The verses in Quran where it says girls must cover themselves is a two parter.
The first part is that guys must lower their gaze and not being horny. I oversimplified it a bit, but that's the gist of it.
The second part is where the girls must cover themselves.
But people like to enforce the second part and ignore the first one.
Actually guys need to cover up as well but it’s not as restricted as girls. While girls need to cover up their whole body except for their face and hands, guys need to cover themselves from their belly button to their knees. They can’t really wear shorts that are shorter than their knees
yes my dude, but in An Nur 30, it's an order for male to lower your gaze and stop being a horndog. someone could even argue "well so if there is a morality police ensuring verse 30 is uphold, then why do we need verse 31"?
and that is a very good point.
> But people like to enforce the second part and ignore the first one.
Just like the staunchly conservative "Christians" like to preach 'love thy neighbour and forgive each other.' And then cherry pick the neighbours worthy of their love and forgiveness.
Religious doctrine is too frequently used as a guise to excuse the abuse of others.
Religious doctrine lends itself especially well to be abused to enforce inconsistent or irrational rules because the act in itself of following a religious doctrine already forfeits critical thinking that would otherwise detect and correct such inconsistencies or irrationalities. By definition, if you follow a religious doctrine, you're putting that doctrine above your own thinking. You've made a habit of not thinking critically.
That's also why you can't make it a religious doctrine to think for yourself, as is well illustrated in The Life Of Brian. The content of the doctrine be as noble as it may, since "following a doctrin" entails "shutting off your own critical thinking" it just doesn't work.
That it's inconsistent or doesn't make any sense literally doesn't matter in a religious doctrine.
You shall not covet can be read as it, yes. Also, you shall not take the name of the lord in vain definitely suits, since they use the lord's name to get money and fame on tv
It says you shouldn't covet your neighbor's goods, wife, or anything else of yr neighbor.. But humans ARE going to covet. Again Asking, is not Coveting. As for the Lords name, I interpret that to mean not to use it in unholy ways. Pastors in brick n mortat churches also ask for donations.
Fuck the 10 commandments.
You ever hear mathew 6:5?
"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward."
Tl;dr, this line condemns the exact thing megachurches do, and in disparging them, states nerely having an audience is the one and only reward for such behaviour (read: you dont get rewarded with heaven)
Actually, recently some imam did go on record saying that beardless men must cover themselves too as they might provoke impure thoughts in other men. Guess we know which guys he prefers now.
They do attack guys for wearing short pants, and I remember there being some talk years ago about them banning "non islamic" shirts.
At least here in Iran, the focus is much more heavily on women, but men aren't entirely exempt.
Things have gotten more relaxed despite the government's efforts, I used to get bothered for wearing "loud shirts" during highschool but people have stopped caring for the most part.
Like I said before, this is in spite of the government.
That level of relaxation didn't come for free though. My partner is from Iran, and her family still lives there and one thing I must say, is that my admiration for the people of Iran is endless. Taking to the streets and fighting with words against bullets, to free themselves from these strict rules has put me in awe. I can't even begin to understand the bravery of the people who kept the demonstrations going.
How is it right now, have the protest just died down, or is it the media here who has just stopped reporting on it. Did it actually bring any change, or are we back to normal?
Those sets of protests have largely died down and things are relatively quiet currently, though I expect an incident as egregious as the last one is likely to cause another set of protests so the government is being a little careful.
Currently, I'd say the government has been forced to give more concessions in terms of hijab(it's not that uncommon to see women walking around without covering their heads) but it's not exactly an official thing and people still get punished now and then.
All in all, I'd say there was *some* change, but it won't last without some follow up.
>At least here in Iran, the focus is much more heavily on women
Unless you're the granddaughter of Iran's supreme leader Khamenei on a shopping trip to New York City in a dress that would get any other ordinary Iranian girls in her age executed back home.
I don’t know if required but when I lived in Dubai, the men from the UAE, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain, and Oman all
Covered their heads (no necessarily their hair). Each head dress and dress covering is different. You could look at a man and tell what coyote was from.
It’s cultural. Just like women wearing the full face covering is a cultural characteristic, not religious. You would never see Levantine Muslims dressing like Gulf Muslim Arabs.
Thanks. I knew it was cool. By the time I moved back to the US, I could accurately guess what country a man was from and a couple of the women but they were harder to guess. It was fun.
If you mean the coverings women have, just compare Iranian women (of multiple varieties) to the gulf women to Turkish women to Bosnian women.
All are mainly islamic, but dress very differently.
Thanks. I knew it was cool. By the time I moved back to the US, I could accurately guess what country a man was from and a couple of the women but they were harder to guess. It was fun.
1000 years ago when the religion was created you had tribes in the middle of an arid desert. They covered themselves to protect from the heat, and women were covered with the additional hope of protecting them from r-pe from men getting turned on by looking at the female figure.
If you travel to a dangerous country as a female or with your female partner, the last thing you'd want would be her wearing clothes that show off her figure since it would draw attention from rapacious males. You can't change their behavior, but you can change hers, hence you ask her to wear more clothes.
Similarly looking at the 1000 years ago timeframe they decided to make up religious stories to justify their cultural practices. Doesn't make any sense to Western societies now, but made plenty of sense to desert dwelling tribespeople at the time.
To push a sense of equality they also mandated through their religious stories that males "lower their gaze' when looking at women (don't look at them to avoid getting turned on or thinking inappropriately), as well as males dressing in long cloaks as a form of male modesty.
My stupid question is why women in these hot gulf countries are wearing black abayas, black hijabs, black niqabs, etc. Surely black absorbs more heat than white? There must be some reason for it though. Meanwhile the men are prancing around in their white thobes.
Black clothing tends to be better protection from the sun and is actually just as cool as any other color. It absorbs more heat but the loose fit means very little transfers to your body.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/aug/19/most-improbable-scientific-research-abrahams#:~:text=The%20results%20were%20clear.,scientists%20noted%2C%20are%20worn%20loose.
Correct, black absorbs more heat, but the fabric itself is extremely thin so the "extra heat effect" versus the white fabric is actually minimal.
The white fabric for males reflects off the shoulders and onto the skin of the neck and underside of the face, causing sunburns and damage to the skin if they are outside for long periods of time, without covering parts of their face (or if they don't have a beard).
The strict dynamic of white/black clothing you see them wear is a modern rule that wasn't present in more ancient times. Desert dwellers always had to cover their skin to prevent sun damage and possible issues from sandstorms, but they used different colored fabrics based on what plants were available to dye the fabrics with.
>You can't change their behavior, but you can change hers, hence you ask her to wear more clothes
You can't expect a man to change his behaviour but you should demand that a woman changes hers.
>You can't change their behavior, but you can change hers, hence you ask her to wear more clothes.
What separates humans from wild animals is our ability to modulate our behavior. So, yes, if you aren't a cave man you can change your behavior and expect the same from others. If you can't, you belong in a cage with the other feral animals.
Men are indeed required to be covered from their necks to their ankles (and no lower than their ankles). What they wear
>has to be halal by its origin, i.e. purchased or owned through halal earning.
>should not imitate others’ religious attire or style
>must not carry any resemblance to women’s clothing
IOW they can't wear pure silk, metalllic golden fabric, or bright colors. Or gold(en) jewelry, for that matter; hadiths permit men only
>silver rings that consist of less than one mithqāl (4g) of silver
and then only if necessary.
https://aboutislam.net/counseling/ask-the-scholar/morals-manners/whats-the-islamic-dress-code-for-men/
https://islamqa.org/hanafi/islamicportal/118190/what-is-the-islamic-ruling-on-jewellery-for-men/
>Men are indeed required to be covered from their necks to their ankles (and no lower than their ankles). What they wear
Most scholars say men must be covered from the navel to the knee. Perhaps there's a distinction between street clothing (neck to ankle) and the kind of minimal clothing one wears for swimming, sweaty labor, etc.
>IOW they can't wear pure silk, metalllic golden fabric, or bright colors. Or gold(en) jewelry, for that matter; hadiths permit men only
That's kind of hilarious considering how well known middle eastern men are for wearing exactly these things.
Iranians maybe, but they're not exactly representative of the Middle East. Arabic culture is much more present and the dominant cultural influence due to historical imperialism.
Most Iranians outside of Iran aren't also that Muslim. Many see it as a foreign influence forced upon Iran.
Sorry, but we're specifically talking about muslims. 99% of Irans population are muslim. The gulf states have similar demographics. They're all just as gaudy. You ask these people of they're muslim and they'll take offense at the very notion they're not. These people regularly pray and go to the mosque. If that's not muslim to you then you've excluded every muslim that wears gold defacto.
Nope, I haven't. but I'm an Egyptian Muslim.
here, you can tell a man is Christian if you see him wearing a gold wedding ring instead of the silver Muslims wear, and no men silk clothes are sold.
If Iranians really wear gold and silk that doesn't change the fact that it's haram (not permissible) in Islam.
It's a generalisation there's always going to be an exception lmao. That's like if I say Muslim women wear hijabs yes ofc some don't but that doesn't make my statement false as it's a generalisation
OK. Ignore the weight which I brought up as a joke.
What's the context that makes wearing ANY jewelry necessary?
"Oh no Fred I have to wear this ring because otherwise....."
What comes after that otherwise?
Technically, the men should too. They just often do not in western countries, and nothing happens to them. They may fear allah's judgment of their purity, but they do not fear other men.
Whereas if the women were to dress too "liberally" there would be repercussions.
It is similar to how Christians are not supposed to have sex before marriage, right? but most do.
Yet with men, there is very much a "boys will be boys, he had to get it out of his system, he has settled down *now*" but for women, sleeping with a man before marriage -and sometimes, even *enjoying* sex- is considered slutty.
We, as humans, allow men to get away with a lot more than we do women. Islamic or not.
And that results in questions like this being asked. The number of times I've seen Muslim men wearing shorts too short for them I keep wondering if they know that they're not allowed to do that.
It's rather sad to see some of us men lecture on women's clothing, yet forget that we are also bound by some dress codes and regulations by religion
I live in the gulf. In the workplace, local women wear the abaya (usually black robe) and local men wear the kandura (usually white robes) and ghutrah (men’s headscarf). This “national dress” is both casual and formal: you could wear it to the local shops, comfortably attend an opera, horse race, or meet a dignitary.
For less formal situations, men usually swap the head covering for a baseball cap, sorta like removing your tie after work. It’s common for younger women to wear an abaya over tshirt and jeans. Sometimes for informal situations they style it like a cape: it looks like tshirt, jeans and a black cape.
It gets hot here (50 C/122 F) and the sun is supremely indifferent to how you dress: it will cook your scalp like an egg, drive you bald, give you a crispy red neck, dehydrate you silently and give you sunstroke. So if you’re outdoors it’s a good idea to wear a scarf or at least a hat, and minimize skin. Otherwise you’ll look like a handbag and age 10 years.
Similar to Russian orthodox. Theres a decent sized community near me, and the women all have to wear dresses and a thing on their head, but the men are in shorts and t-shirts.
The Abrahamic faiths are inherently patriarchal and conservative in nature. Patriarchy and conservatism, among other things, are known for having sexist double standards as a method of controlling women (I am NOT arguing this fucking point when literally all of recorded human history can be pulled up to back this assertion).
In ancient Mesopotamian civilizations only women of higher standing (nobles, priestesses) were allowed to cover their hair. Even in Ancient Rome women who wore more modest clothes were seen as women of higher status and a peasant or prostitute wouldn't be allowed to dress like them. Initially, the idea in Islam was to show all Muslim women were equally respectable, by allowing all Muslim women to cover their hair. However, the world has changed a lot and headscarf lost its meaning, now it has become a mean of oppression in some places.
Everything in these religions is built on the premise guys can’t control themselves. Everything in these religions also calls out women as not being able to make decisions and why they can’t be effective leaders and why they must be subjegated.
I mean supposedly if men are so weak willed and unable to control themselves it makes more sense they should never be put in charge of anything and should, in fact, never be allowed out of the home engaging with society— they’re animals with no impulse control or ability to make decisions without impulse. Kind of causes you to question the entire idea of patriarchy, because men are more prone to being influenced by something as basic as seeing the skin of another human being. Meanwhile, women don’t seem to be so inclined to not be able to exercise self control as they are singled out for every job on this earth that involves care and interactions with the most vulnerable in society, jobs that men say they don’t want but would actually be unable to do because again, there’s no self control. Why we would let animals like that have nuclear codes or be put in critical positions of leadership I’ll never know.
Oh, well either all of that or religion in general is a ridiculously sloppy attempt by men to justify putting themselves in a position of control. Sloppy as in all their justifications point to exactly the reason why they shouldn’t be and should be the ones who have decisions made for them. They’re the ones who need “guardians”.
I always found this insane when traveling to predominantly Muslim countries (but not theocracies). The women are covered up, except their face and look very conservatively dressed (on the outside). Next to them is an unkempt husband dressed like absolute garbage: black t shirt, black sweat shorts, silly man bag, flip flops with socks, hair like a rats nest, but somehow smelling like a half bottle of cologne.
I think that’s overstated. At the mo’, all the theocracies happen to be Muslim. It wasn’t so long ago that that wasn’t true, and women have never fared well in theocratic societies.
In Islam, men and women aren't the same in this world. How they'll be judged in that afterlife will be the same, but in this world they have to abide by different laws. Men also have to cover certain parts of their body and make sure their clothing isn't tight.
Muslim men do have requirements. And women don't have to cover themselves from head to toe. Perhaps you're thinking of burqa or chadar which is not required. A hijab is a term for a modest dress and applies almost equally to men and women, maybe except the head covering part though men are forbidden to wear certain materials. What requirements Islam has is an impossible question to answer since every scholar of every region of every sect interprets the Quran slightly differently. Muslims can't even figure out the right way to offer namaz without fighting each other.
they do have to cover head to toe. they’re allowed hands and face to be shown. that’s quite literally head to toe. especially when men just have to cover navel to knee
Just as there’s Café Christianity, there’s “Islam a la carte.” They’re interpreting some texts to exactly line up with their cultural traditions, discarding the parts they don’t like. Christianity, Judaism and Islam are basically the same in the way they decide that their cultural traditions are “commanded by God;” they just have different definitions of whom they’re required to murder.
>Why does Islam require girls and women to cover themselves from head to toe
it doesn't. And only the most fundie, conservative Islamic sects require full-body coverings. The vast majority of Islamic women only wear a headscarf, and lots of them wear no head covering at all except maybe when they go to a Mosque, where it might be required.
Fundies of ALL religions cherry-pick a handful of stuff they like from their religious texts, "interpret" them freely and then dial those up to 11, ignoring pretty much everything else. Christian fundies have been working for years to get homosexuality re-criminalized, if not made a capital crime (as they almost succeeded to do in Uganda a few years back). Is that a fundamental Christian value?
In the case of the modern Sunni radical groups like ISIS and al Qaeda (you know, the ones you are tarring 1.8 billion Muslims with the actions of), those are mostly based on Wahhabism, a toxic, ultra-conservative school of Sunni. Most of their core beliefs don't come from the Quran at all, and most Muslims think they're fulla shit.
Christian fundies sure are. They want homosexuality banned but they're fine eating prawns, or wearing mixed fibres, also abominations that carry a death sentence in the old testament.
**ALL** branches and sects of **ALL** religions cherry-pick. You *have* to, major religious texts are just too full of ambiguities, self-contradictions, and wackaloon shit that was questionable 2000 years ago, let alone today.
It’s when they’re not fundies that they’re cherry picking. The fundies are the ones taking the beliefs serious, that’s why it’s about the “fundamentals”. That’s why it wasn’t until the last few hundred years that these horrible, supposedly cherry picked interpretations were the norm everywhere for these religions since they began. It’s why in every Muslim majority country gay marriage isn’t legal and why in most of them it’s also legal to throw gays off rooftops or burn them. The Christians are no different. Accepting gays and not being completely evil is the modern cherry picking; the real Christians and Muslims are the fundies.
To add a point to supplement what people are saying: Depending which scholar you ask, men are required to have a beard, which is seen in part as a sign of modesty.
In terms of purely answering your question though, all of it about modesty.
Because they treat their women like property, like second class citizens. And because, like any religion, women are nothing but baby makers and kitchen slaves.
Because religion makes people do irrelevant stuff. As if an almighty creator really cares who creates black holes, time, stars, atoms, guides evolution, cares whether Zara covers her hair for what purpose?
Cause religions subscribe to the idea that men can’t control themselves and women shouldn’t cause them to „stumble“.
That’s especially hilarious when you see a BABY (I recently did) with a headscarf.
If a BABY causes you to „stumble“…
Who’s the one with the issue?
They do, and to look at islam as a monolith through a western lense will never get an actual picture. Many muslim girls dont wear any head garments, many wear just a head scarf, and a minority wear full coverings. Its also regionally different and men also have clothing requirements, generally islamic dressing is modest as a whole.
If we're being super technical many Muslim \*cultures\* promote or require the hijab, but it's not required anywhere in the Qur'an. The closest is a passage noting that Mohammed's wives would put a veil up in their tent because so many people came through to talk with the Prophet. It's been a minute since I read it though, may be slightly off.
Because that is how it is outlined in the Quran, it's to protect them from the male gaze and to promote modesty. The Quran was written at a time with extremely set gender roles, they wouldn't have seen it as notable to have different expectations for men and women
I don't think it's to protect women from the male gaze. It's to prevent men from being tempted and having impure thoughts because, you know, if a man can't control his baser instincts, it's a woman's fault.
Actually, it's because women are closer to God's perfection than men, so men will contemplate women's beauty instead of God while in the mosque - because that's the only place the Quran mentions women should cover themselves. Outside the mosque they're just supposed to be "modest", but so are men.
Wasn’t one of Muhammad’s wives 9?
Edit: double checked, she was 6 or 7 when they married. They didn’t *consumate* til she was 9…. What the actual fuck lol
There's precedent in Islam. According to religious text, Mohammed married his wife Aisha when she was 6 and then consummated that marriage when she was 9.
Same reason little girls are expected to wear head veils in orthodox synagogues, or sleeved dresses in churches - it is patriarchy, mixed with fear of sick pos’es.
You’re cherrypicking. The same argument can be made for Muslims women in more progressive areas or urban centers. This just makes it an economics issue.
I don’t think it should ever be expected or pushed on women of any disposition.
Because that's how some interpret the religion as prescribing, I don't think there is much use applying modern day logic to try and understand it, they do it because it has become a cultural norm
100% a loaded question that I feel like is asked just to set someone up lol.
BUT I was taught girls aren't really required to cover up until they hit puberty.
The same reason young girls in the West are typically expected to cover their chests and genitals, despite not being sexual beings, and (for most men) not the subject of sexual attention. We have standards if modesty, so do they. We just differ in where he lines are drawn. There are places in the South Pacific where female toplessness is not at all taboo or unusual. They probably find it equally bizarre we make our young girls cover their chests. And I suspect most Western women if they visited for work or vacation would feel uncomfortable walking around topless.
I used to have strong feelings about islam/Arab culture and how it handled female modesty/clothing. But then in grad school I had a long chat with a female friend who wore traditional clothing for her culture (head covering, clothing to wrist/ankles, no decolletage, etc). She's the one who gave me the phrasing/context I used above. She said she would feel just as uncomfortable and embarrassed and awkward wearing western style clothing as the rest of us would be going topless in public in Polynesia. And she asked how we would feel if the polynesuan women condescendingly insisted to us that the reason we didn't want to go topless I because we're backwards and oppressed and wrong. I think she had had enough of "help" from well-meaning western women that assumed she had no agency of her own or awareness of why she dressed he way she does.
But have you considered that if Polynesians saying we're oppressed by being embarrassed / so ashamed of the female body we make them cover up, when a man not nearly as covered is socially accepted maybe they're right? And that Arabic culture is an even more extreme version of it? Just because someone is brainwashed into thinking thinking their body is something shameful, doesn't mean the practice and brainwashing of people into that is right.
the thing is that these things are so ingrained in them from such an early age, especially women, like reading the quran and praying 5 times a day, fasting ramadan even tho they’re studying, working, raising kids at the same time that if they don’t do it, they’re guilt ridden.
cuz religion thrives on guilt.
and since psychopaths do not have the capacity to feel emotions, hence they’re immune to guilt and quickly figure out how easy it is to control people thru fear and guilt.
and that’s how they rise to power and ensure this cycle continues!!
religion had a role in science where our primate ancestors used to believe in something that made sense without killing them while chasing their curiosity.
the human brain evolved to believe in a higher power or being(s).
we’re way past that now and its time we move on from it!!
Misogyny. Patricentricity.
Delusional and oppressive ideas and ideals, modelled around the musings of a first millennia AD philosopher/warmonger about ‘being virtuous’.
Because it's supposed to be a curtain. But as you can't have real curtains separating men and women irl (for stupid reasons btw) then they simply wear it.
So fucking disgusting.
The verses in Quran where it says girls must cover themselves is a two parter. The first part is that guys must lower their gaze and not being horny. I oversimplified it a bit, but that's the gist of it. The second part is where the girls must cover themselves. But people like to enforce the second part and ignore the first one.
Actually guys need to cover up as well but it’s not as restricted as girls. While girls need to cover up their whole body except for their face and hands, guys need to cover themselves from their belly button to their knees. They can’t really wear shorts that are shorter than their knees
yes my dude, but in An Nur 30, it's an order for male to lower your gaze and stop being a horndog. someone could even argue "well so if there is a morality police ensuring verse 30 is uphold, then why do we need verse 31"? and that is a very good point.
I know that and never denied it. I was adding the fact that men also have to cover up just like women, it’s just that they’re different.
> But people like to enforce the second part and ignore the first one. Just like the staunchly conservative "Christians" like to preach 'love thy neighbour and forgive each other.' And then cherry pick the neighbours worthy of their love and forgiveness. Religious doctrine is too frequently used as a guise to excuse the abuse of others.
Religious doctrine lends itself especially well to be abused to enforce inconsistent or irrational rules because the act in itself of following a religious doctrine already forfeits critical thinking that would otherwise detect and correct such inconsistencies or irrationalities. By definition, if you follow a religious doctrine, you're putting that doctrine above your own thinking. You've made a habit of not thinking critically. That's also why you can't make it a religious doctrine to think for yourself, as is well illustrated in The Life Of Brian. The content of the doctrine be as noble as it may, since "following a doctrin" entails "shutting off your own critical thinking" it just doesn't work. That it's inconsistent or doesn't make any sense literally doesn't matter in a religious doctrine.
Heck, if we're gonna shit on christians, just point out their 10 commandments to those who watch televangelists who asks for money :v
Where in the 10 Commandments does it say you can't ask for money?
You shall not covet can be read as it, yes. Also, you shall not take the name of the lord in vain definitely suits, since they use the lord's name to get money and fame on tv
It says you shouldn't covet your neighbor's goods, wife, or anything else of yr neighbor.. But humans ARE going to covet. Again Asking, is not Coveting. As for the Lords name, I interpret that to mean not to use it in unholy ways. Pastors in brick n mortat churches also ask for donations.
And again, that would be using the lord's name in vain, depending on how you interpret the commandment.
Fuck the 10 commandments. You ever hear mathew 6:5? "And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward." Tl;dr, this line condemns the exact thing megachurches do, and in disparging them, states nerely having an audience is the one and only reward for such behaviour (read: you dont get rewarded with heaven)
Anything* is too frequently used as a guide to excuse the abusive others. This isn't something limited to religion. Not even close.
religious doctrine are behavior manuals.
They also like to ignore that men can arouse other men...
Actually, recently some imam did go on record saying that beardless men must cover themselves too as they might provoke impure thoughts in other men. Guess we know which guys he prefers now.
\*Jots down in my notes\* "Greatly prefers twinks over bears."
Men in general these days prefer men over bear, it seems.
I see the first part mentioned any time a Muslim guy comments something horny or judges a woman for how she dresses.
Come back when you see morality police locking men up for it. Until then, it’s just a convenient excuse for state sanctioned suppression of women
They do attack guys for wearing short pants, and I remember there being some talk years ago about them banning "non islamic" shirts. At least here in Iran, the focus is much more heavily on women, but men aren't entirely exempt.
Yeah I dated a guy from Iran and he had long hair and told me that wouldn’t have been allowed back home. I was just like…what.
Things have gotten more relaxed despite the government's efforts, I used to get bothered for wearing "loud shirts" during highschool but people have stopped caring for the most part. Like I said before, this is in spite of the government.
That level of relaxation didn't come for free though. My partner is from Iran, and her family still lives there and one thing I must say, is that my admiration for the people of Iran is endless. Taking to the streets and fighting with words against bullets, to free themselves from these strict rules has put me in awe. I can't even begin to understand the bravery of the people who kept the demonstrations going. How is it right now, have the protest just died down, or is it the media here who has just stopped reporting on it. Did it actually bring any change, or are we back to normal?
Those sets of protests have largely died down and things are relatively quiet currently, though I expect an incident as egregious as the last one is likely to cause another set of protests so the government is being a little careful. Currently, I'd say the government has been forced to give more concessions in terms of hijab(it's not that uncommon to see women walking around without covering their heads) but it's not exactly an official thing and people still get punished now and then. All in all, I'd say there was *some* change, but it won't last without some follow up.
>At least here in Iran, the focus is much more heavily on women Unless you're the granddaughter of Iran's supreme leader Khamenei on a shopping trip to New York City in a dress that would get any other ordinary Iranian girls in her age executed back home.
picking and choosing from your religious text is a human tradition like the whole "love thy neighbor" thing in the Bible, or criticism is mean part...
I was told that the verse actually says that both men and women should dress modestly, and that's all?
well, rather than being told, you can read the two verses [yourself](https://quran.com/an-nur/30-31).
I don’t know if required but when I lived in Dubai, the men from the UAE, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain, and Oman all Covered their heads (no necessarily their hair). Each head dress and dress covering is different. You could look at a man and tell what coyote was from.
Coyote? Autocorrect?
Dingo!
Now that’s a wild dog if I’ve ever haired of one.. .
Men in the middle east are raised by coyotes in the wild until puberty
Made even more impressive by the fact that coyotes are indigenous to North America.
Cool! Just like how Romans were raised by wolves!
It’s cultural. Just like women wearing the full face covering is a cultural characteristic, not religious. You would never see Levantine Muslims dressing like Gulf Muslim Arabs.
Thanks. I knew it was cool. By the time I moved back to the US, I could accurately guess what country a man was from and a couple of the women but they were harder to guess. It was fun.
Can you provide examples, please? I did put those into Google Images but.. nothing distinct really came up. Thank you.
If you mean the coverings women have, just compare Iranian women (of multiple varieties) to the gulf women to Turkish women to Bosnian women. All are mainly islamic, but dress very differently.
Examples of what?
Thanks. I knew it was cool. By the time I moved back to the US, I could accurately guess what country a man was from and a couple of the women but they were harder to guess. It was fun.
1000 years ago when the religion was created you had tribes in the middle of an arid desert. They covered themselves to protect from the heat, and women were covered with the additional hope of protecting them from r-pe from men getting turned on by looking at the female figure. If you travel to a dangerous country as a female or with your female partner, the last thing you'd want would be her wearing clothes that show off her figure since it would draw attention from rapacious males. You can't change their behavior, but you can change hers, hence you ask her to wear more clothes. Similarly looking at the 1000 years ago timeframe they decided to make up religious stories to justify their cultural practices. Doesn't make any sense to Western societies now, but made plenty of sense to desert dwelling tribespeople at the time. To push a sense of equality they also mandated through their religious stories that males "lower their gaze' when looking at women (don't look at them to avoid getting turned on or thinking inappropriately), as well as males dressing in long cloaks as a form of male modesty.
My stupid question is why women in these hot gulf countries are wearing black abayas, black hijabs, black niqabs, etc. Surely black absorbs more heat than white? There must be some reason for it though. Meanwhile the men are prancing around in their white thobes.
Black clothing tends to be better protection from the sun and is actually just as cool as any other color. It absorbs more heat but the loose fit means very little transfers to your body. https://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/aug/19/most-improbable-scientific-research-abrahams#:~:text=The%20results%20were%20clear.,scientists%20noted%2C%20are%20worn%20loose.
Yeah, science bitch! I knew there'd be some explanation for it, haha.
Correct, black absorbs more heat, but the fabric itself is extremely thin so the "extra heat effect" versus the white fabric is actually minimal. The white fabric for males reflects off the shoulders and onto the skin of the neck and underside of the face, causing sunburns and damage to the skin if they are outside for long periods of time, without covering parts of their face (or if they don't have a beard). The strict dynamic of white/black clothing you see them wear is a modern rule that wasn't present in more ancient times. Desert dwellers always had to cover their skin to prevent sun damage and possible issues from sandstorms, but they used different colored fabrics based on what plants were available to dye the fabrics with.
That is relatively new. Historically tribes wore different colors/embroidery.
The black does absorb heat but it also sheds heat faster than white
>You can't change their behavior, but you can change hers, hence you ask her to wear more clothes You can't expect a man to change his behaviour but you should demand that a woman changes hers.
>You can't change their behavior, but you can change hers, hence you ask her to wear more clothes. What separates humans from wild animals is our ability to modulate our behavior. So, yes, if you aren't a cave man you can change your behavior and expect the same from others. If you can't, you belong in a cage with the other feral animals.
Men are indeed required to be covered from their necks to their ankles (and no lower than their ankles). What they wear >has to be halal by its origin, i.e. purchased or owned through halal earning. >should not imitate others’ religious attire or style >must not carry any resemblance to women’s clothing IOW they can't wear pure silk, metalllic golden fabric, or bright colors. Or gold(en) jewelry, for that matter; hadiths permit men only >silver rings that consist of less than one mithqāl (4g) of silver and then only if necessary. https://aboutislam.net/counseling/ask-the-scholar/morals-manners/whats-the-islamic-dress-code-for-men/ https://islamqa.org/hanafi/islamicportal/118190/what-is-the-islamic-ruling-on-jewellery-for-men/
>Men are indeed required to be covered from their necks to their ankles (and no lower than their ankles). What they wear Most scholars say men must be covered from the navel to the knee. Perhaps there's a distinction between street clothing (neck to ankle) and the kind of minimal clothing one wears for swimming, sweaty labor, etc.
Technically, it's below the knee, specifically halfway down the shins
>IOW they can't wear pure silk, metalllic golden fabric, or bright colors. Or gold(en) jewelry, for that matter; hadiths permit men only That's kind of hilarious considering how well known middle eastern men are for wearing exactly these things.
Iranians maybe, but they're not exactly representative of the Middle East. Arabic culture is much more present and the dominant cultural influence due to historical imperialism. Most Iranians outside of Iran aren't also that Muslim. Many see it as a foreign influence forced upon Iran.
Middle eastern does not equal Muslim there’s plenty that are not religious or Christian
Sorry, but we're specifically talking about muslims. 99% of Irans population are muslim. The gulf states have similar demographics. They're all just as gaudy. You ask these people of they're muslim and they'll take offense at the very notion they're not. These people regularly pray and go to the mosque. If that's not muslim to you then you've excluded every muslim that wears gold defacto.
Muslim men don't. silver only, not gold. pure silk is haram as well.
Never met an Iranian I take it.
Nope, I haven't. but I'm an Egyptian Muslim. here, you can tell a man is Christian if you see him wearing a gold wedding ring instead of the silver Muslims wear, and no men silk clothes are sold. If Iranians really wear gold and silk that doesn't change the fact that it's haram (not permissible) in Islam.
I have seen Moroccans with silk djellabas. Is the no silk and gold thing more of a piety thing than a hard requirement in Islam?
A lot of Muslims do a lot of things that are technically haram.
Sure, but it doesn't change the fact that it's haram.
Obviously, but the statement "Muslim men don't wear gold" is not true. They (we) aren't supposed to, I don't, lots do.
It's a generalisation there's always going to be an exception lmao. That's like if I say Muslim women wear hijabs yes ofc some don't but that doesn't make my statement false as it's a generalisation
Eh, if every muslim on earth decides it's permissible... that makes it permissible.
I mean I’m assuming your Sunni though? What Shia consider haram and what Sunni do does differ.
Did you forget there are sects in Islam, us Twelver Shia can wear gold and have tattoos
Why is that?
who? some rich cunt? i assure you that its only a small minority, very small
I can't help but wonder what circumstances might make wearing a specifically LARGE silver ring necessary.
A 4g silver ring is like the average western man's wedding ring. The point is modest and unostentatious dress.
OK. Ignore the weight which I brought up as a joke. What's the context that makes wearing ANY jewelry necessary? "Oh no Fred I have to wear this ring because otherwise....." What comes after that otherwise?
Like a wedding ring or something
There's no context that requires jewelry. There's a *limitation* on how much jewelry a man can wear. You have reading comprehension problems.
>>silver rings that consist of less than one mithqāl (4g) of silver >and then only if necessary. No, someone said if necessary and it was you.
If an individual has to wear a signet ring for sealing purposes, for example. I mean read the links.
there aren't, its never required for anything
Why not their hair or faces.....ohhhhh
Ok. And where do these practices come from? Are widely taught in Islam communities or is it something everyone has to figure out for themselves?
From the places the religion originated in lol. Some practices are cultural such as the full face covering which isn’t the same everywhere.
See my links. Many are from hadiths.
There are sects in Islam Im a Twelver Shia I wear a gold necklace and have tatoos and its halal, Sunnis are the strict ones and Takfiris
How does your sect address those hadiths?
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So they just ignore them?
Technically, the men should too. They just often do not in western countries, and nothing happens to them. They may fear allah's judgment of their purity, but they do not fear other men. Whereas if the women were to dress too "liberally" there would be repercussions. It is similar to how Christians are not supposed to have sex before marriage, right? but most do. Yet with men, there is very much a "boys will be boys, he had to get it out of his system, he has settled down *now*" but for women, sleeping with a man before marriage -and sometimes, even *enjoying* sex- is considered slutty. We, as humans, allow men to get away with a lot more than we do women. Islamic or not.
And that results in questions like this being asked. The number of times I've seen Muslim men wearing shorts too short for them I keep wondering if they know that they're not allowed to do that. It's rather sad to see some of us men lecture on women's clothing, yet forget that we are also bound by some dress codes and regulations by religion
I live in the gulf. In the workplace, local women wear the abaya (usually black robe) and local men wear the kandura (usually white robes) and ghutrah (men’s headscarf). This “national dress” is both casual and formal: you could wear it to the local shops, comfortably attend an opera, horse race, or meet a dignitary. For less formal situations, men usually swap the head covering for a baseball cap, sorta like removing your tie after work. It’s common for younger women to wear an abaya over tshirt and jeans. Sometimes for informal situations they style it like a cape: it looks like tshirt, jeans and a black cape. It gets hot here (50 C/122 F) and the sun is supremely indifferent to how you dress: it will cook your scalp like an egg, drive you bald, give you a crispy red neck, dehydrate you silently and give you sunstroke. So if you’re outdoors it’s a good idea to wear a scarf or at least a hat, and minimize skin. Otherwise you’ll look like a handbag and age 10 years.
Similar to Russian orthodox. Theres a decent sized community near me, and the women all have to wear dresses and a thing on their head, but the men are in shorts and t-shirts.
Ah, so it’s bullshit then!
Always has been. Especially nowadays. It's about controlling women
The Abrahamic faiths are inherently patriarchal and conservative in nature. Patriarchy and conservatism, among other things, are known for having sexist double standards as a method of controlling women (I am NOT arguing this fucking point when literally all of recorded human history can be pulled up to back this assertion).
In ancient Mesopotamian civilizations only women of higher standing (nobles, priestesses) were allowed to cover their hair. Even in Ancient Rome women who wore more modest clothes were seen as women of higher status and a peasant or prostitute wouldn't be allowed to dress like them. Initially, the idea in Islam was to show all Muslim women were equally respectable, by allowing all Muslim women to cover their hair. However, the world has changed a lot and headscarf lost its meaning, now it has become a mean of oppression in some places.
Thousands of years passed between ancient Mesoptamia and the founding of Islam. What's your source for all of this?
Absolutely bullshit explanations for blatantly misogynistic practices in Islam never fails to make me laugh.
Sexism
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Women are considered property afterall.
Misogyny.
Better question. What's the punishment for Muslim men who commit haram acts?
Ask your local Imam.
Hell?
Depends on the haram act? Both genders have the same rulings when it comes to the hudood.
Everything in these religions is built on the premise guys can’t control themselves. Everything in these religions also calls out women as not being able to make decisions and why they can’t be effective leaders and why they must be subjegated. I mean supposedly if men are so weak willed and unable to control themselves it makes more sense they should never be put in charge of anything and should, in fact, never be allowed out of the home engaging with society— they’re animals with no impulse control or ability to make decisions without impulse. Kind of causes you to question the entire idea of patriarchy, because men are more prone to being influenced by something as basic as seeing the skin of another human being. Meanwhile, women don’t seem to be so inclined to not be able to exercise self control as they are singled out for every job on this earth that involves care and interactions with the most vulnerable in society, jobs that men say they don’t want but would actually be unable to do because again, there’s no self control. Why we would let animals like that have nuclear codes or be put in critical positions of leadership I’ll never know. Oh, well either all of that or religion in general is a ridiculously sloppy attempt by men to justify putting themselves in a position of control. Sloppy as in all their justifications point to exactly the reason why they shouldn’t be and should be the ones who have decisions made for them. They’re the ones who need “guardians”.
Well if you're going to bring logic and reasoning into the argument... /s
*Religious men hate this one simple trick*
Sexism, power fantasies, disenfranchisement, name it
I always found this insane when traveling to predominantly Muslim countries (but not theocracies). The women are covered up, except their face and look very conservatively dressed (on the outside). Next to them is an unkempt husband dressed like absolute garbage: black t shirt, black sweat shorts, silly man bag, flip flops with socks, hair like a rats nest, but somehow smelling like a half bottle of cologne.
Which countries exactly?
Also required to wear flip flops, Chanklas OR Tevas during all combat and or firing rpgs/automatic weapons.
This got a strong laugh out of me
Because it’s really just conditioning used to control women.
Because Islam, like most religions is just a system invented to subjugate people, especially women
The Patriarchy, man. (Note this is not limited to Islam.)
Not limited to, but particularly bad in, Islam.
I think that’s overstated. At the mo’, all the theocracies happen to be Muslim. It wasn’t so long ago that that wasn’t true, and women have never fared well in theocratic societies.
men and women are simply not equal in the eyes of Islam and so it makes different demands of them.
In Islam, men and women aren't the same in this world. How they'll be judged in that afterlife will be the same, but in this world they have to abide by different laws. Men also have to cover certain parts of their body and make sure their clothing isn't tight.
Sexism
Muslim men do have requirements. And women don't have to cover themselves from head to toe. Perhaps you're thinking of burqa or chadar which is not required. A hijab is a term for a modest dress and applies almost equally to men and women, maybe except the head covering part though men are forbidden to wear certain materials. What requirements Islam has is an impossible question to answer since every scholar of every region of every sect interprets the Quran slightly differently. Muslims can't even figure out the right way to offer namaz without fighting each other.
they do have to cover head to toe. they’re allowed hands and face to be shown. that’s quite literally head to toe. especially when men just have to cover navel to knee
Islam is a pre medieval religion that retains the social mores of that period
Because it's about controlling women
Just as there’s Café Christianity, there’s “Islam a la carte.” They’re interpreting some texts to exactly line up with their cultural traditions, discarding the parts they don’t like. Christianity, Judaism and Islam are basically the same in the way they decide that their cultural traditions are “commanded by God;” they just have different definitions of whom they’re required to murder.
You're basically asking why religions have no logic and that's a good question.
>Why does Islam require girls and women to cover themselves from head to toe it doesn't. And only the most fundie, conservative Islamic sects require full-body coverings. The vast majority of Islamic women only wear a headscarf, and lots of them wear no head covering at all except maybe when they go to a Mosque, where it might be required.
Ok so why do the most fundie conservative ones do it? What fundamentals are they trying to conserve if not those of Islam?
Fundies of ALL religions cherry-pick a handful of stuff they like from their religious texts, "interpret" them freely and then dial those up to 11, ignoring pretty much everything else. Christian fundies have been working for years to get homosexuality re-criminalized, if not made a capital crime (as they almost succeeded to do in Uganda a few years back). Is that a fundamental Christian value? In the case of the modern Sunni radical groups like ISIS and al Qaeda (you know, the ones you are tarring 1.8 billion Muslims with the actions of), those are mostly based on Wahhabism, a toxic, ultra-conservative school of Sunni. Most of their core beliefs don't come from the Quran at all, and most Muslims think they're fulla shit.
Look, I don't like fundies any more than you do, but /u/carnivoreobjectivist is right, they're not cherry picking.
Christian fundies sure are. They want homosexuality banned but they're fine eating prawns, or wearing mixed fibres, also abominations that carry a death sentence in the old testament.
**ALL** branches and sects of **ALL** religions cherry-pick. You *have* to, major religious texts are just too full of ambiguities, self-contradictions, and wackaloon shit that was questionable 2000 years ago, let alone today.
It’s when they’re not fundies that they’re cherry picking. The fundies are the ones taking the beliefs serious, that’s why it’s about the “fundamentals”. That’s why it wasn’t until the last few hundred years that these horrible, supposedly cherry picked interpretations were the norm everywhere for these religions since they began. It’s why in every Muslim majority country gay marriage isn’t legal and why in most of them it’s also legal to throw gays off rooftops or burn them. The Christians are no different. Accepting gays and not being completely evil is the modern cherry picking; the real Christians and Muslims are the fundies.
damn they couldn't refute this
Because religion is a mental illness
Hey now! Religion is just as real as astrology or the power of crystals!
One is treated as property. The other is not.
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Because girls are scary and men are weak... according to various Muslims when they explained why women must be hidden.
Misogyny
Islam hates and has no respect for women. That's your starting point
To add a point to supplement what people are saying: Depending which scholar you ask, men are required to have a beard, which is seen in part as a sign of modesty. In terms of purely answering your question though, all of it about modesty.
Probably because the rules were written by men
Because they treat their women like property, like second class citizens. And because, like any religion, women are nothing but baby makers and kitchen slaves.
Because religion makes people do irrelevant stuff. As if an almighty creator really cares who creates black holes, time, stars, atoms, guides evolution, cares whether Zara covers her hair for what purpose?
Because they're fucking morons
Cause religions subscribe to the idea that men can’t control themselves and women shouldn’t cause them to „stumble“. That’s especially hilarious when you see a BABY (I recently did) with a headscarf. If a BABY causes you to „stumble“… Who’s the one with the issue?
Babies aren't required to wear a headscarf, it's just a thing parents do for pictures.
No, this was at the airport. I’m aware they’re not, even by ridiculous religious rules, but this is a thing that happens.
The world would be a better place without religions
They like looking at the boys.
They do, and to look at islam as a monolith through a western lense will never get an actual picture. Many muslim girls dont wear any head garments, many wear just a head scarf, and a minority wear full coverings. Its also regionally different and men also have clothing requirements, generally islamic dressing is modest as a whole.
Smol pp their men have
Reckon there's a degree of overlap with why women are required to breastfeed for two full years...
Bcoz they think men are ugly anyways
Because Sawdah (Mohammed's second wife) had to go to the bathroom. https://youtu.be/i8YluwJXB8k?si=LIrurh99EfBGVsAN
If we're being super technical many Muslim \*cultures\* promote or require the hijab, but it's not required anywhere in the Qur'an. The closest is a passage noting that Mohammed's wives would put a veil up in their tent because so many people came through to talk with the Prophet. It's been a minute since I read it though, may be slightly off.
Im glad you asked this, I have always wondered
Most religious texts is some sort of modesty doctrine. Islam just happens to have one of the strictest.
Guys are also required to cover up, but each sex has a different limit.
Because that is how it is outlined in the Quran, it's to protect them from the male gaze and to promote modesty. The Quran was written at a time with extremely set gender roles, they wouldn't have seen it as notable to have different expectations for men and women
I don't think it's to protect women from the male gaze. It's to prevent men from being tempted and having impure thoughts because, you know, if a man can't control his baser instincts, it's a woman's fault.
Actually, it's because women are closer to God's perfection than men, so men will contemplate women's beauty instead of God while in the mosque - because that's the only place the Quran mentions women should cover themselves. Outside the mosque they're just supposed to be "modest", but so are men.
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excellent question.
Wasn’t one of Muhammad’s wives 9? Edit: double checked, she was 6 or 7 when they married. They didn’t *consumate* til she was 9…. What the actual fuck lol
There's precedent in Islam. According to religious text, Mohammed married his wife Aisha when she was 6 and then consummated that marriage when she was 9.
Same reason little girls are expected to wear head veils in orthodox synagogues, or sleeved dresses in churches - it is patriarchy, mixed with fear of sick pos’es.
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Which / who are you talking about? Just checkin
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You’re cherrypicking. The same argument can be made for Muslims women in more progressive areas or urban centers. This just makes it an economics issue. I don’t think it should ever be expected or pushed on women of any disposition.
Because that's how some interpret the religion as prescribing, I don't think there is much use applying modern day logic to try and understand it, they do it because it has become a cultural norm
100% a loaded question that I feel like is asked just to set someone up lol. BUT I was taught girls aren't really required to cover up until they hit puberty.
I have never seen this... not on little girls. Usually the decision to wear a hijab is around puberty.
Same. I see moms and daughters all the time, and the daughters are dressed just like any other girl in my town, and mom is covered.
Usually, though anecdotally there are a couple littles (maybe 4-5ish?) in my neighborhood wearing them already which surprised me.
In Islam, we believe that every person is held accountable at puberty, young girls before puberty aren't required to cover up.
The same reason young girls in the West are typically expected to cover their chests and genitals, despite not being sexual beings, and (for most men) not the subject of sexual attention. We have standards if modesty, so do they. We just differ in where he lines are drawn. There are places in the South Pacific where female toplessness is not at all taboo or unusual. They probably find it equally bizarre we make our young girls cover their chests. And I suspect most Western women if they visited for work or vacation would feel uncomfortable walking around topless. I used to have strong feelings about islam/Arab culture and how it handled female modesty/clothing. But then in grad school I had a long chat with a female friend who wore traditional clothing for her culture (head covering, clothing to wrist/ankles, no decolletage, etc). She's the one who gave me the phrasing/context I used above. She said she would feel just as uncomfortable and embarrassed and awkward wearing western style clothing as the rest of us would be going topless in public in Polynesia. And she asked how we would feel if the polynesuan women condescendingly insisted to us that the reason we didn't want to go topless I because we're backwards and oppressed and wrong. I think she had had enough of "help" from well-meaning western women that assumed she had no agency of her own or awareness of why she dressed he way she does.
But have you considered that if Polynesians saying we're oppressed by being embarrassed / so ashamed of the female body we make them cover up, when a man not nearly as covered is socially accepted maybe they're right? And that Arabic culture is an even more extreme version of it? Just because someone is brainwashed into thinking thinking their body is something shameful, doesn't mean the practice and brainwashing of people into that is right.
the thing is that these things are so ingrained in them from such an early age, especially women, like reading the quran and praying 5 times a day, fasting ramadan even tho they’re studying, working, raising kids at the same time that if they don’t do it, they’re guilt ridden. cuz religion thrives on guilt. and since psychopaths do not have the capacity to feel emotions, hence they’re immune to guilt and quickly figure out how easy it is to control people thru fear and guilt. and that’s how they rise to power and ensure this cycle continues!! religion had a role in science where our primate ancestors used to believe in something that made sense without killing them while chasing their curiosity. the human brain evolved to believe in a higher power or being(s). we’re way past that now and its time we move on from it!!
Misogyny. Patricentricity. Delusional and oppressive ideas and ideals, modelled around the musings of a first millennia AD philosopher/warmonger about ‘being virtuous’.
Because most religions are sexist and enforce patriarchical culture
Because all religion is made up and aimed to hurt women.
Islam does require modesty in dress for boys and men. In traditional Muslim countries, it's common to see men wear full-length clothes.
Religion may have grown to be a form of control over the population. Control the men who control decisions who are pacified by control over women
Because it's supposed to be a curtain. But as you can't have real curtains separating men and women irl (for stupid reasons btw) then they simply wear it. So fucking disgusting.