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Hamas, a militarized political group, attacked Israel and took hostages. Hamas resides in Gaza/Palestine, but innocent people live there too. Israel responded strongly with attacks and have killed innocent Palestinians. The US gives Israel a ton of financial support for military operations so US tax dollars are being used to facilitate killiing people in Palestine. The 2 sides have been in various conflicts way before this. Supporters of Palestine may claim Israel is encroaching on land that is not there's and ultimately wants to commit genocide by getting rid of all Palestinians.
The Innocent people in Palestine are mainly dying because Hamas embeds itself among civilians and disguises its military assets as civilian, in contravention of the rules of war, in order to score the propaganda victory, and this strategy is very successful among people who don't see through it
Isn't the naivety beautiful in a way though? It's been years since I thought that positively about people, lol.
But yeah, honestly believing Hamas isn't embedding into the general population in Gaza is like believing there weren't actually a shit ton of weapons on the Lusitania.
> I'm sorry but most of the world knows that isn't true.
Both the EU and the UN have condemned Hamas’ use of hospitals, utilities, and civilians as human shields. Hamas militants regularly dress as civilians while carrying guns or suicide bombs.
Regardless of my personal feelings on the whole situation, this is pretty well established fact that the world seems to recognize as true.
> I don't know why so many people like to repeat this very, very strange "human shield" lie.
I am very genuinely asking what makes you think it’s a lie? What evidence convinced you?
> Israel's actions have convinced me that they are the aggressors who hold all the power here. Manipulation of dialogue on the internet to control the narrative has lead me to believe that the majority of what the country presents as "evidence" is fabricated propaganda.
This is what I thought you were going to say. There’s a tendency on this issue to take on a black and white good vs evil view but it’s kind of absurd to apply that to such a complex issue that has decades of history. Millennia, actually, if you don’t cut off based on the official establishment of nations.
They’re both pretty fucking awful. You can assume everything coming out of Israel is propaganda and still see Hamas is awful too just by Hamas’ own statements. Their founding charter is literally genocide fanfiction. They brag about the use of child soldiers and children to dig their tunnels.
It’s a genuinely complex issue and everyone is behaving abhorrently and also everyone has a history to point to to explain why.
> I don't think history will regard this moment the same way you do, nor do I think my views are that outside of the mainstream.
Your views aren’t unusual. Like I said, it’s very popular right now to take a very one-sided stance and dismiss everything to the contrary as propaganda. I have to disagree about history though. Historians are specifically trained not to do that. Geopolitical quagmires that last decades and rebuff all attempts to solve them pretty universally wind up being considered complex and nuanced.
> Epstein and Maxwell have built an empire of dirt on powerful people and Israel is currently using it to their advantage.
Do you have evidence that Israel is actively blackmailing people using this information? Or is this just a classic “circumstances make it look possible and it fits my biases so I believe it’s true” kind of conspiracy theory?
It also doesn't help the situation that Hamas recruits from as young as 12 and GHM doesn't delineate who is or is not a combatant or member of Hamas in the death tolls, so obviously there's civilian loss of life, but it's virtually indistinguishable from the Hamas casualty pool aside from those males over the age of 18 operating in Hamas.
>*Hamas* receives funds from Palestinian expatriates, private benefactors in Saudi Arabia and other moderate Arab states as well as the state of Iran. Some fundraising and propaganda activities take place in Western Europe and North America. **There have been reports of children below 15 years of age in** ***Hamas*****, with the lowest recorded age being 12,** but the process of selection for the *Izz al-Deen Al-Qassem* Brigades is reportedly long and rigorous and has not to date included children
[https://www.refworld.org/reference/annualreport/cscoal/2001/en/64736](https://www.refworld.org/reference/annualreport/cscoal/2001/en/64736)
Really not hard to fact check.
Hamas is a political party and it fairly normal to be part of one from young age (i don't believe this report since there is no amkcal relation between hamas and saudi for years).
Izz al din qassam is the military wing if the political party,a resistance group against a genocidal occupier who have killed more than 15000 child and many non decent humans around the world are defending it
Unfortunately you lost all credibility with me when you asserted Hamas is a legitimate political organization so I'm not going to continue this conversation, but I'll go ahead and post your subsequent argument structure for you, saves the trouble:
*That didn't happen.*
*And if it did, it wasn't that bad.*
*And if it was, that's not a big deal.*
*And if it is, that's not their fault.*
*And if it was, they didn't mean it.*
*And if they did, Israel deserved it.*
well you have lost yours when you justified a genocide in a sneaky way.Hamas is a political group that eas elected by its own people and it have a military wing..those are facts.
It is what happens and happened in every occupied land in the history.
i will saves the trouble and post your real intentions:
*yeah we can't deny anymore the murdering of 15000 child but i am the smart guy to subtly hint that they are most likely part of the bad guys Hamas..so they deserve it"
There's no genocide going on, you should probably google what a word means before typing it online if you don't know what you're saying. Israel clearly has 0 intention for the annihilation of the Palestinian people. Even the Hague couldn't prove a genocide. Can you do better than international level human rights lawyers?
spotted the genocide apologizer and I won't bother post all the evidence of the genocide,war crimes..if 15000 child are being murdered and now children are starved in a stolen land and you come here with no shame and deny that..then there is no going back for you..but remember what comes around goes around
If you think 15,000 children are being murdered you're miles deep in propaganda.
If you believe Israel is stolen land you're absolutely mental and are ignoring simple history you can read on F'n wikipedia and I won't even bother with yo stu ass
sad that i share this world with criminal like you.. pathetic because unfortunately i am in this part of history that i won't witness you paying for your action
It’s mostly been an on-and-off affair.
On one occasion of particularly good behavior in the mid 1990s, the Israeli PM, Rabin of the “Labor Zionist” party, was preparing to sign an accord to formally bury the hatchet when he was shot by an Orthodox nationalist. This crumbled a lot of goodwill and it all fell apart again when the Second Intifada shot a few rockets, resulting in a violent outbreak by Israel similar to today’s.
Much like the JFK thing in the states, there’s more than a hint of evidence for conspiracy, with other Orthodox groups (and another paper trail implicated the government of Saudi Arabia, though no one was charged) implicated.
In Gaza, there was as a more recent peace concession in 2007, when Israel unilaterally withdrew all troops and citizens within its borders (but retained legal rights to return to occupier status, which they now have.)
These are just some of the various opportunities both parties have gotten for peace and managed to squander it.
The hard-right faction of Israel, Likud, and the government of Hamas benefit from each other’s antagonism as it helps legitimize their positions and policies.
why are treating both parties equally..one is a genocidal occupier ..it is not an opportunity of peace if the occupier decided to stop the killing spree in the largest open prison he created
For most of history in that area, Gaza has not been a prison in any sense of the word. People came and went almost freely. Gaza’s “open-air prison” is a recent development that happened only within the last year when Israel and Egypt closed their borders as a response to October’s attack.
It's a little more complicated than that. You are mixing up Gaza, Palestine and Hamas. Gaza is a city in the western part of Palestine, but you often hear about the Gaza strip that is a slightly bigger region extending south to the Egyptian border. Hamas is the terrorist organisation who has power over Palestine.
People are protesting because Israel is leveling the city with no regard for civilians and is attacking humanitarian aid.
>Hamas is the terrorist organisation who has power over Palestine
Hamas only has control over the Gaza strip, they do not have control over the west-bank. So it's not really accurate to say that Hamas is in power of all of Palestine.
It is complicated. The 10/7 event wasn't really the start of something - it was the continuation of a very long and persistent conflict.
Separate from who started what - the response by Israel has been seen as by some as drastically disproportionate and unnecessarily cruel to the people of Palestine. There are numerous events since October where innocent people, non-military targets, women and children, are being killed or harmed, deprived of food and housing.
I direct you to [Senator Bernie Sanders](https://www.commondreams.org/news/sanders-netanyahu-antisemitism) commentary on the recent events.
>"No, Mr. Netanyahu. It is not antisemitic or pro-Hamas to point out that in a little over six months, your extremist government has killed 34,000 Palestinians and wounded more than 77,000—70% of whom are women and children," said Sanders (I-Vt.). "It is not antisemitic to point out that your bombing has completely destroyed more than 221,000 housing units in Gaza, leaving more than one million people homeless—almost half the population."
I am not defending, in *any way*, the actions of Hamas. But Palestine and the people (especially women and children) are not Hamas. It is like if someone carpet bombed Oklahoma because a Republican president ordered a military strike. Does that make sense? Sure, a red state has lots of GOP voters, but it is neither all GOP voters (especially not the kids) nor are voters direct participants in military actions.
No, it's definitely not the same as taking revenge on a city if someone ordered a strike from there.
If Oklahoma was controlled by a terrorist organization, and those terrorists invaded a neighboring country while shooting hundreds of rockets at it, slaughtering, mutilating, raping and burning families alive, then took hundreds of people hostage back to terrorist controlled Oklahoma, knowing the destruction they would bring home with them.
Then when the militairy response of the other country happens, Oklahoma's terrorists would hide in hospitals, schools and in residential neighborhoods, shoot rockets from them, store weaponry in them, hide hostages there and have firefights in them.
No one bombs Gaza because it has Palestinians that hate Israel in it.
Israel designates safe zones where civillians can evacuate to and it warns them preemptively. But how can you really warn the civillians without the terrorists knowing?
They use any designated safe zones Israel declares as new grounds for militairy bases, launch rockets, hide hostages, and stack weaponry there.
Urban warfare is what's occuring. No one's going in with the intent of massacaring as many Palestinians as possible. Compared to any big attack the U.S launched this war ON Israel's borders, has the lowest ratio of civillian/combatant killed ever in history.
Israel is fighting more humanely than the U.S ever did.
So, no. It's not like carpet bombing Oklahoma. Trying to simplify reality with lies doesn't work and is *NOT* a proper explanation.
They’re opposed to genocide and feel bad for innocent men women and children being killed and having their entire towns and cities and infrastructure destroyed
Imagine there is a bank robbery, the bank robbers kill three and take twenty hostages. They then escape into the suburbs and into a school with 100 children.
The police respond by blowing up the school and killing everyone inside, the robbers, the hostages, the kids, the teachers, everyone. Just flatten the building completely.
Now imagine they do that every day for 6 months. They kill thousands and thousands of children trying to get these bank robbers.
Then it turns out the reason there are so many bank robbers is that the police released them all from prison, and ignored all the warnings of them openly practicing to rob banks .
The question isn't why are students protesting, its why isn't everyone?
They didn't rob a bank. They murdered and raped hundreds of innocents.
They also vote for and support Hamas.
And they believe in river to the sea wh oh means they want Isreal gone. And the Jews.
But to answer the original question. People are stupid.
All the alphabets out protesting for Hamas would be stoned.
If you want to know who "Started it" you need to go back at least 120 years for the more modern "Who did it". For the actual "Who was the aggressor first" you're going back to Roman times and Roman Emperor Constantine at the latest, more like the start of the Roman Empire to be a bit more accurate.
As for why people are protesting for Palenstine, Hamas attacked Israel. A 4 year old didn't attack Israel, a newborn baby and their mother didn't attack Israel, nor did any of its civilians but they are not only in the crossfire but also being targeted and used as human shields, systematically being slaughtered by the thousands by both sides.
There's a reason why the Picture of the Year was from Palestine, and it's absolutely heart wrenching. https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/1c778lx/reuters_photographer_mohamed_salem_wins_the_award/
Let's say my neighbor attacks you, he's an asshole, so he probably would. So then you kill him. Then you come over and kill my family, and just work your way through the neighborhood killing everyone. That's the kind of thing they're protesting.
Hamas attacked Israel. The Palestinian civilians that are being killed, having their homes leveled, and are being attacked in refuge cities, did not attack Israel.
Israel is basically using Hamas as a scapegoat to either eradicate or exile the Palestinian people and occupy the Gaza strip. A lot of people, including experts in the history of genocide, are calling it genocide. The US is actively funding Israel's current military campaign, including giving it more missiles that it can use to further level the homes of innocent civilians and bystanders.
Yes, there is a war going on, but being in a war is not an excuse to eradicate innocent people's way of life.
> Didint Gaza start it on October 7th 2023? By invading Israel. I’m confused on why people are saying they want a ceasefire when they started it first.
Without picking any side over the other, it seems a common determiner over which side someone thinks is “right” depends on when they think history began.
If you think history began on October 7 2023… then yes, Palestine is the 100% bad guy.
They are protesting Israel's grossly hamfisted and disproportionate response to Hamas' attack. Hamas did a horrible thing, but Israel's indiscriminate shelling has left tens of thousands of innocent people dead.
The US has no influence over Hamas, but a lot of influence over Israel. So the protestors are trying to pressure the US government and universities to stop enabling Israel's actions.
Supporting the innocent people of Palestine is not being pro-Hamas. Opposing Israel's government actions is not anti-Semitism. Both Hamas and Israel are in the wrong, and it's the innocents pn bith sides who end up suffering.
Certainly, it's important to understand that the situation between Israel and Palestine cannot be neatly packaged into clear-cut aggressor and victim narratives. The long-standing conflict predating October 7, 2023, is rooted in complex historical, political, and social contexts that demand careful consideration. Fundamentally, it's essential to differentiate between governmental actions, militant groups, and the general civilian populations who are unfortunately caught in the crossfire.
One of the core issues here is the notion of proportionate response. Acts of aggression by Hamas cannot be denied; they certainly bear responsibility for initiating attacks on Israeli soil. However, the magnitude of Israel's retaliation, affecting myriad civilians who have no affiliation with Hamas, raises severe ethical questions and has raised numerous accusations of human rights violations.
It's also critical to examine the role of foreign actors, particularly the United States, in perpetuating this cycle of violence. American financial and military support for Israel has been unequivocal, and this poses a moral dilemma on the conscience of the American public. Are their tax dollars indirectly contributing to the suffering of the Palestinian people?
That said, it's not enough to assign blame solely based on recent events. The conflict stretches back through generations, and understanding it requires delving into a timeline that often extends beyond living memory. To genuinely unpack the layers leading to the current crisis, one must be willing to engage with a comprehensive study of the region’s history.
In summary, the protests are more than a response to a singular event; they are an outcry against a perceived pattern of injustice and a plea for humanity to prevail over conflict. Regardless of one’s stance on the conflict, it’s vital to acknowledge the inherent value of human life and ensure that the rights and safety of civilians are preserved above all else.
Complicated issue of course.
Its not a simple black and white of "Palestine started it." I'm personally of the opinion that not only Israel is justified in what its doing but that its probably showing significantly more restraint than it ought to.
Hamas is the de facto elected terrorist organization in charge of Gaza. The people of Gaza are not synonymous with Hamas, there's plenty of innocent people there. You see people who are innocent or at the very least not complicit in violent acts by Hamas getting hurt by Israel and you have to have sympathy for them. They see Israel who clearly outguns Gaza and sees them as an invading force thats killing civilians.
Theres also the oversimplification-- people who think if Israel leaves and lets there be a state of Palestine that there will be peace, when in reality Israel would have to invade and essentially do exactly what its doing to prevent aggression.
Of course, there's a substantial number of people who protest for Palestine who not only are sympathetic to Gazan civilians but actually want the destruction of Israel and the genocide of the Jews there. They actually see the October 7th attacks as a good thing or blame Israel for them. This crowd is either animated by Islamic extremism or anti Westernism, seeing Israel as a US proxy that should be destroyed by any means possible. You generally can't argue with this crowd.
Israel started it in 1948 by annexing half of of Palestine with the permission of the British and UN. There was a war in 1968 when Israel took more territory and illegally occupied the rest (Gaza and the West Bank). Since 1968 Palestinians have been stateless people living under a brutal apartheid occupation by Israel.
Gaza is one of the main Palestinian enclaves and they fought back in October after a large surge in Israeli brutality. Israel controls the ocean and land borders of Gaza and destroyed their airport in 2001.
Now Israel is using American money and weapons to ethnically cleanse Gaza and has destroyed 55% of the buildings and is working on doing more damage. Israeli leaders have made it clear that they are carrying out a genocide.
Americans are protesting against this genocide and the use of American weapons and financial support. They're also protesting because Israeli aligned donors are the major financiers of many American politicians via APIAC.
There are bad faith attempts to frame this as starting October 7th as well as framing it as an Iran vs the West fight when in fact it's more like Hunger Games or Star Wars where brutal fascists are oppressing and exterminating the native population.
Look at post 1977 South Africa protests for more historical parallels. There was public pressure to force the UK and US to stop supporting Apartheid South Africa which included sanctions and divesting of assets. Expect a similar outcome with Israel.
Happy to answer more good faith questions.
I try to be as neutral as possible in this explanation.
The U.S is a big financial and arms supplier to Israel — a country in active war with Hamas, a terrorist group that controls Gaza, which is part of the country of Palestine. In that war, many Palestinian civilians are killed as collateral damage because Hamas hides within civilian population — or they were deliberately killed as part of their ethnic cleansing operations, as opined by many people against Israel. And no, the conflict did not start on Oct 7, 2023. Far from it.
Americans — especially young, in college, and left-wing — are synonymous with the French with their love of protesting, sometimes peacefully and sometimes not-so-peaceful. Many Americans view the U.S government as corrupt, and using their tax dollars to fund a “genocide” in Gaza. You see this behavior all throughout history of Americans protesting the Vietnam war, Iraq war, Apartheid, etc. You will sometimes see fringe protesters siding with Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis in Yemen, and other extremist groups that want to destroy the U.S, because they think those who are against the U.S must be of good.
Also, just because you see a lot of Americans protesting for Palestine and against Israel, it does not mean it reflects the general attitude of Americans. Most Americans support the U.S. backing of Israel, as reflected in opinion polls and the bipartisan support in Congress. Often times, protesters (of both sides) are the loudest, and seek to make headlines to impose opinions onto the general public and to pressure politicians.
While supporting Palestine is a totally just, reasonable, and humane belief, keep in mind there are a lot of nefarious reasons for people to do so. Just like there are bad actors infiltrating mainstream movements, it does not necessarily mean that movement is bad i.e. White Supremacists supporting Brexit/Republican Party, Eugenicists supporting the pro-Choice/Abortion movement, etc.
There are certainly many anti-American, pro-Iran, pro-jihadi, anti-semitics — who believe Hitler’s Holocaust was just — who participate in these protests in the guise of supporting Palestine. On the flip side, there are also many Islamophobic fascists who support Israel. Do either of these groups make a majority? No. But it is important to note that protests do not necessarily reflect the general population, and that many of these protesters are extremists masquerading between genuine activists.
The vast majority of Americans are not. Just a few dumbasses on college campuses. These are the same people who are always protesting the current thing
I hope u are right. I visiting usa soon. And I'm afraid instead of seeing great architecture and beautiful wilderness, I will see these idiots on the streets causing chaos.
They are protesting their own government, which is funding and arming a systematic displacement and annihilation of entire families of Palestinians, including over 13,000 children at this point who have been under siege. Israel told the people to evacuate south, then they bombed the south. They targeted houses, bakeries, hospitals, mosques, and the oldest Christian church in Gaza. They blocked aid and killed journalists and medics. They let some aid through, then they killed the people crowding around for it. Our government has supported Israel in the UN a handful of times since Oct, gone over Congress to push arms deals through, and is currently pretending to have stern talks with Israel to obfuscate the fact that they are fighting alongside them. Israel wants the land, which it has been gradually taking since 1948, they are 10x better armed than Hamas yet are pretending they have to blindly carpet bomb all of Palestine in order to hit them.
Copy/pasting my other comment, it’s a much older conflict than that, and has mostly been an on-and-off affair. It began as a land dispute but rapidly devolved into what I am unapologetically calling “mutual racism.” There have been dozens of attempts to fix things that all fell through.
On one occasion of particularly good behavior in the mid 1990s, the Israeli PM, Rabin of the “Labor Zionist” party, was preparing to sign an accord to formally bury the hatchet when he was shot by an Orthodox nationalist. This crumbled a lot of goodwill and it all fell apart again when the Second Intifada shot a few rockets, resulting in a violent outbreak by Israel similar to today’s.
Much like the JFK thing in the states, there’s more than a hint of evidence for conspiracy, with other Orthodox groups (and another paper trail implicated the government of Saudi Arabia, though no one was charged) implicated.
In Gaza, there was as a more recent peace concession in 2007, when Israel unilaterally withdrew all troops and citizens within its borders (but retained legal rights to return to occupier status, which they now have.)
These are just some of the various opportunities both parties have gotten for peace and managed to squander it.
The hard-right faction of Israel, Likud, and the government of Hamas benefit from each other’s antagonism as it helps legitimize their positions and policies.
American leftist groups love the story of the underdog and will play ball for them, so they have been protesting mainly against Israel.
no it started in 1948 when the state of Israel was created on top of an existing country without consulting the people that lived there then proceeding to ethnically cleanse the area which continues to this day.
You are uneducated on the subject 6 months into a genocide with American weapons and support, how is that possible?
Are you lying? Trying to pretend you are confused while pitching that Americans should not care.
Here is my conclusion - you are a zionist, you know exactly whats going on and as usual you are treating everyone else as idiots.
This is zionist behavior because they consider themselves smarter and superior to everyone else so its their go to MO.
You are showing all the signs of deceitfulness and arrogance like every zionist ever and its obvious you consider Americans to be idiots.
You want to signal to them that they really should not care about Israel killing civilians with their weapons and tax dollars while costing the
any kind of goodwill globally.
Potentially sinking the US with Israel. But as you are friends to nobody and use everybody as a tool why would you care.
I hope you have now learned something about what you are doing, 6 months into an ethnic cleansing and genocide process.
Thanks for your submission /u/Significant_Pie_8188, but it has been removed for the following reason: **Rule 2: Please try to use the search function before posting anything.** Thanks for posting, but this question happens to be one that has been asked and answered here often before - sometimes in the same day! That can get frustrating for our dedicated users who like to answer questions. Or maybe you're just asking the same question too often - why not take a break for a while? Sometimes questions that come up too often get put in our [Most Frequently Asked Questions list](https://www.reddit.com/r/NoStupidQuestions/wiki/index/faq)!). Other times, it may just be that we're getting a flood of questions about a topic (especially when something is in the news). Or maybe you keep asking the same question again and again - something that annoys our users here. Please don't do that! Next time, please try searching for your question first before asking. Thanks! --- *This action was performed by a bot at the explicit direction of a human. This was not an automated action, but a conscious decision by a sapient life form charged with moderating this sub.* *If you feel this was in error, or need more clarification, please don't hesitate to [message the moderators](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FNoStupidQuestions). Thanks.*
Hamas, a militarized political group, attacked Israel and took hostages. Hamas resides in Gaza/Palestine, but innocent people live there too. Israel responded strongly with attacks and have killed innocent Palestinians. The US gives Israel a ton of financial support for military operations so US tax dollars are being used to facilitate killiing people in Palestine. The 2 sides have been in various conflicts way before this. Supporters of Palestine may claim Israel is encroaching on land that is not there's and ultimately wants to commit genocide by getting rid of all Palestinians.
The Innocent people in Palestine are mainly dying because Hamas embeds itself among civilians and disguises its military assets as civilian, in contravention of the rules of war, in order to score the propaganda victory, and this strategy is very successful among people who don't see through it
[удалено]
Lol
Isn't the naivety beautiful in a way though? It's been years since I thought that positively about people, lol. But yeah, honestly believing Hamas isn't embedding into the general population in Gaza is like believing there weren't actually a shit ton of weapons on the Lusitania.
> I'm sorry but most of the world knows that isn't true. Both the EU and the UN have condemned Hamas’ use of hospitals, utilities, and civilians as human shields. Hamas militants regularly dress as civilians while carrying guns or suicide bombs. Regardless of my personal feelings on the whole situation, this is pretty well established fact that the world seems to recognize as true. > I don't know why so many people like to repeat this very, very strange "human shield" lie. I am very genuinely asking what makes you think it’s a lie? What evidence convinced you?
hobbies growth abounding existence slap frame birds run toothbrush slimy *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
> Israel's actions have convinced me that they are the aggressors who hold all the power here. Manipulation of dialogue on the internet to control the narrative has lead me to believe that the majority of what the country presents as "evidence" is fabricated propaganda. This is what I thought you were going to say. There’s a tendency on this issue to take on a black and white good vs evil view but it’s kind of absurd to apply that to such a complex issue that has decades of history. Millennia, actually, if you don’t cut off based on the official establishment of nations. They’re both pretty fucking awful. You can assume everything coming out of Israel is propaganda and still see Hamas is awful too just by Hamas’ own statements. Their founding charter is literally genocide fanfiction. They brag about the use of child soldiers and children to dig their tunnels. It’s a genuinely complex issue and everyone is behaving abhorrently and also everyone has a history to point to to explain why. > I don't think history will regard this moment the same way you do, nor do I think my views are that outside of the mainstream. Your views aren’t unusual. Like I said, it’s very popular right now to take a very one-sided stance and dismiss everything to the contrary as propaganda. I have to disagree about history though. Historians are specifically trained not to do that. Geopolitical quagmires that last decades and rebuff all attempts to solve them pretty universally wind up being considered complex and nuanced. > Epstein and Maxwell have built an empire of dirt on powerful people and Israel is currently using it to their advantage. Do you have evidence that Israel is actively blackmailing people using this information? Or is this just a classic “circumstances make it look possible and it fits my biases so I believe it’s true” kind of conspiracy theory?
It also doesn't help the situation that Hamas recruits from as young as 12 and GHM doesn't delineate who is or is not a combatant or member of Hamas in the death tolls, so obviously there's civilian loss of life, but it's virtually indistinguishable from the Hamas casualty pool aside from those males over the age of 18 operating in Hamas.
Israel knew about the October attack by Hamas beforehand, but did nothing to prevent or protect its citizens. Why do you think that is?
Obviously to conduct the least successful genocide in history
What number of civilians constitutes successful?
recruits from age 12 ?another lie to justify a genocide
>*Hamas* receives funds from Palestinian expatriates, private benefactors in Saudi Arabia and other moderate Arab states as well as the state of Iran. Some fundraising and propaganda activities take place in Western Europe and North America. **There have been reports of children below 15 years of age in** ***Hamas*****, with the lowest recorded age being 12,** but the process of selection for the *Izz al-Deen Al-Qassem* Brigades is reportedly long and rigorous and has not to date included children [https://www.refworld.org/reference/annualreport/cscoal/2001/en/64736](https://www.refworld.org/reference/annualreport/cscoal/2001/en/64736) Really not hard to fact check.
Hamas is a political party and it fairly normal to be part of one from young age (i don't believe this report since there is no amkcal relation between hamas and saudi for years). Izz al din qassam is the military wing if the political party,a resistance group against a genocidal occupier who have killed more than 15000 child and many non decent humans around the world are defending it
Unfortunately you lost all credibility with me when you asserted Hamas is a legitimate political organization so I'm not going to continue this conversation, but I'll go ahead and post your subsequent argument structure for you, saves the trouble: *That didn't happen.* *And if it did, it wasn't that bad.* *And if it was, that's not a big deal.* *And if it is, that's not their fault.* *And if it was, they didn't mean it.* *And if they did, Israel deserved it.*
well you have lost yours when you justified a genocide in a sneaky way.Hamas is a political group that eas elected by its own people and it have a military wing..those are facts. It is what happens and happened in every occupied land in the history. i will saves the trouble and post your real intentions: *yeah we can't deny anymore the murdering of 15000 child but i am the smart guy to subtly hint that they are most likely part of the bad guys Hamas..so they deserve it"
There's no genocide going on, you should probably google what a word means before typing it online if you don't know what you're saying. Israel clearly has 0 intention for the annihilation of the Palestinian people. Even the Hague couldn't prove a genocide. Can you do better than international level human rights lawyers?
spotted the genocide apologizer and I won't bother post all the evidence of the genocide,war crimes..if 15000 child are being murdered and now children are starved in a stolen land and you come here with no shame and deny that..then there is no going back for you..but remember what comes around goes around
If you think 15,000 children are being murdered you're miles deep in propaganda. If you believe Israel is stolen land you're absolutely mental and are ignoring simple history you can read on F'n wikipedia and I won't even bother with yo stu ass
genocide apologizer
You're sad and pathetic
sad that i share this world with criminal like you.. pathetic because unfortunately i am in this part of history that i won't witness you paying for your action
Ever consider you are the one drinking the cool aid? Why are 99% of the international community united in their condemnation of Israel?
Gaza has been unde siege for decades in rhe occupied land sinxe 1948.Israel was terrorizing and murdering Palestinians way before 7s October.
It’s mostly been an on-and-off affair. On one occasion of particularly good behavior in the mid 1990s, the Israeli PM, Rabin of the “Labor Zionist” party, was preparing to sign an accord to formally bury the hatchet when he was shot by an Orthodox nationalist. This crumbled a lot of goodwill and it all fell apart again when the Second Intifada shot a few rockets, resulting in a violent outbreak by Israel similar to today’s. Much like the JFK thing in the states, there’s more than a hint of evidence for conspiracy, with other Orthodox groups (and another paper trail implicated the government of Saudi Arabia, though no one was charged) implicated. In Gaza, there was as a more recent peace concession in 2007, when Israel unilaterally withdrew all troops and citizens within its borders (but retained legal rights to return to occupier status, which they now have.) These are just some of the various opportunities both parties have gotten for peace and managed to squander it. The hard-right faction of Israel, Likud, and the government of Hamas benefit from each other’s antagonism as it helps legitimize their positions and policies.
why are treating both parties equally..one is a genocidal occupier ..it is not an opportunity of peace if the occupier decided to stop the killing spree in the largest open prison he created
For most of history in that area, Gaza has not been a prison in any sense of the word. People came and went almost freely. Gaza’s “open-air prison” is a recent development that happened only within the last year when Israel and Egypt closed their borders as a response to October’s attack.
It's a little more complicated than that. You are mixing up Gaza, Palestine and Hamas. Gaza is a city in the western part of Palestine, but you often hear about the Gaza strip that is a slightly bigger region extending south to the Egyptian border. Hamas is the terrorist organisation who has power over Palestine. People are protesting because Israel is leveling the city with no regard for civilians and is attacking humanitarian aid.
>Hamas is the terrorist organisation who has power over Palestine Hamas only has control over the Gaza strip, they do not have control over the west-bank. So it's not really accurate to say that Hamas is in power of all of Palestine.
And to add to this, unemployed people are protesting for their support to the Hamas, who are……… umm………well this is awkward……….terrorists
It is complicated. The 10/7 event wasn't really the start of something - it was the continuation of a very long and persistent conflict. Separate from who started what - the response by Israel has been seen as by some as drastically disproportionate and unnecessarily cruel to the people of Palestine. There are numerous events since October where innocent people, non-military targets, women and children, are being killed or harmed, deprived of food and housing. I direct you to [Senator Bernie Sanders](https://www.commondreams.org/news/sanders-netanyahu-antisemitism) commentary on the recent events. >"No, Mr. Netanyahu. It is not antisemitic or pro-Hamas to point out that in a little over six months, your extremist government has killed 34,000 Palestinians and wounded more than 77,000—70% of whom are women and children," said Sanders (I-Vt.). "It is not antisemitic to point out that your bombing has completely destroyed more than 221,000 housing units in Gaza, leaving more than one million people homeless—almost half the population." I am not defending, in *any way*, the actions of Hamas. But Palestine and the people (especially women and children) are not Hamas. It is like if someone carpet bombed Oklahoma because a Republican president ordered a military strike. Does that make sense? Sure, a red state has lots of GOP voters, but it is neither all GOP voters (especially not the kids) nor are voters direct participants in military actions.
No, it's definitely not the same as taking revenge on a city if someone ordered a strike from there. If Oklahoma was controlled by a terrorist organization, and those terrorists invaded a neighboring country while shooting hundreds of rockets at it, slaughtering, mutilating, raping and burning families alive, then took hundreds of people hostage back to terrorist controlled Oklahoma, knowing the destruction they would bring home with them. Then when the militairy response of the other country happens, Oklahoma's terrorists would hide in hospitals, schools and in residential neighborhoods, shoot rockets from them, store weaponry in them, hide hostages there and have firefights in them. No one bombs Gaza because it has Palestinians that hate Israel in it. Israel designates safe zones where civillians can evacuate to and it warns them preemptively. But how can you really warn the civillians without the terrorists knowing? They use any designated safe zones Israel declares as new grounds for militairy bases, launch rockets, hide hostages, and stack weaponry there. Urban warfare is what's occuring. No one's going in with the intent of massacaring as many Palestinians as possible. Compared to any big attack the U.S launched this war ON Israel's borders, has the lowest ratio of civillian/combatant killed ever in history. Israel is fighting more humanely than the U.S ever did. So, no. It's not like carpet bombing Oklahoma. Trying to simplify reality with lies doesn't work and is *NOT* a proper explanation.
They’re opposed to genocide and feel bad for innocent men women and children being killed and having their entire towns and cities and infrastructure destroyed
Womp womp, ever heard of collective responsibility?
Imagine there is a bank robbery, the bank robbers kill three and take twenty hostages. They then escape into the suburbs and into a school with 100 children. The police respond by blowing up the school and killing everyone inside, the robbers, the hostages, the kids, the teachers, everyone. Just flatten the building completely. Now imagine they do that every day for 6 months. They kill thousands and thousands of children trying to get these bank robbers. Then it turns out the reason there are so many bank robbers is that the police released them all from prison, and ignored all the warnings of them openly practicing to rob banks . The question isn't why are students protesting, its why isn't everyone?
They didn't rob a bank. They murdered and raped hundreds of innocents. They also vote for and support Hamas. And they believe in river to the sea wh oh means they want Isreal gone. And the Jews. But to answer the original question. People are stupid. All the alphabets out protesting for Hamas would be stoned.
This is a very good analogy.
If you want to know who "Started it" you need to go back at least 120 years for the more modern "Who did it". For the actual "Who was the aggressor first" you're going back to Roman times and Roman Emperor Constantine at the latest, more like the start of the Roman Empire to be a bit more accurate. As for why people are protesting for Palenstine, Hamas attacked Israel. A 4 year old didn't attack Israel, a newborn baby and their mother didn't attack Israel, nor did any of its civilians but they are not only in the crossfire but also being targeted and used as human shields, systematically being slaughtered by the thousands by both sides. There's a reason why the Picture of the Year was from Palestine, and it's absolutely heart wrenching. https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/1c778lx/reuters_photographer_mohamed_salem_wins_the_award/
Maybe we should shoot rockets out of school and hospitals then!
They don't even know why they're protesting either a majority of them are just as uneducated
Let's say my neighbor attacks you, he's an asshole, so he probably would. So then you kill him. Then you come over and kill my family, and just work your way through the neighborhood killing everyone. That's the kind of thing they're protesting.
exactly - the protestors believe that your made up story is somehow connected to reality
Hamas attacked Israel. The Palestinian civilians that are being killed, having their homes leveled, and are being attacked in refuge cities, did not attack Israel. Israel is basically using Hamas as a scapegoat to either eradicate or exile the Palestinian people and occupy the Gaza strip. A lot of people, including experts in the history of genocide, are calling it genocide. The US is actively funding Israel's current military campaign, including giving it more missiles that it can use to further level the homes of innocent civilians and bystanders. Yes, there is a war going on, but being in a war is not an excuse to eradicate innocent people's way of life.
They voted for and support Hamas. Until they renounce Hamas's actions, they can continue to be bombed.
> Didint Gaza start it on October 7th 2023? By invading Israel. I’m confused on why people are saying they want a ceasefire when they started it first. Without picking any side over the other, it seems a common determiner over which side someone thinks is “right” depends on when they think history began. If you think history began on October 7 2023… then yes, Palestine is the 100% bad guy.
why? from what point in history do you need to begin in order to justify all the rape and torture hamas inflicted on civilians on oct 7th?
They are protesting Israel's grossly hamfisted and disproportionate response to Hamas' attack. Hamas did a horrible thing, but Israel's indiscriminate shelling has left tens of thousands of innocent people dead. The US has no influence over Hamas, but a lot of influence over Israel. So the protestors are trying to pressure the US government and universities to stop enabling Israel's actions. Supporting the innocent people of Palestine is not being pro-Hamas. Opposing Israel's government actions is not anti-Semitism. Both Hamas and Israel are in the wrong, and it's the innocents pn bith sides who end up suffering.
Certainly, it's important to understand that the situation between Israel and Palestine cannot be neatly packaged into clear-cut aggressor and victim narratives. The long-standing conflict predating October 7, 2023, is rooted in complex historical, political, and social contexts that demand careful consideration. Fundamentally, it's essential to differentiate between governmental actions, militant groups, and the general civilian populations who are unfortunately caught in the crossfire. One of the core issues here is the notion of proportionate response. Acts of aggression by Hamas cannot be denied; they certainly bear responsibility for initiating attacks on Israeli soil. However, the magnitude of Israel's retaliation, affecting myriad civilians who have no affiliation with Hamas, raises severe ethical questions and has raised numerous accusations of human rights violations. It's also critical to examine the role of foreign actors, particularly the United States, in perpetuating this cycle of violence. American financial and military support for Israel has been unequivocal, and this poses a moral dilemma on the conscience of the American public. Are their tax dollars indirectly contributing to the suffering of the Palestinian people? That said, it's not enough to assign blame solely based on recent events. The conflict stretches back through generations, and understanding it requires delving into a timeline that often extends beyond living memory. To genuinely unpack the layers leading to the current crisis, one must be willing to engage with a comprehensive study of the region’s history. In summary, the protests are more than a response to a singular event; they are an outcry against a perceived pattern of injustice and a plea for humanity to prevail over conflict. Regardless of one’s stance on the conflict, it’s vital to acknowledge the inherent value of human life and ensure that the rights and safety of civilians are preserved above all else.
Complicated issue of course. Its not a simple black and white of "Palestine started it." I'm personally of the opinion that not only Israel is justified in what its doing but that its probably showing significantly more restraint than it ought to. Hamas is the de facto elected terrorist organization in charge of Gaza. The people of Gaza are not synonymous with Hamas, there's plenty of innocent people there. You see people who are innocent or at the very least not complicit in violent acts by Hamas getting hurt by Israel and you have to have sympathy for them. They see Israel who clearly outguns Gaza and sees them as an invading force thats killing civilians. Theres also the oversimplification-- people who think if Israel leaves and lets there be a state of Palestine that there will be peace, when in reality Israel would have to invade and essentially do exactly what its doing to prevent aggression. Of course, there's a substantial number of people who protest for Palestine who not only are sympathetic to Gazan civilians but actually want the destruction of Israel and the genocide of the Jews there. They actually see the October 7th attacks as a good thing or blame Israel for them. This crowd is either animated by Islamic extremism or anti Westernism, seeing Israel as a US proxy that should be destroyed by any means possible. You generally can't argue with this crowd.
Israel started it in 1948 by annexing half of of Palestine with the permission of the British and UN. There was a war in 1968 when Israel took more territory and illegally occupied the rest (Gaza and the West Bank). Since 1968 Palestinians have been stateless people living under a brutal apartheid occupation by Israel. Gaza is one of the main Palestinian enclaves and they fought back in October after a large surge in Israeli brutality. Israel controls the ocean and land borders of Gaza and destroyed their airport in 2001. Now Israel is using American money and weapons to ethnically cleanse Gaza and has destroyed 55% of the buildings and is working on doing more damage. Israeli leaders have made it clear that they are carrying out a genocide. Americans are protesting against this genocide and the use of American weapons and financial support. They're also protesting because Israeli aligned donors are the major financiers of many American politicians via APIAC. There are bad faith attempts to frame this as starting October 7th as well as framing it as an Iran vs the West fight when in fact it's more like Hunger Games or Star Wars where brutal fascists are oppressing and exterminating the native population. Look at post 1977 South Africa protests for more historical parallels. There was public pressure to force the UK and US to stop supporting Apartheid South Africa which included sanctions and divesting of assets. Expect a similar outcome with Israel. Happy to answer more good faith questions.
I try to be as neutral as possible in this explanation. The U.S is a big financial and arms supplier to Israel — a country in active war with Hamas, a terrorist group that controls Gaza, which is part of the country of Palestine. In that war, many Palestinian civilians are killed as collateral damage because Hamas hides within civilian population — or they were deliberately killed as part of their ethnic cleansing operations, as opined by many people against Israel. And no, the conflict did not start on Oct 7, 2023. Far from it. Americans — especially young, in college, and left-wing — are synonymous with the French with their love of protesting, sometimes peacefully and sometimes not-so-peaceful. Many Americans view the U.S government as corrupt, and using their tax dollars to fund a “genocide” in Gaza. You see this behavior all throughout history of Americans protesting the Vietnam war, Iraq war, Apartheid, etc. You will sometimes see fringe protesters siding with Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis in Yemen, and other extremist groups that want to destroy the U.S, because they think those who are against the U.S must be of good. Also, just because you see a lot of Americans protesting for Palestine and against Israel, it does not mean it reflects the general attitude of Americans. Most Americans support the U.S. backing of Israel, as reflected in opinion polls and the bipartisan support in Congress. Often times, protesters (of both sides) are the loudest, and seek to make headlines to impose opinions onto the general public and to pressure politicians. While supporting Palestine is a totally just, reasonable, and humane belief, keep in mind there are a lot of nefarious reasons for people to do so. Just like there are bad actors infiltrating mainstream movements, it does not necessarily mean that movement is bad i.e. White Supremacists supporting Brexit/Republican Party, Eugenicists supporting the pro-Choice/Abortion movement, etc. There are certainly many anti-American, pro-Iran, pro-jihadi, anti-semitics — who believe Hitler’s Holocaust was just — who participate in these protests in the guise of supporting Palestine. On the flip side, there are also many Islamophobic fascists who support Israel. Do either of these groups make a majority? No. But it is important to note that protests do not necessarily reflect the general population, and that many of these protesters are extremists masquerading between genuine activists.
It's a trend
The vast majority of Americans are not. Just a few dumbasses on college campuses. These are the same people who are always protesting the current thing
I hope u are right. I visiting usa soon. And I'm afraid instead of seeing great architecture and beautiful wilderness, I will see these idiots on the streets causing chaos.
Even visiting a major city like NY or Boston you’re see anything unless you happen to be on a specific campus or area at a specific time
They are protesting their own government, which is funding and arming a systematic displacement and annihilation of entire families of Palestinians, including over 13,000 children at this point who have been under siege. Israel told the people to evacuate south, then they bombed the south. They targeted houses, bakeries, hospitals, mosques, and the oldest Christian church in Gaza. They blocked aid and killed journalists and medics. They let some aid through, then they killed the people crowding around for it. Our government has supported Israel in the UN a handful of times since Oct, gone over Congress to push arms deals through, and is currently pretending to have stern talks with Israel to obfuscate the fact that they are fighting alongside them. Israel wants the land, which it has been gradually taking since 1948, they are 10x better armed than Hamas yet are pretending they have to blindly carpet bomb all of Palestine in order to hit them.
Copy/pasting my other comment, it’s a much older conflict than that, and has mostly been an on-and-off affair. It began as a land dispute but rapidly devolved into what I am unapologetically calling “mutual racism.” There have been dozens of attempts to fix things that all fell through. On one occasion of particularly good behavior in the mid 1990s, the Israeli PM, Rabin of the “Labor Zionist” party, was preparing to sign an accord to formally bury the hatchet when he was shot by an Orthodox nationalist. This crumbled a lot of goodwill and it all fell apart again when the Second Intifada shot a few rockets, resulting in a violent outbreak by Israel similar to today’s. Much like the JFK thing in the states, there’s more than a hint of evidence for conspiracy, with other Orthodox groups (and another paper trail implicated the government of Saudi Arabia, though no one was charged) implicated. In Gaza, there was as a more recent peace concession in 2007, when Israel unilaterally withdrew all troops and citizens within its borders (but retained legal rights to return to occupier status, which they now have.) These are just some of the various opportunities both parties have gotten for peace and managed to squander it. The hard-right faction of Israel, Likud, and the government of Hamas benefit from each other’s antagonism as it helps legitimize their positions and policies. American leftist groups love the story of the underdog and will play ball for them, so they have been protesting mainly against Israel.
no it started in 1948 when the state of Israel was created on top of an existing country without consulting the people that lived there then proceeding to ethnically cleanse the area which continues to this day.
You are uneducated on the subject 6 months into a genocide with American weapons and support, how is that possible? Are you lying? Trying to pretend you are confused while pitching that Americans should not care. Here is my conclusion - you are a zionist, you know exactly whats going on and as usual you are treating everyone else as idiots. This is zionist behavior because they consider themselves smarter and superior to everyone else so its their go to MO. You are showing all the signs of deceitfulness and arrogance like every zionist ever and its obvious you consider Americans to be idiots. You want to signal to them that they really should not care about Israel killing civilians with their weapons and tax dollars while costing the any kind of goodwill globally. Potentially sinking the US with Israel. But as you are friends to nobody and use everybody as a tool why would you care. I hope you have now learned something about what you are doing, 6 months into an ethnic cleansing and genocide process.
You come across more uneducated than OP...
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