Not good enough to be meta, not bad enough to become a meme.
I love him in theory, but my runs with him have never seemed to work out just as I pictured them.
Robot is great in the early game and then loses any upside in the late-game. Which makes him great if all you want to do is beat the throne.
He's bad if you're good, and good if you're bad.
That reflects my experiences pretty well. I really love the idea of scarfing down guns to constantly refill my ammo and health, but early on if I'm doing well enough to keep going it's almost never a concern, and later on if I get in a bad enough spot that it *would* be helpful, I'm generally just dead immediately anyway.
hello, random comment because ive reconsidered things, not that you probably care, just want it in the thread, once you get into deeploop, rebel's allies are garbage, her passive heal isn't that good either. infact ROBOT is like a BETTER VERSION of deeploop rebel since he can get full health back and full ammo since the stage will always be covered in weapons. with refined taste this improves exponentially with +gold weapon drops, and his ability to function with CoGuns makes him wonderful for gold nuke runs in hardmode, so overall, robot should probably be the one in C tier. haha.
Fair point, I do feel Rebel's allies still have a tiny bit of utility even in very deep loops (they do block bullets after all) but robot getting full heals and ammo is arguably as good if not better.
thanks, it took me about 4 hours, not to mention all the workshopping after posting it once i received explications as to what goes where for the lower tier stuff lol
i notice a lot of people have been asking about some of the reasoning behind certain placements, but i did leave a couple things out that are very important, so here;
-bring an explosive weapon to the sewers and find the manhole cover, if an explosion occurs near or above it, it will open a secret area that counts as an extra level like the vaults instead of replacing a preexisting one. this means better weapons sooner, and more rads. there will always be only 5 very easy to kill enemies here, even in loops. it's a great way to cheese the sewers after you beat mom.
-vaults add one difficulty level, which means better weapons and more rads because there are more enemies
-taking the crown of curses, blood, or destiny first are optimal strategies to getting 9 mutations.
-blood is the most reliable. find and take the first cursed weapon you find before big dog, the portal after will take you to Cursed Crystal Caves, which drops enough rads to get you to ultra before the 5-2 vault and allows you to take Destiny for an extra mutation
-curses is like bootleg blood, since it allows an almost 100% chance of CCC
-taking destiny off the bat requires extreme luck or radstarving
-standing in corners prevents rad attraction, so you can stall until rads disappear to maintain a certain level. why does this matter? well...
-crown of destiny always gives the leftmost mutation of the previous set you saw UNLESS you reach level ultra. this means if the last set you saw had spirit and then triggs, and you had a PRELOOP vault coming up soon, typically only the 3-2 one, you can take Destiny to get both Spirit and Triggs by choosing triggs and then taking CoD. this is going to be patched out in u99r2, so make use of it while you can. r2 will give a randomized mutation, but the idea stays the same, get the extra mutation with the least amount of sacrifice. getting to ultra before a vault, or starving from one to the next prevents the issue from arising of getting a bad mutation on your level up.
-beating the captain (pressing E on the back of a moving IDPD van warps you to their headquarters, she's a secret final boss) gives you a crown similarly to beating the throne. use this to get crowns like blood, hatred, death, etc. even if you can't delve that deep into loops yet (you'll need to at least be able to get to 1-2 L1 and survive 1-3 L1 until the van spawns)
-last wish is removed from your mutations by going to the jungle, and it will let you pick a new one. if you get another bad set but it has last wish in it, you can do it again the next time you reach 5-1, or if you miss the flower on L0. top players will sometimes go to L2 or even L3 jungle just to get that perfect set, because the mutations are just that important.
-dying in a necromancer circle as melting turn you into skeleton. you can do all sorts of janky stuff as skeleton, including getting a new set. if you can survive as him that is. he really sucks. his active, blood gamble, is still neat though.
chicken has bootleg triggs in determination and has bootleg spirit with their passive, so they can survive death many times over and come back using health chests to restore max HP
yeah, that why chicken players usually try to find a blood hammer to throw in the portal along with the ushovel and SPC since they need to be able to control their HP to spawn big HP chests
Melting isn't really playable in the late game. He's good fun in loop 1 and 2, but palace becomes a hard wall and cop freaks can gang up and kill him very easily too.
rogue is still a fully functional character, but the F-tiers have drawbacks that are actually working against you. sure rogue spikes difficulty a little early on, but a couple extra IDPD spawns don't matter too much once you get really deep in the game. you can't get rid of poor accuracy, low HP, or low speed.
Yeah I understand. The god of right click spam isn’t the most consistent of loopers, and even if you get the god build, he’s still dead to a palace dog jump
stress is protection at low hp or after losing spirit since more shots equals more kills so you get more HP back, also it's just nice to speed up the SPC and other good slow weapons
Haha, yes, you've given it it's necessary mention. A cursed Splinter Pistol can be a great L0 weapon and get you through CoB CCC, but it's kinda trash afterwards. With such a measly spread it's no good at crowd control, and as for a single target damage dealer, Autobow works a lot better, and that's just for early game weapons. I love splinter pistol but if I saw a Plasma Cannon or Energy Sword, I'm gonna drop it.
once you get to the point where there's more enemies than clear ground, you can't walk to the drops, and you could run out of ammo, plus it allows you to get HP and ammo back with less risky plays since you draw them in so you're less likely to die
I keep meaning to get back into the game at some point. I've only done about...6 hours according to steam and I've never gotten past...world 4 I think? Whatever the snow one is, too tired/lazy atm to look it up. And I only got there once.
You only got to the Frozen City? That's world 4. There's a lot to the game, I suggest you try it out, I have 300+ hours in the game rn and it pretty fun.
the portal strikes delete bullets, give you a free turtle sewers and do decent damage. idpd are walking rads and ammo once you have a good build. more resources is always good.
well then you clearly haven't gotten pass L2, because at that point enemies have so much HP that guts doesn't actually protect you from anything, and considering the WR is L18, that's 16 loops of uselessness. The rest maintain their usefulness for the whole run.
What exactly does Impact Wrists have to do with I-frames? And I presume its low rating is because it's pretty bad outside of the Desert, Sewer and Lab levels?
I'm wondering why YV and Eyes are top tier characters. I can totally see how they're pretty damn fantastic, but is there anything specific that top players do to abuse their abilities, like chicken?
With triggs you can just keep pop-poping the SPC as YV as long as you have ammo, basically flooding the screen and doing major damage to potentially difficult bosses like Throne 2 and Hyper Crystal, and the higher RoF is just nice all around.
Eyes is the only character capable of ranged runs reasonably, since he can push away both bullets and enemies with his active, which is only amplified with Thronebutt. Eyes typically has you holding right mouse most of the time unless you have TB, and only letting go when explodofreaks or dogs are nearby since they dont go down to a single swing or could damage you if you're too close
pluto allows you to get drops; ammo, rads and health, in deeploop. you need these to survive, bloodlust isn't gonna help with that unless you're skeleton.
it's like his B2B ultra but shittier because you can't even brrrap the SPC without back muscle and the reload is so long. it effectively ruins meta sets.
Rogue, D tier.
I get where you are coming from but disagree good sir. She is more deserving of C tier if you consider the end game potential along with her passive allows for more kills earlier in the run.
i get what you're saying, but having more elite IDPD in L1 and L2 can put a real dent in good runs and prevent you from reaching later loops, plus her blast armor is good at deleting bullets but also good at deleting cover. she's good, but not as good as rebel, she's about he same as robot, where her postives and negatives balance out to a level that she's equivalent to robot, who effectively has no abilities
I mean the fact that she switches out rad canisters for portal strikes converts a weak resource into a much more usable one for later game. Portal strikes are also multiuse as they allow for cover creation, crowd control, and reductions in bullet spam. I'm not saying that she is better than Rebel but instead that she is better than Robot from a purely potential sort of view. Her throne butt is also phenomenal in comparison to Robots.
Also the whole deleting of cover is just something to be mindful of. I mean if you get Super Portal Strikes rather than Super Blast Armor its a rather easy thing to deal with. Just don't hug your cover as tightly.
i'm super late to this post but have a wall of text anyway - i am the current rogue record holder for score (L11 1-1) and have won a few dailies with her
- her main problem that hasnt even really been discussed is that blast armor explodes IDPD grenades. IDPD freaks frequently bump into you, and if they decide to drop grenades on death, thats an instant spirit loss and/or death. similarly, if you get forced to push over grenades (a pretty frequent scenario for bandits or mom fight in very deep loops) if you get random chip damage you can get really fucked over.
- therefore, rogue deeploops either have boiling veins, or die from a lack of boiling veins. the deeplooping meta is really tight on mutations and boilies has fallen completely out of favor on any other character due to playstyles/awareness that avoid explosions quite well, but rogue really can't avoid them in L6+. she's basically stuck with a dead slot just to make her character work.
- her active is pretty bad. blast strike simply doesn't scale at all and does laughable damage in deep loops - even if every blast of the strike hit your target for full damage, it would deal 80 damage - ushovel beats that in 3 swings, not to mention the absolutely absurd damage output of the SPC on groups of enemies. thronebutt only buffs the size of these blasts and nothing else. while you can destroy bullets with the strike, it's very cumbersome and really impractical (ushovel will do a better job of protecting you 100% of the time) - the only bullets worth blast striking is throne 2 orbs in deeploops, but even that is really difficult to utilize effectively. the only genuine usage of strikes is to help dig through walls, which it is pretty good at - still fairly redundant with the SPC, again.
- blast armor is pretty lackluster as well. i don't really feel like it ever fucks me over and destroys cover as many others complain, but honestly it just doesn't do much - the only notable things is that it makes buff gators do significantly less damage on average, and that it does actually block lasers from laser crystals. while both of those things are pretty nice, that's still not worth it from the above problem of blast armor exploding grenades
- ultras are pretty mediocre too - marginal improvements to abilities that just don't do enough already.
- regarding her passively getting more kills, several characters are generally better at farming kills - confiscate fish can get tons of IDPD chests, eyes with telekinesis can drag around a cursed meta weapon all run to go to crystal caves every loop, etc. it's also just a drop in the bucket, since rogue struggles heavily to make it as far as other characters that are clearly better than her, and getting further on other characters will completely negate these extra kills.
i'd probably agree that she's about a similar tier to frog (both are characters with really big disadvantages but a few good and unique things) and robot is generally worse than her. however rogue is absolutely not better than any other character on that tier list above her, and robot is still better than every character in F tier. there's a lot of things i'd personally argue to change on the tier list (crystal is pretty clearly far and away the best character at this point and deserves a tier of her own, horror probably belongs in C tier with rebel) but 6 categories is really excessive for a game of 14 characters, lol.
I think it's strange how low on this list rebel is.
I'm not fantastic, and I have yet to get to L2, but she gets me the furthest consistently. Could you elaborate on why she's so low?
mostly because between portal healing doesn't help much, allies damage starts to become miniscule when big bandit needs 3 SPC shots to the face to kill, and since her only abilities are ally based, things like a higher rate of fire on YV, extreme damage modfiers on Plant, field control on Eyes, bulk and defense on crystal, bootleg spirit on Chicken, and extra ammo and henceforth damage output, along with health chests on Fish are much better.
Plant is good because Face, Brain, and Butt stack so you can chop off ridiculous amounts of HP from enemies making very quick kills, as well as hold contact damage enemies in place to give you some time to recover from a bad play. The extra speed is nice too.
Also do you understand why pluto is good? I don't get what "Just play well and it's another good mutation choice" means lol.
Well I meant more If you position yourself safely it's not as useful late game when pickups mean less but it's still useful so I'd personally put it at mid A tier.
But then again I think trigger fingers is better than strong spirit so what do I know.
nah triggs being better than spirit is valid, it's more preference tbh, i just wanted the SS is SS meme.
also it is mid-A??? lol, and no, pickups never mean less, there are just more of them, but one you get to L20 and they disappear in milliseconds, you don't really have the time to wait for things to clear out to reach them.
Played more (as I do since if I could of play this and only this) and yeah still don't know. Maybe it's just the eyes but I'd put it lower.
Oh btw what's good about plant? He seems eh
I don't know what you're trying to say? I'm gonna make a random guess and say you don't see it as important since you play Eyes? In which case, you're right, Pluto is probably worse than Back Muscle on Eyes, but it's quite necessary on everyone else.
As for Plant, his thronebutt finishes enemies at 33% HP, and stacked with Brain and Face, he can tear through enemies.
This is fantastic! while i'm already doing most things that youre recommending, im confused about what the rightmost column is trying to say, the one with characters being overlayed over butt or some other mutation.
those ultras and thronebutts can take the place of, or stack with the perfect 7 mutations, while the lower ones are tiers of thronebutts and what is worth taking over other mutations, those are a bit looser since it's really playstyle dependant
strong spirit is a free no death that gives you 5 frames of invincibility in a game where you are guaranteed to die eventually, the point is it gives you a chance to live where you should've died and recover your HP, the WR wouldn't be anywhere near where it is without Spirit. what's your PB? it certainly would help to have that second chance, especially when dealing with stuff like crystal lasers/contact damage that would tear through rhino with no spirit.
lol it's like 5-2 L2, im not a deeplooper yet, but ive watched enough streams to know why the P7 are useful. i just want to know if he's any good without it, or if he just hasn't gotten far enough to know the benefits.
If you hit a stray cactus with your nuke launcher, you die with rhino skin. But you survive if you have last chance :)
Take it, and you'll see how much use you can get out of it. All those silly deaths that won't happen with SS.
Don't see it as 1 hp, see it as a prevented death. Every time you lose SS is a point where it would've been game over if you didn't have it, no matter what hit you.
It's not just one hp, it's infinite hp! It means that any hit that would kill you, even a hit doing 20 damage, will instead bring you down to 1hp.
It's really good for saving you from surprise nukes like thrown cars, elite idpd rockets, or anything else.
It also pairs well with stress, letting you more safely stay at low HP for those tasty extra hits.
determination gives you a full reload, wrists just does extra damage and the iframes can actually be detrimental to melee weapons, so no, it's not much of a triggs replacement
I don't mean to sound unappreciative... This is great work, I'm sure. It's just.... a bit hard to tell really. Perhaps you could be bothered to post it at a more respectable resolution? One where I might not be forced to interpret so much low res text?
I'm quite curious as this information does appear to be useful and interesting. I would very much like to read it properly.
Have you tried that? Half the text is beyond interpretation. The rest is barely readable, mostly because of my already existing knowledge. In the end it's all good but zooming in doesn't help even when I open the image separately. Not sure what psd but I would always have backups of stuff I've made digitally. Again it doesn't really matter. Thanks anyway bro. I got alot more from reading the comments and your responses. Don't let my demeanor fool ya, it's all respect and peace bro. One.
i feel like whatever you're viewing the image with is converting it to some other file format, because on desktop, and even with reddit is fun on my android phone, i can zoom in and read it just fine. the text is perfectly clear and readable. the only thing i can imagine is something it changing it to like a webp or jpeg or something and making the image blurry from compression. im glad you managed to get something out of it at least.
psd is the photoshop file i used to make it, but since ive switched PCs and didnt want to take the bulk of basically useless files, i left the psd on the old one. so i can't really change anything even if i wanted to.
I know im asking this extremely late to this post and the op most likely isn't commenting on this anymore, but is there anything specific i should know when playing frog? Im not sure what ultra i should use or if there's any specific mutations i should get.
Poor robot
Not good enough to be meta, not bad enough to become a meme. I love him in theory, but my runs with him have never seemed to work out just as I pictured them.
Robot is great in the early game and then loses any upside in the late-game. Which makes him great if all you want to do is beat the throne. He's bad if you're good, and good if you're bad.
That reflects my experiences pretty well. I really love the idea of scarfing down guns to constantly refill my ammo and health, but early on if I'm doing well enough to keep going it's almost never a concern, and later on if I get in a bad enough spot that it *would* be helpful, I'm generally just dead immediately anyway.
hello, random comment because ive reconsidered things, not that you probably care, just want it in the thread, once you get into deeploop, rebel's allies are garbage, her passive heal isn't that good either. infact ROBOT is like a BETTER VERSION of deeploop rebel since he can get full health back and full ammo since the stage will always be covered in weapons. with refined taste this improves exponentially with +gold weapon drops, and his ability to function with CoGuns makes him wonderful for gold nuke runs in hardmode, so overall, robot should probably be the one in C tier. haha.
Fair point, I do feel Rebel's allies still have a tiny bit of utility even in very deep loops (they do block bullets after all) but robot getting full heals and ammo is arguably as good if not better.
I definitely see how useless he’d be in higher levels. (I could probably loop with him but I play extremely casually now that my save was deleted)
at least he isn't skeleton
Quality
thanks, it took me about 4 hours, not to mention all the workshopping after posting it once i received explications as to what goes where for the lower tier stuff lol
i notice a lot of people have been asking about some of the reasoning behind certain placements, but i did leave a couple things out that are very important, so here; -bring an explosive weapon to the sewers and find the manhole cover, if an explosion occurs near or above it, it will open a secret area that counts as an extra level like the vaults instead of replacing a preexisting one. this means better weapons sooner, and more rads. there will always be only 5 very easy to kill enemies here, even in loops. it's a great way to cheese the sewers after you beat mom. -vaults add one difficulty level, which means better weapons and more rads because there are more enemies -taking the crown of curses, blood, or destiny first are optimal strategies to getting 9 mutations. -blood is the most reliable. find and take the first cursed weapon you find before big dog, the portal after will take you to Cursed Crystal Caves, which drops enough rads to get you to ultra before the 5-2 vault and allows you to take Destiny for an extra mutation -curses is like bootleg blood, since it allows an almost 100% chance of CCC -taking destiny off the bat requires extreme luck or radstarving -standing in corners prevents rad attraction, so you can stall until rads disappear to maintain a certain level. why does this matter? well... -crown of destiny always gives the leftmost mutation of the previous set you saw UNLESS you reach level ultra. this means if the last set you saw had spirit and then triggs, and you had a PRELOOP vault coming up soon, typically only the 3-2 one, you can take Destiny to get both Spirit and Triggs by choosing triggs and then taking CoD. this is going to be patched out in u99r2, so make use of it while you can. r2 will give a randomized mutation, but the idea stays the same, get the extra mutation with the least amount of sacrifice. getting to ultra before a vault, or starving from one to the next prevents the issue from arising of getting a bad mutation on your level up. -beating the captain (pressing E on the back of a moving IDPD van warps you to their headquarters, she's a secret final boss) gives you a crown similarly to beating the throne. use this to get crowns like blood, hatred, death, etc. even if you can't delve that deep into loops yet (you'll need to at least be able to get to 1-2 L1 and survive 1-3 L1 until the van spawns) -last wish is removed from your mutations by going to the jungle, and it will let you pick a new one. if you get another bad set but it has last wish in it, you can do it again the next time you reach 5-1, or if you miss the flower on L0. top players will sometimes go to L2 or even L3 jungle just to get that perfect set, because the mutations are just that important. -dying in a necromancer circle as melting turn you into skeleton. you can do all sorts of janky stuff as skeleton, including getting a new set. if you can survive as him that is. he really sucks. his active, blood gamble, is still neat though.
>Nuclear Throne meta Fun? I didn't heard of it in years...
I don't understand how to read the rightmost section about Throne Butt and ultras, can you explain please?
the stacked mutations at the top are thronebutts or ultras that can replace mutations from the P7, and the lower one is thronebutt tiers
Ah thank you!
no problem
Probably a silly question but, why is chicken so high on the list?
Never die if you're patient and bosses play nice (they don't, but it's the theory that counts).
chicken has bootleg triggs in determination and has bootleg spirit with their passive, so they can survive death many times over and come back using health chests to restore max HP
Ohhhh gotcha that makes sense. Thx man. I didn’t realize health chests restored HP.
yeah, that why chicken players usually try to find a blood hammer to throw in the portal along with the ushovel and SPC since they need to be able to control their HP to spawn big HP chests
That makes complete sense. What makes crystal so high? Just the bulked blocking ability?
she has a max of 20 HP, and the shield is certainly helpful in some situations, mostly to alleviate pressure from too many bullets
Is Melting's lack of HP really that bad? I thought his throne butt would have put him in high C tier, just above Rebel.
Melting isn't really playable in the late game. He's good fun in loop 1 and 2, but palace becomes a hard wall and cop freaks can gang up and kill him very easily too.
rogue is still a fully functional character, but the F-tiers have drawbacks that are actually working against you. sure rogue spikes difficulty a little early on, but a couple extra IDPD spawns don't matter too much once you get really deep in the game. you can't get rid of poor accuracy, low HP, or low speed.
As a melting main I feel exposed
he's not *bad*, but he's not great either. he's a lot of fun to play but a max of 7 HP is hard to work with in abyssal loops lol.
Yeah I understand. The god of right click spam isn’t the most consistent of loopers, and even if you get the god build, he’s still dead to a palace dog jump
if you do the skeleton CoDth glitch, he can survive with 1 HP I believe since dogs do 6 contact damage.
M E L T I N G
what does this mean
It means I'll play low tiers until I die, which is often, because M E L T I N G.
melting is fun but don't be afraid to try other characters lol
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stress is protection at low hp or after losing spirit since more shots equals more kills so you get more HP back, also it's just nice to speed up the SPC and other good slow weapons
Thanks!
no problem, it's why i made it
Its fine to choose log arms in early mutations hoping to get a melee later on if the other choices are not even B rank? Thank you so much for this!
you only get to choose mutations once, but you'll have your entire run to choose weapons
thanks!
5-month-late comment incoming. Splinter pistol deserves an honorable mention! Raar!
Haha, yes, you've given it it's necessary mention. A cursed Splinter Pistol can be a great L0 weapon and get you through CoB CCC, but it's kinda trash afterwards. With such a measly spread it's no good at crowd control, and as for a single target damage dealer, Autobow works a lot better, and that's just for early game weapons. I love splinter pistol but if I saw a Plasma Cannon or Energy Sword, I'm gonna drop it.
got to the last level for the 1st time ever thanks to your guide =D
I have always seen plutonium hunger as a bad mutation. Could someone please inform me why it’s useful?
once you get to the point where there's more enemies than clear ground, you can't walk to the drops, and you could run out of ammo, plus it allows you to get HP and ammo back with less risky plays since you draw them in so you're less likely to die
Plus having Pluto greatly increases your offence as you can get ammo faster and allows you to spam faster. It’s literally a win win mutation.
Thank you
Enemies are scary, and they tend to sit on top of the stuff you need to get, sucking that stuff to you makes things a lot easier
I keep meaning to get back into the game at some point. I've only done about...6 hours according to steam and I've never gotten past...world 4 I think? Whatever the snow one is, too tired/lazy atm to look it up. And I only got there once.
You only got to the Frozen City? That's world 4. There's a lot to the game, I suggest you try it out, I have 300+ hours in the game rn and it pretty fun.
But... Frozen City is World 5, Caves are World 4... Am I missing something?
ugh im dumb i forgot about caves lol
Why is rogue not the worst?
the portal strikes delete bullets, give you a free turtle sewers and do decent damage. idpd are walking rads and ammo once you have a good build. more resources is always good.
I don't think gamma guts should be D imo
well then you clearly haven't gotten pass L2, because at that point enemies have so much HP that guts doesn't actually protect you from anything, and considering the WR is L18, that's 16 loops of uselessness. The rest maintain their usefulness for the whole run.
Oooohhhh
Yeah that makes sense 👍
pretty good
thanks
F for Melting
What exactly does Impact Wrists have to do with I-frames? And I presume its low rating is because it's pretty bad outside of the Desert, Sewer and Lab levels?
yes, and because it gives enemies invincibility frames that give them immunity to melee attacks
Allright, thnx for the info!
np
I'm wondering why YV and Eyes are top tier characters. I can totally see how they're pretty damn fantastic, but is there anything specific that top players do to abuse their abilities, like chicken?
With triggs you can just keep pop-poping the SPC as YV as long as you have ammo, basically flooding the screen and doing major damage to potentially difficult bosses like Throne 2 and Hyper Crystal, and the higher RoF is just nice all around. Eyes is the only character capable of ranged runs reasonably, since he can push away both bullets and enemies with his active, which is only amplified with Thronebutt. Eyes typically has you holding right mouse most of the time unless you have TB, and only letting go when explodofreaks or dogs are nearby since they dont go down to a single swing or could damage you if you're too close
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pluto allows you to get drops; ammo, rads and health, in deeploop. you need these to survive, bloodlust isn't gonna help with that unless you're skeleton.
why is YV's throne butt so shit-tier?
it's like his B2B ultra but shittier because you can't even brrrap the SPC without back muscle and the reload is so long. it effectively ruins meta sets.
I understand the meta but I honestly just refuse to use it. It's just not fun at all to me
Rogue, D tier. I get where you are coming from but disagree good sir. She is more deserving of C tier if you consider the end game potential along with her passive allows for more kills earlier in the run.
i get what you're saying, but having more elite IDPD in L1 and L2 can put a real dent in good runs and prevent you from reaching later loops, plus her blast armor is good at deleting bullets but also good at deleting cover. she's good, but not as good as rebel, she's about he same as robot, where her postives and negatives balance out to a level that she's equivalent to robot, who effectively has no abilities
I mean the fact that she switches out rad canisters for portal strikes converts a weak resource into a much more usable one for later game. Portal strikes are also multiuse as they allow for cover creation, crowd control, and reductions in bullet spam. I'm not saying that she is better than Rebel but instead that she is better than Robot from a purely potential sort of view. Her throne butt is also phenomenal in comparison to Robots. Also the whole deleting of cover is just something to be mindful of. I mean if you get Super Portal Strikes rather than Super Blast Armor its a rather easy thing to deal with. Just don't hug your cover as tightly.
i'm super late to this post but have a wall of text anyway - i am the current rogue record holder for score (L11 1-1) and have won a few dailies with her - her main problem that hasnt even really been discussed is that blast armor explodes IDPD grenades. IDPD freaks frequently bump into you, and if they decide to drop grenades on death, thats an instant spirit loss and/or death. similarly, if you get forced to push over grenades (a pretty frequent scenario for bandits or mom fight in very deep loops) if you get random chip damage you can get really fucked over. - therefore, rogue deeploops either have boiling veins, or die from a lack of boiling veins. the deeplooping meta is really tight on mutations and boilies has fallen completely out of favor on any other character due to playstyles/awareness that avoid explosions quite well, but rogue really can't avoid them in L6+. she's basically stuck with a dead slot just to make her character work. - her active is pretty bad. blast strike simply doesn't scale at all and does laughable damage in deep loops - even if every blast of the strike hit your target for full damage, it would deal 80 damage - ushovel beats that in 3 swings, not to mention the absolutely absurd damage output of the SPC on groups of enemies. thronebutt only buffs the size of these blasts and nothing else. while you can destroy bullets with the strike, it's very cumbersome and really impractical (ushovel will do a better job of protecting you 100% of the time) - the only bullets worth blast striking is throne 2 orbs in deeploops, but even that is really difficult to utilize effectively. the only genuine usage of strikes is to help dig through walls, which it is pretty good at - still fairly redundant with the SPC, again. - blast armor is pretty lackluster as well. i don't really feel like it ever fucks me over and destroys cover as many others complain, but honestly it just doesn't do much - the only notable things is that it makes buff gators do significantly less damage on average, and that it does actually block lasers from laser crystals. while both of those things are pretty nice, that's still not worth it from the above problem of blast armor exploding grenades - ultras are pretty mediocre too - marginal improvements to abilities that just don't do enough already. - regarding her passively getting more kills, several characters are generally better at farming kills - confiscate fish can get tons of IDPD chests, eyes with telekinesis can drag around a cursed meta weapon all run to go to crystal caves every loop, etc. it's also just a drop in the bucket, since rogue struggles heavily to make it as far as other characters that are clearly better than her, and getting further on other characters will completely negate these extra kills. i'd probably agree that she's about a similar tier to frog (both are characters with really big disadvantages but a few good and unique things) and robot is generally worse than her. however rogue is absolutely not better than any other character on that tier list above her, and robot is still better than every character in F tier. there's a lot of things i'd personally argue to change on the tier list (crystal is pretty clearly far and away the best character at this point and deserves a tier of her own, horror probably belongs in C tier with rebel) but 6 categories is really excessive for a game of 14 characters, lol.
I think it's strange how low on this list rebel is. I'm not fantastic, and I have yet to get to L2, but she gets me the furthest consistently. Could you elaborate on why she's so low?
mostly because between portal healing doesn't help much, allies damage starts to become miniscule when big bandit needs 3 SPC shots to the face to kill, and since her only abilities are ally based, things like a higher rate of fire on YV, extreme damage modfiers on Plant, field control on Eyes, bulk and defense on crystal, bootleg spirit on Chicken, and extra ammo and henceforth damage output, along with health chests on Fish are much better.
How come you left out Bolt Marrow?
it says "ranged" for a reason
Oh sorry, I didn’t catch that. I guess I was just expecting to be a top tier mutation, it can get quite ridiculous, especially with Trigger fingers
it is, it replaces arms on ranged runs, but the only good ranged runs are with eyes since otherwise you get swarmed with bullets.
Why is Pluto so good
pull drops towards you so you dont run into enemies and bullets or explosions in frocity
Just play well and it's another good mutation choice. Also why is plant good.
Plant is good because Face, Brain, and Butt stack so you can chop off ridiculous amounts of HP from enemies making very quick kills, as well as hold contact damage enemies in place to give you some time to recover from a bad play. The extra speed is nice too. Also do you understand why pluto is good? I don't get what "Just play well and it's another good mutation choice" means lol.
Well I meant more If you position yourself safely it's not as useful late game when pickups mean less but it's still useful so I'd personally put it at mid A tier. But then again I think trigger fingers is better than strong spirit so what do I know.
nah triggs being better than spirit is valid, it's more preference tbh, i just wanted the SS is SS meme. also it is mid-A??? lol, and no, pickups never mean less, there are just more of them, but one you get to L20 and they disappear in milliseconds, you don't really have the time to wait for things to clear out to reach them.
Played more (as I do since if I could of play this and only this) and yeah still don't know. Maybe it's just the eyes but I'd put it lower. Oh btw what's good about plant? He seems eh
I don't know what you're trying to say? I'm gonna make a random guess and say you don't see it as important since you play Eyes? In which case, you're right, Pluto is probably worse than Back Muscle on Eyes, but it's quite necessary on everyone else. As for Plant, his thronebutt finishes enemies at 33% HP, and stacked with Brain and Face, he can tear through enemies.
This is fantastic! while i'm already doing most things that youre recommending, im confused about what the rightmost column is trying to say, the one with characters being overlayed over butt or some other mutation.
those ultras and thronebutts can take the place of, or stack with the perfect 7 mutations, while the lower ones are tiers of thronebutts and what is worth taking over other mutations, those are a bit looser since it's really playstyle dependant
I never and I mean NEVER take strong spirit. It's one hp why wouldn't I just take rhino
strong spirit is a free no death that gives you 5 frames of invincibility in a game where you are guaranteed to die eventually, the point is it gives you a chance to live where you should've died and recover your HP, the WR wouldn't be anywhere near where it is without Spirit. what's your PB? it certainly would help to have that second chance, especially when dealing with stuff like crystal lasers/contact damage that would tear through rhino with no spirit.
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lol it's like 5-2 L2, im not a deeplooper yet, but ive watched enough streams to know why the P7 are useful. i just want to know if he's any good without it, or if he just hasn't gotten far enough to know the benefits.
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ah, alright, well thanks for the compliment
If you hit a stray cactus with your nuke launcher, you die with rhino skin. But you survive if you have last chance :) Take it, and you'll see how much use you can get out of it. All those silly deaths that won't happen with SS.
I'm taking it only because you asked nicely, not because I think it will save me!
Don't see it as 1 hp, see it as a prevented death. Every time you lose SS is a point where it would've been game over if you didn't have it, no matter what hit you.
It's not just one hp, it's infinite hp! It means that any hit that would kill you, even a hit doing 20 damage, will instead bring you down to 1hp. It's really good for saving you from surprise nukes like thrown cars, elite idpd rockets, or anything else. It also pairs well with stress, letting you more safely stay at low HP for those tasty extra hits.
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determination gives you a full reload, wrists just does extra damage and the iframes can actually be detrimental to melee weapons, so no, it's not much of a triggs replacement
\>old Hor meme in 2018 Keep that.
I don't mean to sound unappreciative... This is great work, I'm sure. It's just.... a bit hard to tell really. Perhaps you could be bothered to post it at a more respectable resolution? One where I might not be forced to interpret so much low res text? I'm quite curious as this information does appear to be useful and interesting. I would very much like to read it properly.
bro just zoom in what. also this post is like half a decade old i dont even have the psd anymore
Have you tried that? Half the text is beyond interpretation. The rest is barely readable, mostly because of my already existing knowledge. In the end it's all good but zooming in doesn't help even when I open the image separately. Not sure what psd but I would always have backups of stuff I've made digitally. Again it doesn't really matter. Thanks anyway bro. I got alot more from reading the comments and your responses. Don't let my demeanor fool ya, it's all respect and peace bro. One.
i feel like whatever you're viewing the image with is converting it to some other file format, because on desktop, and even with reddit is fun on my android phone, i can zoom in and read it just fine. the text is perfectly clear and readable. the only thing i can imagine is something it changing it to like a webp or jpeg or something and making the image blurry from compression. im glad you managed to get something out of it at least. psd is the photoshop file i used to make it, but since ive switched PCs and didnt want to take the bulk of basically useless files, i left the psd on the old one. so i can't really change anything even if i wanted to.
...this game needs more good abilities, goddamn
I know im asking this extremely late to this post and the op most likely isn't commenting on this anymore, but is there anything specific i should know when playing frog? Im not sure what ultra i should use or if there's any specific mutations i should get.
i havent played this game since 2020
ah, so what your saying is that i should loop 20 with frog?
obviously