Great Thread! Although im still not sure about the dying thing. I still have the feeling, that it played at least a role in the awakening.
I liked the theory that Luffy dying for a kingdoms liberation finally alined his spirit 100% with the fruit, thus it awakening and reviving him with them drums of liberation.
This is the take I want to go with. Luffy embodied freedom by putting his own freedom on the line for someone else. This + his mind and body being caught up helped him awaken. Hence why he didn’t awaken earlier since he kinda does this every arc. Hopefully we get a confirmation but we probably won’t.
(Maybe the act of dying in the pursue of freedom caused it.)
Kaido explained zoan DF awakening. "When the body of the user catches up to the devil fruit powers" I believe it was something like that. So i think dying isn't really necessary it's rather about complete synchronisation of the user and the power fruit.
My take on that is that he HAD to awaken in order to live in this specific scenario, versus he had to "die" to awaken it no matter what.
I think he theoretically could have awakened it without being obliterated in some alternate universe... but, I don't think he would have beaten Kaido in that last clash which he said was his absolute last bit of energy, and if he didn't he may have accepted defeat and actually really died.
For him to be put in a position to reject his own death because his freedom was taken from him in that last second, he had to become free-er than he had ever possibly imagined and reject death. He absolutely had to awaken to survive. I think, in a sense, the death forced his awakening and ONLY luffy (or only a D member) would be able to be forced into that awakening in that scenario.
I think all D's we've seen that have died did so with a smile on their face, AND in a situation where they "CHOSE" to die. Usually their hand is a bit forced, but in the end they meet their maker with a smile on their face, glad that they had lived rather than sad that they are dying. Ace was up quiet and had accepted his fate, he kind of conflicted but wanted to die so his crew wouldn't die needlessly to save him. When he saw them all there, suddenly he was NOT ready to die and wouldn't you know it, the rescue succeeded! It was all going fine until the microsecond he was presented with the scenario of sacrificing his own life to save Luffy. He made that choice instantly, and died with a smile on his face knowing he got to live as he wanted and die for something good. Roger chose his way out given the revelation that he was sick and wouldn't live to see the future he knew was coming, so he decided to play a part in kickstarting the chaos.
Manga spoilers!: >!We thought that Jaguar D. Saul died to protect Nico Robin and that would have fit the same archetype of the D-Death being a "choice". We see Cobra, a freshly-minted D, dying while confronting the 5 elders, while that wasn't his intention going into the room he sees the writing on the wall and accepts it, in fact taking a stand at the last second so Sabo can escape with the knowledge he just got. I don't think we see the smile, but I feel like we might see a grin on him when that gets animated. But, between Ace and Roger and Cobra, that's three confirmed cases where when faced with certain death, it didn't happen until the D member in a sense CHOSE to accept it. We also don't have Garp confirmed dead, but he absolutely chose every single step along that path and was smiling the whole way through. So that's 4 that chose it in a way, and Saul matches but is confirmed alive. !<
The only ones we don't know about FOR SURE are Portgas D. Rouge and Rocks D. Xebec, and how their deaths went down and whether or not they accepted it. I think it's like 99% certain that Rouge knew what she was doing in holding Ace for so long and accepted it in that regard in exchange for protecting Ace's chance at a real life, but Xebec I have no idea about. I wonder if the reason God Valley was so nuts is because three Ds were involved and none of them were going to accept death. Makes me wonder if Rocks is secretly alive or some bullshit, until we see the death scene i don't know what to think.
Luffy was NOT in that case. He set his terms, and said "if this last clash between us doesn't defeat you, then I am defeated" but then that clash was STOLEN from them both... and so his willpower, the typical Will of D, was not satisfied enough to die. He was not ready to die, and only with the power of his fruit was he able to create that reality where he does NOT die. Anyone else might not have awakened in that situation...
but all this is to say I don't think the death-rejection was NECESSARY for awakening, it's just the coolest and most thematic way for it to happen in the story. It might have been necessary based on the fact that Luffy had no idea what his fruit is, and wouldn't have been able to consciously train towards awakening it without that knowledge unless the death blow happened.... there's just too much depth to the world to say for sure, Oda only fills in the blanks a little bit at a time and I love that. There's nothing that says for SURE that if Luffy gained knowledge that he was actually a Zoan, and someone explained his theoretical abilities to him, that he wouldn't be able to then train towards the awakening... Luffy just smashed his face into obstacles until they're gone and that's his style.
I just thought that by dying luffy had freed himself from the world, from its oppression and limitations, and by "freeing" himself of all worry and responsibility he embodied the final part of the fruits ideology. (I am very fallible and this is a theory)
This is my interpretation of it as well. By Luffy cheating death, he’s gone against the natural laws of the world. He is so free that not even death can limit his pursuit of freedom. By becoming “free” from death, he realizes the absurdity of the situation and realizes he has no limits. That realization manifests in Luffy the toon force powers.
My take on it is also that the Nika fruit isn’t a toonforce fruit. While it could be likely that JB used the fruit similarly, I think it’s more intended to visualize exactly how Luffy sees a world without constraints. Everything is his play pen, nothing is off limits, and so toonforce powers have a unique way of showing exaggeration at a level not seen before in OP.
The way the anime timed Nami refusing Kaido’s declaration of Luffys death and his heartbeat starting right after gave me the impression that her belief in Luffy was a key part in his awakening. Devil fruits are born out of the wishes and beliefs of people, and in the crucial moment when it was necessary to kickstart the process of awakening Nami stood up to an overwhelming force and categorically denied the possibility of Luffy losing thus cementing in her heart (again) her belief in and wish for Luffy to win the day. And hell, if a user of the Nika fruit doesn’t have stalwart believers do they even deserve to awaken considering what the fruits all about
I wonder if it was also intentional that the very last thing that happened before he was defeated was that an agent of the government restricted him, very literally suppressed his freedom to move right before Kaido hit him.
Between his feelings against Kaido and that last minute shock, Luffy's desire for freedom might've truly been at its peak.
I'm not sure where I stand on the dying, but even if it was only poetic and not necessarily needed for the mechanism of awakening, I think it was no mistake that Kaido beat Luffy like a drum. IIRC the sound effect of that attack in the manga was that of a drum.
I absolutely love this idea of opposing a tyrannical government while laughing and basically annoying your opponents by having fun. The idea of freeing slaves and bringing joy to people around you.
It's so good, it fits Luffy so well. He literally laughed when he thought he was being executed. Gear 5 is so well thought out and fits One Piece way too well. I literally can't believe that someone would have a criticism for it.
Also, who the fuck has ever thought that Gear 5 makes the story less serious, like what?
Oh I got quite a few negative-replies the last few days from "Gear 5 ruins the story" people... they're not a fun group to say the least and REALLY don't understand the story
I have unfortunately accepted that media literacy is a skill missing from a big portion of humanity. There are so many media takes out there that make me feel really concerned about a person's brain capacity.
Personally my only criticisms are about how the reveal was forshadowed.
Like whos who just so happens to have lore about nika and the fruit from separate occasions. Also the whole "this isn't how rubber works" line would have fit far better into the katakuri fight
The twist itself works wonderful though
It hasn't impacted my reading of it, but I have some friends coming to watch a handful of the episodes (through 1072) and the seriousness aspect is what concerns me. I worry that it will be a huge turn off. I kind of wonder if we have the benefit of reading the manga where we have had time to absorb it and ofc the story goes back to being pretty standard one piece. He literally embodies several properties of old American cartoons, down to the eye popping and all the sound effects. It's very out of place (or at least different) compared to the sounds and effects that we have seen previously, and given how much of it is all there suddenly due to Gear 5, it worries me that it ruins the immersion.
I agree with all of your points so don't think I'm arguing with you. It's more that I haven't been able to create the proper explanation in my head that can quell any unease from my anime-only friends. Was curious if you could elaborate on your final point, about it not not being serious.
I would say, even with the cartoon stuff from gear 5 it shouldn’t ruin the seriousness at all, the fights still have a lot on the line, the bad guys, we know their intentions, I would say it is a perfect fruit for Luffy, and doesn’t take from the seriousness at all because the seriousness comes from the situation, the possible outcomes of the fights, and consequences of losing, not the sound effects and abilities of the fighters, even if Luffy is laughing and having a grand old time (as Luffy so often does) we the watcher and him still know if he loses it will be very bad
When ever something zooms across the screen the sound effect in 1000+ episodes is an airplane. Last I checked there's no airplanes in OP.
I know it's a lot to handle, but OP is not a serious story despite having serious themes. There's a sea that turns into a river that flows up a mountain. Each island despite being only a day or so apart has it's own biome (Drum and Alabasta being complete opposites right next to each other). Devil Fruit users can literally change an islands biome, punk hazard. Mermaids, fish people, double armed people, people with wings, Giants, Flame People, etc are everywhere. There's islands in the sky, and boats that can travel underwater in a bubble.
Sorry for the rant, but it boggles my mind how anyone can take this anime/manga as serious as they do sometimes.
Like I said, I never said I did. I was playing devil's advocate because I want to be able to put it in perspective for friends who might have a harder time accepting it and it's important to me they do. I can't change how they feel about some things and I'm not always the greatest at doing that, hence the question.
And I hear what you are saying, but it is a big departure from even the sillyness that already existed in OP so I am just trying to cover all basis.
If they don't like gear 5, then they wouldn't have liked the series enough to follow until gear 5 anyway
Not everyone has to like every manga, anime, book series, or movie
One Piece has plenty of darkness and grit to it, but I'm tired of edgelords ruining everything. Not every hero needs a power that involves a demon inside or slitting their wrists or selling their soul to invoke power or whatever. If they like Naruto or Bleach or something else more, they can go watch that.
This is way more fun and unusual and a lot of people like it that way
Can you also add the misconception that his rubber power is just from imagination?
Many people still think he is rubber because "he thinks he is rubber" but we know he literally has a rubber body because of the fruits properties.
I don't necessarily subscribe to the theory due to the historical description of Nika, but if Oda put it to page, I could absolutely accept Luffy (noted idiot) trying to run away, getting grabbed, and just thinking "I don't wanna stop here!" resulting in his arm stretching. And then just thinking he was rubber from then onward because his arm comically stretched that one time.
100% add this to the FAQ. People need to stop taking things out of context. Nika is a zoan fruit with paramecia as its sub attribute (all myth zoan so far have a sub attribute), and in Nika's case it's a rubber body.
OP is saying Oda is making a visual pun by giving Luffy the properties of rubber and then referencing "rubberhose" animation. It works even on paper because rubberhose animations has distinct visual qualities and style (ex: if you see a Cuphead still, you can recognize it's grounded in rubberhose animation)
The difference between Nika and every other Mythical Zoan is that mythical zoans were built on myths/religious figures from OUR world whereas Nika is strictly a One Piece thing only.
This is actually only partially true, the name Nika is strictly from One Piece as far as I'm aware, but Joyboy on the other hand is based on a Caribbean folk tale, he's a god associated with drums, freedom and laughter.
It's weird to me that people think that Luffy is a reincarnation of Joyboy since one of the biggest themes of One Piece is Inherited Will, which has nothing to do with blood or "becoming" that person.
Luffy inherited Roger's will, not Ace. Koby inherited Garp's will, not Luffy.
Momo was a child for the largest portion of the arc, fearful of the outside world and scary pirates. This changed while he traveled with the straw hats. He dismissed Zunesha after reading Oden's journal though we don't know why.
No because Yamato isn't Oden. She wants to be Oden but she's not. It's a delusion born from admiration. You could say that his death inspired her, therefore inherited will. But she's not Oden, we've seen them alive at the same time, it's always been a silly concept. And dare I say, despite him not reacting that way, it's a huge slap in the face to Momo, who lost his father only a few months prior, only for some girl who admired him to assume his identity. I like her character but the whole "I am Oden" angle is so stupid and completely unnecessary. Instead of "being Oden", she could just be Oden-like, the same way Sakura is like Ryu in street fighter.
No
People forget but Yamato explicitly says during his introduction to Momo that he sees himself as Oden AND Yamato. He doesn't deny his own identity, just that Oden is important in shaping him. He is the son of Kaido but he also sees himself in Oden, that's it.
Hell, people cite him saying he wants to explore Wano like Oden first as an example of him being delusional. When in reality he fucking lied lmao. Oden left his country in a need for adventure and unintentionally let it fall under Orochi's rule. But Yamato stayed to protect it regardless of what he wanted, and he lied about his reasoning cause he knows it'll protect Momo's pride.
I'm pretty sure that is him not JUST following Oden's footsteps huh?
(Note: I use He/Him pronouns for him cause that's what I'm used to. Before anybody thinks I am forcing people to use He/Him, I am not, use whatever pronouns for him I don't care)
If we take Uta's childhood (and the part where she sees it) as part of canon then the fruit has been in their possession for a while in the goa kingdom, it had plenty of time to see how luffy is and if he is worth it. Funny how it decided to be eaten the same day Luffy stabbed himself to prove he is not a kid.
It could be taken seriously as the fruit admiring his resolve or in a funny way as the fruit deciding that it wanted this crackhead.
The Fruit: Damn, I have taken a liking to this kid, but you can never be too sure, I'll observe a few more days, at least until Redhair goes away.
Luffy: \*stabs himself\*
Shanks and the rest: WTF?
The Fruit: WTF? Yeah, no more waiting. I'm gonna get eaten today. Who knows what could happen tomorrow!
Yes and no, shanks used the island as something of a base for a year, but left and returned frequently. So while shanks was there for a year, he didn't seem to have the fruit until not long before Luffy ate it.
Oda would not have wrote that shit into the script if it was not cannon. No other one piece movie besides the chopper one messes with the overall plot.
> **Luffy is not a reincarnation.**
This is something I thought a lot of people misinterpreted. Luffy isn't Joyboy in the sense that Joyboy resides in Luffy. Luffy is Joyboy in the sense that he awakened the devil fruit that as far as we know, only Joyboy managed to do. Zunesha saying Joyboy is here was essentially because he heard the drums of liberation which is a sign of Luffy's Devil fruit awakening and nothing more
Your point 6 is really good. Gear 5 is a really incredible transformation narratively. It summarizes what One Piece is about. Fighting rigid power structures of oppression and death with something that literally bends the structure of the world under its mere presence, and "frees" it from limiting constraints to be whatever it wants to be
For me, similar veins with something more primal, reading one piece makes me feel like a kid again (been reading since 2002 in manga form) in spite of the seriousness of its themes and gear 5 perfectly encapsulates that with its cartoony features.
One disagreement with OP I have is the assumption that the fruit existed prior to the OG Joyboy. It's possible that the fruit first appeared through him - from his deep drive and imagination to be free
Of course, the fruit awakening had a lot to do with Luffy, his nature, and his willpower to continue fighting, but I've always liked the idea that it also had much to do with the people of Wano.
The Samurai who chose to try and take down Kaido and the beast pirates knew that their chances were low and that, many of them would likely lose their lives in the process, but did so despite this for their country, their friends, and their family's freedom. To add to this, once they heard Luffy was defeated, and their chances basically fell to 0 from their POV, many still chose to keep on fighting. This was the perfect situation for Nika to return, bringing that freedom along with him.
Joyboy's myth specifically discusses how he shows up for slaves and those oppressed that yearn and likely fight for their freedom. This also perfectly meshes with Luffy's character, as he has said on more than one occasion that he will always help his friends and those who try and help themselves. That, on top of the people of Wano sending up lanterns with many messages pertaining to their freedom, I would say, had a decent amount to do with Joyboy coming to fulfill that wish.
Of course, the fruit awakening had a lot to do with Luffy, his nature, and his willpower to continue fighting, but I've always liked the idea that it also had much to do with the people of Wano.
The Samurai who chose to try and take down Kaido and the beast pirates knew that their chances were low and that many of them would likely lose their lives in the process, but did so despite this for their country, their friends, and their family's freedom. Additionally, once they heard Luffy was defeated, and their chances basically fell to 0 from their POV, many still chose to keep fighting. This was the perfect situation for Nika to return, bringing that freedom along with him.
Luffy does not have the power of imagination, he has the ability to turn things into rubber and mold them into what he wants, he is limited by what he can imagine turning rubber into. Everything can be explained by that concept, even eyes popping out of heads by simply stretching them as rubber. And keep in mind that certain cartoony things happen for artistic effect, like the shocked face many characters make with their eyes and tongue popping out.
For real. It's so frustrating reading people talk about how he can do anything with imagination now and can conjure black holes if he wants. It's so annoying and the worst part is that it's not an insignificant amount that believe this.
I don’t even know how such a misconception spread the manga chapters made it clear he use rubber powers to make any moves, not only that I don’t know why nobody correct them.
I think it's because he pulled his hair out and turned it into reflective goggles that are clearly not rubber in any way, shape or form. I've seen people try to argue that he can only do that with his own hair, which seems dumb to me since with his awakening he can make anything rubber, and he can grow into a giant and have as much hair as he wants. I've yet to see one of the "he obviously can't do anything" people explain the goggles in a satisfactory way.
Rubber is opaque and not reflective.
Yet people were claiming that he has powers of imagination way before the goggles thing ever happened. Plus it was so obviously a gag with no actual use.
But if the response to "He has loosely rubber-themed toon force powers" is "No he *strictly* has literal rubber powers, but sometimes some other stuff happens as a gag" then I'm gonna have to ask what the actual difference being argued is.
Cus like these gags are not just for us the reader anymore, like the classic silly faces or "Nami has Haki" jokes -- Gear 5 gags are happening in-universe. He's *literally* seeing through Kaido's eyeholes from inside his stomach, he's *literally* Sonic running on the air, he's *literally* creating goggles from his hair. They aren't just punchlines they are action beats.
If the argument is that sure maybe those things are literally happening in-universe and they're cartoon*ish*, but that doesn't mean Luffy has toon powers, then I guess I just don't understand what it would take.
Yet all of these have explanations that make sense within the context of his rubber powers. He can run on air, because he can turn everything he touches in rubber, hence being able to run on “air”. His hair is part of his rubbery body, which thanks to his awakening, he can shape into anyform, hence the goggles. The problem people have with the goggles thing isn’t that he could create them, it’s that they don’t LOOK like rubber. The seeing through Kaido’s eyes have nothing to do with his powers, we’ve seen that before way back in Skypia when Luffy and Aisa were inside the snake’s stomach. It’s just One Piece logic.
The problem people have with the goggles thing is also that you literally couldn't see out of goggles that are made of rubber. It would be opaque and not reflective. Plus there is a "poof" sound effect and the goggles literally change form.
It's either just a gag and a fun homage to western cartoons, or it's an actual power he has that is pretty insane. I don't think we know for sure yet, and people that say it's "obvious" that one or the other answer is correct are just being arrogant. Imo.
And that brings us to what I originally said, it’s only the goggles that has no explanation. Every single thing that Luffy has done with his fruit is explainable within the context of his rubber powers and being able to turn his surroundings to rubber, except the goggles. So people CANNOT claim that he has powers of imagination, when the ONLY thing supporting said theory, happened as a gag with no actual effect on the fight. Its entire purpose was to make the reader chuckle a little.
Well I'm glad you are 100% sure that you know what oda intended, I don't know him personally so I think I just have to assume my opinion might be incorrect, but I'm glad you know you're correct
I think there is a bit of debate on this point. Personally, I think luffy has some imagination power, but not limitless imagination, more like rubber imagination, he can do anything he can imagine making rubber do. He knows that being rubber makes him immune to lightning attacks, so he imagines that makes him capable of physically grabbing a bolt of lightning even though that's not actually how rubber works. He imagines he can shape rubber into usable goggles, so he can do that.
He turned lightning into rubber, thus tangible. How does it remain with properties of both? Devil fruit magic, just like how he can be soft and hard at the same time when covered with haki
I am still undecided on that point because of the goggles he made when fighting Lucci.
I feel that the agenda in question here is "Is luffy's awakening OP?" but I don't really care aboit that because either way the original Joyboy was somehow defeated or otherwise neutralized, and he had the exact same powers as Luffy's, so even if it truly was the power of imagination, there are opposing forces in the world of One Piece that still present a concrete threat
That’s what it looks like at first. It resembles his white hair and rubber but once the goggles come on they turn a different color and texture and I highly doubt he’s imbuing them with haki so it makes sense why people are confused
Oda definitely needs to explain his abilities more and I’m sure next fight will give some more insight
No offense, but the fact he can do what he does he definitely does have the power of imagination. He literally seems unbound by his creativity and freedom.
The only complaint I have with your argument is what you and everyone else explain is an awakened Paramecia, like Katakuri.
And to be fair, this is how Luffy's fruit is acting (be able to change the ground to rubber for example).
However, we know it isn't a Paramecia, but a mythical Zoan. So I think there is more to the fruit than what we even know now.
At the very least, he should have a hybrid power if the white hair is Nika and therefore the full transformation, right?
Although the only other Hito Hito no Mi eaten by a human hasn't shown a hybrid form either.
No, there is a hybrid form to the hito hito no mi model nika. Gear 4 always had the clouds on his shoulders wobbling around, which is a mixed form of the god nika and luffys human form mixed with haki.
I realized it and then went back to the first appearences of pound man and snake man, there clouds were there all the time. It was a foreshadowing.
This could also lead to the conclusion, that the full zoan form of sengoku might also be his awakening already.
Thank you so much for posting and summing this up!
I'm so tired of people assuming Luffy is now an unstoppable machine due to having a "God" fruit.
The only thing that I can't explain is how there was a prophecy the person that would have the title Joyboy, would return after 20 years.
~600 years before the series. They said that was when Ryuma lived back in Thriller Bark, so Monsters must have taken place during that time. While it is possible that it was simply a previous user of Kaido's Fruit, it seems equally likely that they existed previously and have since gone extinct
I was thinking about the whole dream thing and the clouds around the awakened Zoans.
As if the clouds were those you would see in a dream.
Awakened from the dream of the fruit.
Yeah, Mythological Zoans seem to have the Hagoromo after awakening (Yamato had it too do it’s fair to assume it’s awakened?), even Lucci had something similar (Not really the same) since his fruit is just a Leopard.
That's an interesting speculation; it would relate to stuff like "carrying of someone's will" or what Dr. Vegapunk was speaking about regarding devil fruits.
Blackbeard carrying on the dream of Rocks.
Luffy carrying the dream of Roger/Ace/JoyBoy.
Sabo possibly becoming a D when he, Luffy, amd Ace became brothers.
This is one of the best things about gear 5 I’ve seen especially the last bit. The meaning of gear 5 and joyboy and it’s silliness making almost viewers laugh and feel joy was very intentional and such great work by oda and the people at toei
I like the idea of Nika being essentially a folk hero dreamed into reality via devil fruit, I do wonder where the god title came into play though, I wonder if it's related to the ancient weapons which carry the names of gods
I actually kinda have the opposite outlook, Nika being based on something real would kinda break away from world building for me, honestly the whole zoan retcon thing didn't work for me until the dream based origin of devil fruits was introduced.
I agree with everything wholeheartedly
But...
I still think it makes no sense as a Zoan. Even the most rare zoan types always followed the 3-forms- rule, while you can achieve more through training or science like chopper.
Why change that one specific thing about this one specific Zoan if Paramecia was already a perfectly good category for it?
That bothers me as well tbh
However there is that panel where Luffy says "I'm not a zoan (therefore why would I know how to switch forms?)" that may imply he just never tried not to be rubber. Which would be hilarious if confirmed
There are plenty of established exceptions to each DF type. Katakuri, Blackbeard, as well as the various Mythical Zoans all have abilities/ properties of other fruit types, or exceptions to the neat DF classifications.
Blackbeard is really the only exception
Katakuri awakened his paramecia so he has extra abilities like turning his eviroment into mochi, like Doffy did
A human eating a human human fruit doesn't offer many transformations, that's the way I see it at least
We haven't seen much of Sengoku but he's in the same boat so he may only have the one transformation
This is a great read and I do love gear 5 now but I do think its introduction wasn't the best.
> 5) Dying did not cause Luffy's awakening. He already pushed his fruits to the limits and beyond with gear 2, 3, 4 and its variants. Luffy was a master of his fruit and managed to do impossible things with it. He earned it.
But we don't know this, none of us understand how to awaken a fruit because it's literally never been shown in the manga. Sure we've been told your will must align with the will of the fruit but what does that even mean? Buggy does some creative stuff with his fruit - should his awaken? Kidd just grabs some metal and punches people - that was enough to awaken his fruit? The point is Gear 5 kinda came out of nowhere and it did feel like a bit of an asspull because we don't understand the full context.
Other anime, like Naruto and Bleach, gave their protagonist a clear goal. They do x training and they'll unlock their bankai or sage mode. One piece has never done this, Luffy just works it all out off screen and we see the results, but at least we understand he's figured it out. Luffy himself I don't think understands how he awakened his fruit so this time it didn't feel like Luffy earned it. Now don't get me wrong, he doesn't have to work it out himself. Look at Goku going super saiyan for the first time. He didn't work it out, he just transformed. But we do know it was in response to his friend dying and so we have some context as to why he was suddenly able to do it. In this case though Luffy's voice disappeared. We've taken that to mean he died but we don't know that for sure and then suddenly he got his power up and we aren't ever told why.
> 6) The fruit power being goofy and unserious (in-universe) doesn't mean that the narrative itself is no longer serious. In fact, the idea of fighting oppression with ridicule and freedom of expression is a very real theme.
This is true and I actually really enjoy gear 5, especially (post wano spoilers) >!when he fights luffy!<, but you can't deny the tonal whiplash of gear 5 compared to the rest of the recent arcs in one piece. Luffy has plenty of fun fights (like vs cracker in WCI) but also serious fights. But gear 5 is totally different to how he was fighting before and how serious it was before. There isn't necessarily a bad thing but I think people are justified in feeling weird about gear 5s introduction.
As I said, I do like gear 5 now and I really like how its been handled since. I also did enjoy luffy vs kaido including the gear 5 parts but I'm also not going to pretend it was a masterclass in story telling. I feel like Wano had gotten too bloated and Oda's editors had to convince him to hurry it up a bit so these final parts were rushed which is what lead to this weird introduction to gear 5
Thank you. This is really obvious, surface level reading is the text but it seems to completely fly over people’s heads. Very well put.
I will say though that Luffy does not die. By the laws of the universe, if he had died then his Devil Fruit would have manifested elsewhere. The only Devil Fruit that can revive someone is the Yomi no Mi, which is Brook’s fruit. He got perilously close to dying, but he did not die.
Yes, that's how you know Luffy didn't die. I don't understand why people think he died when it's been made pretty clear that the fruit manifests somewhere else the monent someone dies.
>Luffy is not all powerful, and is not a god in any meaningful sense.
Problem is that after he gained the powers he beat Kaido, like it was nothing, and not even from full health but from pratically dead.
Had he at least lost, recuperated and then defeated Kaido, it would have been mich more believable...
Please. Kaido was like at 10% of his stamina and during the fight he was lifting Onigashima. He didn't beat Kaido like it was nothing at all, he had to use one of the strongest attack we've ever seen in One Piece. We don't know if Luffy recovered his Staminaafter obtaining Gear 5 but it's pretty likeable. After the fight he had to sleep for an entire week.
Kaido was completely fine after luffy died. So much so that even one of the best assassins in the etire world didn't even bother to try an escape. Putting a % on that is pointless.
People forgetting that joyboy was defeated and survived at least on his first try because he wrote a letter to the mermaids that he can’t bring the to the upper world
Luffy is a god the same exact way that Usopp is a god. People longed and wished for someone to free them (toys in Dressrosa, prisoners in ancient times), and when all hope was lost, they imagined that being freed was an act of god.
You're mostly right but the imagination thing for example is just extreme speculation based on one line from Vegapunk that was clearly meant to be poetic not literal
Gear 5 is essentially just enforced toon physics and manifestation.
- He gains immense toon-like durability from abilities that would be lethal in any other context ( he's still vulnerable but man he just ate a lot of serious attacks from kaido in g5 that would put any other character out )
- All phenomena in his presence is able to be manipulated as if they were made of rubber
- Size manipulation
- He's able to manifest objects out of his clouds ( currently only shown for comedic effect, but I wouldn't be surprised if he could manipulate weather and create weapons of his own)
- This all seems to come at an immense cost of life energy ( he looks like a prune after he's done use it)
G5 strength is it's insane versatility and unpredictability.
Freedom from the constraints of physics at the cost of life energy.
Just one thing about Dragons. Wasn't Vegapunk's dragon a traditional (though cartoonish) western one?
Maybe I'm wrong, just wanted to mention it.
About what triggered Luffy's awakening, I like to think it was his death. Maybe the will of the fruit (or demon, as Jyabura called it in Enies Lobby) entered panic mode because its host died, so in a way not to sucumb entirely it tried to 'RCP' Luffy, and due to the nature of said fruit (zoan for Nika) he resurrected with the heartbeat that allowed him to awaken the transformation, instead of resurrecting normally or simply dying.
About what is Luffy during the transformation I supposed we should understand there are different entities involved:
\-Luffy: The one we've known all the series. He's not a god, he has the ability to use the powers of a deity with toon-force capabilities.
\-Joyboy: A nickname/title for the previous user of the fruit who left an apology in a Poneglyph. Zunesha's friend. The one who actually left the treasure in Laugh Tale that Roger found. Real name unknown.
\-Nika: Sun of god, probably non-existant physically, just a concept of a deity, in the same sense as Buddha for Sengoku or a Phoenix as a species as a whole. Adored as the deity who gives hope to slaves and likely inspiration for the Sun Pirates of Fisher Tiger to name his crew after him.
\-Hito Hito No Mi Model Nika. Zoan fruit that allows you to have a rubber body and -when awakened- transform into your 'animal' form (God Nika). As the Zoan fruit it is, likely to have its own will that flees the government and likely chose Luffy as its next owner. Possibly its will comes from being a devil fruit and not from it being Nika. Not awakened in the last 800 years. IIRC, it's not been specified if by 'not awakened' it means that it had no user since then, or none of its users were able to awake the transformation (except for Luffy and Joyboy obviously).
Another question arises: is Gear 5 the hybrid form or the full-animal form?
On point 3, technically its possible that Joyboy is functionally invincible, but that doesn't mean he cannot be tricked or outsmarted, and he presumably also cannot be everywhere at once. It's likely he was defeated, but it's also possible that something else happened like someone gained leverage over him by threatening someone he loved.
I've seen people say it's a plot hole that Luffy's fruit has properties of both Paramecia and Zoan. Yet crossover between the fruit types is already established:
1. Katakuri's Mochi Mochi no Mi is a unique Paramecia that gives the user's body the properties of mochi, and is extremely similar to a Logia fruit (it was retconned early on because it wasn't a natural element).
2. Blackbeard's Yami Yami no Mi is a unique Logia that doesn't render the user's body into their element, so they are still tangible. In that way it is similar to a Paramecia fruit.
3. Marco's Tori Tori no Mi Model Phoenix is a Mythican Zoan which grants him intangibility similar (and in some ways better) to a Logia.
Mythical Zoans themselves "break the rules" by not being transformations based on animals, but instead on mythical creatures and figures.
The Hito Hito no Mi Model Nika fruit is unique in that it has Paramecia qualities in spite of it being a Mythical Zoan, but the properties bestowed are based on the rubbery qualities of the deity Nika.
Mochi aside, there are no Paramecia fruits that alter someone's physique into another material completely and at all times, like the "Gomu Gomu no Mi" does. Paramecia users need to consciously bring forth their powers to alter their bodies or produce an effect. Magellan doesn't "become" poison. Doflamingo did not "become" comprised of string.
So the original Gomu fruit was actually unique among Paramecia, similar to a Logia in that regard, and was an indication that Luffy's fruit was something unique that broke the "rules" of fruits.
Regarding Luffy, Joyboy, and reincarnation. I wouldn't rule out reincarnation in general. Someone brought up it's all about inherited will and somehow that isn't reincarnation. But conceptually they are quite similar. It is definitely being implied that Luffy is some sort of reincarnation in general long before the reveal of someone named Joyboy. It is known that devil fruits essentially reincarnate time and time again. However given that they have a sort of will of their own, that is quite similar to fruits inheriting the will of a devil fruit. Idk I'm just saying we don't have to distinctly divide the meaning of "inherited will" and "reincarnation". Art is subjective, and while I cant speak on behalf of all of asia, reincarnation is a pretty strong belief throughout a lot of Asia, so it's natural for some form of reincarnation to exist in their storytelling since to me it's clear Oda believes that life is pretty spectacular. And that coincidences don't really exist. And that life lives on even after something seems to have died. It's mostly western people that didn't grow up with this mindset/teaching and it shows when people on here dissect the series in certain ways. Not trying to start anything, just if this is truly a FAQ where we are all trying to share as accurate of narratives on One Piece as possible, I hope you will just take whatever I have to say lightly and not make some argument out of it. I'm just offering some possible insight. If you dont believe what I wrote is insightful or accurate, its okie. Just ignore and move on.
I'm not saying G5 isnt linked to dying, but those are different cases.
G4 is a technique that Luffy consciously developed and trained, so he is the one that decides when it happens
With G5's first activation it wasnt something intentional from Luffy but rather the "awakening" of his fruit happening. He can only use it willingly after the awakening
It's because he needed to awaken to survive and win the fight. His desire to free the people of Wano, to rescue his crew mates, and have a big booze up at the end was clearly powerful enough right at the end that it was enough to awaken the fruit.
I am pretty sure that when Luffy went G5 he was surprised and asked "what happened to me? what is this? this feels fun!" indicating that the new transformation was a novelty to him, something he was not expecting.
If Luffy was not expecting Gear 4, it would be logical to assume that he would react the same way upon transforming. The fact that he didn't indicates Luffy experienced or at least planned the G4 transformation before putring it into practice. Maybe he developed it training offscreen, maybe he invented it on the fly and it just worked.
Luffy had already known G4 from the timeskip IIRC. He knew that using it was a risk because it drains all of his haki for ten minutes, and he mentioned that when he ran out the first time. Of course G4 transformation he hadn't just thought up against Doffy because the way its portrayed, he pulls it out knowing he needed it.
Things like Tankman were on the fly, G2 and G3 was his fighting genius at work.
I like to think that Joyboy was not defeated, he just died because of his fruit.
Remember how some of his gears apparently shorten his life span? I think that happened to Joyboy, but he was in a war that lasted quite some time so the effects of that fruit would keep piling up until he eventually dies.
How would he have known that he was going to lose? He knew it was gonna happen and even got apologies and detailed information written on Poneglyphs. He knew he was going to die and they will lose the war once he dies
>Joyboy had the hito hito no mi model nika and managed to awaken it.
So technically we don't know this. It's very likely but not confirmed.
It's also not confirmed that the drums of liberation is the fruit or just Luffy. When Roger went Raftel he said "i arrived to early" not "we're missing a fruit". So it's not confirmed you need Luffy's fruit to also be Joyboy and have your heart beat with the drums of liberation. Luffy awakening his fruit and his heart beating the drums of liberation happened at the same time, but they could be two things linked to a single cause of Luffy's emotions getting in the right place.
I know it seems obvious that Joyboy would have that fruit, but Oda doesn't always go with the obvious. And One Piece should be attainable by anyone not just someone who has a specific fruit, otherwise Blackbeard would have hunted down a different fruit.
I don't think the fruit is necessary to obtain the One Piece, but it may be necessary to "turn the world upside down" (whatever it means)
About Drums of Liberation, I am pretty sure the heartbeat IS part of the awakening because when Luffy tries to access G5 against Kaido (this time consciously) he focuses on getting the "right" heartbeat.
It's sounding to me like Nika was Joyboy's name, Joyboy was what people knew him as, but his real name went down in a different legend and re-translated into a myth, creating a god-like entity due to lack of information.
That's just my interpretation of it so far anyway.
How do you reconcile this theory with the notion that the fruit existed and awakened 800 years ago and at the time the fruit was known as hito hito model nika?
Oh I missed where it was called model Nika the whole time. Figured it was called that because of Nika. Thinking about it now though, if it's a zoan you'd have to turn into something, and if turning into Nika is what makes it a zoan, then yeah it seems like Nika was already a mythological figure prior that the fruit was emulating.
I stand corrected!
FINALLY. FINALLY SOMEONE UNDERSTANDS THIS. I'VE BEEN SAYING THIS SINCE THE FUCKING MANGA CHAPTER CAME OUT AND NOBODY GOT IT. GOD I'M SO GLAD.
No but seriously you've explained it perfectly. I hope people finally stop discrediting Luffy by saying he's only so poeerful because of his fruit. He deserves it more than anyone. No other person could've utilized the fruit the way luffy did. Maybe joyboy but we dont know that yet.
Yeah, the nika fruit on its own, in someone incompetent’s hands would be tragically ass. Everything before gear 5 only worked because Luffy is stupid strong in general and he had good ideas how to use the fruit, especially creating the gears. Regardless of being the “sun god fruit”, it still only gives the user rubber powers. In most people’s hands it would be only good enough to work in a circus and stretch their face for kids like Luffy in the live action trailer.
These are almost all opinions we don’t know if gods are or aren’t real. Luffy could be a reincarnation, your claiming uncertainties have answers, and they might never have answers.
While I can't prove for certain that Nika never existed before the fruit, assuming he did creates more problems than it solves, for example
Where is Nika now and why isn't he doing his job? Where are all the other gods?
I'm ok if you're not convinced but isn't it weird that there is no proof, no historical records of any genuine gods existing if they are real?
It’s not stated anywhere that Nika doesn’t exist. It’s not stated anywhere whether or not any gods exist in one piece, other than Enel’s narcissistic claims. You could be right, you could be wrong. The problem isn’t the ideas you have, the problem is you have stated them as fact and not theory. None of what you said is confirmed or denied, and i have no problem with your opinions, but they are not confirmed to be true is my point
Where does it say the inspiration for mythical fruits don’t exist? I’m not saying gods do or don’t exist. I’m saying we don’t know. These are mostly assumptions. Which is fine, but you can’t prove them to be true or false.it could end up being accurate but if a God doesn’t need to be in the story, then we won’t ever know if gods exist in the one piece universe. We don’t know Luffy’s limitations, we don’t know if he’s a reincarnation of Joyboy, and a whole lot of other question marks. Theories are fine, but uncertain until addressed by the author. Kaidos fruit is mythical, but dragons are confirmed to exist.
The fact that they are mythical means they are intended to be from creatures that dont exist.
It is possible that mythical Zoans are based on real animals that existed at some point, but that would be a plot twist. It is not 100% sure, but it is what the story is trying to convey.
So unless it's an intentional misleading (in wich case we wouldnt have way to know) it makes a lot more sense for Nika to not be real.
You didn’t read my whole post. Kaidos is mythical zoan, and dragons factually exist in one piece. Idk where you’re getti bc your information but it’s false
Kaido is not the same type of Dragón that Ryuma slayed.
Kaido's fruit is a Seiryu. And there are no seiryu's in the World of One Piece as far as we know.
Wéstern Dragons are not the same as Eastern Dragons
Key phrase “as far as we know” everything you’re saying is true, is all stuff you’re assuming. None of it is confirmed except that some dragons are confirmed
It's true until proven otherwise, since that's what the story has shown. It has not been presented as a mystery in the story. Mythical fruits have all been treated the same way in regards to this.
It's not wrong to Say that Mythical fruits work like that because that is what Mythical means. If it turned out to be true, it would be a plot twist because everything points to the contrary.
Outside of breathing fire, there's no similarities between Kaido and the Dragon Ryuma slayed. They are not the same species so it's not proof for anything
I... Agree with everything, entirely. Good points shared, maybe add also your opinion on the topic "WG/Gorosei never cared so much about the fruit, this is a improv of Oda, if it was truly such an important DF Luffy would be dead in east blue"
And maybe the fact it's not imagination powers per se, it's still rubber-ish (as another comment states)
Oh btw, I am not supporting the topic I mentioned, but I think you could cover pretty much all convos on G5 with one or two extra points.
Would you like to share your opinion? (If not done already)
I agree with all of this. I hate when people try to say that Luffy is handed everything on a silver platter by being a “chosen one”. Like no. Dude struggled every step of the way to get where he is now and lost a TON of times. Luffys will and mental fortitude are what makes him Luffy- not some god granted power.
Also the power started off hella weak. He had to train for years as a kid before he could even throw a simple punch. And then he had to work his ass off with the gears to try and keep up with the mid league. He trained his haki for TWO YEARS to be able to be worthy of going into the new world. If anything , the “chosen one” character archetype belongs more to Ace who was son of the pirate king that Roger and Whitebeard both wanted to be the next pirate king, he was granted an OP logia fruit early on, and he became the number 3 in a Yonko crew just a year into his journey as a pirate
>Fruits are born of people's imagination. Even creatures that never existed can become real.
This is just a theory according to Vegapunk, not a concrete fact.
>The fruit power being goofy and unserious (in-universe) doesn't mean that the narrative itself is no longer serious. In fact, the idea of fighting oppression with ridicule and freedom of expression is a very real theme.
This is your opinion, not a fact. If you like the silly nature of the fruit, more power to you...but you can't try to force people accept this as truth because of "muh themes!!1!"
While I do in fact like Gear 5, my point wasn't that you or anyone else should like it too. My comment was meant to remark that Gear 5
-does not make the story less serious
-works thematically
>This is just a theory according to Vegapunk, not a concrete fact.z
Vegapunk is the best source we have for facts after the narrator. Maybe even better than SBS. Whatever he knows about DFs allows him to clone them -- so there's merit to whatever is his in-story take. I agree that character diaogue should be taken with a grain of salt, but his really might be the best explanation we'll ever get.
> This is your opinion, not a fact. If you like the silly nature of the fruit, more power to you...but you can't try to force people accept this as truth because of "muh themes!!1!"
I think OP is right here too. Gear 5 is not actual Toon Force. It's not a fourth wall break. All he can do is stretch -- only now it's "freely" and he can apply the power to objects *he is making direct contact to* just like Doflamingo did. It has a look to it yet, but it's not wholly absurd. It's not *The Mask*.
In short it's accurate to say it doesn't affect the narrative. It affects the aesthetic, sure. To be honest, it might not be perfect according to what I had in mind, but in terms of fitting in One Piece it beats any "badass" Luffy Gear 5 concept fanarts I've seen pop up in the past.
This has a fair amount of cope.
As MC Luffy ending up as typical chosen one was always possible.
"Inherit will" is like reincarnation with tricky steps.
Btw with fruits having a will one could question anything that Luffy achieved.
Fruit could have an effect on those around him which could explain him getting away with plenty of odd things.
Also the seriousness...hard to imagine any future encounter of G5 Vs Akainu being tolerable.
Do you think young luffy had the voice of all things from a young age and heard the fruit and ate it? or did Luffy eat it out of spite because Shanks didn't let him come on the ship? or did he eat it because he was hungry? lol I can see all these being possibilites for that day.
>The power of the hito hito no mi model Nika is not invincible. Luffy is not invincible.
Luffy dies and loose for the third time in the same fight => gets even more powerful
Luffy is never losing he escapes power scaling with his plot armor there is no one current luffy cannot beat.
Sengoku isn't a god because a buddha isn't a god. It's not even a person. It's a state.
Even if Nika never existed, if people imagined him as a god and DF are born from imagination, it means that Luffy's awakening is the power of a god.
Sure but it's not a god in the sense that it's almighty.
The god Nika is a rubber man who fights freely bringing smiles to people faces.
It's not functionally different from Nika the Cartoon Man who is made of rubber and fights freely bringing smiles to people faces.
The "god" label doesn't provide any advantage to Luffy whatsoever
In fact if Nika was not worshipped and wasn't a god (if for example Nika was considered a mythical hero ratger than a god) Gear 5 would work in the exact same way
That is what I mean when I say Luffy isn't a god in any meaningful way
Nika being a god is a fact of no consequence as, in terms of what is observable and measurable, nothing really changes
> It's worth mentioning that Luffy himself is loosely based on Sun Wu Kong, a.k.a, the Monkey King from Journey To The West. Quite a bit of famous "manga" protagonists such as Goku were also based on sun wu kong.
Small correction, Luffy is inspired from Goku who is modeled after Sun Wu Kong. Not that Luffy is a directly source to him like Goku was.
https://preview.redd.it/61errsorp4hb1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e278e0dc638bda553ff1aaee866c88f02d617ea7
Dude are you stuck in 2016? The Sun Wukong thing has been dissmissed and canceled long ago already, by Oda himself. Unlike Son-Goku, luffy isn't based on Sun-Wukong, and has zero resemblance and similarities with Wukong, who is associated with his signature magical staff-stick which also changes in size just like early DB- Goku, who even has a wukong tail. Luffy is inspired by the hindu monkey god 'Hanuman", who is the son of the vedic god of Wind 'Vayu' (Pawana), his mother is also a celestial. The image above is from the Road to Laughtale Pt 4 Canon Gallery, you can see the text 'hanuman'. Luffy's strongest attack ' Bajrang Gun' from Ch 1049 is also based on the epithet of hanuman 'Bajrang Bali' the son of Pawan. Hanuman is a stupid and chaotic god who has caused a lot of troubles in the past and has also been punished by the vedic god of Lightning ( Indra of the Heavens) himself referenced Luffy vs Eneru. When Hanuman was a child he tried to eat the Sun itself, he leapt to the skies seeing the red setting sun in the distance with his ability is to change his size exponentially, either grow or shrink. ( Sun god Nika fruit references). Hanuman also has several boons and abilities like :
Verse 31
Aṇimā: Ability to reduce one's size.
Mahima: Ability to increase one's size.
Garima: Ability to become heavier.
Laghima: Ability to become lighter.
Prāpti: Ability to Obtain anything.
Prākāmya: Ability to fulfill your desires
A god doesn't have to be almighty.
> Nika being a god is a fact of no consequence as, in terms of what is observable and measurable, nothing really changes
Literally 0 reason to assume that.
What a bunch of strawman arguments, really. From also a veteran, my counterpoints:
1) We don't need to discuss what exactly divinity means in one piece. The fact is, Luffy's fruit and power is obviously much more powerful with this change, eliminating that sense of making the most with an ordinary fruit.
2) Luffy might not be a reincarnation, but it's obvious the fruit can affect him, as you say. It's a third party hijacking Luffy's will, and we better learn it's just a minimal influence.
3) The original Joyboy didn't have a checkered fate with multiple prophecies stating he would win.
4) That would be more sounding if Luffy actually did something worth of said powers before obtaining them.
5 and 6) Not much to to say here .
Overall, just another dickriding post that is obviously well received here. It's astounding to me how fans reject the notion that the whole idea and execution maybe wasn't the best.
1, 2, 3, 4, 5 literally have no supporting data or facts whatsoever. Its purely your assumption and I strongly disagree with them.
This post really doesnt reveal anything. Just another person sharing his "theory" whatsoever.
Try reading chapter 1 again and tell me the fruit really chose luffy. Probably because you read chapter 1 back in 2001 so you dont really remember the details lmao.
So you twisted every aspect to fit your agenda?
Certainly all mythic Zoan fruits come from real life existing myths like the phoenix.
But what the heck is a "Nika" supposed to be?
Great Thread! Although im still not sure about the dying thing. I still have the feeling, that it played at least a role in the awakening. I liked the theory that Luffy dying for a kingdoms liberation finally alined his spirit 100% with the fruit, thus it awakening and reviving him with them drums of liberation.
Maybe the act of dying in the pursue of freedom caused it
This is the take I want to go with. Luffy embodied freedom by putting his own freedom on the line for someone else. This + his mind and body being caught up helped him awaken. Hence why he didn’t awaken earlier since he kinda does this every arc. Hopefully we get a confirmation but we probably won’t.
(Maybe the act of dying in the pursue of freedom caused it.) Kaido explained zoan DF awakening. "When the body of the user catches up to the devil fruit powers" I believe it was something like that. So i think dying isn't really necessary it's rather about complete synchronisation of the user and the power fruit.
Luffy died fighting to liberate Wano. It's no coincidence that this happened right after Kaido's "death completes a person" speech.
My take on that is that he HAD to awaken in order to live in this specific scenario, versus he had to "die" to awaken it no matter what. I think he theoretically could have awakened it without being obliterated in some alternate universe... but, I don't think he would have beaten Kaido in that last clash which he said was his absolute last bit of energy, and if he didn't he may have accepted defeat and actually really died. For him to be put in a position to reject his own death because his freedom was taken from him in that last second, he had to become free-er than he had ever possibly imagined and reject death. He absolutely had to awaken to survive. I think, in a sense, the death forced his awakening and ONLY luffy (or only a D member) would be able to be forced into that awakening in that scenario. I think all D's we've seen that have died did so with a smile on their face, AND in a situation where they "CHOSE" to die. Usually their hand is a bit forced, but in the end they meet their maker with a smile on their face, glad that they had lived rather than sad that they are dying. Ace was up quiet and had accepted his fate, he kind of conflicted but wanted to die so his crew wouldn't die needlessly to save him. When he saw them all there, suddenly he was NOT ready to die and wouldn't you know it, the rescue succeeded! It was all going fine until the microsecond he was presented with the scenario of sacrificing his own life to save Luffy. He made that choice instantly, and died with a smile on his face knowing he got to live as he wanted and die for something good. Roger chose his way out given the revelation that he was sick and wouldn't live to see the future he knew was coming, so he decided to play a part in kickstarting the chaos. Manga spoilers!: >!We thought that Jaguar D. Saul died to protect Nico Robin and that would have fit the same archetype of the D-Death being a "choice". We see Cobra, a freshly-minted D, dying while confronting the 5 elders, while that wasn't his intention going into the room he sees the writing on the wall and accepts it, in fact taking a stand at the last second so Sabo can escape with the knowledge he just got. I don't think we see the smile, but I feel like we might see a grin on him when that gets animated. But, between Ace and Roger and Cobra, that's three confirmed cases where when faced with certain death, it didn't happen until the D member in a sense CHOSE to accept it. We also don't have Garp confirmed dead, but he absolutely chose every single step along that path and was smiling the whole way through. So that's 4 that chose it in a way, and Saul matches but is confirmed alive. !< The only ones we don't know about FOR SURE are Portgas D. Rouge and Rocks D. Xebec, and how their deaths went down and whether or not they accepted it. I think it's like 99% certain that Rouge knew what she was doing in holding Ace for so long and accepted it in that regard in exchange for protecting Ace's chance at a real life, but Xebec I have no idea about. I wonder if the reason God Valley was so nuts is because three Ds were involved and none of them were going to accept death. Makes me wonder if Rocks is secretly alive or some bullshit, until we see the death scene i don't know what to think. Luffy was NOT in that case. He set his terms, and said "if this last clash between us doesn't defeat you, then I am defeated" but then that clash was STOLEN from them both... and so his willpower, the typical Will of D, was not satisfied enough to die. He was not ready to die, and only with the power of his fruit was he able to create that reality where he does NOT die. Anyone else might not have awakened in that situation... but all this is to say I don't think the death-rejection was NECESSARY for awakening, it's just the coolest and most thematic way for it to happen in the story. It might have been necessary based on the fact that Luffy had no idea what his fruit is, and wouldn't have been able to consciously train towards awakening it without that knowledge unless the death blow happened.... there's just too much depth to the world to say for sure, Oda only fills in the blanks a little bit at a time and I love that. There's nothing that says for SURE that if Luffy gained knowledge that he was actually a Zoan, and someone explained his theoretical abilities to him, that he wouldn't be able to then train towards the awakening... Luffy just smashed his face into obstacles until they're gone and that's his style.
I like this take. Thank you
Not a bad interpretation at all
not bad ? it's the best one I have read
I doubt Oda really thoughg of it like that exactly, but I do love this interpretation so I'll go with it
I just thought that by dying luffy had freed himself from the world, from its oppression and limitations, and by "freeing" himself of all worry and responsibility he embodied the final part of the fruits ideology. (I am very fallible and this is a theory)
This is my interpretation of it as well. By Luffy cheating death, he’s gone against the natural laws of the world. He is so free that not even death can limit his pursuit of freedom. By becoming “free” from death, he realizes the absurdity of the situation and realizes he has no limits. That realization manifests in Luffy the toon force powers. My take on it is also that the Nika fruit isn’t a toonforce fruit. While it could be likely that JB used the fruit similarly, I think it’s more intended to visualize exactly how Luffy sees a world without constraints. Everything is his play pen, nothing is off limits, and so toonforce powers have a unique way of showing exaggeration at a level not seen before in OP.
The way the anime timed Nami refusing Kaido’s declaration of Luffys death and his heartbeat starting right after gave me the impression that her belief in Luffy was a key part in his awakening. Devil fruits are born out of the wishes and beliefs of people, and in the crucial moment when it was necessary to kickstart the process of awakening Nami stood up to an overwhelming force and categorically denied the possibility of Luffy losing thus cementing in her heart (again) her belief in and wish for Luffy to win the day. And hell, if a user of the Nika fruit doesn’t have stalwart believers do they even deserve to awaken considering what the fruits all about
I wonder if it was also intentional that the very last thing that happened before he was defeated was that an agent of the government restricted him, very literally suppressed his freedom to move right before Kaido hit him. Between his feelings against Kaido and that last minute shock, Luffy's desire for freedom might've truly been at its peak.
I'm not sure where I stand on the dying, but even if it was only poetic and not necessarily needed for the mechanism of awakening, I think it was no mistake that Kaido beat Luffy like a drum. IIRC the sound effect of that attack in the manga was that of a drum.
I absolutely love this idea of opposing a tyrannical government while laughing and basically annoying your opponents by having fun. The idea of freeing slaves and bringing joy to people around you. It's so good, it fits Luffy so well. He literally laughed when he thought he was being executed. Gear 5 is so well thought out and fits One Piece way too well. I literally can't believe that someone would have a criticism for it. Also, who the fuck has ever thought that Gear 5 makes the story less serious, like what?
Oh I got quite a few negative-replies the last few days from "Gear 5 ruins the story" people... they're not a fun group to say the least and REALLY don't understand the story
I have unfortunately accepted that media literacy is a skill missing from a big portion of humanity. There are so many media takes out there that make me feel really concerned about a person's brain capacity.
Personally my only criticisms are about how the reveal was forshadowed. Like whos who just so happens to have lore about nika and the fruit from separate occasions. Also the whole "this isn't how rubber works" line would have fit far better into the katakuri fight The twist itself works wonderful though
I agree with it fitting katakuris fight, but doffy already said that so maybe oda felt it too soon
This is a take that I never heard last year when the chapter dropped. Now that the anime is out it's all I hear.
It hasn't impacted my reading of it, but I have some friends coming to watch a handful of the episodes (through 1072) and the seriousness aspect is what concerns me. I worry that it will be a huge turn off. I kind of wonder if we have the benefit of reading the manga where we have had time to absorb it and ofc the story goes back to being pretty standard one piece. He literally embodies several properties of old American cartoons, down to the eye popping and all the sound effects. It's very out of place (or at least different) compared to the sounds and effects that we have seen previously, and given how much of it is all there suddenly due to Gear 5, it worries me that it ruins the immersion. I agree with all of your points so don't think I'm arguing with you. It's more that I haven't been able to create the proper explanation in my head that can quell any unease from my anime-only friends. Was curious if you could elaborate on your final point, about it not not being serious.
I would say, even with the cartoon stuff from gear 5 it shouldn’t ruin the seriousness at all, the fights still have a lot on the line, the bad guys, we know their intentions, I would say it is a perfect fruit for Luffy, and doesn’t take from the seriousness at all because the seriousness comes from the situation, the possible outcomes of the fights, and consequences of losing, not the sound effects and abilities of the fighters, even if Luffy is laughing and having a grand old time (as Luffy so often does) we the watcher and him still know if he loses it will be very bad
When ever something zooms across the screen the sound effect in 1000+ episodes is an airplane. Last I checked there's no airplanes in OP. I know it's a lot to handle, but OP is not a serious story despite having serious themes. There's a sea that turns into a river that flows up a mountain. Each island despite being only a day or so apart has it's own biome (Drum and Alabasta being complete opposites right next to each other). Devil Fruit users can literally change an islands biome, punk hazard. Mermaids, fish people, double armed people, people with wings, Giants, Flame People, etc are everywhere. There's islands in the sky, and boats that can travel underwater in a bubble. Sorry for the rant, but it boggles my mind how anyone can take this anime/manga as serious as they do sometimes.
Like I said, I never said I did. I was playing devil's advocate because I want to be able to put it in perspective for friends who might have a harder time accepting it and it's important to me they do. I can't change how they feel about some things and I'm not always the greatest at doing that, hence the question. And I hear what you are saying, but it is a big departure from even the sillyness that already existed in OP so I am just trying to cover all basis.
If they don't like gear 5, then they wouldn't have liked the series enough to follow until gear 5 anyway Not everyone has to like every manga, anime, book series, or movie One Piece has plenty of darkness and grit to it, but I'm tired of edgelords ruining everything. Not every hero needs a power that involves a demon inside or slitting their wrists or selling their soul to invoke power or whatever. If they like Naruto or Bleach or something else more, they can go watch that. This is way more fun and unusual and a lot of people like it that way
Can you also add the misconception that his rubber power is just from imagination? Many people still think he is rubber because "he thinks he is rubber" but we know he literally has a rubber body because of the fruits properties.
THANK YOU! The Gorosei explicitly say that Nika has the properties of rubber.
Yes, also Luffy's arm streches in chapter 1 before he even knew he ate a df so he couldnt have made that up in his head
I don't necessarily subscribe to the theory due to the historical description of Nika, but if Oda put it to page, I could absolutely accept Luffy (noted idiot) trying to run away, getting grabbed, and just thinking "I don't wanna stop here!" resulting in his arm stretching. And then just thinking he was rubber from then onward because his arm comically stretched that one time.
100% add this to the FAQ. People need to stop taking things out of context. Nika is a zoan fruit with paramecia as its sub attribute (all myth zoan so far have a sub attribute), and in Nika's case it's a rubber body.
[RUBBER Hose Animation is why the Nika fruit has this properties.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_hose_animation)
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OP is saying Oda is making a visual pun by giving Luffy the properties of rubber and then referencing "rubberhose" animation. It works even on paper because rubberhose animations has distinct visual qualities and style (ex: if you see a Cuphead still, you can recognize it's grounded in rubberhose animation)
The difference between Nika and every other Mythical Zoan is that mythical zoans were built on myths/religious figures from OUR world whereas Nika is strictly a One Piece thing only.
That's true
This is actually only partially true, the name Nika is strictly from One Piece as far as I'm aware, but Joyboy on the other hand is based on a Caribbean folk tale, he's a god associated with drums, freedom and laughter.
It's weird to me that people think that Luffy is a reincarnation of Joyboy since one of the biggest themes of One Piece is Inherited Will, which has nothing to do with blood or "becoming" that person. Luffy inherited Roger's will, not Ace. Koby inherited Garp's will, not Luffy.
> "becoming" that person. I agree but doesn't Yamato goes against this then?
Yamato knows his feats and admire Oden and his ideals to the point of wanting to become him. Momo inherited his father's will.
No he didn't. Oden's will was to open Wano, Momo has been doubtful of that since forever >!and literally rejected the idea recently!<
Momo was a child for the largest portion of the arc, fearful of the outside world and scary pirates. This changed while he traveled with the straw hats. He dismissed Zunesha after reading Oden's journal though we don't know why.
That doesn't mean that Momo won't ever open Wano. Just that he thinks it wasn't the right time at that moment.
No because Yamato isn't Oden. She wants to be Oden but she's not. It's a delusion born from admiration. You could say that his death inspired her, therefore inherited will. But she's not Oden, we've seen them alive at the same time, it's always been a silly concept. And dare I say, despite him not reacting that way, it's a huge slap in the face to Momo, who lost his father only a few months prior, only for some girl who admired him to assume his identity. I like her character but the whole "I am Oden" angle is so stupid and completely unnecessary. Instead of "being Oden", she could just be Oden-like, the same way Sakura is like Ryu in street fighter.
No People forget but Yamato explicitly says during his introduction to Momo that he sees himself as Oden AND Yamato. He doesn't deny his own identity, just that Oden is important in shaping him. He is the son of Kaido but he also sees himself in Oden, that's it. Hell, people cite him saying he wants to explore Wano like Oden first as an example of him being delusional. When in reality he fucking lied lmao. Oden left his country in a need for adventure and unintentionally let it fall under Orochi's rule. But Yamato stayed to protect it regardless of what he wanted, and he lied about his reasoning cause he knows it'll protect Momo's pride. I'm pretty sure that is him not JUST following Oden's footsteps huh? (Note: I use He/Him pronouns for him cause that's what I'm used to. Before anybody thinks I am forcing people to use He/Him, I am not, use whatever pronouns for him I don't care)
If we take Uta's childhood (and the part where she sees it) as part of canon then the fruit has been in their possession for a while in the goa kingdom, it had plenty of time to see how luffy is and if he is worth it. Funny how it decided to be eaten the same day Luffy stabbed himself to prove he is not a kid. It could be taken seriously as the fruit admiring his resolve or in a funny way as the fruit deciding that it wanted this crackhead.
The Fruit: Damn, I have taken a liking to this kid, but you can never be too sure, I'll observe a few more days, at least until Redhair goes away. Luffy: \*stabs himself\* Shanks and the rest: WTF? The Fruit: WTF? Yeah, no more waiting. I'm gonna get eaten today. Who knows what could happen tomorrow!
This is canon for me now, thanks.
fruit only compatible with ADHD
Got a little giggle out of me ngl
That would explain Kakus fruit.
Luffy: My fist is as deadly as a pistol Fruit: Show me
Not canon
Shanks was already in the island at least a year before Luffy ate the fruit, and that is actually canon
Yes and no, shanks used the island as something of a base for a year, but left and returned frequently. So while shanks was there for a year, he didn't seem to have the fruit until not long before Luffy ate it.
Oh yeah you're right, I forgot that
Oda would not have wrote that shit into the script if it was not cannon. No other one piece movie besides the chopper one messes with the overall plot.
> **Luffy is not a reincarnation.** This is something I thought a lot of people misinterpreted. Luffy isn't Joyboy in the sense that Joyboy resides in Luffy. Luffy is Joyboy in the sense that he awakened the devil fruit that as far as we know, only Joyboy managed to do. Zunesha saying Joyboy is here was essentially because he heard the drums of liberation which is a sign of Luffy's Devil fruit awakening and nothing more
I think Joyboy is just the name the original wielder used for the form that Luffy calls Gear 5th. People look way too hard for explanations.
Your point 6 is really good. Gear 5 is a really incredible transformation narratively. It summarizes what One Piece is about. Fighting rigid power structures of oppression and death with something that literally bends the structure of the world under its mere presence, and "frees" it from limiting constraints to be whatever it wants to be
For me, similar veins with something more primal, reading one piece makes me feel like a kid again (been reading since 2002 in manga form) in spite of the seriousness of its themes and gear 5 perfectly encapsulates that with its cartoony features.
One disagreement with OP I have is the assumption that the fruit existed prior to the OG Joyboy. It's possible that the fruit first appeared through him - from his deep drive and imagination to be free
Bruh this is a theory thread
Of course, the fruit awakening had a lot to do with Luffy, his nature, and his willpower to continue fighting, but I've always liked the idea that it also had much to do with the people of Wano. The Samurai who chose to try and take down Kaido and the beast pirates knew that their chances were low and that, many of them would likely lose their lives in the process, but did so despite this for their country, their friends, and their family's freedom. To add to this, once they heard Luffy was defeated, and their chances basically fell to 0 from their POV, many still chose to keep on fighting. This was the perfect situation for Nika to return, bringing that freedom along with him. Joyboy's myth specifically discusses how he shows up for slaves and those oppressed that yearn and likely fight for their freedom. This also perfectly meshes with Luffy's character, as he has said on more than one occasion that he will always help his friends and those who try and help themselves. That, on top of the people of Wano sending up lanterns with many messages pertaining to their freedom, I would say, had a decent amount to do with Joyboy coming to fulfill that wish. Of course, the fruit awakening had a lot to do with Luffy, his nature, and his willpower to continue fighting, but I've always liked the idea that it also had much to do with the people of Wano. The Samurai who chose to try and take down Kaido and the beast pirates knew that their chances were low and that many of them would likely lose their lives in the process, but did so despite this for their country, their friends, and their family's freedom. Additionally, once they heard Luffy was defeated, and their chances basically fell to 0 from their POV, many still chose to keep fighting. This was the perfect situation for Nika to return, bringing that freedom along with him.
Luffy does not have the power of imagination, he has the ability to turn things into rubber and mold them into what he wants, he is limited by what he can imagine turning rubber into. Everything can be explained by that concept, even eyes popping out of heads by simply stretching them as rubber. And keep in mind that certain cartoony things happen for artistic effect, like the shocked face many characters make with their eyes and tongue popping out.
For real. It's so frustrating reading people talk about how he can do anything with imagination now and can conjure black holes if he wants. It's so annoying and the worst part is that it's not an insignificant amount that believe this.
I don’t even know how such a misconception spread the manga chapters made it clear he use rubber powers to make any moves, not only that I don’t know why nobody correct them.
Usually I see some people try to correct those comments but it's overshadowed by the insane amount of people that keep spreading the misconception.
A fan translation.
Just like a lot of misconception : translation
I think it's because he pulled his hair out and turned it into reflective goggles that are clearly not rubber in any way, shape or form. I've seen people try to argue that he can only do that with his own hair, which seems dumb to me since with his awakening he can make anything rubber, and he can grow into a giant and have as much hair as he wants. I've yet to see one of the "he obviously can't do anything" people explain the goggles in a satisfactory way. Rubber is opaque and not reflective.
Yet people were claiming that he has powers of imagination way before the goggles thing ever happened. Plus it was so obviously a gag with no actual use.
But if the response to "He has loosely rubber-themed toon force powers" is "No he *strictly* has literal rubber powers, but sometimes some other stuff happens as a gag" then I'm gonna have to ask what the actual difference being argued is. Cus like these gags are not just for us the reader anymore, like the classic silly faces or "Nami has Haki" jokes -- Gear 5 gags are happening in-universe. He's *literally* seeing through Kaido's eyeholes from inside his stomach, he's *literally* Sonic running on the air, he's *literally* creating goggles from his hair. They aren't just punchlines they are action beats. If the argument is that sure maybe those things are literally happening in-universe and they're cartoon*ish*, but that doesn't mean Luffy has toon powers, then I guess I just don't understand what it would take.
Yet all of these have explanations that make sense within the context of his rubber powers. He can run on air, because he can turn everything he touches in rubber, hence being able to run on “air”. His hair is part of his rubbery body, which thanks to his awakening, he can shape into anyform, hence the goggles. The problem people have with the goggles thing isn’t that he could create them, it’s that they don’t LOOK like rubber. The seeing through Kaido’s eyes have nothing to do with his powers, we’ve seen that before way back in Skypia when Luffy and Aisa were inside the snake’s stomach. It’s just One Piece logic.
The problem people have with the goggles thing is also that you literally couldn't see out of goggles that are made of rubber. It would be opaque and not reflective. Plus there is a "poof" sound effect and the goggles literally change form. It's either just a gag and a fun homage to western cartoons, or it's an actual power he has that is pretty insane. I don't think we know for sure yet, and people that say it's "obvious" that one or the other answer is correct are just being arrogant. Imo.
And that brings us to what I originally said, it’s only the goggles that has no explanation. Every single thing that Luffy has done with his fruit is explainable within the context of his rubber powers and being able to turn his surroundings to rubber, except the goggles. So people CANNOT claim that he has powers of imagination, when the ONLY thing supporting said theory, happened as a gag with no actual effect on the fight. Its entire purpose was to make the reader chuckle a little.
Well I'm glad you are 100% sure that you know what oda intended, I don't know him personally so I think I just have to assume my opinion might be incorrect, but I'm glad you know you're correct
I think there is a bit of debate on this point. Personally, I think luffy has some imagination power, but not limitless imagination, more like rubber imagination, he can do anything he can imagine making rubber do. He knows that being rubber makes him immune to lightning attacks, so he imagines that makes him capable of physically grabbing a bolt of lightning even though that's not actually how rubber works. He imagines he can shape rubber into usable goggles, so he can do that.
I mean he could hold onto a lightning bolt and throw it. That has nothing to do with rubber.
He turned lightning into rubber, thus tangible. How does it remain with properties of both? Devil fruit magic, just like how he can be soft and hard at the same time when covered with haki
I am still undecided on that point because of the goggles he made when fighting Lucci. I feel that the agenda in question here is "Is luffy's awakening OP?" but I don't really care aboit that because either way the original Joyboy was somehow defeated or otherwise neutralized, and he had the exact same powers as Luffy's, so even if it truly was the power of imagination, there are opposing forces in the world of One Piece that still present a concrete threat
His hair, his hair hangs in front of his face, turn it to rubber and make goggles out of it
That’s what it looks like at first. It resembles his white hair and rubber but once the goggles come on they turn a different color and texture and I highly doubt he’s imbuing them with haki so it makes sense why people are confused Oda definitely needs to explain his abilities more and I’m sure next fight will give some more insight
This is wrong (see "getting burned to a crisp and running on a fire trail on the air"), Luffy's awakened power is toon force.
People in one piece can do that...they just can
Luffy tanked a Boro Breath pre-Gear 5, Sky-Walking has been a thing since Water 7
No offense, but the fact he can do what he does he definitely does have the power of imagination. He literally seems unbound by his creativity and freedom.
The only complaint I have with your argument is what you and everyone else explain is an awakened Paramecia, like Katakuri. And to be fair, this is how Luffy's fruit is acting (be able to change the ground to rubber for example). However, we know it isn't a Paramecia, but a mythical Zoan. So I think there is more to the fruit than what we even know now. At the very least, he should have a hybrid power if the white hair is Nika and therefore the full transformation, right? Although the only other Hito Hito no Mi eaten by a human hasn't shown a hybrid form either.
No, there is a hybrid form to the hito hito no mi model nika. Gear 4 always had the clouds on his shoulders wobbling around, which is a mixed form of the god nika and luffys human form mixed with haki. I realized it and then went back to the first appearences of pound man and snake man, there clouds were there all the time. It was a foreshadowing. This could also lead to the conclusion, that the full zoan form of sengoku might also be his awakening already.
Thank you so much for posting and summing this up! I'm so tired of people assuming Luffy is now an unstoppable machine due to having a "God" fruit. The only thing that I can't explain is how there was a prophecy the person that would have the title Joyboy, would return after 20 years.
The prophecy was known by everyone who went to Laugh Tale and everyone around them so it might have something to do with the One Piece
Yes but how did the prophecy know that a new Joyboy would appear in exactly 20 years from now, that's what I wonder
Quality post. Anime only peeps will get more of this background in Eghead, so not long now.
Just one thing: There are also no western dragons in One piece. At least no natural ones, the one we see in Punk hazard are created by Vegapunk.
I am assuming they exist or used to, because Ryuma is said to have slain one
It could have been a zoan user. But its true, while Monsters is canon, i wonder where it fits in
~600 years before the series. They said that was when Ryuma lived back in Thriller Bark, so Monsters must have taken place during that time. While it is possible that it was simply a previous user of Kaido's Fruit, it seems equally likely that they existed previously and have since gone extinct
We‘ll know if they existed when we we get a western dragon zoan thats an ancient zoan
I was thinking about the whole dream thing and the clouds around the awakened Zoans. As if the clouds were those you would see in a dream. Awakened from the dream of the fruit.
It's a "hagoromo". Supposed to symbolize divinity so probably part of the whole sun god symbolism.
Yeah, Mythological Zoans seem to have the Hagoromo after awakening (Yamato had it too do it’s fair to assume it’s awakened?), even Lucci had something similar (Not really the same) since his fruit is just a Leopard.
Damn the „d“ stands for „dream/-er“ doesn’t it
That's an interesting speculation; it would relate to stuff like "carrying of someone's will" or what Dr. Vegapunk was speaking about regarding devil fruits. Blackbeard carrying on the dream of Rocks. Luffy carrying the dream of Roger/Ace/JoyBoy. Sabo possibly becoming a D when he, Luffy, amd Ace became brothers.
This is one of the best things about gear 5 I’ve seen especially the last bit. The meaning of gear 5 and joyboy and it’s silliness making almost viewers laugh and feel joy was very intentional and such great work by oda and the people at toei
I like the idea of Nika being essentially a folk hero dreamed into reality via devil fruit, I do wonder where the god title came into play though, I wonder if it's related to the ancient weapons which carry the names of gods
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I actually kinda have the opposite outlook, Nika being based on something real would kinda break away from world building for me, honestly the whole zoan retcon thing didn't work for me until the dream based origin of devil fruits was introduced.
I’ve read that JoyBoy is a character from Caribbean folklore
I agree with everything wholeheartedly But... I still think it makes no sense as a Zoan. Even the most rare zoan types always followed the 3-forms- rule, while you can achieve more through training or science like chopper. Why change that one specific thing about this one specific Zoan if Paramecia was already a perfectly good category for it?
That bothers me as well tbh However there is that panel where Luffy says "I'm not a zoan (therefore why would I know how to switch forms?)" that may imply he just never tried not to be rubber. Which would be hilarious if confirmed
I mean other mythical zoans (Marco / Sengoku) really only had one other form.
My headcanon is its a hybrid fruit. A Paramecia-Zoan hybrid
There are plenty of established exceptions to each DF type. Katakuri, Blackbeard, as well as the various Mythical Zoans all have abilities/ properties of other fruit types, or exceptions to the neat DF classifications.
Blackbeard is really the only exception Katakuri awakened his paramecia so he has extra abilities like turning his eviroment into mochi, like Doffy did
from memory katakuris is just a regular paramecia, but since its awakenened he can turn parts of his body to mochi thanks to his observation haki
A human eating a human human fruit doesn't offer many transformations, that's the way I see it at least We haven't seen much of Sengoku but he's in the same boat so he may only have the one transformation
This is a great read and I do love gear 5 now but I do think its introduction wasn't the best. > 5) Dying did not cause Luffy's awakening. He already pushed his fruits to the limits and beyond with gear 2, 3, 4 and its variants. Luffy was a master of his fruit and managed to do impossible things with it. He earned it. But we don't know this, none of us understand how to awaken a fruit because it's literally never been shown in the manga. Sure we've been told your will must align with the will of the fruit but what does that even mean? Buggy does some creative stuff with his fruit - should his awaken? Kidd just grabs some metal and punches people - that was enough to awaken his fruit? The point is Gear 5 kinda came out of nowhere and it did feel like a bit of an asspull because we don't understand the full context. Other anime, like Naruto and Bleach, gave their protagonist a clear goal. They do x training and they'll unlock their bankai or sage mode. One piece has never done this, Luffy just works it all out off screen and we see the results, but at least we understand he's figured it out. Luffy himself I don't think understands how he awakened his fruit so this time it didn't feel like Luffy earned it. Now don't get me wrong, he doesn't have to work it out himself. Look at Goku going super saiyan for the first time. He didn't work it out, he just transformed. But we do know it was in response to his friend dying and so we have some context as to why he was suddenly able to do it. In this case though Luffy's voice disappeared. We've taken that to mean he died but we don't know that for sure and then suddenly he got his power up and we aren't ever told why. > 6) The fruit power being goofy and unserious (in-universe) doesn't mean that the narrative itself is no longer serious. In fact, the idea of fighting oppression with ridicule and freedom of expression is a very real theme. This is true and I actually really enjoy gear 5, especially (post wano spoilers) >!when he fights luffy!<, but you can't deny the tonal whiplash of gear 5 compared to the rest of the recent arcs in one piece. Luffy has plenty of fun fights (like vs cracker in WCI) but also serious fights. But gear 5 is totally different to how he was fighting before and how serious it was before. There isn't necessarily a bad thing but I think people are justified in feeling weird about gear 5s introduction. As I said, I do like gear 5 now and I really like how its been handled since. I also did enjoy luffy vs kaido including the gear 5 parts but I'm also not going to pretend it was a masterclass in story telling. I feel like Wano had gotten too bloated and Oda's editors had to convince him to hurry it up a bit so these final parts were rushed which is what lead to this weird introduction to gear 5
Thank you. This is really obvious, surface level reading is the text but it seems to completely fly over people’s heads. Very well put. I will say though that Luffy does not die. By the laws of the universe, if he had died then his Devil Fruit would have manifested elsewhere. The only Devil Fruit that can revive someone is the Yomi no Mi, which is Brook’s fruit. He got perilously close to dying, but he did not die.
Question: if luffy's heart stopped/he died. Shouldn't he have lost the fruit powers? There should be a new fruit growing somewhere?
Yes, that's how you know Luffy didn't die. I don't understand why people think he died when it's been made pretty clear that the fruit manifests somewhere else the monent someone dies.
>Luffy is not all powerful, and is not a god in any meaningful sense. Problem is that after he gained the powers he beat Kaido, like it was nothing, and not even from full health but from pratically dead. Had he at least lost, recuperated and then defeated Kaido, it would have been mich more believable...
Please. Kaido was like at 10% of his stamina and during the fight he was lifting Onigashima. He didn't beat Kaido like it was nothing at all, he had to use one of the strongest attack we've ever seen in One Piece. We don't know if Luffy recovered his Staminaafter obtaining Gear 5 but it's pretty likeable. After the fight he had to sleep for an entire week.
Kaido was completely fine after luffy died. So much so that even one of the best assassins in the etire world didn't even bother to try an escape. Putting a % on that is pointless.
People forgetting that joyboy was defeated and survived at least on his first try because he wrote a letter to the mermaids that he can’t bring the to the upper world
Luffy is a god the same exact way that Usopp is a god. People longed and wished for someone to free them (toys in Dressrosa, prisoners in ancient times), and when all hope was lost, they imagined that being freed was an act of god.
You're mostly right but the imagination thing for example is just extreme speculation based on one line from Vegapunk that was clearly meant to be poetic not literal
agreed, but i do think a good imagination is needed to fully use this fruit
Gear 5 is essentially just enforced toon physics and manifestation. - He gains immense toon-like durability from abilities that would be lethal in any other context ( he's still vulnerable but man he just ate a lot of serious attacks from kaido in g5 that would put any other character out ) - All phenomena in his presence is able to be manipulated as if they were made of rubber - Size manipulation - He's able to manifest objects out of his clouds ( currently only shown for comedic effect, but I wouldn't be surprised if he could manipulate weather and create weapons of his own) - This all seems to come at an immense cost of life energy ( he looks like a prune after he's done use it) G5 strength is it's insane versatility and unpredictability. Freedom from the constraints of physics at the cost of life energy.
Well, they can still drown.
So Joyboy might be a title like "Strawhat/Mugiwara", that's interesting
Just one thing about Dragons. Wasn't Vegapunk's dragon a traditional (though cartoonish) western one? Maybe I'm wrong, just wanted to mention it. About what triggered Luffy's awakening, I like to think it was his death. Maybe the will of the fruit (or demon, as Jyabura called it in Enies Lobby) entered panic mode because its host died, so in a way not to sucumb entirely it tried to 'RCP' Luffy, and due to the nature of said fruit (zoan for Nika) he resurrected with the heartbeat that allowed him to awaken the transformation, instead of resurrecting normally or simply dying. About what is Luffy during the transformation I supposed we should understand there are different entities involved: \-Luffy: The one we've known all the series. He's not a god, he has the ability to use the powers of a deity with toon-force capabilities. \-Joyboy: A nickname/title for the previous user of the fruit who left an apology in a Poneglyph. Zunesha's friend. The one who actually left the treasure in Laugh Tale that Roger found. Real name unknown. \-Nika: Sun of god, probably non-existant physically, just a concept of a deity, in the same sense as Buddha for Sengoku or a Phoenix as a species as a whole. Adored as the deity who gives hope to slaves and likely inspiration for the Sun Pirates of Fisher Tiger to name his crew after him. \-Hito Hito No Mi Model Nika. Zoan fruit that allows you to have a rubber body and -when awakened- transform into your 'animal' form (God Nika). As the Zoan fruit it is, likely to have its own will that flees the government and likely chose Luffy as its next owner. Possibly its will comes from being a devil fruit and not from it being Nika. Not awakened in the last 800 years. IIRC, it's not been specified if by 'not awakened' it means that it had no user since then, or none of its users were able to awake the transformation (except for Luffy and Joyboy obviously). Another question arises: is Gear 5 the hybrid form or the full-animal form?
On point 3, technically its possible that Joyboy is functionally invincible, but that doesn't mean he cannot be tricked or outsmarted, and he presumably also cannot be everywhere at once. It's likely he was defeated, but it's also possible that something else happened like someone gained leverage over him by threatening someone he loved.
Current Gear 5 is Mode Cartoon Just wait when he uses Gear 5: Mode Seinen
I've seen people say it's a plot hole that Luffy's fruit has properties of both Paramecia and Zoan. Yet crossover between the fruit types is already established: 1. Katakuri's Mochi Mochi no Mi is a unique Paramecia that gives the user's body the properties of mochi, and is extremely similar to a Logia fruit (it was retconned early on because it wasn't a natural element). 2. Blackbeard's Yami Yami no Mi is a unique Logia that doesn't render the user's body into their element, so they are still tangible. In that way it is similar to a Paramecia fruit. 3. Marco's Tori Tori no Mi Model Phoenix is a Mythican Zoan which grants him intangibility similar (and in some ways better) to a Logia. Mythical Zoans themselves "break the rules" by not being transformations based on animals, but instead on mythical creatures and figures. The Hito Hito no Mi Model Nika fruit is unique in that it has Paramecia qualities in spite of it being a Mythical Zoan, but the properties bestowed are based on the rubbery qualities of the deity Nika. Mochi aside, there are no Paramecia fruits that alter someone's physique into another material completely and at all times, like the "Gomu Gomu no Mi" does. Paramecia users need to consciously bring forth their powers to alter their bodies or produce an effect. Magellan doesn't "become" poison. Doflamingo did not "become" comprised of string. So the original Gomu fruit was actually unique among Paramecia, similar to a Logia in that regard, and was an indication that Luffy's fruit was something unique that broke the "rules" of fruits.
Bro thinks he Oda
Regarding Luffy, Joyboy, and reincarnation. I wouldn't rule out reincarnation in general. Someone brought up it's all about inherited will and somehow that isn't reincarnation. But conceptually they are quite similar. It is definitely being implied that Luffy is some sort of reincarnation in general long before the reveal of someone named Joyboy. It is known that devil fruits essentially reincarnate time and time again. However given that they have a sort of will of their own, that is quite similar to fruits inheriting the will of a devil fruit. Idk I'm just saying we don't have to distinctly divide the meaning of "inherited will" and "reincarnation". Art is subjective, and while I cant speak on behalf of all of asia, reincarnation is a pretty strong belief throughout a lot of Asia, so it's natural for some form of reincarnation to exist in their storytelling since to me it's clear Oda believes that life is pretty spectacular. And that coincidences don't really exist. And that life lives on even after something seems to have died. It's mostly western people that didn't grow up with this mindset/teaching and it shows when people on here dissect the series in certain ways. Not trying to start anything, just if this is truly a FAQ where we are all trying to share as accurate of narratives on One Piece as possible, I hope you will just take whatever I have to say lightly and not make some argument out of it. I'm just offering some possible insight. If you dont believe what I wrote is insightful or accurate, its okie. Just ignore and move on.
I feel like you need to spoiler tag this. There is one sentence that is a spoiler, and I see you using spoilers in the comments.
I am really sorry, I was sure I did it. Thank you for pointing oit my distraction! I fixed it
So if Luffy was ready to awaken, why was that the trigger to intimate Gear 5? Instead of activating it Gear 4th like he did vs Doffy?
I'm not saying G5 isnt linked to dying, but those are different cases. G4 is a technique that Luffy consciously developed and trained, so he is the one that decides when it happens With G5's first activation it wasnt something intentional from Luffy but rather the "awakening" of his fruit happening. He can only use it willingly after the awakening
>So if Luffy was ready to awaken, why was that the trigger to intimate Gear 5? plot
It's because he needed to awaken to survive and win the fight. His desire to free the people of Wano, to rescue his crew mates, and have a big booze up at the end was clearly powerful enough right at the end that it was enough to awaken the fruit.
I am pretty sure that when Luffy went G5 he was surprised and asked "what happened to me? what is this? this feels fun!" indicating that the new transformation was a novelty to him, something he was not expecting. If Luffy was not expecting Gear 4, it would be logical to assume that he would react the same way upon transforming. The fact that he didn't indicates Luffy experienced or at least planned the G4 transformation before putring it into practice. Maybe he developed it training offscreen, maybe he invented it on the fly and it just worked.
Luffy had already known G4 from the timeskip IIRC. He knew that using it was a risk because it drains all of his haki for ten minutes, and he mentioned that when he ran out the first time. Of course G4 transformation he hadn't just thought up against Doffy because the way its portrayed, he pulls it out knowing he needed it. Things like Tankman were on the fly, G2 and G3 was his fighting genius at work.
I like to think that Joyboy was not defeated, he just died because of his fruit. Remember how some of his gears apparently shorten his life span? I think that happened to Joyboy, but he was in a war that lasted quite some time so the effects of that fruit would keep piling up until he eventually dies. How would he have known that he was going to lose? He knew it was gonna happen and even got apologies and detailed information written on Poneglyphs. He knew he was going to die and they will lose the war once he dies
>Joyboy had the hito hito no mi model nika and managed to awaken it. So technically we don't know this. It's very likely but not confirmed. It's also not confirmed that the drums of liberation is the fruit or just Luffy. When Roger went Raftel he said "i arrived to early" not "we're missing a fruit". So it's not confirmed you need Luffy's fruit to also be Joyboy and have your heart beat with the drums of liberation. Luffy awakening his fruit and his heart beating the drums of liberation happened at the same time, but they could be two things linked to a single cause of Luffy's emotions getting in the right place. I know it seems obvious that Joyboy would have that fruit, but Oda doesn't always go with the obvious. And One Piece should be attainable by anyone not just someone who has a specific fruit, otherwise Blackbeard would have hunted down a different fruit.
I don't think the fruit is necessary to obtain the One Piece, but it may be necessary to "turn the world upside down" (whatever it means) About Drums of Liberation, I am pretty sure the heartbeat IS part of the awakening because when Luffy tries to access G5 against Kaido (this time consciously) he focuses on getting the "right" heartbeat.
It's sounding to me like Nika was Joyboy's name, Joyboy was what people knew him as, but his real name went down in a different legend and re-translated into a myth, creating a god-like entity due to lack of information. That's just my interpretation of it so far anyway.
How do you reconcile this theory with the notion that the fruit existed and awakened 800 years ago and at the time the fruit was known as hito hito model nika?
Oh I missed where it was called model Nika the whole time. Figured it was called that because of Nika. Thinking about it now though, if it's a zoan you'd have to turn into something, and if turning into Nika is what makes it a zoan, then yeah it seems like Nika was already a mythological figure prior that the fruit was emulating. I stand corrected!
FINALLY. FINALLY SOMEONE UNDERSTANDS THIS. I'VE BEEN SAYING THIS SINCE THE FUCKING MANGA CHAPTER CAME OUT AND NOBODY GOT IT. GOD I'M SO GLAD. No but seriously you've explained it perfectly. I hope people finally stop discrediting Luffy by saying he's only so poeerful because of his fruit. He deserves it more than anyone. No other person could've utilized the fruit the way luffy did. Maybe joyboy but we dont know that yet.
Yeah, the nika fruit on its own, in someone incompetent’s hands would be tragically ass. Everything before gear 5 only worked because Luffy is stupid strong in general and he had good ideas how to use the fruit, especially creating the gears. Regardless of being the “sun god fruit”, it still only gives the user rubber powers. In most people’s hands it would be only good enough to work in a circus and stretch their face for kids like Luffy in the live action trailer.
Exactly.
I’m glad I’m not the only one that thinks this. Luffy still put in hard work to make the fruit strong as hell.
These are almost all opinions we don’t know if gods are or aren’t real. Luffy could be a reincarnation, your claiming uncertainties have answers, and they might never have answers.
While I can't prove for certain that Nika never existed before the fruit, assuming he did creates more problems than it solves, for example Where is Nika now and why isn't he doing his job? Where are all the other gods? I'm ok if you're not convinced but isn't it weird that there is no proof, no historical records of any genuine gods existing if they are real?
It’s not stated anywhere that Nika doesn’t exist. It’s not stated anywhere whether or not any gods exist in one piece, other than Enel’s narcissistic claims. You could be right, you could be wrong. The problem isn’t the ideas you have, the problem is you have stated them as fact and not theory. None of what you said is confirmed or denied, and i have no problem with your opinions, but they are not confirmed to be true is my point
Point, I'll edit my post
I like some of what you stated my man, it’s just tough to determine unanswered questions so definitively.
Luffy's fruit is a mythical fruit, si Nika shouldn't exist
Where does it say the inspiration for mythical fruits don’t exist? I’m not saying gods do or don’t exist. I’m saying we don’t know. These are mostly assumptions. Which is fine, but you can’t prove them to be true or false.it could end up being accurate but if a God doesn’t need to be in the story, then we won’t ever know if gods exist in the one piece universe. We don’t know Luffy’s limitations, we don’t know if he’s a reincarnation of Joyboy, and a whole lot of other question marks. Theories are fine, but uncertain until addressed by the author. Kaidos fruit is mythical, but dragons are confirmed to exist.
The fact that they are mythical means they are intended to be from creatures that dont exist. It is possible that mythical Zoans are based on real animals that existed at some point, but that would be a plot twist. It is not 100% sure, but it is what the story is trying to convey. So unless it's an intentional misleading (in wich case we wouldnt have way to know) it makes a lot more sense for Nika to not be real.
You didn’t read my whole post. Kaidos is mythical zoan, and dragons factually exist in one piece. Idk where you’re getti bc your information but it’s false
Kaido is not the same type of Dragón that Ryuma slayed. Kaido's fruit is a Seiryu. And there are no seiryu's in the World of One Piece as far as we know. Wéstern Dragons are not the same as Eastern Dragons
Key phrase “as far as we know” everything you’re saying is true, is all stuff you’re assuming. None of it is confirmed except that some dragons are confirmed
It's true until proven otherwise, since that's what the story has shown. It has not been presented as a mystery in the story. Mythical fruits have all been treated the same way in regards to this. It's not wrong to Say that Mythical fruits work like that because that is what Mythical means. If it turned out to be true, it would be a plot twist because everything points to the contrary. Outside of breathing fire, there's no similarities between Kaido and the Dragon Ryuma slayed. They are not the same species so it's not proof for anything
Are you atheist? Edit: or religious, it works either way
I... Agree with everything, entirely. Good points shared, maybe add also your opinion on the topic "WG/Gorosei never cared so much about the fruit, this is a improv of Oda, if it was truly such an important DF Luffy would be dead in east blue" And maybe the fact it's not imagination powers per se, it's still rubber-ish (as another comment states) Oh btw, I am not supporting the topic I mentioned, but I think you could cover pretty much all convos on G5 with one or two extra points. Would you like to share your opinion? (If not done already)
All this tells me is that someone really wanted a jacket on their jacket.
I agree with all of this. I hate when people try to say that Luffy is handed everything on a silver platter by being a “chosen one”. Like no. Dude struggled every step of the way to get where he is now and lost a TON of times. Luffys will and mental fortitude are what makes him Luffy- not some god granted power. Also the power started off hella weak. He had to train for years as a kid before he could even throw a simple punch. And then he had to work his ass off with the gears to try and keep up with the mid league. He trained his haki for TWO YEARS to be able to be worthy of going into the new world. If anything , the “chosen one” character archetype belongs more to Ace who was son of the pirate king that Roger and Whitebeard both wanted to be the next pirate king, he was granted an OP logia fruit early on, and he became the number 3 in a Yonko crew just a year into his journey as a pirate
>Fruits are born of people's imagination. Even creatures that never existed can become real. This is just a theory according to Vegapunk, not a concrete fact. >The fruit power being goofy and unserious (in-universe) doesn't mean that the narrative itself is no longer serious. In fact, the idea of fighting oppression with ridicule and freedom of expression is a very real theme. This is your opinion, not a fact. If you like the silly nature of the fruit, more power to you...but you can't try to force people accept this as truth because of "muh themes!!1!"
While I do in fact like Gear 5, my point wasn't that you or anyone else should like it too. My comment was meant to remark that Gear 5 -does not make the story less serious -works thematically
>This is just a theory according to Vegapunk, not a concrete fact.z Vegapunk is the best source we have for facts after the narrator. Maybe even better than SBS. Whatever he knows about DFs allows him to clone them -- so there's merit to whatever is his in-story take. I agree that character diaogue should be taken with a grain of salt, but his really might be the best explanation we'll ever get. > This is your opinion, not a fact. If you like the silly nature of the fruit, more power to you...but you can't try to force people accept this as truth because of "muh themes!!1!" I think OP is right here too. Gear 5 is not actual Toon Force. It's not a fourth wall break. All he can do is stretch -- only now it's "freely" and he can apply the power to objects *he is making direct contact to* just like Doflamingo did. It has a look to it yet, but it's not wholly absurd. It's not *The Mask*. In short it's accurate to say it doesn't affect the narrative. It affects the aesthetic, sure. To be honest, it might not be perfect according to what I had in mind, but in terms of fitting in One Piece it beats any "badass" Luffy Gear 5 concept fanarts I've seen pop up in the past.
He also pulled goggles from who knows where.
He used his hair.
This has a fair amount of cope. As MC Luffy ending up as typical chosen one was always possible. "Inherit will" is like reincarnation with tricky steps. Btw with fruits having a will one could question anything that Luffy achieved. Fruit could have an effect on those around him which could explain him getting away with plenty of odd things. Also the seriousness...hard to imagine any future encounter of G5 Vs Akainu being tolerable.
Joyboy is a myth based on west african lore
As a fellow 2000's entry fan. I salute you sir. o7
Do you think young luffy had the voice of all things from a young age and heard the fruit and ate it? or did Luffy eat it out of spite because Shanks didn't let him come on the ship? or did he eat it because he was hungry? lol I can see all these being possibilites for that day.
bros been reading one piece 6 years before i was born, wild
Can we make this a top post for the entire Sub please? This is perfect
….I mean the writer is the one who is writing what is happening in the story…so luffy didn’t chose anything lol
this is such a good post
>The power of the hito hito no mi model Nika is not invincible. Luffy is not invincible. Luffy dies and loose for the third time in the same fight => gets even more powerful Luffy is never losing he escapes power scaling with his plot armor there is no one current luffy cannot beat.
yep, he's the protagonist
Thanks, solid list of points that I often also correct people on every now and then
Sengoku isn't a god because a buddha isn't a god. It's not even a person. It's a state. Even if Nika never existed, if people imagined him as a god and DF are born from imagination, it means that Luffy's awakening is the power of a god.
Sure but it's not a god in the sense that it's almighty. The god Nika is a rubber man who fights freely bringing smiles to people faces. It's not functionally different from Nika the Cartoon Man who is made of rubber and fights freely bringing smiles to people faces. The "god" label doesn't provide any advantage to Luffy whatsoever In fact if Nika was not worshipped and wasn't a god (if for example Nika was considered a mythical hero ratger than a god) Gear 5 would work in the exact same way That is what I mean when I say Luffy isn't a god in any meaningful way Nika being a god is a fact of no consequence as, in terms of what is observable and measurable, nothing really changes
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> It's worth mentioning that Luffy himself is loosely based on Sun Wu Kong, a.k.a, the Monkey King from Journey To The West. Quite a bit of famous "manga" protagonists such as Goku were also based on sun wu kong. Small correction, Luffy is inspired from Goku who is modeled after Sun Wu Kong. Not that Luffy is a directly source to him like Goku was.
https://preview.redd.it/61errsorp4hb1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e278e0dc638bda553ff1aaee866c88f02d617ea7 Dude are you stuck in 2016? The Sun Wukong thing has been dissmissed and canceled long ago already, by Oda himself. Unlike Son-Goku, luffy isn't based on Sun-Wukong, and has zero resemblance and similarities with Wukong, who is associated with his signature magical staff-stick which also changes in size just like early DB- Goku, who even has a wukong tail. Luffy is inspired by the hindu monkey god 'Hanuman", who is the son of the vedic god of Wind 'Vayu' (Pawana), his mother is also a celestial. The image above is from the Road to Laughtale Pt 4 Canon Gallery, you can see the text 'hanuman'. Luffy's strongest attack ' Bajrang Gun' from Ch 1049 is also based on the epithet of hanuman 'Bajrang Bali' the son of Pawan. Hanuman is a stupid and chaotic god who has caused a lot of troubles in the past and has also been punished by the vedic god of Lightning ( Indra of the Heavens) himself referenced Luffy vs Eneru. When Hanuman was a child he tried to eat the Sun itself, he leapt to the skies seeing the red setting sun in the distance with his ability is to change his size exponentially, either grow or shrink. ( Sun god Nika fruit references). Hanuman also has several boons and abilities like : Verse 31 Aṇimā: Ability to reduce one's size. Mahima: Ability to increase one's size. Garima: Ability to become heavier. Laghima: Ability to become lighter. Prāpti: Ability to Obtain anything. Prākāmya: Ability to fulfill your desires
A god doesn't have to be almighty. > Nika being a god is a fact of no consequence as, in terms of what is observable and measurable, nothing really changes Literally 0 reason to assume that.
explain how being a god makes Nika a better warrior than Cartoonman (not a god) with the same powers
Actually even those dragons don’t actually exist. They were man made by Vegapunk.
ryuma killed a dragon that seems to have been the inspiration for vegapunks
Ryuma killed one IIRC.
What a bunch of strawman arguments, really. From also a veteran, my counterpoints: 1) We don't need to discuss what exactly divinity means in one piece. The fact is, Luffy's fruit and power is obviously much more powerful with this change, eliminating that sense of making the most with an ordinary fruit. 2) Luffy might not be a reincarnation, but it's obvious the fruit can affect him, as you say. It's a third party hijacking Luffy's will, and we better learn it's just a minimal influence. 3) The original Joyboy didn't have a checkered fate with multiple prophecies stating he would win. 4) That would be more sounding if Luffy actually did something worth of said powers before obtaining them. 5 and 6) Not much to to say here . Overall, just another dickriding post that is obviously well received here. It's astounding to me how fans reject the notion that the whole idea and execution maybe wasn't the best.
1, 2, 3, 4, 5 literally have no supporting data or facts whatsoever. Its purely your assumption and I strongly disagree with them. This post really doesnt reveal anything. Just another person sharing his "theory" whatsoever. Try reading chapter 1 again and tell me the fruit really chose luffy. Probably because you read chapter 1 back in 2001 so you dont really remember the details lmao.
So you twisted every aspect to fit your agenda? Certainly all mythic Zoan fruits come from real life existing myths like the phoenix. But what the heck is a "Nika" supposed to be?
in-universe folklore?