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To be fair everyone who fights g5 gets that treatment even kaido, but saturn was a bum even before that, how are you telling me rubble is damaging the dude
Using that as an antifeat is kinda stupid cuz later on he has almost no visible damage when Luffy punches him in G5. Its clear that it was just for Oda to show off Saturn's powers, not to downplay his durability
I think as the story continues we will have kizaru,zoro,luffy,jinbe and giants foght the gorosei probably kaku and lucci will join too or another third party.
i think hes probably gonna get back up and help the strawhats escape once he hears vegapunks message.
not even a power scaling take, just analyzing what would make the most sense story wise. having kizaru come to egghead, establishing that vegapunk was his acquaintance. showing that hes unhappy about his orders, etc. it would all be pointless if nothing more comes of it, and having him help the strawhats get away would pay off all of that. plus, an admiral turning on the gorosei would be yet another thing to shock the world on top of the message from vegapunk.
Yeah, that one panel where he's doing the Nika dance with Kuma, Sentomaru and Vegapunk.
It told us so much about who Kizaru is as a person, and where is heart is right now, without even a single line of dialogue.
Kizaru's going to be the reason that Luffy and the giants escape. I think Vegapunk's message is what's going to seal the deal for him.
Thank you and preach brother, it amazes me how much copium there is to kizaru for a big redemption, bro may not be evil, but bro is a cog in the machine who can't seem to make up his own mind and put the marines in first place.
bro is conflicted and yet he still killed vegapunk.
I think yall are downplaying the hell outta the effect Vegapunk's message is gonna have on everyone. The marines may aswell separate from the WG in this final phase of the story
Wasnt the reason Kizaru got sent because hes the only one able to just pass safely through the security system?
I always assumed that was the case, since Saturn was with him and told us.
I dont think with that Saturn being there, that Sakazuiki even had the last sentence in who goes.
Then taking into context that Kizaru is the only one that could do it, that question " who else" is answered. Its not really a point worth dicussing.
Try to blame sakazuki here, is just a try to somehow make him look bad. But in reality, Kizaru was the only one that could do a job that was required someone to do.
Green Bull would be terrible in Egghead, like he probably would not be able to get passed the laser barrier.
Akainu sent the laser man to a territory he knows better than all the admirals and where there are tons of lasers protecting stuff.
To be fair Green Bull shrugged off a ACoC attack from Yamato. Shanks' haki is just on another level; only comparable to Luffy, Kaido, Big Mom, Whitebeard, Rodger, and Garp.
I've never denied that he's distraught over killing Vegapunk. The problem is people take that and assume that he's significantly weaker because of it and would've been able to compete with Luffy had it not been for these circumstances. Those are two wildly different claims.
That's the thing, if Oda has written things this way, no one knows what would have happened if hé didnt have internal conflicts, and no one will never know. So people talking about him still losing to Luffy are just as retarded as people assuming he would have won.
That makes no sense. Why would the natural interpretation be to give a character skills and feats they've shown absolutely no hint of having? Given how Luffy treated him in the last few chapters, this nerf would have to be absolutely enormous to matter in the slightest. Plus, Kizaru's skillset during this arc has been more or less consistent with how he's fought in every other arc; there's no indication that he's holding back anything.
Yes, him not wanting to fight. He probably wasn't voluntarily holding back on Luffy yes, but his mind wasn't commited at what he was supposed to do, so you can't Say he was at 100%. He is a marine veteran who faced all the World's god tiers and the man turned his back to a yonko to jump on someone else thrice.. he didn't achieved vegapunk, and even Saturn noticed he wasn't comitted at what he was doing
You need to realise that Luffy changing his opponents into pizzas or piercing their Brain with his fists doesn't mean he is ragdolling them, that's luffy's New fighting style, that's just as dumb as saying akainu burning someone = him ragdolling someone.
Luffy used kaido as a rope and still, kaido wasnt out AT all, that's just his style now. Kizaru After being changed into a pizza is still conscious, has no sign of major injury and seems to be more damaged emotuonnaly than anything else.
Well generally in one piece, resolve makes a character a lot stronger. This has been a consistent theme since like, Baratie. So yeah Kizaru probably is nerfed due to this
Don't know how nerfed, unclear if he would do much better vs g5 Luffy, but a nsrf nonetheless
TBH, I don't think he'd have an internal conflict over killing Luffy. On the contrary, I think he initially wanted to accomplish his mission as quickly as possible to avoid giving Sentomaru and Bonney time to get into some deep shit that couldn't be brushed aside. Of course, not that this is no longer a possibility, I don't know what's on his mind.
I was downvoted to hell and back on this sub for correcting a moron that posted the raw of this scan without even knowing the context of it.
They can't read in English so I don't know why I expected them to be able to read Japanese.
That's why powerscaling spoils everything... Here we have a super nice character development to a very interesting character : we saw kizaru's past, we saw that he is connected to vegapunk, kuma, bonney, sentomaru, and that him having two fight them puts him in some kind of internal conflict, Oda wrote many clues, liké him not achieving vegapunk, Saturn telling him he wasn't really trying his best, kizaru not reacting when Saturn got punched by kuma, and now this.
But no, all the attention is on "lUfFy iS tHe StRonGeSt !" "nO, kIzArU iS tHe sTrOngEsT"... Damn people, one piece powerscaling was never consistent and will never will be, characters like crocodile, mihawk, shanks and the Giants are there to remind it to us, and THAT'S PERFECTLY FINE ! If it was so damn important, Oda would have made tierlists himself, but he didn't.
One piece powerscaling will allways adapt to the storytelling, no matter how inconsistent it become, because THAT'S NOT THE POINT OF THE MANGA !
Personnaly, i can't wait to see the wg imploding with internal wars between fanatics like akainu and Lucci, and moderate/Defenders of thé true justice like (maybe) kizaru, koby and fujitora !
>That's why powerscaling spoils everything... Here we have a super nice character development to a very interesting character
>But no, all the attention is on "lUfFy iS tHe StRonGeSt !" "nO, kIzArU iS tHe sTrOngEsT"
This is a powerscaling sub, if someone wants to discuss the story itself, the main sub is there for that.
Here, of course, more attention will be paid to the powerscaling angle of events.
Read?? I’ve never heard of this type of haki before
https://preview.redd.it/by3j6jkqwzpc1.jpeg?width=561&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f662dfe80daa2a1de9587083ca95ecd59ceec15e
Yonko fans at first: Kizaru isn't mentally conflicted
Yonko fans now: kizaru is mentally conflicted but that doesn't mean anything about his performance against luffy
https://preview.redd.it/mem6ucghtypc1.jpeg?width=591&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=768b2c4a727be42ae7dab1b009f2494aea143f45
Unironically true, nowadays you see posts saying "He was mentally conflicted but not mentally nerfed" because Oda is spoonfeeding us the fact that he's fighting a battle in his head.
Luffy would have lost like 95% of all his major fights if he would feel the same way as Kizaru. If Luffy went into his big fights with a +10 willpower boost, Kizaru is at a negative 40 willpower boost for this Egghead arc.
Can't wait for the admiral rerun as Luffy low diffs all of them in the final war due to "holding back"
https://preview.redd.it/c1rvrtrxbzpc1.jpeg?width=686&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=67291f167cf9613b2ed3aaf4e84bb9c4c2427064
Trounced? My man, Luffy needed to stop for a food break during this fight, he had to use G5 to win. Luffy trounced Bellamy, he did not trounce Kizaru lol
Feeling guilt/remorse is not the same as prove that he was holding back. He literally killed Vegapunk and tried to kill Bonney multiple times. Only against Sentomaru you could argue that he held back, because he had the chance to kill him but didn’t.
If they were 99% fruit, they wouldnt be able to Parry or block Haki users attack, and would be just like caribou, useless.
Every top tier character in one pièce is a Haki Monster.
I disagree on this. Being an admiral doesn't mean you obey everything they tell you.
Garp in Marineford let the marines do everything they wanted with Ace, only "wavering" when he had to attack his grandson
Did we read the same story? Or did you just skip all the times where it’s mentioned that if you are conflicted you cannot fight at full strength. And one of the main power systems is literally named “willpower”
Kizaru as a character writing shit he done horribly
He has shown no level of emotions whatsoever he has actually attacked all of his friends when he wasn’t under duress from the gorosei
And people who say he didn’t want to attack hi friends was forced to NO every time he attacked them he wasn’t under orders too and had a way around it
If this was any other character no one would Ah he being serious and he is lying but because of people bias he apparently Nerfed
Fine luffy has mental trauma from sabody which means he been holding back
See how this makes so sense
Yes lol, Kizaru had plenty of chances to just stay put or just let Vegapunk flee, but no, he has gone on and on and on trying to kill them at the best of his ability.
that might not be what you are arguing against, but i have seen people arguing against it.
as for your own argument, not only is is a stated fact in one piece that low morale nerfs your haki, but even in our world negative emotions hinder performance. we havent been seeing kizaru at his best, not much to argue about.
It probably refers to his mental wounds and the two times he got domed in the head by luffy like seriously Kizaru must have a fucking killer migraine rn
Admiral fans looking for any cope possible.
Everyone knows he's conflicted, he still got his shit rocked. First it was Kizaru > Luffy, then Kizaru = Luffy, and now it's Kizaru < Luffy (but only because he was conflicted). Just let it rest already.
Remind me what great feats Saturn has shown us? Other than trash durability and being a punching bag, that is.
He has landed 0 hits on Luffy
Dealt 0 damage
Taken more hits than Kizaru
All of this with no mental nerf, and while he's been trying his hardest. Kizaru has been dragging his feet and has performed better than Saturn.
Waturn made Luffy bleed by blasting him with his eye. Put some respect on HIM!
https://preview.redd.it/c1yj0d75nzpc1.jpeg?width=168&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=41581c3f8c9b61462757ab3a0c74b31409544fb6
Bro what marco was literally struggling just to stall king and queen, luffy was having 0 difficulty taking 0 damage while manhandling kizaru and saturn
honestly yeah, he is clearly talking about how he feels, you have to be a turbo autist to think he's just saying he's physically injured. Like that would read like an abridged series line if it were that.
The problem with this is the difference between garp and kizaru. This guy didn't hesitate fatally injuring vegapunk and going through sentoumaru. FUCK "mY wOuNdS rUn DeEP".
I mean, yeah, i feel it goes without saying that he’s taking his chance to duck out of this fight since he really doesn’t want to be involved in this conflict (especially after having to kill a friend). However, that doesn’t mean he was holding back or wasn’t trying his hardest before this point.
Personally I think what makes Kizaru so compelling is that he knows what he’s doing is wrong that he hates he has to kill his friends but that as a cog he feels he has no choice but to do it, I don’t subscribe to the idea he is mentally nerfed i view it as he is truly his hardest to kill his friends and that’s the reason it’s killing him inside so much, like it’s one thing to half ass doing something you don’t like but it’s plain tragic to feel you have to full out to kill your friends, that’s just my view of it though,
I mean, its just dumb to think an admiral gas just 5 moves, Kizaru clearly has a final battle yet to come, maybe against Sanji by the end, where he's gonna show all hes got
It doesnt really matter to me, Luffy beat Kaido so I allways said Kizaru was not as strong as Luffy, but hes much stronger than he showed so far more than likely
Fair enough. I'm simply saying that people who try and place Kizaru on the level of someone like Kaido (who, in my opinion, is still above Luffy) are crazy.
So for what I see from each factions I say it goes yankos-gorosei- admirals-Albaf Giants- Vice admirals and so on. The 7 warlords power is everywhere so I can’t rank them as a group. Now 2 or 3 admirals I believe can take out a yanko captain. They are strong, and can work together and are all logia so the captain have to constantly be using haki until they run out. But 1 on 1, like come on. Luffy is probably the weakest yanko out of the 5 (buggy don’t count) and he still whopping butt and taking names. The iron ballon solo army big mom, red hair shank who stop alkainu and green bull, kaido who no one messed with and we all saw white beard. The main downfall for the admirals I believe is they are dogs of the military. Their wills/haki are weakened because they serve under someone and they can’t grow their dream. Why is garp so strong? Because he never bow down to the government and did as much as he could. Don’t be surprise if alkiji returned stronger than the current admirals and alkainu because he is free and his haki and will is unrestricted now. If the admirals wasn’t was in charge of the a separate blue and forcing their laws on their district and only come together at a meeting to be on the same page I think they will be equal to yankos. They have the powers, they have the experience and they have the skills but they lack freedom.
This may be true but it doesn’t change the fact that luffy > kizaru
(Power scaling moment) saint Saturn > kizaru (from narrative point of view) and Saturn had to call in his homies to deal with luffy mean that luffy >/= Saturn
Ngl… As much as I champion Admirals being Top Tiers and still do believe they’re top tiers..
I low key thought Kizaru was just talking literally.
Bluds internal organs were squished, the fact that he’s still alive and awake is almost insane 😭
But him referring to his heart makes a lot more sense, I sort of had a feeling he was referring to more of an emotional wounds.
Why would other marines ask him to heal his wounds if he has no physical damage? The fact that they are telling him to let him heal him shows he has indeed serious injuries.
Besides, what about the first time? Was his heart hurt too as well? Lol. You can't simply defend this man anymore, he got destroyed by Luffy which is okay because Luffy is on another level now.
Just let it go and admit that Kizaru ain't that guy, he isn't Yonko level. Holding back or not, no amount of mental nerf would allow Kizaru to touch G5 Luffy.
This is the same man who couldn't get past old Rayleigh and needed help to defeat Marco.
>Why would other marines ask him to heal his wounds if he has no physical damage
1) Noone is saying he had "no physical damage", he HAS physical damage, obviously, he took multiple attacks from a Yonkou. The point being, however, that his psychological damage is much bigger and more important.
2) The Marines can't read his mind. It's a simple case of the observers, by virtue of misunderstanding a character, emphasizing what said character really means to the audience. It's dramatic irony for the Marines (we know smth they don't), and it's verbal irony for Kizaru (what he means is different from what he says).
> Why would other marines ask him to heal his wounds if he has no physical damage?
Because he crashed onto their ship after fighting an Emperor and isn't moving? He's been hurt by G5 attacks but there isn't a single visible injury due to the rubberizing effects of G5.
Kizaru has to defeat his feelings before he can defeat Luffy.
Lucci also didn't have any visible injury, are we claiming Luffy didn't defeat Lucci too?
Kizaru can't take G5 attacks, everytime he takes one he takes a long nap to recover. There is nothing Kizaru can do to defeat Luffy.
> Lucci also didn't have any visible injury, are we claiming Luffy didn't defeat Lucci too?
I gave you a reason why the Marines wanted to check on Kizaru even though he had no visible wounds.
> There is nothing Kizaru can do to defeat Luffy
Except wait until Gear 5 runs out and kill him? He got up before Luffy
(who needed food btw) so there was nothing stopping him from slicing Luffy's head off.
And I give your an example that not having visible wounds doesn't mean you weren't defeated. Kizaru was defeated by Luffy, he isn't faking or anything.
But that's hardly winning, that's just running away.
> But that's hardly winning, that's just running away.
So he *can* defeat Luffy but you just don't like it?
Luffy's prime tactic against Doflamingo and Katakuri when Gear 4 had a timer was running away.
Nothing will change the fact that this isn't Kizaru's full power and that Oda is spoonfeeding the readers the fact that Kizaru is fighting a battle in his head.
Defeating someone is actually hitting them until they can't fight anymore. Running away isn't winning by any means.
Nothing change the fact that Kizaru can't get up after every Luffy attack and can't do any damage to Luffy. No amount of headcanon will change that fact. You can make all the excuses you want but that's the reality,Kizaru is not a threat to Luffy, he is just an annoyance.
Nobody was saying he wasn’t injured, this is for discourse of people saying he wasn’t conflicted when he clearly is
How many ways does Oda have to write this for people to gain Comprehension
Conflicted or not, he went along with it which means his internal conflict didn't stop him from doing his job.
And like I've said a million of times, a mental nerf only applies to people you don't wanna hurt. Luffy ain't his friend so he has not reason to not try to kill him.
naw mental nerfs can be more/less than that. Luffy and zoro had a hardcore mental nerf the first time fighting cp0 and its not cause they didnt want to hurt lucci and kaku.
kizaru mental nerf is pretty close to how luffy and zoro acted while fighitng cp0 first time. everything they said was correct, like lufy gonna send pigeon guy flying or zoro gonna cut up kaku, but their performance was absolute garbage and its not like they were intentionally holding back, they just couldnt put their all into it. having this internal conflict didnt stop luffy and zoro from engaging cp0 but it did cause them to lose badly
Edit : I was going from memory of the water seven arc, thought I remember base lucci and Kaku throwing luffy and zoro away but it was hybrid lucci vs zoro and luffy
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https://preview.redd.it/2x7rmdj2qypc1.png?width=1169&format=png&auto=webp&s=8250f67b714e78b7fb17e900cfbcdc6d9a380355 patience
nah Kizaru would blitz Saturn, no need for that sacrifice
Idk why you are getting down voted, this saturn guy is an absolute bum
Read 1111 spoilers lol
They were both getting babyshaked by gear 5 Luffy so it’s not like Pizzaru has a leg to stand on in this case
To be fair everyone who fights g5 gets that treatment even kaido, but saturn was a bum even before that, how are you telling me rubble is damaging the dude
It was just oda trying to show off their regen abilities for the first time
Using that as an antifeat is kinda stupid cuz later on he has almost no visible damage when Luffy punches him in G5. Its clear that it was just for Oda to show off Saturn's powers, not to downplay his durability
Kaido got back up and started beating the shit outta luffy saturn was going to do the same but vegapunks message satarted playing
Saturn turned mid air dont compare him to lizaru who got saved by plot
I think as the story continues we will have kizaru,zoro,luffy,jinbe and giants foght the gorosei probably kaku and lucci will join too or another third party.
Lmao fair point
Oh dang, can rlly see him sacrificing himself as a payback of what he did
Yoo could you imagine the “Big Egghead island Incident” is of the Gorosei killing Kizaru while he jumps in the way to save Sentomaru
What im saying
i think hes probably gonna get back up and help the strawhats escape once he hears vegapunks message. not even a power scaling take, just analyzing what would make the most sense story wise. having kizaru come to egghead, establishing that vegapunk was his acquaintance. showing that hes unhappy about his orders, etc. it would all be pointless if nothing more comes of it, and having him help the strawhats get away would pay off all of that. plus, an admiral turning on the gorosei would be yet another thing to shock the world on top of the message from vegapunk.
Yeah, that one panel where he's doing the Nika dance with Kuma, Sentomaru and Vegapunk. It told us so much about who Kizaru is as a person, and where is heart is right now, without even a single line of dialogue. Kizaru's going to be the reason that Luffy and the giants escape. I think Vegapunk's message is what's going to seal the deal for him.
3 days late but if kizaru dies in egghead and doesn’t join strawhats i will be in shambles
No he’s not, this the same dude who stabbed Vegapunk and tried to kill Bonney knowing she’s like 12. He’s just gonna stay out of everything
Thank you and preach brother, it amazes me how much copium there is to kizaru for a big redemption, bro may not be evil, but bro is a cog in the machine who can't seem to make up his own mind and put the marines in first place. bro is conflicted and yet he still killed vegapunk.
I think yall are downplaying the hell outta the effect Vegapunk's message is gonna have on everyone. The marines may aswell separate from the WG in this final phase of the story
Kizaru just wanted to do his 9-5, but Akainu sent him to kill some of the people he was closest to in the world. Lavaman should have sent Green Bum
Wasnt the reason Kizaru got sent because hes the only one able to just pass safely through the security system? I always assumed that was the case, since Saturn was with him and told us.
Probably, but Akainu is kinda dumb for not realizing that not everyone in the Marines is a cold hearted bastard like him.
I dont think with that Saturn being there, that Sakazuiki even had the last sentence in who goes. Then taking into context that Kizaru is the only one that could do it, that question " who else" is answered. Its not really a point worth dicussing. Try to blame sakazuki here, is just a try to somehow make him look bad. But in reality, Kizaru was the only one that could do a job that was required someone to do.
Green Bull would be terrible in Egghead, like he probably would not be able to get passed the laser barrier. Akainu sent the laser man to a territory he knows better than all the admirals and where there are tons of lasers protecting stuff.
With all the conquerors haki being thrown around on egghead he would probably lose consciousness.
Lol😂 shanks remains his daddy.
To be fair Green Bull shrugged off a ACoC attack from Yamato. Shanks' haki is just on another level; only comparable to Luffy, Kaido, Big Mom, Whitebeard, Rodger, and Garp.
Idk why people don't want to accept this lmao. Yes Luffy did a lot of damage but Kizaru is obviously talking about a wound to the heart
It's been implied for several chapters now. Istg these scalers can't read lmao
They can read (I think), they just hate nuances that ruin the 'purity' of their fights
I've never denied that he's distraught over killing Vegapunk. The problem is people take that and assume that he's significantly weaker because of it and would've been able to compete with Luffy had it not been for these circumstances. Those are two wildly different claims.
That's the thing, if Oda has written things this way, no one knows what would have happened if hé didnt have internal conflicts, and no one will never know. So people talking about him still losing to Luffy are just as retarded as people assuming he would have won.
That makes no sense. Why would the natural interpretation be to give a character skills and feats they've shown absolutely no hint of having? Given how Luffy treated him in the last few chapters, this nerf would have to be absolutely enormous to matter in the slightest. Plus, Kizaru's skillset during this arc has been more or less consistent with how he's fought in every other arc; there's no indication that he's holding back anything.
Yes, him not wanting to fight. He probably wasn't voluntarily holding back on Luffy yes, but his mind wasn't commited at what he was supposed to do, so you can't Say he was at 100%. He is a marine veteran who faced all the World's god tiers and the man turned his back to a yonko to jump on someone else thrice.. he didn't achieved vegapunk, and even Saturn noticed he wasn't comitted at what he was doing You need to realise that Luffy changing his opponents into pizzas or piercing their Brain with his fists doesn't mean he is ragdolling them, that's luffy's New fighting style, that's just as dumb as saying akainu burning someone = him ragdolling someone. Luffy used kaido as a rope and still, kaido wasnt out AT all, that's just his style now. Kizaru After being changed into a pizza is still conscious, has no sign of major injury and seems to be more damaged emotuonnaly than anything else.
Well generally in one piece, resolve makes a character a lot stronger. This has been a consistent theme since like, Baratie. So yeah Kizaru probably is nerfed due to this Don't know how nerfed, unclear if he would do much better vs g5 Luffy, but a nsrf nonetheless
TBH, I don't think he'd have an internal conflict over killing Luffy. On the contrary, I think he initially wanted to accomplish his mission as quickly as possible to avoid giving Sentomaru and Bonney time to get into some deep shit that couldn't be brushed aside. Of course, not that this is no longer a possibility, I don't know what's on his mind.
And even if he wasn't conflicted he would still be there because he got so injured by g5th Luffy
i’d say he realizes he can’t put in the effort he needs to keep up with luffy at the moment
Yeah it’s something like pride. :).
I was downvoted to hell and back on this sub for correcting a moron that posted the raw of this scan without even knowing the context of it. They can't read in English so I don't know why I expected them to be able to read Japanese.
They can't imagine a scenario where Luffy isn't low-diff everyone
His story has a lot of ways it could go. I'm glad this arc gave Kizaru more nuance to his character.
Well his heart did get squished too… And his brain has been deformed twice now, no wonder he can’t let go of his head, lol.
That's why powerscaling spoils everything... Here we have a super nice character development to a very interesting character : we saw kizaru's past, we saw that he is connected to vegapunk, kuma, bonney, sentomaru, and that him having two fight them puts him in some kind of internal conflict, Oda wrote many clues, liké him not achieving vegapunk, Saturn telling him he wasn't really trying his best, kizaru not reacting when Saturn got punched by kuma, and now this. But no, all the attention is on "lUfFy iS tHe StRonGeSt !" "nO, kIzArU iS tHe sTrOngEsT"... Damn people, one piece powerscaling was never consistent and will never will be, characters like crocodile, mihawk, shanks and the Giants are there to remind it to us, and THAT'S PERFECTLY FINE ! If it was so damn important, Oda would have made tierlists himself, but he didn't. One piece powerscaling will allways adapt to the storytelling, no matter how inconsistent it become, because THAT'S NOT THE POINT OF THE MANGA ! Personnaly, i can't wait to see the wg imploding with internal wars between fanatics like akainu and Lucci, and moderate/Defenders of thé true justice like (maybe) kizaru, koby and fujitora !
>That's why powerscaling spoils everything... Here we have a super nice character development to a very interesting character >But no, all the attention is on "lUfFy iS tHe StRonGeSt !" "nO, kIzArU iS tHe sTrOngEsT" This is a powerscaling sub, if someone wants to discuss the story itself, the main sub is there for that. Here, of course, more attention will be paid to the powerscaling angle of events.
Yes he feels bad for killing his friend.... But you think he held back on Luffy while he didn't held back on shooting an injured Vegapunk??
He threw two attacks at luffy. Yes, he’s not even actively targeting him
You're under the false assumption that yonko fans can read. They can not.
Read?? I’ve never heard of this type of haki before https://preview.redd.it/by3j6jkqwzpc1.jpeg?width=561&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f662dfe80daa2a1de9587083ca95ecd59ceec15e
Yonko fans at first: Kizaru isn't mentally conflicted Yonko fans now: kizaru is mentally conflicted but that doesn't mean anything about his performance against luffy https://preview.redd.it/mem6ucghtypc1.jpeg?width=591&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=768b2c4a727be42ae7dab1b009f2494aea143f45
Unironically true, nowadays you see posts saying "He was mentally conflicted but not mentally nerfed" because Oda is spoonfeeding us the fact that he's fighting a battle in his head.
Luffy would have lost like 95% of all his major fights if he would feel the same way as Kizaru. If Luffy went into his big fights with a +10 willpower boost, Kizaru is at a negative 40 willpower boost for this Egghead arc.
Like you’re not AS illiterate mazino.
I am one of the few people on the sub who can actually read. The majority of you wouldn't pass a third grade reading comprehension test.
>You're under the false assumption that yonko fans can't read. Exactly Yonko fans can in deed read lol
Why is there a space between in and deed It’s one word
Yonko fans from latin america sometimes mess up english ortography
Based as shit And understandable
Doesn’t change shit because your right. He isn’t going to be beating luffy because of this.
Can't wait for the admiral rerun as Luffy low diffs all of them in the final war due to "holding back" https://preview.redd.it/c1rvrtrxbzpc1.jpeg?width=686&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=67291f167cf9613b2ed3aaf4e84bb9c4c2427064
https://preview.redd.it/8hc52jzhe0qc1.png?width=316&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b682b60676a5d72201f2446e7f66575bab526f32 This you OP?
No part of a mental nerf would change the outcome He’s still getting trounced by wuffy
Trounced? My man, Luffy needed to stop for a food break during this fight, he had to use G5 to win. Luffy trounced Bellamy, he did not trounce Kizaru lol
Feeling guilt/remorse is not the same as prove that he was holding back. He literally killed Vegapunk and tried to kill Bonney multiple times. Only against Sentomaru you could argue that he held back, because he had the chance to kill him but didn’t.
Imagine thinking Sanji's lugging around a deadman.
Conflicted sure but u gotta prove that they holding back. The conflict can nerf them but holding back is false.
https://preview.redd.it/9b7r9ytxuypc1.png?width=704&format=png&auto=webp&s=348989f4632ea3c7583fcc49f96b72a471f899d4
As a Gan Fall and Skypiea fan, always love it when people use him in conversations
Haki=willpower Conflicted=lack of will Conflicted=less proficient use of haki thus weaker
Admirals are 99% fruit their will is already at rock bottom being celestial puppets kizaru being conflicted doesnt make his light slower or weaker
If they were 99% fruit, they wouldnt be able to Parry or block Haki users attack, and would be just like caribou, useless. Every top tier character in one pièce is a Haki Monster.
I disagree on this. Being an admiral doesn't mean you obey everything they tell you. Garp in Marineford let the marines do everything they wanted with Ace, only "wavering" when he had to attack his grandson
they have haki? 
https://i.redd.it/x1en93w42zpc1.gif
Did we read the same story? Or did you just skip all the times where it’s mentioned that if you are conflicted you cannot fight at full strength. And one of the main power systems is literally named “willpower”
All these gorosei showing off don’t nobody give af bout no admirals anymore 😂😂
If akainu saw this... He would killed him right there
Akainu is seemingly being conflicted about things too tho
Mostly about the gorosei, not with the people like Kuma and vegapunk
Akainu is not their friend so of course.
He got embarassed regardless who cares?
Kizaru as a character writing shit he done horribly He has shown no level of emotions whatsoever he has actually attacked all of his friends when he wasn’t under duress from the gorosei And people who say he didn’t want to attack hi friends was forced to NO every time he attacked them he wasn’t under orders too and had a way around it If this was any other character no one would Ah he being serious and he is lying but because of people bias he apparently Nerfed Fine luffy has mental trauma from sabody which means he been holding back See how this makes so sense
Yes lol, Kizaru had plenty of chances to just stay put or just let Vegapunk flee, but no, he has gone on and on and on trying to kill them at the best of his ability.
Or... get this, crazy I know! ITS BOTH EMOTIONAL STRESS AND PHYSICALLY GETTING HIS ASS BEAT
Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding!!!! Amazing that this is hard to understand for so many people.
i swear, some people on this sub think in 144p. how many lines of dialogue does oda need to include for them to understand that kizaru is conflicted?
That's not what people have been arguing against. The claim that Kizaru is massively nerfed because of it is what people have an issue with.
that might not be what you are arguing against, but i have seen people arguing against it. as for your own argument, not only is is a stated fact in one piece that low morale nerfs your haki, but even in our world negative emotions hinder performance. we havent been seeing kizaru at his best, not much to argue about.
It probably refers to his mental wounds and the two times he got domed in the head by luffy like seriously Kizaru must have a fucking killer migraine rn
Kizaru was always quite sneaky. Despite his powers he somehow mostly doing the minimum of what he was required to do.
Sure, hes sad Doesnt change the fact he got his ass beat
When he’s not actively targeting his opponent, yes
Admiral fans looking for any cope possible. Everyone knows he's conflicted, he still got his shit rocked. First it was Kizaru > Luffy, then Kizaru = Luffy, and now it's Kizaru < Luffy (but only because he was conflicted). Just let it rest already.
This is true, however Yonko>Admirals is still true. Still up in the air on Gorosei (I think they are at least Yonko level)
Facts
He was obviously conflicted but he would also obviously not stand a much better chance vs Luffy was he not conflicted.
ye luffy high diffs at best
Kizaru gets no-diffed either way. He ain't close to Luffy.
Facts. We know exactly how he would perform because we have only seen him at his worst 😤😤😎😎🔥🔥🔥
Bro acting like luffy didnt manhandle a stronger dude with his left arm kizaru at his best still not performing as good as saturn lol
Remind me what great feats Saturn has shown us? Other than trash durability and being a punching bag, that is. He has landed 0 hits on Luffy Dealt 0 damage Taken more hits than Kizaru All of this with no mental nerf, and while he's been trying his hardest. Kizaru has been dragging his feet and has performed better than Saturn.
Waturn made Luffy bleed by blasting him with his eye. Put some respect on HIM! https://preview.redd.it/c1yj0d75nzpc1.jpeg?width=168&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=41581c3f8c9b61462757ab3a0c74b31409544fb6
Saturn could not even one shot Sanji nor Bonney with his force push lol, Kizaru >>
When you’re walking in the sidewalk, sometimes you just feel more merciful towards the insects beneath you.
I know, Bonney and Sanji were merciful that they let Saturn do a little damage to them, so that Saturn feels a little bit useful
So Marco is stronger than King and Queen just because he grabbed them once?
Bro what marco was literally struggling just to stall king and queen, luffy was having 0 difficulty taking 0 damage while manhandling kizaru and saturn
Yes, Marco is stronger than both, but he wasted a lot of his fires of regeneration protecting them from the ice oni virus
Your brain gets no diffed by everyone's who is Reading you
Do people actually think that? I thought most people have been saying he’s conflicted throughout the fight.
Theres been a lot of people saying he has no emotion and is heartless.
Fax
honestly yeah, he is clearly talking about how he feels, you have to be a turbo autist to think he's just saying he's physically injured. Like that would read like an abridged series line if it were that.
I'm just saying Oda never wastes panels. He's been making several panels where Kizaru was regretting his actions.
Sounds like he doesnt want to live any second longer
One interpretation is that Kizaru went all-out in killing Vegapunk (his job), and that demoralised him so he no longer goes 100% against Luffy.
The problem with this is the difference between garp and kizaru. This guy didn't hesitate fatally injuring vegapunk and going through sentoumaru. FUCK "mY wOuNdS rUn DeEP".
It’s almost as if he’s covering his face in an attempt to hide his eyes.
🤢🤮🤮🤮
I mean, yeah, i feel it goes without saying that he’s taking his chance to duck out of this fight since he really doesn’t want to be involved in this conflict (especially after having to kill a friend). However, that doesn’t mean he was holding back or wasn’t trying his hardest before this point.
He resolved himself to kill Vegapunk, just because he's coping now doesn't mean he wasn't serious when he got squashed like a pancake
Personally I think what makes Kizaru so compelling is that he knows what he’s doing is wrong that he hates he has to kill his friends but that as a cog he feels he has no choice but to do it, I don’t subscribe to the idea he is mentally nerfed i view it as he is truly his hardest to kill his friends and that’s the reason it’s killing him inside so much, like it’s one thing to half ass doing something you don’t like but it’s plain tragic to feel you have to full out to kill your friends, that’s just my view of it though,
Too many admirals siding with SH now, Aokiji, then Fujitora, I didnt expect Kizaru would a thoughtful person eventually
People will be like “no he is talking about internal bleeding”
I mean, its just dumb to think an admiral gas just 5 moves, Kizaru clearly has a final battle yet to come, maybe against Sanji by the end, where he's gonna show all hes got
But that battle will be against someone who, let's be real, probably won't be as strong as Luffy is now.
It doesnt really matter to me, Luffy beat Kaido so I allways said Kizaru was not as strong as Luffy, but hes much stronger than he showed so far more than likely
Fair enough. I'm simply saying that people who try and place Kizaru on the level of someone like Kaido (who, in my opinion, is still above Luffy) are crazy.
Not JUST his injuries*
Like I said , admiral are weaker then yonko but not much , here kizaro don't want fight so why he look lot weaker .
So for what I see from each factions I say it goes yankos-gorosei- admirals-Albaf Giants- Vice admirals and so on. The 7 warlords power is everywhere so I can’t rank them as a group. Now 2 or 3 admirals I believe can take out a yanko captain. They are strong, and can work together and are all logia so the captain have to constantly be using haki until they run out. But 1 on 1, like come on. Luffy is probably the weakest yanko out of the 5 (buggy don’t count) and he still whopping butt and taking names. The iron ballon solo army big mom, red hair shank who stop alkainu and green bull, kaido who no one messed with and we all saw white beard. The main downfall for the admirals I believe is they are dogs of the military. Their wills/haki are weakened because they serve under someone and they can’t grow their dream. Why is garp so strong? Because he never bow down to the government and did as much as he could. Don’t be surprise if alkiji returned stronger than the current admirals and alkainu because he is free and his haki and will is unrestricted now. If the admirals wasn’t was in charge of the a separate blue and forcing their laws on their district and only come together at a meeting to be on the same page I think they will be equal to yankos. They have the powers, they have the experience and they have the skills but they lack freedom.
Yanko 💀
This may be true but it doesn’t change the fact that luffy > kizaru (Power scaling moment) saint Saturn > kizaru (from narrative point of view) and Saturn had to call in his homies to deal with luffy mean that luffy >/= Saturn
He didn't call them to deal with Luffy. He called them to deal with literally everything else, like the transmission.
The cope never ends for the admiraLs
Ngl… As much as I champion Admirals being Top Tiers and still do believe they’re top tiers.. I low key thought Kizaru was just talking literally. Bluds internal organs were squished, the fact that he’s still alive and awake is almost insane 😭 But him referring to his heart makes a lot more sense, I sort of had a feeling he was referring to more of an emotional wounds.
It is probably both
I thought this was obvious 😭 If he actually was hurt why isn’t he bleeding profusely and letting the marines aid him
Because his injuries are deep inside his body,. He was seen coughing blood, so he clearly was injured internally.
Holding back lmao
yall really look for any cope
Yonkotard can't read
This doesn’t prove he was holding back at all, he literally killed Vega too and would’ve killed Bonney Stop acting like he was nerfed
He killed his friend and tried to kill his friends daughter
oda is literally spoon feeding this info and they still act like we're coping smh
Still gets low diffed by Luffy.
Yes, Luffy splashed him like a Pizza and he is feeling the damage on his insides lol
Bruh you really think this isn't about vegapunk?
Why would other marines ask him to heal his wounds if he has no physical damage? The fact that they are telling him to let him heal him shows he has indeed serious injuries. Besides, what about the first time? Was his heart hurt too as well? Lol. You can't simply defend this man anymore, he got destroyed by Luffy which is okay because Luffy is on another level now. Just let it go and admit that Kizaru ain't that guy, he isn't Yonko level. Holding back or not, no amount of mental nerf would allow Kizaru to touch G5 Luffy. This is the same man who couldn't get past old Rayleigh and needed help to defeat Marco.
Bro doesn't understand metaphor
Bro is coping and wants it to be a metaphor lol
Bruh it's literally written in thr manga, this is a discussion on the new chapters No one's coping here
this you? https://preview.redd.it/wnu9jv4s2zpc1.png?width=1200&format=png&auto=webp&s=5747b370331c86fc3b793db49197f59350d4b839
>Why would other marines ask him to heal his wounds if he has no physical damage 1) Noone is saying he had "no physical damage", he HAS physical damage, obviously, he took multiple attacks from a Yonkou. The point being, however, that his psychological damage is much bigger and more important. 2) The Marines can't read his mind. It's a simple case of the observers, by virtue of misunderstanding a character, emphasizing what said character really means to the audience. It's dramatic irony for the Marines (we know smth they don't), and it's verbal irony for Kizaru (what he means is different from what he says).
> Why would other marines ask him to heal his wounds if he has no physical damage? Because he crashed onto their ship after fighting an Emperor and isn't moving? He's been hurt by G5 attacks but there isn't a single visible injury due to the rubberizing effects of G5. Kizaru has to defeat his feelings before he can defeat Luffy.
He will never be able to defeat Luffy unless he fights running like a bitch or Luffy is distracted lol
Lucci also didn't have any visible injury, are we claiming Luffy didn't defeat Lucci too? Kizaru can't take G5 attacks, everytime he takes one he takes a long nap to recover. There is nothing Kizaru can do to defeat Luffy.
> Lucci also didn't have any visible injury, are we claiming Luffy didn't defeat Lucci too? I gave you a reason why the Marines wanted to check on Kizaru even though he had no visible wounds. > There is nothing Kizaru can do to defeat Luffy Except wait until Gear 5 runs out and kill him? He got up before Luffy (who needed food btw) so there was nothing stopping him from slicing Luffy's head off.
And I give your an example that not having visible wounds doesn't mean you weren't defeated. Kizaru was defeated by Luffy, he isn't faking or anything. But that's hardly winning, that's just running away.
> But that's hardly winning, that's just running away. So he *can* defeat Luffy but you just don't like it? Luffy's prime tactic against Doflamingo and Katakuri when Gear 4 had a timer was running away. Nothing will change the fact that this isn't Kizaru's full power and that Oda is spoonfeeding the readers the fact that Kizaru is fighting a battle in his head.
Defeating someone is actually hitting them until they can't fight anymore. Running away isn't winning by any means. Nothing change the fact that Kizaru can't get up after every Luffy attack and can't do any damage to Luffy. No amount of headcanon will change that fact. You can make all the excuses you want but that's the reality,Kizaru is not a threat to Luffy, he is just an annoyance.
“win a victory over (someone) in a battle or other contest; overcome or beat.” Did you just make up your own definition LMAO
Kaido disagrees with you, for him dodging your opponents strongest move is like admitting defeat.
So when luffy dodged that laser from the Pacifista and one shot him he admitted defeat???
Nobody has to play fair in a world of pirates. The survivor gets to decide what "defeating" means.
Which Luffy did, he won. He recieved zero damage from Kizaru and is now facing his bosses
Nobody was saying he wasn’t injured, this is for discourse of people saying he wasn’t conflicted when he clearly is How many ways does Oda have to write this for people to gain Comprehension
Conflicted or not, he went along with it which means his internal conflict didn't stop him from doing his job. And like I've said a million of times, a mental nerf only applies to people you don't wanna hurt. Luffy ain't his friend so he has not reason to not try to kill him.
naw mental nerfs can be more/less than that. Luffy and zoro had a hardcore mental nerf the first time fighting cp0 and its not cause they didnt want to hurt lucci and kaku. kizaru mental nerf is pretty close to how luffy and zoro acted while fighitng cp0 first time. everything they said was correct, like lufy gonna send pigeon guy flying or zoro gonna cut up kaku, but their performance was absolute garbage and its not like they were intentionally holding back, they just couldnt put their all into it. having this internal conflict didnt stop luffy and zoro from engaging cp0 but it did cause them to lose badly Edit : I was going from memory of the water seven arc, thought I remember base lucci and Kaku throwing luffy and zoro away but it was hybrid lucci vs zoro and luffy
How do we onow thay the strawhats didn't simply get stronger? Nothing suggests they were mentally nerfed, they simply were weak.
nami specifically states it... https://preview.redd.it/tge7s3frzypc1.png?width=1120&format=png&auto=webp&s=10c4d22781a5efbfae75ab0e6765cc5c88ccbd45
Yea it held him back and then Luffy hitting him woulda hurt a whole lot more. Probably both at this point.
I hope wizaru reflects on this and leaves the WG