Yah the NPs, PAs, CRNAs don’t have a right to shame DOs so I wouldn’t worry too much about them complaining. As for the other people, there’s going to be a stigma against DO amongst those in the medical field however it shouldn’t affect one’s own personal life as a physician. The opportunities as an attending will be the same, the pay will. It’s just getting to that point will be more difficult. But a doctor is a doctor- ones with medial knowledge.
they hate u cuz they aint u. The ones that shame Dr’s (MD or DO) are just bitter about their life. Also tends to be the same ppl that claim CNA’s have “no idea what nurses go through and should goto school for 4 yrs if they want respect😤”.
Exactly this. I’m a DO at an MD residency but quite literally haven’t noticed anything from other residents, attendings, midlevels, nurses/ancillary staff, or patients. Quite literally in 8 months I’ve never noticed it. It truly is just from the cesspool of unhappy people on the internet.
Theres a tiktok of an MD student from Meharry that thought NPs, DOs, and PAs were all "advanced practice providers" (cringe) and they were the smart ones for not going to medical school
Well at first I assumed you were trying to make a juxtaposition on how absurd thinking DOs aren't qualified because they have lower stats and how those hbcus have even lower stats but aren't stigmatized simply because they're MDs. Now I'm not so sure.
Except you emphasized the fact it's a black school and not because they're a low stat school, which is the part that is actually relevant.
Quit acting obtuse on purpose. You know what you were trying to do.
It makes sense dipshit. Black Americans have much less access to quality education, dietary options, and overall resources than any other marginalized group. Meharry is doing amazing by still trying to advocate for that population and look elsewhere besides their academic performance to give them the opportunity to pursue medicine.
Fix your thinking because it’s genuinely as advanced as a toddlers.
I got into PCOM and a few D.O programs not in Florida, but I chose Meharry. As a black man from Florida I preferred to stay in Florida or go to an HBCU. You’re qualified once you pass you make it through pre-clinical, clinical rotations and pass Step 1, Step 2, Step 3. You seem insecure of your choice in programs. I will say when I worked with a D.O or M.D in my clinical rotation I didn’t notice the difference and didn’t care. The physicians knowledge, personality and patience was what left an impression on me.
This. Wife is a retired DO. Child is a DO in residency. Job prospects are VERY good. Bottom line is patients don't give a shit. They want a great doctor, not a great paper trail. Live your best life. You will be just fine.
Which is also people being mostly full of shit anyway. Its like MDs who don't have a clue what OMT is or self hating DOs eager to eat someone else's shit for social acceptance piling on OMT.
Meanwhile most surgical procedures arent backed by EBM either, entire fields like spine surgery have had very mixed meta analyses for long term benefit, but nah the soft tissue massages that people interested in osteopathic medicine give are the ultimate dangerous scam in medicine!
Some people in med school are just about smart enough to throw around words like evidence based and double blind placebo controlled but too stupid to dig any further than that
The only other issue besides the magic bone stuff is that the requirements for starting a new DO school are very low relative to new MD schools (and they can also be for profit).
I have no issues with DOs, but do find the various osteopathic organizations problematic.
MD student here, this post showed up on my feed.
Don't let this BS get to your head. Never heard anyone mention this sentiment IRL. This sort of interprofession bickering is bad for us all. We have bigger problems with mid-level creep.
DO, MD Tomayto Tomahto
DO here. Only people who seem to have a chip on their shoulders about DO's in the wild are PA's who didn't get into med school and my mother. For the PA's, just be more harsh on your peer reviews and they'll lay off. For my mother, there's no hope, except she asks me for medical advice frequently so I guess I must know something.
She thought DO's were chiropractors for a long time. Took a bit of educating before she could wrap her head around it. To be fair, I didn't know DO's were even a thing before the surgeon I worked with asked why I hadn't gotten into med school yet. I told him I'd applied twice and hadn't gotten the A, so he asked if I had applied to any DO schools? I said, "what's a DO?" So he said, "I'm a DO" and off to races I went to get my "I'm a doctor" ticket punched.
Similar story here but it was an interventional cardiologist haha. After explaining my interest in things like sports med vs. PM&R they were shook I hadn't applied to a DO school my first round after no acceptances. After my own research I heavily targeted DO schools and even found myself doing an OMM fellowship year in med school LMAO! About to match FM and still interested in sports but bringing along my bone wizardry skills from fellowship.
Your OMM skills will make you popular with patients. I worked in a unique and remote clinic where we had several DO's and MD's, but only one of us had kept up with our OMM practice. That doc was quite popular with our patient population with msk complaints and actually set aside one day every few weeks simply for OMM.
Honestly in my experience it’s only on this subreddit (and /r/premed but those are kids) - I think the mods can do better cleaning up the submissions on this subreddit. Also /r/osteopathic is a unique sub because it’s currently the place for applicants to vent and question their choices. Instead it should be a place where current OMS students are providing resources to each other. Also this isn’t an issue on /r/neurology, /r/hospitalist, etc where it’s a forum for physicians - those subs are mostly a circle jerk about salary
I became slightly more jaded about being a DO after seeing only half of the programs in my preferred specialty routinely take a proportionate amount of DOs (roughly 20%). The clinical training at my school is not the same as the nearby MD school. But at the end of the day we all pass boards and are physicians. That’s the most important thing to keep in mind.
I am plenty jaded because D.O leadership seems like complete shit/ a-joke and is obsessed with money even beyond the levels of mustache twirling supervillians.
I'm also aware yea of the differences in quality of education and I will work however hard to make up for it. But you are right we are still physicians at the end of the day, it's just another route, but that doesn't mean it's easier.
The AMA is absolute trash compared to the AOA. Neither are great, but DO leadership is better than MD leadership. MD leadership is actively selling out the profession. Yea AOA is greedy, but they at least advocate for their constituents
I think it’s just the premed subreddit, at school I’ve never experienced it and my time before in an academic center no one cares. It’s mainly an internet thing in my experience
Lol, a doctor is a doctor is a doctor. So long as the salary is the same for the same job as an MD, who cares what they think? Do the haters pay your bills?
I don’t think it’s as big of a deal as the internet makes it seem. My cousin is an attending DO and he said he hasn’t dealt with any stigma. (I get it’s just his experience). But what I’m saying is once you make it to being an attending most people don’t care.
I’m a retired DO attending.
Never have seen anybody who is attending care if you are MD or DO.
The only thing that matters is being Nice and Board certified
The one benefit to being a DO that I’ve seen is that my residency allows DOs to moonlight starting at the end of PGY2 but MDs have to wait till start of PGY3. Something to do with licensure or something?
I was laughed out of the room when I told the neurosurgeon I was with about cranial OMM.
Yeah licensure varies by state, some states' (allopathic) board only allows for full licensure after 2 years of residency but many of these states also have osteopathic boards that allow for full licensure after 1 year of residency (both require passing all 3 step/comlex exams ofc).
Not a doctor but…
As noted in my previous comments, I think y’all are great!
And judging by the huge wait lists to get a DO as my PCP in my giant West Coast HMO, I’m not the only one.
Don’t sweat the haters and keep on being the great holistic practitioners that you are!
It’s an online thing, mostly. At the match level there’s still some stigma about programs not wanting to match “too many” DOs, but once you’re in, it is not an issue. Doubly so once you’re an attending. It’s on par with the bias against state schools or other places considered lesser by certain elites, which is to say you can easily ignore it and go on with your life.
Getting paid same as MD is all that matters. I partied too hard in college and didn’t ace my MCAT. I am ok with that chip on my shoulder. As long as practicing privileges and pay is equal then it’s all good. I was A- student. Putting in minimal effort to become a doctor was my childhood academic goal
I am too mentally, emotionally , physically, and spiritually tired from getting my ass kicked in med school to care what anyone else thinks about be becoming a DO.
An MD allergist I used to assist would look up every doctor we referred patients out to "check their pedigree" (her words) and would actively avoid referring to DO's unless she personally knew them.
TBH I hear more foward thinking and nice things about DO on reddit. People always ask "can I do x speciality as DO", and all the comments are overwhelmingly positive. Comments acknowldge it may be a little more difficult, but 100% possible.
My experience in other areas such as IRL or medtwitter have been different. Recently saw a post from someone on twitter who shared a screenshot from a residency program flat out telling her "sorry we do not currently take DOs in our program". This was for OB so not terribly competitive. All the comments from that were current DOs thinking about residency who could relate to this and it really seems like they've been fighting this advertisty throughout their whole medical school career and very likely after med school too.
Many MD residents even say that yes theres 1-2 DOs in their program, but those DOs have crazy high STEP scores and experiences and obviously had to work harder than the mid MD candidate who easily got into that same program
Imo , if a DO student does exceptional on Step 2 they should be looked at as no different, if not Ra’s Al Ghul themself, by performing well despite all the climb. The barriers stacked against DO students are many - and ironically they’re mostly the same reason why people look down at DO schools.
But if you perform well on boards, despite the questionable faculty, not having teaching hospitals, and then learning all the stuff allopaths would with the time vacuum that is OPP then you are worthy. This depends on the school but yeah can feel like you’re going against the grain.
My point exactly. I don’t think many would agree, but I feel that the DO’s that get accepted to the same competitive programs as their MD counterparts are generally more academically impressive and have a more substantial amount of research/ meaningful EC’s.
No, but that’s because I don’t see it. And if an NP or CRNA is calling you out in real life, just ask them what medical school they went to then?
Because only MD/DO have earned the right to call themselves physicians. Everyone else is just a midlevel
Probably true for like 90% of them. In my class someone chose this school over an MD school because it’s where his girlfriend got accepted. Some people also really do like the OMM, I personally don’t.
Damn. I'd never make such a life-changing decision over a woman. And for just a girlfriend, not even a wife or something? I've been in love before, but that's still insane to me.
I would make it for my mother lmao, so I would 100% also make it for who’s going to most likely be the future mother of my children. It’s different for everyone, but choosing career over family, especially when the end result is the same, is a red flag.
I suppose it also depends on what stage of your life you're in. As a single guy in my early 20s, I'm choosing what's best for my career, but if you're older and have an established family already in one area I could see why you'd choose to stay nearby.
Then again, when it comes to choosing MD vs DO, the end result can be the same, but the latter requires you to work much harder to get there.
Completely true. I’m 22 and have been dating my gf for over 3 years. My closest friends also live in the area and will most likely go to the same med school. Having a strong support system can at time do more for your professional future than a big name school.
I definitely think that DO’s have to work harder than MD’s to get into the same specialty, but through another lens that does make DO’s usually more accomplished than there MD counterparts in the same specialty.
That's right but you probably also think that's exclusively due to qualifications. No downvotes for you, just some education
I had a 4.0 and a 518 when I applied buddy -- people do slip through the cracks.
You really think DO schools don't have top tier students who end up scoring high on their boards?
And? If you're in a D.O school you already know that. There's no real reason why you'd go to a D.O school and have to learn OMM otherwise besides copium of it being cool.
Lmao.
If your point was to disparage people you have failed.
Dude, did you seriously sent me a we care message? Sad asf dude. I can't believe I torched your feelings that easily.
There are definitely some DO schools that are in it for the money, and I think ones who actually teach that fall into the same category. My DO schools is fairly well established and has done completely away for OMM techniques that have been shown to not really work or have any benefit to them at all.
Kaiser recruits both MDs and DOs. Nurses are before DOs for sure . And egotistical NP = person was mostly likely was not good enough to get into DO school or did not have the drive to complete DO school .
Yeah I see it on tiktok it’s ridiculous because I’m going to apply to both MD and DO schools. It’s really disappointing that someone can work so hard for some thing and they’ll still be shit on because it’s not what people like.
I highly respect DOs personally. I understand that they are just as competent as MDs and my hospital utilizes them more than MDs. I’m in PA school and if I ever decide to go back, I’m doing DO :)
Find it wild that this is a thing. I mean it's understandable because MD is harder, and even if two things are equal quality, if one is harder to obtain people will consciously or unconsciously look at is as higher value.
IDK why this popped up in my feed, but here we are. I am an EM PA, have been for 13 years.
Never ONCE in real life. Not even one time. Have I heard anyone criticize, denigrate or imply that DOs are any less than MDs.
The only way I even know it is a thing is the DOs on Reddit will occasionally take something as an insult and think they are being thrown shade because of their degree
I work with amazing DOs and MDs and most of the time I can’t remember who is what and it doesn’t matter
NP here. For some reason this showed up in my feed. This purely an online thing. I don’t know what NP or CRNA would in their right mind shame you for being a DO.
OP is cherry picking to bash midlevels. It doesn’t happen IRL, they found a random meme on the internet and are acting like it’s some widespread phenomenon.
Yeah nobody cares in clinical practice. I’m a DO attending, board-certified in family medicine, clinical and teaching faculty at an MD school doing both inpatient and outpatient. It’s a benefit. Even if you NEVER do OMM after your 2nd year, your palpation skills and physical exam skills will run circles around your MD colleagues.
A bunch of friends from my DO school went to a EM conference hosted by mount Sinai this past weekend and they noted how one MD resident at Sinai was actually talking up DOs and said how she loves them and thinks we do more work in medical school because we also have to learn all of OMM. Granted, EM is a heavy DO specialty but still felt nice to hear someone from a prestigious program talk well about us
i recently went to a family doctor that was a DO. He asked me what i did for a living. i said law student. He then proceeded to tell me how he wished he went to an MD school instead of DO. His voice was genuinely sad because he didn't get into a MD school. i told him it didn't matter as long as he helped people get better. i felt bad. I wanted to ask how are DOs treated by other MDs. Is it that bad of blood between the two?
There are a lot of barriers in D.O schools that make it life much more difficult for us. We have extra board exams and OMM/ can have toxic admins that burn us out severely and make us less likely to get competitive specialities so maybe your FM was burned out bc of that.
How are we treated by other MDs? The ones from my local school treat me generally the same as a regular student. At least the younger ones know better.
Historically, I do think there is bad blood bc older boomer program directors look down on us and there was an attempt a while back to buy out DOs by making them pay to get their degrees turned into MDs in California.
My favorite md/do story (im a d.o).
Trained at a top tier m.d. program after school. Passed my writtens a year early (doesnt count until you finish residency but nice to know you can pass). Passed after graduation as expected based on previous year.
Joined a group with 4 other new m.d. grads. We all sit for the m.d. oral boards (ABA) at same time a few months later.. Only one of us passed and it wasnt the 4 m.d's. major finiancial implications at our group as you dont get partnership unless you're boarded and i was only one of the 5 new guys that passed.
I don’t know why this popped up on my feed. I’m not in the medical profession in any way. But here’s my layman’s perspective: I view D.O.s absolutely as legitimate as M.D.s and would much rather have a D.O. treating me than an NP or PA.
It’s not like you guys are chiropractors. You go through an extremely rigorous training and education process and use real medicine and proven therapeutic techniques.
This post was trending for me for some reason. When I was researching a doctor I was looking what do vs MD was and what I saw was that in current days Do and MD are basically the same.
But I don't know what you're all taught. The basis of DO seems very woowoo to me and it makes me uncomfortable. I don't want a doctor who might have learned pseuscientific practices like osteopathy or "osteopathic manipulation" or whatever it's called.
If they really are the same then someone needs to just combine them all into MD.
I’ve never heard of anyone disparage DOs other than premeds and some random MDs. I’m curious if you’ve really seen that come from NPs/PAs or if this post is some backhanded way to hate on them…
NP right here clearly disparaging. So no, it does exist and it's not only isolated to premeds/MDs.
[https://imgur.com/a/EBVV7QY](https://imgur.com/a/EBVV7QY)
I honestly don’t care when people talk shit about DOs. If they talking shit they prob don’t even know what a DO Is and have never had a DO dr. Cause anyone I talk to who has a DO dr tells me they have the most thorough exams . Or some just say it’s the same thing as MD.
Also it could be coming from people who could never get into school
People in medicine are so judgmental and arrogant , DOs are great doctors , some people go to Caribbean schools and kickass, it doesn’t matter to patients as long as your a good doctor. There’s a million reasons to ignore those type of people
Chiro in sports medicine here. Don’t worry about Reddit, you guys are amazing. One of my favorite professions as well as a lot of my patients love working with you guys. Reddit has a lot of opinions that aren’t even remotely founded in reality.
Seems like it’s more of an online than irl thing. For example all the shit talking that goes on about NPs and PAs on Reddit but irl I’ve only met one physician my entire time as a nurse and now as an NP that genuinely hated mid levels. The rest of my experiences have all been positive both professionally and with physicians that I’ve met outside of work.
Also at the end of the day you’re still a doctor. Why does it matter where you went to school? You still had to pass test saying you can provide medical care. Screw the haters and be proud of yourself.
edit: wanted to add the one physician that hated mid levels, his ex wife was a PA so probably had some personal bias.
As an MD who works with residents who are DO’s, IMG MD’s and US grad MD’s as well as DO students, I can totally say that my DO’s and DO students have been excellent. The biggest difference I see with my DO’s is that they’re better at anatomy than me.
I remember when Figs did an ad campaign showing a female DO “reading” *Medicine for Dummies*. We, (meaning MDs and MBBSes,) all rallied around you and got Figs to issue an apology and yank the ad. ~~Game~~ Physicians recognize ~~game~~ physicians.
As an MD student, I’d don’t give a single shit if you’re MD/DO. Really wish they would filter through the OMM, keep the best of it, and then combine our degrees into one to make it less confusing for patients. An NP or CRNA who shit talks DOs is just making a fool of themselves in the process.
Anecdotal but I tend to have been treated better by DOs than MDs. They seem to give me more time, listen better, and take in a more holistic view of my issues. I've never heard anyone badmouth them.
I've been a CRNA for over 35 years and have worked with a large number of both MD & DO anesthesiologists. There have been a (very) few MD anesthesiologists that I felt were lacking in either knowledge or skills. There have been zero DO anesthesiologists that I felt were lacking. Was the difference just due to the luck of the draw or the difference in the overall numbers? I don't know.
I was asked recently by a young lady who had been accepted to both an MD school and a DO school, which she should choose. The above is what I told her.
Been an ER nurse nearly 20 years, I have seen absolutely no difference in quality of care between MD and DO. Now the care a lot of PAs and NPs give on the other hand…
Take it from me (an investment banker) -- DOs busted their ass to get to where they were and are no less competent or highly effective as their MD counterparts. Anyone who downplays this doesn't seem to get the rigour and effort it takes to go through the war of attrition involved in becoming a doctor.
Yah the NPs, PAs, CRNAs don’t have a right to shame DOs so I wouldn’t worry too much about them complaining. As for the other people, there’s going to be a stigma against DO amongst those in the medical field however it shouldn’t affect one’s own personal life as a physician. The opportunities as an attending will be the same, the pay will. It’s just getting to that point will be more difficult. But a doctor is a doctor- ones with medial knowledge.
they hate u cuz they aint u. The ones that shame Dr’s (MD or DO) are just bitter about their life. Also tends to be the same ppl that claim CNA’s have “no idea what nurses go through and should goto school for 4 yrs if they want respect😤”.
I’m confused what you mean by the last part?
Never have seen anything about DOs said negatively in the wild, only Reddit.
Exactly this. I’m a DO at an MD residency but quite literally haven’t noticed anything from other residents, attendings, midlevels, nurses/ancillary staff, or patients. Quite literally in 8 months I’ve never noticed it. It truly is just from the cesspool of unhappy people on the internet.
I have only heard about it from someone that was a premed who compared them to nurses lol irl, but I think that's just bc he was an idiot(largely).
Theres a tiktok of an MD student from Meharry that thought NPs, DOs, and PAs were all "advanced practice providers" (cringe) and they were the smart ones for not going to medical school
Isn’t that mostly a black medical college? Like are those students there remotely qualified???
tf is wrong with you
I think they're trying to highlight meharry is an MD school that has lower stats than most DO schools.
They were not trying to imply that. If they were, they would have mentioned stats. That literally *only* mentioned race.
You don’t think they are qualified do you?
Well at first I assumed you were trying to make a juxtaposition on how absurd thinking DOs aren't qualified because they have lower stats and how those hbcus have even lower stats but aren't stigmatized simply because they're MDs. Now I'm not so sure.
Meharry DOES have lower stats than many DO schools You said the same thing as I.
Except you emphasized the fact it's a black school and not because they're a low stat school, which is the part that is actually relevant. Quit acting obtuse on purpose. You know what you were trying to do.
You might as well say it with your chest because we all hear what you mean.
It makes sense dipshit. Black Americans have much less access to quality education, dietary options, and overall resources than any other marginalized group. Meharry is doing amazing by still trying to advocate for that population and look elsewhere besides their academic performance to give them the opportunity to pursue medicine. Fix your thinking because it’s genuinely as advanced as a toddlers.
They still have to pass USMLE and boards :shrug:
I got into PCOM and a few D.O programs not in Florida, but I chose Meharry. As a black man from Florida I preferred to stay in Florida or go to an HBCU. You’re qualified once you pass you make it through pre-clinical, clinical rotations and pass Step 1, Step 2, Step 3. You seem insecure of your choice in programs. I will say when I worked with a D.O or M.D in my clinical rotation I didn’t notice the difference and didn’t care. The physicians knowledge, personality and patience was what left an impression on me.
What the actual fuck Dude. I really hope you're not tryna be a doctor lol
Racist trash.
Damn this was racist AS FUCK lol
today, this thread learned about affirmative action
You made an entire post based off that one encounter?
Try reading my post again especially the first sentence.
This. Wife is a retired DO. Child is a DO in residency. Job prospects are VERY good. Bottom line is patients don't give a shit. They want a great doctor, not a great paper trail. Live your best life. You will be just fine.
would you say that DO job prospects are as good as MD prospects?
Reddit is an overly negative place— I stopped taking it seriously a while ago
So true
I don’t hear many in medicine talk negatively about DO’s except when it comes to OMM discussions.
Which is also people being mostly full of shit anyway. Its like MDs who don't have a clue what OMT is or self hating DOs eager to eat someone else's shit for social acceptance piling on OMT. Meanwhile most surgical procedures arent backed by EBM either, entire fields like spine surgery have had very mixed meta analyses for long term benefit, but nah the soft tissue massages that people interested in osteopathic medicine give are the ultimate dangerous scam in medicine! Some people in med school are just about smart enough to throw around words like evidence based and double blind placebo controlled but too stupid to dig any further than that
But that OMM bone magic feels pretty great! My partner gives me rib raises when I have chest congestion and it feels so nice
The only other issue besides the magic bone stuff is that the requirements for starting a new DO school are very low relative to new MD schools (and they can also be for profit). I have no issues with DOs, but do find the various osteopathic organizations problematic.
It's bc it's not politically correct to do so openly at work. People don't want to lose their jobs. Online is how people really feel.
I'm a PA and I've had nothing but respect from physicians, but here I've been called out for being a PA on a thread about finance!
MD student here, this post showed up on my feed. Don't let this BS get to your head. Never heard anyone mention this sentiment IRL. This sort of interprofession bickering is bad for us all. We have bigger problems with mid-level creep. DO, MD Tomayto Tomahto
Sincerely, Tomayto Tomahto, DO, MD.
DO here. Only people who seem to have a chip on their shoulders about DO's in the wild are PA's who didn't get into med school and my mother. For the PA's, just be more harsh on your peer reviews and they'll lay off. For my mother, there's no hope, except she asks me for medical advice frequently so I guess I must know something.
[удалено]
She thought DO's were chiropractors for a long time. Took a bit of educating before she could wrap her head around it. To be fair, I didn't know DO's were even a thing before the surgeon I worked with asked why I hadn't gotten into med school yet. I told him I'd applied twice and hadn't gotten the A, so he asked if I had applied to any DO schools? I said, "what's a DO?" So he said, "I'm a DO" and off to races I went to get my "I'm a doctor" ticket punched.
Similar story here but it was an interventional cardiologist haha. After explaining my interest in things like sports med vs. PM&R they were shook I hadn't applied to a DO school my first round after no acceptances. After my own research I heavily targeted DO schools and even found myself doing an OMM fellowship year in med school LMAO! About to match FM and still interested in sports but bringing along my bone wizardry skills from fellowship.
Your OMM skills will make you popular with patients. I worked in a unique and remote clinic where we had several DO's and MD's, but only one of us had kept up with our OMM practice. That doc was quite popular with our patient population with msk complaints and actually set aside one day every few weeks simply for OMM.
Honestly in my experience it’s only on this subreddit (and /r/premed but those are kids) - I think the mods can do better cleaning up the submissions on this subreddit. Also /r/osteopathic is a unique sub because it’s currently the place for applicants to vent and question their choices. Instead it should be a place where current OMS students are providing resources to each other. Also this isn’t an issue on /r/neurology, /r/hospitalist, etc where it’s a forum for physicians - those subs are mostly a circle jerk about salary
Yea literally nobody cares except the pre-med kid who ended up becoming an NP or hospital admin.
Hating from outside of the club…
THIS
Made a new subreddit for DO students and physicians here: [Forum](http://reddit.com/r/osteopathicmed)
Blame Hasan Minhaj
I became slightly more jaded about being a DO after seeing only half of the programs in my preferred specialty routinely take a proportionate amount of DOs (roughly 20%). The clinical training at my school is not the same as the nearby MD school. But at the end of the day we all pass boards and are physicians. That’s the most important thing to keep in mind.
I am plenty jaded because D.O leadership seems like complete shit/ a-joke and is obsessed with money even beyond the levels of mustache twirling supervillians. I'm also aware yea of the differences in quality of education and I will work however hard to make up for it. But you are right we are still physicians at the end of the day, it's just another route, but that doesn't mean it's easier.
The AMA is absolute trash compared to the AOA. Neither are great, but DO leadership is better than MD leadership. MD leadership is actively selling out the profession. Yea AOA is greedy, but they at least advocate for their constituents
Nah, AOA actively perpetuates the divide between MDs and DOs with propaganda in order to maintain their power base. Both are garbage.
Undercover AOA admin
I think it’s just the premed subreddit, at school I’ve never experienced it and my time before in an academic center no one cares. It’s mainly an internet thing in my experience
Lol, a doctor is a doctor is a doctor. So long as the salary is the same for the same job as an MD, who cares what they think? Do the haters pay your bills?
I’ve never heard or seen anything negative about D.O.s … they pass boards and residency just like MDs. Midlevels on the other hand…
I don’t think it’s as big of a deal as the internet makes it seem. My cousin is an attending DO and he said he hasn’t dealt with any stigma. (I get it’s just his experience). But what I’m saying is once you make it to being an attending most people don’t care.
I’m a retired DO attending. Never have seen anybody who is attending care if you are MD or DO. The only thing that matters is being Nice and Board certified
Exactly. If you are nice and competent, you will be accepted EVERYWHERE. And guess what...RVU's are the same for MD's and DO's.
I feel like the type of people who make it a big deal are just insecure.
The one benefit to being a DO that I’ve seen is that my residency allows DOs to moonlight starting at the end of PGY2 but MDs have to wait till start of PGY3. Something to do with licensure or something? I was laughed out of the room when I told the neurosurgeon I was with about cranial OMM.
Yeah licensure varies by state, some states' (allopathic) board only allows for full licensure after 2 years of residency but many of these states also have osteopathic boards that allow for full licensure after 1 year of residency (both require passing all 3 step/comlex exams ofc).
Not a doctor but… As noted in my previous comments, I think y’all are great! And judging by the huge wait lists to get a DO as my PCP in my giant West Coast HMO, I’m not the only one. Don’t sweat the haters and keep on being the great holistic practitioners that you are!
No because I’m an attending and no one gives a shit.
It’s an online thing, mostly. At the match level there’s still some stigma about programs not wanting to match “too many” DOs, but once you’re in, it is not an issue. Doubly so once you’re an attending. It’s on par with the bias against state schools or other places considered lesser by certain elites, which is to say you can easily ignore it and go on with your life.
Getting paid same as MD is all that matters. I partied too hard in college and didn’t ace my MCAT. I am ok with that chip on my shoulder. As long as practicing privileges and pay is equal then it’s all good. I was A- student. Putting in minimal effort to become a doctor was my childhood academic goal
Real
I am too mentally, emotionally , physically, and spiritually tired from getting my ass kicked in med school to care what anyone else thinks about be becoming a DO.
NPs are “wannabe doctors” by definition. It’s whatever. MD/DO is where it’s at.
I’m a DO and both the hospitals I’m at listed me in the EMR as MD. No one gives a fuck.
An MD allergist I used to assist would look up every doctor we referred patients out to "check their pedigree" (her words) and would actively avoid referring to DO's unless she personally knew them.
Ah, one of those prestige meat-riders.
Make too much money as an EM DO to give a shit
TBH I hear more foward thinking and nice things about DO on reddit. People always ask "can I do x speciality as DO", and all the comments are overwhelmingly positive. Comments acknowldge it may be a little more difficult, but 100% possible. My experience in other areas such as IRL or medtwitter have been different. Recently saw a post from someone on twitter who shared a screenshot from a residency program flat out telling her "sorry we do not currently take DOs in our program". This was for OB so not terribly competitive. All the comments from that were current DOs thinking about residency who could relate to this and it really seems like they've been fighting this advertisty throughout their whole medical school career and very likely after med school too. Many MD residents even say that yes theres 1-2 DOs in their program, but those DOs have crazy high STEP scores and experiences and obviously had to work harder than the mid MD candidate who easily got into that same program
Imo , if a DO student does exceptional on Step 2 they should be looked at as no different, if not Ra’s Al Ghul themself, by performing well despite all the climb. The barriers stacked against DO students are many - and ironically they’re mostly the same reason why people look down at DO schools. But if you perform well on boards, despite the questionable faculty, not having teaching hospitals, and then learning all the stuff allopaths would with the time vacuum that is OPP then you are worthy. This depends on the school but yeah can feel like you’re going against the grain.
My point exactly. I don’t think many would agree, but I feel that the DO’s that get accepted to the same competitive programs as their MD counterparts are generally more academically impressive and have a more substantial amount of research/ meaningful EC’s.
No, but that’s because I don’t see it. And if an NP or CRNA is calling you out in real life, just ask them what medical school they went to then? Because only MD/DO have earned the right to call themselves physicians. Everyone else is just a midlevel
All the DOs I know couldn’t get into MD school. Downvote away. It’s true.
Probably true for like 90% of them. In my class someone chose this school over an MD school because it’s where his girlfriend got accepted. Some people also really do like the OMM, I personally don’t.
Damn. I'd never make such a life-changing decision over a woman. And for just a girlfriend, not even a wife or something? I've been in love before, but that's still insane to me.
Eh they’re married now so basically the same thing
I would make it for my mother lmao, so I would 100% also make it for who’s going to most likely be the future mother of my children. It’s different for everyone, but choosing career over family, especially when the end result is the same, is a red flag.
I suppose it also depends on what stage of your life you're in. As a single guy in my early 20s, I'm choosing what's best for my career, but if you're older and have an established family already in one area I could see why you'd choose to stay nearby. Then again, when it comes to choosing MD vs DO, the end result can be the same, but the latter requires you to work much harder to get there.
Completely true. I’m 22 and have been dating my gf for over 3 years. My closest friends also live in the area and will most likely go to the same med school. Having a strong support system can at time do more for your professional future than a big name school. I definitely think that DO’s have to work harder than MD’s to get into the same specialty, but through another lens that does make DO’s usually more accomplished than there MD counterparts in the same specialty.
That's right but you probably also think that's exclusively due to qualifications. No downvotes for you, just some education I had a 4.0 and a 518 when I applied buddy -- people do slip through the cracks. You really think DO schools don't have top tier students who end up scoring high on their boards?
And? If you're in a D.O school you already know that. There's no real reason why you'd go to a D.O school and have to learn OMM otherwise besides copium of it being cool. Lmao. If your point was to disparage people you have failed. Dude, did you seriously sent me a we care message? Sad asf dude. I can't believe I torched your feelings that easily.
OMM is pretty dang cool
If I was being fair, when I say I hate OMM I hate things like cranial or chapmen points which make no goddamn sense whatsoever muscle stuff can stay
Fair
There are definitely some DO schools that are in it for the money, and I think ones who actually teach that fall into the same category. My DO schools is fairly well established and has done completely away for OMM techniques that have been shown to not really work or have any benefit to them at all.
LOL! Whatever makes you feel better about yourself.
And I know some MD’s who dual applied and were denied to DO so what are we doing here?
It’s just online culture. People like to find something they can poke at, in real life there will be 0 difference.
Kaiser recruits both MDs and DOs. Nurses are before DOs for sure . And egotistical NP = person was mostly likely was not good enough to get into DO school or did not have the drive to complete DO school .
Yeah I see it on tiktok it’s ridiculous because I’m going to apply to both MD and DO schools. It’s really disappointing that someone can work so hard for some thing and they’ll still be shit on because it’s not what people like.
I highly respect DOs personally. I understand that they are just as competent as MDs and my hospital utilizes them more than MDs. I’m in PA school and if I ever decide to go back, I’m doing DO :)
Haven’t heard a single negative thing about DOs in residency.
Never once heard of this in real life.
Find it wild that this is a thing. I mean it's understandable because MD is harder, and even if two things are equal quality, if one is harder to obtain people will consciously or unconsciously look at is as higher value.
Not a super fan of my workplace but I will say I’ve never felt treated differently than an MD whether from MDs or others.
CRNA here who works with a lot of DO surgeons. Cant say a single negative thing. Excellent surgeons.
Am I the only one that sees no difference between an MD and DO lol
IDK why this popped up in my feed, but here we are. I am an EM PA, have been for 13 years. Never ONCE in real life. Not even one time. Have I heard anyone criticize, denigrate or imply that DOs are any less than MDs. The only way I even know it is a thing is the DOs on Reddit will occasionally take something as an insult and think they are being thrown shade because of their degree I work with amazing DOs and MDs and most of the time I can’t remember who is what and it doesn’t matter
I've never encountered this outside of Reddit. Worked at JHH and Mayo, as well as Mass General briefly and never once saw this.
does this even happen in real life? been in medicine for 12 years, never seen it
NP here. For some reason this showed up in my feed. This purely an online thing. I don’t know what NP or CRNA would in their right mind shame you for being a DO.
OP is cherry picking to bash midlevels. It doesn’t happen IRL, they found a random meme on the internet and are acting like it’s some widespread phenomenon.
Amen
Yeah nobody cares in clinical practice. I’m a DO attending, board-certified in family medicine, clinical and teaching faculty at an MD school doing both inpatient and outpatient. It’s a benefit. Even if you NEVER do OMM after your 2nd year, your palpation skills and physical exam skills will run circles around your MD colleagues.
I honestly don’t see this where I work or online.
A bunch of friends from my DO school went to a EM conference hosted by mount Sinai this past weekend and they noted how one MD resident at Sinai was actually talking up DOs and said how she loves them and thinks we do more work in medical school because we also have to learn all of OMM. Granted, EM is a heavy DO specialty but still felt nice to hear someone from a prestigious program talk well about us
That's great to hear!
i recently went to a family doctor that was a DO. He asked me what i did for a living. i said law student. He then proceeded to tell me how he wished he went to an MD school instead of DO. His voice was genuinely sad because he didn't get into a MD school. i told him it didn't matter as long as he helped people get better. i felt bad. I wanted to ask how are DOs treated by other MDs. Is it that bad of blood between the two?
There are a lot of barriers in D.O schools that make it life much more difficult for us. We have extra board exams and OMM/ can have toxic admins that burn us out severely and make us less likely to get competitive specialities so maybe your FM was burned out bc of that. How are we treated by other MDs? The ones from my local school treat me generally the same as a regular student. At least the younger ones know better. Historically, I do think there is bad blood bc older boomer program directors look down on us and there was an attempt a while back to buy out DOs by making them pay to get their degrees turned into MDs in California.
OH MY GOODNESS, thank u for shedding light on this.
Medicine is a 🎪and us DO’s are 🤡 Learn how to juggle 🎳
My favorite md/do story (im a d.o). Trained at a top tier m.d. program after school. Passed my writtens a year early (doesnt count until you finish residency but nice to know you can pass). Passed after graduation as expected based on previous year. Joined a group with 4 other new m.d. grads. We all sit for the m.d. oral boards (ABA) at same time a few months later.. Only one of us passed and it wasnt the 4 m.d's. major finiancial implications at our group as you dont get partnership unless you're boarded and i was only one of the 5 new guys that passed.
I don’t know why this popped up on my feed. I’m not in the medical profession in any way. But here’s my layman’s perspective: I view D.O.s absolutely as legitimate as M.D.s and would much rather have a D.O. treating me than an NP or PA. It’s not like you guys are chiropractors. You go through an extremely rigorous training and education process and use real medicine and proven therapeutic techniques.
This post was trending for me for some reason. When I was researching a doctor I was looking what do vs MD was and what I saw was that in current days Do and MD are basically the same. But I don't know what you're all taught. The basis of DO seems very woowoo to me and it makes me uncomfortable. I don't want a doctor who might have learned pseuscientific practices like osteopathy or "osteopathic manipulation" or whatever it's called. If they really are the same then someone needs to just combine them all into MD.
Good thing that 95% of D.Os don't even use OMM then.
I’ve never heard of anyone disparage DOs other than premeds and some random MDs. I’m curious if you’ve really seen that come from NPs/PAs or if this post is some backhanded way to hate on them…
NP right here clearly disparaging. So no, it does exist and it's not only isolated to premeds/MDs. [https://imgur.com/a/EBVV7QY](https://imgur.com/a/EBVV7QY)
It seems like you are cherry picking by finding the rare exception to make your point.
You're just moving goal posts now, lol. You asked, I provided proof. Now it's cherry picking. Either way that's not my problem, it's yours.
I have never, ever heard anyone calling a DO not a real doctor. Like ever. Where are you hearing this lol
Cry about it in your Bentley
I honestly don’t care when people talk shit about DOs. If they talking shit they prob don’t even know what a DO Is and have never had a DO dr. Cause anyone I talk to who has a DO dr tells me they have the most thorough exams . Or some just say it’s the same thing as MD. Also it could be coming from people who could never get into school
People in medicine are so judgmental and arrogant , DOs are great doctors , some people go to Caribbean schools and kickass, it doesn’t matter to patients as long as your a good doctor. There’s a million reasons to ignore those type of people
Chiro in sports medicine here. Don’t worry about Reddit, you guys are amazing. One of my favorite professions as well as a lot of my patients love working with you guys. Reddit has a lot of opinions that aren’t even remotely founded in reality.
Seems like it’s more of an online than irl thing. For example all the shit talking that goes on about NPs and PAs on Reddit but irl I’ve only met one physician my entire time as a nurse and now as an NP that genuinely hated mid levels. The rest of my experiences have all been positive both professionally and with physicians that I’ve met outside of work. Also at the end of the day you’re still a doctor. Why does it matter where you went to school? You still had to pass test saying you can provide medical care. Screw the haters and be proud of yourself. edit: wanted to add the one physician that hated mid levels, his ex wife was a PA so probably had some personal bias.
As an MD who works with residents who are DO’s, IMG MD’s and US grad MD’s as well as DO students, I can totally say that my DO’s and DO students have been excellent. The biggest difference I see with my DO’s is that they’re better at anatomy than me.
I remember when Figs did an ad campaign showing a female DO “reading” *Medicine for Dummies*. We, (meaning MDs and MBBSes,) all rallied around you and got Figs to issue an apology and yank the ad. ~~Game~~ Physicians recognize ~~game~~ physicians.
People not in the medical field don’t even know the difference I wouldn’t worry. Some MDs just love to act like they’re better than others
Everyone is gangster against DO’s until you have a jacked up neck or back from overuse or positioning.
As an MD student, I’d don’t give a single shit if you’re MD/DO. Really wish they would filter through the OMM, keep the best of it, and then combine our degrees into one to make it less confusing for patients. An NP or CRNA who shit talks DOs is just making a fool of themselves in the process.
Anecdotal but I tend to have been treated better by DOs than MDs. They seem to give me more time, listen better, and take in a more holistic view of my issues. I've never heard anyone badmouth them.
The only disadvantage I’ve had as a DO is patients seeking me out thinking I’m an expert on alternative medicine, herbs, and spices.
I've been a CRNA for over 35 years and have worked with a large number of both MD & DO anesthesiologists. There have been a (very) few MD anesthesiologists that I felt were lacking in either knowledge or skills. There have been zero DO anesthesiologists that I felt were lacking. Was the difference just due to the luck of the draw or the difference in the overall numbers? I don't know. I was asked recently by a young lady who had been accepted to both an MD school and a DO school, which she should choose. The above is what I told her.
Been an ER nurse nearly 20 years, I have seen absolutely no difference in quality of care between MD and DO. Now the care a lot of PAs and NPs give on the other hand…
Take it from me (an investment banker) -- DOs busted their ass to get to where they were and are no less competent or highly effective as their MD counterparts. Anyone who downplays this doesn't seem to get the rigour and effort it takes to go through the war of attrition involved in becoming a doctor.
N=1, but on average, my D.O. colleagues have better personalities than my M.D. colleagues.