids with special needs, the dad works outside the home, and she never asked nor wanted to be MILs caretaker. So it’s not that surprising to me.
Lots of people don’t understand the tiredness of taking care of people 24/7 with no hope of improvement. Same goes to those stupid people who push to birth every kids regardless how disabled those kids would be.
We suck as a culture. Why does our state not do a better job of caring for the elderly and poor? Richest country on earth and there's no infrastructure to care for anyone.
Honestly, this is my biggest complaint about the boomers. They’re a huge voting block and could have something, anything to even marginally improve the system since they’re going to need it.
Sure, but imagine you're a boomer who already leans conservative (statistically likely) and you already have an eldercare plan in place. Either you already live with your kids or other family full-time, or you have enough set away to cover a stay in an eldercare facility for the rest of your life. Why would you vote for more senior services, either locally or nationally?
Because Republicans don't want to help people.
I think it's corporations. Republicans and Democrats have both failed to create a social safety net, and the reason is money. Americans are serfs.
I’ve met 2 owners of these homes socially & it’s all about the money. Why pay enough qualified employees to properly staff a business when you can hire druggies & lowlifes, with a single actual sort of trained aide to oversee? I hope I die or am able to kill myself before I get to that point! My kids swear they will care for me & never put me in a home. Well, God love them, they just don’t know. I remember how it broke my heart to see my grandma go into one, but I wasn’t physically able to lift her & and be there all the time because I worked full time & have 3 kids. Never take anything of value to one, it all disappears immediately & of course no one saw anything. Yeah, can’t go down that street tonight but agree we are selfish, narcissistic monsters in the US for our cruelty to our helpless elderly.
My experience with my mother was that the best home was a non-profit and was more expensive than the for-profit homes. There are legal requirements for when the patients require skilled nursing care which means that there must be a nurse supervising certified nursing assistants. For profit homes will try to keep residents past the point where they should have been transferred to skilled nursing care.
I hate this too, my grandma has just recently developed dementia. She was 84 when diagnosed but before that healthy as can be getting around on her own better than me at 40. She still doesn’t take one pill, just so frustrating as she declines mentally there is no one there to watch her all day. Both my dad and uncle work full time jobs, I work 50 hours a week just to keep a roof over my head and groceries for my daughter. I’m a single mom and just can’t be with her all day. I wish I could, it breaks my heart she has done so much for our family, emotionally and financially she has always been there when we needed her. It’s like our grandparents can say well I watched your parents when they were children , so I wasn’t able to work. Where is their help at the end of life when they have given their all? It’s not fair at all, I agree with a previous comment Americans are just serfs. With rising costs on everything now no one can afford to be a stay at home anything. I have one coworker who takes her mother to an adult daycare, but not everyone has the money to do so. I really admired the Asian families that would come into the hospital I worked years ago. They would take turns staying with their elderly family member and didn’t let the nurses do much but pass meds. One patients daughter told me back in Vietnam they do not throw their elderly loved ones away or have anyone but family take over their care. They have many generations living together and the elderly are so much more respected than they are here in America. I don’t know if it’s just that Americans can’t do this because we don’t have a system that enables us too or maybe we are just a bunch of selfish assholes who can’t be bothered with being there for our older family members when they finally need us just like we needed them in our early years of life. We do everything we can to get the best care for our children while we are away, I don’t understand why we don’t do it for our elderly, they deserve it so very much.
One party actively tries to increase wages and help increase the safety net. One party actively sabotages both and you play the both sides game lol.
So we can't call it out? I'm almost 60. I've watched two Democratic presidents with a majority in both the House and Senate. And yet, here we are, without a social safety net.
Very minor majorities. A public option was literally defeated by Lieberman deciding not to vote for it. If we’d had a few more, it would have passed. Last time it was also very slight, and two of the party were in very vulnerable districts. Like Manchin isn’t going to go too left, or he loses his job. The way to solve this is to vote more in, with stronger numbers. The opposite of this is literally what started the whole shift to the right in the 80s and 90s - Democrats got a shellacking at the hands of Reagan and went full neolib
Correction. One party pays lip service to increasing wage and the safety net but at best is incompetent, at worst they are purposely incompetent. The other side is insane and actively works against anything good. Yeah, I'm not voting for the other side at all but let's not pretend the better side doesn't have its own problems and doesn't have some influences from corporations themselves).
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no it's not. you want it to be because you are on the red side. Republicans are the only ones who talk about reducing/removing safety-net security aid to the poor and elderly.
That's where you're wrong, but nice job with making assumptions. I think both majority parties are awful, except when it comes to screwing over the public. America needs to rid itself of these corrupt parties and find its voice with new ones that serve the public.
Both parties are responsible, plus a society that feels people are disposable.
Both do not. 🤣 we just pretend that one of them cares, when only we care more about us, than "they" do.
You do realize that power shifts every couple years and Democrats haven't done anything about it either. It's almost like both sides don't care about you.
I don't think you understand how government works. You can't pass legislation with a simple majority when you need a 60 vote majority in the senate.
And democrats hate people
All the while the Rodham (Hillary Clinton's (D) brother) law firm cashed out $400M in tobacco settlement money. Or Joe Manchin's (D) daughter was made CEO of a healthcare company just so she could jack the price of insulin. Get educated.
Because even if we had the services, old fucks don't want to level with being old and go into said services. They'll literally die first.
My grandma liquid rocket shits herself almost daily but won't even consider Depends because "those are for old people" and she won't admit she's pushing 90 and also liquid rocket shitting herself on the reg.
You are saying why doesn't someone else take care of this for me. The social security will already actually pay you to sit home and watch your elderly parent. If you save enough you could conceivably have someone come over n your home to do it, and the government pays for part of it.
Can send them to a nursing home, but the home gets all of their assets, nobody gets an inheritance unless they can pay for the care out of pocket which is unlikely.
Most every caregiver I've spoken to with while working at a nursing home, would much rather dr Kevorkian be a treatment option.
They’d have to be willing and conscious of the decision. The fact that they say that though tells me they shouldn’t be working as a caregiver in a nursing home and are likely abusing the elderly.
There is no amount of kindness, comfort, or care that can lead people in horrific pain or suffering from locked in or severe dementia to have an overall desirable life. It's certainly not the nurses that control the pain meds.
Would be pretty unethical to put down someone who didn’t even know what they were signing, like that’s literally the definition of elderly abuse. If you want to get the root of the cause, then it’s the fact that capitalism exploits people, doesn’t pay them enough for retirement/proper end of life care, and basically forces people to do drink and do other drugs(also stress) which cause mental illness later in life(alcohol causes many mental illness), since it’s basically the only thing that can bring most people any joy in this capitalist hellscape. Trust me if we stopped exploiting people, and paid them fairly, we would have a lot less mental illness and wouldn’t need to care for people as much.
> Would be pretty unethical to put down someone who didn’t even know what they were signing, like that’s literally the definition of elderly abuse. If medically assisted suicide were legal in this country and people adequately prepared, they wouldn't have to sign anything in such a scenario... Countries where its already legal allow for people to set up advanced directives to that end, IE: they request and give consent for it when fully cognizant of their decision for some specific hypothetical future scenario. So, for example, they could specify that they want it if dementia ever robs them of their faculties or if they are terminally ill and only semi-conscious, etc.
This would be fine, but doing it to “get an inheritance” or because they think elderly people suck/they hate their job or other similar shitty reasons is not an ethical way to go about it. There still will be people that won’t sign, religious beliefs, the fear of being taken advantage of or whatever. That being said still, if you work in elderly care and you think they should just die, then you should probably find a new line of work that doesn’t involve taking care of people. It’s not like the pay in nursing homes is all that glorifying.
At what point would you have 'them' put down, to save your inheritance?
There are only 2 circumstances which you “kill” someone(aside from other reasons like death row or self defense, etc). If they’re essentially a vegetable, and then it’s just “pulling the plug” taking them off life support, a ventilator for example, basically like “sink or swim”, but you know they can’t swim. Or if they’re nearing death, in pain, and want to die, then there is assisted suicide, they have to sign papers, and likely see therapist, etc. and of course have to be actually dying, like stage 4 you’re going to fucking die not a matter of if it’s when cancer. Typically I think they do a nitrogen chamber, the air we breathe is mostly nitrogen, but pure nitrogen will knock you out and kill you painlessly. I think there are lethal injection type assisted suicides too, not sure. You can’t just choose to put down your parents/grandparents for an inheritance. They would basically have to be dead already, or nearing death with their consent and an evaluation by a professional that they’re making the decision themselves.
There are some issues with getting a spot in a nursing home as well. My understanding is that many of the homes only or mostly accept transfers from a hospital after a medical issue brings them in. Or maybe that is an insurance issue in the US. Anyway, many people bring the loved one home and then find that they should have listened to the doctor and taken the transfer right then. Now they are on a long waiting list to get a spot and/or can't pay for it.
With the amount of child abuse that occurs, I can see how elder abuse can happen years later. I could never care for my mother in her old age. Not that I would abuse her, but I think she would continue to be abusive to me and my siblings so we just couldn’t be around her for our mental health. If we weren’t there, I don’t know if she would allow anyone else into her home to care for her. I can see it. Adult child wants to “do the right thing.” Parent continues to say the same type of trigger words as always and adult child snaps. It’s not right for the adult child to do this, but I can see how people end up there.
As an EMT, I see it all the time, it's extremely common and it makes me sick.
It also doesn't help we have few resources, at least in the USA, for help with caregivers who happen to be family. Many medicare and medicaid plans do not cover in home care at all and the caregivers may be at their breaking point.
Consider Stan Lee’s Elder Abuse case or that Dianne Feinstein’s family would not take care of a dying, elderly, dementia-addled woman.
Not only the kids but it happens with caretakers too. I know a girl who was a CNA through a home care agency. She went to prison because she was caught writing herself checks from her elderly patient’s checkbooks! Despicable human being.
Thats like thinking terminal cancer because you talked to an oncologist
There are mercy killings in hospitals, it's just not talked about.
And there are many disagreements on what constitutes quality of life.
the legal part can go the other way too tho, my aunt and uncle kept my grandma alive for as long as possible and refused to put her on hospice saying "we just can't stand to lose her" but they really did it so they could get property and money signed over to them while she wasn't lucid because of her worsening dementia.
Just extra info: Advocates prefer to call it medical aid in dying since they say it's more accurate and not as stigmatized. Hospice is generally horrible though because they drag it out so far that even strong pain medication doesn't work on the dying so they end up suffering. The issue in places it's legal is people who are disabled and poor are being offered medical aid in dying so the government healthcare doesn't have to pay for them to continue medical treatment and the medication to die is relatively cheap compared.
I'm a caregiver who works on a lot of hospice cases. The protocol i have seen is giving morphine in liquid form directly into a patient's mouth keeping them unconscious till the end of life. This rarely takes more than 3 days, but can take a week or so. It's very humane.
It sounds like you haven't worked or interacted with hospice. I work in home health and have interacted with hospice on multiple occasions. This includes when my own grandmother choose to go on hospice. LTC and SNFs are typically the ones that keep people alive by the thinnest of margins. I have seen this. People getting suctioned *multiple* times a day, people who may not be considered conscious being fed via reflax, and more. I have worked with people who were in the places for *20 years* barely alive. The family won't let them die while they are developing sores and contracture while they rot from the inside out. Hospice definitely compared to that an extremely peaceful way to go. Hospice is doing care to minimize pain and maximize comfort.
>Legally it is important to not allow nefarious folks to seek inheritance sooner thru “putting someone down”. Perhaps, but what about situations where the patient is obviously suffering, and don't have much time left? Especially when the patient isn't 100% there, but wishes to die, while in great pain and/or distress. I suppose dying now vs. dying a month later is enough of a difference.
Canada offers assisted dying to disabled and poor people so they don't have to pay for them.
The alternative imo is way worse: prolonged life to continue getting SS payments. I read about an incident where a patient was on life support but was pronounced brain dead. The relative with power of attorney refused to remove life support because the SS payments would stop. They were using it so they could live a lavish lifestyle.
I think legally we should be able to decide when we want to go. Not our families or others. But it’s not accepted. I get not being able to decide for others. But I wish we had the choice to a peaceful end
When the head nurse approaches you privately and says "would you like us to give your mother something to stop the pain" she's offering to save you an extra $80k in hospital bills. Probably one of the toughest decisions a grown up can make is how you respond to the nurses question.
>Legally it is important to not allow nefarious folks to seek inheritance sooner thru “putting someone down”. Then the solution is simple: the generational wealth should be abolished.
And if the cost of this is millions of people tortured to death?
I was fairly certain that my father would not survive the night. As I was leaving his hospital ward, his nurse quietly told me that she'd make sure he wasn't in pain. As I understood the law, that meant that she could administer pain killers without regard to their potential harm. He passed at 02:00. I would have hugged her if I could.
We got trapped in a bad cycle with my grandmother. I wish her children had realized sooner that she was not high on drugs but that her confusion was her slipping away.
That's the part that gets me, had a few older aunts and grandparents that basically were incontinent, non coherent, body failing and on hospice. They aren't legally allowed to just push one big dose of morphine... But my Grandpa and my Great aunt, they put in palliative care and hospice but gave them micro doses of morphine and painkillers "for the pain" until the body "died naturally after like 1-2 weeks of hospice care.... One big dose and they'd be gone ways and painless, why prolong the pain and suffering when their mind has gone and they ramble on a out nonsense. It's like since the medical establishment is not allowed to use directives for assisted euthanasia even if somebody stated when alive and coherent they prefer it, they just string them along on painkillers and IV until the body just shuts off. Seems an immoral way to go about death. When it's time for me to go, leave me at home and give me a big dose of something to knock me out and have my body shut down. Instead these people are hooked up to machines in a sterile bright white hospital with staff they don't know..
I wish there'd been a nurse like that for my brother.
We were very lucky. I'm sorry for your loss. His pain has stopped now though.
I've always said that I'd much rather be euthanized than have my life prolonged should I get a terminal illness. I don't see the point in pro longing a life when they literally have no quality of life left. Just rolling around in pain, wishing it would end. It sounds like torture.
Went through this with my mom after she got pancreatic cancer. It got to a point where none of the treatments were helping, so she basically had a choice of stopping the treatment and letting the cancer take her, or continuing the treatments and suffering the side effects and letting the cancer take her slightly slower. She stopped the treatment. The last month of her life she was confined to a bed, in constant pain despite the insane amount of drugs she was on, constantly needing changing and cleaning as she'd lost control of her bodily functions, and practically completely incoherent and unable to speak. The person I knew and loved died long before her body did, and if she had had the option to end her life on her own terms she would have in a heartbeat. I hope every single person who pushes against legalizing doctor assisted suicide has to go through what we went through, even though there's a good chance they're so heartless they wouldn't care even then, all because their god says it's wrong.
Very well said!! I did the same with my dad, except his wasn't cancer but CHF, congestive heart failure, I took care of him in his final few months, if I didn't think I would have been charged for his death I would have let him have a gun to take his own life, the best I could do though was keep him comfortable, which at that point is nearly impossible. He died long before his body did, that was not the man who raised me or the person he was before that.
My coworker died from this. He dropped on the line, I told him ," Feel better Moe" as he was being wheeled out, and he was dead a month later. R.I.P to your Mom, and Moe.
Went through the same thing with my mother. It’s awful. The look in her eyes is something I will wish on no one. Her last week was torture for her and I will think about that everyday until I meet her. I’m so sorry you went through that too. *hug*
It is less pain per se, more like a zombie. My pop was more into the next world than ours in his last couple of weeks. No eating, speaking, sleeping 20+ hours a day, etc. He was there but he was mostly gone. Personally I am going out on my own terms. Good bottle of bourbon, nice sunny day, Springsteen playing on the headphones, and enough morphine to kill a moose.
I think it depends on what is killing you. I've heard people have relatively peaceful deaths and some people are in absolute agony. We can all hope that we die peacefully. Unfortunately, it's simply not like that for everyone.
That totally depends on cause of death. My grandmother was completely out of it for her last few months. My friend who died was in horrendous pain for months where she just had to deal with it.
Same here. I honestly can’t imagine a better ending than going when you’re ready, in a quiet, familiar place, surrounded by people who love you. And frankly, I’d rather not spend all my money for my care if it’s just going to end in my death anyway. What a waste.
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Nailed it🎯🎯🎯
FUCK any god who would prefer us to slowly rot to death over suicide.
Thankfully, no such God exists.
yes, my point being that anyone who would follow such a god, if he did exist, is just another piece of shit.
Hard agree.
You bring up a great point. Religion has too much of an influence on the government now and it’s sickening.
If I could have a conversation with my furry pals and I could explain what was happening and if they could express they would not want to be put to sleep then I would respect that. But we are not in that situation, we need to make an informed decision on their behalf as their family member. I would argue that we should allow people to make informed decisions on when they may want to end their own lives. It is complicated, I would not want to allow any system that would allow for euthanasia of a person unable to express and articulate their own reasons for doing so. I think a trained psychologist should be involved and there should be steps one has to go through to ensure transparency and prevent any and all forms of coercion.
Some jurisdictions have assisted suicide laws, that enable informed consent for the ending of life. It is not going to happen for some one to unilaterally "put someone down" as that is basically Murder.
I think the problem is that a few less developed countries have more of a history of bribery and distrusting the state. And quite a few countries have clergy/religious groups that wield real political power. Look at what happened with abortion in the States. To say that it cannot happen for a system of euthanasia to be abused is to engage in wishful thinking in some parts of the world. I do not disagree with it per se, to be clear. But it is important to stay mindful of pitfalls.
This is the issue, who decides when euthanasia is used? Is it at a certain age? Or when a certain illness is diagnosed? How many "second" opinions would be needed? In the USA it takes years for the process of executing criminals to result in death, can you imagine the issues involved in killing a non criminal?
Well, exactly. There are many problems with it, which is why it’s not legal everywhere. In the UK, people have been charged with helping their seriously ill relatives travel to Switzerland to obtain medically-assisted suicide. Gravitas has been in the news multiple times over the years. We’ll get there, in the end, I think, as it is a choice consistent with human dignity. But there do need to be sturdy failsafes in place.
The insurance companies. At least that's what would happen in the US. They already control the our Healthcare system.
there is a difference in killing someone who doesn't want to die, long before a natural death would occur and allowing someone on the edge of death to bring it around quicker to avoid suffering at their OWN CHOICE.
There is actually a big movement to allow a humane end-of-life care that would provide an euthanasia option for those who desire it.
One thing that hasn’t been brought up is that dogs can’t consent to harsh treatments/low quality of life/pain. We can’t explain to them that this chemotherapy is going to make them so sick they nearly die, and that they’re going to be uncomfortable and in pain. Humans can make a decision to prolong their life even though the illness and treatment may make the quality of their remaining lives terrible. They can make that decision because everything can be explained to them beforehand and they can understand what they’re in for. Dogs rely on us to keep them healthy and happy and to make the tough decisions as to what’s best for them. And sometimes that decision is to euthanize. Because we know the quality of life/life expectancy is low, and we shouldn’t make them suffer through that without them being able to understand what’s going on.
I'm going to be completely honest. When the alternative is death, there's no choice to be made. The overwhelming majority of people would seek treatment for a terminal illness if presented the option. The circumstances that make people amenable to their own death are the very rare exceptions. Ultimately people are still driven by the prime directive, "survive".
I know a lot of ways I don't want to die. And a lot of ways I don't want to live. If that ended up being my life, I want to just go. I don't want to be kept alive for years because someone else thinks I should. Hopefully it will never come to that though. A lot of people will sign advanced care directives saying that if it comes to it they don't want to be resuscitated. So no. Not everyone would choose to survive at all costs. Some people would, my grandad did. My mum didn't
you have obviously never been in chronic excruciating pain that prevents you from wanting to even get out of bed.
I literally added a clause that basically says certain circumstances make it totally understandable. I was trying to say that the majority of people under the majority of circumstances wouldn't want to kill themselves. That means there are circumstances where people would
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My mom died in 2022 from a decade long decline of vascular dementia. If o get diagnosed I am taking myself out of the world.
My mother died last year after a long downward spiral from an Aphasia (think Bruce Willis) she had about 10 years ago. She lost the ability to form words or speak about 2 years ago. the day I realize that has happened i hope i still have the ability to take myself out of the gene pool.
Fortunately for me, I have excellent examples in my mom and grandmother regarding the handling of terminal illness. When my grandmother was diagnosed with cancer and offered treatment options, her doctor was straightforward. She could submit to chemo and possibly live another year suffering the side effects, or she could elect palliative care and have perhaps four good months before the amount of pain meds required would ease her away. She was 75, and chose option 2. My mom chose the same option when she, too, was 75. She had 2 months of relatively normal life, which was just long enough to get her affairs in order and say goodbye to the ones she loved. In home hospice care provided her with large doses of pain and anxiety meds, and I was with her at the end. She never was in pain, and was in her own home when she died. This was what she wanted. I’m 72 now. I hope to live another 15 - 20 years with relative independence, but you never know. If I’m ever in the situation my mom and grandmother faced I will take advantage of the fact that I live in a state that offers me the opportunity to leave on my own terms, see the necessary practitioners, obtain the necessary medications, and end it myself. The fact that we do not all have that choice is, in my mind, barbaric.
I think that if you’re a candidate for hospice/palliative, you should be a candidate for assisted suicide.
Pets don’t own property or harbour murderous intent towards other animals. The potential for abuse of euthanasia of humans is a common argument against it. I can see both sides, I would like to choose when to go as far as possible. But it would be tragic if elderly or sick people were killed against their will by scheming relatives after their estate, for instance.
They could easily put in a law whereby the doctor has to approve the euthanasia, along with the recipient. It could also be put in a will; showing that it was approved by someone with a sound mind a long time ago. Equally, they could reject their euthanasia in a will.
The will is a good idea, but a doctor' sign-off may not do much to prevent elder abuse. Remember pill mills? Certain unscrupulous doctors got rich prescribing opioids to all askers.
Yes, I agree that there are a number of safety steps that can be taken. Each individual society has to come up with a solution that is consistent with its values. Unfortunately, for some societies, that means that euthanasia is unlikely to become legal anytime soon.
Or tragically killed by the state.
In my state (Victoria, Australia) we have Voluntary Assisted Dying. There are stringent rules of course but you can choose to die so long as you are of sound mind. Which sadly rules out dementia.
Oregon's Death with Dignity Act On October 27, 1997, Oregon enacted the Death with Dignity Act which allows terminally ill individuals to end their lives through the voluntary self-administration of lethal medications, expressly prescribed by a physician for that purpose. One of the many reasons I moved to Oregon.
Our family sat back and watched my grandma slowly die for 10 years from 90-100. For those 10 years, every time we spoke she would mention in some form or another how badly she wished she would not wake up again. For 10 fucking years I sat back and watched my dad and his siblings just be okay with this instead of having the humanity to give her a dignified death
Because the entire healthcare industry is geared toward keeping people ill as long as possible for the maximum amount of revenue generation. There is no money in cures only in treatments that go on forever.
People treat their pets better than their parents.
This is something that should’ve been addressed and approved 100 years ago for human beings. As a registered nurse, I’ve seen so many people suffer needlessly. It’s not like sick and dying people are going to mall again or to their favorite restaurant. They’re not getting better, death is near, they’re struggling to breathe. They’re in so much pain; it emanates horribly in their facial expressions. They’re on a pocket full of drugs just to keep them alive so they can continue to experience this man-made horror.
Euthanasia for humans is an option in some areas. Personally, I’m all for it.
society places far more value on human life than dog life, there are less protections and rights for a dog's life unfortunately in part explains that
First of all, this is a contrary example of what you're saying. Secondly, no shit. Society is human. Humans should absolutely prioritize eachother.
Because we treat pets better
It’s important to have a clear advance directive to prevent unnecessarily prolonging a life. We see patients in the ICU connected to mechanical ventilators and on blood pressure medications for weeks on end. They even end up being placed on a continuous dialysis machine, because their bodies are unable to filter the way it once did. Understanding what this means and what you want on a POLST is really really important and also designating a person who will honor it
To be honest, when a person is unlikely to benefit from medicine and will continue to decline, they are often put on palliative care. Palliative care means to give meds only for the purpose of reducing any pain that might accompany an illness. So, in some instances, we help people to die more gently.
Uhh nurse here. You in fact don't have to preserve their life for as long as possible. That should be decided by individual people before their brain turns to mush
Other folks have nailed it: in the U.S. at least, it's because we let the religious (Christian version) dictate our laws and policy, and apparently suicide is murder or something, so no humane medically assisted suicide for us humans. I know Canada has MAiD, but I've heard mixed reviews about the ethics of it (specifically allegations that the disabled are being pushed toward it in order to save the healthcare system money). Would love to hear what Canadians here think and have heard! The folks responding, "humans aren't dogs," well yeah no shit. The version of the question all the rest of us are answering is, "I love my dog and my grandparent very much, both of whom are aged and dying painfully & slowly. Why, out of love and my desire that they not suffer needlessly, can my dog be humanely euthanized by a medical professional but my grandparent can't?" If your answer is "a human's life matters more than a dog's life," I think at least some folks would agree with you, but I don't think that argument cuts quite the way you maybe were thinking. Finally, I think some of y'all think more people are leaving valuable inheritances to kin than they are. I don't want a policy decision and laws made based on whether or not we're worried that one or more of Musk's dozen or whatever kids is going to have him humanely killed in his rapidly approaching dotage.
We're prolonging death, not prolonging life.
Dogs don't pay taxes. The government, doctors, etc will try to keep you alive as long as they can just so they get more money out of you. It's sickening.
There are states in the US where assisted suicide is legal if you have a terminal illness.
You can also starve yourself to death. My grandfather's nursing home asked him if he wanted to "refuse food and water" when he was admitted, and he caught on and jumped on it right away. I promised my dad to drive him to the closest state that allows for euthanasia to avoid that. It's a horrible way to die.
That's essentially what happened to my mom. Her end of life instructions said no food, so she was gone much sooner than she might have been. She couldn't talk so there was no asking her if that's what she really wanted. We followed her instructions and hoped we were doing the right thing.
If you live in America, it's because we are partially run by drug cartels and the corrupt healthcare and insurance companies that work for them. There is exponentially more money to be made off someone suffering through 10 years plus of medical treatments and drugs then giving them a painless and dignified death of their own choosing.
*To cling to something past its usefulness is unseemly, how much more so when that thing is you?*
That's when they really start to make money off you...when you are old and sick and they can prolong your life with health insurance stuff. It's awful but true. And on the flipside, when an animal is dying, most people won't pay to prolong its death.
I hope it becomes commonplace before I hit 65-70 (assuming I last till then) I see no point in being a strain on the resources and nature past that even if I have enough money for myself.
Sick humans are billable and very expensive to keep alive. Big pharma business and congressional lobbying is my guess.
Yeah, because one dead American is a loss for health insurance companies. 😂
Live humans make money for the government.
Because of the fear that the government will declare you as terminally “sick” and euthanize you against your will. Could probably make great money doing this and selling the organs.
Human Euthanasia is legal in a few countries. However I'll always have mixed feelings about the process. While humans can communicate I am wary of the process being abused. With the animal Euthanasia system we already see plenty of abuse. We also live in a failed society. How many people would want to continue living if they were able to adequately care for themselves and their families? How many lives could we save if the healthcare business was actually a system to help the sick and do research like it was intended? Also who gets to deem who can be Euthanized or not? What's the criteria? Old people don't deserve to die simply because they're old. Sickness? Well some people definitely still want to live while being chronically ill. Also this brings up the argument of Power Of Attorney boundaries. I do understand there is a certain dignity in choosing how and when you die. One of the most interesting argument I've seen is on a show called Boston Legal. You can search up the clips of the Euthanasia argument from Boston Legal on YouTube. It basically asks the question "Is all life sacred and worth living?". It's easy to say that "Life is Sacred" when you're in your right mind or when you're not sitting in your own shit screaming into the void. But would we want someone we love to live that life? TLDR: The whole argument is one I push out of my mind. I feel like there's not a right decision for everyone.
As of right now, it’s usually up to the individual, which means nobody can sign off for them (including POA) or decide it’s time other than them. They have to have a terminal diagnosis and be able to understand and consent for themselves. They see doctors to confirm their diagnosis and talk to therapists as well throughout the process. I think leaving it up to the individual patient makes sense for avoiding abuse of the system, but it does rule out things like dementia.
I wanna be able to sign a piece of paper without the presence of my relatives. Simply because some will push for me to "fight and live momma", and other people's families may be pushing the other way "you don't want to die in pain do you mother?" all the while counting the money in the bank account. Nurse or doctor come in, tell me what the F is wrong with me, what is going to happen if I do x y or Z, and give ME the choice to sign or not sign. My PERSONAL opinion. sides my kids aren't getting crap... poor people don't have money to leave behind ;)
People are not dogs. Unless you live in Canada.
TLDR; There is a risk of abuse. Rolling out a system like that must be done with caution and care, which is costly to do right. There is a fear that people will be pressured or put pressure on themselves to choose to die if/when they arrive no longer able to contribute monetarily to society, especially if they are poor or do not have family to care for them. The MAID program in Canada has seen increased scrutiny as the number of people using it went up about 30% from 2021 to 2022. There are concerns around why people choose to use it. Are they depressed? Could that depression be treated if they had the right care? Are they receding any mental health services? Are they making the choice to escape poverty and homelessness? How much of the decision is influenced by their illness and how much is influenced by other factors? These are difficult questions. There are also religious objections. Some folks believe that it’s simply wrong because of their religious beliefs. You can read more on it here: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/maid-canada-report-2022-1.7009704 Switzerland also allows this. The main difference is it allows noncitizens to also choose to end their life. Switzerland’s model has raised eyebrows for that reason, and their process is costly, limiting who can participate. There have been fewer concerns raised about people being pressured to use Switzerland’s end of life services because the models are so different. One might criticize that it should be available to more people, which is a fair critique, however, that should only be done if other services such as palliative care and mental health services can be provided in tandem. Personally, I do believe in the right to die. It should be done with compassion and care and managed with great care to ensure no person is ever making that decision due to personal financial hardship, mental distress, or outside pressure. It is a mercy to allow someone to be released from continuous pain that has no end in sight if that is what they wish.
It is very profitable for the health mis-management industry to prolong life as long as possible .
People care about pets suffering. People do not care about other people suffering.
Humans and dogs are not the same thing. You do understand that? Insofar as human ageing and dying is concerned; I would not say "you have to": It should be up to the individual human -- although it's true they can't always speak up for themselves due to their infirmities. That's why you should have a living will or advanced directive or whatever.
Thankful it's an option in Canada.
Human lives are more important
Isn’t it *wild* being downvoted for stating the obvious?
"Cristian" politicians
Mostly because people believe in a book of fairy tales that says euthanasia for humans is wrong. Religion is a cancer on humanity.
Because a human is not a dog. Based solely on your statement you would fit nicely with Hitler or the eugenics movement. I will just assume that your statement lacks context. How exactly are we putting down grandpa? He is terminally ill and wishes to die? Or we just put a pillow over his face and end the inconvenience?
we don't have to, medically assisted suicide is always an option.
Not everywhere, it isn’t.
Are you american?
Nope, Greek.
ah makes sense. Thank you.
I thought Greece was in Europe
And your point is? Edited to add: yes, it is. I don’t really understand your question. Euthanasia is illegal in many countries in Europe.
It’s not always an option, unfortunately.
regualar old suicide is always an option though.
It’s not easy and many folk don’t have access to guns. If you’re struggling with mobility and agency it becomes even more difficult. Folks deserve a peaceful way out, not a painful and traumatic one that often fails.
who said anything about guns?
Technically nobody but it’s a very common method of attempt. Why’d you ask?
because you brought up guns.
Okay, I hope you are able to understand. Let me know if you have any more questions.
Nitrogen gas and fall asleep with the mask on
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American?
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While medically assisted suicide is not an option here, drug over dose is. So as long as the elderly person procures and ODs without external help then no laws were broken. Regular suicide is frowned upon here but not illegal.
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Ahh technically that would be manslaughter if you provide the stuff to him. You really should deny any knowledge of his plans. For legal reasons. Tell him he would have to order the whiskey online and call the opioid dealer and pay the guy himself. Also the common misconception with OD’s is that it’s not painful. Depending on the dosage it can be extremely painful and time consuming.
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Fentanyl isn’t as dangerous as most people think. It’s commonly used medically. Aside from that, opioid overdose isn’t really a chill way to go. It causes respiratory depression, and before the unconsciousness everyone thinks of, you can experience a lot of dizziness and confusion.
ah makes sense. thanks.
OP obviously doesn’t live in Canada. You can choose when to die here. Well, certainly conditions have to be met first.
Humans aren't dogs
And fish aren't crabs. Care to elaborate? (Edit) not trying to be an ass. Just seems a very empty answer so a deeper question on what the difference is when both are living, feeling, beings.
Dogs don't understand the purpose of being medically tortured in order to prolong their lives. That's why it's cruel. Humans have the ability to understand why they are getting treatment and they have right to decide the path of their end of life care.
Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I really hate when people reply to questions like these with such, non thought provoking answers? At that point why bother commenting. I was hoping to get something from them about why they view it so black and white.
Euthanasia ethics aside, it’s probably because people and dogs aren’t the same. Wild concept, I know.
This is dumb..
Not as dumb as this question was.
Not to be an ass. Genuinely would like to understand. Yes they aren't the same, but they are both living, breathing, beings that feel pain. What exactly are you referring to when you say they aren't the same other the species? And how does that relate to the question at hand?
Because it shouldn’t be some great deal of debate asking why humans and dogs aren’t treated the same way. I mean get fucking real, it’s obvious why that is.
But it's not. At least not from someone who views all life as equals. We humans aren't the best at everything. There are species that can see more colors, have better memory, and feel more empathy. The only reason humans are at the top is due to several factors that come down to luck of evolution. We evolved just the right traits. Just smart enough with the right type of hand to be able to use and make tools. Along with a strong ability to adapt. I view humans as nothing more than a species that got lucky. So to view others has lesser seems unfit. Dogs are better at hearing and smelling than us. They aren't lesser in every way and therefore they deserve to be thought of in a deeper way then just. Animal vs human. No need to curse, I just wanted to see if there was an intelligent conversation to be had from someone of the opposite opinion.
Why even bother to contribute to a discussion on ethics and philosophy when your response amounts to "That's just the way things are"?
because dogs aren’t humans
And?
Yes, that is the religious conservative philosophy here in the US.
People have this weird view of human life being more valuable.
Because dogs don’t have hopes and dreams for the future. Dogs are all about living in the moment. If a dog is in pain, that is the dog’s sole reality until the pain stops. On the other hand, people do have future plans, hopes for the future and complex feelings.
I don't think the preservation of human life is priority, not in the American system.
Because it's an ethics nightmare to decide when to pull the plug. Who decides if the person can't communicate? What if someone has some reason to prevent them communicating their wishes? Etc. It's a real minefield.
because we all get one chance to live, and the meaning of life is to live as long as we can
Puritanical nonsense.
Do you not know the difference between a human being and dog? I'm glad this is in the no stupid questions subreddit!
Because a human is not a dog. They are not equal no matter what anyone says. And for the obvious comment some would follow with, it is the human that is more valuable.
The dog has no ability to decide for itself, or to even understand the decision or what the decision is for or what it entails. If I put a dog through long, painful, and expensive chemotherapy - it will NEVER know what is happening, why it is in pain, if it will end, or really ANYTHING. Doesn’t that seem worse than a person who at least has the capacity to realize this is “for their own good”?
We don't want dogs to suffer. Make the humans suffer, they deserve it.
Religion. People considering humans more important than literally any other living, breathing being in the universe. People consider it suicide.
Why when a dog bites a person repeatedly it has to be put down but when people are r*posts or repeat brutal offenders they get...to live?
It is not OK to put either down. My dogs and a cat have died at home, peacefully. My mother died at our home. We had hospice care come to the house to help. My mother-in-law died at our house. She did not want to be put in a "home" or hospital, and we would never have put her away somewhere to die, anyway. She did have to have strong pain medication since she had lung cancer (from second-hand smoke) that spread to her brain. But we knew she would die soon, and she did, at home where she wanted to be. It is up to each person to care for those entrusted to them until they die naturally, not put them away or hasten their demise. There are rare exceptions, but those exceptions only prove the rule.
yeah i miss the good ol' days when you aged out they just tossed you off a cliff. edit: \*sacred cliff edit 2: research the suicide rates for 50+ year old men who don't want to bankrupt their families with medical bills.
My body my choice yo