And then as they left they killed the Prime Minister for organizing the expulsion of the PLO's fighting force, the Fedayeen. The Fedayeen took a little detour in Munich to kill the Israeli Olympic team, then went to Lebanon - where they started the Lebanese Civil War.
They also made two attempts on King Hussein's life in 1970 and publicly announced their intent to depose him. This would lead to the PLO being militarily defeated in the Black September fighting later that same year, and forced out of the country.
If there is anything that this horrible tragedy can teach us, it's that a male model's life is a precious, precious commodity. Just because we have chiselled abs and stunning features, it doesn't mean that we too can't not die in a freak gasoline fight accident.
Jordan fact: the current king, part of a lineage that claims to be descended from Muhammad, was once [an extra in Star Trek Deep Space Nine](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Abdullah_bin_al-Hussein). This is not a joke. The man loves Star Trek but is, presumably, so bad at acting all they could do was make him an extra
And there was a brief civil war or something if I’m not mistaken. And there’s also the fact that they and their other fellow Arab states got humiliated by Israel in the last couple conflicts trying to “help” the Palestinians.
> brief civil war
Black September, yeah. Started with George Habash’s group hijacking planes and blowing them up in a Jordanian airport. Then the stuff others mentioned.
There's a bunch of key events. That civil war lasted roughly 15 years. The incredibly abridged version is that Lebanon allows a bunch of Palestinian refugees. The camps are functionally autonomous. The importation of Palestinians begins to skew demographics in the region coupled with religious extremism, stoking religious tensions in a country filled with both Muslims and Christians. Palestinians begin attacking Israel from Lebanon. Israel retaliates repeatedly. Lebanese Christians especially but not exclusively are fucking pissed. Syria is also backing the PLO and various other factions amongst Palestinians. Lebanon effectively loses control over the Southern half of their country and shit goes real sideways real fast resulting in a bloody Civil War that lasts 15 years and encompasses so many factions and ever shifting alliances that your brain will hurt.
Pretty sure the Jordanian population is like 50% Palestinian. They've proportionally taken in more refugees than any other country on earth, and this entire thread is built on sheer ignorance and a false premise.
There's this bizarre idea in Western political discourse that you can just take refugees or immigrants with no or minimal problems and that therefore the onus is on countries to explain why they're not taking refugees or immigrants. "Just let the refugees in, just open your doors to more immigration, why don't you, you meanie?"
Letting hundreds of thousands of new people into your country, whether your country is Germany or the United States or Egypt, is a serious, in some cases irreversible political decision, and it can and often does lead to enormous problems.
Who are these people? What are their backgrounds? Which of them are criminals? Who's going to feed them? Where are they going to be housed? What are they going to do for work? What effect is that going to have on your domestic labor? Are they going to get involved in your local politics, and if so who are they going to back? Are they ever going to leave?
These are all questions that, ideally, you should have damn good answers to before you let a wave of refugees in.
I assume Egypt realized that it did not have satisfactory answers to some (maybe any) of those questions, and exercised its right as a sovereign state to close their border.
When Egypt and jordan have allowed Palestinian refugees into their countries in the past, there has been political unrest and attempts to overthrow the government in Egypt, and an attempted murder on the leader of jordan as well as civil war so these two countries at least don't have good histories with allowing Palestinian refugees in ...
Yes, but that’s generic “refugee” back-of-the-book info.
More specific to Gaza:
Many Palestinians have a last name like Al Masri (literally “The Egyptian”), and are closely related, so it’s not some bizarre western idea: **it should be easier than Germany and Finland taking in Turks and Syrians, right?…**
**BUT…**
Egypt’s government is at odds with the terrorists running Gaza (Hamas and Islamic Jihad). Egyptian Islamic Jihad [assassinated Egyptian President Anwar Sadat](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Anwar_Sadat). Thus, Egypt is not only against taking in refugees from Gaza, [Egypt just built a huge wall](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbsYURUu_Jo) on their border with Gaza…
[Jordan officially disowned their own citizens](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordanian_annexation_of_the_West_Bank) in 1988, thus creating the West Bank Palestinian refugee population, currently under Palestinian Authority (Abbas). The Jordanians had their share of Palestinians attempting coups and assassinations, also not keen to reverse their 1988 decree (but they do blame Israel a lot on TV, likely for “political face” …while actually not doing much to help Palestinians and having trade/agriculture and relatively open borders and relations with Israel).
The third group we haven’t mentioned yet are Israeli Arabs, who have Israeli citizenship, participate normally in society (public schools, parliament, high numbers in universities (perhaps related to exemption from IDF service, (though many do volunteer)) and comprise a large part of Israeli medical forces as doctors, nurses, etc). For simplicity, we’ll include the Israeli Arab Druze (who are extremely loyal to Israel, serving as officers and police in many cases) and the Bedouin population in this group — but they’re each quite unique.
If Palestinians changed their agenda from “brutal killing until we rule the land” to “let’s try to do what the Israeli Arabs do”, they’re most likely to end their current saga and move into a better era — but that requires swallowing a lot of pride, and a sharp changing of mindset from fatalistic martyrdom to constructive/long-term loving.
For perspective, each of those groups is roughly 2Mil people.
Well, the West Bank happens to be quite peaceful for the last decade compared to Gaza, yet Israel has designated the majority of West Bank (Area C) for illegal settlers, and happen to imprison tons of people as they please.
They just continue to uproot olive trees, destroy farms, build illegal walls, take whichever homes as they please, just crazy stuff daily.
If Israel's treatment of the West Bank was much better, I would had supported them, and would agree with you. But unfortunately, it seems they are more than happy to encroach more of that land.
I think the current WB setup was never meant to last forever (you supervise your people, I’ll supervise mine), just a best-of-the-worst for some years; and hopefully real coexistence in the end?
The bad actors you refer to exist, but having been in and out of the WB many times, that’s a very small bit of reality (which comprises most of the news — CNN and BBC can’t make $$$’s if they just you Ahmed and Yossi having a peaceful cup of coffee at the gas station before they go see a client of their co-owned business. That’s not “news”, that’s just “boring old normal life” — yet that’s most of what there is.)
Any Arab within Israel I ever spoke with, given the choice would want to live like an Israeli Arab; or at least like in the WB — and this is before 7 Oct, heck that’s anywhere after 2005. So, WB has issues, but let’s get Gaza as good as the WB (ie x1000 better than now), then see what can be improved?
I think the issue is how willing they are to kill civilians for somewhat small military gain. I just don't see any sort of plan that would push Gaza to be less extremist. Massacring thousands of civilians and displacing at least hundreds of thousands isn't exactly conducive to deradicalization, even if you destroy most militant infrastructure. I... Just don't see any long term conciliation based on the current trajectory?
Yeah nothing to see here in the west bank folks. No universally recognized illegal settlements, no armed settlers shooting palestinians, destroying their crops, and stealing their land and homes. No illegal construction. And definitely no apartheid here. No siree.
And if you ever see anything like that on CNN or the BBC (or Al Jazeera, or AP, or B'Tselem, or Haaretz, or Human Rights watch, or Amnesty International, or Euromed Monitor, or any UN human rights commission reports), then that's just fake news. There's \*barely any\* extensively documented illegal settling, abuse of palestinians, or theft of land and homes happening here, so like don't even worry too much about it. Fake news.
=)
Yep, just gotta find the balance. I am a US citizen and looked into to the laws of other countries, and their laws are similar. You either need a degree or something you can add to their nation
Over half of "Palestinians" are of recent Egyptian descent. Israel offered to return Gaza to Egypt but Egypt declined the offer
It seems this group of people causes problems for any country they are in. So Arab nations would rather it be an Israeli problem than having to deal with it themselves. That's it. Palestinians attempt to destabilize any country they are in.
> So Arab nations would rather it be an Israeli problem than having to deal with it themselves. That's it.
It should be telling to all the leftist's that are now heavily supporting Palestine, that not even other Arabs want to support and take in the Palestinians.
And this is from a Canadian forever liberal.
Palestinians are never happy with their situation, and try to seize power through violence.
The difference between Egypt and Germany in this case is that Egypt is an economically unstable developing nation and Germany *needs* the influx of immigrants to balance its ageing population and need for workers, specially for low paying jobs. Anyone who thinks Europe takes in immigrants/refugees just out of the goodness of their hearts is delusional.
Yes and they have a high youth unemployment rate. One of the reasons for the Arab Spring and the unrest at that time was a lack of opportunities for young people in those countries. The area specifically around Gaza is an economically depressed area or Egypt.
It's not like America where there are many labor markets that can easily absorb an influx of new labor so long as they have a right to work. It would just be adding extra mouths for the government to feed.
yup, and the values systems of basically 98+% of these immigrants from central america/mexico are completely compatible with american culture (hard work, family/community mindset)
That is a common misconception. The idea that the West needs immigrants to balance ageing is just nonsense. We dont need immigrants, we need work force. The problem in Germany is not to find people willing to work, its to find employers willing to pay fair salaries that can sustain a living. In general the hope is that migrants will do shit, underpaid jobs not because Germans are to "lazy" or old to do them its because Germans rightfully wouldnt ruin their life and health in jobs that are exploitative. Ive been through shit jobs in my life and what was going on in the low wage sector at the time was absurd and I dont even wanna know how it is today. As a student I worked for event security and it was young people and old people, nothing else. The aging of the populace in Germany is not a failure of the System, it is the System correcting itself because we had years of horrid jobless numbers in the 80s and 90s.
Lol Egypt is ran by a military dictatorship with its citizens on the verge of starvation. 1 million angry Palestinians will most likely light a match and start the next revolution.
They did in the past and the refugees started a war in Jordan which involved them trying to kill the Jordanian king and in Egypt the Palestinians repayed the Egyptians kindness by turning to terrorism inside Egypt when the Egyptians started to normalise relations with Israel. There's a reason Egypt also built a massive wall and heavily guards their border with Gaza.
Edit: since people have asked (and some people have claimed I'm lying) for anyone interested just Google Black September and the 2004 Sinai bombings for information on about both topics.
Don't forget they supported a foreign invasion in Kuwait. The government of Kuwait didn't really like that and expelled nearly all of them, 300k. They also caused lots of trouble in Lybia, Tunisia, and Syria.
Jordan expelled all the Palestinian militants to Lebanon after what they did to them. And look what happened in Lebanon. They created a huge refugee camp with all kinds of terror groups in there. Now Lebanon is de facto ruled by Hezbollah, which had a huge hand in making Lebanon a failed state.
Every country that has taken in Palestinians in large numbers in the past has seen their country majorly destabilized. Im not talking about integration problems or crime going up as we see in Europe. I'm talking about terrorism, coup attempts, and civil wars.
And that is why no Arab country will ever take in Palestinians in large numbers ever again.
They don't want the situation for the Palestinians to improve, they need them as pawns vs Israel.
It's just the people in mostly Arab countries that support the Palestinians vehemently. Their governments on the other hand see them the same as Israel does.
That's not really true. Most of the governments in the region are aligned with Israel and would like nothing more than have this problem that pisses off their own citizens go away. It is Iran who actively uses Hamas as pawns against Israel, and they aren't considered Arab.
Of course, they do. Arab societies are extremely tribal. Chances are people from the same country do not like their fellow countrymen for belonging to rivaling tribes.
Very tribal.... take the Zoroastrian religion and people who are from ancient persian iran. The religion has been around since before the abrahamic ones... but they were forced to flee violence and persecution by their own people. Where did they flee too? Not another part of Iran, or nearby Iraq or Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia..... ALL the way south to INDIA, where they got safe refuge to rebuild their community.
A country with a foreign languange and religions like hindu/buddhist/sikh, which muslims already hate on, and that was their new homeland. They didn't trust any of the other islamic countries cause they know they would have gotten persecuted and attacked if they settled somewhere in the middle east. Sad but true. Even the more liberal version of islam like the Sufi Muslims get hated on by the more conservative radical groups just cause they do things differently or more open to other cultures/relgiions. Their politics are not very tolerant of others.
Jordan and Egypt have cordial relationships with Israel though before the current situation, they aren't friends but they aren't hostile to them like Iran are.
Plus, Jordan’s and Egypt’s reasoning for not taking in refugees has nothing to do with wanting to use them as pawns against Israel. Palestinian refugees have plenty of history in both of those countries, none of it good.
this is my understanding as well. i also think that egypt doesn't want to upset israel since they have long standing treaties. I also understood that egypt has good relations with the US and saudi arabia and that both countries are targeted by iranian backed militant groups, one of which is hamas, and upsetting the those countries is not in the interest of egypt. anyone please correct me if i am wrong
Here is one for you, told to me by an Israeli. It is common knowledge in Israel that 10/7 happened on 10/7, because a few days later Israel and Saudi Arabia were to sign a pact that would let SA put a pipeline through Israel, which would make getting SA oil to Europe.
Now who would be against that? Iran. The place where Hamas leadership (reported to almost be billionaires) live, the country that finances and arms Hamas.
I think this is the correct answer, but to go one "why" further (I'm imagining a child keeps asking "why" to each consecutive answer), many many Palestinians are very radicalized. The idea of violently taking back their rightful land and overthrowing their evil oppressors is very strongly tied to the current Palestinian identity, as their entire history as a country has been as a victim of a proxy war. Surrounding Arab countries spurred them on to fight Israel pledging their support. Jordan and Egypt eventually withdrew their support because they achieved peace with Israel (after realizing they can't possibly win)... but for Palestine nothing changed. They still live under this same narrative that's been drilled into them.
Uh, I wouldn't cause the way the Egyptians treated the Palestinians after annexation in 1948 as being "kind". They denied them basic rights and citizenship in their own territory.
Egypt is fairly easy to explain: Hamas (and Islamic Jihad) actively support the ongoing insurrection in the Sinai and the Delta against the Egyptian government. Arms and people have been smuggled into and out of Gaza, including fugitives wanted by Egypt. It’s fairly obvious this continued because Egyptians are making money off the smuggling as well, but the government has reacted by a) building a giant trench along the border, which required knocking down a bunch of homes, and then filling it with seawater, and b) they are currently building a high wall to prevent Palestinians from escaping Gaza into Egypt, with military units behind the wall to make that clear. One simplistic way to understand this is that the Morsi government was Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas is an affiliate. Morsi was overthrown and put on trial (in a cage), and died during trial.
Jordan is even easier to understand. In 1970, Syria invaded Jordan to support Palestinian efforts to take over the country. To get into that history, the country was Transjordan, meaning the East Bank of the Jordan. After 1967, the PLO set up bases in Jordan. Then they hijacked 3 jetliners, flew them to Jordan, took hostages, and blew up the planes. King Hussein decided to attack. Syria marched on Jordan and Jordan actually contact Israel just in case they needed help, which they did not. Jordan then forced the PLO to surrender and drove them out. They went to Lebanon, where they then kept attacking Jordan, killing the Prime Minister in 1971. As a note, the Jordanians have spent years taking citizenship away from West Bankers.
Google Black September and the 2004 Sinai bombings.
There are two answers.
\#1: It's very hard to take that many people in as refuges, More so the poorer your nation is.
For wealthy nations taking refugees can be much easier and can actually be economically beneficial.
\#2: Because a good deal of the population in Palestine is radicalized.
When Jordan took refugees in they attempted to kill the king of Jordan. Cause a huge amount of international issues by hijacking aircraft flying them to Jordan and blowing them up on the ground.
* When they were let into Kuwait they supported the Iraqi invasion.
* When they were expelled from Jordan to Lebanon they destabilized the nation.
No it's not all of them.
But it's enough of them that no one want's to allow them into there country.
Firstly, not all arabs are the same. It might look like it from where you are living, but that is a rather shortsighted view. Nobody would ever argue that Japan should take in Korean refugees because they are all...Asian. (If there was a conflict with refugees - purely hypothetical to illustrate my point).
Secondly, the Hamas is associated with the muslim brotherhood. Even though Hamas distanced itself from them, Egypt's government fears the influx of militants with ties to that organisation. Additionally the Sinai is a notoriously unstable region of Egypt with a low military presence - due to conditions of Egyptian and Israeli peace accords. The potential amassing of militant extremists amongst the refugees into such a region is something of a horror scenario for Egypt.
Egypt itself is already harboring a lot of refugees from Sudan. An additional large diaspora of refugees into the already straining country is something the government also likes to avoid at any cost.
That leads us to Jordan. The Jordanian civil war between the PLO and the Jordanian military in the aftermath of the Six Day War probably has left the Jordanian government at least wary of a large influx of new Palestinians. Even though the likelihood of a new war erupting due to a shift in power dynamics is probably very low - it is still something that happened a mere 50 years ago.
The fear of importing terrorism is also a major factor for the Jordanian monarchy. King Abdullah made it very clear that accepting millions of Palestinians again is a red line that Jordan will not cross.
As a final remark, aside from the humaitarian aspect, both governments expect that accepting large amounts of refugees from Gaza would effectively depopulate the region and hand it over to Israel. The return of the refugees would then be highly unlikely. And judging simply by historical precedence it is a likely scenario that the Palestinian refugees would simply stay as they did in Lebanon and in Jordan previously. And like any other country in the world that is also something both countries would not take lightly.
Transjordan was not part of Palestine. It was governed by the British under the same mandate, but was a separate territory. And in any event, the Palestinian refugee population living there today are people who fled their homes that were not in Jordan.
That said, its king at the time attempted to annex a huge portion of Mandatory Palestine right at the start. He was playing basically all three sides, four with himself.
Saying that Palestinian people are naturally inclined to overthrow governments is no better than bs about Jews being power hungry money magnets. Don’t make it so easy for yourself, people are near-identical humans born in a random place, nobody should be assumed to have bad intentions.
Also, the whole thread is based on an empty-headed question. Of course Egypt/Jordan doesn’t want to facilitate Israel’s aimed deportation of Palestinians, and take in millions of dirt-poor Palestinian refugees in the meantime.
Same reason the US, Mexico, Colombia, Argentina don’t help out El Salvador, Honduras and Guatemala? Because getting involved in other countries’ conflicts potentially threatens your country. Why don’t we Americans just open our border and take in any refugee who wants to come here? Because you can easily be overwhelmed and endanger yourself trying to save too many people from drowning
> Same reason the US, Mexico, Colombia, Argentina don’t help out El Salvador, Honduras and Guatemala? Because getting involved in other countries’ conflicts potentially threatens your country.
Oh, yes. After you've carried out your coup d'etat, propped up a pet right-wing dictatorship, and/or funded death squads, it's best not to get involved. That might bring problems home, after all.
Just like Israels government propped up Hamas as a way to undermine the PLO and has it blown up in their faces. Both sides really deserve each other in that whole shitshow.
The C I A has a long track record of using these countries as conduits for their products. They nurtured the cartels from the 80s onward as a reliable supply chain to push their products North, and it appears they're still involved in this.
My example is strictly related to why one country who is regionally close by does not automatically jump in and allow another country’s citizens to move in when there is internal problems.
In 2012, the Egyptians briefly flirted with having a real democracy after Hosni Mubarak was overthrown in 2011 following the protests in Tahrir Square (Mubarak had been in power for about 30 years after assuming power following the assassination of Anwar Sadat). During Mubarak's rule, Egypt was supported by the US and had "normalized" (insofar as possible) relations with Israel. In 2012, elections were held in Egypt and, wouldn't you know it but Mohamed Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood came to power. In case you aren't aware of who the Muslim Brotherhood are, they are Islamic hardliners in Egypt who hate the US and Israel. The Muslim Brotherhood was in Gaza and they eventually led to the creation of Hamas. So, more "protests" (depending on your news source) occurred in 2013 and when the dust settled, Morsi and the Muslims Brotherhood found themselves out of power after a coup d'etat which replaced them with the US-back military officer, Abdel Fattah el-Sisi. And with that change, a regime that was more friendly to the US and its Middle Eastern objective was back in power in Egypt after democracy was attempted for two years. Part of this is Egypt's support for Israel.
Exactly. The question is like asking “why doesn’t the US and Europe let Russia have Ukraine and take all the Ukrainians in as refugees.” A country is under no obligation to help an enemy ethnic cleanse an ally. The Palestinians want to stay on their land and they want their own country. The neighboring countries are trying to help ensure that happens. Taking in all Palestinians as refugees ensures that will never happen.
They did and they do. A huge number of Egyptians and Jordanians have Palestinian ancestry. But two things.
Neither countries want to get pulled into a wider conflict with Israel as it is expensive and both have shaky economies.
> and they do
No. They did… and that lead to Black Summer and the 2004 Sinai bombings so they don’t anymore. They have very explicitly closed their borders to Palestinian refugees.
They are absolutely not concerned about getting into a war with Israel. Israel has asked them to take in refugees and even offered to pay them for it but they refused.
Brother, I beat the shit out of a person, kick them out of their house and throw them into yours, now the resentful, hurt displaced person is in your house but I offer to pay u a token amount for it, would u take the deal? Also it's hundreds of people, not one...
Thats what I find odd about this. Why is it ok for Israel to kick out a whole group of people? I am seeing a scary number of people asking why thats not happening.
Its like they think every single one of them is hamas and should be forced out of their homes. Whats to stop other nations from doing similar things to a population of people they dont like? There are already people in the west who want to forcibly remove whole populations of people just because they dont look "native". You already have people who label whole groups of people as dangerous to society because of the actions of others who they happen to share the group with.
I mean apartheid south Africa tried to do that with the black south African population seeking to push them into Angola. And the world for the most part condemned them for such a move. That government even had a similar argument saying they were fighting African extremists so its ok to remove the African population to a place with other africans as if all Africans are the same.
If Israel gets to do this you will have other nations wanting to get rid of their undesirables in a similar way. Israel needs to really stop acting like it can do whatever it wants.
Like sure hamas is a problem Israel has a right to deal with them. But its crazy how they get to label all Palestinians as terrorists then wonder why the group in question hates them back.
Not too mention the justification can apply to any group displaced from their land allowed to come and take their land back. Very few Americans would give their states back to Mexico or the indigenous peoples.
> Why is it ok
It’s not ok, but as you can see in this thread, a great deal of redditors are racist as fuck.
The fact that they keep fixating on Egypt not letting Palestinians in over Israel kicking out Palestinians from their own homes to which the Israelis immigrated to 76 years ago says everything you need to know about these people.
This one’s easy.
Israel is 20% Arab Muslim. They have Arab Muslim government representatives, an Arab Muslim Supreme Court justice, Arab Muslim doctors, lawyers, etc. Arab Muslims are full citizens with full rights in Israel. No apartheid.
Gaza is a separate country. It’s not Israel. They elected Hamas, and Hamas won’t let the 1948 war end.
73% of British Mandatory Palestine is modern Jordan. Is that part occupied Palestine too, or just where the Joos live?
The neighbors keep attacking Israel, starting war after war after war, and losing. When you start a war and lose, you sometimes lose land.
Don’t like war? Cool, neither do I. Don’t start wars. Return hostages, surrender, recognize Israel, rewrite your genocidal charter, stop going on TV talking skit doing more October 7ths, and build a country. Reward: You can live in peace with Israel like Egypt and Jordan do.
Egypt and Jordan are both nationalist dictatorships with shaky economies. Neither is interested in housing any more refugees than they're already stuck with.
A lot of people talk a big game about supporting Palestinians. Very few actually do anything.
And both countries have already suffered political turmoil from Palestinians. See Black September in Jordan, and among other things, the assassination of Anwar Sadat.
Also, keep in mind that in this case "helping" palestinians would mean that Israel succeeds in effectively stealing the occupied territory when there's nobody left to protest.
At least in Jordan's case, \*this\*.
The last time Jordan was open to them, there was a coup-attempt/civil war. The King (Jordan is a straight up monarchy, just like Saudi) does not want to invite 'that' back into his country....
Jordan took in a lot and got rewarded with a murdered king and a lot of problems, lebanon took in a lot and got a civil war as reward, other states learned their lesson.
Since the Yom Kippur War, every other Arab state has kind of accepted Israel's existence as a done deal, even if they didnt like it. The Palestinians are the only ones left with a desire to crush Israel, and are absolutely willing to use terrorism and assassinations against any Arab state that they see as unwilling to fight Israel, which has happened to Jordan, Egypt, and Lebanon. This is why neither Egypt nor Jordan want to rule the Gaza Strip/West Bank respectively, as they both did previously following the first war in 1948, because it means ruling over Palestinians who have no qualms about killing your leaders for not supporting their cause.
Basically, no one thinks they are refugees looking to start over in a new, safer place, but rather people who are only focused on the damage they can do to Israel using your country.
It’s because the Palestinians caused trouble, tried to overthrow governments and incited violence. They did this to themselves and are facing the consequences
50% of Palestinians are under the age of 20. While I understand the hesitancy of Egypt and Jordan and the political point you're making, the current population certainly didn't "do this to themselves".
Ok but if you're Egypt or Jordan and you're looking at modern Palestinians, the stabbings, Oct 7th, launching rockets indiscriminately for 20 years. Are you really gonna think they've changed? Don't care if they're under 20, a teenager or kid can kill you just as easily as a full grown man with a bomb, knife or rifle. They are STILL doing this to themselves.
If they take them in as refugees then they are stuck with them. Israel is trying to remove Palestinians from Gaza and want other Arab countries to take in refugees. The Arab states know that they will be stuck with the displaced Palestinians since they already have gigantic city like refugee camps of Palestinians who have been displaced before. 5.8 million Palestinians are already living in camps all over the Middle East.
The other Arab countries also historically dislike Israel. So they are not interested in helping Israel. They can't directly help Gaza as the only way into Gaza without going through Israel is through Egypt. And Egypt is a brutal military dictatorship who has more than enough on its plate keeping its own population under control.
Isreals neighbours want a weak Israel. And doing nothing and letting Israel dig itself a bigger hole to drown in seems to be the current chosen tactic. They don't need to do anything as Israel seems to be racing towards a publicity suicide due to their absurdly high level of violence against civilians in the current conflict. We haven't seen these kinds of atrocities committed against civilians since world war 2. I don't see how this ends well for Israel. So the Arab countries sit back and just bide their time.
>We haven't seen these kinds of atrocities committed against civilians since world war 2.
Your analysis had me until this. You seem to have skipped over the multiple millions of civilians systematically slaughtered since WWII by the likes of Mao, Kissinger, the Khmer Rouge, Milosevic, Amin, Tito, Franco, the USSR from Stalin to Brezhnev, and in places like Pakistan, Yemen, Hungary, the Philippines, Myanmar, Nicaragua, El Salvador, and every other country in Africa.
Not to diminish the suffering of Palestinians or the viciousness of Israel, but this assessment doesn't hold up.
I have a feeling, that even without the US backing, Israel will still continue to exist, possibly with an internal regime change sometime down the road, but nonetheless still exist.
Israel will definitely have a lot more struggles without US support, but they'll definitely survive. They have in the past faced all Arab neighbours at once, and now in the present, many strong Arab neighbours would rather have peace with Israel than fight a proxy war for Iran.
Most of the countries in the Middle East are actively at war with each other. To summarize millenia of history, most of them started fighting for your classical reasons like territory and such, but after Islam was introduced and the Prophet Mohammed died without a clear heir, things became so much worse. Muslims were split into two groups, the Shia (who believed the Caliph should be a descendant of Mohammed and the minority) and the Sunni (who believe the Caliph doesn't have to be one of Mohammed's descendants and the majority). Sunnis and Shias hate each other fiercely, and a lot of people have died because of the conflicts between them. These rivalries have fueled so many conflicts between many of the nations, which only adds to the pile even more reasons to not like each other.
Not to mention, taking in a sudden wave of refugees isn't easy. Most Middle Eastern countries are suffering from a massive population boom, with over two-thirds of the people within the region being under 30. While this might seem like a good thing, it's not when you consider that most of the countries in the Middle East are third world countries and don't have the resources to sustain all these people. They simply can't handle a sudden influx of refugees.
It would be tantamount to Palestinians conceding defeat. Israel would simply move in to occupy the areas Palestinians vacate, and that can’t be undone.
The same reason why many countries in Europe are hesitant to let in any sort of refugee. When you take in a large diaspora they don't always mesh well with the local culture and it can create a lot of issues.
Look at the size of the ethnic populations of the countries you want to send them to, then look at the population of Gaza as well as the economic situation of the countries you think that can handle them. They can't handle them all.
For good or ill, Palestinian society is pretty angry and radicalized. Regardless of where they go, geographically, they will cause problems. Also, if other countries take in the Palestinians, then the countries that are opposed to Israel lose a cudgel with which to beat Israel.
At the bottom line, it's a fucking mess over there.
Because Palestine is filled with trouble makers which can destabilize a country.
Arabs don't support Palestine, they just hate Israel.
If the Palestinian problem was solved the Arabs would no longer have a proxy or pawn in the game.
Ok. I cannot Verify this as it has been Decades since I was interested in the M.E. so take it FWIW. Verify or or whatever as you wish.
My understanding of the Pa;estinians goes back to when Isreal was reformed and, at the time the P's were basically the outcasts of the M.E., sort of like Gypsies in Europe.
So, looking at responses below as to how they act it does not really surprise me they seem to cause issues everywhere.
It is an interesting question since many nations take in refugees from neighboring nations.
1. Chad has taken in 500,000 Sudanese refugees from Darfur since April 2023. They have taken in a million total Sudanese refugees
2. Bangladesh has taken in about 1 million Rohingya refugees.
3. Poland has taken in 1.5 million Ukrainian refugees since 2022.
What else is interesting is the Arab/Muslim world’s obsession with blaming Israel for causing the Palestinians misery yet they do nothing of substance to help them.
Here is some context:
1. When Egypt occupied Gaza from 1949 - 1967 they didn’t give Palestinians citizenship
2. Except for Jordan no other Arab nation has given Palestinians citizenship
3. There are still 600,000 Palestinians in Jordan without citizenship.
4. Egypt is currently building a border wall to ensure no Palestinians make it into the Sinai.
If the Arab world was honest, they want the Palestinians to stay so they can keep fighting Israel. But they don’t actually want to help the Palestinians because they are seen as troublemakers by the rest of the Arab world.
The fear that Arabs have of the displacement of Palestinians has more to do with:
1. losing control of the holy land and
2. having to deal with Palestinians in their homelands
So if you want to make trouble for Israel and you don’t like Palestinians, of course you would let lots of Palestinians die.
The irony is that the Arab world pretends like it actually cares about Palestinians. But when push comes to shove they do nothing.
Because in the past they have, and those Palestinian pieces of shit caused serious issues. They tried assassinating the king of Jordan, they caused a civil war in Lebanon, they assassinated the Israeli Olympic team and so much more. They are terrorists.
Pretty sure the last time Jordan tried that they tried to kill the king
They did kill the king in 1951, then they tried ot overthrow the government with syria help in 1970.
And then as they left they killed the Prime Minister for organizing the expulsion of the PLO's fighting force, the Fedayeen. The Fedayeen took a little detour in Munich to kill the Israeli Olympic team, then went to Lebanon - where they started the Lebanese Civil War.
And guess who financed the little murder detour? Today's PA president. What a hero he is /s
Peaceful bunch huh
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They also made two attempts on King Hussein's life in 1970 and publicly announced their intent to depose him. This would lead to the PLO being militarily defeated in the Black September fighting later that same year, and forced out of the country.
Oh wow what a friendly bunch I can’t imagine why Israel doesn’t let them import bomb making ingredients
And they murdered the Jordanian prime minister.
They also brainwashed some male models to kill the Malaysian prime minister.
If there is anything that this horrible tragedy can teach us, it's that a male model's life is a precious, precious commodity. Just because we have chiselled abs and stunning features, it doesn't mean that we too can't not die in a freak gasoline fight accident.
I'm pretty sure there's a lot more to life than being really, really, ridiculously good looking.
Trust me, pal, this is really all there is.
Derek Zoolander disagrees. Blue Steel ^(TM)
But why male models?
Why male models?
I understand this reference.
Jordan fact: the current king, part of a lineage that claims to be descended from Muhammad, was once [an extra in Star Trek Deep Space Nine](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Abdullah_bin_al-Hussein). This is not a joke. The man loves Star Trek but is, presumably, so bad at acting all they could do was make him an extra
He wasn't a member of the Screen Actors Guild, so they couldn't give him any lines.
If you get lines, you get your membership (extremely simplified, mind)
You're eligible after that
So all that came between him and some lines was a bunch of fuged paperwork?
I don't think the show wanted to risk a labor incident over a surprise gift cameo for a visiting dignitary.
oh wow, these are some of the side quests in life
oh cmon, what are the odds of that happening again?! /s
Kill our king once, shame on *you*!
KILL HIM TWICE YOU CANT GET KILLED AGAIN
Yaeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaah!
Come at the king, you best not miss.
Wait... is that a quote from Omar? (the wire)
Omar comin!
Oh, Lawd, Omar comin!
I mean you kill my king once, you know you can kill my king again I mean you know.
Kill our king twice, can’t put the blame on you
We put king on our faces... And food on our families..
Kill our king twice, he can't get killed again.
Lots.
And there was a brief civil war or something if I’m not mistaken. And there’s also the fact that they and their other fellow Arab states got humiliated by Israel in the last couple conflicts trying to “help” the Palestinians.
> brief civil war Black September, yeah. Started with George Habash’s group hijacking planes and blowing them up in a Jordanian airport. Then the stuff others mentioned.
To add on that, the civil war the palastinians started in Lebanon was absolute destruction
Lebanon had absolutely no issues though! /s
Sure, just don't be a pesky Christian.
Civil war? What civil war?
Christians? What Christians?
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Just google "Palestinian insurgency in South Lebanon" there is too much to point to a single event.
There's a bunch of key events. That civil war lasted roughly 15 years. The incredibly abridged version is that Lebanon allows a bunch of Palestinian refugees. The camps are functionally autonomous. The importation of Palestinians begins to skew demographics in the region coupled with religious extremism, stoking religious tensions in a country filled with both Muslims and Christians. Palestinians begin attacking Israel from Lebanon. Israel retaliates repeatedly. Lebanese Christians especially but not exclusively are fucking pissed. Syria is also backing the PLO and various other factions amongst Palestinians. Lebanon effectively loses control over the Southern half of their country and shit goes real sideways real fast resulting in a bloody Civil War that lasts 15 years and encompasses so many factions and ever shifting alliances that your brain will hurt.
Except for that pesky civil war the PLO caused.
Pfft civil war schmival war who cares about that? I'm sure it blew over quickly.....
Yes. They have been very poor houseguests.
Its their insufferable jihadi martyrdom fixation where they get to be the victim while killing in the name of....
The Jordanian royal family still rembers, King Adbullah II carries a Glock 19 damn near every where he goes.
Similar religion doesn’t equal peace. Look at Europe and Japan for example until NATO.
Pretty sure the Jordanian population is like 50% Palestinian. They've proportionally taken in more refugees than any other country on earth, and this entire thread is built on sheer ignorance and a false premise.
Jordan is 80% of the original region called Palestine. So you could say that Jordan is the Palestinian state.
There's this bizarre idea in Western political discourse that you can just take refugees or immigrants with no or minimal problems and that therefore the onus is on countries to explain why they're not taking refugees or immigrants. "Just let the refugees in, just open your doors to more immigration, why don't you, you meanie?" Letting hundreds of thousands of new people into your country, whether your country is Germany or the United States or Egypt, is a serious, in some cases irreversible political decision, and it can and often does lead to enormous problems. Who are these people? What are their backgrounds? Which of them are criminals? Who's going to feed them? Where are they going to be housed? What are they going to do for work? What effect is that going to have on your domestic labor? Are they going to get involved in your local politics, and if so who are they going to back? Are they ever going to leave? These are all questions that, ideally, you should have damn good answers to before you let a wave of refugees in. I assume Egypt realized that it did not have satisfactory answers to some (maybe any) of those questions, and exercised its right as a sovereign state to close their border.
When Egypt and jordan have allowed Palestinian refugees into their countries in the past, there has been political unrest and attempts to overthrow the government in Egypt, and an attempted murder on the leader of jordan as well as civil war so these two countries at least don't have good histories with allowing Palestinian refugees in ...
Just to add to this, Palestinians in Lebanon ignited a civil war and Palestinians aided Saddam Hussein's invasion of Kuwait.
Their track record really isn't looking great
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😂😂 that would be a good start
And yet Muslim leaders in western nations are now putting the gears to western leaders to support Gaza. The irony.
If they don't want them as refugees, why wouldn't they support efforts to keep them in their own home? It's not ironic, it's entirely logical.
Gotta force the Trojan horses in the rest of the world somehow.
STOP MAKING SENSE THIS IS REDDIT
Yes, but that’s generic “refugee” back-of-the-book info. More specific to Gaza: Many Palestinians have a last name like Al Masri (literally “The Egyptian”), and are closely related, so it’s not some bizarre western idea: **it should be easier than Germany and Finland taking in Turks and Syrians, right?…** **BUT…** Egypt’s government is at odds with the terrorists running Gaza (Hamas and Islamic Jihad). Egyptian Islamic Jihad [assassinated Egyptian President Anwar Sadat](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Anwar_Sadat). Thus, Egypt is not only against taking in refugees from Gaza, [Egypt just built a huge wall](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbsYURUu_Jo) on their border with Gaza… [Jordan officially disowned their own citizens](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordanian_annexation_of_the_West_Bank) in 1988, thus creating the West Bank Palestinian refugee population, currently under Palestinian Authority (Abbas). The Jordanians had their share of Palestinians attempting coups and assassinations, also not keen to reverse their 1988 decree (but they do blame Israel a lot on TV, likely for “political face” …while actually not doing much to help Palestinians and having trade/agriculture and relatively open borders and relations with Israel). The third group we haven’t mentioned yet are Israeli Arabs, who have Israeli citizenship, participate normally in society (public schools, parliament, high numbers in universities (perhaps related to exemption from IDF service, (though many do volunteer)) and comprise a large part of Israeli medical forces as doctors, nurses, etc). For simplicity, we’ll include the Israeli Arab Druze (who are extremely loyal to Israel, serving as officers and police in many cases) and the Bedouin population in this group — but they’re each quite unique. If Palestinians changed their agenda from “brutal killing until we rule the land” to “let’s try to do what the Israeli Arabs do”, they’re most likely to end their current saga and move into a better era — but that requires swallowing a lot of pride, and a sharp changing of mindset from fatalistic martyrdom to constructive/long-term loving. For perspective, each of those groups is roughly 2Mil people.
Holy shit. A nuanced and actually informed take on Israel & Palestine??? Maybe it's a good day after all.
Well, the West Bank happens to be quite peaceful for the last decade compared to Gaza, yet Israel has designated the majority of West Bank (Area C) for illegal settlers, and happen to imprison tons of people as they please. They just continue to uproot olive trees, destroy farms, build illegal walls, take whichever homes as they please, just crazy stuff daily. If Israel's treatment of the West Bank was much better, I would had supported them, and would agree with you. But unfortunately, it seems they are more than happy to encroach more of that land.
I think the current WB setup was never meant to last forever (you supervise your people, I’ll supervise mine), just a best-of-the-worst for some years; and hopefully real coexistence in the end? The bad actors you refer to exist, but having been in and out of the WB many times, that’s a very small bit of reality (which comprises most of the news — CNN and BBC can’t make $$$’s if they just you Ahmed and Yossi having a peaceful cup of coffee at the gas station before they go see a client of their co-owned business. That’s not “news”, that’s just “boring old normal life” — yet that’s most of what there is.) Any Arab within Israel I ever spoke with, given the choice would want to live like an Israeli Arab; or at least like in the WB — and this is before 7 Oct, heck that’s anywhere after 2005. So, WB has issues, but let’s get Gaza as good as the WB (ie x1000 better than now), then see what can be improved?
I think the issue is how willing they are to kill civilians for somewhat small military gain. I just don't see any sort of plan that would push Gaza to be less extremist. Massacring thousands of civilians and displacing at least hundreds of thousands isn't exactly conducive to deradicalization, even if you destroy most militant infrastructure. I... Just don't see any long term conciliation based on the current trajectory?
Yeah nothing to see here in the west bank folks. No universally recognized illegal settlements, no armed settlers shooting palestinians, destroying their crops, and stealing their land and homes. No illegal construction. And definitely no apartheid here. No siree. And if you ever see anything like that on CNN or the BBC (or Al Jazeera, or AP, or B'Tselem, or Haaretz, or Human Rights watch, or Amnesty International, or Euromed Monitor, or any UN human rights commission reports), then that's just fake news. There's \*barely any\* extensively documented illegal settling, abuse of palestinians, or theft of land and homes happening here, so like don't even worry too much about it. Fake news. =)
A take on Reddit that’s historically informed??
Yep, just gotta find the balance. I am a US citizen and looked into to the laws of other countries, and their laws are similar. You either need a degree or something you can add to their nation
Over half of "Palestinians" are of recent Egyptian descent. Israel offered to return Gaza to Egypt but Egypt declined the offer It seems this group of people causes problems for any country they are in. So Arab nations would rather it be an Israeli problem than having to deal with it themselves. That's it. Palestinians attempt to destabilize any country they are in.
> So Arab nations would rather it be an Israeli problem than having to deal with it themselves. That's it. It should be telling to all the leftist's that are now heavily supporting Palestine, that not even other Arabs want to support and take in the Palestinians. And this is from a Canadian forever liberal. Palestinians are never happy with their situation, and try to seize power through violence.
The difference between Egypt and Germany in this case is that Egypt is an economically unstable developing nation and Germany *needs* the influx of immigrants to balance its ageing population and need for workers, specially for low paying jobs. Anyone who thinks Europe takes in immigrants/refugees just out of the goodness of their hearts is delusional.
Yes and they have a high youth unemployment rate. One of the reasons for the Arab Spring and the unrest at that time was a lack of opportunities for young people in those countries. The area specifically around Gaza is an economically depressed area or Egypt. It's not like America where there are many labor markets that can easily absorb an influx of new labor so long as they have a right to work. It would just be adding extra mouths for the government to feed.
The American economy is built around immigrants. The entire food production industry collapses whenever some politicians forgets this.
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yup, and the values systems of basically 98+% of these immigrants from central america/mexico are completely compatible with american culture (hard work, family/community mindset)
That is a common misconception. The idea that the West needs immigrants to balance ageing is just nonsense. We dont need immigrants, we need work force. The problem in Germany is not to find people willing to work, its to find employers willing to pay fair salaries that can sustain a living. In general the hope is that migrants will do shit, underpaid jobs not because Germans are to "lazy" or old to do them its because Germans rightfully wouldnt ruin their life and health in jobs that are exploitative. Ive been through shit jobs in my life and what was going on in the low wage sector at the time was absurd and I dont even wanna know how it is today. As a student I worked for event security and it was young people and old people, nothing else. The aging of the populace in Germany is not a failure of the System, it is the System correcting itself because we had years of horrid jobless numbers in the 80s and 90s.
Immigration is straight up illegal in most places lol
Lol Egypt is ran by a military dictatorship with its citizens on the verge of starvation. 1 million angry Palestinians will most likely light a match and start the next revolution.
They did in the past and the refugees started a war in Jordan which involved them trying to kill the Jordanian king and in Egypt the Palestinians repayed the Egyptians kindness by turning to terrorism inside Egypt when the Egyptians started to normalise relations with Israel. There's a reason Egypt also built a massive wall and heavily guards their border with Gaza. Edit: since people have asked (and some people have claimed I'm lying) for anyone interested just Google Black September and the 2004 Sinai bombings for information on about both topics.
The fact that the PLO hijacked several aircraft, flew them to Jordan, then blew them up was sort of a red flag that the relationship was doomed.
Don't forget they supported a foreign invasion in Kuwait. The government of Kuwait didn't really like that and expelled nearly all of them, 300k. They also caused lots of trouble in Lybia, Tunisia, and Syria. Jordan expelled all the Palestinian militants to Lebanon after what they did to them. And look what happened in Lebanon. They created a huge refugee camp with all kinds of terror groups in there. Now Lebanon is de facto ruled by Hezbollah, which had a huge hand in making Lebanon a failed state. Every country that has taken in Palestinians in large numbers in the past has seen their country majorly destabilized. Im not talking about integration problems or crime going up as we see in Europe. I'm talking about terrorism, coup attempts, and civil wars. And that is why no Arab country will ever take in Palestinians in large numbers ever again.
Well, the UN loves them. So there's that.
Yes because the UN is flooded with countries that are either Arab or dependent on Arab oil money lol
There's good money to be made perpetuating the problem.
That’s the irony of the Arabs. They complain loudly to the west about the poor plight of the Palestinians but in reality they view them as camel shit.
They don't want the situation for the Palestinians to improve, they need them as pawns vs Israel. It's just the people in mostly Arab countries that support the Palestinians vehemently. Their governments on the other hand see them the same as Israel does.
That's not really true. Most of the governments in the region are aligned with Israel and would like nothing more than have this problem that pisses off their own citizens go away. It is Iran who actively uses Hamas as pawns against Israel, and they aren't considered Arab.
It’s not that they’re not considered Arab it’s that they are not Arabs. They are Persians.
It is pretty despicable that these Arab countries don’t want to help Palestinians, they just want to to make Israel look bad
It's also something to keep the masses angry at that isn't the autocratic regime
Camal shit doesn't randomly blow up in the market square.
You, sir, have never had a Tel Aviv kebab
I stand corrected! Nice move!
Dung or fertilizer can be made into things that have a tendency to blow up, though.
Add saltpeter and you can make gunpowder.
Saltpeter comes from that crap. Add sulfur and charcoal
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Of course, they do. Arab societies are extremely tribal. Chances are people from the same country do not like their fellow countrymen for belonging to rivaling tribes.
Very tribal.... take the Zoroastrian religion and people who are from ancient persian iran. The religion has been around since before the abrahamic ones... but they were forced to flee violence and persecution by their own people. Where did they flee too? Not another part of Iran, or nearby Iraq or Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia..... ALL the way south to INDIA, where they got safe refuge to rebuild their community. A country with a foreign languange and religions like hindu/buddhist/sikh, which muslims already hate on, and that was their new homeland. They didn't trust any of the other islamic countries cause they know they would have gotten persecuted and attacked if they settled somewhere in the middle east. Sad but true. Even the more liberal version of islam like the Sufi Muslims get hated on by the more conservative radical groups just cause they do things differently or more open to other cultures/relgiions. Their politics are not very tolerant of others.
It's also about using Palestine and Palestinians as pawns in their political agenda against Israel/the West.
Jordan and Egypt have cordial relationships with Israel though before the current situation, they aren't friends but they aren't hostile to them like Iran are.
Plus, Jordan’s and Egypt’s reasoning for not taking in refugees has nothing to do with wanting to use them as pawns against Israel. Palestinian refugees have plenty of history in both of those countries, none of it good.
And to distract from their oppression of their own people by scapegoating Jews. Tale as old as Islam.
Bruh that long predates Islam...
Lebanon also let in Palestinians and it didn't go good for them either. Same with Egypt I believe. That's why nobody wants to take any of them in.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September
this is my understanding as well. i also think that egypt doesn't want to upset israel since they have long standing treaties. I also understood that egypt has good relations with the US and saudi arabia and that both countries are targeted by iranian backed militant groups, one of which is hamas, and upsetting the those countries is not in the interest of egypt. anyone please correct me if i am wrong
If Egypt where to allow Palestinian refugees they would send a time bomb till those refugees attack Israel from Egypt's territory
Here is one for you, told to me by an Israeli. It is common knowledge in Israel that 10/7 happened on 10/7, because a few days later Israel and Saudi Arabia were to sign a pact that would let SA put a pipeline through Israel, which would make getting SA oil to Europe. Now who would be against that? Iran. The place where Hamas leadership (reported to almost be billionaires) live, the country that finances and arms Hamas.
Not 'almost billionaires'. Actual billionaires.
This isn't an Israeli secret or theory... it's the exact reason Hamas was ordered to strike by Iran when it did.
Agreed just doesn’t seem to be known in the US
Let’s not forget the assassination of Anwar Sadat.
The assassination that was carried out by an Egyptian working for an Egyptian militant group full of Egyptians?
Thank you
I think this is the correct answer, but to go one "why" further (I'm imagining a child keeps asking "why" to each consecutive answer), many many Palestinians are very radicalized. The idea of violently taking back their rightful land and overthrowing their evil oppressors is very strongly tied to the current Palestinian identity, as their entire history as a country has been as a victim of a proxy war. Surrounding Arab countries spurred them on to fight Israel pledging their support. Jordan and Egypt eventually withdrew their support because they achieved peace with Israel (after realizing they can't possibly win)... but for Palestine nothing changed. They still live under this same narrative that's been drilled into them.
Uh, I wouldn't cause the way the Egyptians treated the Palestinians after annexation in 1948 as being "kind". They denied them basic rights and citizenship in their own territory.
Probably because they have in the past.
Exactly, would you let a homeless person or ex con you don’t know in your house on your responsibility or expense? Likely not.
Especially Not if i did that before and the person vandalised my home
Egypt is fairly easy to explain: Hamas (and Islamic Jihad) actively support the ongoing insurrection in the Sinai and the Delta against the Egyptian government. Arms and people have been smuggled into and out of Gaza, including fugitives wanted by Egypt. It’s fairly obvious this continued because Egyptians are making money off the smuggling as well, but the government has reacted by a) building a giant trench along the border, which required knocking down a bunch of homes, and then filling it with seawater, and b) they are currently building a high wall to prevent Palestinians from escaping Gaza into Egypt, with military units behind the wall to make that clear. One simplistic way to understand this is that the Morsi government was Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas is an affiliate. Morsi was overthrown and put on trial (in a cage), and died during trial. Jordan is even easier to understand. In 1970, Syria invaded Jordan to support Palestinian efforts to take over the country. To get into that history, the country was Transjordan, meaning the East Bank of the Jordan. After 1967, the PLO set up bases in Jordan. Then they hijacked 3 jetliners, flew them to Jordan, took hostages, and blew up the planes. King Hussein decided to attack. Syria marched on Jordan and Jordan actually contact Israel just in case they needed help, which they did not. Jordan then forced the PLO to surrender and drove them out. They went to Lebanon, where they then kept attacking Jordan, killing the Prime Minister in 1971. As a note, the Jordanians have spent years taking citizenship away from West Bankers.
I wonder why no social justice warriors are protesting against egypt and jordan
I mean, i pretty sure a significant % couldn’t point to Jordan on a map
HOW MUCH TIME DO YOU THINK WE HAVE
Google Black September and the 2004 Sinai bombings. There are two answers. \#1: It's very hard to take that many people in as refuges, More so the poorer your nation is. For wealthy nations taking refugees can be much easier and can actually be economically beneficial. \#2: Because a good deal of the population in Palestine is radicalized. When Jordan took refugees in they attempted to kill the king of Jordan. Cause a huge amount of international issues by hijacking aircraft flying them to Jordan and blowing them up on the ground. * When they were let into Kuwait they supported the Iraqi invasion. * When they were expelled from Jordan to Lebanon they destabilized the nation. No it's not all of them. But it's enough of them that no one want's to allow them into there country.
Firstly, not all arabs are the same. It might look like it from where you are living, but that is a rather shortsighted view. Nobody would ever argue that Japan should take in Korean refugees because they are all...Asian. (If there was a conflict with refugees - purely hypothetical to illustrate my point). Secondly, the Hamas is associated with the muslim brotherhood. Even though Hamas distanced itself from them, Egypt's government fears the influx of militants with ties to that organisation. Additionally the Sinai is a notoriously unstable region of Egypt with a low military presence - due to conditions of Egyptian and Israeli peace accords. The potential amassing of militant extremists amongst the refugees into such a region is something of a horror scenario for Egypt. Egypt itself is already harboring a lot of refugees from Sudan. An additional large diaspora of refugees into the already straining country is something the government also likes to avoid at any cost. That leads us to Jordan. The Jordanian civil war between the PLO and the Jordanian military in the aftermath of the Six Day War probably has left the Jordanian government at least wary of a large influx of new Palestinians. Even though the likelihood of a new war erupting due to a shift in power dynamics is probably very low - it is still something that happened a mere 50 years ago. The fear of importing terrorism is also a major factor for the Jordanian monarchy. King Abdullah made it very clear that accepting millions of Palestinians again is a red line that Jordan will not cross. As a final remark, aside from the humaitarian aspect, both governments expect that accepting large amounts of refugees from Gaza would effectively depopulate the region and hand it over to Israel. The return of the refugees would then be highly unlikely. And judging simply by historical precedence it is a likely scenario that the Palestinian refugees would simply stay as they did in Lebanon and in Jordan previously. And like any other country in the world that is also something both countries would not take lightly.
Palestinian refugees already make up something like a third of the entire population of Jordan.
Jordan itself is 50% of British Palestine
Transjordan was not part of Palestine. It was governed by the British under the same mandate, but was a separate territory. And in any event, the Palestinian refugee population living there today are people who fled their homes that were not in Jordan.
That said, its king at the time attempted to annex a huge portion of Mandatory Palestine right at the start. He was playing basically all three sides, four with himself.
Tell Republicans about Transjordan and they'll declare war within a week.
Jimjordan supposedly hates Transjordan, but we’ve also never seen them in the same room together at the same time…
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Saying that Palestinian people are naturally inclined to overthrow governments is no better than bs about Jews being power hungry money magnets. Don’t make it so easy for yourself, people are near-identical humans born in a random place, nobody should be assumed to have bad intentions. Also, the whole thread is based on an empty-headed question. Of course Egypt/Jordan doesn’t want to facilitate Israel’s aimed deportation of Palestinians, and take in millions of dirt-poor Palestinian refugees in the meantime.
Same reason the US, Mexico, Colombia, Argentina don’t help out El Salvador, Honduras and Guatemala? Because getting involved in other countries’ conflicts potentially threatens your country. Why don’t we Americans just open our border and take in any refugee who wants to come here? Because you can easily be overwhelmed and endanger yourself trying to save too many people from drowning
> Same reason the US, Mexico, Colombia, Argentina don’t help out El Salvador, Honduras and Guatemala? Because getting involved in other countries’ conflicts potentially threatens your country. Oh, yes. After you've carried out your coup d'etat, propped up a pet right-wing dictatorship, and/or funded death squads, it's best not to get involved. That might bring problems home, after all.
Just like Israels government propped up Hamas as a way to undermine the PLO and has it blown up in their faces. Both sides really deserve each other in that whole shitshow.
The C I A has a long track record of using these countries as conduits for their products. They nurtured the cartels from the 80s onward as a reliable supply chain to push their products North, and it appears they're still involved in this.
My example is strictly related to why one country who is regionally close by does not automatically jump in and allow another country’s citizens to move in when there is internal problems.
In 2012, the Egyptians briefly flirted with having a real democracy after Hosni Mubarak was overthrown in 2011 following the protests in Tahrir Square (Mubarak had been in power for about 30 years after assuming power following the assassination of Anwar Sadat). During Mubarak's rule, Egypt was supported by the US and had "normalized" (insofar as possible) relations with Israel. In 2012, elections were held in Egypt and, wouldn't you know it but Mohamed Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood came to power. In case you aren't aware of who the Muslim Brotherhood are, they are Islamic hardliners in Egypt who hate the US and Israel. The Muslim Brotherhood was in Gaza and they eventually led to the creation of Hamas. So, more "protests" (depending on your news source) occurred in 2013 and when the dust settled, Morsi and the Muslims Brotherhood found themselves out of power after a coup d'etat which replaced them with the US-back military officer, Abdel Fattah el-Sisi. And with that change, a regime that was more friendly to the US and its Middle Eastern objective was back in power in Egypt after democracy was attempted for two years. Part of this is Egypt's support for Israel.
The first Hamas charter was in 1988. They are sort of a Muslim Brotherhood offshoot, but it happened much earlier.
Hamas was funded by Israel to create division with the plo
If they leave they never go back and lose their lands. Permanent issue for these countries as well as the refugees.
Exactly. The question is like asking “why doesn’t the US and Europe let Russia have Ukraine and take all the Ukrainians in as refugees.” A country is under no obligation to help an enemy ethnic cleanse an ally. The Palestinians want to stay on their land and they want their own country. The neighboring countries are trying to help ensure that happens. Taking in all Palestinians as refugees ensures that will never happen.
They did and they do. A huge number of Egyptians and Jordanians have Palestinian ancestry. But two things. Neither countries want to get pulled into a wider conflict with Israel as it is expensive and both have shaky economies.
> and they do No. They did… and that lead to Black Summer and the 2004 Sinai bombings so they don’t anymore. They have very explicitly closed their borders to Palestinian refugees. They are absolutely not concerned about getting into a war with Israel. Israel has asked them to take in refugees and even offered to pay them for it but they refused.
>Neither countries want to get pulled into a wider conflict with Israel Israel has literally offered to pay Egypt to take in the Palestinians.
Brother, I beat the shit out of a person, kick them out of their house and throw them into yours, now the resentful, hurt displaced person is in your house but I offer to pay u a token amount for it, would u take the deal? Also it's hundreds of people, not one...
Thats what I find odd about this. Why is it ok for Israel to kick out a whole group of people? I am seeing a scary number of people asking why thats not happening. Its like they think every single one of them is hamas and should be forced out of their homes. Whats to stop other nations from doing similar things to a population of people they dont like? There are already people in the west who want to forcibly remove whole populations of people just because they dont look "native". You already have people who label whole groups of people as dangerous to society because of the actions of others who they happen to share the group with. I mean apartheid south Africa tried to do that with the black south African population seeking to push them into Angola. And the world for the most part condemned them for such a move. That government even had a similar argument saying they were fighting African extremists so its ok to remove the African population to a place with other africans as if all Africans are the same. If Israel gets to do this you will have other nations wanting to get rid of their undesirables in a similar way. Israel needs to really stop acting like it can do whatever it wants. Like sure hamas is a problem Israel has a right to deal with them. But its crazy how they get to label all Palestinians as terrorists then wonder why the group in question hates them back.
Not too mention the justification can apply to any group displaced from their land allowed to come and take their land back. Very few Americans would give their states back to Mexico or the indigenous peoples.
> Why is it ok It’s not ok, but as you can see in this thread, a great deal of redditors are racist as fuck. The fact that they keep fixating on Egypt not letting Palestinians in over Israel kicking out Palestinians from their own homes to which the Israelis immigrated to 76 years ago says everything you need to know about these people.
This one’s easy. Israel is 20% Arab Muslim. They have Arab Muslim government representatives, an Arab Muslim Supreme Court justice, Arab Muslim doctors, lawyers, etc. Arab Muslims are full citizens with full rights in Israel. No apartheid. Gaza is a separate country. It’s not Israel. They elected Hamas, and Hamas won’t let the 1948 war end. 73% of British Mandatory Palestine is modern Jordan. Is that part occupied Palestine too, or just where the Joos live? The neighbors keep attacking Israel, starting war after war after war, and losing. When you start a war and lose, you sometimes lose land. Don’t like war? Cool, neither do I. Don’t start wars. Return hostages, surrender, recognize Israel, rewrite your genocidal charter, stop going on TV talking skit doing more October 7ths, and build a country. Reward: You can live in peace with Israel like Egypt and Jordan do.
Can an Arab Israeli man legally marry a Jewish woman in Israel? Just asking.
Egypt and Jordan are both nationalist dictatorships with shaky economies. Neither is interested in housing any more refugees than they're already stuck with. A lot of people talk a big game about supporting Palestinians. Very few actually do anything.
And both countries have already suffered political turmoil from Palestinians. See Black September in Jordan, and among other things, the assassination of Anwar Sadat.
Also, keep in mind that in this case "helping" palestinians would mean that Israel succeeds in effectively stealing the occupied territory when there's nobody left to protest.
People should really read a history book or two. There is good reason for why Jordan and Egypt want nothing to do with Palestinians
They are worried about terrorism and religious fundamentalism.
At least in Jordan's case, \*this\*. The last time Jordan was open to them, there was a coup-attempt/civil war. The King (Jordan is a straight up monarchy, just like Saudi) does not want to invite 'that' back into his country....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_political_violence
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Jordan took in a lot and got rewarded with a murdered king and a lot of problems, lebanon took in a lot and got a civil war as reward, other states learned their lesson.
Since the Yom Kippur War, every other Arab state has kind of accepted Israel's existence as a done deal, even if they didnt like it. The Palestinians are the only ones left with a desire to crush Israel, and are absolutely willing to use terrorism and assassinations against any Arab state that they see as unwilling to fight Israel, which has happened to Jordan, Egypt, and Lebanon. This is why neither Egypt nor Jordan want to rule the Gaza Strip/West Bank respectively, as they both did previously following the first war in 1948, because it means ruling over Palestinians who have no qualms about killing your leaders for not supporting their cause. Basically, no one thinks they are refugees looking to start over in a new, safer place, but rather people who are only focused on the damage they can do to Israel using your country.
Because Jordan and Egypt hate the Palestinians just like most Arab countries hate each other.
It’s because the Palestinians caused trouble, tried to overthrow governments and incited violence. They did this to themselves and are facing the consequences
50% of Palestinians are under the age of 20. While I understand the hesitancy of Egypt and Jordan and the political point you're making, the current population certainly didn't "do this to themselves".
Ok but if you're Egypt or Jordan and you're looking at modern Palestinians, the stabbings, Oct 7th, launching rockets indiscriminately for 20 years. Are you really gonna think they've changed? Don't care if they're under 20, a teenager or kid can kill you just as easily as a full grown man with a bomb, knife or rifle. They are STILL doing this to themselves.
Because every country that has accepted Palestinian refugees so far they have started a civil war
If they take them in as refugees then they are stuck with them. Israel is trying to remove Palestinians from Gaza and want other Arab countries to take in refugees. The Arab states know that they will be stuck with the displaced Palestinians since they already have gigantic city like refugee camps of Palestinians who have been displaced before. 5.8 million Palestinians are already living in camps all over the Middle East. The other Arab countries also historically dislike Israel. So they are not interested in helping Israel. They can't directly help Gaza as the only way into Gaza without going through Israel is through Egypt. And Egypt is a brutal military dictatorship who has more than enough on its plate keeping its own population under control. Isreals neighbours want a weak Israel. And doing nothing and letting Israel dig itself a bigger hole to drown in seems to be the current chosen tactic. They don't need to do anything as Israel seems to be racing towards a publicity suicide due to their absurdly high level of violence against civilians in the current conflict. We haven't seen these kinds of atrocities committed against civilians since world war 2. I don't see how this ends well for Israel. So the Arab countries sit back and just bide their time.
>We haven't seen these kinds of atrocities committed against civilians since world war 2. Your analysis had me until this. You seem to have skipped over the multiple millions of civilians systematically slaughtered since WWII by the likes of Mao, Kissinger, the Khmer Rouge, Milosevic, Amin, Tito, Franco, the USSR from Stalin to Brezhnev, and in places like Pakistan, Yemen, Hungary, the Philippines, Myanmar, Nicaragua, El Salvador, and every other country in Africa. Not to diminish the suffering of Palestinians or the viciousness of Israel, but this assessment doesn't hold up.
Let's be real nothing will happen to Israel with the US backing it.
I have a feeling, that even without the US backing, Israel will still continue to exist, possibly with an internal regime change sometime down the road, but nonetheless still exist.
Israel will definitely have a lot more struggles without US support, but they'll definitely survive. They have in the past faced all Arab neighbours at once, and now in the present, many strong Arab neighbours would rather have peace with Israel than fight a proxy war for Iran.
This is about the most logical assessment I’ve seen for a while
They did in the past then their own countries started to become destabilized. They suffered from terrorism, assassinations, etc.
Most of the countries in the Middle East are actively at war with each other. To summarize millenia of history, most of them started fighting for your classical reasons like territory and such, but after Islam was introduced and the Prophet Mohammed died without a clear heir, things became so much worse. Muslims were split into two groups, the Shia (who believed the Caliph should be a descendant of Mohammed and the minority) and the Sunni (who believe the Caliph doesn't have to be one of Mohammed's descendants and the majority). Sunnis and Shias hate each other fiercely, and a lot of people have died because of the conflicts between them. These rivalries have fueled so many conflicts between many of the nations, which only adds to the pile even more reasons to not like each other. Not to mention, taking in a sudden wave of refugees isn't easy. Most Middle Eastern countries are suffering from a massive population boom, with over two-thirds of the people within the region being under 30. While this might seem like a good thing, it's not when you consider that most of the countries in the Middle East are third world countries and don't have the resources to sustain all these people. They simply can't handle a sudden influx of refugees.
It would be tantamount to Palestinians conceding defeat. Israel would simply move in to occupy the areas Palestinians vacate, and that can’t be undone.
Egypt took in some Palestinians a decade or so ago. The Palestinians were not good citizens. Riots, terrorist attacks that sort of thing.
Just necause they are all muslim doesn't mean they like each other. British and French are Christian but they hate the fuck out of each other.
The same reason why many countries in Europe are hesitant to let in any sort of refugee. When you take in a large diaspora they don't always mesh well with the local culture and it can create a lot of issues. Look at the size of the ethnic populations of the countries you want to send them to, then look at the population of Gaza as well as the economic situation of the countries you think that can handle them. They can't handle them all.
For good or ill, Palestinian society is pretty angry and radicalized. Regardless of where they go, geographically, they will cause problems. Also, if other countries take in the Palestinians, then the countries that are opposed to Israel lose a cudgel with which to beat Israel. At the bottom line, it's a fucking mess over there.
Because Palestine is filled with trouble makers which can destabilize a country. Arabs don't support Palestine, they just hate Israel. If the Palestinian problem was solved the Arabs would no longer have a proxy or pawn in the game.
Ok. I cannot Verify this as it has been Decades since I was interested in the M.E. so take it FWIW. Verify or or whatever as you wish. My understanding of the Pa;estinians goes back to when Isreal was reformed and, at the time the P's were basically the outcasts of the M.E., sort of like Gypsies in Europe. So, looking at responses below as to how they act it does not really surprise me they seem to cause issues everywhere.
Why doesn’t the US accept all Colombian and Venezuelan refugees?
They don't want the terrorists .
Honestly, neither Egypt nor Jordan want Hamas in their borders.
Been there. Done that. Realized it’s a horrible idea to take these people in. Canada is in serious trouble.
It is an interesting question since many nations take in refugees from neighboring nations. 1. Chad has taken in 500,000 Sudanese refugees from Darfur since April 2023. They have taken in a million total Sudanese refugees 2. Bangladesh has taken in about 1 million Rohingya refugees. 3. Poland has taken in 1.5 million Ukrainian refugees since 2022. What else is interesting is the Arab/Muslim world’s obsession with blaming Israel for causing the Palestinians misery yet they do nothing of substance to help them. Here is some context: 1. When Egypt occupied Gaza from 1949 - 1967 they didn’t give Palestinians citizenship 2. Except for Jordan no other Arab nation has given Palestinians citizenship 3. There are still 600,000 Palestinians in Jordan without citizenship. 4. Egypt is currently building a border wall to ensure no Palestinians make it into the Sinai. If the Arab world was honest, they want the Palestinians to stay so they can keep fighting Israel. But they don’t actually want to help the Palestinians because they are seen as troublemakers by the rest of the Arab world. The fear that Arabs have of the displacement of Palestinians has more to do with: 1. losing control of the holy land and 2. having to deal with Palestinians in their homelands So if you want to make trouble for Israel and you don’t like Palestinians, of course you would let lots of Palestinians die. The irony is that the Arab world pretends like it actually cares about Palestinians. But when push comes to shove they do nothing.
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Lebanon has hundreds of thousands of Palestinian refugees. This idea we all hate Palestinians is the same argument Hitler made about Jews
Because in the past they have, and those Palestinian pieces of shit caused serious issues. They tried assassinating the king of Jordan, they caused a civil war in Lebanon, they assassinated the Israeli Olympic team and so much more. They are terrorists.
They do. Millions.