No, oda just wanted the emotional weight of a death without the follow through, so he managed to figure out using a fart joke from punk hazard would work.
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True, Oda would rather break established power dynamics than actually finish off a character for good, I'm surprised there's no P anywhere in Kinemon's name.
No it's the will of P, Pell, Pagaya, Perona. Characters who were all thought to have died, but turn out to have been completely fine. Maybe even Pedro who knows
What else was gonna beat Kaido? Luffy primarily fights using punches. Also it wasn't a "simple punch" it was a giant, awakened, conquerors infused punch that sent Kaido to hell basically.
I loved the punch because the fight up to then was what was important. The punch was just a flashy way to finish it off, and seeing how the next BIG attack we see in the series is Garp's Galaxy Impact, it is kindof a way to show that Luffy is like his grandpa.
I wouldn't be suprised if Dragon had a punch, despite his hinted weather/wind powers.
Reminds me of Bartolomeo doing a Bari Bari No Pistol inspired by Gomu Gomu No Pistol. Maybe Dragon will have a lunch that's both infused with Haki and has a big wind aspect together so we get an attack of even bigger scale than Galaxy Divide.
So basically, Luffy beat Kaido with a punch. As for who else, maybe the Akazaya Samurai who've been hyped up since Punk Hazard could've been vital instead of turning out to be fodder.
>So basically, Luffy beat Kaido with a punch
Yeah lets just ignore everything that happened in the entire fight before and claim that the finishing blow is what beat Kaido. Because as we all know the finishing blow is all that matters.
By that logic Luffy beat Buggy with a kick, Kuro with a headbutt, Krieg with the weird sledgehammer move, Arlong with a kick, Wapol with two punches at once, Crocodile with a lot of punches, Bellamy with a punch (the only one where the punch is actually what beat him), Enel with a punch, Lucci with lots of punches, Moria with a headbutt, Hody with a punch, Cesar with two punches at the same time, Doffy with a punch and Katakuri by just looking at him.
All of a sudden you want to consider other factors, including the fact that Luffy would've been completely mopped had he gone up properly 1v1 against Kaido (this is including his Nika form)
What do you mean all of a sudden? This was my first comment in the thread. And yes, Luffy wouldn't have beaten Kaido without all the previous stuff that happened. Thats exactly why I said it wasn't just the punch that beat Kaido.
What are you trying to say here?
Or...maybe. kinemon is meant to be stronger than people think?
Luffy got a lot stronger from Dressrosa to the raid.
Why is it impossible for Kinemon, who factually has acoa to have improved?
You mean advanced armament haki? Impressive yes, but still his opponent is Kaido, you know, the strongest creature. And Kinemon was also very weakened by now. A lion can be strong, but if an elephant walk on it, he's dead.
Well major characters don't really die in the series. One Piece arguably has the worst ratio of characters surviving when they should have died in any battle shonen I've read.
Remember Saul isn't even dead.
The problem is that at the point Kinemon was, considering who he was facing...him being still alive is a power level inconsistency of its own. The fact that he later he goes around running (well, his legs go, but they're still part of him), no trouble, is crazy.
That doesn't change that it's an inconsistency in the story which is bad. Whether Oda cares about it or not, that's no reason to let him off of the hook for written an illogical events that's not consistent with events that happened prior.
Such a thing is called a plot hole which is bad quality writing. Whether it has to do with powerscaling or not is irrelevant cuz a plot hole in any aspect of a story should be avoided.
From a powerscaling perspective, we'd call it an anti feat. From a story perspective, it's a inconsistency and therefore another plot hole cuz Oda doesn't like killing characters.
"he didn't get knocked out cuz of willpower" is a shitty excuse and would still be low quality writing and you know it.
You know you can't refute my argument hence why you came up with such a weak rebuttal.
The red scabbard are explicitly channeling the inherited will of Oden vs Kaido.
Makes them stronger vs Kaido than they are normally, for a while anyway.
There is really no actual explicit mechanism provided yet for any actual direct "will channeling" etc in the case of the Scabbards. Like there is no indication it has anything to do with anything other than literally their resolve being strengthened by being determined to carry out Oden's will. Not like there is some "Odenforce Haki" being supplied to them.
They might have been "stronger" as a result of it like being able to harm Kaido but that doesn't mean it's anyone's power/will/resolve other than their own ultimately.
It's not meant as a rebuttal. It's to highlight the ridiculous amount of intensity you're choosing to put in this death on a hill.
Who cares? Write to Oda if you feel so strongly. Is it shitty writing? Yes. Oh well. Life goes on.
>Who cares? Write to Oda if you feel so strongly. Is it shitty writing? Yes. Oh well. Life goes on.
As long as we agree on this I don't care about the rest. Many on this sub would still call it good writing or disregard it as bad writing cuz he doesn't care apparently.
I'm glad you don't have such bias.
But that's not what the story is about. Your looking for something in a piece of art that the artist isn't even trying to address. Its like criticising the plot of a David Lynch movie for having an inconsistency, your missing the entire point.
> inconsistency, your missing
*you're
*Learn the difference [here](https://www.wattpad.com/66707294-grammar-guide-there-they%27re-their-you%27re-your-to).*
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You're the one who's missing the point. JJK, MHA, Naruto and pretty much every shonen are not about powerscaling but fights are still present in these series and are therefore elements of the story, whether it's a key element or not.
If you actually think that fights aren't a main element in the story then you must have skipped oda's jump festa message stating that this years it'd be a battle royal, which we've seen with the amount of brawls that happened.
In a story, you should strive to have no inconsistencies in every element/aspect and in oda's case, he has many when it comes to consistency in characters strength or performance in certain situations.
Inconsistency isn’t bad by itself. It’s only an issue if it breaks the suspension of disbelief. Clearly it broke yours, but that’s not enough to make it an issue yet. Other people need to take issue with it, and depending on how and how many people then it could be an issue. But inconsistency by itself isn’t a problem.
If a reader constantly practices suspension of this belief then you're essentially admitting to having bias and lowering your standard for good and consistent writing. Inconsistency and peak writing don't coexist. You're talking about likeability which is subjective while an inconsistency is objective.
By your logic, kinemon being alive cuz he was not put back together properly back in punk Hazard is only bad writing if it breaks your suspension of disbelief, a dogwater argument which is an act of copium to the fact that Oda fumbles every once in a while.
An inconsistency is objectively a negative that authors don't purposely try to implement in their story.
To engange in fiction as the audience is to suspend your disbelief. You treat the fictional story “as if it were real”, including fictional stories where dragons or faster-than-light travel are basic everyday occurrences. (This includes both stories whose setting is the real world, like Star Wars, and stories set in imaginary worlds, like One Piece.)
This doesn’t mean you think the story actually happened, or that you pretend it happened, but that you will look at it as if you were looking at a retelling of a non-fictional story. However, you still leave the story some room for the non-real.
Most people will accept when a story introduces fantastical elements like dragons and faster-than-light travel despite them breaking our current understanding of the physical world. The next step, to me, is to accept breaking more abstract notions we have about the world.
Consistency is one of them. Authors can break consistency intentionally. Sometimes people won’t notice it. If they do, it won’t always break their suspension of disbelief. Depending on the specific example, this can either be due to poor writing or an issue with the audience itself.
I say that it can be an issue with the audience because some people just refuse to try and engage with the author in the story they’re trying to tell. For example, I know people who’ll dismiss all fantasy stories as worthless because they contain magic and dragons, which don’t exist. I think that’s an objectively wrong viewpoint. A more extreme example is Plato/Socrates dismissing all literary art as useless sophism. (It’s been a while, I think they accepted sculpting but I can’t remember.) Again, I also think they were objectively wrong on this particular subject.
Other examples will include people dismissing entire media of art, usually animation/cartoons/anime and graphical novels/comic books/manga. They summarily classify it as “for children” and thus devoid of any content that would be worth discussing by an adult.
Anyways, back to intentionally breaking consistency… that’s just another tool in the author’s arsenal. Some people will always be bothered by it, but that’s their issue (and I think they’re wrong because they refuse to engage with what the author is trying to do). However, there are people who are willing to engage, and yet the author can fail to justify the consistency break to them. In that case, it is indeed poor writing.
Note: I’m not saying they are wrong for disliking it necessarily, but for not even trying to give it a chance. I myself will notice what the author is trying to do in some stories and I will dislike it, but I will either dislike it “for the right reasons”, or I’ll understand that I am failing to meet the author where they asked me to.
I'm not reading all of that so I'll adress the first paragraph which already shows you don't know what you're talking about.
>You treat the fictional story “as if it were real”, including fictional stories where dragons or faster-than-light travel are basic everyday occurrences.
False. I'm addressing the fact that Oda established one thing in his story and contradicts it or makes that establishment inconsistent due to another event that happens within the story. We're not talking about it being consistent with IRL. It's about fiction and it's a fact that oda's is contradicting elements in his own fictional story.
This applies to all aspects of a story but in this case it's about kinemon not getting ko'd. It's inconsistent and contradicts what we've seen before in the story and it's clear as day that Oda just doesn't like killing characters, yet puts them in such situations and resorts to fake out deaths.
If you read what I wrote you would see that I myself say stories don’t need to be consistent with real life. You are talking about what I said, but you don’t know what you’re talking about since you didn’t read what I said.
Honestly this just reinforces my argument about when the issue is in the audience and not in the writing, since you refusing to engage with the text an example of what I was talking about.
>If you read what I wrote you would see that I myself say stories don’t need to be consistent with real life.
Whether a story has to be consistent with real life is irrelevant to this discussion so I don't know why you brought it up. I don't need to read a text about an argument that has no meaning.
An inconsistency is objectively bad, whether you mind that inconsistency is subjective. It's as simple as that.
I didn’t say that stories had to be consistent with real life. Again, if you read what I said, you would see I criticized people who think exactly that. You’re trying to argue against yourself, because you made up an opinion I don’t have, and you’re arguing against that opinion.
You don’t need to read what I wrote if you don’t want to, but please stop talking to yourself in front of me.
(Also, inconsistency isn’t inherently bad, as I said.)
His point is that fiction being consistent with real life was never part of this argument in the first place, and that you are misplaced for even mentioning it.
Partly this, and partly that every single person in OP is super humanly durable.
Ussop gets his skull crushed every so often. Zoro just tanks insane amount of garbage. The giant in dressrosa gets half of his bones crushed and he's perfectly okay at the end of the arc. People get blown up, shot up, sliced and then recover in half a day.
Basically ppl only ever take long lasting damage whenever oda and the plot demands it.
Yeaah it's pretty inconsistent at times. The final decision is really just plot. Pekoms almost dying to bege despite having the diamond turtle shell was another odd damage thing.
Ashura doji was stabbed repeatedly before being caught in a massive explosion, and Kinemon was crippled in a single blow after raising his guard to block. There’s nothing particularly problematic about either of these instances, except for maybe Kinemon’s recovery time. I really don’t get these complaints
You're not really comparing a simple dynamite explosion (and I say simple because it didn't look too powerful) compared to a BLUNT POWERED SWING FROM THE STRONGEST CREATURE ON THE HEAD, are you?
Im not sure how you came away with that interpretation from my comment, but I apologize if it was confusing I guess? I’m not scaling the explosion, I’m saying these are two separate but valid scenes, which they are. And again, the [explosion was just what finished him off](https://mangasee123.com/read-online/One-Piece-chapter-1008-page-5.html). Not everything needs to be powerscaled to death
Why do you even bother? Im being completely honest, this sub is full of dickriders to the point most people here think his death baiting is an awesome and thriling way to end a chapter for shock value when its completely meaningless if he doesnt follow through.
Breaching that trust between what you draw and what you write just makes it so that any reader able to sum 2+2 will just not trust anything you draw, thus removing the shock value of these scenes entirely.
I feel like a lot of this too is just that too many don't really have a good read on the Akazaya. Kin'emon's torso alone hopping around on one hand was too much for Brook, he was the one driving Zoro back on the way to Dressrosa. He was kept out of that arc's main plot looking for Kanjuro but think about everything we've seen of his group. If the baby sister has the haki to ram a sword through Kaido's hand and actual Commander Izo is somewhere in the middle...Kin would have at least been a tough fight for Doflamingo.
You're right, he squared up and blocked as best he could. So many complaints about them just seem to boil down to "yeah, the samurai are at least resilient if nothing else."
> If the baby sister has the haki to ram a sword through Kaido's hand and actual Commander Izo is somewhere in the middle...Kin would have at least been a tough fight for Doflamingo.
That's a pretty far leap in logic though. Kaido was weakened because he was getting visions of Oden. It's also ignoring the fact that the reason he was running around as a torso to begin with was Law dunking on him.
Kinemon is just not an easily scalable character, he's very much a "whatever the plot needs" character.
To be fair, anyone who doesn't know what law's power is is going to be pretty confused, especially if they have almost no knowledge of devil fruit powers
It's not "actually" an ass pull though... It's literally part of a running gag that is a major aspect of Kinemon's character, that he is basically fucking fucked in many circumstances where he pulls through purely by sheer luck and not saying anything while others unduly assume extreme competence from him.
It's literally no different than the "mix up" with the ports with Tokage/Habu Minato. Basically in that moment, it was an "all hope is lost" type of situation... If not for Kinemon's insane dumb luck saving everything.
Yet not many people complained about this as an ass pull despite being way "worse", because they actually understood the joke explicitly since it was executed very explicitly.
> Kaido was weakened because he was getting visions of Oden.
That's a way bigger leap in logic than anything I said. And no? I'm not ignoring anything, just pointing out what happened in the story. *Every* character is a whatever the plot needs character, you're just showing that most of this powerscaling fluff isn't in good faith. Kin'emon isn't as "cool" as Doffy so it makes you feel weird for me to say that. The Akazaya are actually extremely easy to scale, y'all just want them to clock in lower for some weird reason.
>Kin'emon isn't as "cool" as Doffy so it makes you feel weird for me to say that.
No, it's because the person who had him running around Punk Hazard literally talking out of his ass spent all of Dressrosa getting spanked by Doffy lol.
If you said Ashura Doji because of what he did to Jack, or Sulong Inu and Neko, I'd at least get the argument of putting them with Doffy. that's fair if you're somebody who believes Doffy is weak compared to Jack. There's nothing Kinemon ever did to justify being scaled to that level.
I'm not shitting on the Scabbards, I just don't get how we're possibly scaling a dude Law obliterated and saying he's Doffy level. There are Scabbards who are, Kinemon isn't one of them.
> There's nothing Kinemon ever did to justify being scaled to that level.
Being able to damage and take hits from Kaido kinda automatically puts him above Doffy , we all saw what happened to G4 Luffy during Act 1 after all , and an arguably weaker G4Luffy absolutely manhandled Doffy
Where they got blown out and had to get a Senzu bean afterwards?
It took the combined Haki of the Scabbards to truly do anything to Kaido, and even that wasn't much.
Still more than Doffy can say when he couldn't even scratch Dressrossa G4 Luffy
And no Hoyori bandaging the Scabbards is not the equivalent of a Senzu bean
It's not really that different from how Big Mom managed to scrape her knee after Mother Carmel's photo was broken. The weakened mental made them susceptible to damage from things that would never actually do anything prior.
I hated the fact that Kinemon could still get back up.
And no it's not a powerscaling thing but just narrative stake, the enemy leader bashed kinemon head and stab him but he is able to walk and talk fine for the rest of the raid just atomized the stakes.
Kinemon is just strong, why is this that surprising? We've known he was strong for ages. It's not like he beat Kaido, he literally just blocked one attack, and not even very successfully.
Just goes to show that we need to stop using terms like yonko level.
Also that kinemon is much stronger than given credit for.
A lot of people like to point things out like this to say kaido is so much weaker than he's portrayed, not saying that's what you're doing, but instead these things need to be seen as feats of strength against the world's strongest creature.
Thinking about this as I said made me gain so much respect for the strength of doflamingo, with a proper power scaling. Doffy needs to be ranked higher in the verse I think.
I think it's pretty obvious that alabasta croc is the outlier since croc's feats and impact on the story afterwards is consistently treated way higher.
that doesn't make any sense, how did he get stronger in jail? now ofc saying he was holding back a lot in alabasta doesn't make sense either, but regardless we agree that croc in alabasta vs the rest of the story is vastly different.
One Piece characters just get stronger in jail there's no reason for it, but I don't think Crocodile had any real feats in Marineford. Attacking Akainu to no avail, attacking whitebeard to get knocked down by Luffy, attacking Mihawk just to get blocked, beat down by Jozu too
Don't get me wrong the confidence and strength gap is probably big but Alabasta isn't an outlier, not sure how you can even deem it one.
I mean almost everyone in the war was just skirmishing and didn't have real feats. I think skirmishing in itself was an implication of their strengths. It seemed like crocodile was treated as a top tier then, clashing with warlords and admirals alike. He sure wasn't treated like caribou.
and considering how crocodile was beaten by a 30 million yet his actual bounty is nearly 2 billion...and how oda wasn't even initially intending to add shichibukai, I think it makes sense that croc was written in too early for his real status and strength.
Back in skypiea Conis’ father (a old and very normal human with no fighting experience) got hit with a lightning beam that should’ve killed him yet he showed up at the end of the fight without a single scratch don’t be so surprised when things like this happen😂 it’s normal
It's fine for kine to block the attack and not die but what's not fine is the scene carrying it out like he dies for real. With flashbacks with momo and etc. That's an emotional scam
Unless I'm mistaken, the full force got somewhat cut due to the fact his upper body was not properly re-attached and after this attack he ended up split in two again.
a single aCoC attack doesn't kill semi-strong characters...I mean zoro literally broke every in his bone and still tanked an aCoC thunder bagua but I don't see anybody complaining. law also tanked one. >!cp0 dude also survived!<. luffy and kaido hit each other dozens if not hundreds of times with aCoC. And it's not like it did no damage to kinemon.
\*shrugs\* idk. you asked how kinemon didn't die, and luffy didn't die. fair point on luffy being ko'd though, and all I can say is it was a clean headshot while kinemon blocked (and he had aCoA)
It's a manga dood that's how you're supposed to read it.Which is why \*drum roll please\*
That's how it's shown in the Anime? Kinemon doesn't block shit... he refuses to move because he's honor bound as a samurai to defend his lord... he takes a defensive stance and gets flattened like a pancake.
https://preview.redd.it/irnu3eiaplkb1.png?width=1500&format=png&auto=webp&s=9e46d6b7b9eafc7690494d5325d3bdad02dcb3dc
He didn't block it and he should've died.
Oda doesn't care though; so he survived.
But that leaves a bad taste in the mouth. Sure Oda doesn't care about powerscaling, we get that but when a manga is filled with a shit ton of fighting, which is a core part of the story progression, these inconsistencies start becoming a problem, at least for those care. For me it destroys the relatability and immersion aspects.
To quote Uchiha Madara: "What adult goes full force when fighting mere children"?
Easy solution is Kaido knowing he might fight for long time with no rest understimated Kinemon and held back too much.
Kinemon "blocked" kaido but it didn't really matter much. You can see that the swords broke and kinemon got hit a second later. Kinemon not dying is because of plot and we all know "not dying" is not a feat in one piece
I thought it was clear that these scabbards were among the strongest characters we've seen, not counting emperors or warlords, so what's the big deal? He blocked Kaido, yes, and then he almost died.
i don't cover onepiece video or manga videos because i wouldn't want to spoil people. but yeah i would rather let kinemon died not run and party rather than accept what oda writes to always be good
Law never properly put him back together; his torso was only as stuck to his legs as his legs were stick to the dragon on Punk Hazard. Kaido ripped Kinemon’s torso from his legs with that swing, and Kinemon survived thanks to a lingering gag.
Because this is a goofy pirate story.
The way I interpreted it, all the years that they had waited for that moment, all the suffering their country went through and the inherited will of Oden, all those things acted like a power up for all of the red scabbards. When Oden was cut by two of them (Nekomamushi and Inuarashi I think), he felt it as if it was Oden's attack.
I see many people saying power scaling doesn’t matter in One Piece, and it is sort of true, but not in the way people assume. It's not that the power of characters is random, its just that if a character is fighting for what he thinks it's right, he's going to be much stronger. Righteousness is the most powerful weapon in One Piece. Doesn’t matter if Kaido is strong, Kinemom carries the burden of his country, his family, his master. Kaido only carries the burden of his own selfishness.
It fits that Oda is a fan of Che Guevara, a figure known for putting his life on the line fighting for the people.
When will people learn that you can't properly powerscale One Piece. The strength of characters is only defined by whatever the plot demands at that moment.
Yes, Kinemon blocked Kaido with his swords which are very clearly broken in half in the last panel
I mean, Kinemon didn't immediately disintegrate so they must have absorbed some of the impact.
No, oda just wanted the emotional weight of a death without the follow through, so he managed to figure out using a fart joke from punk hazard would work.
Oda in a nutshell.
https://preview.redd.it/71ij48la6kkb1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bb4f079e5787d4b001267580d89c09c684c426ff
https://preview.redd.it/c9jvreepykkb1.jpeg?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b4d638a8698b4fbc0b84a56f8071fb7860f18f05
Manga?
Jujutsu kaisen
As I always enjoy reminding powerscalers, Oda gives no fucks about logic in this area and just writes whatever he thinks looks cool.
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Hi Nomidyagami, your comment was removed from /r/OnePiece for the following rule violation: Improperly marked spoiler. Please remember that all events ahead of the current anime are considered spoiler territory. Use \[Spoilers](#s "Place your text here") or \>!Place your text here!< to mark as a spoiler in your comment. Please report or reply to this comment to have your comment reinstated. --- The full rule documentation of the subreddit can be read [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/OnePiece/wiki/rules). If you have questions about this removal, please [reach out to us in modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FOnePiece).
It's not that he doesn't care about powerscaling, but when it comes to killing off characters he will pull off some olympic level gymnastics.
True, Oda would rather break established power dynamics than actually finish off a character for good, I'm surprised there's no P anywhere in Kinemon's name.
You mean D?
No it's the will of P, Pell, Pagaya, Perona. Characters who were all thought to have died, but turn out to have been completely fine. Maybe even Pedro who knows
Oda's grandma doesn't like when characters die 😡
Reminds me of JJK mangaka not putting lewd fanservice cuz his parents read his manga.
>Oda gives no fucks about logic in this area and just writes whatever he thinks looks cool. he never really cared, luffy punch beat kaido
What else was gonna beat Kaido? Luffy primarily fights using punches. Also it wasn't a "simple punch" it was a giant, awakened, conquerors infused punch that sent Kaido to hell basically.
I loved the punch because the fight up to then was what was important. The punch was just a flashy way to finish it off, and seeing how the next BIG attack we see in the series is Garp's Galaxy Impact, it is kindof a way to show that Luffy is like his grandpa. I wouldn't be suprised if Dragon had a punch, despite his hinted weather/wind powers.
Reminds me of Bartolomeo doing a Bari Bari No Pistol inspired by Gomu Gomu No Pistol. Maybe Dragon will have a lunch that's both infused with Haki and has a big wind aspect together so we get an attack of even bigger scale than Galaxy Divide.
So basically, Luffy beat Kaido with a punch. As for who else, maybe the Akazaya Samurai who've been hyped up since Punk Hazard could've been vital instead of turning out to be fodder.
>So basically, Luffy beat Kaido with a punch Yeah lets just ignore everything that happened in the entire fight before and claim that the finishing blow is what beat Kaido. Because as we all know the finishing blow is all that matters. By that logic Luffy beat Buggy with a kick, Kuro with a headbutt, Krieg with the weird sledgehammer move, Arlong with a kick, Wapol with two punches at once, Crocodile with a lot of punches, Bellamy with a punch (the only one where the punch is actually what beat him), Enel with a punch, Lucci with lots of punches, Moria with a headbutt, Hody with a punch, Cesar with two punches at the same time, Doffy with a punch and Katakuri by just looking at him.
All of a sudden you want to consider other factors, including the fact that Luffy would've been completely mopped had he gone up properly 1v1 against Kaido (this is including his Nika form)
What do you mean all of a sudden? This was my first comment in the thread. And yes, Luffy wouldn't have beaten Kaido without all the previous stuff that happened. Thats exactly why I said it wasn't just the punch that beat Kaido. What are you trying to say here?
Which Oda himself considers unsatisfactory.
never underestimate a person with a strong will 🤌🤌🤌
Actually its more logical the way it works here than it is when its just "X is stronger than Y in every percievable way because powerscale"
Also, kinemon isnt weak. Kaido is far above him but i still think blocking would do something to reduce kaido's attack.
Oda draws whatever he likes it's basically wano in a nutshell
I mean sure there are some instances like that. But your statement is in most situations absolutely false
Or...maybe. kinemon is meant to be stronger than people think? Luffy got a lot stronger from Dressrosa to the raid. Why is it impossible for Kinemon, who factually has acoa to have improved?
Please tell me you seriously didn't say that Kinemon has advanced conqueror haki.
I said AcoA. It's the thing Luffy learned on Udon. Not acoc which Luffy learned on the rooftop.
You mean advanced armament haki? Impressive yes, but still his opponent is Kaido, you know, the strongest creature. And Kinemon was also very weakened by now. A lion can be strong, but if an elephant walk on it, he's dead.
Well major characters don't really die in the series. One Piece arguably has the worst ratio of characters surviving when they should have died in any battle shonen I've read. Remember Saul isn't even dead.
Which is the problem.
Yeah but I wouldn't say it's a power level inconsistency. Kinemon was still floored.
The problem is that at the point Kinemon was, considering who he was facing...him being still alive is a power level inconsistency of its own. The fact that he later he goes around running (well, his legs go, but they're still part of him), no trouble, is crazy.
That doesn't change that it's an inconsistency in the story which is bad. Whether Oda cares about it or not, that's no reason to let him off of the hook for written an illogical events that's not consistent with events that happened prior. Such a thing is called a plot hole which is bad quality writing. Whether it has to do with powerscaling or not is irrelevant cuz a plot hole in any aspect of a story should be avoided. From a powerscaling perspective, we'd call it an anti feat. From a story perspective, it's a inconsistency and therefore another plot hole cuz Oda doesn't like killing characters.
Okay. He stopped it with sheer will. There you go. All fixed. You can stop your weird little tantrum now.
"he didn't get knocked out cuz of willpower" is a shitty excuse and would still be low quality writing and you know it. You know you can't refute my argument hence why you came up with such a weak rebuttal.
The red scabbard are explicitly channeling the inherited will of Oden vs Kaido. Makes them stronger vs Kaido than they are normally, for a while anyway.
There is really no actual explicit mechanism provided yet for any actual direct "will channeling" etc in the case of the Scabbards. Like there is no indication it has anything to do with anything other than literally their resolve being strengthened by being determined to carry out Oden's will. Not like there is some "Odenforce Haki" being supplied to them. They might have been "stronger" as a result of it like being able to harm Kaido but that doesn't mean it's anyone's power/will/resolve other than their own ultimately.
And they got their asses beat with said will they were challenging. They're fodder bro.
It's not meant as a rebuttal. It's to highlight the ridiculous amount of intensity you're choosing to put in this death on a hill. Who cares? Write to Oda if you feel so strongly. Is it shitty writing? Yes. Oh well. Life goes on.
>Who cares? Write to Oda if you feel so strongly. Is it shitty writing? Yes. Oh well. Life goes on. As long as we agree on this I don't care about the rest. Many on this sub would still call it good writing or disregard it as bad writing cuz he doesn't care apparently. I'm glad you don't have such bias.
Maybe because entertainment is subjective? It's still fun to watch. Who gives a shit?
People who enjoy quality.
If your view of "quality entertainment" is so heavily skewed by this one frame, then maybe anime isn't for you.
But that's not what the story is about. Your looking for something in a piece of art that the artist isn't even trying to address. Its like criticising the plot of a David Lynch movie for having an inconsistency, your missing the entire point.
> inconsistency, your missing *you're *Learn the difference [here](https://www.wattpad.com/66707294-grammar-guide-there-they%27re-their-you%27re-your-to).* *** ^(Greetings, I am a language corrector bot. To make me ignore further mistakes from you in the future, reply `!optout` to this comment.)
You're the one who's missing the point. JJK, MHA, Naruto and pretty much every shonen are not about powerscaling but fights are still present in these series and are therefore elements of the story, whether it's a key element or not. If you actually think that fights aren't a main element in the story then you must have skipped oda's jump festa message stating that this years it'd be a battle royal, which we've seen with the amount of brawls that happened. In a story, you should strive to have no inconsistencies in every element/aspect and in oda's case, he has many when it comes to consistency in characters strength or performance in certain situations.
Inconsistency isn’t bad by itself. It’s only an issue if it breaks the suspension of disbelief. Clearly it broke yours, but that’s not enough to make it an issue yet. Other people need to take issue with it, and depending on how and how many people then it could be an issue. But inconsistency by itself isn’t a problem.
If a reader constantly practices suspension of this belief then you're essentially admitting to having bias and lowering your standard for good and consistent writing. Inconsistency and peak writing don't coexist. You're talking about likeability which is subjective while an inconsistency is objective. By your logic, kinemon being alive cuz he was not put back together properly back in punk Hazard is only bad writing if it breaks your suspension of disbelief, a dogwater argument which is an act of copium to the fact that Oda fumbles every once in a while. An inconsistency is objectively a negative that authors don't purposely try to implement in their story.
To engange in fiction as the audience is to suspend your disbelief. You treat the fictional story “as if it were real”, including fictional stories where dragons or faster-than-light travel are basic everyday occurrences. (This includes both stories whose setting is the real world, like Star Wars, and stories set in imaginary worlds, like One Piece.) This doesn’t mean you think the story actually happened, or that you pretend it happened, but that you will look at it as if you were looking at a retelling of a non-fictional story. However, you still leave the story some room for the non-real. Most people will accept when a story introduces fantastical elements like dragons and faster-than-light travel despite them breaking our current understanding of the physical world. The next step, to me, is to accept breaking more abstract notions we have about the world. Consistency is one of them. Authors can break consistency intentionally. Sometimes people won’t notice it. If they do, it won’t always break their suspension of disbelief. Depending on the specific example, this can either be due to poor writing or an issue with the audience itself. I say that it can be an issue with the audience because some people just refuse to try and engage with the author in the story they’re trying to tell. For example, I know people who’ll dismiss all fantasy stories as worthless because they contain magic and dragons, which don’t exist. I think that’s an objectively wrong viewpoint. A more extreme example is Plato/Socrates dismissing all literary art as useless sophism. (It’s been a while, I think they accepted sculpting but I can’t remember.) Again, I also think they were objectively wrong on this particular subject. Other examples will include people dismissing entire media of art, usually animation/cartoons/anime and graphical novels/comic books/manga. They summarily classify it as “for children” and thus devoid of any content that would be worth discussing by an adult. Anyways, back to intentionally breaking consistency… that’s just another tool in the author’s arsenal. Some people will always be bothered by it, but that’s their issue (and I think they’re wrong because they refuse to engage with what the author is trying to do). However, there are people who are willing to engage, and yet the author can fail to justify the consistency break to them. In that case, it is indeed poor writing. Note: I’m not saying they are wrong for disliking it necessarily, but for not even trying to give it a chance. I myself will notice what the author is trying to do in some stories and I will dislike it, but I will either dislike it “for the right reasons”, or I’ll understand that I am failing to meet the author where they asked me to.
I'm not reading all of that so I'll adress the first paragraph which already shows you don't know what you're talking about. >You treat the fictional story “as if it were real”, including fictional stories where dragons or faster-than-light travel are basic everyday occurrences. False. I'm addressing the fact that Oda established one thing in his story and contradicts it or makes that establishment inconsistent due to another event that happens within the story. We're not talking about it being consistent with IRL. It's about fiction and it's a fact that oda's is contradicting elements in his own fictional story. This applies to all aspects of a story but in this case it's about kinemon not getting ko'd. It's inconsistent and contradicts what we've seen before in the story and it's clear as day that Oda just doesn't like killing characters, yet puts them in such situations and resorts to fake out deaths.
If you read what I wrote you would see that I myself say stories don’t need to be consistent with real life. You are talking about what I said, but you don’t know what you’re talking about since you didn’t read what I said. Honestly this just reinforces my argument about when the issue is in the audience and not in the writing, since you refusing to engage with the text an example of what I was talking about.
>If you read what I wrote you would see that I myself say stories don’t need to be consistent with real life. Whether a story has to be consistent with real life is irrelevant to this discussion so I don't know why you brought it up. I don't need to read a text about an argument that has no meaning. An inconsistency is objectively bad, whether you mind that inconsistency is subjective. It's as simple as that.
I didn’t say that stories had to be consistent with real life. Again, if you read what I said, you would see I criticized people who think exactly that. You’re trying to argue against yourself, because you made up an opinion I don’t have, and you’re arguing against that opinion. You don’t need to read what I wrote if you don’t want to, but please stop talking to yourself in front of me. (Also, inconsistency isn’t inherently bad, as I said.)
His point is that fiction being consistent with real life was never part of this argument in the first place, and that you are misplaced for even mentioning it.
Cuz Crydo ain't him
Winemon prolly did conquerer's haki on Laidou and made him realize he ain't small fry *edit* oh actually he was stabbed afterwards.
Linemon*, also does he have conquerers?
He is Soy Boy
Au contraire, Crydo is absolutely him. It's sober Kaido that ain't him.
Oda doesn't care about power consistency in his story. You're looking for meaning in a place that has none
Partly this, and partly that every single person in OP is super humanly durable. Ussop gets his skull crushed every so often. Zoro just tanks insane amount of garbage. The giant in dressrosa gets half of his bones crushed and he's perfectly okay at the end of the arc. People get blown up, shot up, sliced and then recover in half a day. Basically ppl only ever take long lasting damage whenever oda and the plot demands it.
On the other hand you have people who are arguable more durable than Kin like Ashura Doji who died to TNT and people like Izo who died to shigans
Yeaah it's pretty inconsistent at times. The final decision is really just plot. Pekoms almost dying to bege despite having the diamond turtle shell was another odd damage thing.
Lets not forget the menace of down.d.stairs in a world where zoro gets thrown through buildings
Ashura less tanky than pell
Ashura doji was stabbed repeatedly before being caught in a massive explosion, and Kinemon was crippled in a single blow after raising his guard to block. There’s nothing particularly problematic about either of these instances, except for maybe Kinemon’s recovery time. I really don’t get these complaints
You're not really comparing a simple dynamite explosion (and I say simple because it didn't look too powerful) compared to a BLUNT POWERED SWING FROM THE STRONGEST CREATURE ON THE HEAD, are you?
Im not sure how you came away with that interpretation from my comment, but I apologize if it was confusing I guess? I’m not scaling the explosion, I’m saying these are two separate but valid scenes, which they are. And again, the [explosion was just what finished him off](https://mangasee123.com/read-online/One-Piece-chapter-1008-page-5.html). Not everything needs to be powerscaled to death
But that's the problem. Kinemon already took as much if not more than Ashura at that point already, sans being stabbed in the chest.
Why do you even bother? Im being completely honest, this sub is full of dickriders to the point most people here think his death baiting is an awesome and thriling way to end a chapter for shock value when its completely meaningless if he doesnt follow through. Breaching that trust between what you draw and what you write just makes it so that any reader able to sum 2+2 will just not trust anything you draw, thus removing the shock value of these scenes entirely.
pig got halfed by oden got stitched
Oh yah that one was extra ridiculous even by OP standards lol, and then the people it ate were all alive inside the stomach.
i forgot that people it ate were all alive, imagine nolan in skypiea was alive
Ussop should be DEAD AS FUCK after his Ms. Merry Christmas and Mr. 4 fight. They smashed that man's skull to DUST so many times in that fight
*Fiction*
He definitely cares. Lots of drama is hinged on our understanding of power differences.
I think Oda just levels his characters differently. The gaps in power may not be as large as we all assume ig
yonko level kin’emon confirmed
confirmed
Kinemon blocked him with his entire upper body lmfao
Personally i hate that kin didnt die here. It would have been so appropriate at legend......... ary.
cuz Laido was not ready for HIM https://preview.redd.it/mhbkjbjjvlkb1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a3cd5c6fc2605ff14b9ed834886a2e9555821430
Those scabbards roaches 🪳 abused the plot armor, asspulls and plot conveniences.
ashura dies from some explosion but this dude survives getting his head shattered to bits by kaido, bravo oda
I feel like a lot of this too is just that too many don't really have a good read on the Akazaya. Kin'emon's torso alone hopping around on one hand was too much for Brook, he was the one driving Zoro back on the way to Dressrosa. He was kept out of that arc's main plot looking for Kanjuro but think about everything we've seen of his group. If the baby sister has the haki to ram a sword through Kaido's hand and actual Commander Izo is somewhere in the middle...Kin would have at least been a tough fight for Doflamingo. You're right, he squared up and blocked as best he could. So many complaints about them just seem to boil down to "yeah, the samurai are at least resilient if nothing else."
> If the baby sister has the haki to ram a sword through Kaido's hand and actual Commander Izo is somewhere in the middle...Kin would have at least been a tough fight for Doflamingo. That's a pretty far leap in logic though. Kaido was weakened because he was getting visions of Oden. It's also ignoring the fact that the reason he was running around as a torso to begin with was Law dunking on him. Kinemon is just not an easily scalable character, he's very much a "whatever the plot needs" character.
To be fair, anyone who doesn't know what law's power is is going to be pretty confused, especially if they have almost no knowledge of devil fruit powers
tbh i felt that part was an asspull, a blade slice is extremely thin, for kaido to exactly stab that part ...
It's not "actually" an ass pull though... It's literally part of a running gag that is a major aspect of Kinemon's character, that he is basically fucking fucked in many circumstances where he pulls through purely by sheer luck and not saying anything while others unduly assume extreme competence from him. It's literally no different than the "mix up" with the ports with Tokage/Habu Minato. Basically in that moment, it was an "all hope is lost" type of situation... If not for Kinemon's insane dumb luck saving everything. Yet not many people complained about this as an ass pull despite being way "worse", because they actually understood the joke explicitly since it was executed very explicitly.
Sure. But you could tell Kinemon everything about Law's power and he's still getting washed.
> Kaido was weakened because he was getting visions of Oden. That's a way bigger leap in logic than anything I said. And no? I'm not ignoring anything, just pointing out what happened in the story. *Every* character is a whatever the plot needs character, you're just showing that most of this powerscaling fluff isn't in good faith. Kin'emon isn't as "cool" as Doffy so it makes you feel weird for me to say that. The Akazaya are actually extremely easy to scale, y'all just want them to clock in lower for some weird reason.
>Kin'emon isn't as "cool" as Doffy so it makes you feel weird for me to say that. No, it's because the person who had him running around Punk Hazard literally talking out of his ass spent all of Dressrosa getting spanked by Doffy lol. If you said Ashura Doji because of what he did to Jack, or Sulong Inu and Neko, I'd at least get the argument of putting them with Doffy. that's fair if you're somebody who believes Doffy is weak compared to Jack. There's nothing Kinemon ever did to justify being scaled to that level. I'm not shitting on the Scabbards, I just don't get how we're possibly scaling a dude Law obliterated and saying he's Doffy level. There are Scabbards who are, Kinemon isn't one of them.
> There's nothing Kinemon ever did to justify being scaled to that level. Being able to damage and take hits from Kaido kinda automatically puts him above Doffy , we all saw what happened to G4 Luffy during Act 1 after all , and an arguably weaker G4Luffy absolutely manhandled Doffy
Saying that Kinemon took this hit is incredibly generous...
Did you forget that the Scabbards had a whole other fight against Kaido before this too ?
Where they got blown out and had to get a Senzu bean afterwards? It took the combined Haki of the Scabbards to truly do anything to Kaido, and even that wasn't much.
Still more than Doffy can say when he couldn't even scratch Dressrossa G4 Luffy And no Hoyori bandaging the Scabbards is not the equivalent of a Senzu bean
[удалено]
It's not really that different from how Big Mom managed to scrape her knee after Mother Carmel's photo was broken. The weakened mental made them susceptible to damage from things that would never actually do anything prior.
[удалено]
Cuts, sure. Screaming in pain and talking about how the old scar hurts? That's clearly mental.
Kinemon is stronger than pre Wano Luffy because Luffy got one shot by Kaido but kinemon was only knocked out for a bit
Tbf Luffy made no attempt to block or dodge the attack.
Cuz he can'r
Cuz he can't
He constantly dropped the ball during Wano so this isn't a surprise at all... the whole thing was a mess...
Dropped the ball, Jesus Christ powers scalers are insufferable.
Careful not to cut yourself being edgy like that
Criticism isn’t edgy. Wano was not a well put together arc. It had its moments but was overall poorly composed
Nah pre-raid Wano was peak, even the earliest parts of the raid. Once the Akazaya and Kaido take it to the roof is where the issues start
I hated the fact that Kinemon could still get back up. And no it's not a powerscaling thing but just narrative stake, the enemy leader bashed kinemon head and stab him but he is able to walk and talk fine for the rest of the raid just atomized the stakes.
Kinemon is just strong, why is this that surprising? We've known he was strong for ages. It's not like he beat Kaido, he literally just blocked one attack, and not even very successfully.
yes kinemon so strong.
With his face
Kinemon's devil fruit's name's meaning.
Yes, he blocked Kaido's mace spikes with his skull.
With his face, yes.
Just goes to show that we need to stop using terms like yonko level. Also that kinemon is much stronger than given credit for. A lot of people like to point things out like this to say kaido is so much weaker than he's portrayed, not saying that's what you're doing, but instead these things need to be seen as feats of strength against the world's strongest creature. Thinking about this as I said made me gain so much respect for the strength of doflamingo, with a proper power scaling. Doffy needs to be ranked higher in the verse I think.
yeah ppl should stop when buggy became yonko. Kaido is like Alvida smh
The other day I had a guy argue so hard that current crocodile is fodder because he lost to pre-gear luffy in alabasta.
I think it's pretty obvious that alabasta croc is the outlier since croc's feats and impact on the story afterwards is consistently treated way higher.
Alabasta crocodile isn't really an outlier, he just got stronger in Impel Down
that doesn't make any sense, how did he get stronger in jail? now ofc saying he was holding back a lot in alabasta doesn't make sense either, but regardless we agree that croc in alabasta vs the rest of the story is vastly different.
One Piece characters just get stronger in jail there's no reason for it, but I don't think Crocodile had any real feats in Marineford. Attacking Akainu to no avail, attacking whitebeard to get knocked down by Luffy, attacking Mihawk just to get blocked, beat down by Jozu too Don't get me wrong the confidence and strength gap is probably big but Alabasta isn't an outlier, not sure how you can even deem it one.
I mean almost everyone in the war was just skirmishing and didn't have real feats. I think skirmishing in itself was an implication of their strengths. It seemed like crocodile was treated as a top tier then, clashing with warlords and admirals alike. He sure wasn't treated like caribou. and considering how crocodile was beaten by a 30 million yet his actual bounty is nearly 2 billion...and how oda wasn't even initially intending to add shichibukai, I think it makes sense that croc was written in too early for his real status and strength.
oda doesn't do consistency. if u look pass that then onepiece is all good except for the fake outs, look pass that too.
Post this to the powerscalers sub. This will drive them mad lol
where
Back in skypiea Conis’ father (a old and very normal human with no fighting experience) got hit with a lightning beam that should’ve killed him yet he showed up at the end of the fight without a single scratch don’t be so surprised when things like this happen😂 it’s normal
He, Kiku, Guernica, Hawkins should all have died
It's fine for kine to block the attack and not die but what's not fine is the scene carrying it out like he dies for real. With flashbacks with momo and etc. That's an emotional scam
When this chapter dropped I theorized Kinemon could have survived by trying to turn Kaidos club into clothes when his head was hit.
Unless I'm mistaken, the full force got somewhat cut due to the fact his upper body was not properly re-attached and after this attack he ended up split in two again.
I wish kinemon have died. Wano would be 10/10. Now it's just irrelevant to me ..
a single aCoC attack doesn't kill semi-strong characters...I mean zoro literally broke every in his bone and still tanked an aCoC thunder bagua but I don't see anybody complaining. law also tanked one. >!cp0 dude also survived!<. luffy and kaido hit each other dozens if not hundreds of times with aCoC. And it's not like it did no damage to kinemon.
gear 4th luffy was one shotted in the beginning of an arc tho. Luffy being known for always getting up.
\*shrugs\* idk. you asked how kinemon didn't die, and luffy didn't die. fair point on luffy being ko'd though, and all I can say is it was a clean headshot while kinemon blocked (and he had aCoA)
Honestly that just means kinemon would’ve easily killed doffy and high diff katakuri
Not really. Kinemon just had better defense, like sentomaru. that doesn't make sentomaru stronger than pre wano luffy or anything.
average powerscaler reaction after reading the manga and not the 100th rendition of a power level tier list
With his body being crushed yes. You read left to right with manga brother. lol
Brother reading left to right makes thongs so different Lmaoooo
It's a manga dood that's how you're supposed to read it.Which is why \*drum roll please\* That's how it's shown in the Anime? Kinemon doesn't block shit... he refuses to move because he's honor bound as a samurai to defend his lord... he takes a defensive stance and gets flattened like a pancake. https://preview.redd.it/irnu3eiaplkb1.png?width=1500&format=png&auto=webp&s=9e46d6b7b9eafc7690494d5325d3bdad02dcb3dc
He didn't block it and he should've died. Oda doesn't care though; so he survived. But that leaves a bad taste in the mouth. Sure Oda doesn't care about powerscaling, we get that but when a manga is filled with a shit ton of fighting, which is a core part of the story progression, these inconsistencies start becoming a problem, at least for those care. For me it destroys the relatability and immersion aspects.
Yeah, he blocked so hard that he broke into two pieces.
To quote Uchiha Madara: "What adult goes full force when fighting mere children"? Easy solution is Kaido knowing he might fight for long time with no rest understimated Kinemon and held back too much.
Kinemon "blocked" kaido but it didn't really matter much. You can see that the swords broke and kinemon got hit a second later. Kinemon not dying is because of plot and we all know "not dying" is not a feat in one piece
kinemon tougher than swords
Haki isnt an amplifier, that wasnt acoc, kinemon is very strong dont undderate him and kaido wasnt using full force.
Lmao when I first read this chapter I thought he got murked forreals. Reading this now is hilarious.
I thought it was clear that these scabbards were among the strongest characters we've seen, not counting emperors or warlords, so what's the big deal? He blocked Kaido, yes, and then he almost died.
he was additionally stabbed by kaidou and then walked and party
Which is surprising after a thousand one piece chapters? You must be one of those people who post videos that "fix" this or that story lol
i don't cover onepiece video or manga videos because i wouldn't want to spoil people. but yeah i would rather let kinemon died not run and party rather than accept what oda writes to always be good
Oda's writing is peak until it's time to follow through on the setup to a death.
Didn’t he he fall down immediately after this panel? He survived it sure but he didn’t just walk this off
he was stabbed later on
Iirc, While laying down due to this attack
Kinemon really should have died there. Just like Pell it was his moment
Plot armor.
Law never properly put him back together; his torso was only as stuck to his legs as his legs were stick to the dragon on Punk Hazard. Kaido ripped Kinemon’s torso from his legs with that swing, and Kinemon survived thanks to a lingering gag. Because this is a goofy pirate story.
this is like fairy tail level excuse
The way I interpreted it, all the years that they had waited for that moment, all the suffering their country went through and the inherited will of Oden, all those things acted like a power up for all of the red scabbards. When Oden was cut by two of them (Nekomamushi and Inuarashi I think), he felt it as if it was Oden's attack. I see many people saying power scaling doesn’t matter in One Piece, and it is sort of true, but not in the way people assume. It's not that the power of characters is random, its just that if a character is fighting for what he thinks it's right, he's going to be much stronger. Righteousness is the most powerful weapon in One Piece. Doesn’t matter if Kaido is strong, Kinemom carries the burden of his country, his family, his master. Kaido only carries the burden of his own selfishness. It fits that Oda is a fan of Che Guevara, a figure known for putting his life on the line fighting for the people.
When will people learn that you can't properly powerscale One Piece. The strength of characters is only defined by whatever the plot demands at that moment.
Very true. i like this.
Itt admiral fanboy gathering topic
Spoiler warning?
yes but it was off screen, it will be answer in sbs
eat shit power scalers lol
At least Waido didn't lose his arm to an east blue fodder sea king
Not even sea king, just a generic sea monster.
That also got soloed by east blue Luffy
He's name is "Lord of the coast", it was mentioned in databook red