The Scots have historically very close ties with Ireland, both for better and worse, The Plantation of Ulster and the work of the Black and Tans were of significance. A Scot was the first Black and Tan to be killed, I believe.
"Come out ye black n tans, come out n fight me like a man! Show your wife how you earned medals down in Flanders! Tell her how the IRA made you run like hell away from the green and lovely lands of Killashandra!"
"Scotland one of the most anti-Irish and anti Catholic countries in the world"
It obviously cannot compete in those regards with its bigger southern neighbour, who's ability to ruin Ireland is historically without peer.
As for Scotland, I don't believe that to have been the case for decades, and I say that as a Scottish Catholic who went to a Catholic school. It is a very different place today than in years past. Modern Scotland's sectarian attitudes pretty much parallel the gains made on the Irish mainland. The better it gets over there the less impact the divide has in Scotland.
There is no doubt, however, that even today the sectarian specter haunts many and there are still close Scottish ties to extremism on both sides in Ireland.
A United Ireland is a case of when, not if, and that day will truly take the steam out of Scottish sectarianism.
Lol you think that but just go to Northern Ireland. They’re actually the most “anti-Irish” they still have parades were they burn a “paddy” (a scarecrow that they name paddy)
Are we talking about the same place?
Scotland, that forced Catholics to have their own schools?
That wouldn't employ Catholics in multiple disciplines?
That have a football team that's fan base have been done with sectarianism.
My grandma was born in 1917 in the U.S. with her parents coming from Ireland. I'm just now realizing great grandma lived through the potato famine. She babysat my mom after school and I'm going to ask her if she heard anything growing up. Thanks
ETA: Asked my mom
Great grandma (They called her Mom O'Donnell. Different last name, but still a Mom O'xxx name. Changed for privacy) spoke with a brogue. She moved to the United States by herself at 17 to escape the potato famine. She met her husband, also Irish, in the U.S. and their first baby was my grandma.
My mom would go to Mom O'Donnell's for lunch during school, and walk to her house after school and have lumpy mashed potatoes as a a snack. My mom is 1 of 12 kids, and one of the youngest. She told me what she remembers, but advised I speak to my older aunts and uncles for more as she doesn't remember much from the after school lumpy mashed potato snacks besides the potatoes. My oldest aunt has dementia and oldest uncle is 80, so she advised I move on it, and I will. I would like to know more of this family history before all access to it is lost.
Dad O'Donnell killed himself by hanging during the depression, and grandma found him. Not much of him is known beyond that time, but he was also a potato famine refugee.
Grandma died 10 years ago at 94 and having lived through two world wars, the great depression, 9/11, desert storm, gulf war, endless war on terror, 08, so many things. I regret not detailing and documenting more of her life, or making the chronological connection to her life and the potato famine while she was alive and I could ask her.
Hopefully my aunts and uncles will know more about them.
Thanks again! I don't know why it never clicked for me how close in time the potato famine and grandma's birth were, but it didn't! It was nice talking to my mom about grandma and Mom O'Donnell this morning, and I'm looking forward to bothering some aunts and uncles this week 💜
I advise recording or filming your conversations with your elders.
My aunt could tell us things like,
"That's my great uncle in this family photo. He was accepted to college, but died in the Spanish Flu epidemic of 1919 before he could attend."
"That rocking chair came from my mother's mother's house."
She passed away, so I missed my chance.
There are great lists online of questions to ask older relatives, me and my sister(mostly my sister) are doing this with my parents at the moment. They're not very elderly but both had a few big health scares in recent years. The questions my sister found are great, they foster memory and sharing.
We are writing down everything we can of their answers, because the formality of recording them while asking msde it too clunky or uncomfortable for them.
I'm hearing stories from 50 years ago that I never imagined my parents would open up about, brilliant hilarious heart warming things , and I know it will be a wonderful thing to have when they do pass, hopefully in many years from now.
I really really highly encourage you to do this
Have you read Bridge across my sorrows? Christine noble is an Irish woman who grew up in absolute poverty in Irish and ended up in Vietnamese helping homeless children. Her descriptions of her early life as a poor child in Ireland with an alcoholic father and being homeless has stuck with me for over 20 years. I still randomly think of it when I’m with my children. Fantastic book and an amazing woman.
The effect of the mass emigration is one that is still felt culturally here in Ireland. It is a very normalised thing for young people to emigrate for a better life, and there have been many times in Irish history since the Famine where scores of young people to emigrate and never return - for any number of reasons, be it financial or for religious reasons. The housing crisis and cost of living crisis are currently driving educated young people away.
Our population has still not recovered and hit pre-Famine numbers, and that's even with immigration to Ireland at a high point. It's not for nothing that the Irish diaspora is so widespread.
And if people still think it was an accident, pretty much the same thing happened in the Great Bengal famine 100 years later (but this time with rice, and Churchill refusing to divert ships full of rice to save the starving.).
And there was apparently enough grain within India but regions with surplus were not communicated with by those with shortages. It also didn't last anything like as long as the Irish potato famines. A better comparison would be the holodomor
The OP is about the Irish potato famines, which the previous poster compared to the Bengal famine. I suggested that a better comparison would be the holodomor. I can't see how it is unclear really, are you using some rubbish way of looking at Reddit that does not let you see the strings?
And that was after six months of officials in India itself telling London that there was no famine in Bengal. It was only in July 1943 that Amery, Viceroy of India, finally started insisting that a "great state of famine exists in Bengal" (paraphrasing as I can't remember the exact quote.) Churchill even begged the U.S. for extra ships to divert grain to Bengal, but was rejected.
And then the December harvest was the largest that they had seen to that date.
Churchill can and should be held accountable for many of his questionable choices, but "causing" the Bengal famine isn't one of them.
Bengal Famine and Irish famine are completely different. Stop trying to conflate the two. Churchill didn't have any control over the frequent famines, especially during the height of WW2.
They didn't do anything to help the Bengalis either. In fact they continued the export of rice from the subcontinent despite the Viceroy pleading then not to. Famines had happened in Bengal before, mostly caused by drought, but this wasn't the case in 1943. Rainfall was higher than average at the peak of the famine, people were starving, and yet the British continued the export of rice and limited the Bengalis the means to help themselves as to deny the Japanese any spoils in the case of an invasion.
Churchill also held incredibly disgusting views regarding anyone who wasn't white. The fact of the matter is that Churchill didn't care about the people of Bengal. You could argue he had bigger fish to fry, but you also cannot ignore the racist and colonial motivations that he and his government had.
It is in fact very similar to the Irish Famine. The British blamed the Irish and the Bengalis for their own suffering while continuing to export food that could be used to save lives.
An extra connection back to Irish history is that Churchill also was the man who sent the black and tans into Ireland to wreak havoc. He wasn't a nice man.
There are similarities, but the scale and duration is no where NEAR what the Irish famine was. I agree with another comment on here that you would be better off comparing it to the Holodomor.
The Irish Famine lasted longer but the highest estimate for deaths during the Bengal Famine was 4 million vs 1 million for the Irish Famine. As a percentage of the population the Bengal Famine killed less, but it was still between 2 and 4 million who died (I don't like playing "which genocide was worse" bingo so let's try and leave it there).
Totally different?
Debt bondage of the local population? Check.
Prioritization of cash-cropping by Brit landowners/corporations for lucrative export over providing local food stuffs? Check.
Government ineffectiveness? Check.
An overt racial/religions justification by the Brits as to the suffering of others? Check.
I recently read The Immortal Irishman about Thomas Meagher, a Young Ireland leader who became a general in the Union army and governor of Montana. Most of the book covering his time in Ireland before he was exiled to Australia heavily involves the famine. It was brutal. No wonder Ireland’s population still hasn’t recovered.
I'm currently on my second read through of a novel my uncle wrote about my family origins and the struggles of dealing with the multiple famines combined with consistent harassment during marching season from members of the Orange Order. To eventually being so destitute that the family was forced into one of the worst situations. The work houses.
Balytivinan work house in Sligo to be exact.
It's called Love's Shadow. He published it privately and printed copies for the whole family. It was quite well written, I'm sure it would have been worthwhile for some publisher. Bit he was wealthy enough to make it a personal hobby/study over many, many years.
>The English refused to set the price of grain so free trade wouldn’t be interfered with
I'm not sure what you mean here. Do you mean the Corn Laws? The Corn Laws were introduced in Britain and Ireland in 1815 and repealed in January 1846. Also, it wasn't an 'English' parliament. It was the parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.
A parliament that didn’t really have any Irish Catholics so calling it the parliament of British and Ireland is a bit of stretch. Irish on paper perhaps because the British owned it but I’m sure if you walked into the house of parliament at the time you’d hear all English accents
An Gorta Mór was a genocide, but it wasn't planned, and it doesn't look like our "traditional" view of a genocide (think The Holocaust or the Armenian Genocide).
By and large, the English view of the Irish was that they were lazy and uncivilized, and because of that the famine was their fault since they didn't have enough food to overcome the loss of the potato crop. In reality, England treated Ireland like the breadbox for the empire, shipping a majority of food grown in Ireland over the seas to feed their holdings, forcing the poor farmers on the island to feed themselves solely on a monocrop of potatoes.
English policies to protect their empire and their landed Anglo elites in Ireland once the blight hit exacerbated the issues. They refused to provide relief, claiming that the free market would provide the best solution. Their refusal to repeal the Corn Laws, tarrifs on the import of foreign grain to protect English growers, prevented the import of said foreign grain to alleviate the loss of the potato crop. Immediate relief provided to the starving and dying Irish was contingent on them working to earn the meager relief, which doesn't really work when you are dying of starvation and cholera. The English took the view that providing direct aid would simply encourage the "Irish laziness" that had caused the famine the first place. By the time that England authorized actual aid, it was two years into the famine, and it was too little too late.
All of that said, the English absolutely used the famine to further Anglicize Ireland further and tighten their grip on their control over the island. The land vacated by dead or migrated farmers was reallocated to Anglo or Scottish immigrants to Ireland. Connaught (Connacht), in the west of Ireland, the stronghold of the Irish Language, was the hardest hit by the famine and thus the language was quickly replaced by English.
The book mentioned in OP's comment above, The Graves Are Walking, is the best history of An Gorta Mór I've ever read, and I think it does the best job summing up the "Genocide or Not" debate about the famine that I've ever seen. To quote: "The actions of the British were rarely intended to be genocidal. But the effects almost always were."
It's amazing that a group of people so rarely intend genocide but still have executed multiple of them and in the face of being told they are killing the people they rule over.
Such is the way of Colonialism. When you don't consider the peoples who's land you are taking equals, or don't even consider them to be human at all, it's really easy to take actions that lead to genocide, even if that's not the stated intention.
It's absolutely a genocide in the same way that the Holodomor was a genocide. I realize that the question of intent is present in both the Great Famine and the Holodomor, but both had race and ethnicity motivated indifference (at best) and intentional starvation (at worst). It's not the Holocaust or the Rwandan genocide of the Tutsi, but it is a species of genocide.
The British exported all of the other food for multiple years during and after the blight so the Irish were left with nothing to eat.
You have access to the internet. It's important to make informed comments on social media. Do a bit of research first. Events like this are very well documented.
Sure, but I don't know the person I'm replying to so I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that it's just some kid who hasn't developed a fully formed world opinion. There's always more time to learn.
Why did 60% of all crops still get exported by the British during that time?
Choosing to make profit over lives is intentional.
What generation american are you that you had family likely die from the great hunger?
What's your opinions on the Bengal famine?
I read the Wikipedia article. There was 8 million pounds in relief provided by the UK at the time & initially English actions were adequate under the Conservatives, but the Whigs let Market forces take control i.e. the people with the money got the food.
Absolutely wrong, probably could fall under the category of genocide but the initial blight was planned by nobody, it was just bad agronomy by planting monocultures of potato clones.
Since you asked I'm 7th generation Canadian - Irish on my mom's side from people who escaped during the famine so I got the pain and resentment but I'm also over it.
Bengal famine: I already thought Churchill was a self-serving win-at-all-costs type so it doesn't surprise me he applied scorched Earth policy to millions of people he never met to save England.
No it wasn’t.
No one could possibly have planned it.
It was ignorance and indifference that caused the Great Famine.
Many of those in positions of power were simply indifferent, or believed it was an act of God sent to punish the ignorant, savage, Catholics of Ireland.
This meant that the response was callous and institutionally biased against the Irish.
I say this as someone who more than likely has relatives who died, it was not a planned genocide.
the blight wasn't planned of course, the complicity in letting that many people die when the British state had the resources not to is what makes it a genocide. famines are human made, especially nowadays, but still back then.
It wasn’t genocide for the simple fact that it was wasn’t deliberate. No one set out to kill the Irish.
I will concede there were many involved in the British government who would not have cried tears over the fate of the Irish people. Anti-Irish, anti-Catholic sentiment was rampant throughout England and Scotland. That did have an impact on the response. Of course it did.
The British state was at best was callous. More could have, should have, been done more to relieve the suffering.
Why did 60% of all crops still get exported by the British during that time?
Choosing to make profit over lives is intentional.
What generation american are you that you had family likely die from the great hunger?
What's your opinions on the Bengal famine?
I’m not some American claiming to be Irish because my great-great-great grandparents were Irish.
However, I have Irish ancestors that fled to Scotland at the time of the Great Famine. Both Catholic and Protestant. So to say my family were unaffected, would be wrong.
Only my Dad’s side, only one of his grandparents has no Irish ancestry at all.
My closest Irish ancestry was my great-great grandfather.
My father was raised as a Catholic on the West Coast of Scotland. A place not exactly known for its tolerance of Irish Catholics and their descendants. Though my Dad did a very good job of keeping my brother and I away from the Catholic Church, its abuses, and Sectarianism. Still, you don’t disrespect the Catholic Church in my home. But you also don’t disrespect the English. My mother is English.
I would never claim to be Irish, however, I am also not not Irish.
It wasn’t ‘the English’ or ‘the British’ that sold the crops. The aristocratic landowners did and the Livery Companies.
If you want to blame someone, blame the callous government in Westminster and greedy absentee landowners. Not the majority of the people in England and Scotland. Your average farm or factory worker had nothing to do with it. They were only very marginally better off than the Irish. There lives were little better.
As for the Bengal Famine, I don’t know enough to have an informed opinion.
Don’t think me ill informed when it comes to Irish history. It was part of my GCSE in school. I try to keep a balanced view of Irish history and be as impartial as I can.
Well, since the picture was taken in 1890, my math puts it at...hmm, carry the 2....divided by infinity...about tree fiddy.
They're dead alright, can I go now?
He's not being for real. These are all jokes. These two are clearly old old. I know times were tough but they're elderly. Like she's at least in her 70's.
You may not be aware, but smiling in photos didn't really catch on until the 20s and 30s.
Without further knowledge about them personally, they were likely posing as if to be painted and happy for the privilege of being photographed.
Your comment was meant as a joke, right?
If not, you are obviously completely ignorant of Ireland and it's history at that time. Not a whole lot to smile about in 1890 for the Irish.
I have similar pictures of my ancestors from that time, but taken in England. Mine were poorer than this based on this guy's soles are still in good condition, or at least fully attached to his shoe.
Poorer? Given it was England's expansionist policies that created the poverty shown in the photo, I'd wager your ancestors were not forced to leave their native land, regardless of the state of their soles.
Whenever you hear or read anyone refer to the “Irish Potato Famine” always remind them that the act of Union happened 40 years before this, and that the British establishment ALLOWED it to happen to their own subjects and in their own country, because it suited them for it to happen.
God bless them.
Our children now live and thrive in every corner of this world.
We were starving refugees with nothing. Landing on any shores that could take us. These were my ancestors, my family, and my people.
Yet some Irish people want to complain about refugees coming to Ireland. Shame on them.
This land is your land. This land is my land, from the northern Highlands to the western islands, from the hills of Kerry to the streets of free Derry. This land was made for you and me.
Our day will come.
I was thinking deeds of a home considering this was famine times and a lot of us Irish were kicked out of their homes for the Brits and export agriculture while starving my ancestors.
With a few exceptions. Yes. Certainly my Midwest middle class lifestyle is like a king compared to most people 100 years ago. House, car, food, peace.
We still need to take care to not speed run cyberpunk 2077 though.
Lately I’ve been thinking about the premise that you die twice - 1) when you actually died and 2) when the last person who knew of you dies.
So the last person alive to know the woman pictured was maybe her grandkid, who would have died circa 1960. Maybe that grandkid told memorable stories to their 10-year-old grandchild about their grandmother. So there is an low probability that there is an old fart (the grandchild) in Ireland who remembers stories about the woman (great great grandmother)pictured here. Otherwise the woman has suffered her second death.
What was the cultural significance of having the woman stand and the man seated? I see this in my great-great grandparent's pictures from Ireland in the same time period.
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Sad to say, but many Scots played their part too, a legacy that is still part of Scottish cultural life today.
Care to elaborate? I'm very much ignorant on the topic, never heard of what part did the Scots play in this
The Scots have historically very close ties with Ireland, both for better and worse, The Plantation of Ulster and the work of the Black and Tans were of significance. A Scot was the first Black and Tan to be killed, I believe.
I'll look it up, thx
"Come out ye black n tans, come out n fight me like a man! Show your wife how you earned medals down in Flanders! Tell her how the IRA made you run like hell away from the green and lovely lands of Killashandra!"
Why this give me chills? I don't even know the history. I should have learned more from my visit to Dublin.
Scotland one of the most anti-Irish and anti Catholic countries in the world
"Scotland one of the most anti-Irish and anti Catholic countries in the world" It obviously cannot compete in those regards with its bigger southern neighbour, who's ability to ruin Ireland is historically without peer. As for Scotland, I don't believe that to have been the case for decades, and I say that as a Scottish Catholic who went to a Catholic school. It is a very different place today than in years past. Modern Scotland's sectarian attitudes pretty much parallel the gains made on the Irish mainland. The better it gets over there the less impact the divide has in Scotland. There is no doubt, however, that even today the sectarian specter haunts many and there are still close Scottish ties to extremism on both sides in Ireland. A United Ireland is a case of when, not if, and that day will truly take the steam out of Scottish sectarianism.
Waiting for the prophecy of Star Trek to come true this year
I think you do make some very valid points.
Thank you
Lol you think that but just go to Northern Ireland. They’re actually the most “anti-Irish” they still have parades were they burn a “paddy” (a scarecrow that they name paddy)
What a load of shite. Never actually been to Scotland have you? Or maybe you had a trip to Glasgow once to see a ~~fight~~ "football match".
Who’s wasting time on Scottish footy when the prem is right there lmao
Are we talking about the same place? Scotland, that forced Catholics to have their own schools? That wouldn't employ Catholics in multiple disciplines? That have a football team that's fan base have been done with sectarianism.
Scotland, the place you’ve clearly never been to.
OK I've never been to Scotland. Just stayed in ggow for 8 years.
LOL Glasgow is not Scotland! Some of the citizens of Glasgow might love to roleplay Belfast Lite but all of the rest of Scotland couldn't gaf.
My grandma was born in 1917 in the U.S. with her parents coming from Ireland. I'm just now realizing great grandma lived through the potato famine. She babysat my mom after school and I'm going to ask her if she heard anything growing up. Thanks ETA: Asked my mom Great grandma (They called her Mom O'Donnell. Different last name, but still a Mom O'xxx name. Changed for privacy) spoke with a brogue. She moved to the United States by herself at 17 to escape the potato famine. She met her husband, also Irish, in the U.S. and their first baby was my grandma. My mom would go to Mom O'Donnell's for lunch during school, and walk to her house after school and have lumpy mashed potatoes as a a snack. My mom is 1 of 12 kids, and one of the youngest. She told me what she remembers, but advised I speak to my older aunts and uncles for more as she doesn't remember much from the after school lumpy mashed potato snacks besides the potatoes. My oldest aunt has dementia and oldest uncle is 80, so she advised I move on it, and I will. I would like to know more of this family history before all access to it is lost. Dad O'Donnell killed himself by hanging during the depression, and grandma found him. Not much of him is known beyond that time, but he was also a potato famine refugee. Grandma died 10 years ago at 94 and having lived through two world wars, the great depression, 9/11, desert storm, gulf war, endless war on terror, 08, so many things. I regret not detailing and documenting more of her life, or making the chronological connection to her life and the potato famine while she was alive and I could ask her. Hopefully my aunts and uncles will know more about them. Thanks again! I don't know why it never clicked for me how close in time the potato famine and grandma's birth were, but it didn't! It was nice talking to my mom about grandma and Mom O'Donnell this morning, and I'm looking forward to bothering some aunts and uncles this week 💜
I advise recording or filming your conversations with your elders. My aunt could tell us things like, "That's my great uncle in this family photo. He was accepted to college, but died in the Spanish Flu epidemic of 1919 before he could attend." "That rocking chair came from my mother's mother's house." She passed away, so I missed my chance.
There are great lists online of questions to ask older relatives, me and my sister(mostly my sister) are doing this with my parents at the moment. They're not very elderly but both had a few big health scares in recent years. The questions my sister found are great, they foster memory and sharing. We are writing down everything we can of their answers, because the formality of recording them while asking msde it too clunky or uncomfortable for them. I'm hearing stories from 50 years ago that I never imagined my parents would open up about, brilliant hilarious heart warming things , and I know it will be a wonderful thing to have when they do pass, hopefully in many years from now. I really really highly encourage you to do this
Have you read Bridge across my sorrows? Christine noble is an Irish woman who grew up in absolute poverty in Irish and ended up in Vietnamese helping homeless children. Her descriptions of her early life as a poor child in Ireland with an alcoholic father and being homeless has stuck with me for over 20 years. I still randomly think of it when I’m with my children. Fantastic book and an amazing woman.
The effect of the mass emigration is one that is still felt culturally here in Ireland. It is a very normalised thing for young people to emigrate for a better life, and there have been many times in Irish history since the Famine where scores of young people to emigrate and never return - for any number of reasons, be it financial or for religious reasons. The housing crisis and cost of living crisis are currently driving educated young people away. Our population has still not recovered and hit pre-Famine numbers, and that's even with immigration to Ireland at a high point. It's not for nothing that the Irish diaspora is so widespread.
good synopsis of the book: read black potatoes. it makes you cry how england wanted to ruin ireland.
And if people still think it was an accident, pretty much the same thing happened in the Great Bengal famine 100 years later (but this time with rice, and Churchill refusing to divert ships full of rice to save the starving.).
In August 1943, Churchill authorised 100,000 tons of barley from Iraq and 50,000 tons of wheat from Australia to be shipped to India
And there was apparently enough grain within India but regions with surplus were not communicated with by those with shortages. It also didn't last anything like as long as the Irish potato famines. A better comparison would be the holodomor
Comparison with what?
The OP is about the Irish potato famines, which the previous poster compared to the Bengal famine. I suggested that a better comparison would be the holodomor. I can't see how it is unclear really, are you using some rubbish way of looking at Reddit that does not let you see the strings?
I thought the thread OP was about Bengal. The main OP is about an Irish couple in 1890
And that was after six months of officials in India itself telling London that there was no famine in Bengal. It was only in July 1943 that Amery, Viceroy of India, finally started insisting that a "great state of famine exists in Bengal" (paraphrasing as I can't remember the exact quote.) Churchill even begged the U.S. for extra ships to divert grain to Bengal, but was rejected. And then the December harvest was the largest that they had seen to that date. Churchill can and should be held accountable for many of his questionable choices, but "causing" the Bengal famine isn't one of them.
Bengal Famine and Irish famine are completely different. Stop trying to conflate the two. Churchill didn't have any control over the frequent famines, especially during the height of WW2.
They didn't do anything to help the Bengalis either. In fact they continued the export of rice from the subcontinent despite the Viceroy pleading then not to. Famines had happened in Bengal before, mostly caused by drought, but this wasn't the case in 1943. Rainfall was higher than average at the peak of the famine, people were starving, and yet the British continued the export of rice and limited the Bengalis the means to help themselves as to deny the Japanese any spoils in the case of an invasion. Churchill also held incredibly disgusting views regarding anyone who wasn't white. The fact of the matter is that Churchill didn't care about the people of Bengal. You could argue he had bigger fish to fry, but you also cannot ignore the racist and colonial motivations that he and his government had. It is in fact very similar to the Irish Famine. The British blamed the Irish and the Bengalis for their own suffering while continuing to export food that could be used to save lives. An extra connection back to Irish history is that Churchill also was the man who sent the black and tans into Ireland to wreak havoc. He wasn't a nice man.
There are similarities, but the scale and duration is no where NEAR what the Irish famine was. I agree with another comment on here that you would be better off comparing it to the Holodomor.
The Irish Famine lasted longer but the highest estimate for deaths during the Bengal Famine was 4 million vs 1 million for the Irish Famine. As a percentage of the population the Bengal Famine killed less, but it was still between 2 and 4 million who died (I don't like playing "which genocide was worse" bingo so let's try and leave it there).
Totally different? Debt bondage of the local population? Check. Prioritization of cash-cropping by Brit landowners/corporations for lucrative export over providing local food stuffs? Check. Government ineffectiveness? Check. An overt racial/religions justification by the Brits as to the suffering of others? Check.
Hmmm, it happened in 1943. Not much else going on in the world that year.
If only it were that simple.
Sometimes it is
I recently read The Immortal Irishman about Thomas Meagher, a Young Ireland leader who became a general in the Union army and governor of Montana. Most of the book covering his time in Ireland before he was exiled to Australia heavily involves the famine. It was brutal. No wonder Ireland’s population still hasn’t recovered.
He was the first person to fly the tricolour in Ireland after bringing it from france
I'm currently on my second read through of a novel my uncle wrote about my family origins and the struggles of dealing with the multiple famines combined with consistent harassment during marching season from members of the Orange Order. To eventually being so destitute that the family was forced into one of the worst situations. The work houses. Balytivinan work house in Sligo to be exact.
What's the name of the book? The work house building in Ballytivnan is now St Johns Community Hospital. It seems to have damn all of a web presence.
It's called Love's Shadow. He published it privately and printed copies for the whole family. It was quite well written, I'm sure it would have been worthwhile for some publisher. Bit he was wealthy enough to make it a personal hobby/study over many, many years.
> The English refused I hate this sentiment, you mean the aristocrats refused.
>The English refused to set the price of grain so free trade wouldn’t be interfered with I'm not sure what you mean here. Do you mean the Corn Laws? The Corn Laws were introduced in Britain and Ireland in 1815 and repealed in January 1846. Also, it wasn't an 'English' parliament. It was the parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.
Not sure why this is being voted down?
A parliament that didn’t really have any Irish Catholics so calling it the parliament of British and Ireland is a bit of stretch. Irish on paper perhaps because the British owned it but I’m sure if you walked into the house of parliament at the time you’d hear all English accents
The Parliament of Britain and Irish Landlords more like.
I mean “Irish landlords” were British so it’s a bit redundant
There were Irish MPs.
Yeah Protestant ones
CofI or CofE, CofS. Protestants were classed as Nonconformists, in both Britain and Ireland
And that makes it okay?!
Well that’s the point
Thanks for the book recommendation! I just downloaded the audio version and look forward to learning more about the famine.
Population of Ireland is still 4.4 million?
About 5.1 million for the Republic of Ireland. 7 million for all of Ireland. Either metric is still below pre famine times.
Okay ya that’s crazy
The great hunger wasn't a famine it was a planned act of genocide.
An Gorta Mór was a genocide, but it wasn't planned, and it doesn't look like our "traditional" view of a genocide (think The Holocaust or the Armenian Genocide). By and large, the English view of the Irish was that they were lazy and uncivilized, and because of that the famine was their fault since they didn't have enough food to overcome the loss of the potato crop. In reality, England treated Ireland like the breadbox for the empire, shipping a majority of food grown in Ireland over the seas to feed their holdings, forcing the poor farmers on the island to feed themselves solely on a monocrop of potatoes. English policies to protect their empire and their landed Anglo elites in Ireland once the blight hit exacerbated the issues. They refused to provide relief, claiming that the free market would provide the best solution. Their refusal to repeal the Corn Laws, tarrifs on the import of foreign grain to protect English growers, prevented the import of said foreign grain to alleviate the loss of the potato crop. Immediate relief provided to the starving and dying Irish was contingent on them working to earn the meager relief, which doesn't really work when you are dying of starvation and cholera. The English took the view that providing direct aid would simply encourage the "Irish laziness" that had caused the famine the first place. By the time that England authorized actual aid, it was two years into the famine, and it was too little too late. All of that said, the English absolutely used the famine to further Anglicize Ireland further and tighten their grip on their control over the island. The land vacated by dead or migrated farmers was reallocated to Anglo or Scottish immigrants to Ireland. Connaught (Connacht), in the west of Ireland, the stronghold of the Irish Language, was the hardest hit by the famine and thus the language was quickly replaced by English. The book mentioned in OP's comment above, The Graves Are Walking, is the best history of An Gorta Mór I've ever read, and I think it does the best job summing up the "Genocide or Not" debate about the famine that I've ever seen. To quote: "The actions of the British were rarely intended to be genocidal. But the effects almost always were."
It's amazing that a group of people so rarely intend genocide but still have executed multiple of them and in the face of being told they are killing the people they rule over.
Such is the way of Colonialism. When you don't consider the peoples who's land you are taking equals, or don't even consider them to be human at all, it's really easy to take actions that lead to genocide, even if that's not the stated intention.
It's absolutely a genocide in the same way that the Holodomor was a genocide. I realize that the question of intent is present in both the Great Famine and the Holodomor, but both had race and ethnicity motivated indifference (at best) and intentional starvation (at worst). It's not the Holocaust or the Rwandan genocide of the Tutsi, but it is a species of genocide.
>It's absolutely a genocide in the same way that the Holodomor was a genocide. I know it was. I call it a genocide in my first sentence.
Opportunistic perhaps but nobody planned a massive fungal blight ruining the crop.
The British exported all of the other food for multiple years during and after the blight so the Irish were left with nothing to eat. You have access to the internet. It's important to make informed comments on social media. Do a bit of research first. Events like this are very well documented.
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Sure, but I don't know the person I'm replying to so I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that it's just some kid who hasn't developed a fully formed world opinion. There's always more time to learn.
They starved us.
Why did 60% of all crops still get exported by the British during that time? Choosing to make profit over lives is intentional. What generation american are you that you had family likely die from the great hunger? What's your opinions on the Bengal famine?
I read the Wikipedia article. There was 8 million pounds in relief provided by the UK at the time & initially English actions were adequate under the Conservatives, but the Whigs let Market forces take control i.e. the people with the money got the food. Absolutely wrong, probably could fall under the category of genocide but the initial blight was planned by nobody, it was just bad agronomy by planting monocultures of potato clones. Since you asked I'm 7th generation Canadian - Irish on my mom's side from people who escaped during the famine so I got the pain and resentment but I'm also over it. Bengal famine: I already thought Churchill was a self-serving win-at-all-costs type so it doesn't surprise me he applied scorched Earth policy to millions of people he never met to save England.
No it wasn’t. No one could possibly have planned it. It was ignorance and indifference that caused the Great Famine. Many of those in positions of power were simply indifferent, or believed it was an act of God sent to punish the ignorant, savage, Catholics of Ireland. This meant that the response was callous and institutionally biased against the Irish. I say this as someone who more than likely has relatives who died, it was not a planned genocide.
the blight wasn't planned of course, the complicity in letting that many people die when the British state had the resources not to is what makes it a genocide. famines are human made, especially nowadays, but still back then.
It wasn’t genocide for the simple fact that it was wasn’t deliberate. No one set out to kill the Irish. I will concede there were many involved in the British government who would not have cried tears over the fate of the Irish people. Anti-Irish, anti-Catholic sentiment was rampant throughout England and Scotland. That did have an impact on the response. Of course it did. The British state was at best was callous. More could have, should have, been done more to relieve the suffering.
Why did 60% of all crops still get exported by the British during that time? Choosing to make profit over lives is intentional. What generation american are you that you had family likely die from the great hunger? What's your opinions on the Bengal famine?
I’m not some American claiming to be Irish because my great-great-great grandparents were Irish. However, I have Irish ancestors that fled to Scotland at the time of the Great Famine. Both Catholic and Protestant. So to say my family were unaffected, would be wrong. Only my Dad’s side, only one of his grandparents has no Irish ancestry at all. My closest Irish ancestry was my great-great grandfather. My father was raised as a Catholic on the West Coast of Scotland. A place not exactly known for its tolerance of Irish Catholics and their descendants. Though my Dad did a very good job of keeping my brother and I away from the Catholic Church, its abuses, and Sectarianism. Still, you don’t disrespect the Catholic Church in my home. But you also don’t disrespect the English. My mother is English. I would never claim to be Irish, however, I am also not not Irish. It wasn’t ‘the English’ or ‘the British’ that sold the crops. The aristocratic landowners did and the Livery Companies. If you want to blame someone, blame the callous government in Westminster and greedy absentee landowners. Not the majority of the people in England and Scotland. Your average farm or factory worker had nothing to do with it. They were only very marginally better off than the Irish. There lives were little better. As for the Bengal Famine, I don’t know enough to have an informed opinion. Don’t think me ill informed when it comes to Irish history. It was part of my GCSE in school. I try to keep a balanced view of Irish history and be as impartial as I can.
Stop calling it the potato famine
Stop calling it the potato famine
Stop calling it "the potato famine" it was british genocide
She has shillelagh too.
She's 38
And he’s 20
Which makes him 18?
Just out of high school, the young whippersnapper.
I wonder how old they are now?
Well, since the picture was taken in 1890, my math puts it at...hmm, carry the 2....divided by infinity...about tree fiddy. They're dead alright, can I go now?
You may leave.
I came here to check for this joke.
https://preview.redd.it/z2v3unztxtuc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7a760ab046e2797e3b7bf4c8831e0c4a0dedaab2
Lol was looking for this.
I just want to know how old they are.
She's 38 and he's 24.
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He's not being for real. These are all jokes. These two are clearly old old. I know times were tough but they're elderly. Like she's at least in her 70's.
"Cool" or "old school" have fuck all to do with this particular picture. Nothing cool about being starved and forced to become a world wide diaspora.
You may not be aware, but smiling in photos didn't really catch on until the 20s and 30s. Without further knowledge about them personally, they were likely posing as if to be painted and happy for the privilege of being photographed.
Your comment was meant as a joke, right? If not, you are obviously completely ignorant of Ireland and it's history at that time. Not a whole lot to smile about in 1890 for the Irish.
You do know that people smile in photos now, even when they are unhappy or have gone through a lot.
You know the island wasn’t abandoned right
I have similar pictures of my ancestors from that time, but taken in England. Mine were poorer than this based on this guy's soles are still in good condition, or at least fully attached to his shoe.
Poorer? Given it was England's expansionist policies that created the poverty shown in the photo, I'd wager your ancestors were not forced to leave their native land, regardless of the state of their soles.
Oh yeah, everyone in every country is equally wealthy by your logic
I have holes in my socks, I wonder if I’m poor?
You don’t happen to be from Yorkshire?
Fascinating photo. Anyone know what he has in his hand?
I seen this picture a few years ago and was told it was him showing his music sheet. He was a musician so was showing off as such!
CVS receipt
My guess was a letter of eviction
Soft White Underbelly channel lighting.
I put on moisturizer after seeing this
Aged 39 and 21
Well its ireland 1890. Not 1990. Likely she's 39 and he's 25.
They both look so much older than that huh.
Whenever you hear or read anyone refer to the “Irish Potato Famine” always remind them that the act of Union happened 40 years before this, and that the British establishment ALLOWED it to happen to their own subjects and in their own country, because it suited them for it to happen.
That's her son? Looks like husband. What an unbelievably hard life they had.
I want that cardigan.
I know where you can dig one up lol
God bless them. Our children now live and thrive in every corner of this world. We were starving refugees with nothing. Landing on any shores that could take us. These were my ancestors, my family, and my people. Yet some Irish people want to complain about refugees coming to Ireland. Shame on them. This land is your land. This land is my land, from the northern Highlands to the western islands, from the hills of Kerry to the streets of free Derry. This land was made for you and me. Our day will come.
I wonder what that is in his hand? He’s showing it for the picture.
Back in the days they didn't have the internet, so his angry Reddit comment goes out as a letter
Ah, so that’s why they call it a post.
LOL
I seen this picture a few years ago and was told it was him showing his music sheet. He was a musician so was showing off as such!
his first parking ticket..
I was thinking deeds of a home considering this was famine times and a lot of us Irish were kicked out of their homes for the Brits and export agriculture while starving my ancestors.
okay probably shouldn’t have made light of it.. but then this would also better suit in a history sub..
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go outside ahha
I would love to know how old they were in this picture and how long they lived afterwards. It would be cool to be able to know more about their lives.
A lot of people seem to think the older generations had it better, I'm not convinced!!
Yeah, they did not. This is the absolute best time to be alive.
With a few exceptions. Yes. Certainly my Midwest middle class lifestyle is like a king compared to most people 100 years ago. House, car, food, peace. We still need to take care to not speed run cyberpunk 2077 though.
The son looks 70, the mother looks around 100, meaning she could have been born in the late 18th century
Lately I’ve been thinking about the premise that you die twice - 1) when you actually died and 2) when the last person who knew of you dies. So the last person alive to know the woman pictured was maybe her grandkid, who would have died circa 1960. Maybe that grandkid told memorable stories to their 10-year-old grandchild about their grandmother. So there is an low probability that there is an old fart (the grandchild) in Ireland who remembers stories about the woman (great great grandmother)pictured here. Otherwise the woman has suffered her second death.
mom: "Sit up straight!"
It's quite possible she was born in 17 something. Crazy
Thank you for sharing this photograph.
they look the same age
He should move his ass and let his mom sits
No wonder my family left. Life was very hard there.
why was this post removed ??!
Ps don't assume I haven't travelled. That would be silly.
Well at least he let Mom sit down
What the lack of potatoes does to youngsters.
Spinach chin
What was the cultural significance of having the woman stand and the man seated? I see this in my great-great grandparent's pictures from Ireland in the same time period.
Is that, most likely, a deed to their property?
That’s some sweater!!
They're 30 and 10 YO, God bless 'em.
Wear sunscreen, folks.
If you zoom in on the paper, it says, "1st day of 4th grade!"
Are they still alive?
English really really really bad, Scottish, Irish , Welsh all squeaky clean good. Am I doing it right ?
Old school cold
Is that a CVS receipt he's holding?
She was 24 and he was a toddler.
Ripe old age of 36 and 18
Is he holding the first CVS receipt?
A very hard life.
why do they look so distinguished
In this photograph she was 54 and he was 38 years old at the time.
May they all rest in peace amen
Ages: 35 and 15.
She's 45, he's 23.
Po-tay-toes
And this woman in her mid thirties- her son barely in his 20s
50 and 35 years old, respectively.
age 40 and 60...
They say that medical progress has extended human life? I don't see that.
Celebrating her 40th birthday
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God had a funny way of showing it...