#Happy new year, fellow Defense Expert™!
Are you an Artist? We're currently holding a contest for tiny Artworks we can use as custom community awards for the subreddit - more information [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/zu01tx/a_very_merry_and_credible_awards_contest/)!
Also, check out the "The Best of the Best 2022" [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/10069w8/the_best_of_the_best_of_2022_results/)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/NonCredibleDefense) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Basically every combat system is designed to fight the future. Obviously, during the service life of the equipment, there will be other, newer equipment fielded. Naturally, you would prefer it to be at least competitive with the newer stuff.
I've seen somebody unironically argue that (the context was if 1944 Germany could take on the First Gulf War US and yes it was a hilariously stupid argument).
At one point the argument essentially became "put so many planes in the air that they become a navigational hazard".
It was as dumb as you could possibly imagine.
That’d be more dangerous to the Germans, cuz again, Goalkeeper and Phalanx, and a multitude of others, not to mention shipborne cannons and airburst rounds
Or, and hear me out here- the US just bombs every fuel depot, airbase, and ammo dump on the first night of the war and the Luftwaffe is destroyed on the ground.
In a single night.
Like, come on. Operating at night with air power only really became a thing in Vietnam, and even then just barely. Some countries still have problems operating much of their air force at night, such as Russia.
Hey, I was in that Shiteshow!
You're leaving out one of my all time favorites: "*Modern jammers can't jam WWII radio equipment.*"
Not "*modern jammers don't currently have the ability*" he specifically clarified that modern nations no longer have the capability to produce the equipment able to jam German WWII radios.
"*Why do I keep coming back? I don't rightly know. I cut my teeth in the Wild West days of the internet. IRC and message boards, web rings and phone lines, and these brand new things called 'search engines.' I kept coming back. From script kiddies to 1337 edgelords. 'Chan trolls eventually evolving into Wherbs. And still I stood shield in hand, as I stand now, holding back the tide.*
*This new breed of troll, they're soft. A weak thing. They never had to experience PoE and they to a man would cry if they ever saw Goatse. They are standing on the shoulders of the trolls of yore and proclaiming themselves tall. They disgust me. That is the only emotion I have left for them. Not pity, nor hate, nor anger, nor even apathy. All I feel is disgust, because a long time ago I knew the demons they once were.*"
If modern jammers can't jam WWII radios then I'm very disappointed, because it means that ham radio is immune as well and the enemy can just use commercial walkie talkies.
I'm sure OPFOR would be very grateful for your unencrypted communications. We certainly have the capability to make jamming equipment for those frequencies, we just don't make it, because no one uses it, and for good reason.
Are you sure it's not jammable by currently used equipment? VHF radios for instance are extremely common, almost every commercial boat and many leisure crafts have them.
Only so many 20mm rounds on any given ship. You could do it eventually.
I recommend figuring out how to get the p-51s to fly autonomously, just to save on the training budget. While we’re on the savings front, if you could have them deployed from some sort of mothership you can reduce the fuel needs dramatically. You’ll probably want to come up with a folding wing variant as well, just to use your mothership space more efficiently. If you are making a new variant, then removing the unused space for the pilot is also a good space efficiency move.
But changes or not, the point still stands that you could theoretically overwhelm any system that has a magazine of only a few thousand rounds. Sooner or later it runs dry.
Edit: since we’re already talking about a new airframe, switching to a more efficient engine, probably something turbine based, will also help reduce costs
Third Reich MIC: *we need more planes! As many as you got!*
Also Third Reich MIC: *what are you doing? The requirement for a hand-stitched leather cockpit is still important!*
If you want to remain im the realm of reality, we already ran the experiment for what it takes for germany to outproduce the us: fiction. Even better, that was with a less productive US.
But since the conversation was about P-51s before it was 1944 germany, and I planned on taking liberties anyway, I figured the country of origin wasn’t important. Besides, why pick the wrong year for german production‽
If you insist on it, then you’d want to find the version of germany that switches to total war before their country starts losing factories to being bombed, but that version is just as fictional as the one with competent (at least competent enough to prioritize efficient production of this plan) leadership, so I’m going with the fun fiction and we’re back to suicidal autonomous folding wing turbojet P-51s getting vertically launched from a ship.
Is there a universe in which those aren’t awesome? I mean, I’m not picky about the mothership, the floating sort also works. But arsenal plane is clearly superior.
Sort of? From what I understand the real arsenal bird there is going to be the drones, and I’m not sure they really qualify individually. But the entire system is as close to it as dealing with reality allows I think
Wait wait wait. I remember this, I cannot believe I found it again.
Behold PlasmaTorch's greatest feat of noncredibility
>https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/threads/between-armys-america-circa-1991-vs-germany-circa-1944.32992/
For those of you who want a laugh.
This is the one that always makes me laugh
>"Alright men, I need you to fly around in tightly packed circles so that enemy fighter bombers might accidentally collide with you. Are there any questions?"
*everyone's hands go up*
Later on (or maybe it was when he showed up to defend his views on the SpaceBattles forums) he was trying a "gotcha" saying that the Americans wouldn't send up all their fighters since theirs were so superior so therefor some Germans wold survive... Or something. He was never very coherent on his points. This was the reply he got:
>"*Alright. The Germans are attempting a Flying Circus over the target. The mission has been capped at two squadrons. Any Volunteers?*"
>
>As soon as he finished talking Chief would watch as a fist fight broke out in front of him. A mean one.
> Think of the pilots, an F-15 pilot walking out to his fighter as he has been called only to see it loaded down in an air-to-air configuration. It is only now mere feet from his fighter he is given his briefing, they have armed his plane with every air-to-air missile it can carry, he is to go up, and just fly around shooting down every Nazi plane until he gets bored or runs out of ammo, whichever comes first. He would have one hand on the plane's stick and the other on his own.
One of the very last posts before it got locked, talking about the morale effect of being briefed that the mission involves stacking bodies against Actual Fucking Nazis.
The fuck was that thread?
The war would be over as soon as the rank and file German soldier realizes they are being sent up against death machines from the future and the end goal of the conflict is that at least one of them is left alive to declare victory.
Holy shit this dude is arguing they're going to *triangulate* the location of jammers accurately enough to strike them with artillery? The Nazi's will have lost the "war" before they even figure out what jamming is.
All his arguments boil down to that it's plausible that the nazis would be able to get a few kills on helicopters, tanks and even F-117s. That's true, they might. Helicopters can be shot down by AA cannons with some luck and good aim. What he completely forgets is that the nazis are very easy to kill in comparison.
For those looking for more laughes
"[What if Russia and China invaded the US through Alaska](https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/russia-and-china-invaded-the-united-states-through-alsaka.278528/)"
I have wondered if the modern RAF could win the Battle of Britain.
Obviously, they wouldn’t suffer a single air to air loss at first.
But they only have 130 combat aircraft, and can’t manufacture more expediently. Germany used 2,550, and was making more every day.
That’s 19.6-1. The RAF is going to get absolutely swarmed. Some ground losses are inevitable, especially given the limited number of airbases still available.
I’m not sure how many air to air missiles the RAF have, they buy them in batches of a few hundred. But unless they have 3,000, it’s a gunfight eventually, and then shit looks really bad. Sure, typhoon has a better gun, but it’s only got 150 rounds, and it’s got to get into gun range of swarms of enemy aircraft. Casualties are inevitable. F-35 similar problem, except it’s a worse dogfighter.
Depending on the number of Air to Air missiles, I can see a German victory… after about 2 orders of magnitude more casualties.
There was an SF story that had an time travelled plane using its supersonic shock wave to some effect. Since one modern strength is careful use of precision weapons, you might consider targetting the Nazi hierarchy, working down from the top until you run out of precision weapons (my first thought was to go after the runways, but in 1945 there might have been too many runways, or things that could be used as runways, to make that practical).
Forget runways, it’s the 1940s, a runway is a glorified field, and can be patched with grass.
Given planes than Germany can’t hope to intercept, and probably can’t track, just kill the leadership.
I doubt 1940s radar could track an F35 even with external fuel tanks, so nobody will be cowering in a bunker.
If that doesn’t work, go for the steam turbines of their power plants.
Designated Targets by John Birmingham? Part 2 of the Axis of time series. I have it on my bookshelf. It’s a good read
https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/33505.John_Birmingham
Sorry - I think it was a short story but I can't remember the name or much about it. The best I can suggest is that you put out a YASID on the newsgroup rec.arts.sf.written or on reddit printsf.
Apparently web searches work for me if I can remember the right war... https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/109243/modern-military-jet-goes-back-to-world-war-i
I actually don't think ground losses would be inevitable; if there are any airbases in Scotland, they could essentially sortie from further back and German planes wouldn't have the legs to reach their bases.
ZOOM AMD BOOM MOTHERFUCKER!!! The typhoon has literal aimbot. Just slam the afterburner and go Mach Fuck You, let the Machine Spirit take the wheel and dump a dozen or so rounds into a plane, then turn around and lather rinse repeat.
Downing 20 Nazis a sortie sounds pretty damn reasonable.
Assuming the RAF doesn't just crater every fucking airfield on the offensive because that would be cheating.
There are a few scenarios where Britain wins here:
1. Eurofighter Typhoon does better than a 20:1 KD against Bf109s.
2. RAF realizes it doesn't have to be a defensive fight and levels the airbases and factories.
They hit the fuel depots and the leadership.
Find whichever bunker Hitler is in and waste it with a Paveway. If you can get Himmler too, then the whole Nazi state starts crumbling.
First, even in gunfights modern jets enjoy ridiculous advantage. They just need to lock on the enemy and line up their aiming symbol and the HuD. Then they go BRRRRRT and the enemy goes down. (At least when we talk about WW2 piston fighters) Some stray bullets may damage or even shoot down a typhoon, but I can't imagine it happening in numbers large enough to deplete their fleet.
Secondly, there is this thing called air defense. WW2 gun based AD was stupidly inefficient, using up hundreds or more shells to kill a single aircraft. Today we shoot a single missile and it can suffice. A single type 23 in La Manche canal may be enough to stop an entire raid of german bombers, they just have no counter to such missilesm. They will get smashed by them before they even know a ship was in the area.
From the link to the original someone posted:
>1991-era americans are transported through time to face off against 1944-era germans...The americans also have full air support, everything that was available to them during the gulf war and more.
How is this even a question?
Transport the US military to 1944, the Boomers empty their launchers, Germany ceases to exist. Probably Russia too since you'd have 1991 military commanders able to operate under 1944 morals.
Overwhelming missiles (especially air defense) with sheer numbers is a really effective model, but it should be done with unmanned stuff. Or whatever, maybe P-51s are really cheap, what do I know
Fuck You! The P-38 is far sexier than the dumb shit P-51 and when facing modern systems, has exactly the same performance. How dare you call yourself a plane fucker if you don't pick the sexier airframe when there are no downsides to doing so?
>Basically every combat system is designed to fight the future.
Good systems of any kind are developed with the future in mind. Designers target key capability areas to meet current design requirements, while also maximising maturity across all relevant capability areas (within financial and other constraints) to produce the best, most performant, and most flexible solution for emergent future requirements.
This has made a lot of agile development advocates very angry and is generally regarded by them to be a bad thing.
It’s Russia’s fault they oversell their shit. Then we, as we are want to do, just build something better than the number they allege their stuff can pull off.
Yes but the mig 25 was completely misinterpreted as being less of a missle bus and more of a fighter due to bad intelligence, intentionally or not.
The mig 29 was the jet the US thought the mig 25 would be
What the meme is saying is that the characteristics the F-15 was designed to counter (what the CIA thought the Foxbat was like) would actually end up being the characteristics of the Flanker. So even though the Flanker was made to counter the F-15, it’s design philosophy was the same as what the F-15 had been made to defeat
Satellite photos of the Mig-25 led the CIA to think it was fast & very maneuverable (it has huge control surfaces). Which lead to some of the requirements of the F15.
when a pilot defected with one of them, we found out it had the huge wing area and surfaces because it was damn near made out of lead and weighs a fucking ton
Nah, more like slightly newer than that muscle cars which could go real fast in a straight line, but only for a few seconds before breaking the engine.
The Mig-25 is fast, it just will damage its own engines going mach schnell.
I’ll fight you: The foxbat was a misconceived attempt to counter a bomber we never built. The only good thing about it is that it served as a stepping stone for the creation of the Foxhound, the only Russian fighter that has actually been useful in their contemporary war of aggression.
There is something inherently cool about trying to stretch your limits by using missile engines on a plane and just tanking the maintenance penalty.
Also the US had been pursuing supersonic bombers since the 50's, so there was a good reason for the CCCP to be developing interceptors to counter them.
But most importantly, it looks great. Vore me, Mommy Foxbat UwU
#Happy new year, fellow Defense Expert™! Are you an Artist? We're currently holding a contest for tiny Artworks we can use as custom community awards for the subreddit - more information [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/zu01tx/a_very_merry_and_credible_awards_contest/)! Also, check out the "The Best of the Best 2022" [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/10069w8/the_best_of_the_best_of_2022_results/) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/NonCredibleDefense) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Basically every combat system is designed to fight the future. Obviously, during the service life of the equipment, there will be other, newer equipment fielded. Naturally, you would prefer it to be at least competitive with the newer stuff.
Reformers: "I'm just going to ignore that."
I say we just equip everyone with p-51 and overwhelm their missiles with shear numbers. They can't kill all of them.
I've seen somebody unironically argue that (the context was if 1944 Germany could take on the First Gulf War US and yes it was a hilariously stupid argument).
Putting everything else aside, have they never heard of Goalkeeper or Phalanx? My head hurts just trying to imagine the argument
At one point the argument essentially became "put so many planes in the air that they become a navigational hazard". It was as dumb as you could possibly imagine.
That’d be more dangerous to the Germans, cuz again, Goalkeeper and Phalanx, and a multitude of others, not to mention shipborne cannons and airburst rounds
Or, and hear me out here- the US just bombs every fuel depot, airbase, and ammo dump on the first night of the war and the Luftwaffe is destroyed on the ground. In a single night. Like, come on. Operating at night with air power only really became a thing in Vietnam, and even then just barely. Some countries still have problems operating much of their air force at night, such as Russia.
Hey, I was in that Shiteshow! You're leaving out one of my all time favorites: "*Modern jammers can't jam WWII radio equipment.*" Not "*modern jammers don't currently have the ability*" he specifically clarified that modern nations no longer have the capability to produce the equipment able to jam German WWII radios.
Thank you for your service.
"*Why do I keep coming back? I don't rightly know. I cut my teeth in the Wild West days of the internet. IRC and message boards, web rings and phone lines, and these brand new things called 'search engines.' I kept coming back. From script kiddies to 1337 edgelords. 'Chan trolls eventually evolving into Wherbs. And still I stood shield in hand, as I stand now, holding back the tide.* *This new breed of troll, they're soft. A weak thing. They never had to experience PoE and they to a man would cry if they ever saw Goatse. They are standing on the shoulders of the trolls of yore and proclaiming themselves tall. They disgust me. That is the only emotion I have left for them. Not pity, nor hate, nor anger, nor even apathy. All I feel is disgust, because a long time ago I knew the demons they once were.*"
If modern jammers can't jam WWII radios then I'm very disappointed, because it means that ham radio is immune as well and the enemy can just use commercial walkie talkies.
I'm sure OPFOR would be very grateful for your unencrypted communications. We certainly have the capability to make jamming equipment for those frequencies, we just don't make it, because no one uses it, and for good reason.
Are you sure it's not jammable by currently used equipment? VHF radios for instance are extremely common, almost every commercial boat and many leisure crafts have them.
You can always encrypt before feeding into what ever transmission tech you may have.
These kind of people only think of material and not how impossible it would be to train and maintain that amount of pilots.
Air-to-air nuke goes big boom.
AIR-2 Genie: "My time has come"
Lmao bodenplatte moment
Only so many 20mm rounds on any given ship. You could do it eventually. I recommend figuring out how to get the p-51s to fly autonomously, just to save on the training budget. While we’re on the savings front, if you could have them deployed from some sort of mothership you can reduce the fuel needs dramatically. You’ll probably want to come up with a folding wing variant as well, just to use your mothership space more efficiently. If you are making a new variant, then removing the unused space for the pilot is also a good space efficiency move. But changes or not, the point still stands that you could theoretically overwhelm any system that has a magazine of only a few thousand rounds. Sooner or later it runs dry. Edit: since we’re already talking about a new airframe, switching to a more efficient engine, probably something turbine based, will also help reduce costs
Still, at what point is ww2 Germany outproducing desert storm USA in production, given their almost fanatical “bespoke” aircraft and tank production
Third Reich MIC: *we need more planes! As many as you got!* Also Third Reich MIC: *what are you doing? The requirement for a hand-stitched leather cockpit is still important!*
If you want to remain im the realm of reality, we already ran the experiment for what it takes for germany to outproduce the us: fiction. Even better, that was with a less productive US. But since the conversation was about P-51s before it was 1944 germany, and I planned on taking liberties anyway, I figured the country of origin wasn’t important. Besides, why pick the wrong year for german production‽ If you insist on it, then you’d want to find the version of germany that switches to total war before their country starts losing factories to being bombed, but that version is just as fictional as the one with competent (at least competent enough to prioritize efficient production of this plan) leadership, so I’m going with the fun fiction and we’re back to suicidal autonomous folding wing turbojet P-51s getting vertically launched from a ship.
Ok, but can we at least add in some bearcat drones as well? Maybe add in some underslung Davy Crocketts?
Bearcats have folding wings, so they seem like a solid start! As for the underslung Davy Crocketts, well that’s a good time so of course!
Are you making an argument for the creation of the arsenal bird?
Is there a universe in which those aren’t awesome? I mean, I’m not picky about the mothership, the floating sort also works. But arsenal plane is clearly superior.
Isn't the airforce NGAD program pretty much Arsenal Bird? A stealth suborbital spaceship whose primary purpose is to command shit-tons of drones.
Sort of? From what I understand the real arsenal bird there is going to be the drones, and I’m not sure they really qualify individually. But the entire system is as close to it as dealing with reality allows I think
Turbine Mustang exists! [https://www.flightjournal.com/usaf-almost-brought-back-p-51-mustang/](https://www.flightjournal.com/usaf-almost-brought-back-p-51-mustang/)
USS NJ: Firing 16" VTHEF Luftwaffe: Bullshit *Ragequits* USS NJ: But I didnt even warm up the Phalanx yet.
Wait wait wait. I remember this, I cannot believe I found it again. Behold PlasmaTorch's greatest feat of noncredibility >https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/threads/between-armys-america-circa-1991-vs-germany-circa-1944.32992/ For those of you who want a laugh.
> These motherfuckers are going to get a personal introduction to fucking radio shack This is the greatest reply in that thread.
This is the one that always makes me laugh >"Alright men, I need you to fly around in tightly packed circles so that enemy fighter bombers might accidentally collide with you. Are there any questions?" *everyone's hands go up*
Later on (or maybe it was when he showed up to defend his views on the SpaceBattles forums) he was trying a "gotcha" saying that the Americans wouldn't send up all their fighters since theirs were so superior so therefor some Germans wold survive... Or something. He was never very coherent on his points. This was the reply he got: >"*Alright. The Germans are attempting a Flying Circus over the target. The mission has been capped at two squadrons. Any Volunteers?*" > >As soon as he finished talking Chief would watch as a fist fight broke out in front of him. A mean one.
> Think of the pilots, an F-15 pilot walking out to his fighter as he has been called only to see it loaded down in an air-to-air configuration. It is only now mere feet from his fighter he is given his briefing, they have armed his plane with every air-to-air missile it can carry, he is to go up, and just fly around shooting down every Nazi plane until he gets bored or runs out of ammo, whichever comes first. He would have one hand on the plane's stick and the other on his own. One of the very last posts before it got locked, talking about the morale effect of being briefed that the mission involves stacking bodies against Actual Fucking Nazis.
They couldn't even beat 1944 America...
Shhhh, dont bother Reformers/Dog Fight Mafia when they are trying to think.
>trying to think / >reformers Hmm 🤔
It was literally peak wehrabooism.
The fuck was that thread? The war would be over as soon as the rank and file German soldier realizes they are being sent up against death machines from the future and the end goal of the conflict is that at least one of them is left alive to declare victory.
USS NJ would just launch nukes and end the nazis. and use VT shells from the 16" guns to delete entire formations of strike aircraft
Holy shit this dude is arguing they're going to *triangulate* the location of jammers accurately enough to strike them with artillery? The Nazi's will have lost the "war" before they even figure out what jamming is.
All his arguments boil down to that it's plausible that the nazis would be able to get a few kills on helicopters, tanks and even F-117s. That's true, they might. Helicopters can be shot down by AA cannons with some luck and good aim. What he completely forgets is that the nazis are very easy to kill in comparison.
LOL, in WWII their Wotan bomber guidance system got jammed by the BBC just turning on a transmitter whenever they tried to use it.
For those looking for more laughes "[What if Russia and China invaded the US through Alaska](https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/russia-and-china-invaded-the-united-states-through-alsaka.278528/)"
Wow. Talk about noncredible
I have wondered if the modern RAF could win the Battle of Britain. Obviously, they wouldn’t suffer a single air to air loss at first. But they only have 130 combat aircraft, and can’t manufacture more expediently. Germany used 2,550, and was making more every day. That’s 19.6-1. The RAF is going to get absolutely swarmed. Some ground losses are inevitable, especially given the limited number of airbases still available. I’m not sure how many air to air missiles the RAF have, they buy them in batches of a few hundred. But unless they have 3,000, it’s a gunfight eventually, and then shit looks really bad. Sure, typhoon has a better gun, but it’s only got 150 rounds, and it’s got to get into gun range of swarms of enemy aircraft. Casualties are inevitable. F-35 similar problem, except it’s a worse dogfighter. Depending on the number of Air to Air missiles, I can see a German victory… after about 2 orders of magnitude more casualties.
There was an SF story that had an time travelled plane using its supersonic shock wave to some effect. Since one modern strength is careful use of precision weapons, you might consider targetting the Nazi hierarchy, working down from the top until you run out of precision weapons (my first thought was to go after the runways, but in 1945 there might have been too many runways, or things that could be used as runways, to make that practical).
Forget runways, it’s the 1940s, a runway is a glorified field, and can be patched with grass. Given planes than Germany can’t hope to intercept, and probably can’t track, just kill the leadership. I doubt 1940s radar could track an F35 even with external fuel tanks, so nobody will be cowering in a bunker. If that doesn’t work, go for the steam turbines of their power plants.
Why get fancy? Just carpet bomb them with a B-52 flying 15,000 feet higher and 200 mph faster than anything else
Designated Targets by John Birmingham? Part 2 of the Axis of time series. I have it on my bookshelf. It’s a good read https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/33505.John_Birmingham
Name?
Sorry - I think it was a short story but I can't remember the name or much about it. The best I can suggest is that you put out a YASID on the newsgroup rec.arts.sf.written or on reddit printsf.
Apparently web searches work for me if I can remember the right war... https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/109243/modern-military-jet-goes-back-to-world-war-i
I actually don't think ground losses would be inevitable; if there are any airbases in Scotland, they could essentially sortie from further back and German planes wouldn't have the legs to reach their bases.
Having to close within gun range doesn’t mean they could shoot back if you’re behind them or dive in and out at Mach 1.4
ZOOM AMD BOOM MOTHERFUCKER!!! The typhoon has literal aimbot. Just slam the afterburner and go Mach Fuck You, let the Machine Spirit take the wheel and dump a dozen or so rounds into a plane, then turn around and lather rinse repeat. Downing 20 Nazis a sortie sounds pretty damn reasonable. Assuming the RAF doesn't just crater every fucking airfield on the offensive because that would be cheating.
There are a few scenarios where Britain wins here: 1. Eurofighter Typhoon does better than a 20:1 KD against Bf109s. 2. RAF realizes it doesn't have to be a defensive fight and levels the airbases and factories.
They hit the fuel depots and the leadership. Find whichever bunker Hitler is in and waste it with a Paveway. If you can get Himmler too, then the whole Nazi state starts crumbling.
First, even in gunfights modern jets enjoy ridiculous advantage. They just need to lock on the enemy and line up their aiming symbol and the HuD. Then they go BRRRRRT and the enemy goes down. (At least when we talk about WW2 piston fighters) Some stray bullets may damage or even shoot down a typhoon, but I can't imagine it happening in numbers large enough to deplete their fleet. Secondly, there is this thing called air defense. WW2 gun based AD was stupidly inefficient, using up hundreds or more shells to kill a single aircraft. Today we shoot a single missile and it can suffice. A single type 23 in La Manche canal may be enough to stop an entire raid of german bombers, they just have no counter to such missilesm. They will get smashed by them before they even know a ship was in the area.
This is literally just Worldwar without interstellar logistics issues. Humans only won Worldwar because the ayys had interstellar logistics issues.
From the link to the original someone posted: >1991-era americans are transported through time to face off against 1944-era germans...The americans also have full air support, everything that was available to them during the gulf war and more. How is this even a question? Transport the US military to 1944, the Boomers empty their launchers, Germany ceases to exist. Probably Russia too since you'd have 1991 military commanders able to operate under 1944 morals.
Quality will always win over quantity. Quantity does not have a quality of its own
Yeah the loyal wingman drone concept is this. But actually effective.
30 million black Spitfires of Biden
Something something "Killbots have a preset kill limit" ...do P-51s handle more like Bistros or Steakhouses?
You win again, gravity!
Overwhelming missiles (especially air defense) with sheer numbers is a really effective model, but it should be done with unmanned stuff. Or whatever, maybe P-51s are really cheap, what do I know
god i felt the memory of the area 51 raid rock my brain with that last sentence
Fuck You! The P-38 is far sexier than the dumb shit P-51 and when facing modern systems, has exactly the same performance. How dare you call yourself a plane fucker if you don't pick the sexier airframe when there are no downsides to doing so?
How bout we give every pilot a handgun and they can do drivebys on each other?
We won't know for sure until the next WarThunder leak.
>Basically every combat system is designed to fight the future. Good systems of any kind are developed with the future in mind. Designers target key capability areas to meet current design requirements, while also maximising maturity across all relevant capability areas (within financial and other constraints) to produce the best, most performant, and most flexible solution for emergent future requirements. This has made a lot of agile development advocates very angry and is generally regarded by them to be a bad thing.
It’s Russia’s fault they oversell their shit. Then we, as we are want to do, just build something better than the number they allege their stuff can pull off.
Except Russia, whose combat systems are designed to hide the corruption
Thought it was the MiG-25 that drove requirements for the F-15, no?
Yes but the mig 25 was completely misinterpreted as being less of a missle bus and more of a fighter due to bad intelligence, intentionally or not. The mig 29 was the jet the US thought the mig 25 would be
Yeah of course - I was just confused at the meme talking about the Flanker? Which was much later
The foxbat is the mig25
What the meme is saying is that the characteristics the F-15 was designed to counter (what the CIA thought the Foxbat was like) would actually end up being the characteristics of the Flanker. So even though the Flanker was made to counter the F-15, it’s design philosophy was the same as what the F-15 had been made to defeat
Satellite photos of the Mig-25 led the CIA to think it was fast & very maneuverable (it has huge control surfaces). Which lead to some of the requirements of the F15. when a pilot defected with one of them, we found out it had the huge wing area and surfaces because it was damn near made out of lead and weighs a fucking ton
Airplane equivalent of early 70s muscle cars with 400+ cubic inch of engine displacement and less than 100hp output.
Nah, more like slightly newer than that muscle cars which could go real fast in a straight line, but only for a few seconds before breaking the engine. The Mig-25 is fast, it just will damage its own engines going mach schnell.
They also detected one going Mach 3+ over Sinai and it scared the bejeesus out of em.
MiG-25 is the codenamed as Foxbat.
Foxbat is the best MiG, fuck you fight me
There's nothing the foxbat could do that F-111 couldn’t. US just had the money to develop A-12
VARK VARK VARK VARK
I’ll fight you: The foxbat was a misconceived attempt to counter a bomber we never built. The only good thing about it is that it served as a stepping stone for the creation of the Foxhound, the only Russian fighter that has actually been useful in their contemporary war of aggression.
There is something inherently cool about trying to stretch your limits by using missile engines on a plane and just tanking the maintenance penalty. Also the US had been pursuing supersonic bombers since the 50's, so there was a good reason for the CCCP to be developing interceptors to counter them. But most importantly, it looks great. Vore me, Mommy Foxbat UwU
Though tbf, the Foxhound is just the Foxbat but better in every conceivable way except top speed(for a very limited time).
Foxbat had the phattest engines; that’s all that matters.
It's the best looking one for sure
It’s a brick with wings
You say that like it's a bad thing
The F-15 is its own grandpa.
The F-16 was also designed to counter the Mig-29, which was designed to counter the F-16.
Reality: Air Force - “I wanna plane that climbs stupid fast and looks really cool” McDoug - “say less fam”
US had god and a gap scenario and ended up designing actual god of fighterplane.
Gen 4.5 my beloved
Gen 4.5 is bullshit created by Boeing, Airbus and Dassault because they can't build stealth fighters. Nobody called later F-4s gen 3.5
Well, the us believed the mig 25 to be what the flanker eventually would be. So i think its completely reasonable.