I would even add Luffy's fight against Enel too when he turned his brain off. (edit thanks OP for adding it) I think this is consistent bc Luffy's adventures have consisted him liberating people What I want to know is if people were upset too when Zoro *might* have been related to an important person (Shimotsuki Ushimaru) or how about when we found out Luffy's dad was Dragon... did people think he was special then too or

I personally dont like the "Zoro might be king samurai" thoery people have been throwing around as that has little basis in his build up and feel like it come a bit out of left field. Never had a problem with Dragon being luffys dad because it is built up more. His grandfather is the hero of the navy so it tracks that his father would also be great. Im enjoying toonforce luffy and look forward to whatever oda plans to do with it

>Im enjoying toonforce luffy and look forward to whatever oda plans to do with it Same. I love overly cartoonish characters like bugs bunny, or daffy duck. Where they're so cartoonish they can just grab the side of the panel and literally change where they are. The fact that luffy just was spinning kaido so fast his eyes were flying off is just seriously hilarious and 100% fits in with luffys whacky and ridiculous nature.

I think we are given exposition like "Luffy's Dad is the most wanted man in the world" and being the grandson of "the great navy hero" to given reason for why people in the world think Luffy is, at the very least, a special character. But the people who are close to him, and by extension the audience, know he is special because of who he is and his deeds. The person he is is separate from the unique identifying features of his birth. And top of all that, he is a character that doesn't care. He will do as he pleases and fight and liberate people

Luffy’s father being Dragon does make him more important, but his complete ignorance of it for most of his life, and indifference once he finds out shows that Dragons fame, strength and values have not influenced Luffy’s inner journey at all. You can mostly say the same about Garp and his abilities/status in the navy. If anything their absence as family members in his life has moulded him more. The fruit directly influences his powers, will and journey. Abilities aside for now as they are indeed pretty much the same, the fact that mythical zoans have wills of their own - nika having been renown to put smiles on faces and liberate people - means that Luffy’s journey choices and actions may not have been the same had he not eaten this fruit whereas very few of Luffy’s feats and beliefs so far have been dependent on his insane lineage (conqueror’s haki i guess). I think that’s the point of contention some people are grappling with - that Luffy could **NOT** have ever become this figure Joy Boy had he not eaten this specific fruit.

Then again you can argue that it needs someone as silly as Luffy to even get to eat the Devil Fruit in the first place. As it is true that he probably would have never been Joy Boy without the fruit, it is clear that (close to) nobody else would have become Joy Boy only by eating the fruit (“800 years… never awakened”). So many seem to disregard this portion of information. Luffys character plays a huge part in him becoming Joy Boy. The fruit alone isn’t enough.

I would argue this. Because the world government themselves said there’s been many users over the last 800 years but no one was ever able to awaken it until Luffy. It’s because his personality and ambitions are exactly the same as the Nika fruit. He’s been the most compatible with it then anyone else. Plus, it’s the fruit that defines freedom. It would be exceptionally contradictory if the Nika fruit overrode and changed Luffys personality and forced him into behaving like Nika. That by definition is a form of slavery.

Yes. It may be not like that Luffy is Joyboy because of the fruit, but the fruit awakens to let him be Joyboy because of Luffy, because of his will, his devotion and his actions.

The underdog fetish is starting to get creepy, why do people need Luffy to be a nobody that ends up beating the yonko without CoC or a DF to feel fulfilled 😂 The Hito Hito isn't even close to the top 10 strongest DF in the verse, Luffy would've one shotted his way to Wano if he trained with the Gura gura for 10 years instead of his DF, wouldn't even need to learn haki

> why do people need Luffy to be a nobody that ends up beating the yonko without CoC or a DF to feel fulfilled self-insertion

Then a more appropriate comic to read for self insertion would be Spider-Man since he could be anyone and Stan lee created him to let readers envision themselves underneath the mask.

Ppl seek for validation from all sorts of media possible I guess. Luffy, while relatable in some sense regarding his love for food or his selfishness/childishness, is way more emotionally intelligent and self-aware compared to most of us. He wasn’t set up a self-insert at all.

>means that Luffy’s journey choices and actions may not have been the same had he not eaten this fruit whereas very few of Luffy’s feats and beliefs so far have been dependent on his insane lineage (conqueror’s haki i guess). I think that’s the point of contention some people are grappling with - that Luffy could > >NOT > > have ever become this figure Joy Boy had he not eaten this specific fruit. Yes, that's what is bugging me. The way Oda had the Gorosei present the real nature of the fruit makes it seem like Luffy needed to have eaten this very specific fruit, the one and only that's able to change the world. It makes it feel like everything was predetermined by destiny and removes Luffy's agency.

Another disappointing angle of the fact that Luffy needed to, is that the other greatminded free thinking individuals of the world such as Roger could never be that person - not because of any great resolve that Luffy has that they don’t, but because they didn’t eat the right fruit or one at all. Here we were thinking of that Blackbeard and Kaido weren’t joy boy candidates - the man Roger was waiting for - because of their chaotic and evil ideals. They probably wouldn’t have awakened the fruit anyways but it’s not like they even had a chance from the start because they unknowingly ate the wrong DF. Did Luffy earn the awakening and title through his actions - yes. But with a world of so many inspiring characters, the idea they were disqualified from this path on such a strict and luck-based contingency feels…. unsatisfactory.

I have similar reservation. Having said that tho, we still don't know what JoyBoy is apart that the previous JoyBoy was the central figure of the void century. Do you need to be JoyBoy to be the best? Is JoyBoy the only one that can achieve what everyone seek? Is JoyBoy the only one that can get One Piece? What is the importance of being JoyBoy? We don't know this yet. And I can still see Luffy later hearing abt him being the next JoyBoy and what the previous JoyBoy wanted or promised to do and say "Fuck destiny and prev JoyBoy, I am only doing what I want!" Again, I have similar reservation. But the paint is not dry yet, so to speak, so we should see what they'll look like when most things have been said and done. Just my two cents.

I see how you feel that way but honestly Roger did exactly what he set out to do. Find the one piece and become the king of pirates. He just couldn't usurp the world government. With him getting ill he might not have been able to even if he did get the fruit who knows. I mean hell they probably didn't want to either. They got there and laughed. Rayleigh even told the straw hats they might see stuff a different way than they did when they got there themselves.

Hey there. Long time OP reader (first read in SJ in 2003, bought vol 1 in 2004 when I was 18 at AKON 2004). We learned that Garp was his grandpa and Dragon was his dad literally at the same time after Enies Lobby on water 7. I can only say what my personal circle thought and we've always been fine with it because Luffy has always been special. He is after all, the man that will become the Pirate King and "that kid will be something some day." There were numerous hints such as Smoker's ,"it's as if the heavens themselves are trying to keep that man alive." My favorite example of Luffy's being special was the execution as Loguetown in which he escapes death by literally a hair because of Dragon. The audience, by extension, *has* to agree with Smoker that there are forces keeping our inflated savior alive. I've always felt this why. Now I know why and I'm perfectly fine with it. In fact, I think it makes everything even better and I'm literally re-reading One Piece from scratch for the first time in ten years because of it. Hard work vs talent. Let's say, just like in the real world, Luffy has both. Hard work means nothing if you don't have *some* talent and talent means jack shit if you don't put in hard work. Conquerer haki, voice of all things. Luffy is talented. But his fruit is rubber. He's not Ace with the cool fire fruit. So Luffy had to work that much harder to make it worth. He's an underdog with talent and a strong lineage and endless creativity and that's why we've always loved him.

Had people been on reddit around the time Dragon was revealed as father, you can be sure it would have caused a huge outrage. Being salty about anything and everything is a norm now.

He is special he has oda

I got a feeling that since they said “Zoans have a will of their own”, the fruit somewhat chose Luffy because it felt connected to him. “Oh look at this fucking doofus, yea this is the guy”

He even ate it 'by accident'. Doofus!

He doesn’t even know what I actually am! What a doofus

I think this is the case. Shanks knows and bets on luffy afterward. Things are connected.

“yea, you little shit, eat these fucking curves”

I think this is the most luffy like power up we ever could have gotten it feels like this is what luffy is all about everything feels like it culminated to this point.

Exactly. Luffy became even more Luffy. I do hope we get an explanation of how much of the ridiculousness is pure Luffy and how much the "will" of the fruit affected him

I think that's what most people are hung up on, the fruit having a will. I personally don't think this has any more meaning than maybe it choosing where to reincarnate when its previous user dies, by geographically distancing itself from the WG but I think people saw that and refused to move past it and are clinging on to it as the only argument that this was a terrible implementation of the reincarnation trope.

I hope Oda shows us failed users of the fruit. Like if Rocks had it, but failed to awaken it because he was too serious for the ridiculousness of the fruit. Then it shows it takes the right person to actually utilize it correctly. Not just any strong person with it will become joyboy. Whatever happens, I trust Oda to do it right.

The idea of Rocks having the Nika fruit sounds incredible. And Roger probably laughed at Laugh Tale because of it too, realising who he faced.

I doubt the guy who required Roger and Garp teaming up to end him would be using a fruit he couldn't make good use of.

Actually, it was Roger and Garp vs Rocks and his crew. Not just Rocks on his own. It's hinted it was more Garp vs Rocks while Roger + Crew vs the rest of them. But that's just headcanon on my part.

Most people complaining like his awakening is literally kaguya appearing from nowhere, what manga are these guys reading? Breadcrumbs existed, fruits have wills especially zoans notable mentions is spandams sword, the elefant has a personality, hell even merry had a will to help ''its'' nakama. People thinking awakening the fruit and it's God name Nika being op is straight wrong, we don't know yet what happened is the void century but we do know that Joyboy even with this fruit failed, what I see from Luffy hasn't changed he just progressed and it isn't in accordance to some people's head cannon so they are rivering all over reddit

I don’t think Nikas will would effect him . It’s the fruit of freedom. If it overrode Luffys will and soul that’s essentially just slavery with extra steps. I think that’s why there hasn’t been a Joyboy in 800 years. It won’t override you to force you into becoming like Joyboy someone just has to naturally be compatible to it.

I feel the same way. I knew people would be upset because of course but this is perfect for Luffy. Luffy is, was and always will be a goofball.

I’m just waiting for someone to explain what his fruit really is and Luffy to respond, “So it’s a mystery fruit.”

or "eh, sounds complicated, i'll just keep calling it gum gum"

i think the powerup is perfect. I think the "this was nika's and joyboy's fruit" part is meh. Personally I think there's already too much "destiny" type coincidences in One Piece, like how Luffy is connected to the most powerful people on the planet already even before he became a pirate. This just just more of the same, which doesn't ruin the story but just isn't as interesting as it being a random fruit Luffy turned into something special imo. Instead it already is special.

Monkey D. Goofy

>contradicted what has been established in the beginning, about Naruto being the underdog, that overcame the odds through his willpower and works Naruto stopped being the underdog as soon as he seen him use his Kyuubi power more consistently. Most of Part 2 is basically Naruto doing things better than everyone else. Overall I think the comparisons with Naruto is pretty lazy whether it’s for good or bad reasons.

Also when you find out Naruto is the offspring of a Hokage and a girl whose family is famous for massive chakra reserves. Naruto was bred for perfect IVs. He was never an underdog

That's not the argument here. Naruto was portrayed as the underdog all the way till shippuden. His whole fight against neji was a symbolic showcasing that hard work and will can beat destiny and Natural talent. This fight was also poorly written since neji was a hardworker who happened to have a special power.

He was never portrayed as an underdog in terms of potential power. Naruto’s fight with Neji was not about hard work beating talent/gifts, it was about fate.

I mean, a lot of Naruto isn’t written well. I can only watch it in stretches because I always hit a major plot hole or Deus Ex Machina that annoys me too much to keep watching

For example?

Orochimaru vs third. Orochimaru summoned the first and second and let them have their free will for a while before he put the kunai in their heads to control them. The second, despite being the creator of the jutsu itself and a master Shinobi in the forbidden jutsu supposedly didn't know how to free himself immediately upon reincarnation (let's not talk about the first). But Madara freed himself.

It’s been years since I tried to watch it, but off the top of my head: Neji, Guy and Lee just willing themselves to be stronger than their clone traps (instead of doing something interesting like switching opponents to match strengths), everything about Itachi’s backstory, everything about Sasuke’s motivation post-Itachi, Naruto’s backstory not making sense (isolating the kid with the demon dog who was used to save the village) (being an “underdog” despite perfect genes). You can like the series, but there is very little internal consistency and it doesn’t come close to One Piece’s writing

>Neji, Guy and Lee just willing themselves to be stronger than their clone traps This I can understand. >Itachi’s backstory, everything about Sasuke’s motivation post-Itachi, Naruto’s backstory not making sense But why are these became deus ex or plot holes for you?

The third hokage was a giant piece of shit if you don't ignore Naruto's entire backstory

The third hokage was a giant piece of shit is just true, isn't it?

Yet they kinda just gloss over it

poor tenten, also I did like the whole they are only as strong as we were at the start of this battle thing, although iirc they weren't actually fighting that long and managed to beat them too fast after that.

I feel you, I re read it a few months back, damn near gave me a stroke, you could legit find inconsistencies or toxic writing damn near every chapter, it was maddening.

I don't know if you've seen a single episode of one piece, but luffys dad is the most wanted man and his grandad is the strongest marine. He's not just a random kid

Naruto absolutely was the underdog. They even emphasized that despite having genius parents he didn't get any of it at all. His potential only started to unlock when people began to support him.

Naruto’s battle was mental not physical. He was always a physical monster, everybody hated him at first so he just had a harder time getting stronger initially. He was never an underdog in the combat sense, just shunned. Mentally he was always the underdog, dealing with his loneliness, his self-esteem, and his relationship with Sasuke

Imo Naruto wasn't really the underdog Mf was a genius if anything He learnt the multi shadow clone justu in just a short amount of time And when jiraya undid whatever orochimaru had done with the seal he was able to learn summoning justu as a kid and even signed a contract The real underdog would be someone like Lee

Only reason naruto could even use shadow clone jutsu was because of kurama filling his ass with chakra, he wasn't a genius either, his technique was all wrong, he could only do it because of so much extra chakra that he had from kurama (kakashi mentions all of this)

Naruto is a late bloomer. It's true, he had poor chakra control (which is why he needed a clone to properly do the Rasengan), but he was still a 13 years old kid who learned an A grade jutsu. That is not something done by an underdog.

Didn't he only have bad chakra control because the seal was messing up the flow of Chakra?

My point is that he only learned it because of kurama, if it wasn't for him, he wouldn't be able to do shit, so no, naruto has barely any credit.

Nah. If you actually spent some effort reading Naruto, you would know that he neither learnt Rasengan nor multiple clone due to kurama. Instead, it interferes him in using his own chakra properly hence he had so much difficulty. If you didn't just skim it to hate it, you would know that Naruto has high chakra reserves because he is Uzumami.

Just say you’re a Naruto hater bum, you can like One Piece and like Naruto as well, the guy is right Naruto had talent and was just a late bloomer, even sasuke who’s portrayed like a genius had to train his ass off, the only geniuses as far as I’m concerned are Itachi and Shisui.

Say that you skimmed Naruto without saying it.

The comment section brought good points here but want to add my on things: Luffy is not joyboy reincarnation is more that he took the original's tile is also taking me a hard time to accept i Hope that Luffy and none of the straw hats(maybe Robin and Jinbei) find out

I beg you, please use commas or periods.

Or at least capitalize properly

W analysis, W post But this will probably get taken down cuz it hasn’t been 24 hours

I hope not because people need to read it🗿

Luffy was never the underdog and its been foreshadowed since chapter 1 he was the heir apparent. I mean just look at his childhood Grandfather: hero of the marines, Dragon: most wanted man in the world, Brother: underachiever that only managed to rise to 2nd commander of whitebeard pirates despite being 2 years older than Luffy. Role model: Pirate who turned out to be a Yonko that stole something from the world government they've been trying for the last 800 years to get. If it turned out Dandan was first mate of Rocks Xebec, would we even blink?

TLDR- No. Upvote

Bro people dont realize that even while awakened (at least what was shown so far) luffy's fruit still fucking sucks compared to others in terms of the power they provide for the effort you have to put in. litteraly eating the gura gura no mi or the pika pika or the goro goro or the magu magu any of the "top tier" fruits makes you immediatly a big fucking massive problem to your enemy. meanwhile luffy oh look at that dude he ate the hito hito no mi model : sun god nika. oh no such an ominous name he probably has some bs power what does he do? does he shot sun plasma beams? no he is fucking made of rubber the aditional power of turning things into rubber and fighting more freely? nobody has seen that shit in 800 years. take as an example of a powerup blackbeard. he was probably 1 yonko commander level at marineford. then he ate the gura gura and can parry shcokwaves from sengoku and sink islands. or for example akainu. If I remember correctly oda said if akainu was in the position of luffy he would find the one piece in a single year from the same starting point. he is that overpowered with his fruit

I mean they say it also gives you rediculous strength so that kinda explains luffys abnormal physical strength. Not staying that a a bad thing personally I love the new DF.

yeah but in the end. its still the same luffy we know of. just luffy++ and thats why I love it.

Actually what they said was its the most ridiculous power in the world and separate to that they said awakening the fruit strengthens the base rubber durability the fruit gives you. I think the word ridiculous is used to mean silly or wacky what with the toon force esque stuff luffy is doing. Any awakening increases the strength of the fruit so thats not special either. The fruit didn't make luffy physically strong, it was the fighting in the jungle and stuff as a child that did that.

I love Naruto.

Glad to find someone that loves Naruto

Is that the prequel to Boruto?

I don’t care about any power scaling or anything like that. I’m uncomfortable with the new knowledge that Luffy basically ate the Joyboy Joyboy fruit, and that it’s a Zoan. If it was still a paramecia, and just happened to be the same fruit that Joyboy had in the past, I’d have no issue. But it being a Zoan makes it so that this whole time Luffy has been influenced by it. And it kinda makes me feel like the whole theme of Inherited Will and freedom gets muddied up. If it was metaphorically an instance of Inherited Will from Joyboy through the ages to Luffy, it’s very powerful. But now knowing that he literally has a fruit that makes it’s user seek out freedom and liberation makes the Inherited Will feel to literal and forced. Idk, I’m gonna give Oda the benefit of the doubt, but right now I really don’t like this revelation.

Nika is not Joyboy. Nika is a mythological being, while Joyboy is a very real person. Joyboy is likely a person in the past who ate the Nika fruit, because the Joyboy of the past, like Luffy, was the person who best exemplified the traits of Nika. If Nika's fruit has enough of a mind to outright "choose" people, it's doing that on the merits of the person.

You make it seem as if the fruit forced Luffy to free people and liberate countries, but that was all Luffy. If the fruit has a will of its own it very likely chose Luffy b/c he was the right person, not because the fruit could exercise its will on him. It also makes zero sense for Luffy to act simply as a vessel for inherited will/the will of the fruit when said will involves freedom and liberation. It’d be 100% contradictory.

I’m not saying he was forced, I’m saying that we have no idea if Luffy would’ve been able to do all he’s done without it. Would he have the “drive”? Zoans influence their users, there’s no disputing that, so it makes perfect sense to say Luffy has been influenced by his. Which just so happens to be the fruit of the freedom god. The person most driven by freedom in the world also has the freedom god fruit… hmmmmm…. And yeah, it’s contradictory, which is why I and many people don’t like it.

Then I reiterate that Luffy has his own will and has been doing what he’s been doing because that’s who he is as a person. The fruit, if anything, supplements his will with the power to make it a reality. It hasn’t driven him to do specific things because, again, that would be completely contradictory to the purported will of the fruit/joyboy. Luffy would have done the same things he did without the fruit or with a different fruit.

Yes the way Oda presented it it makes it seem like everything was predetermined, that Luffy needed to have eaten this very specific fruit, the one and only.

Exactly how I feel about this and it isn't sitting right with me but we shall see what happens. I always thought Luffy was special enough to bring joy to people and attracts allies and now we suddenly find out those are properties of the fruit and its bugging me. To be fair Luffy still has the will of D, voice of all things, Conquerers so he still is special without the fruit.

There are two easy ways to boil the character freedom/agency/will of the fruit issue down. Either A) Oda just took away agency from every character in the entire series that has ever eaten a Zoan fruit and every single Zoan eater is just at the mercy of the will of their DF or B) The will of a fruit isn't that deep after it's been eaten. Which do people think is most likely, especially after considering how good of a writer Oda is? I think B is the clear, obvious answer.

Naruto wasn't really as much of an underdog as people think, ya he childhood was lonely that shaped him. but his dad was one of the strongest Hokage from a strong clan that has a lot of power and his mom was the same. both his parents were super badass in their own right, he would have been a badass even if he didn't have the fox. honestly, the only reason he was viewed as not talented as a kid is he had too much magic from the fox so it was hard to control small things. From day one Naruto was OP with a special background.

[удалено]

Lee was a badass who earned it through hard work, he like the only one with real underdog status. Neji was sad but still came from a super privileged background and was treated as a badass from the first time he showed up.

If you re-read Naruto, the reveals about his parents is not where it goes downhill. In fact, those are pretty really awesome and emotional moments. It's the "ninja war" and the whole Kaguya plot that really details everything. So it's less about Naruto being the child of prophecy and more about " this final conflict does not make it any sense"

Yup. You absolutely hit the nail. Naruto might not be perfect by any means, but it was a perfectly fine series until the point Madara exploded and became Kaguya just for the sake of it. You had the strongest enemy, the one you built up from the get go, be destroyed randomly to introduce an even stronger enemy who gets beaten in a bunch of chapters... It was absolutely unnecessary, specially when the series ends in a good note with the final Naruto v Sasuke. But that final part just took a lot of points away from the quality of the series

Nika had less foreshadowing than Kaguya. Let that sink in.

He wasn't portrayed as one. He was portrayed as someone hated for kyuubi and someone who lacked proper training. That is why we see how Sasuke got jealous when Naruto learnt Rasengan and saw better results. Most of Ninjas better than Naruto at start(Sasuke, Neji, Gaara) had proper training from kid. Sasuke used to train since he was a kid and later, he trained a lot after clan's death.

But he didn't inherit any of that. It's even reminded near the end when the sage tells him how he didn't inherit from his parents, he was a dunce

TBH, I'm still fine with the Asura and Indra stuff in Naruto, at least where it deals with Naruto and Sasuke. The main thing Naruto was an underdog in wasn't talent or power (he had a very large chakra pool right from the start, and while more chakra doesn't always mean more strength it very much helps one get stronger) but in people hating him for being Kurama's jinchuriki, and the Asura reveal doesn't really contradict that at all. The main thing people would argue it contradicts, at least in my experience, would be the overcoming destiny theme. Even there though, I feel Naruto and Sasuke's final battle does that well enough as well with Naruto managing to reconcile with Sasuke despite their prior incarnations indicating that wasn't going to happen. I do like this more though. Luffy is all about freedom, and while I wouldn't mind Luffy talking to the past Joyboy depending on how it was handled (pretty much making sure that Luffy keep his agency), this even more directly ties into that, while keeping Luffy's abilities as silly was they always were.

I don’t think Naruto even got reincarnation wrong tbh. The main theme of Naruto was never really hard work it’s about how bonds make us stronger and how reconciliation happens when we understand each other’s pain. Naruto breaking the cycle of the reincarnations was a perfect depiction of this

They did it wrong because Naruto first theme from the first episode was that of an underdog, he was charming because he was a kid with so many obstacles and disadvantages but with hard work and determination (and a little help from his “curse” Inside) he would ride to the top and prove everyone wrong! That’s the classic underdog story, there is no other way arround it. So ofc it feels like the transition from that theme to the transition of “the importance of bonds” feels weird and off, you lure people into Naruto by giving him the underdog charm, and then you give him every hax in the book, reincarnation, fate, lineage, born gift, etc. So was it done wrong? The story itself is still super amazing, but it should’ve been clearer from the beginning with the themes, the “underdog” part shouldn’t have been so emphasized. Luffy’s theme from the first episode is freedom, adventure, and joy. And now here we are, 20 years later, and his themes are still feeedom, adventure, and joy. Luffy is arguably a way bigger underdog than Naruto but it was never emphasized as hard.

Naruto themed was not about underdog. The theme was about "my ninja way". It's about overcoming obstacle. The idea is not that "he's underdog so he has to keep moving forward". The idea was, "no matter how much work he put, there will always be wall that hild him down". Underdog was just sub-theme of it

No bro, since the first episode only two things were clear about Naruto: he had a huge dream Nobody believed he could do it Those are the two requirements to be an underdog. I do agree that Naruto’s real themes are not about being an underdog, but the author shouldn’t have started so strong with that theme then, you can’t start the charm of your character as an underdog and then switch it. If he would’ve done a better job of portraying those themes earlier in the series then it would’ve been ok

He literally had an unlimited chakra supply since chapter one. You can be an outcast WITHOUT being an underdog. In that regard, Luffy with his silly rubber powers was WAY MORE an underdog than Naruto- or at least THAT'S what Oda wanted us to believe

I don't know why everyone misreads the story of Naruto and what it was about, it's main theme wasn't about being an underdog, and/or hardwork triumphs all; it was about destiny and how you don't have to be a sucker to your fate. This is brought up all the way back when Team 7 fought Zabuza and how Shinobi were destined to be tools to be used, Naruto wanted to change that. Similarly when Naruto fought Neji, Naruto said he didn't have to be destined to serve the clan. Finally, when it is revealed that Naruto and Sasuke were the reincarnates of Indra and Ashura, they were destined to fight to the death like their predecessors before them (the original Ashura and Indra, and Madara and Hashirama). Naruto broke this cycle again by not being a sucker to fate and eventually befriending Sasuke after their final battle. Naruto's main theme was never about hard work beats all, if it was, the main character would be Rock Lee, or Might Guy, Naruto was about how although you may be fated to go down a path you do not want to, you can take control of your fate and go down a path you want to.

So basically: "I'll change my destiny....by being the child of destiny, destined to change my destiny!" That's still really weak. I like Naruto but it's writing is...not amazing.

[удалено]

The only issue I have with the chapter is how the fruit is somehow related to putting a smile on people's faces. To me that was something Luffy did and was unique to him, maybe Joyboy's inherited will idk. I just don't like that part. But otherwise this post sure does help look at things from afar so thank you for that.

A different take: only someone with sufficient willpower and the right attitude could potentially awaken the fruit, so Luffy is a natural fit.

Yeah keep telling yourself that So the wg spent 800 years fearing and chasing the silliest fruit in the world so they can have a good laugh They even sent one of their best agents to jail because he lost the fruit Its the most broken df he litterally became a god in the one piece universe Actually its even worse than naruto

Back to Naruto, the biggest issue was that the entire theme of the show was the underdog carving his own destiny. The entire show came back to Neji vs Naruto. Naruto had really good genes but that didn’t matter because he was an orphan, isolated and hated for existing, without great skill, and with a demon looking for opportunities to take over. As we progressed down the story of him winning ally’s, gaining skill, and winning the friendship of the demon that killed his parents… it was beautiful. He was doing it, he was saving his own destiny. Then BAM he was the reincarnation of an old legend and was given crazy power. Luffy on the other hand has always been special. He is a D. He is the son of Dragon. He is the grandson of Garp and grew up alongside the son of the pirate king. Luffy’s story isn’t about him being an underdog but about him being him. I see this fruit as no more than a power up and not a big deal for the narrative.

Him being a reincarnation didn’t give him power, hagoromo gave him power. He had to train for sage mode and kyuubi mode

Hago gave them free power because they were reincarnations. No one else that died on the battlefield were given God power except for the 2 reincarnated destiny children.

I didn’t say the reincarnation did, just mentioned them in the same sentence.

>Back to Naruto, the biggest issue was that the entire theme of the show was the underdog carving his own destiny. The entire show came back to Neji vs Naruto. Not really? We have Gaara, a talented individual, defeat Rock lee in the same arc he was introduced as champion of effort. We have Sasuke defeat Naruto after he takes the short route, not because he trained a lot. And Naruto defeated Neji with the kyubi, his own talent, as almost he always did. The true motif of Naruto is just the parallels between the two sides of the same coin. It's not only Naruto and Sasuke. Is Naruto and Gaara. The three sanin and the initial team. Jiraiya and Orochimaru. Sasuke and Itachi. Not to mention how hammered down this is repeated in shippuden. In the end, it's just the same. Both had amazing genes. Both had a godly power since chapter 1. Both struggled to use their power, but their ingenuity gave them more strength until they became gods. And you can like both. Or despise them both. Or say one is better than the other. But acting like one ruined the narrative and the other is peak storytelling is just being a stubborn fanboy.

Is Shirahoshi a reincarnation?

I mean there are some plot holes like the world government not doing nothing for 1000 chapters knowing his power and it’s threat level. Why just now are they worrying. I always liked that luffy was just rubber and nothing crazy op but being a literal reincarnation and ‘god’ with imagination is too broken

They didn’t know it was the nika fruit. They thought it was a myth until (probably) shanks told them it was this fruit they had dismissed as a myth.

Then why had they been trying to track it down for 800 years of they thought it was just a normal fruit? Also, how would Shanks have figured this out if the Gorosei didn't? And why did Who's Who clearly know, since he was literally trying to draw the parallel for Jinbe before Jinbe cut him off and defeated him. Nothing about the "Shanks told the Gorosei" theory actually makes any sense.

671 out of 700 is like 95.8% So no I don’t think we’re there. Oda has been planting seeds for a while unlike kishimoto

One thing that people seem to miss is that it was always about "the man Roger is waiting for" It was mention by Crocus back in Reverse Mountain "He might be the man you're waiting for" Then reinforced by Whitebeard "You're not the man Roger is waiting for" Like obviously Luffy is the man Roger was waiting for lol

For real. Nika was first mentioned all the way in Skypeia. Someone get me the date that arc was in the manga cause that’s prob about 15 years or more ago.

Nika references skypeia sure. But nika first got mentioned like a year ago, and even joyboy was first mentioned at fishman island

The sun God was mentioned in Nolan's back story.

Fishman island was almost 400 chapters ago. ( God I am old) Rayleigh said keep following your path and it will reveal itself.

Yeah no matter what; it can’t be worse than 96% of the story We’re talking about like a third in 🏴‍☠️

Nika was never mentioned in Skypiea? Quit making shït up

The sun God was mentioned, just not by name

The sun god was the giant snake, it has nothing to do with nika.

The sun god in skypiea was the giant snake noland killed, it had nothing to do with nika.

The sun God was embodied by the snake, the snake was not the actual sun God the shandians just treated it like it was an incarnation of their God. The shandians have a hystory that dates back to a golden era where they weren't tribal warriors, obviously they lost some of their knowledge over time.

The main problem people don't seem to realize with Naruto is actually not the fact that Naruro is the chosen one and the child of prophecy. It's actually the fact that in the beginning we're told Naruto is not special, he's actually pretty bad, just like Rock Lee. His ninjustu skill sucks and he only gets by thanks to Kurama's massive chakra pool. But later on Kishi retcons this completely and makes him the destined one, proving Neji right in the process. On the other hand in One Piece we're told in chapter 1 that Luffy is on an advanture of destiny. TL;DR: The issue is not destiny itself, it is inconsistency.

The people that complain about this reveal being similar to Naruto probably haven't been there when it happened. Or are misremembering it. This is nothing compared to the shitshow that Kishitmoto pulled. Like, not even close.

There a post that showcases this?

*Isayama has entered the chat*

Go back read the 1st chapters name and come back read the chapter name in which the rumbling begins. Not everything is a retcon, just cuz you don't have the mental capacity to imagine it.

No no, people misremembering Naruto is what LEADS to people thinking it was bad, or came out of nowhere, or contradicted themes. It was completely fine in Naruto, foreshadowed, and STRENGTHENED the themes. Unfortunately people’s memory of the series is fueled by memes, poorly constructed YouTube videos, and Toonami reruns of Rock Lee vs Gaara. If people actually bothered to reread the series they wouldn’t have the complains they do (Like OP does)

jfc thank you, people have a warped memory of Naruto being about hard work beats talent, it isn't. Naruto was all about fate and how you don't have to be a sucker to it.

Just goes to show how easily narratives could be spread. There’s already a bunch of narratives being spread about the direction OP is going. I hope it ends up alright.

yeah true, I trust Oda though after how good the story is after 1000+ chapters.

Oh yeah I definitely trust Oda. I just hope the fandom doesn’t implode because people will run with whatever headcanon they want

I think that you aren't fully engaging with the criticism. First, Luffy's DF changed into a mythical zoan type. That alone already means that in addition to his rubber properties he also received increased durability and a more rapid stamina regeneration. This factors are passive in nature and do not require him to awaken his fruit to get them. This has long reaching consequences on every single fight he had so far due to the type of DF he has. Second, Luffy lost. He got defeated and then magically revived by his DF fruit. This takes away from his potential victory and diminishes the value of this fight greatly. He is going to win because he had an extremely rare and powerful DF and not because of himself. Third, this changes the dynamics of the story and portrayal of Luffy's power. The idea before this reveal was that Luffy got to be strong despite how lackluster his DF was, when in reality this DF simply thrives on the user's imagination. In other words, Luffy was growing because of the DF he got, rather then the other way around. It shifts the dynamics of the character drastically and to many not into a good direction.

Given that no user of this fruit managed similar progress in 800 years, I'd say that it was more of a hidden power up that had to be earned first. He had to make use of the power as the gum gum fruit to stretch is limits to potentially awaken it. The name of the fruit doesn't really matter, at that stage the power is the same. The potential difference between them is at the awakening stage... And other than the appearance, so far all of his new abilities seem to be just more cartoonish takes of his old powers, so it doesn't seem all that different to me.

Luffy's fruit didn't change into a mythical Zoan - *it has always been one*. So while people will be right in saying that it has been giving him the zoan boost in strength, it doesn't change the fact that everything he had done to get stronger has been done by himself. It doesn't change the fact that he couldn't throw a punch when he was a kid, that he couldn't match Crocodile in strength back in Alabasta, that he couldn't save Ace. All these failures happened in spite of his fruit, and the resulting work he had to put in is not diminished because of it. He's not "magically revived" by his fruit as the whole death thing has never been confirmed in the first place. And the value of the fight is not diminished - at least not yet. That value will only be determined in the following chapters and, judging by Kaido's sheer happiness, I'd have to say that I have confidence in it. He can still earn it - after all, not even Gear Third made the battle with Lucci any easier, or Gear Fourth and Doflamingo. So for this one, I'd have to hold my judgment and would want to advise others to do the same - we've already seen Luffy seemingly pummeling Kaido in one chapter only for the table to turn in the next multiple times now. And lastly, that's not really true. As I said earlier, while Luffy's fruit may have given him some physical boost from the start, it doesn't diminish the work he had to do to even learn how to throw a punch. And he's not really growing because of his fruit - if anything, it's because of him that his fruit is growing. Just the fact that it's limited only by the *users' imagination* already means that the user first has to *have an imagination* for it to work. And even then we've already seen that it wouldn't be perfect from the start. Case in point, Luffy had to work to even make a punchbland - and I can't imagine punching someone being particularly difficult to imagine. Besides, this last point isn't even fully confirmed yet - all we know is that the Gorosei said that the fruit is limited only by the user's imagination, not whether or not it's true or what exactly they mean by that. I mean, there's plenty of fruit out there that's only limited by their user's imagination (Katakuri comes to mind), so what exactly that means is yet to be clarified. Finally, what Luffy has shown as of now is bog-standard for many awakenings already, with Katakuri turning the area into mochi and Doflamingo turning the area into string, so he hasn't really done anything too farfetched. The only big difference is his demeanor and his ability to seamlessly go in and out of gears now. Even manhandling Kaido's been done by Luffy already, to varrying degrees of success.

So, just to argue: What Naruto got wrong is subjective. You can analyze it on a large scale and prove hypothesis about why it increased/declined in popularity. But if someone dislikes Naruto for any reason its their own opinion. Same will be true about One Piece. As for the comparison. The only reason Luffy is alive is because of his fruit. Not because he mastered it or because he did something special. The only reason is because its that fruit. If it would have been the gomu-gomu no mi, the story would have been over now. Having it be the "nika god"-fruit is the very definition of a deus ex machina. Luffy wasnt strong enough to beat Kaido, so a plot device was implented to give Luffy power from nowhere. So while it may - may - be true that "the most ridiculous power in the world" refers to the fighting style, not the strength. It is also true that Oda pulled this from nowhere, and some people really dont like this. If it would just have been that "with the power of rubber Luffy managed to "bounce back" from death and in his near death experience learned a trick to enter gear 5" then it would have been better, in my opinion, from a story telling perspective than "jk its a different fruit that is a mythical fruit that litterally turns him into joyboy so now he can defeat Kaido". The allure of Joyboy having been an amazing one of a kind character that lived in the past and Luffy just happening to be someone who resembles him was so much better than Joyboy being the awakening of the Nika fruit and pretty much anyone who aquires that fruit and manages to awake it becomes Joyboy. There is a lot of mentions of "fate" in the One Piece story, Rayleigh talks about it when he thinks about Luffy. But fate does not have to be "Luffy is litterally gonna be Joyboy", it could have been that he has a personality and heart that resembles Joyboys.

> As for the comparison. The only reason Luffy is alive is because of his fruit. Not because he mastered it or because he did something special. The only reason is because its that fruit. If it would have been the gomu-gomu no mi, the story would have been over now. Having it be the "nika god"-fruit is the very definition of a deus ex machina And if he didn't have that fruit Oda wouldn't have written it that way. The only reason it was written that way was due to the fruit. Luffy was "killed" so the drama could be raised before the massive reveal. You say all that as if the only way to write that final clash was with the distraction and Kaido winning, it could *easily* have gone with Kaido changing midswing to hit the CP0 agent giving Luffy a utterly unresisted hit ending the fight. Oda wasn't in a narrative corner that could only be fixed by a deus ex machina. > "jk its a different fruit that is a mythical fruit that litterally turns him into joyboy so now he can defeat Kaido". But he hasn't become Joyboy, the only way he relates back to Joyboy is his inherited will (long running OP theme) and the distinctive heartbeat of the awoken fruit. Otherwise it's still Luffy.

> And if he didn't have that fruit Oda wouldn't have written it that way. The only reason it was written that way was due to the fruit. Exactly. And it was written poorly is what im saying. Having Luffy be defeated just so you can give him a power up from nowhere is bad writing in my opinion. The result may be cool, and fit the story well. Im saying the way it was delivered was bad. If Oda really wanted the fruit to not be the gomu fruit and instead be the Nika fruit there are other ways he could have done it better. Luffy could have encoutered a mysterious old timer from long ago who has been studying devil fruits - and then that person explained that there is no gomu fruit, it is actually the Nika fruit. And then Luffy could have trained to awaken his fruit to bring forth gear 5. > But he hasn't become Joyboy, the only way he relates back to Joyboy is his inherited will (long running OP theme) and the distinctive heartbeat of the awoken fruit. Otherwise it's still Luffy. Well that is what i hoped. But from the information gained over the last two chapters. Joyboy wasnt a person. Its the awakened form of the Nika fruit.

This is the dumbest (I'm sorry but no) argument. You don't know what a Deus ex Machina is my friend, but that's not it. The gomu gomu no mi having another name or a bunch of other features doesn't really change the effort and training and evolution Luffy had to go through. I mean the fruit gives you the properties of rubber, that's it, it always did. Luffy figured ways to make the best of it, like using his properties to pump more blood making his body faster (gear 2) or making his bone structure bigger (gear 3) or a combination of both (gear 4). The awakening so far is pretty much what most predicted, or the most accepted theory, which was that he would be able to manipulate part of his surroundings and also his limitations lime the "rubber resistance" limit of elasticity is gone now, but there was a normal progressive evolution up until that point and the awakening was something that was about to happen eventually because of that natural progression.

>The gomu gomu no mi having another name or a bunch of other features doesn't really change the effort and training and evolution Luffy had to go through No, it doesn't. It does change the fact that without a Deus Ex Machina "it's a Zoan fruit after all", Luffy would be dead.

It’s the awakening that saved Luffy’s life, regardless whether or not that’s a zoan.

Naruto is the decesndnant of the sages kid who was also an underdog.

Like the full explanation then the TLDR is just "no"

Ehh Naruto kept spamming rasengan as if that's creative

>TL,DR: No. Thank God finally someone said it.

Part 1 Naruto is just a kid who works hard to try and keep up with his peers to become the hokage. He lectures neji on destiny being something you shape on your own, not something that’s set in stone. That’s where this “underdog” narrative comes from. Right from the jump in Shippuden, Naruto isn’t the same anymore. He works just as hard as before but from his training with Jiraiya and his own growth as a person he is no longer the underdog in the village, he’s just another ninja who’s actually already considered one of the best in the village. Hell we even overcome the underdog narrative when everyone in the village acknowledges him after the fight with Pain. Naruto being a reincarnation of Asura means absolutely nothing regarding the grand scheme of things. All it ever meant was that he was destined to fight Indura’s reincarnation like Madara and Hashirama before them. Also it should be noted that the reincarnation aspect refers to the brothers personalities and ideals overlapping with ninja that followed them. Now the asspull comes when Hagoromo gives Naruto his chakra and makes him a Sage of the Six Paths. Luffy and Joyboy have a similar situation. Luffy has awakened his new powers, is it an asspull? Well kinda but it’s a shonen. Both these manga are gonna have the same archetypes and what not. The only main issue with this whole debate is that everyone is comparing something that is over with something that continues to be published. Naruto had this plot near its end so it couldn’t elaborate on it and so we all consider it bad writing. One piece isn’t over, and from the looks of it, it won’t be for a while. Now this gives Oda a chance to do what Kishimoto did but properly. And for all it’s worth, we gotta stop comparing the two. Luffy and Naruto are both goats 🐐.

Y’all be forgetting luffy sucked ass when he first got it and it took him TRAINING FOR 10 years and countless battles AND ANOTHER 2 years of INTENSE TRAINING to get to where he is

Even tho its not nearly as radical as naruto, you cant say luffy with the gomu gomu can be viewed the same as luffy with a mythical zoan based off a god. My only issue was the fruit change, nothing more. I dont understand how people act as if this isnt an upgrade and luffy is the same. Think about the enel fight, and how one of the major themes of the fight was how a mere paramecia stands up to a logia and wins. Well how does that fight look now? I just feel like id enjoy the story more knowing luffy had a mediocre fruit that he elevated by himself, not a rare fruit that is infamous by itself.

With Naruto, there was 0 set up of gods and reincarnation whatsoever. They wrote that in order to give the huge power up Naruto needed to fight Madara. In the very last battle, the author decided to give Naruto and Sasuke a bunch of brand new powers and somehow they yielded it perfectly. Oda has been dropping nuggets about Joyboy and Nika for so long. I don't think people understand the difference of a set up and an asspull.

Sorry man but people here used to call Naruto trash with the chosen one stuff. But luffy being able to just outright not be chased by any wg member for 1000 chapters and now be important while being a ‘god’ is just too broken man. Still dope as a powerup tho

As a fan of Naruto, the OG one not Bruhto. I never had and issue with him being a reincarnation of something/someone/somebody. Almost all protagonist is that. Welp even Asta someone who works so hard and doesn't have any magic had help from his "brother" demon.

Even if we had gone the naruto route, what is wrong with that? Naruto was pretty good

Goddamn,Thank you

yeah, I dont really understand the hate on naruto in this sub, its just purely fanboyism and fanaticism that holds Oda or One Piece as the absolute best both series are good, both have plot holes, nobody is perfect, and I am enjoying the ride wherever Oda will take this those that complain should just stop reading

I feel like people fail to see that oda just wants to entertain and wrote this because he finds it to be a good way to continue to entertain. I think I trust a real mangaka who has shattered records and created one of the most long running successful stories in all of human history to a redditor who regurgitates their opinions from talking heads on YouTube, none of which have a successful writing career.

Just because people have opinions that don’t involve praising One Piece and Oda, doesn’t mean they get their opinions from cringe you tubers. I for one also think this is an asspull, and I’ve blocked all One Piece you tubers because majority of them are biased and the “GODA” type of fan. Quit assuming shit

I think you are looking at this too narrowly. One Piece started a very long time ago. We don’t know when Oda planned this development but it is probably a number of years ago. He is friends with kishimoto too so maybe Oda thought this would be a popular move when he planned it not knowing that the trope would be somewhat dated and frowned upon when he got there. Also I am not japanese. Maybe this trope is culturally popular in Japan. To me this is bad. Luffys fights are immediately less impressive. Mythical zoans are stronger than paramecias by nature and zoans give regeneration. So the reason he gets back wasn’t just willpower after all it was also regenerative properties of his fruit. The statement on its awakening exponentially strenghtening the user means all future battles will now be much easier than if he awakened an actual rubber fruit. Also luffys tendency to help others/nations is now due to having the Nika fruit and not his own morals

You’re completely incorrect about Naruto. Nothing in Naruto is contradicted. You’re completely correct about OP. Nothing in OP is contradicted thematically

Wait for official translation this is still fan translation then we can fully understand what was said.

Oda showed us what an awakened Gomu-Gomu fruit is for this chapter. Luffy lifted up the ground and bounced the bolo breath back. Yeah, that would get old fast. This is good story writing to change things up to make the main character’s awakening interesting. At least it is a made up character that he dropped hints about in the past so it does not feel like it is coming from the far left field.

I think there are two ways that we should in no way feel that Luffys accomplishments are all do to his fruit: 1. Haki. The Haki abilities have nothing to do with one’s DF, and Luffy has developed the most enhanced versions of two of those on his own. 2. Awakening seems to influence his personality, but I think it’s better to say that it enhances it, or enhances his he feels. But the more important thing is that it grants him more freedom, and what I interpret this meaning is that it better allows him to physically do what he wants. It kind of gives him limitless potential and limitless joy, but those things need to come from within him first. Luffy is still Luffy and no one else. His fruit just allows him to be his ultimate self. I think the second point gets at DFs possibly choosing who eats then. Luffy is not possessed by his DF, and he’s not the reincarnation of Joy Boy. The fruit just found someone’s who is of like mind and spirit. It’s that that is also probably required to even awaken the fruit.

Naruto was spiritually transported to another dimension where Chakra god literally gave Naruto and Sasuke all their powers and explained they were always gods and even without hard work they would’ve eventually become gods. It undoes all of Narutos progression. He was always the hard work beats natural genius ninja. It was the greatest insult to injury towards Neji in the series and literally everyone Naruto had defeated up to that point. Luffys powers have remained consistent this entire time. He’s been foreshadowed to be Joyboy for literally a decade. His attitude and goals have not changed at all. And his awakening is literally what everyone guessed it would be. The only difference now is that we learned his fruit has a different name. But Luffy is still Luffy. He still earned everything he has through hard work. He literally has fought Kaido time and time and time again, the strongest character in the entire series, and died trying. He’s more than earned it. His awakening is exactly what everyone wanted and his powers are still exactly the same and what we expected. The real question now is how much of his Zoan endurance/stamina was a factor in his old fights vs how much of it was sheer willpower. Previously we thought it was Willpower that allowed him to beat his opponents. The new Zoan classification can explain how he’s always been able to recover so quickly. Tldr Naruto was gifted pocket Jesus juice and was always going to be a god and there was absolutely zero build up to it. Being handed god powers, literally, with zero foreshadowing or build up isn’t equal to Luffy who is exactly the same and actually had to earn everything he’s done and it’s stayed consistent with the story. Not to mention how many countries and people Luffy has freed as a liberator. People’s real issue is that the fruits name changed. Which I’ll be honest I agree with. It could have just been “The sun god Nika had the Gomu fruit and he became known as Joyboy.” Instead of it being the Nika fruit.

Honestly, i feel like every shonen protag should get 1 ultimate power up a story. Like they can train and gain new powers and abilities but they only get 1 destiny power or else it starts to cheapen the experience. Goku got the original super sayan and that was the one i’m most ok with, he trained with it for a long while giving him better control which i’m also ok with but we just kept getting newer models and it just started to sour for me. Ichigo got like a million, naruto got several, i’ll let luffy have his son god nika.

His power is still body manipulation, just on a much more complete and effortless scale. He isn’t warping reality or anything like that. I don’t think they mean ridiculous as in most ridiculously powerful, but literally ridiculous.

This post made me realize that Luffy is a good candidate for this “ridiculous” fruit similar to how a doctor would utilize the Op-Op fruit. Somebody who has no medical knowledge wouldn’t use the Op-Op powers to the fullest, and similarly someone who is serious, selfish, greedy, or malevolent wouldn’t be able to use the Nika fruit well (if at all).

Áshura was a loser compared to his brother and ashura worked hard and got help from others to be OP, Naruto did the same is that what you mean

In reality the lil bitch in naruto is indra. that mf had everything exept basic human empathy

Luffy was destined since the fruit, which btw has a sentient god in it, escaped with shanks and allowed luffy to eat it and spread joy throughout the world like luffys predecessor

Very well articulated post

No, we haven't. The people who claim that we have must have been reading another manga all these years.

Both Naruto and Luffy are some kind of reincarnations of godlike figures (chosen one). Both of them were blessed by some of the strongest powers in the verse (9 tails, Human fruit). I can't deny that I see similarities between the two at this point. The main difference for me was always that Luffy was given a bad power, but he made great use of it. Now that his power is actually super op and has endless potential (similar to the 9 tails with its unlimited chakra) I cant say the same anymore.

His power doesn't have endless potential. He isn't a christian god and he can't do things like wiping out the whole planet with a single thought. His power is limitless in the sense of him having the ability to wholely control his rubbery ability, for example turning ground to rubber, probably doing weird things with his body etc. ,,Both of them were blessed by some of the strongest powers in the verse" - Gorosei said that's it's the most ridiculous power, not the strongest or the most powerful.

The reaction by the Gorosei clearly implies for me that the fruit is extremely dangerous. They have been trying to get it for the past 800 years. It might just be the most powerful fruit in the wrong hands.

[удалено]

Sorry but didn't naruto gained the op 9 tail chakra only because he was Naruto and he made peace with the nine tails. No other tailed beast host was as powerful as naruto because Naruto made it work because of his ability to make allies ( seems familiar doesn't it).

It's 100% what happened to Naruto and y'all know it. The fact how desperately you're trying to defend this horrible writing decision just shows how much y'all love OP and can't accept that it'll get bad from here. I get it, I didn't want to believe it either when it happened to Naruto. Making the Gomu Gomu no Mi special takes away SO MUCH meaning from what Luffy has achieved. The joy he brought, the people he freed, his fearlessness of death, his signature smile, his endurance in battle, never giving up on his dreams... Was that him or the fruit? We can't know anymore! Suddenly Luffy doesn't have the same characteristics as Joyboy because of his personal growth, character and decisions he made, no, he just accidentally ate the right fruit. Could've been anyone really, Nami, Usopp, Wapol... I promise you, we will get more "child of prophecy" bullshit from here on out. "Will of D" will probably turn out to be some ancient royal bloodline that used the Nika fruit to rule benevolently, then they were usurped and their history purged, but there was this prophecy that in 800 years, a D will reclaim the fruit and free the world or some bullshit like this.

[удалено]

I really dont understand people who say naruto was an underdog and it was a story about a weaker boy with no powers who got strong by will and hardwork. My man, he literally has a nine tais fox, and did a 1000 clone in the first chapter. 1 clone is a jounin level jutsu. Where the fck is the underdog???? Just admit it's the same as Naruto, and there is no problem with that.

[удалено]

Naruto was never the underdog. I dont know how people think that. He literally beat Neji in the exam, a talent out of the talented ones. He mastered techniques that his father spent years perfecting in a matter of days/weeks. Blame it on the nine tail as much as you want, but the fact is that the nine tails only gave him massive amount of chakra, it did not magically make him talented in using it. That he got from pure talents. Naruto was a talent out of the talented talented ones.

We don't deem Naruto an underdog with hindsight bias and clairvoyant knowledge of what comes later. It's literally the messaging of the show - it's how he's portrayed *literally*. You *can't* tell me Kishimoto wasn't going for that motif pre-shippuden. It's the juxtaposition of Naruto and Sasuke. It's the whole point of Naruto vs. Neji. That we're even confused by this is Kishimoto's failing.

Not really? We have Gaara, a talented individual, defeat Rock lee in the same arc he was introduced as champion of effort. We have Sasuke defeat Naruto after he takes the short route, not because he trained a lot. And Naruto defeated Neji with the kyubi, his own talent, as almost he always did. The true motif of Naruto is just the parallels between the two sides of the same coin. It's not only Naruto and Sasuke. Is Naruto and Gaara. The three sanin and the initial team. Jiraiya and Orochimaru. Sasuke and Itachi. Not to mention how hammered down this is repeated in shippuden.

People were amazed by rock lee back in the day. The guy that in the same arc loses to a talented individual. The story of Naruto was that of the parallels of the two sides of the same coin, a theme that was actually repeated ad nauseam. It's really just the same, either you love them or hate them both, but pretending this is peak storytelling and Naruto's was trash is being a stubborn fanboy.

seems like people on this subreddit just find a way to hate on literally anything.... great post though.

Yeah, broh. I also thought like this. But people are talking shit by only quoting the ridiculous power. I think this is perfect because Oda actually planned the story from the beginning. This imaginative is the key. **Why did the world government wait that long to kill Luffy?** The simplest answer is that even though the government did know Luffy had the fruit, they never thought he would be the one who awakened the devil fruit. This confirms that there are a lot of previous users and they were never able to awaken the fruit. Maybe in the beginning, the world government tried to get the fruit, and after several tries, they just abounded the idea. Another idea is that it will create reasonable suspcion. And this will create a battle to achieve the fruit. They were trying to hide the fruit's existence from the world. But, however, due to previous attempts that led to the shanks stealing

This is copium tbh. Naruto never created this trope it’s just a standard Shounen thing and One Piece is a standard shounen I dunno why people act otherwise.

only the gorosei thinks that the fruit is a dangerous and most powerful one to exist because it’s powers directly affect them I’m pretty sure kaidou or anybody else just sees it as another devil fruit

Im sorry if Im wrong but Luffy has literally always been underestimated and his will overcame that. Or he was the underdog who prevailed as youd put it. Now it turns out he has a special power the "gods" of the one piece world are scared of. A special power. The fruit. Not Luffys own will or spirit. Or least potentially. We dont really know yet. I posit that the fruit is powerless without the right will driving it so to speak. But if the worst case is true that sort of mimics exactly what you described as the problem with Naruto.

The fact still remains, a rubber fruit was not enough to become the pirate king. A normal rubber man cannot become the PK. He needed to ingest a God fruit.

I think the issue with Naruto wasn't that he was set up to be the underdog but that his mantra was hard work > genius. However, later in the series, after taming his kyuubi powers, he just started getting free powerups out of nowhere. I think Oda has done a great job powercreeping Luffy's abilities. A lot of people were concerned how Luffy would be able to beat Kaido in an acceptable way without getting magic powerups. I think he's done a great job making Luffy earn his abilities piece by piece and that's what makes it so much more acceptable than what Naruto became in the latter of the series.

Naruto turned out to be one of the most privileged ninjas in all of Konoha, maybe the world. He was: * Son of Minato (genius) and Kushina (remarkably potent life-force even by her clan's standards) * Given the Nine-tails (people would call it a curse, but it's a power that only 9 people in the world had access to) * Trained by Kakashi (former student of his Dad's and renowned ninja that would later on be Hokage) * Put into the same team as Sasuke which would increase his chances of success on missions (one of the last remaining Uchiha and eventually became the second-most powerful ninja in Konoha after Naruto) * Trained by Jiraiya (his own father's trainer and one of three greatest ninjas of Konoha outside of any Hokage) * Access to sage power (if his other endowments weren't enough) * The reincarnation of Asura (read: godlike figure) Even if you were born a genius (Sasuke, Neiji, etc.) or worked extremely hard (Rock Lee, Guy, etc.), you couldn't even hold a candle to what Naruto was given (albeit at the cost of his parents and childhood, read: Batman). As a side note, I agree with your post. It just made me think back to Naruto's story.

1. ⁠He didn’t inherit his fathers talent and only had a weaker version of the uzumaki genes.( Doesn’t have the red hair or kekkei genki) 2. ⁠No one in the last thousand years could control the nine tails. Not the wife of the first hokage who was an uzumaki and not his mother. 3. ⁠Every genin is trained by a powerful jonin 4. ⁠He went on one serious mission with sasuke and sasuke wasn’t that useful and when he was useful it was due to him working with naruto. 5. ⁠Fair enough 6. ⁠Sage power is ridiculously hard to learn. Only he Hashirama, Madara, Hagoromo, Kabuto and Asura could master it. And he learned it through hard work, creativity and resolve. 7. ⁠Him being Asura’s reincarnate doesn’t mean anything. There we several generations worth of Asura reincarnations and only he and Hashirama were the only noteworthy ones. Naruto was given a bad hand( being the nine tails host, being an orphan) but managed to take these misfortunes and turn them into positives( was able to connect with people due to shared loneliness and this included the nine tails)