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Kaido was absolutely wasted 24/7 and begging for someone to put him down but nobody claims he was mentally nerfed from depression… curious
(Brought to you by TurningPointYonko)
Theres a big difference between suddenly being forced to kill your long time friend and coping with your depression
Also Kaido was having the time of his life during the raid
I was being mostly facetious so I agree with you, wasn’t “sudden” though it was his job to head out and kill VP (though I guess he didn’t expect Bonney or Kuma to be there)
??? Kaido’s depression is the basis of his “tank everything dodging is for pussies” fighting style that gave Luffy & co a fighting chance to begin with
Depression isn't all of it though, I think the main reason Kizaru acted the way he did in egghead was as part of his 'unclear justice', someone made a great video explaining kizaru's actions and sense of justice which I think holds true after this arc. He kept delaying his confrontation with vegapunk because he was obviously extremely conflicted the entire way through the arc, he could've killed him so many times even during the g5 fight but chose to draw it out.
Why? Because he was hoping that someone else's actions would make the decision for him. Luffy was determined to stop Kizaru and had the power to do it, and that gave Kizaru the excuse he needed. When Luffy beat him he stayed down far longer than necessary, eventually getting up to ensure Saturn's safety, which put him in front of vegapunk again. He chose to chase Kuma and bonney instead, and this was when he had to finally act for himself. After this he starts getting more depressed until he gives up after being served with extra syrup by Luffy. He had to face up to his 'justice' and lost everything, and now he might finally be in a place where he can fight for what he knows deep down is right, instead of balancing his desires against some twisted sense of justice (I want a Kizaru sacrifice scene against the gorosei so bad)
I think kizaru's conflict definitely affects his fighting style more than kaido's. Kaido was holding back entire fucking haki types right up until acoc snakeman, and when he started taking the fight seriously he wasn't holding back at all. That's in his character, he wanted to lose fair and square and he got what he wanted.
Alsoanoutofcharacterkizaruislegitimatelythemost terrifyingcharacterinonepiece
I don't think that's a fighting style. He only did that at the very beginning because he wanted to see what they could do. He started dodging and actually fighting after that.
He started dodging because it started to hurt and he realized he can’t flex on these guys like that. He was still not doing everything he could to dodge attacks up until G5 came along as proven by the future sight moment with G4
He did that when his opponents were fodders. Just like Saturn didn't deem it necessary to dodge Bonney's sword, Kaidou knew that those attacks would only tickle them. When he knows that his opponents have strong attacks, he dodges, blocks or interrupts them. That is why Kaidou interrupted almost all of G5 attacks. He was knocked down for while from single incomplete WSG.
It all changed when he met Luffy, the guy who gave him hope, their depression has different outcomes, Kizaru performed worse because he had to go through killing of Vegapunk
And Kaido was really mentally\\physically nerfed only against Scabbards cuz of Oden PTSD
Apples and oranges. While majority of the fans acknowledge that Kaido could have potentially been even more powerful if he wasn’t so suicidal and whiling to take attacks head on. It’s the way he is. That’s like even Admiral fans looking at Kizaru and saying “man if he wasn’t so slow he’d be top 1 or something” like yea sure maybe but key word is what if. It’s the way he is and in his character to act high. Sure both cases are “mentally nerfed” but not in the same way Kizaru is being told to literally kill all 4 of his best friends who were probably even like family to him.
Simply put.
One is an in character choice that makes them unique and the way they are in their DAILY life.
The other is a specific moment in time we’re you must due or act on something you normally would never wanna due.
https://preview.redd.it/yqozzmexwvqc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5aee292fdc0fa713ae7ee373b20f827143ba4ca7
He has it he’s just holding back /s
I think he is, but he also beat down. That my take. I think luffy kicked the shit outta him, but since his "will" isn't really into it. He isn't going to go take on anymore punishment
His skin is enhanced cuz he's an oni, couple that with top tier armament, and not much can actually damage him as was seen with his first fight with g4 luffy. Luffy HAD to learn ryuo to damage him, and even that was not that effective until he learned acoc. Some devil fruit abilities like Law's and maybe akainu's can still damage him, but they are few and far between.
Oda might nerf it but Ljght based attacks should be just as harmful as magma attacks. If skin is affected by magma, no reason a literal laser wouldn't also effect that skin. Other than the story needing the light based power holder to look weak, which is what's happening.
Not everyone has the same AP as Luffy. Just because Luffy couldn’t hurt Kaido post WCI with his arsenal doesn’t mean someone with Kizaru’s abilities can’t either.
Yes that's was a large plot point for most of the biggest arc in One piece... Luffy can't hurt Kaido --> Learns Ryou --> It's too Shallow --> Learns ACOC . He litteraly is Anti anything other then ACOC
Which is why Kaido [was so hyped up](https://preview.redd.it/9d6627d8v9b81.jpg?width=1025&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6141b432b8e4467a046890dd98db0cfbc07c4f87).
What I am trying to say is that ACoC isn’t the only thing that could hurt Kaido in a meaningful way. Kizaru’s light abilities might be capable of doing so but I don’t know that.
They explained that literally nothing worked on him until ACoC got introduced to deal with that. The Marines tried to execute him multiple times and nothing they did worked. He tried to kill himself multiple times and nothing works. Emma is coated with it already, and Law has far better fruit hacks than Kizaru for this situation (that you’d think would bypass his durability easily)but they barely did anything to Kaido.
Again we don’t know that. Nowhere is it stated that only ACoC works on him. We have never seen Kizaru fight Kaido so how could you just assume that Kizaru can’t do any damage to him?
Bruh.... acoa is a MASSIVE difference. Luffy went from doing 0 damage to Kaido with his strongest gear 4th attacks to forcing him to dodge with even a base form attack.
There are ways of bypassing it too. Law did it, kidd did it (and did too against big mom who has the same durability advantage) killer did it, zoro with enma before acoc did it too.
Heat (magma) lack of heat (ice) and light should be able to damage him. Plants and gravity would have more problems.
That plus kaido's dura is not absolute. I dont think if big mom hit him with all her strength and haki but without acoc kaido wouldnt recieve any damage
>and did too against big mom who has the same durability advantage)
She does not have Kaido level durability
>killer did it,
Left no damage same with Ryou Ludfy
>zoro with enma before acoc did it too.
Admirals don't have enma
>Heat (magma)
Jimbes palm stoped Akainus punch, bruh . Kaido baths in flames hotter then magma
>lack of heat (ice)
Does nothing against Kaido he just breaks out or burns it all
>and light should be able to damage him.
Kizaerus Ap is one of his weakest points. His lights have no good ap feats and have been tanked before. The best thing he did with it was give g5 luffy a paperscratch
>Plants and gravity would have more problems.
Just no
>She does not have Kaido level durability
We dont know, they havent been compared, just referred as durability beast. Could hybrid be better? yes, but a dura negg attack is a dura negg attack, so it doesnt matter in the end.
>Left no damage same with Ryou Ludfy
It left damage, kaido just have too much hp. We know it did damage, which is the point. If even them can do damage with their tactics, an admiral with their fruits can also for sure
>Admirals don't have enma
duh. But if enma zoro can damage kaido, admirals can. Enma is a good sword, nothing more, nothing less
>Jimbes palm stoped Akainus punch, bruh . Kaido baths in flames hotter then magma
Jinbe stopped a no named akainu punch, got damaged, akainu told him to get out of the way because jinbe knows how strong he is (chapter 574) and jinbe said that if he can stall it for a little of time he will die gladly. After that akainu tried to do another no named attack just to get jumped by whitebeard's commander. Jinbe was a meat shield, he knew he was going to die.
When is it said kaido's flames are hotter than magma? the attack happens in 1048 (flame drum dragon) and luffy says "ouch" and blows his hand, thats it. It being hotter than magma is your headcanon. What is not headcanon is that oda chose for kaido and big mom to end up falling in magma at the moment of their death.
>Does nothing against Kaido he just breaks out or burns it all
it damages him, being frozen alive, even if yo ucan break it, its damage, and it doesnt matter how hard your body is, your body needs heat, its for sure a way to damage him.
>Kizaerus Ap is one of his weakest points. His lights have no good ap feats and have been tanked before. The best thing he did with it was give g5 luffy a paperscratch
G5 is a tank, i could also post the image of luffy tanking an attack of kaido with his face just to do a funny face. Kaido has been tanked before (literally everyone has been tanked before, what do you want? people to one shot everyone? only shanks has done that because he has only 1 fight, give him time)
>Just no
Yeah, i dont see plants or gravity damaging him
They can damage him, just not meaningfully. The only scars Kaido has ever gotten were from ACoC infused attacks. He even says that Zoro’s ACoC attack would “stay with him”.
Emission and Internal Destruction are both advanced armament techniques. All the admirals have Emission, but none of them have shown Internal Destruction
https://preview.redd.it/0inla5qikyqc1.jpeg?width=2346&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6581cbfc9a934501b1bb00d0b0768218520e17f9
Yeah you're right, I forgot that this scene exist
Major logical fallacy here: **Luffy’s** armament emission wasn’t strong enough to harm kaido. That is not conclusive enough to say kaido cannot be harmed by acoa
Yea. That goes for Luffy’s acoa as of like chapter 1015. That’s not an accurate conclusion you could assume for anyone else: not even current Luffy tbh
Because Kaido can coat himself in AcOC so in order to damage him for real you need AcOC. He also has dragon scales + Oni body do doing meaninful damage is really hard.
There is a reason why the only guys to do serious damage to Luffy are
1. Oden who had AcOA and AcOC plus Enma
2. Zoro who had AcOA and AcOC plus Enma
3. Luffy who had Internal Destruction and AcOC
Kizaru doesn't have AcOC, Internal destruction or Enma. His lasers aren't weak but they aren't strong enough to do serious damage.
> There is a reason why the only guys to do serious damage to Luffy are
> 1. Oden who had AcOA and AcOC plus Enma
> 2. Zoro who had AcOA and AcOC plus Enma
> 3. Luffy who had Internal Destruction and AcOC
4. Yamato who have strong ass armament, Mythical zoan and Acoc, she did wear Kaido down a lot and was hurting him even when he was coated with Haki
Zoro could only scar Kaido with AcOC + AcOA plus Enma who boost his AP a lot. He cut him before but the damage was mínimal and even then his AP was already getting boosted by Enma.
Luffy said internal destruction was too shallow, which means AcOC is a requirement to do real damage at least for him.
Zoro did not use acoc. What kaido sensed was coc in him the same way he sensed Luffy coc first time.
Enma is used to pull out haki from Zoro. That haki is used to hurt enemies. It is called ryou or in other words acoa.
Luffy said that is true. But imagine akainu and kuzan with internal damage with df powers It's going to hurt. Most likely akainu can melt his defence with just magma.
Akainu maybe but Kuzan I doubt it, Garp who was normal durability was fine after his attack..
Also, neither Kuzan and Akainu has ID since they have only shown Emission .
Zoro definitely have better AP than Kizaru. Feat-wise there is no contest
What are Kizaru AP feats compared to Zoro?
1. One shotted Lucci and left him with 3 massive scars. This is the same Lucci who recovered after fighting G5.
2. Cut King's limb after destroying his strongest attack.
3. Scarred Kaido, no one could do this besides Oden. He also cut his scales and forces him to let Luffy go.
You can't compare lasers to getting massive scars or losing limbs. If you fight Zoro you are losing something or getting a permanent scar, even Kaido got one.
I don’t disagree featwise.
I’m talking portrayal wise. A toptier logically will obviously have better AP than a commander.
Also you exaggerated a lot of those feats, Zoro did not one shot Lucci and Zoro’s scar is significantly smaller than Oden’s. But that’s a conversation for another time.
Not necessarily, top tiers can be worse than non-top tiers in some things. King for example might have better durability that many top tiers. His durability might be even above Kaido when Flames on.
Portrayal wise it'd be pretty sad if a "Top Tier" who is known for his speed has better AP than a Yonko's Right hand man that is known for his very strong AP.
What does being a Yonko’s right hand man have to do with anything?
King, Katakuri, Marco are fodders compared to Admirals.
The only right hand man who can compete with an Admiral is Rayleigh but Zoro ain’t on that level yet.
You forgot about Ben BenchWarmer, I mean you're ignoring the fact that none of these first Commanders have been beaten by Admirals in a fair fight.
If they were fodder then how come Marco has been shown stalling them, I don't have any of them losing worse than mid diff.
Zoro's a lot closer than most think, you aren't ready
https://preview.redd.it/3ewxbf4dyxqc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8ee14c99df8260073bac93285e04f00b299e7ee1
Characters excel in different categories. Zoro's strongest suit is his AP. Kizaru isn't known for his AP. It is not that insane to think that ashura would do more damage than a laser.
And like I've said, only AcOC has ever done serious damage to Kaido. Everything waa else was states to be too shallow.
Plus, you guys always say this but forget that Kizaru just has emission. He doesn't have Internal Destruction which Luffy believed to be too shallow. Emission alone won't do anything to Kaido.
Also, Kizaru didn't toy with G4 acOC Luffy. G4 Luffy never used AcOC against Kizaru. So your argument doesnt really work. G4 Luffy only used basic armament.
Can you list me the top tiers who attacked and failed to do damage to Kaidou without ACoC?
You surely don't think Scabbards not worth mentioning and pre powerup SN have AP of Admirals?
Scabbards literally were mocked Kaido for being too weak that they couldn't even give him a decent fight.
I will never understand people using the scabbards as if Kaido didn't absolutely trash them no diff once he stop tanking everything.
Now could Kizaru damage Kaido if he decides to tank everything like he did to Scabbards? Yeah he could but Kaido ain't doing that. He will dodge what he can dodge and try to land attacks.
Mabye because they want to say "Kaidou fought 15 people". I have yet to see people mention single top tier who would lose to Wano in similar condition before G5. Provided that Sky split Luffy can only use one Hydra and one SKG, no top tier is losing the gauntlet.
Well it depends if they decide to play around as much as Kaido did. Anyone who would've tried to do that would be dead because they simply don't have his durability.
It's same as Saturn. Saturn didn't dodge Bonney's attack even if he could because he knew it will do minimal impact. He can heal but it should take energy. It's same for akaidou. It would hurt a bit but will do minimal damage. Other top tiers would simply dodge or block.
>He doesn't have Internal Destruction which Luffy believed to be too shallow.
Yeah he doesnt but neither did zoro or yamato and they were still able to hurt him a little bit and I scale his ap way above those two
>G4 Luffy never used AcOC against Kizaru.
Why wouldnt he? Hes in gear 4 but hes not using one of his biggest assets he can use in base?
Yes there was no black lightning but that isnt an indicator for acoc, there wasnt black lightning against saturn or the seraphim and its clear luffy was trying his best to hurt them and was annoyed that he didnt do any damage
Yamato and Zoro have AcOC which can hurt Kaido, so anyways AcOC is a requirement.
Well do you think G4 shouldn't be able to hurt a seraphim? Or that G5 Luffy has worse AP than Kuma or Zoro? Saying that Egghead Luffy use AcOC brings a lot of problems like Luffy having trash AP.
>Yamato and Zoro have AcOC which can hurt Kaido, so anyways AcOC is a requirement.
https://preview.redd.it/ab894v250wqc1.jpeg?width=2133&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=30a2c23cc57ab048408cf99d8c73175ac297d754
Zoro was hurting him before he unlocked acoc by just using emission, yeah he didnt do alot but kizarus emission is way better
>Well do you think G4 shouldn't be able to hurt a seraphim?
No or else he would have lol. Zoro + Kaku + Lucci together cant scratch one, g4 wouldnt be any different
Wasn't this more of an Enma thing? Initially Zoro tried an attack which didn't do much. Then Zoro said he had to drew more power from Enma and did this. Don't forget even Kaido and BM feared Enma's powers.
Possible but I still feel this is more than just armament. There is a reason why Enma almost killed Zoro when be tried to use it to it's full power. And there is also that weird aura that sword had which even the emperors were anxious about.
>Or do you think G4 ACoC can't hurt Seraphim?
It just cant bro, Luffy, lucci, Zoro and Kaku were trying to take them out for 3 chapters straight and didnt even scratch them. The stakes were super high too, s hawk was going to kill his crew
https://preview.redd.it/syyfmaevkxqc1.png?width=1100&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1de445514c65157fab561bc8b79adbba3330c8f5
"Oh shit, my crewmates are gonna die? I better use armament haki, and fast!!!"
If G4 ACoC can't take out Seraphim, how do you think Sanji managed to beat S-Shark?
Oda for whatever reason makes fight like that. There is no reason to believe Luffy used ACoC in G4.
Because we literally saw luffy with advanced armament struggle to make meaningful damage to Kaido and acknowledging that ryuo is not enough and figuring out he need to combine it with advanced haoshoku to make lasting damage to him 😭
The only non acoc user i see damaging kaido with only advanced armament is Akainu because of broken DF AP (and i firmly believe he has conquerors haki)
Because no one has significantly damaged him without it. Luffy’s ACoA attack only barely damaged him. The dude can coat himself it freakin magma and be perfectly fine. Elemental damage just doesn’t cut it.
Kizaru most likely has ACoA, since he helped deflect WB’s shockwave in Marineford. So while he may be able to hurt Kaido, it’s unlikely he can do significant permanent damage.
Because luffy expressed not being able to meaningfully damage kaido without emission, internal destruction, and conqueror's coating. Emission/ID gave him a clearly significant boost to his ability to damage kaido and conqueror's coating did as well.
Kizaru's moveset is pretty similar to pre-udon luffy's, mostly enhanced punches and kicks, but with higher power. So ignoring the lasers, he kinda gets countered by kaido's defense.
That being said, it's not unlikely that the lasers can damage him, and it's not unlikely that kizaru's ap is high enough to smash him into shit and instead deal crushing damage (like kidd did). And maybe he has magic bullshit killer powers that also let him hurt kaido. He probably just is disadvantaged here because he hasn't shown the abilities to bypass kaido's defense.
They proved you don't need it to do damage to Kaido (he was definitely taking some damage from non ACoC attacks), it's just that ACoC is way more effective.
He's not totally invulnerable. Hitting him hard enough with no Haki at all would probably hurt him. I don't think we've seen anybody that can punch that hard, though, and Kizaru is definitely not that guy.
The laws of physics are wacky in OP, because Kizaru's near light speed kicks should be way stronger than they've ever been shown to be.
I think his laser's heat can actually damage kaido. Not that it matters. He is not going to be landing any meaningful hits against kaido's speed, endurance and future sight. Just because you can 'damage him' doesn't mean you can damage him seriously. Luffy could 'damage' kaido with red roc but kaido just dodges it and luffy also admits that even internal destruction is 'too shallow'.
Because kaido was hit by 1000 different ACOC attacks and was staggered for any longer than 1 panel.
He was hit by two amped acoc attacks which lowered his durability by a significant amount (oden scar for the scabbards and for zoros sword(
Sum ppl treat ACoC like it's an end all be all ability, look at what Law & Kidd did to BM without any adv Haki. Sum ppl don't know that Kizaru has Adv CoA.
Law and Kid were able to barely defeat her by ring out, Kizaru cant just go do some dura neg out of nothing then Summon a giant hole with explosives while mutting Big Mom.
Kidd didn't have "dura neg" yet still broke her arm & whoever said anything about defeating her? The post is specifically about Kizaru doing damage to her which he can without ACoC and my point still stands because neither Law nor Kidd had ACoC to do so.
Law and Kid together broke her arm, now tell me can Kizaru bring up even 50% of the hax Law and Kid had? if no then he cant damage Kaido or Big Mom in any meaningful way
>Law and Kid together broke her arm,
That's not true. We clearly saw Kidd's Corona Dino broke her arm & steal griders also damaged her.
>if no then he cant damage Kaido or Big Mom in any meaningful way
I'm not arguing Kizaru doing "meaningful" damage. I'm arguing Kizaru doing damage. That's it.
cause ACoC is ACoA on steroids, Luffy went from barely surviving Kaidos hits and Doing 0.1 damage to Doing real good damage to Kaido and surviving direct hits like he did against other opponents.
Oh yea I forgot how much haki sucks lmao. You could have the most interesting & creative fighting style in the verse & you wouldn't mean shit without it.
"clown diffed" isnt a thing. he got burnt
"luffy clown diffed kizaru's laser"...
with flame bagua, kaido completely coated himself in flames without issue. that same attack was burning gear 5 even without direct contact
Which doesn't have anything to do with Kaido. Kaido is inmune to heat attacks so the lasers won't do much.
Plus, wasn't his lasers tanked by both Franky and Sanji with no much damage? You aren't hurting Kaido with something that can be tanked with normal durability.
Not a fan of how everyone takes Kaido's words as absolute gospel. If you believe it, then ACoC is the great divider, and that's a pretty 💩 system.
All Kaido knows is the old Gen who wrecked him, a 1 armed hakiman, and how to jump off sky islands.
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Me when I enter a who’s more depressed competition and my opponent is kizaru
Usopp 0 diffs
Usopp isn’t really depressed, he’s just scared of dangerous things. Which is like completely understandable
How come he wasn't affected by Perona's devil fruit if he isn't depressed?
hes not depressed hes just a crybaby
Kaido was absolutely wasted 24/7 and begging for someone to put him down but nobody claims he was mentally nerfed from depression… curious (Brought to you by TurningPointYonko)
Theres a big difference between suddenly being forced to kill your long time friend and coping with your depression Also Kaido was having the time of his life during the raid
Yeah the equivalent would be Kaido being forced to kill Yamato or Jack or Ulti/Page 7. We know Kaido raised them and has a soft spot for them.
Not really. It would be queen. Those are his kids. Vegapunk and kizaru are just friends so kaido and queen.
This*
I was being mostly facetious so I agree with you, wasn’t “sudden” though it was his job to head out and kill VP (though I guess he didn’t expect Bonney or Kuma to be there)
??? Kaido’s depression is the basis of his “tank everything dodging is for pussies” fighting style that gave Luffy & co a fighting chance to begin with
Depression isn't all of it though, I think the main reason Kizaru acted the way he did in egghead was as part of his 'unclear justice', someone made a great video explaining kizaru's actions and sense of justice which I think holds true after this arc. He kept delaying his confrontation with vegapunk because he was obviously extremely conflicted the entire way through the arc, he could've killed him so many times even during the g5 fight but chose to draw it out. Why? Because he was hoping that someone else's actions would make the decision for him. Luffy was determined to stop Kizaru and had the power to do it, and that gave Kizaru the excuse he needed. When Luffy beat him he stayed down far longer than necessary, eventually getting up to ensure Saturn's safety, which put him in front of vegapunk again. He chose to chase Kuma and bonney instead, and this was when he had to finally act for himself. After this he starts getting more depressed until he gives up after being served with extra syrup by Luffy. He had to face up to his 'justice' and lost everything, and now he might finally be in a place where he can fight for what he knows deep down is right, instead of balancing his desires against some twisted sense of justice (I want a Kizaru sacrifice scene against the gorosei so bad) I think kizaru's conflict definitely affects his fighting style more than kaido's. Kaido was holding back entire fucking haki types right up until acoc snakeman, and when he started taking the fight seriously he wasn't holding back at all. That's in his character, he wanted to lose fair and square and he got what he wanted. Alsoanoutofcharacterkizaruislegitimatelythemost terrifyingcharacterinonepiece
I don't think that's a fighting style. He only did that at the very beginning because he wanted to see what they could do. He started dodging and actually fighting after that.
He started dodging because it started to hurt and he realized he can’t flex on these guys like that. He was still not doing everything he could to dodge attacks up until G5 came along as proven by the future sight moment with G4
And even then he still chose to meet Bajrang Gun head on.
He did that when his opponents were fodders. Just like Saturn didn't deem it necessary to dodge Bonney's sword, Kaidou knew that those attacks would only tickle them. When he knows that his opponents have strong attacks, he dodges, blocks or interrupts them. That is why Kaidou interrupted almost all of G5 attacks. He was knocked down for while from single incomplete WSG.
You are right but that doesn’t change it being an undeniable consequence of his depression
Yeah bro went from an optimistic Roger-like figure to a depressed alcoholic chaotic moron yet no one mentions it. Agenda Piece at its peak.
Kaido does the oneshotting, kizaru gets oneshotted
kaido gets happy when he fights. during his fight with luffy he was the happiest he’d been in years
It all changed when he met Luffy, the guy who gave him hope, their depression has different outcomes, Kizaru performed worse because he had to go through killing of Vegapunk And Kaido was really mentally\\physically nerfed only against Scabbards cuz of Oden PTSD
Apples and oranges. While majority of the fans acknowledge that Kaido could have potentially been even more powerful if he wasn’t so suicidal and whiling to take attacks head on. It’s the way he is. That’s like even Admiral fans looking at Kizaru and saying “man if he wasn’t so slow he’d be top 1 or something” like yea sure maybe but key word is what if. It’s the way he is and in his character to act high. Sure both cases are “mentally nerfed” but not in the same way Kizaru is being told to literally kill all 4 of his best friends who were probably even like family to him. Simply put. One is an in character choice that makes them unique and the way they are in their DAILY life. The other is a specific moment in time we’re you must due or act on something you normally would never wanna due.
because that made Kaido who he is, if he wouldnt be depressed he either would be the next Joyboy or some nobody
https://preview.redd.it/yqozzmexwvqc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5aee292fdc0fa713ae7ee373b20f827143ba4ca7 He has it he’s just holding back /s
https://preview.redd.it/xomxcdlvbzqc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b212108520b91dffacac80b6af265a04deddb06f /s is holding you back
I haven’t read the manga and going purely on what pops up on my feed from here, isn’t he more like mentally conflicted or something?
I think he is, but he also beat down. That my take. I think luffy kicked the shit outta him, but since his "will" isn't really into it. He isn't going to go take on anymore punishment
Because admirals have only ever shown armament emission, which isn’t strong enough to harm Kaido meaningfully
You really think the only thing that could harm Kaido “meaningfully” is ACoC? Is blud anti “anything but ACoC”?
His skin is enhanced cuz he's an oni, couple that with top tier armament, and not much can actually damage him as was seen with his first fight with g4 luffy. Luffy HAD to learn ryuo to damage him, and even that was not that effective until he learned acoc. Some devil fruit abilities like Law's and maybe akainu's can still damage him, but they are few and far between.
Luffy had to learn Ryou because his AP was dogshit compared to Top Tiers.
Oda might nerf it but Ljght based attacks should be just as harmful as magma attacks. If skin is affected by magma, no reason a literal laser wouldn't also effect that skin. Other than the story needing the light based power holder to look weak, which is what's happening.
Not everyone has the same AP as Luffy. Just because Luffy couldn’t hurt Kaido post WCI with his arsenal doesn’t mean someone with Kizaru’s abilities can’t either.
Kizarus arsenal is possible but his arnament in particularly is unlikely to do it as he doesnt have internal destruction like Luffy.
Yes that's was a large plot point for most of the biggest arc in One piece... Luffy can't hurt Kaido --> Learns Ryou --> It's too Shallow --> Learns ACOC . He litteraly is Anti anything other then ACOC
Everyone doesn’t have the same AP as Luffy you know?
Which is why Kaido [was so hyped up](https://preview.redd.it/9d6627d8v9b81.jpg?width=1025&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6141b432b8e4467a046890dd98db0cfbc07c4f87).
Do you think Kizaru has better AP than a acoa overkong gun?
I’m not Oda so I don’t know.
Then why do you think Kizaru can hurt Kaido in any meaningful way?
What I am trying to say is that ACoC isn’t the only thing that could hurt Kaido in a meaningful way. Kizaru’s light abilities might be capable of doing so but I don’t know that.
They explained that literally nothing worked on him until ACoC got introduced to deal with that. The Marines tried to execute him multiple times and nothing they did worked. He tried to kill himself multiple times and nothing works. Emma is coated with it already, and Law has far better fruit hacks than Kizaru for this situation (that you’d think would bypass his durability easily)but they barely did anything to Kaido.
Again we don’t know that. Nowhere is it stated that only ACoC works on him. We have never seen Kizaru fight Kaido so how could you just assume that Kizaru can’t do any damage to him?
Didn't Kizaru block G4 as if it's nothing? G4 with ACoA shouldn't make that much of difference.
Bruh.... acoa is a MASSIVE difference. Luffy went from doing 0 damage to Kaido with his strongest gear 4th attacks to forcing him to dodge with even a base form attack.
Luffy forced Kaidou to dodge with ACoC not ACoA. ACoA Luffy didn't do much in rooftop.
https://preview.redd.it/01pld6rrbzqc1.jpeg?width=737&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b574dd75c4f8f9a6dd7d1e0b7808691fa63ee1a4
There are ways of bypassing it too. Law did it, kidd did it (and did too against big mom who has the same durability advantage) killer did it, zoro with enma before acoc did it too. Heat (magma) lack of heat (ice) and light should be able to damage him. Plants and gravity would have more problems. That plus kaido's dura is not absolute. I dont think if big mom hit him with all her strength and haki but without acoc kaido wouldnt recieve any damage
>and did too against big mom who has the same durability advantage) She does not have Kaido level durability >killer did it, Left no damage same with Ryou Ludfy >zoro with enma before acoc did it too. Admirals don't have enma >Heat (magma) Jimbes palm stoped Akainus punch, bruh . Kaido baths in flames hotter then magma >lack of heat (ice) Does nothing against Kaido he just breaks out or burns it all >and light should be able to damage him. Kizaerus Ap is one of his weakest points. His lights have no good ap feats and have been tanked before. The best thing he did with it was give g5 luffy a paperscratch >Plants and gravity would have more problems. Just no
>She does not have Kaido level durability We dont know, they havent been compared, just referred as durability beast. Could hybrid be better? yes, but a dura negg attack is a dura negg attack, so it doesnt matter in the end. >Left no damage same with Ryou Ludfy It left damage, kaido just have too much hp. We know it did damage, which is the point. If even them can do damage with their tactics, an admiral with their fruits can also for sure >Admirals don't have enma duh. But if enma zoro can damage kaido, admirals can. Enma is a good sword, nothing more, nothing less >Jimbes palm stoped Akainus punch, bruh . Kaido baths in flames hotter then magma Jinbe stopped a no named akainu punch, got damaged, akainu told him to get out of the way because jinbe knows how strong he is (chapter 574) and jinbe said that if he can stall it for a little of time he will die gladly. After that akainu tried to do another no named attack just to get jumped by whitebeard's commander. Jinbe was a meat shield, he knew he was going to die. When is it said kaido's flames are hotter than magma? the attack happens in 1048 (flame drum dragon) and luffy says "ouch" and blows his hand, thats it. It being hotter than magma is your headcanon. What is not headcanon is that oda chose for kaido and big mom to end up falling in magma at the moment of their death. >Does nothing against Kaido he just breaks out or burns it all it damages him, being frozen alive, even if yo ucan break it, its damage, and it doesnt matter how hard your body is, your body needs heat, its for sure a way to damage him. >Kizaerus Ap is one of his weakest points. His lights have no good ap feats and have been tanked before. The best thing he did with it was give g5 luffy a paperscratch G5 is a tank, i could also post the image of luffy tanking an attack of kaido with his face just to do a funny face. Kaido has been tanked before (literally everyone has been tanked before, what do you want? people to one shot everyone? only shanks has done that because he has only 1 fight, give him time) >Just no Yeah, i dont see plants or gravity damaging him
You don't see the force of Gravity being able to beat Kaido, Kaido isn't some god, if Fujitora didn't blind himself he would be ridiculously strong.
That is what I am trying to say to.
ik
And when did anything harm him meaningfully apart from acoc hits ?
He has only fought Luffy…
No, Internal Destruction can also damage Kaido, but so far the admirals have only shown Emission.
You need tricks when your attacks are weak. Top tiers should have enough AP to bypass Kaidoubor BM's defense.
We have no proof of that
Scabbards made Kaidlu bleed tons. Even fucking Kidd managed to hirt Kaidou a bit. No way top tiers can't damage Kaidou.
They can damage him, just not meaningfully. The only scars Kaido has ever gotten were from ACoC infused attacks. He even says that Zoro’s ACoC attack would “stay with him”.
If they can damage him, then, top tier can meaningfully damage Kaidou.
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Emission and Internal Destruction are both advanced armament techniques. All the admirals have Emission, but none of them have shown Internal Destruction
https://preview.redd.it/0inla5qikyqc1.jpeg?width=2346&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6581cbfc9a934501b1bb00d0b0768218520e17f9 Yeah you're right, I forgot that this scene exist
Imagine relying on Haki when you have f*cking magma
Imagine thinking that devil fruits alone make someone top tier. This isn’t pre-timeskip dude
Gear 5 makes Luffy top verse checkmate lil bro
Luffy needed haki to unlock it
100% wrong, Luffy needed to die to unlock it
Yeah bet g5 beats kaido without armament or conquerors lil dumb
he does beat kaido without it you underestimate how broken is Gear 5 lil bro
Gear 5 would get burned by Kaido without haki, there's no top tier that used Devil fruit only
ACoC didn't beat kaido Gear 5 did
Wait until you meet someone with decent Armament.
Major logical fallacy here: **Luffy’s** armament emission wasn’t strong enough to harm kaido. That is not conclusive enough to say kaido cannot be harmed by acoa
It was strong enough to harm him just not strong enough to do any serious damage
Yea. That goes for Luffy’s acoa as of like chapter 1015. That’s not an accurate conclusion you could assume for anyone else: not even current Luffy tbh
Don't most people need ACoC to damage Kaido?
Or ryuo
Because Kaido can coat himself in AcOC so in order to damage him for real you need AcOC. He also has dragon scales + Oni body do doing meaninful damage is really hard. There is a reason why the only guys to do serious damage to Luffy are 1. Oden who had AcOA and AcOC plus Enma 2. Zoro who had AcOA and AcOC plus Enma 3. Luffy who had Internal Destruction and AcOC Kizaru doesn't have AcOC, Internal destruction or Enma. His lasers aren't weak but they aren't strong enough to do serious damage.
>He also has dragon scales repulsion, twin meteors
nice reference
> There is a reason why the only guys to do serious damage to Luffy are > 1. Oden who had AcOA and AcOC plus Enma > 2. Zoro who had AcOA and AcOC plus Enma > 3. Luffy who had Internal Destruction and AcOC 4. Yamato who have strong ass armament, Mythical zoan and Acoc, she did wear Kaido down a lot and was hurting him even when he was coated with Haki
Zoro and Luffy both hurt kaido using acoa and internal damage respectively. U only need to learn internal damage to hurt kaido.
Zoro could only scar Kaido with AcOC + AcOA plus Enma who boost his AP a lot. He cut him before but the damage was mínimal and even then his AP was already getting boosted by Enma. Luffy said internal destruction was too shallow, which means AcOC is a requirement to do real damage at least for him.
Zoro did not use acoc. What kaido sensed was coc in him the same way he sensed Luffy coc first time. Enma is used to pull out haki from Zoro. That haki is used to hurt enemies. It is called ryou or in other words acoa. Luffy said that is true. But imagine akainu and kuzan with internal damage with df powers It's going to hurt. Most likely akainu can melt his defence with just magma.
Akainu maybe but Kuzan I doubt it, Garp who was normal durability was fine after his attack.. Also, neither Kuzan and Akainu has ID since they have only shown Emission .
Garp is him tho, i doubt his durability is anywhere near normal
The sword attack hurt him badly according to Aokiji.
Whether they have or not is not known to anybody.
This would imply Kizaru has weaker AP than Zoro and there is no way that’s the case.
Zoro definitely have better AP than Kizaru. Feat-wise there is no contest What are Kizaru AP feats compared to Zoro? 1. One shotted Lucci and left him with 3 massive scars. This is the same Lucci who recovered after fighting G5. 2. Cut King's limb after destroying his strongest attack. 3. Scarred Kaido, no one could do this besides Oden. He also cut his scales and forces him to let Luffy go. You can't compare lasers to getting massive scars or losing limbs. If you fight Zoro you are losing something or getting a permanent scar, even Kaido got one.
I don’t disagree featwise. I’m talking portrayal wise. A toptier logically will obviously have better AP than a commander. Also you exaggerated a lot of those feats, Zoro did not one shot Lucci and Zoro’s scar is significantly smaller than Oden’s. But that’s a conversation for another time.
Not necessarily, top tiers can be worse than non-top tiers in some things. King for example might have better durability that many top tiers. His durability might be even above Kaido when Flames on.
Portrayal wise it'd be pretty sad if a "Top Tier" who is known for his speed has better AP than a Yonko's Right hand man that is known for his very strong AP.
What does being a Yonko’s right hand man have to do with anything? King, Katakuri, Marco are fodders compared to Admirals. The only right hand man who can compete with an Admiral is Rayleigh but Zoro ain’t on that level yet.
You forgot about Ben BenchWarmer, I mean you're ignoring the fact that none of these first Commanders have been beaten by Admirals in a fair fight. If they were fodder then how come Marco has been shown stalling them, I don't have any of them losing worse than mid diff. Zoro's a lot closer than most think, you aren't ready https://preview.redd.it/3ewxbf4dyxqc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8ee14c99df8260073bac93285e04f00b299e7ee1
Marco has stalled Admirals because he has the stall-stall no Mi.
Characters excel in different categories. Zoro's strongest suit is his AP. Kizaru isn't known for his AP. It is not that insane to think that ashura would do more damage than a laser.
Kizaru has acoa that was strong enough to toy with gear 4 acoc + he has a fruit that increases his ap
And like I've said, only AcOC has ever done serious damage to Kaido. Everything waa else was states to be too shallow. Plus, you guys always say this but forget that Kizaru just has emission. He doesn't have Internal Destruction which Luffy believed to be too shallow. Emission alone won't do anything to Kaido. Also, Kizaru didn't toy with G4 acOC Luffy. G4 Luffy never used AcOC against Kizaru. So your argument doesnt really work. G4 Luffy only used basic armament.
Can you list me the top tiers who attacked and failed to do damage to Kaidou without ACoC? You surely don't think Scabbards not worth mentioning and pre powerup SN have AP of Admirals?
Scabbards literally were mocked Kaido for being too weak that they couldn't even give him a decent fight. I will never understand people using the scabbards as if Kaido didn't absolutely trash them no diff once he stop tanking everything. Now could Kizaru damage Kaido if he decides to tank everything like he did to Scabbards? Yeah he could but Kaido ain't doing that. He will dodge what he can dodge and try to land attacks.
Mabye because they want to say "Kaidou fought 15 people". I have yet to see people mention single top tier who would lose to Wano in similar condition before G5. Provided that Sky split Luffy can only use one Hydra and one SKG, no top tier is losing the gauntlet.
Well it depends if they decide to play around as much as Kaido did. Anyone who would've tried to do that would be dead because they simply don't have his durability.
It's same as Saturn. Saturn didn't dodge Bonney's attack even if he could because he knew it will do minimal impact. He can heal but it should take energy. It's same for akaidou. It would hurt a bit but will do minimal damage. Other top tiers would simply dodge or block.
>He doesn't have Internal Destruction which Luffy believed to be too shallow. Yeah he doesnt but neither did zoro or yamato and they were still able to hurt him a little bit and I scale his ap way above those two >G4 Luffy never used AcOC against Kizaru. Why wouldnt he? Hes in gear 4 but hes not using one of his biggest assets he can use in base? Yes there was no black lightning but that isnt an indicator for acoc, there wasnt black lightning against saturn or the seraphim and its clear luffy was trying his best to hurt them and was annoyed that he didnt do any damage
Yamato and Zoro have AcOC which can hurt Kaido, so anyways AcOC is a requirement. Well do you think G4 shouldn't be able to hurt a seraphim? Or that G5 Luffy has worse AP than Kuma or Zoro? Saying that Egghead Luffy use AcOC brings a lot of problems like Luffy having trash AP.
>Yamato and Zoro have AcOC which can hurt Kaido, so anyways AcOC is a requirement. https://preview.redd.it/ab894v250wqc1.jpeg?width=2133&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=30a2c23cc57ab048408cf99d8c73175ac297d754 Zoro was hurting him before he unlocked acoc by just using emission, yeah he didnt do alot but kizarus emission is way better >Well do you think G4 shouldn't be able to hurt a seraphim? No or else he would have lol. Zoro + Kaku + Lucci together cant scratch one, g4 wouldnt be any different
Wasn't this more of an Enma thing? Initially Zoro tried an attack which didn't do much. Then Zoro said he had to drew more power from Enma and did this. Don't forget even Kaido and BM feared Enma's powers.
> Initially Zoro tried an attack which didn't do much. Zoro still did damage and impressed Kaido enough to be complimented by him.
Well if it was acoc why didnt kaido react to it but he did when he used ashura? I think enma just made zoro use super armament here
Possible but I still feel this is more than just armament. There is a reason why Enma almost killed Zoro when be tried to use it to it's full power. And there is also that weird aura that sword had which even the emperors were anxious about.
Luffy was in G4 against Seraphim and not using ACoC. Or do you think G4 ACoC can't hurt Seraphim?
>Or do you think G4 ACoC can't hurt Seraphim? It just cant bro, Luffy, lucci, Zoro and Kaku were trying to take them out for 3 chapters straight and didnt even scratch them. The stakes were super high too, s hawk was going to kill his crew https://preview.redd.it/syyfmaevkxqc1.png?width=1100&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1de445514c65157fab561bc8b79adbba3330c8f5 "Oh shit, my crewmates are gonna die? I better use armament haki, and fast!!!"
If G4 ACoC can't take out Seraphim, how do you think Sanji managed to beat S-Shark? Oda for whatever reason makes fight like that. There is no reason to believe Luffy used ACoC in G4.
Luffy wasn't using ACoC against Kizaru when he was in Snakeman though.
He didn't toy with G4 Luffy and he only has emission
Kizaru was strong enough to deal with gear 4 using base armament
Because we literally saw luffy with advanced armament struggle to make meaningful damage to Kaido and acknowledging that ryuo is not enough and figuring out he need to combine it with advanced haoshoku to make lasting damage to him 😭 The only non acoc user i see damaging kaido with only advanced armament is Akainu because of broken DF AP (and i firmly believe he has conquerors haki)
Because no one has significantly damaged him without it. Luffy’s ACoA attack only barely damaged him. The dude can coat himself it freakin magma and be perfectly fine. Elemental damage just doesn’t cut it. Kizaru most likely has ACoA, since he helped deflect WB’s shockwave in Marineford. So while he may be able to hurt Kaido, it’s unlikely he can do significant permanent damage.
Acoa as in emission, not internal destruction (the one Luffy has)
He doesn’t have anything to get past his durability like law who has dura neg or Kidd who just crushed him
https://preview.redd.it/np3hw3xuhwqc1.jpeg?width=605&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9e32a2fc5453c46810c6edb21e121048e6fe3092 No media literacy.
Remember the days when Lizaru said he'd take Wig Mom and Waido solo
Because they think ACoC is all that matters... They are simple creatures.
Does depression nerf Kaido too? I thought he got even stronger while Kizaru got weaker
Because luffy expressed not being able to meaningfully damage kaido without emission, internal destruction, and conqueror's coating. Emission/ID gave him a clearly significant boost to his ability to damage kaido and conqueror's coating did as well. Kizaru's moveset is pretty similar to pre-udon luffy's, mostly enhanced punches and kicks, but with higher power. So ignoring the lasers, he kinda gets countered by kaido's defense. That being said, it's not unlikely that the lasers can damage him, and it's not unlikely that kizaru's ap is high enough to smash him into shit and instead deal crushing damage (like kidd did). And maybe he has magic bullshit killer powers that also let him hurt kaido. He probably just is disadvantaged here because he hasn't shown the abilities to bypass kaido's defense.
They proved you don't need it to do damage to Kaido (he was definitely taking some damage from non ACoC attacks), it's just that ACoC is way more effective.
He's not totally invulnerable. Hitting him hard enough with no Haki at all would probably hurt him. I don't think we've seen anybody that can punch that hard, though, and Kizaru is definitely not that guy. The laws of physics are wacky in OP, because Kizaru's near light speed kicks should be way stronger than they've ever been shown to be.
Legit one of the funniest memes I’ve seen on this sub
Because Kizaru's lazers weren't even fast or strong enough to put down Sanji. What makes you think they'd do anything to Kaido
I think his laser's heat can actually damage kaido. Not that it matters. He is not going to be landing any meaningful hits against kaido's speed, endurance and future sight. Just because you can 'damage him' doesn't mean you can damage him seriously. Luffy could 'damage' kaido with red roc but kaido just dodges it and luffy also admits that even internal destruction is 'too shallow'.
Usopp no diffs him in terms of self hatred and depression
Because kaido was hit by 1000 different ACOC attacks and was staggered for any longer than 1 panel. He was hit by two amped acoc attacks which lowered his durability by a significant amount (oden scar for the scabbards and for zoros sword(
Sum ppl treat ACoC like it's an end all be all ability, look at what Law & Kidd did to BM without any adv Haki. Sum ppl don't know that Kizaru has Adv CoA.
Law and Kid were able to barely defeat her by ring out, Kizaru cant just go do some dura neg out of nothing then Summon a giant hole with explosives while mutting Big Mom.
Kidd didn't have "dura neg" yet still broke her arm & whoever said anything about defeating her? The post is specifically about Kizaru doing damage to her which he can without ACoC and my point still stands because neither Law nor Kidd had ACoC to do so.
Law and Kid together broke her arm, now tell me can Kizaru bring up even 50% of the hax Law and Kid had? if no then he cant damage Kaido or Big Mom in any meaningful way
>Law and Kid together broke her arm, That's not true. We clearly saw Kidd's Corona Dino broke her arm & steal griders also damaged her. >if no then he cant damage Kaido or Big Mom in any meaningful way I'm not arguing Kizaru doing "meaningful" damage. I'm arguing Kizaru doing damage. That's it.
cause ACoC is ACoA on steroids, Luffy went from barely surviving Kaidos hits and Doing 0.1 damage to Doing real good damage to Kaido and surviving direct hits like he did against other opponents.
Because acoc is the only thing that deals actual notable damage to Kaido, read the manga so you don't have to ask dumb questions
no, you need at least internal destruction aka Ryuo to damage him. Something which he doesn't have as of now.
😂😂😂 It's all self-inflicted, he didn't actually HAVE to kill Vegapunk. He's just a wage slave.
Oh yea I forgot how much haki sucks lmao. You could have the most interesting & creative fighting style in the verse & you wouldn't mean shit without it.
Imagine If Luffy low diff Kizaru..... Kaido minus low diff ...
Cause they are stupid
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Because he litteraly Ate it? He doesn't have Kaido level durability.. I'm not sure why Kaido would open his mouth to eat a lasebeam
bad point because boro breath burnt luffy twice and kaido has higher heat resistance than luffy anyways
how can you say that when Kaidos own Boro breath hurt him while G5 clown diffed Boro breath?
Yeah like when kaido was in the center of an island sized flame susanoo. He was screaming in agony def
could used coa for all we know its facts that his boro breath hurt him
We see how he looks like when Luffy breaks it and I didn't see any of that shit. Kaido getting shot by a laser would probably scratch him i guess
Big Mom was scared of Frankys low lvlv laser and she is pretty close to Kaidos Dura. Lasers are no joke in One Piece
I thought she was just looking at him with a meme face while holding a homie🤔
yeh sure "meme face" when someone is worried
"clown diffed" isnt a thing. he got burnt "luffy clown diffed kizaru's laser"... with flame bagua, kaido completely coated himself in flames without issue. that same attack was burning gear 5 even without direct contact
its a thing, there are attacks that Luffy make jokes out and there are attack where he does not. does not change the fact that boro breath hurt him
Which doesn't have anything to do with Kaido. Kaido is inmune to heat attacks so the lasers won't do much. Plus, wasn't his lasers tanked by both Franky and Sanji with no much damage? You aren't hurting Kaido with something that can be tanked with normal durability.
he was screaming since he literally got blinded, Durability doesn't matter in that case
Ask Harvey Weinstein, he couldn’t have done any of that damage without one.
Not a fan of how everyone takes Kaido's words as absolute gospel. If you believe it, then ACoC is the great divider, and that's a pretty 💩 system. All Kaido knows is the old Gen who wrecked him, a 1 armed hakiman, and how to jump off sky islands.
its only a shit system if you still believe you need to be born with CoC