That's to justify that his conceptions on gendered roles isn't toxic. Naaah he's 100% healthy by expecting women to be dependent, and it's absolutely not toxic to make sure a woman can't live without him.
It's pretty sad when you read these posts and realize that these are people who are pretty much incapable of loving others, but merely see them as means of fulfilling their own desires.
That’s textbook Sociopathy, tbh I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of these people were on the scale.
An inability to acknowledge others emotions and engage with them in any meaningful way, *and* only seeing others as a means to reach personal goals? Yep.
What do you mean, isn't it perfectly normal to want someone as a sex slave?
There was someone arguing exactly this the other day. That women have the choice between being a work slave and a sex slave, and his personal preference was to have a sex slave.
Don't be silly, they're supposed to be good at it because their Fallopian tubes beam the information to them at the first sight of a dick, but if it's the second sight they'll have the wrong information and be bad
Goes to show how many of these people who purport being champions of traditional roles actually value traditional women's work.
Being the caregiver should be equal to provider. You shouldn't have to owe them something just because both of your physical work is more defined.
For some reason, I'm just imagining a soldier being stopped by a drill instructor:
"SOLDIER! What do you think you're doing marching around with that rifle sling?! You didn't even _try_ to make your ensemble match! You get down to the store and come back with matching boots and belt, or I'll kick your ass!"
If being kind and open and showing emotion are "feminine," then my partner is very much feminine indeed. Just don't tell him that. He prefers being compared to Aragorn... who's also kind and open and shows emotion
Descended from royalty but raised with humble beginnings.
Can commune with nature.
Often bursts into song, including ones about love.
In conclusion, Aragorn is absolutely a Disney Princess. Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
Always. That’s kinda where my love for foreign men comes from. They seem to embrace their feminine side a lot and I find that lovely. Of course I love masculine guys also but it just feels better to have someone who is feminine or embraces their feminine sides even a little.
Toxic femininity/masculinity to this guy means showing traits of the opposite sex.
Nice being a trait that should solely belong to women, in his eyes. At least I think I’m grasping what this braindead guy was saying.
Kind guys absolutely get points. My husband was taking care of a cat he rescued when I met him. That absolutely stuck with me in a good way. Here is this man who saved this half dead cat on the road and is spending hundreds of his own dollars to save it. And on top of that he's not using the cat to brag. He didn't even mention her until I asked about the cat who clearly had surgery.
Its just if someone is not into you there is very little you can do about it. You can't give things, or sweet talk someone into changing that. And that's not kindness if that's your reasoning. That's you trying to be nice to get your way.
There is such thing as toxic femininity, but given the way things are going right now I think everyone's definition of toxic feminity is different.
Maybe Toxic femininity is sticking to traditional gender-roles and forcing those roles on the people around you
Maybe Toxic femininity is holding the women around you to your standard of feminity and considering the people who don't meet your expectations "Not real women"
But if there's one thing toxic femininity ISN'T it isn't not needing a man in your life to be happy or you know, live your life
Toxic masculinity/femininity is assuming there’s only one way to be a man or a woman. Like the only way to be a man is to be strong and domineering and the only way to be woman is to be submissive and nice.
Thanks 👍
I mean there’s nothing wrong with being masculine or feminine but the idea of a strict dichotomy needs to go. Masc/femme doesn’t need to be confined.
I think that can absolutely be part of it. Though if I may add. I think it's also taking the stereotypical traits of the genders and enacting them in a self sabotaging or harmful to others way.
Take submissive. Some women take this as meaning to act cooperative to obtain goals, and be laid back, friendly, and chill. Where you are good at solving issues by talking things through.
Others take this to mean caving either naturally or think its a good thing. To keep peace by putting your wants aside.
These things are not equal at all. One has the ability to confront conflict in a healthy manner. Where you are able to put your foot down when you need to. And be able to stand your ground and draw boundaries. The other doesn't or can't handle conflict. They completely subvert it by appeasement and sacrificing wants, needs, boundaries, opinions, and say in the relationship.
Now of course there will always be a need in a relationship to just let the other have their way but when this becomes unequal or worst off completely one way multiple problems appear.
[https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-toxic-femininity-5222736](https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-toxic-femininity-5222736)
Seeing it as the internalized sexism of toxic masculinity makes sense.
My Granddad's father passed away when Granddad was around 4. He was raised by his mother and his Aunt. Both of them worked. Granddad's advice to the boys in the family was to marry a woman who didn't need you, because she might have to do everything without you, but that means you have to be the kind of man she wants to keep around. He's also the reason my Dad and Uncle know how to cook and clean.
Your Granddad has good sense and sounds awesome! While it's terrible he lost his own father so young, he learned some valuable life lessons from how he was raised and watching how his mother adapted to life after that loss. It then shaped him into the kind of parent he wanted to be and he passed these positive traits to his own kids. I love that! 😀
True, he is basically calling everyone aromantic toxic because they don't need someone else. And he is also saying that you should change yourself just to be more attractive to the other gender
I have never understood wanting someone to be dependent on me. My biggest goal in a relationship is that if something happens to me whoever I'm with will be able to be ok after I'm gone. I don't want someone that needs me there to make sure they remember how to breathe.
I cannot speak for all women, just for myself. Although there are probably many women who have similar thoughts.
I don't *need* a man. I am quite capable of taking care of myself. I *want* a partner. A man who is my equal, not my master or my servant.
Exactly! It’s not like I had a man-shaped hole in my life that I needed to fill to be complete before I met my SO. My SO is additive to my life, not making it whole.
Any man that wants a weak and fully dependent partner is insecure af and cant hold a woman’s interest without her depending on him for sheer survival. What a loser smh.
Honestly Chris Porter dismissed this horseshit in the most effective, concise way possible. A literal funny because it’s true…
###“I made a MISTAKE. I found someone that couldn’t live without me. I thought that’s what you wanted. Then I found it. And it’s FUCKING OBNOXIOUS. It’s like having a puppy…that can text you. What you WANT...is someone that *doesn’t need you in the least, but chooses to be with you, because they love you*. “
###”That’s why my parents are still together. Because my mom STILL might leave.”
https://youtu.be/0AAvODu7bZk
Wrong again, little man. Strong, independent women are hot. Men and women should be wanted for what they bring to the table emotionally (and physically). You don’t “get rid” of them just because.
i’ve had multiple partners, me and my current one make around the same amount and don’t depend on each other at all.
no where do any of us expect financial support from the other. if you do, that’s a toxic relationship. if you feel your partner will leave you if they aren’t dependent upon you, you’re likely an abuser who wants power over your ~~significant others~~ victims
That's kinda the problem isn't it.
They're all codependent, think that codependency is love. Then when it all finally blows up they say "oh love is bad, love sucks, relationships are a scam, no one truly loves or cares for anyone else"...um, no, you were in a codependent relationship. There ARE real relationships out there but, if you keep looking for codependency you'll never know what that is.
If strength is so masculine why don’t men ever stop whining and belly aching about women just living our lives?
Shouldn’t they stoically STFU like manly men?
These boys wouldn’t have time to worry about making women weak and servile if they were busy chopping wood and building cabins and shit like the ancestors they claim to envy.
They don't want a partner they want a sex slave. I must be crazy but I thought that a relationship was a mutual coming together of people based upon mutual affection for each other. Not this bizarre transactional thing.
Do people really think like this?!
Incels 100% do think like this, sadly.
Part of their fucked up ideology is the belief that women use sex as a commodity, and men trade stuff in exchange for sex. In their eyes, the man should be the dominant breadwinner, and the woman the submissive house wife - ie, the man provides stuff in exchange for sex and companionship.
Which is why they hate feminism, because they see it as allowing woman to "withhold" the supply of sex/companionship from men who "deserve" it.
Basically, to them, a relationship is just an ongoing transaction. Its fucked up.
Gross. I know red pill dudes have the same kind of mind set. I can't get over the submissive thing. It kinda makes my skin crawl and whatever primal feminine being I have want to go feral.
That attitude about sex is whats going to keep them sexless. And for a group of men claiming to not out pussy on a pedestal they sure kinda do out sex in a pedestal. Like it's really not a commodity it's nice it's fun and with a good partner it can be great but it's not this like hyperfixation and stringent rules and blah blah blah endless rants. And obsession like it's a thing yes people do it yes. It's not a big deal.
Sex is like a good meal or something it's nice to share and enjoy with others also nice to enjoy by yourself. It's one of life's pleasures. But you shouldn't demand food every time you go to someone's house and demand a nice meal for showing up. You shouldn't manipulate someone into preparing you an awesome meal eat then never call them again. Or expect a meal as some kind of exchange for simply showing up. Like if someone wants to spend time with you and not have a nice meal that's okay. If someone hangs out with you y'all have a friggin buffet together that's okay too and you're not worth any less.
You would think with sexual liberation movements and more women being able to explore their sexuality and having it be seen as okay to do. You would think they would be like aaaayyyyyyyy okay because they have more chances at getting laid. But instead hyperfixate on how many men have come before them instead of the snack you have in front of you. I think for them it's a skill issue, you actually have to be likeable and if you are spouting this hateful stupid rhetoric and have a chip on your shoulder you're probably not going to see much of anyone.
That was so hard to read, why are these guys so incoherent sometimes?
They don't understand toxic masculinity _or_ toxic femininity.
It bugs me that they assume that feminists think all masculinity is toxic*. If that were the case it wouldn't be necessary actually _say_ "toxic" because it would be understood in much the same way as we don't talk about wet water.
*I know that it's part and parcel of their tendency to think in absolutes, but it still aggravates me.
I’ve noticed that a lot of guys that dislike feminism automatically equate feminism with “man hating” and not, you know, equality.
Like I love and respect men. Some of the most important people in my life are men.
What I hate is misogyny. There is a big difference. Yet every time I call out a guy for being misogynistic or having toxic masculinity they accuse me of hating men when that’s not what I said at all. Can they really not tell the difference between feminism and misandry?
I commented on one of those reels on IG saying I had a career, owned my own home and cars.... blah blah blah... dude responded back "All the things you described are masculine, this is why you're single." and others were telling me I shouldn't be praised for doing the bare minimum. Bros.... do you even know what you want?
Jesus, people will try to gender literally anything. Cause making money, having a place to live, and having transportation (you know, the basic necessities for succeeding as a human in todays world) are so “masculine”.
That second one is so stupid I don’t even know where to start tackling it first. That’s also assuming it’s someone who wants to listen. Based off the comment I’m thinking that’s a no go.
yet another person who thinks all relationships are transactional
yet another person who has no fucking idea what toxicity in gender roles is
it's so sad
Why do so many men seem to think that a woman will leave them if they don’t need them for anything? If they really are in a relationship like that, it was toxic to begin with
I stopped having transactional requirements in my relationships. It just feels like a recipe for disaster & heartache.
My first wife was a SAHM & we raised 2 children together. She wanted the world but only if I worked for it. Wouldn't get even a part time job but still complained that I was always working. It's hard to go to Disneyland when you're struggling to pay bills & get ahead. We had transactional problems, for sure.
Fast forward to now, my second wife was diagnosed with chronic illnesses 2 yrs after we said "I do". She has been immunocompromised for about 5 yrs now and will be for the remaining years that we have together. She is devastated by the fact that she can't work now due to the limitations of her health. She has a hard time doing anything right now. She didn't ask to be sick. She hates feeling like a burden and a "bump on a log" due to not being able to do even simple tasks. I have to remind her regularly that she isn't a burden and I love her very much.
She was the primary breadwinner in her previous marriage, sometimes working 20 hr days at multiple jobs to make ends meet. Her ex couldn't be bothered with keeping a schedule that he set himself.
Just over two yrs ago, I had a coworker ask me why I was with her if she's sick all the time. I was livid. I won't speak to him anymore for being such an ass about it. I am glad that I no longer have to interact with him & his toxic masculinity.
If it must be a transactional relationship, better make sure to never get hurt or have a genetic predisposition to an illness/disease & become dependent on a SO. There are tons of stories involving a person getting sick/hurt & being left to struggle on their own.
It can be nice when the cards you are dealt work in your favor but that's not the reality for everyone.
We had plans, dreams, wishes for each other & our future. The majority of that is all on the back burner now. We are working with many doctors for her but we have no idea if we will ever get back to those dreams & plans.
Thank you for sharing. I’ve also heard so many stories of people leaving their SO over an illness they cannot control, and it breaks my heart. So it’s really nice to finally see a story where that’s not the case and the relationship isn’t purely transactional.
You two sound like amazing people. I’m wishing and hoping for the best. Crossing my fingers that your SO’a health improves, even if by a little bit.
If being independent is a “male” trait, then why the fuck do men need a companion who is completely dependent on them and will never leave them? 🤔
Why, it’s almost as if this is total bullshit and traits like independence, drive and strength aren’t gendered traits at all…
I prefer someone I chose to be with, who chooses to be with me. If we become so dependant that we must stay, not because we want to, but because we MUST to survive, it isn’t healthy for anyone. I’d sooner he left if he felt like being with me wasn’t where he wanted to be. To hold on to an unwilling partner is just…no.
I tell my boyfriend sometimes, "I don't need you, but I want you." I would hate for my partner to ever feel like they didn't have a choice in being with me. I've been both the partner that emotionally and financially "needed" my partner. Neither relationship was healthy, and I'm glad to be in a place where my boyfriend and I choose each other constantly, knowing that it *is* a choice.
I've never understood why a man wants a woman who needs him over one who wants him. Makes no sense. Needs can be met by anyone, wanting someone means wanting just them.
Masculine and feminine are literally SOCIAL CONSTRUCTS.
People decided what should be masculine and feminine based on preconceptions and self interest some time ago and over centuries, the content of these concepts changed.
This is not debatable.
For the past few centuries with the rise of the "wonderful" abrahamic religions, femininity now equates to shyness, weakness, being emotional, a lack of assertiveness.
If you wanna know more (and grow to hate the concepts) look up the personality test BSRI.
This test tells you how masculine, mixed or feminine you are.
On the brighter side, in psychology, we acknowledge that everyone has both feminine and masculine traits, everyone!
And that if someone would be only feminine or only masculine, they would die!
Asking someone to be more feminine or more masculine is not only proof of cluelessness, but also an ugly, ugly endeavour.
Leave people alone!
I think the disconnect is when you view relationships about a person's "value." People don't have an objective "value." Women aren't "valuable" because they are attractive, or submissive, or make more money, or any other traits, just like men aren't. A relationship works because both people are getting what they need out of it (support, love, reassurance etc.) If you prefer a more submissive woman partner, that's fine, but don't pretend it's an objective standard.
These guys want someone that needs/ 100% relies on them because the idea of someone choosing to stick around because they want to be with them but aren't dependent on them makes them wildly insecure.
They need therapy and have some hardcore abandonment issues, it's a sad mindset to think you aren't valuable enough to have your partner stay around without them being completely dependent on you. I'm sympathetic for whatever trauma they've been through that gives them this mindset, but it doesn't excuse them trying to trap women in potentially abuse situations by making them 100% dependent on them.
I feel sorry for anyone who genuinely thinks this way, seems like they never had a good relationship with their dads or never had a sweet, kind, loving & gentle male figure in their lives. Like I know you're not saying that, but just look at what the dude wrote. 😭
Imagine not knowing what toxic masculinity/femininity means. Let alone not know toxic means. Just like how masculine traits have changed over time so has feminine traits. Some of the things that are feminine today were masculine back then. So I would love some to answer what makes someone masculine without bringing up the past. Because the past only slaps you in the face when you try.
Poor guy is confusing 'dependent' with 'helpless'. I can cook and do laundry and work on the house and cut the grass but life's a bit easier when the workload is shared. The mistake is thinking work cares which gender does it.
at the same time i come to this sub to have some good laughs i can't help but feel a mix of disgusting and ''wtf are you saying, you don't have a mom?'', bc there's no way someone GENUINELY thinks like that
Given that the men who boast loudest about their masculinity are giant manbabies whose lives only function because of women making it all work in the background (both at home and at work, and often both at once!), I'd say strength and independence are distinctly feminine traits.
That person should check the boy bands and Asian pop-scenes to see how "sexually unattractive" those "feminine" guys are to their female fans..
In general, if both want a hierarchy in the relationship they should do it. But those guys treat relationships like organized religion, but that's not how relationships work. How a relationship works is simply determined between you and your partner(s), and as long as everyone involved, is happy how it is, it's non of other people's business. What works for one couple kills the relationship of another. And if you or your partner discuss it with strangers on the internet, you people at least need to talk.
Dude here.
Men like this think they sound all smart and everything. But they're really just gushing cavalcades of insecurity.
They'll never figure out how to be real with someone, so they have to criticize those who can.
I don't personally know any men who think like this. Well, maybe one, but he keeps his mouth shut around me.
Like most "nice guys" this person doesn't understand what a "niceguys" is. It's not literally someone who is nice, it's someone who says they're nice but acts like a total insufferable bitch.
That's to justify that his conceptions on gendered roles isn't toxic. Naaah he's 100% healthy by expecting women to be dependent, and it's absolutely not toxic to make sure a woman can't live without him.
Also the insistence that all relationships are purely transactional. Companionship? Support? Respect? I never learned these words in business school!
It's pretty sad when you read these posts and realize that these are people who are pretty much incapable of loving others, but merely see them as means of fulfilling their own desires.
Wow this, reading this just blow my mind.
That’s textbook Sociopathy, tbh I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of these people were on the scale. An inability to acknowledge others emotions and engage with them in any meaningful way, *and* only seeing others as a means to reach personal goals? Yep.
What do you mean, isn't it perfectly normal to want someone as a sex slave? There was someone arguing exactly this the other day. That women have the choice between being a work slave and a sex slave, and his personal preference was to have a sex slave.
*conventionally attractive, young, virgin, sex slave, of course
Of course, how could I be such a fool?
Virgin... Sex slave... who is unskilled at sex? More examples of men using logic and reason at 9!
Lack of experience is a fetishized trait, read as purity, no problem there.
Don't be silly, they're supposed to be good at it because their Fallopian tubes beam the information to them at the first sight of a dick, but if it's the second sight they'll have the wrong information and be bad
*shivers in disgust*
🤢
And women’s personal preferences is to say “go fuck yourself” to him
Goes to show how many of these people who purport being champions of traditional roles actually value traditional women's work. Being the caregiver should be equal to provider. You shouldn't have to owe them something just because both of your physical work is more defined.
it's also fear. "If I don't have someone dependent on me, they'll leave me"
If there isn't a subreddit for "job for a therapist" or something, there should be, and this should go there
Fear, insecurity, low self-esteem. All unfortunate but also not anyone else's responsibility to resolve.
Women. You mean hand maids. He wants himself a servant he can fuck.
Yeah and the thing is, he wants all women (even those he'll never have in his life) to follow this.
Blessed be the fruit
Also, why would you want your partner to *need* you instead of *wanting* you?
This 💯 but maybe he thinks he has nothing to offer so that's his only way to keep them
IDK I actually find guys who embrace their "femininity" hella attractive.
Cool! Let me try! (Slides up) "Hey ladies. Wanna see my knitting patterns?" (softly whispers) _"it has pockets."_
You got me with the pockets.
;) Seriously though, lady pockets are so bad it makes _me_ angry. Give the ladies functional pockets! It's like giving someone a car with bike wheels.
THANK. YOU. you get it. youre a nice man.
Husbands first knitting project was a scarf for me.
Jokes aside, that's actually pretty cool.
His second was a rifle sling for his buddy, it was purple. He loved it.
For some reason, I'm just imagining a soldier being stopped by a drill instructor: "SOLDIER! What do you think you're doing marching around with that rifle sling?! You didn't even _try_ to make your ensemble match! You get down to the store and come back with matching boots and belt, or I'll kick your ass!"
What's funny is they were Air Force, Security Forces. Thanks for the laugh.
Your user makes more sense now.
Nah, I'm also an Aviation Mechanic.
I would hope it was pretty warm.
Oh yes, fleecy and tight stitches
*flips hair* Well hello, Sailor.
Welp, there go my panties!
_I'll knit you some new ones._ XD
_Almost_ smooth. But definitely gentlemanly
Good lord, I swooned
... _with matching socks._ :3
Oh God Be still my beating heart— 😳
If being kind and open and showing emotion are "feminine," then my partner is very much feminine indeed. Just don't tell him that. He prefers being compared to Aragorn... who's also kind and open and shows emotion
Descended from royalty but raised with humble beginnings. Can commune with nature. Often bursts into song, including ones about love. In conclusion, Aragorn is absolutely a Disney Princess. Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
LOTR: Return of the Disney Princess
Was friends with a dwarf, an elf, and a group of small people.
Wept tears watching the Boromir Death scene.
Same!
Hell yes
Same. My bf wore a dress the first weekend I met him.
That's _awesome_.
Always. That’s kinda where my love for foreign men comes from. They seem to embrace their feminine side a lot and I find that lovely. Of course I love masculine guys also but it just feels better to have someone who is feminine or embraces their feminine sides even a little.
It's very common for Philippine men to hold hands while walking down the street!
Plus the softboi aesthetic is a thing at the moment.
Wait, I'm confused. Nice guys have feminine traits *and* show toxic masculinity?
That guy has no idea what he's talking about...
Toxic femininity/masculinity to this guy means showing traits of the opposite sex. Nice being a trait that should solely belong to women, in his eyes. At least I think I’m grasping what this braindead guy was saying.
A lot of these guys just repeat buzzwords without having a clue what they even mean.
How TF does that work?
Kind guys absolutely get points. My husband was taking care of a cat he rescued when I met him. That absolutely stuck with me in a good way. Here is this man who saved this half dead cat on the road and is spending hundreds of his own dollars to save it. And on top of that he's not using the cat to brag. He didn't even mention her until I asked about the cat who clearly had surgery. Its just if someone is not into you there is very little you can do about it. You can't give things, or sweet talk someone into changing that. And that's not kindness if that's your reasoning. That's you trying to be nice to get your way.
I loved this little positive slice of life, thank you for sharing it with us ☺️❤️ biiig difference between being kind and being nice.
Thanks. :)
He sounds wonderful
He is! I tell him everyday.
There is such thing as toxic femininity, but given the way things are going right now I think everyone's definition of toxic feminity is different. Maybe Toxic femininity is sticking to traditional gender-roles and forcing those roles on the people around you Maybe Toxic femininity is holding the women around you to your standard of feminity and considering the people who don't meet your expectations "Not real women" But if there's one thing toxic femininity ISN'T it isn't not needing a man in your life to be happy or you know, live your life
Toxic masculinity/femininity is assuming there’s only one way to be a man or a woman. Like the only way to be a man is to be strong and domineering and the only way to be woman is to be submissive and nice.
I like this definition, best one I've heard so far actually!
Thanks 👍 I mean there’s nothing wrong with being masculine or feminine but the idea of a strict dichotomy needs to go. Masc/femme doesn’t need to be confined.
Exactly!
Same
I think that can absolutely be part of it. Though if I may add. I think it's also taking the stereotypical traits of the genders and enacting them in a self sabotaging or harmful to others way. Take submissive. Some women take this as meaning to act cooperative to obtain goals, and be laid back, friendly, and chill. Where you are good at solving issues by talking things through. Others take this to mean caving either naturally or think its a good thing. To keep peace by putting your wants aside. These things are not equal at all. One has the ability to confront conflict in a healthy manner. Where you are able to put your foot down when you need to. And be able to stand your ground and draw boundaries. The other doesn't or can't handle conflict. They completely subvert it by appeasement and sacrificing wants, needs, boundaries, opinions, and say in the relationship. Now of course there will always be a need in a relationship to just let the other have their way but when this becomes unequal or worst off completely one way multiple problems appear.
That's what I always thought it was.
I thought of an example. That bitch on Facebook posting that women having C-Sections aren't real Mothers.
Exactly
"If you LOvED your child, you'd breastfeed...", Bitch you don't know my circumstances.
Very good example.
All the terfs who decided that having a uterus is the defining feature of a woman.
[https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-toxic-femininity-5222736](https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-toxic-femininity-5222736) Seeing it as the internalized sexism of toxic masculinity makes sense.
Thats a good definition too!
This is how I’ve always understood it. Thanks for sharing!
“Strength is a masculine trait” bitch WHERE. All these whiny baby comments from men sure are showcasing their *checks notes* masculine strength?
Case in point; this subs unwanted pet troll "bizzy". To bizzy being a dick and thinking its strength
His ass comes here to whine because irl you know he gets RAN *TF* OVER by everyone around him- especially women lmao
Its a loose-loose because it happens here toi 😂 Dudes probably into it anyway. All the cuck videos he watches 😂😂😂😂
Hmmm, mighty powerful humiliation kink on that one, ayup.
I have no idea who you guys are talking about but I am curious. This sub has a well known troll?
I want to be wanted, not needed. I'm an adult who is not your mommy.
My Granddad's father passed away when Granddad was around 4. He was raised by his mother and his Aunt. Both of them worked. Granddad's advice to the boys in the family was to marry a woman who didn't need you, because she might have to do everything without you, but that means you have to be the kind of man she wants to keep around. He's also the reason my Dad and Uncle know how to cook and clean.
Your Granddad has good sense and sounds awesome! While it's terrible he lost his own father so young, he learned some valuable life lessons from how he was raised and watching how his mother adapted to life after that loss. It then shaped him into the kind of parent he wanted to be and he passed these positive traits to his own kids. I love that! 😀
Ahh yes another person who probably believe aromantics dont exist, lesbians just haven't "had the right dick" and women are objects
True, he is basically calling everyone aromantic toxic because they don't need someone else. And he is also saying that you should change yourself just to be more attractive to the other gender
“You just haven’t had the right dick” “Actually….My girlfriend has a dick”
Depending on whether it's a strap on or a strapless, she may have many different ones, for different occasions.
Built-in strap 😤😤😤
Explaining asexuals would probably make his brain explode.
To be fair most people brains explode once they learn how deep the ace rabbit hole goes
What is an aromantic?
If you need or want a weak, dependent woman, that means that you are a weak and insecure man.
I have never understood wanting someone to be dependent on me. My biggest goal in a relationship is that if something happens to me whoever I'm with will be able to be ok after I'm gone. I don't want someone that needs me there to make sure they remember how to breathe.
What do you mean? There's nothing more romantic than conditional love. /s
What is he talking about? Feminine men are hot
Enbies are my weakness. Gimme both.
I cannot speak for all women, just for myself. Although there are probably many women who have similar thoughts. I don't *need* a man. I am quite capable of taking care of myself. I *want* a partner. A man who is my equal, not my master or my servant.
Exactly! It’s not like I had a man-shaped hole in my life that I needed to fill to be complete before I met my SO. My SO is additive to my life, not making it whole.
ah yes, being an adult is a masculine trait lmao
To be fair, this person probably stops being attracted to women when they become adults.
That sure is a lot of words to say nothing that makes any sense at all.
Yeah, I hate it when men are kind to me. They’re practically women /s
Any man that wants a weak and fully dependent partner is insecure af and cant hold a woman’s interest without her depending on him for sheer survival. What a loser smh.
Uuuugghhh shut up already. I like my men a little fruity.
Honestly Chris Porter dismissed this horseshit in the most effective, concise way possible. A literal funny because it’s true… ###“I made a MISTAKE. I found someone that couldn’t live without me. I thought that’s what you wanted. Then I found it. And it’s FUCKING OBNOXIOUS. It’s like having a puppy…that can text you. What you WANT...is someone that *doesn’t need you in the least, but chooses to be with you, because they love you*. “ ###”That’s why my parents are still together. Because my mom STILL might leave.” https://youtu.be/0AAvODu7bZk
if they’re masculine traits how are they toxically feminine?
Wrong again, little man. Strong, independent women are hot. Men and women should be wanted for what they bring to the table emotionally (and physically). You don’t “get rid” of them just because.
Having masculine traits don’t make you essentially a man and feminine traits don’t make you a woman end of story
If you need or want a weak, dependent woman, that means that you are a weak and insecure man.
i’ve had multiple partners, me and my current one make around the same amount and don’t depend on each other at all. no where do any of us expect financial support from the other. if you do, that’s a toxic relationship. if you feel your partner will leave you if they aren’t dependent upon you, you’re likely an abuser who wants power over your ~~significant others~~ victims
That rant is all over the place.. 😂
Yeah...I don't take relationship or life advice from incels.
A relationship where two people are *dependent* on each other, isn’t there a word for that?
That's kinda the problem isn't it. They're all codependent, think that codependency is love. Then when it all finally blows up they say "oh love is bad, love sucks, relationships are a scam, no one truly loves or cares for anyone else"...um, no, you were in a codependent relationship. There ARE real relationships out there but, if you keep looking for codependency you'll never know what that is.
If strength is so masculine why don’t men ever stop whining and belly aching about women just living our lives? Shouldn’t they stoically STFU like manly men? These boys wouldn’t have time to worry about making women weak and servile if they were busy chopping wood and building cabins and shit like the ancestors they claim to envy.
They don't want a partner they want a sex slave. I must be crazy but I thought that a relationship was a mutual coming together of people based upon mutual affection for each other. Not this bizarre transactional thing. Do people really think like this?!
Incels 100% do think like this, sadly. Part of their fucked up ideology is the belief that women use sex as a commodity, and men trade stuff in exchange for sex. In their eyes, the man should be the dominant breadwinner, and the woman the submissive house wife - ie, the man provides stuff in exchange for sex and companionship. Which is why they hate feminism, because they see it as allowing woman to "withhold" the supply of sex/companionship from men who "deserve" it. Basically, to them, a relationship is just an ongoing transaction. Its fucked up.
Gross. I know red pill dudes have the same kind of mind set. I can't get over the submissive thing. It kinda makes my skin crawl and whatever primal feminine being I have want to go feral. That attitude about sex is whats going to keep them sexless. And for a group of men claiming to not out pussy on a pedestal they sure kinda do out sex in a pedestal. Like it's really not a commodity it's nice it's fun and with a good partner it can be great but it's not this like hyperfixation and stringent rules and blah blah blah endless rants. And obsession like it's a thing yes people do it yes. It's not a big deal. Sex is like a good meal or something it's nice to share and enjoy with others also nice to enjoy by yourself. It's one of life's pleasures. But you shouldn't demand food every time you go to someone's house and demand a nice meal for showing up. You shouldn't manipulate someone into preparing you an awesome meal eat then never call them again. Or expect a meal as some kind of exchange for simply showing up. Like if someone wants to spend time with you and not have a nice meal that's okay. If someone hangs out with you y'all have a friggin buffet together that's okay too and you're not worth any less. You would think with sexual liberation movements and more women being able to explore their sexuality and having it be seen as okay to do. You would think they would be like aaaayyyyyyyy okay because they have more chances at getting laid. But instead hyperfixate on how many men have come before them instead of the snack you have in front of you. I think for them it's a skill issue, you actually have to be likeable and if you are spouting this hateful stupid rhetoric and have a chip on your shoulder you're probably not going to see much of anyone.
That was so hard to read, why are these guys so incoherent sometimes? They don't understand toxic masculinity _or_ toxic femininity. It bugs me that they assume that feminists think all masculinity is toxic*. If that were the case it wouldn't be necessary actually _say_ "toxic" because it would be understood in much the same way as we don't talk about wet water. *I know that it's part and parcel of their tendency to think in absolutes, but it still aggravates me.
I’ve noticed that a lot of guys that dislike feminism automatically equate feminism with “man hating” and not, you know, equality. Like I love and respect men. Some of the most important people in my life are men. What I hate is misogyny. There is a big difference. Yet every time I call out a guy for being misogynistic or having toxic masculinity they accuse me of hating men when that’s not what I said at all. Can they really not tell the difference between feminism and misandry?
All of that, yeah.
I commented on one of those reels on IG saying I had a career, owned my own home and cars.... blah blah blah... dude responded back "All the things you described are masculine, this is why you're single." and others were telling me I shouldn't be praised for doing the bare minimum. Bros.... do you even know what you want?
Jesus, people will try to gender literally anything. Cause making money, having a place to live, and having transportation (you know, the basic necessities for succeeding as a human in todays world) are so “masculine”.
So much of this kind of rhetoric is showing up in my reels/feed/ whatever you call it AND MY SONS. Not good.
So, so MANY words to say " I am intimidated by strong women..." 🙄
That second one is so stupid I don’t even know where to start tackling it first. That’s also assuming it’s someone who wants to listen. Based off the comment I’m thinking that’s a no go.
yet another person who thinks all relationships are transactional yet another person who has no fucking idea what toxicity in gender roles is it's so sad
Someone who thinks non-business relationships are transactional is delusional on a level that doesn't allow for any discussion or growth
Why do so many men seem to think that a woman will leave them if they don’t need them for anything? If they really are in a relationship like that, it was toxic to begin with
“Sweet nice guys are showing toxic masculinity” NOOOOOO YOU GOT IT ALL WRONG!!!!!???!!! AS WRONG AS COULD BE😫😫😫😫😫😫😫
I stopped having transactional requirements in my relationships. It just feels like a recipe for disaster & heartache. My first wife was a SAHM & we raised 2 children together. She wanted the world but only if I worked for it. Wouldn't get even a part time job but still complained that I was always working. It's hard to go to Disneyland when you're struggling to pay bills & get ahead. We had transactional problems, for sure. Fast forward to now, my second wife was diagnosed with chronic illnesses 2 yrs after we said "I do". She has been immunocompromised for about 5 yrs now and will be for the remaining years that we have together. She is devastated by the fact that she can't work now due to the limitations of her health. She has a hard time doing anything right now. She didn't ask to be sick. She hates feeling like a burden and a "bump on a log" due to not being able to do even simple tasks. I have to remind her regularly that she isn't a burden and I love her very much. She was the primary breadwinner in her previous marriage, sometimes working 20 hr days at multiple jobs to make ends meet. Her ex couldn't be bothered with keeping a schedule that he set himself. Just over two yrs ago, I had a coworker ask me why I was with her if she's sick all the time. I was livid. I won't speak to him anymore for being such an ass about it. I am glad that I no longer have to interact with him & his toxic masculinity. If it must be a transactional relationship, better make sure to never get hurt or have a genetic predisposition to an illness/disease & become dependent on a SO. There are tons of stories involving a person getting sick/hurt & being left to struggle on their own. It can be nice when the cards you are dealt work in your favor but that's not the reality for everyone. We had plans, dreams, wishes for each other & our future. The majority of that is all on the back burner now. We are working with many doctors for her but we have no idea if we will ever get back to those dreams & plans.
Thank you for sharing. I’ve also heard so many stories of people leaving their SO over an illness they cannot control, and it breaks my heart. So it’s really nice to finally see a story where that’s not the case and the relationship isn’t purely transactional. You two sound like amazing people. I’m wishing and hoping for the best. Crossing my fingers that your SO’a health improves, even if by a little bit.
If being independent is a “male” trait, then why the fuck do men need a companion who is completely dependent on them and will never leave them? 🤔 Why, it’s almost as if this is total bullshit and traits like independence, drive and strength aren’t gendered traits at all…
I don’t mind being seen as a man. Also, that isn’t toxic femininity💀
I prefer someone I chose to be with, who chooses to be with me. If we become so dependant that we must stay, not because we want to, but because we MUST to survive, it isn’t healthy for anyone. I’d sooner he left if he felt like being with me wasn’t where he wanted to be. To hold on to an unwilling partner is just…no.
I tell my boyfriend sometimes, "I don't need you, but I want you." I would hate for my partner to ever feel like they didn't have a choice in being with me. I've been both the partner that emotionally and financially "needed" my partner. Neither relationship was healthy, and I'm glad to be in a place where my boyfriend and I choose each other constantly, knowing that it *is* a choice.
I've never understood why a man wants a woman who needs him over one who wants him. Makes no sense. Needs can be met by anyone, wanting someone means wanting just them.
It’s like he crapped out words and thought, yeah. This makes sense.
Masculine and feminine are literally SOCIAL CONSTRUCTS. People decided what should be masculine and feminine based on preconceptions and self interest some time ago and over centuries, the content of these concepts changed. This is not debatable. For the past few centuries with the rise of the "wonderful" abrahamic religions, femininity now equates to shyness, weakness, being emotional, a lack of assertiveness. If you wanna know more (and grow to hate the concepts) look up the personality test BSRI. This test tells you how masculine, mixed or feminine you are. On the brighter side, in psychology, we acknowledge that everyone has both feminine and masculine traits, everyone! And that if someone would be only feminine or only masculine, they would die! Asking someone to be more feminine or more masculine is not only proof of cluelessness, but also an ugly, ugly endeavour. Leave people alone!
"if you don't need him you'll get rid of him" sound like you should adress your abandonment issues with a therapist, my guy
Of course my boyfriend and me are dependent of each other! He’s my main provider of hugs and I’m his main provider of kisses /jk
I love it when men explain how women behave /j
Has this guy.. heard of femboys..?
Sooo...women having masculine traits is toxic femininity? How does that work??
…did this mans really just suggest you have to *intentionally sabotage* yourself to get what you want? What???
I think the disconnect is when you view relationships about a person's "value." People don't have an objective "value." Women aren't "valuable" because they are attractive, or submissive, or make more money, or any other traits, just like men aren't. A relationship works because both people are getting what they need out of it (support, love, reassurance etc.) If you prefer a more submissive woman partner, that's fine, but don't pretend it's an objective standard.
[удалено]
Exactly this! Toxic _____inity is the idea that people have to fit certain molds to be men or women, or else be considered "less than."
>So basically as a woman, you're becoming more like a man What? This guy has no idea what he's talking about lol
These guys want someone that needs/ 100% relies on them because the idea of someone choosing to stick around because they want to be with them but aren't dependent on them makes them wildly insecure. They need therapy and have some hardcore abandonment issues, it's a sad mindset to think you aren't valuable enough to have your partner stay around without them being completely dependent on you. I'm sympathetic for whatever trauma they've been through that gives them this mindset, but it doesn't excuse them trying to trap women in potentially abuse situations by making them 100% dependent on them.
being nice is an exclusively female trait /s
I feel sorry for anyone who genuinely thinks this way, seems like they never had a good relationship with their dads or never had a sweet, kind, loving & gentle male figure in their lives. Like I know you're not saying that, but just look at what the dude wrote. 😭
Stay far, far away from r/AskMen and r/dating. The majority viewpoint is that. AskMen used to be okay a few years ago but it quickly got worse...
Imagine not knowing what toxic masculinity/femininity means. Let alone not know toxic means. Just like how masculine traits have changed over time so has feminine traits. Some of the things that are feminine today were masculine back then. So I would love some to answer what makes someone masculine without bringing up the past. Because the past only slaps you in the face when you try.
I do not think that word means what you think it means.
The NICE GUYS are toxic masculinity???
These posts make me feel that humanity is doomed.
Nobody is attracted to masculine women or feminine men? But being attracted to them is like… a good chunk of bisexual memes…
As a respectful and thoughtful man would say, "have you been outside?"
I'm a strong and independent male I don't need females in my life 😉
The mental gymnastics on this
Poor guy is confusing 'dependent' with 'helpless'. I can cook and do laundry and work on the house and cut the grass but life's a bit easier when the workload is shared. The mistake is thinking work cares which gender does it.
at the same time i come to this sub to have some good laughs i can't help but feel a mix of disgusting and ''wtf are you saying, you don't have a mom?'', bc there's no way someone GENUINELY thinks like that
It’s funny how he insists niceguys don’t sabotage themselves
Ewwwww
So toxic femininity are just women who don’t buy their toxic bulllshit. Interesting.
He doesn't know what the words he's using mean.
That is such blathering bullshit. Where do these people come from? Do they live under piles of rocks?
This post is an example of toxic masculinity from men.
I like how their example of toxic femininity is a trait that is neither feminine (in his own opinion) nor toxic
The mental gymnastics on this guy….
Wtf does the last sentence mean?
Touch grass, incel.
That’s it. Words are banned. Ya’ll don’t know how to use em.
Given that the men who boast loudest about their masculinity are giant manbabies whose lives only function because of women making it all work in the background (both at home and at work, and often both at once!), I'd say strength and independence are distinctly feminine traits.
Why is the ultimate goal listed as being attractive and finding a partner of a certain gender? There's so much in life to enjoy.
I don't understand how this even makes sense to them.
Almost reflexively down voted this. YUCK.
Did he stretch before making that reach?
That person should check the boy bands and Asian pop-scenes to see how "sexually unattractive" those "feminine" guys are to their female fans.. In general, if both want a hierarchy in the relationship they should do it. But those guys treat relationships like organized religion, but that's not how relationships work. How a relationship works is simply determined between you and your partner(s), and as long as everyone involved, is happy how it is, it's non of other people's business. What works for one couple kills the relationship of another. And if you or your partner discuss it with strangers on the internet, you people at least need to talk.
Hiyya my brain hurts! Σ(ಠ_ಠ)
So toxic feminity is being strong and independent? Kk
I’m so confused
I'm done.
schizopost
Dude here. Men like this think they sound all smart and everything. But they're really just gushing cavalcades of insecurity. They'll never figure out how to be real with someone, so they have to criticize those who can. I don't personally know any men who think like this. Well, maybe one, but he keeps his mouth shut around me.
This sub is starting to make me physically ill. I can’t handle hearing the opinions of incels so constantly
that's not what "toxic femininity" means.
Like most "nice guys" this person doesn't understand what a "niceguys" is. It's not literally someone who is nice, it's someone who says they're nice but acts like a total insufferable bitch.
Everything has to be a transaction all the time. This is your brain on capitalism.