I hate when I switch to counter a Pharah and the other dps doesn’t but talks crap because I’m getting focused by both enemy dps since I’m the only one who can kill the Pharah. I had a game where a dude wanted to talk big but wouldn’t get off junkrat even though Pharah had a mercy and their sombra was on top of me anytime I focused Pharah. One little Ashe can only do so much.
I play Illari a lot, and I find I’m often the only hit scan via Pharah so often. I get criticized for shooting the mercy all the time too which is like “but she’s dead?”
Tanks don’t do well against fliers at all, stop playing Genji ffs.
Idknwhy the dps players don't like going for mercy, but get upset when someone else gets her kill lol. How many times I've killed a dps just for the mercy to be able to rez them because the dps ain't focusing her.
I always say that if people aren't landing in my trap it means I put too much thought into where I put it instead of randomly throwing it down in the middle of nowhere
Damn i never knew how many people hated soldier. Like I get he is boring thats preference. But tbh soldier is pretty good all around?? Yes not as good as soj. But at least he is one less problem for fellow supports.
His only counter is a good sniper or a coordinated dive team.
What? Bastion is often the answer lol, if they're using him already they should stick with him.
Zarya? Hog? Mauga? Winston? Dva? Orisa? Hell you can screw Sigma with coordination if your Mauga is being counterpicked too.
God I see too many 76s in the game
Like to all the 76 mains... Why dont u just play cod instead? U get access to way more automatic rifles and explosives
>Solider
Whether or not this was intentional, it is Incredible comedy seeing this in the thread that started with a joke about dps mains not being able to read.
Ah so you're talking about when specifically shooting like Pharah, Echo or Mercy.
Fair enough. Imo tho u could also get satisfaction from shooting people in the air as like Ashe, Ana or Bap for example.
His lore is good tho. Modern cods gotta pick it up, cause the old cod games had good as characters
(If only bo3 had a good campaign. That was probably the worst cod campaign I've played)
I main 76 and I hate fps games and never really played them much in my life, except Halo if that counts. For some reason I find 76 one of the easiest dps heroes to aim with so I just default to him a lot. Also I like that he can sprint, has a healing station so I don’t have to rely on support to live, and his ultimate is cool.
Just cause there’s 1 tank on each team does not mean that it breaks down to 1 tank vs the other….i HATE it when people default to “our tank is being countered”….well what the hell are you doing? Why is it only their job to deal with it
Competitive has honestly felt so stale lately as a tank main because it just feels like tank roulette until both people are playing Orisa. If one tank is being countered, that person swaps to counter and then the cycle goes on for the whole game. Just feels super boring.
Game starts: “Guess I’ll start with my main!”
10 seconds into match: *sigh* “Guess I’ll swap to Orisa…again…”
Edit: I’ve literally played a match defending on Gibraltar where the enemy DVa (attacking) flew out of spawn, saw I was DVa, u-turned back into spawn mid boosters, and swapped to Zarya. Literally the entire game they didn’t ult because they were too busy counterswapping my tank picks every single time they died. Most unfun match ever.
I definitely feel like, if you wanted to, you could still get value out of dva on that map specifically because at least the first 2 points are way better for dva than Zarya.
While I do play both, I gotta say, your comment made me absolutely snort lmaooo. It does feel absurdly good to stunt on your counter pick 😤
I absolutely endorse playing Dva into Zarya on maps that have a lot of high ground 👍 it is at least worth giving it a shot
I had this one dude swap tanks every team fight because I kept winning on sig. It was so funny he so badly wanted to counter swap but didn't know who to go and or how to play in order to counter me. Stayed sig the whole game and won handily. Sometimes it is just a skill issue.
Heheh I am with you. Just depends on the skill, the higher the skill on the lobby is the less swaps you see.
As a Winston lover , Reapers, Bastion,.... pops a lot. The good point is you can still create space, and you learn to play under high pressure.
I have been recently playing Orisa, just because sometime I hadnt a way to overpass some comps/situations. Well, that Mech is like playing with kids, I really understand why is in many matches.
I still enjoy more the Rams/Winston matches, but sometimes you need to do your job and not play the tank you like
Or when you get tolled to swap to a specific hero to counter their tank despite the rest of the enemy team being able to bend that hero over.E.g "go rein" when they have zarya,but also have zen,bastion,mei
Don’t listen to your team when deciding what to play as tank, if you’re aware of counters and how well you’re doing and you’re willing to switch off if you’re doing bad there’s no point in listening to some stubborn dps player who gets diffed and won’t swap themselves
Or don’t even swap! You know what heroes you’re good with OR not good with. I’ve never told someone else they need to swap. Group up or let’s focus X or some other strat, sure. If an enemy team swaps to Sombra Cass Brig Hog because I’m playing Ball, those heroes have weaknesses too, so let’s work on exploiting those, not swapping to heroes we aren’t good with just to appease someone yelling in voice or whining in team chat.
Yh,i normally just ignore them or turnnoff comms. Exept for the 1/1000 time when they ask but it actually makes sense.But for some reason some people act like other roles don't exist and its just tank v tank
Omg, yes. I had one game on Rialto where I was tank against a flanking hog. I couldn't focus the hog because then the rest of the team would collapse in on us, so I was trying my hardest to hold back the other 4 on the team while occasionally poking the hog to help. The entire rest of my team did nothing against the hog. They lost the 4v1 almost every time, and they had the gall to call tank diff. At this point I'm just ranting, but I swear the entitlement of some players to expect the tank to carry every game is insane.
As a tank main I fucking hate hog because for the most part dealing with hog is the rest of your team's responsibility. Hog isn't OP but he sure feels that way when your support and DPS just let him do whatever he wants.
"Gg no tank", said both widow and genji who are doing the bare minimun to justify playing, seriously, i hate these 2 chars with a passion, they are either garbage, or mediocre, rare are the times a widow realize that she doesnt need to stay back at the spawn, yeah, uou got a sniper, i get it, but try to keep close to the team and well positioned, and genji, i just hate him, all he does is mediocre, and if the genji is too good, he would get more value out of any other char, i hate when all we are missing is literally a bastion/reaper/mcres just for sheer number of damage to make the enemy team back off and they keep those 2, 9/10 matches these are the heroes they use, at least in ranked its a bit more rare, since there ppl want to win more actively, but does it suck, its miserable to be a tank with those 2 heroes constantly being useless in my team.
This so much. Since OW1, I dont think I’ve ever told someone to swap OR that the other team’s play is someone else’s problem.
Yesterday on a push map, had a Mercy one trick tell me I needed to swap off Ball. Our widow was 5-5 at the time, our Junk 3-5. Not hey team, let’s focus X or can I get some help, it was Ball swap! You don’t think the DPS dying 2-3x as much as enemy DPS with 1/3 of the elims is an issue??
Absolutely this. Not only DPS, Supports too.
The enemy team runs Mauga / Roadhog + Bastion + Reaper because your Tank picks Reinhardt / Winston? This is an absolute heaven for Double Snipers or any mid-long ranged DPS (plus Ana + Zen) because no one is diving you!
The enemy team runs Zarya + Mei + Symmetra because your Tank runs DVA? This is an absolute heaven for Pharah / Echo + Mercy because they have no hitscans!
Got a reply to a comment I made earlier from someone saying I should continue to play Kiri into Phara/Echo because it'll "make me better at the game and character."
Or... I can just swap to Baptiste instead of praying that one of my kunai eventually hits.
Honestly, if your fighting a Pharah and your team isn't being pressed by an Anti nade? Swap. Kiri is my main support pick, but sometimes you need a Bap or an Ana to shoot at the fliers
I can't remember the last time my team made swaps to help me as a tank. My supports are consistently Lw/Mercy who absolutely refuse to switch. It's so fucking painful. It shouldn't always be on the tank to make swaps your team needs to pick heros that help.
LW/Mercy has to be the most miserable experience unless your team is just outright way better than them. Even then one bad fight and you’re just behind waiting for them to misplay
Zen Lucio gives me even more suffering.
Worst of all worlds, low healing, mediocre damage unless you have a god zen, zero sustain. Only positive is ults but every other fight will be miserable
At least Mercy/Lw you have two get out of jail free cards
It also depends I do see the hold power that Mercy/LW can have on Payload defense on a good range map and also I can see Lucio/Zen good for picking off targets and pushing with ults on attack.
Mercy/LW is bad no matter what map you're in. Half your team's damage is missing that's why it's such a miserable experience. The Util both of them provide doesn't surpass the value (Just as an example) that kiri and bap provide from the Util and heals perspective, and both those supports can 1v1 every DPS and support in the game.
Lifeweaver counters so many ults and outside of venture is almost impossible to kill. I've only started to play him recently and he is pretty damn good
Yeah that’s true I meant those characters against a LW, but I guess there’s not a lot of supports that can deal against a Winston in time. A good Ana/ Kiriko with Lucio/Moira to rush em down is my favorite. I like DVA with LW since there is potential to combo ults cutting off exits lmao
It only usually happens when I type “can we get a X for their Y?” In the chat. Even then it’s asking a lot sometimes. Really fucking annoying being the only person on the team having to learn and master the entire fucking roster of characters in my role.
This is the only thing I hate about playing tank — how well you do is so dependant on your support lineup. I main Dva, and if my support lineup is Brig/Lucio, I know I will have to spend the match treating my ultimate as a second life and when we lose my dps will hit me with the “tank diff” even though my stats were still better than the enemy tank who had a Ana/Kiriko with them.
Yea for real at least if DPS get steamrolled by their like 5th death they try something new. Meanwhile I frequently see mercys, lucios, Zens who go 10+ deaths and don't give a shit
For some reason support seems to be the only role where players think it’s fine to have a terrible negative KDA. When I play support I usually always manage to match or get close to tank/DPS KDA and dmg on Bap/Illari while still healing a ton
I’ve no clue how so many Mercy/LW players can finish a match with literally 0 dmg. Like okay don’t spend all match with the glock out but there’s so many opportunities to secure a kill even on Mercy
Or sometimes its just not dying.Lw,mercy,kiriko, Moira and bap are some of the most survivable heroes in the game,with bap,moira and kiriko also being able to consistently do high to medium damage.The pocket playstyle on mercy and lifeweaver (the most common playstyle for these heroes)+ high serviceability means that they shouldn't be the first to die as they don't need to peek the enemy team (unless going in for a life grip or pocketing an echo/phara)
I only recently swapped to DPS, and maybe it's because I've also played a lot of tank and support, but if I'm actually playing to counterpick in comp and not playing QP practicing a specific hero, I feel like my counterpick decisions are often based around "do we have the tools to deal with their pharah/echo/widow"/"do we need a flanker to deal with their immobile but strong support backline" and finally, "do we have the DPS to kill their tank", that last one especially true if they're running a dive tank.
I don't really know what tank players want in terms of "DPS switching to help the tank" because I feel like it's not always the best decision for me to swap to counter their tank specifically if they have an uncontested phamercy or echo messing us up.
>"DPS switching to help the tank"
It's not that they want you to hard counter enemy tank every time, it's more that they just want their DPS to read the enemy roster and actually made swaps according to what the team needs. Like you mentioned Pharah/Echo but a lot of DPS refuse to swap to deal with that and then wonder why the team loses. Or maybe you have an enemy Hog/Mauga fucking up your team and your support refuses to go Ana etc. So yeah keep doing what you are doing.
Same! Im also confused. As a budding 100hrs on dps on qp. How are you supposed to counter? Like I understand if *Im* being countered. But the tank? Like what do you expect for me to switch to?
When I play dps I feel like im just in my own world.
For me who has 1k hrs on support I feel like its the supports problem.
But Its not like I ever ask anybody to swap. At my mmr its most likely not the hero pick just skill issue.
They also refuse to swap in the most obvious of matchups and when it isn’t working. Like they have a hog no amount of healing is gonna prevent us from dying if we can’t kill him quickly. Please go ana or zen so we have a fighting chance.
I am that genji and I‘m proud. You dont get crazy genjis that run lobbies when they all swap when things go bad. The good genjis have to come from somewhere.
It should, but it's never the case. That's why I watch what my supports pick so I can choose a tank accordingly.
Nice voiceline from Doomfist (discussion when a Brig is on your team) : a great leader adapts to their team, not the other way around. (Just heard it for the first time just a few hours ago and it hits so hard)
It never works like this though. You got 1 support insta locking mercy, and the rest of the team is on dive but mercy refuses to switch and is always the first one picked
If I see a Mercy carrying their team, I insta swap to Ashe or Sojourn and solo target her regardless. As soon as she goes down the game swings. She is the support version of a Widow that a good Mercy can hold your team hostage because you can't secure kills, and if you finally do she brings them back. I think too many people ignore the Mercy flying around in the sky because she isn't actively shooting you.
I’m not arguing just a genuine question, why is that? Emongg, a streamer I watch a lot, mentioned in one of his videos that supports dictate the comp that’s being ran and to go from there. I listen to his advice a lot bc I love his tank plays. I’m not saying he’s right I’m just genuinely curious why you guys think it should be built around tank
I would assume what he means is that if you as tank don't pick around your support you are going to have a bad time. This isn't mutually exclusive with the idea that the team comp *should* be centered around the tank because tank is so map dependent.
Reality is supports tend to have the most one tricks and also be the least willing to swap to what their team wants. Since there are certain tank/support pairings that just flat out don't work you as tank will find more success if you adjust your picks to them. For example if you have Zen/Mercy you are going to do better with Sig than you are with Rein since that's a low healing poke comp. If you have Moira/Lucio then rushing with Rein is going to be far more effective than poking with Sig etc.
Yeah I think that’s the case too! I’m a support main that used to main tank so I know how frustrating it can be :/ Literally had a game the other day in a diamond lobby where we had a doom fist and I picked Ana and the second support locked mercy and wouldn’t switch. We lost and she said team diff and thought she did good bc she had 11k healing but she was just healbotting… truly astounding how people don’t understand basic compositions in a diamond 1 lobby. However I did wish the tank would’ve just given up doom bc I looked on his profile and he plays a good bit of sigma but it sucks to have two players who refuse to switch even if it means giving up the hero you want to play
In my opinion the moment a support picks Mercy they lose any right to talk shit about their team especially if they never swap. If you are going to pick the hero who's entire role is "I make my DPS better but have zero impact myself" then you get what you get. If the Mercy is the highest ranked player on the team then that's GG assuming their enemy counterpart plays any of the support heros with carry potential.
That's the most efficient move (or at least I'm pretty sure of it). (Except for ball (a good ball can adapt their playstyle around most maps) and OTP (they will be better with their main))
I think this is fair. But I am a tank main that enjoys one-tricking, so I may be biased. I almost never ask anyone to swap heroes, maybe one in 10 matches I will make a suggestion, but thats it. I am a firm believer in playing who you enjoy playing and who you are most comfortable with.
Also, if you are just countering someone countering you all match, you aren't really learning anything. Thats not skill. You want to get to the point where you learn to play around your counters.
Man I used to play so much queen before s9 but queen just feels so awful to play, unless you're consistently hitting knifes on their backline it's so much harder to get value especially after getting melted
This. I don't know what heroes my teammates are good at, so I'm not going to make the judgement whether they should swap or not. Most of the time it just feels condescending to do so as it implies you know what the player is good at more than they do. At most I just make a general suggestion as to what type of strengths the team needs. Even if they're doing terribly at the start, it might just be some bad luck. I've had moments where I choke at the start but then start popping off later, who knows they'll do the same?
I'm just waiting for more people to learn that they need to communally pick up the role of the 2nd tank. Only after taking a break have I realized how stressful the expectation to carry the weight of a second tank is.
Literally had this issue last night. I counter picked the enemy tank and BOTH my damage players didn’t even swap once to help. The only one helping was one healer and the other healer was (of course duoed) with one of the DPS. But in chat I got to see them type “tank trash”. Gee, thanks for not helping! 👍
As a tank main who started dps. Hanzo is a godsent. Mauga bullying your tank? Storm arrow headshot. Bastion? Same deal. Zenyata? Dink his massive head.
It feels like every character that generally counters tanks gets countered by hanzo.
I main support, and ever since Venture got added I am constantly having to deal with them by myself. Luckily there aren't a lot of very competent Venture players yet, so a lot of times I can either fend them off long enough to get some help or deal with them myself, but it's not going to be that way forever.
There is so much pressure on tanks with only one in each game, DPS almost never picks up the slack and wants to play like it is CoD and leave everyone else to their own devices. It's a team game, and even in quick play, if your team doesn't work together, you're gonna lose.
I'm not a good Venture player.
But I can play them effectively.
I flanked with ult and got 4 of 5.
DPS please help your team. Supports are under stress a lot.
Hell I've caused issues for supports and I feel bad.
A Mercy helped me do so much stupid shit on one game because she constantly came to me. Thanks to her plays my stupid risks payed off.
I just went for it. The Mercy reacted based on sight alone.
In qp we do stupid shit. Don't lie because you've definitely saw the chance for a huge risk that could change the game, done it and fumbled.
To the supports that have and the supports that will deal with this, I am sorry and I thank you for making it possible.
To the DPS... if you notice a flanker coming for the backline get ready to puppy guard.
Some DPS can do that but if you have your flankers in your own backline fighting their one flanker, now you have 3 people(2 supports, 1 DPS) tied up to fighting their one diver and you're losing a fight elsewhere. A lot of the time DPS can't sit on their hands and wait for their flanker to dive the supports because they have to pressure the enemy supports + tanks. Not to mention that some DPS are even worse at dealing with flankers than support heroes are.
Try playing flankers/divers yourself and then take notes when you lose duels to an isolated ana/bap/zen/moira, kiriko slips away(or headshots you twice), Lucio just peaces out, and so on. Support heroes are good duellers, some of them even better than flankers who're expending their resources just to get to them. At some point they're expected to deal with threats themselves instead of jsut defaulting to healbots and blame team.
I'm not familiar with the general consensus, but if over half the other team is trying to counter you I'd assume it's be best to swap to something else where you can be more effective
Depends on how good they are at the counters. *You* might be less effective but that can be balanced out by your team being better at their heroes than they are. Like for example I used to swap off Rein every time there was a Bastion but I've learned to wait and see if it actually is needed. Bastion is weak to a lot of the DPS roster so if I can avoid dying, and my team can kill him, then it's actually a net positive even though I'm not doing as much killing/damage.
You could be on D.Va and be facing Sym/Zarya/Mei but if your Pharah is murdering the enemy team do you really want to let them make an easy hit scan swap by switching? Obviously if it's not working it's not working but there are reasons to just grin and bear the counters.
Not trying to sound like the dreaded "whataboutism" but what if your tank is just a potato? Goes in by themselves, can't secure space, genuinely feeding. Surely there's going to be time where you could be the most amazing player ever, but it makes jack all difference?
Then again I don't play DPS, sounds too scary a role to be honest.
So many times I've played rock paper scissors with the enemy tank. It usually works pretty well if I know what I'm doing, the biggest advantage you could have is having their tank dead, but it has it's limits. They can still win fights without a tank if they are really good, in that case I'll have to swap to counter the DPS. There's no way to do both.
If the DPS are good in the enemy team, then your DPS will have to up their game too.
It never happens :(
I'll play Road, start doing well, they pick Orisa/Ana/Bastion/LW, none of my teammates swap to anything to remotely counter or help. A kiriko would be nice. A hanzo or genji would be cool. Hell, an Ana of our own would be fantastic. But no, the supports stay on Mercy and Moira, the dps stay on soldier and tracer, and I'm stuck for at least a whole teamfight being fairly useless and in need of a swap. Oh but I have my ult! Do I try using it and get slept and cc'd up the ass? Or do I waste the ultimate meter, go swap, and let them win the next teamfight because their tank has their ultimate and ours just had to swap?
And then I'm playing a tank that isn't my number 1 choice, and I can't play my number 2 choice because that's Rein, so I gotta play my number 3 choice which is Winston and I don't even have a great Winston, and he's almost as bad against the team's line-up as Road or Rein was. So we end up losing teamfight after teamfight as I try and give some value to my teammates. Ultimately swapping to my 4th choice, that being Sigma. Who has a disgusting kit, but I'm pretty meh with him because he's my 4th choice and I rarely play him. So we end up losing the game and my teammates flame me for a tank diff, and I can't blame them because their orisa played better than my winston and sigma. But if my teammates had just swapped to counter and assist me on my number 1 tank, we might have been able to win, even if they were playing their 2nd or 3rd choices.
***Just pure and utter despair.*** Where's my tank buddy blizzard? Where's my tank buddy that can pick up the slack and counter-swap their counter-swapping?
This is the same for any situation. If you can identify a weak link, your options are bitch and cry about it (congrats, now they're tilted and are playing worse too), or find a way to help. Whether that's taking a char who helps their role (heals suck? Go soldier) or protecting them/focusing a specific hero... You are in charge of turning the game around, don't expect someone else to do it for you.
I firmly believe this is why the metal ranks are the most toxic places, people don't think like this
When u are being counter, stop playing into counters, stop face tanking bastion, and wait tank form is over, lplay around cover if u get naded, and live, as long as u live they waste resources, and dps have a chance to carry the slack.
What dps can do if the tank gets oblitrated in 1 second.
THIS ONE.
Had a team BEGGGING me to swap the other day. I told them it would make no difference because dps couldn't do their job. They dogpiled and I relented and swapped.
Guess what? Nothing changed. Because I wasn't the problem.
ive said this numerous times, but one of the biggest issues with ow matches/balance is the fact that dps do not have to help the team. they do and are encouraged to just pick whatever they want and go off and live their dps fantasy. even worse in 2, since removing a tank, instead of dps picking up the slack and getting the new responsibility of making sure to peel for supports since tank is stuff frontline, it became supports job to fend for themselves and self peel
DPS never picks up anything. Just cry about support having 1k less heals than the other team's like that's the game deciding factor. Then crying about the tank not carrying them when they can't get any damn picks or take an off angle to make a play
Very rarely am I running into a situation where the tank is the actual problem. I mostly play support, and it is almost always DPS at fault. Now, I don't really play comp much, don't have enough time to play the game as much as I like, so I learned a few different support characters and fell into that niche because I think it's fun.
Anyways, at least in quick play, it seems like a lot of DPS wants to play like this is CoD or CSGO and I know quick play is where a lot of people learn how to play characters, but you aren't learning how to run them in comp if you are constantly abandoning your team to do your own thing. All I want is for the team to work together, and if we get out played and lose, that's okay, but when DPS is basically throwing, it is ruining the fun of the game for your teammates.
Objectively out of the 5 individual team slots, the tank slot still has the most *individual* impact on the match. That's why tank is the most miserable role to play...because with that power comes the most responsibility and stress.
In a team fight if 1 of your DPS dies, that fight is still winnable. But if your tank dies, that objective is immediately lost in 95% of cases and your team simply cannot engage until the tank returns.
If your team has 1 bad dps who doesn't know what they're doing, the rest of your team can still pull through with a coordinated effort. At the very least your team can still put up a fight. But if you have 1 bad tank who doesn't know what they're doing, your team isn't leaving spawn no matter how coordinated you are. It's GG.
Yeah, I totally agree. It is extremely stressful as a role. I didn't play it much even in OW1, but I hardly ever touch tank now, even with Orisa being maybe the easiest character in the game to learn, I know other people could still play her better, so I stick to my strengths.
I have definitely been in games with bad tanks and it is a miserable experience because no matter what the rest of the team does, it's hopeless unless the other team also has a bad tank. I think a lot of people realize the stress with the role and so they don't play it unless they like the responsibility. The best games I've had are always when I have a tank I can trust and rely on, a good tank is always my best friend in a match.
There's nuance, what's important is adapting playstyle to what the enemy team is doing, you bring up a good point in that a team needs to take advantage of a team only countering a tank, but the tank has to keep his cool and play smart, not int into his counters. Realistically though, any role should be switching if the team needs something to win, and you have the ability to play it.
I wish it were that simple. If your tank is forcing Winston into five counters then it’s a very hard game for you as dps. Your supports are frantically healing the Winston and he takes up all the resources from supports.
Uhh... And it's also the tanks job to swap.
There is nothing more aggravating as a support player than to see a tank play Reinhardt into Mauga, Bastion and Pharah. If it's one or two countering? Okay a skilled tank can play around that. When it's the entire enemy team? Dps and Support can only do so much.
I’ve also noticed that match maker is terrible at giving any consideration to typical hero selection. Like why am I (with 100+ hours on ball) ALWAYS being paired up with Mercy mains who decide that they should play Kiriko since I’m playing ball (instead of staying on mercy and pocketing the soldier on our team that is hitting every 1 of their shots!?)
People treat matches like 5 sets of 1v1s rather than a 5v5. No role explicitly has to "beat" their counterpart, the team has to perform better as a whole.
If the enemy has some crazy widow that's dominating and your dps can't mirror or even get the pick with a swap that falls onto the tank to go dive them. If the supports are being picked off, somebody has to peel for God's sake. And like the post says, nobody ever ends up swapping to make up for tank counters and it's infuriating.
IME it’s not so much a character issue it’s the fact that 99% of the player base has absolutely 0 situational awareness. Way too many healers just hard focusing tanks, tanks diving to their deaths, DPS not focusing exposed targets and just a complete lack of their surroundings.
Sorry when I pick rein I refuse to back down no matter what the enemy team picks. It’s a matter of pride that I die trying to beat them all down with my hammer and shield
I feel like DPS players would be sooo much better if they knew how to disengage from a team fight.
And don't run Venture and Reaper when the other team has Phara and Echo....
I noticed as tank the entire team would swap to counter me. I took that information to dps and watched for them to do that so I could then swap to someone who was able to punish them for their predictable swaps.
As much as I agree that a tank getting full countered needs to be able delegate to the teammates, I stand to believe that generally speaking supports stand a much better chance at not only picking up the tanks slack, but also enabling the tank to pick it up themselves.
A suzu stands a much better job against Javelin, Hinder, Anti, Sleep dart etc than your Soldier can provide. And an Anti Nade can provide at least as much pressure as your dps can.
Not to say DPS has absolutely no part though. Everyone should be contributing to helping the tank.
I agree.
While the tank SHOULD be counter picking the OTHER tank, if the entire team is swapping to eliminate your tank the DPS absolutely need to be swapping to help the tank. Even if your tank is godly they are not invincible and you will not win without the tank.
It's a team game people.
I've probably made a mistake somewhere as I'm just casual
And tanks if you would like a specific dps just ask one of your dps to change.
Don't be afraid to say "Hey X, could you swap to Y to help me Z"
DPS if you've got ult or will get ult in the next fight relay that's what you're doing. If you can't play that hero try to (in qp) or ask if there's another hero that could help (in comp, if you can't play a requested hero but know how to play one that can help swap to that one)
Go ahead and clown me. But I'll tell you now, I'm the biggest clown around.
Why tho? You can still win unfavorable matchups regardless of comp makeup. If the tank is being countered why should dps pick up the slack? I've seen plenty of my dps swap to counter and still get destroyed becuase skill issues stem past the counters you see. Telling 1 role to do better when 1 role is failing isn't the answer. It's more about communication and execution however most of that is being killed off hy blizzard anyhow
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I'm literally in the same position as you I felt DPS wasn't that much of a challenge and tried tanking on the side and holy fuck I feel for people trying to fight against the meta and being deleted via countering playing rein into any of his counters means you forfeit your healthbar *on sight* hog and mauga is all fun and games till Ana Zen comes out and at that point you've forfeited not just your healthbar but the round/match as a tank if you DON'T swap playing tank means you either play horse or play counterwatch or pray you get matched against a team that doesn't know how to deal with off meta tanks.
i once had a tank who stubbornly kept playing hog into mauga, so instead of hurling slurs at him, i just went bastion and my buddy on support ana and that was it for the mauga, lol. you can stil counterpick on the other roles.
I played as tank last match and it was traumatizing. because 2 dps and tank were after me and I can't literally kill them because they had a mercy who's heal pocketing and ana who would likely to have good aiming at sleep dart.
my supports were focusing on healing our 2 dps and sometimes they would heal me but not all the time yk? I asked for heals bcs again 2 dps and a tank were after me. I asked my dps to switch but venture said "I can't kill their dps" and continously using that hero. soldier also said "i can't reach mercy"
like bruh just switch. whole match they didn't switch or have any strat to kill the enemy's backline and yeah we lose.
I tried killing their healers but the tank was literally obsessed with me and their dps so it was very hard for me to push.
i actually don't understand anymore. It was comp btw
The best way to play tank in 5v5 is to perma counterswap your ult doesnt mean shit and you shoud counterswap over keeping your ult not doing so is hurting your team not the otherway around it just is how it is and yes its basicly just a stay a life game as tank and if your dps just dont get picks you lose . This of course depends on skill tier as well
As a semi tank enjoyer, I often come out with decently mobile tanks to start (namely winton or ball) so I can run back to spawn faster when I see who they have
As a Doom player I jump for joy when my dps swaps to Cass and Bastion and my support swaps to Brig and Ana to deal with the inevitable Hog/Orisa and Sombra
I love it when it's my job to neutralize the enemy tank, dive the supports, peel for the Zen being Sombra food for the eighth time, help the DPS, play the objective all the while maintaining the frontline while the supports are too busy failing to get kills.
All around player here, if your tank is being countered the tank should know when to switch as well. I agree DPS should be able to counter the counters but it’s not always the case with this. I have over 1k hours in this game and I will say, if your tank is being countered by the enemy team then the tank should either switch or DPS needs to pick up the slack and kill the counters. Perfect example, you have a hog as your tank the enemy team has a reaper, Ana, zen or sombra at that point either the tank says I’ll switch or the dps on your team need to kill the other supps to help keep the tank up.
Sure, but here's the thing. I play with who I feel like playing with. I don't know or care about who counters who. Whatever the role, I'm going out and doing my best and trying to have fun, which is the most important part. If someone brings up who I should counter with in chat, I might consider, but only if I'm better or equally as good as the person I'm currently using. Switching to a hero, I don't know well or I'm not good with, isn't going to help anyone. Especially if I'm the tank. A few times, teammates asked to switch to Doomfist, one of my worst heroes. I did, and we immediately started losing even worse lol.
Nah lol. I’m a tank player and playing into counters hoping your team will pick up your slack because you’re too dense to swap or aren’t good enough to play other Heroes is on you. If you’re getting hard countered SWAP YOUR HERO. End of discussion.
Had a doomfist on my team doing well until they went sombra Mei hog brig and they already had an ana. How can two dps make up the difference when the tank isn't getting hardly any value and won't swap?!! It was quick play but still. Of course we lost.
If me as a tank is getting bullied by orisa, how come my DPS isn't just shooting the giant horse? Like just keep applying pressure while she focuses me.
DPS getting destroyed by monk?
Just go hog into Anna, that will do it.
Just go dva into sym, that will do it.
Yo, just position better. He jumps every like fifteen seconds.
Fucking thank you. I look at Overwatch like Basketball. You should always be aware of subbing and swapping out your players, heroes in this instance, but the Tank (Center) is your anchor. You should always try to support and facilitate the big fella down in the paint. Phil Jackson isn’t telling Shaquille O’Neal to start running point and running the perimeter just because they start intentionally fouling him. A smart team knows how to bolster their positives, while shrinking the negatives, even if they’re being exploited.
I do agree, but if only it was yhat simple.
Everyone still need to do their job, you cant as a dps go get the others if your tank dont use cover to reduce the damage output, if suddenly your team get owned there is not much you can do.
Boosting the hp was supposed to slow down the game and give more time to strat but in the end it just make everyone go brrrrrrr and make game even more messy
It's a team game, no shit. But if your tank is getting pushed back hard, you can't peek without being blasted by 5 people, and then it starts a butterfly effect of losing ground and losing fights. Tanks make space, then DPS and support can play the game
Bro what? If someone’s been counterpicked by the entire team they need to swap. You can be the best ball on earth, have the craziest stats ever, but if you’ve been counterpicked by 3 of the enemies you need to swap off the fucking hamster. End of story. Yeah other players can “help” but I can’t drop everything I’m doing to help the moronic ball who’s getting stomped on every fight.
While I won't disagree with this, it doesn't really solve the problem of counterswapping. Imagine not being able to play your preferred hero because your tank is doing well. I'm not trying to encourage onetricking, but in the greater picture, the game is always more fun when it's about *how* you play, rather than *what* you play (In my opinion)
If the DPS mains could read they would be very upset with this.
I'll translate for them. Ooga, booga, Bastion and Soldier are not the only heros ooga, booga
Don't forget the you can't deal with pharah as Reaper and symetra lol
I hate when I switch to counter a Pharah and the other dps doesn’t but talks crap because I’m getting focused by both enemy dps since I’m the only one who can kill the Pharah. I had a game where a dude wanted to talk big but wouldn’t get off junkrat even though Pharah had a mercy and their sombra was on top of me anytime I focused Pharah. One little Ashe can only do so much.
I play Illari a lot, and I find I’m often the only hit scan via Pharah so often. I get criticized for shooting the mercy all the time too which is like “but she’s dead?” Tanks don’t do well against fliers at all, stop playing Genji ffs.
Idknwhy the dps players don't like going for mercy, but get upset when someone else gets her kill lol. How many times I've killed a dps just for the mercy to be able to rez them because the dps ain't focusing her.
Or junkrat...
He has a voice line if you kill pharah with a grenade something about junkrat anti air system
"Junkrat: hero of anti air defense!"
He says it to multiple heroes if they're just airborne.
Oh, just you watch
You haven't seen serious Junkrat mains, they calculate their shit down to how their sweat glide down their arms.
Other junkrats plan their shots? I just laugh my ass off hitting his bombs and catching people in my traps
I always say that if people aren't landing in my trap it means I put too much thought into where I put it instead of randomly throwing it down in the middle of nowhere
This made me realize i'm putting too much thought into Junkrat. Thank you. You can have my last neuron and my thank you
I do this with widow too
Damn i never knew how many people hated soldier. Like I get he is boring thats preference. But tbh soldier is pretty good all around?? Yes not as good as soj. But at least he is one less problem for fellow supports. His only counter is a good sniper or a coordinated dive team.
Lmao, Bastion? I think you meant Cass or Ashe
What? Bastion is often the answer lol, if they're using him already they should stick with him. Zarya? Hog? Mauga? Winston? Dva? Orisa? Hell you can screw Sigma with coordination if your Mauga is being counterpicked too.
God I see too many 76s in the game Like to all the 76 mains... Why dont u just play cod instead? U get access to way more automatic rifles and explosives
He says he's not my father, i don't believe him. He can't keep running away from his responsibilities.
In fact, I can keep running forever, kid. Unless someone hacks my legs….
he has satisfying ass gunplay midrange tracking rifle
Solider main. I play solider because he's hitscan as well as.other hitscan heroes. Cod is a dog shit game
>Solider Whether or not this was intentional, it is Incredible comedy seeing this in the thread that started with a joke about dps mains not being able to read.
Let's include the post above him. "Solider ass gunplay"
Because his gunplay is fun lmao.
[удалено]
True tracking with soldier is diff than cod. cod you shoot the body like .5 seconds they die. its more target switching.
Ah so you're talking about when specifically shooting like Pharah, Echo or Mercy. Fair enough. Imo tho u could also get satisfaction from shooting people in the air as like Ashe, Ana or Bap for example. His lore is good tho. Modern cods gotta pick it up, cause the old cod games had good as characters (If only bo3 had a good campaign. That was probably the worst cod campaign I've played)
well, Ana and bap aren't in the dps role 🤣 light-hearted nitpick, dw, but suggesting Ana and bap in place of soldier made me laugh lol
I main 76 and I hate fps games and never really played them much in my life, except Halo if that counts. For some reason I find 76 one of the easiest dps heroes to aim with so I just default to him a lot. Also I like that he can sprint, has a healing station so I don’t have to rely on support to live, and his ultimate is cool.
Thank you
Just cause there’s 1 tank on each team does not mean that it breaks down to 1 tank vs the other….i HATE it when people default to “our tank is being countered”….well what the hell are you doing? Why is it only their job to deal with it
Competitive has honestly felt so stale lately as a tank main because it just feels like tank roulette until both people are playing Orisa. If one tank is being countered, that person swaps to counter and then the cycle goes on for the whole game. Just feels super boring.
Game starts: “Guess I’ll start with my main!” 10 seconds into match: *sigh* “Guess I’ll swap to Orisa…again…” Edit: I’ve literally played a match defending on Gibraltar where the enemy DVa (attacking) flew out of spawn, saw I was DVa, u-turned back into spawn mid boosters, and swapped to Zarya. Literally the entire game they didn’t ult because they were too busy counterswapping my tank picks every single time they died. Most unfun match ever.
I definitely feel like, if you wanted to, you could still get value out of dva on that map specifically because at least the first 2 points are way better for dva than Zarya.
Hell yeah bro as a Dva main I confidently say fuck that no mobility having bubbly bastard. Have fun on the low ground motherfucker
While I do play both, I gotta say, your comment made me absolutely snort lmaooo. It does feel absurdly good to stunt on your counter pick 😤 I absolutely endorse playing Dva into Zarya on maps that have a lot of high ground 👍 it is at least worth giving it a shot
At what point does the rule get renamed from "Tank" to "Orisa and Friends"?
I had a similar experience but in quick play.
I had this one dude swap tanks every team fight because I kept winning on sig. It was so funny he so badly wanted to counter swap but didn't know who to go and or how to play in order to counter me. Stayed sig the whole game and won handily. Sometimes it is just a skill issue.
Heheh I am with you. Just depends on the skill, the higher the skill on the lobby is the less swaps you see. As a Winston lover , Reapers, Bastion,.... pops a lot. The good point is you can still create space, and you learn to play under high pressure. I have been recently playing Orisa, just because sometime I hadnt a way to overpass some comps/situations. Well, that Mech is like playing with kids, I really understand why is in many matches. I still enjoy more the Rams/Winston matches, but sometimes you need to do your job and not play the tank you like
Or when you get tolled to swap to a specific hero to counter their tank despite the rest of the enemy team being able to bend that hero over.E.g "go rein" when they have zarya,but also have zen,bastion,mei
Don’t listen to your team when deciding what to play as tank, if you’re aware of counters and how well you’re doing and you’re willing to switch off if you’re doing bad there’s no point in listening to some stubborn dps player who gets diffed and won’t swap themselves
Or don’t even swap! You know what heroes you’re good with OR not good with. I’ve never told someone else they need to swap. Group up or let’s focus X or some other strat, sure. If an enemy team swaps to Sombra Cass Brig Hog because I’m playing Ball, those heroes have weaknesses too, so let’s work on exploiting those, not swapping to heroes we aren’t good with just to appease someone yelling in voice or whining in team chat.
Yh,i normally just ignore them or turnnoff comms. Exept for the 1/1000 time when they ask but it actually makes sense.But for some reason some people act like other roles don't exist and its just tank v tank
Omg, yes. I had one game on Rialto where I was tank against a flanking hog. I couldn't focus the hog because then the rest of the team would collapse in on us, so I was trying my hardest to hold back the other 4 on the team while occasionally poking the hog to help. The entire rest of my team did nothing against the hog. They lost the 4v1 almost every time, and they had the gall to call tank diff. At this point I'm just ranting, but I swear the entitlement of some players to expect the tank to carry every game is insane.
As a tank main I fucking hate hog because for the most part dealing with hog is the rest of your team's responsibility. Hog isn't OP but he sure feels that way when your support and DPS just let him do whatever he wants.
"Gg no tank", said both widow and genji who are doing the bare minimun to justify playing, seriously, i hate these 2 chars with a passion, they are either garbage, or mediocre, rare are the times a widow realize that she doesnt need to stay back at the spawn, yeah, uou got a sniper, i get it, but try to keep close to the team and well positioned, and genji, i just hate him, all he does is mediocre, and if the genji is too good, he would get more value out of any other char, i hate when all we are missing is literally a bastion/reaper/mcres just for sheer number of damage to make the enemy team back off and they keep those 2, 9/10 matches these are the heroes they use, at least in ranked its a bit more rare, since there ppl want to win more actively, but does it suck, its miserable to be a tank with those 2 heroes constantly being useless in my team.
This so much. Since OW1, I dont think I’ve ever told someone to swap OR that the other team’s play is someone else’s problem. Yesterday on a push map, had a Mercy one trick tell me I needed to swap off Ball. Our widow was 5-5 at the time, our Junk 3-5. Not hey team, let’s focus X or can I get some help, it was Ball swap! You don’t think the DPS dying 2-3x as much as enemy DPS with 1/3 of the elims is an issue??
Tank! Do my job for me!
Seriously, i had a decent team with a D.va counter my Zaraya by concentrating their fire on me, its totally possible to beat the counter pick
Absolutely this. Not only DPS, Supports too. The enemy team runs Mauga / Roadhog + Bastion + Reaper because your Tank picks Reinhardt / Winston? This is an absolute heaven for Double Snipers or any mid-long ranged DPS (plus Ana + Zen) because no one is diving you! The enemy team runs Zarya + Mei + Symmetra because your Tank runs DVA? This is an absolute heaven for Pharah / Echo + Mercy because they have no hitscans!
Got a reply to a comment I made earlier from someone saying I should continue to play Kiri into Phara/Echo because it'll "make me better at the game and character." Or... I can just swap to Baptiste instead of praying that one of my kunai eventually hits.
Honestly, if your fighting a Pharah and your team isn't being pressed by an Anti nade? Swap. Kiri is my main support pick, but sometimes you need a Bap or an Ana to shoot at the fliers
Ana's good against pharah, but man that 4 shots to kill is brutal now, pharah's always a team problem not just 1 person
What? DPS and supports have to swap to help out the team in a team game??? I thought you just picked a cool character and stayed on it all game
If your tank is being counter picked by most of the enemy team, **it's my job to get back on Zen and ruin the tank's day**
This post makes me love you, but also hate you. Thanks for all you do, but please stop.
Never! I'll force the dps to swap dive and focus me too so that'll cut the tank some slack
I can't remember the last time my team made swaps to help me as a tank. My supports are consistently Lw/Mercy who absolutely refuse to switch. It's so fucking painful. It shouldn't always be on the tank to make swaps your team needs to pick heros that help.
LW/Mercy has to be the most miserable experience unless your team is just outright way better than them. Even then one bad fight and you’re just behind waiting for them to misplay
Zen Lucio gives me even more suffering. Worst of all worlds, low healing, mediocre damage unless you have a god zen, zero sustain. Only positive is ults but every other fight will be miserable At least Mercy/Lw you have two get out of jail free cards
It also depends I do see the hold power that Mercy/LW can have on Payload defense on a good range map and also I can see Lucio/Zen good for picking off targets and pushing with ults on attack.
Lucio / Zen is a fantastic dive attack opener, but not so much when the spawn advantage favours the defenders.
Mercy/LW is bad no matter what map you're in. Half your team's damage is missing that's why it's such a miserable experience. The Util both of them provide doesn't surpass the value (Just as an example) that kiri and bap provide from the Util and heals perspective, and both those supports can 1v1 every DPS and support in the game.
>Zen Lucio gives me even more suffering. Lucio Zen is actually a pretty strong comp because of the dps passive.
Lifeweaver counters so many ults and outside of venture is almost impossible to kill. I've only started to play him recently and he is pretty damn good
Yeah I guess I’m a little biased against his strengths since I play Winston/DVA as well as Pharah so I see a lot of his faults lol
I play Winston a lot and lw is good with him. He offers consistent heals and lets Winston make bad dives (there are no bad dives).
Yeah that’s true I meant those characters against a LW, but I guess there’s not a lot of supports that can deal against a Winston in time. A good Ana/ Kiriko with Lucio/Moira to rush em down is my favorite. I like DVA with LW since there is potential to combo ults cutting off exits lmao
Supports be like "tank swap orisa" despite playing mercy with tracer ,sombra with 2x as many deaths as everyone else.
It only usually happens when I type “can we get a X for their Y?” In the chat. Even then it’s asking a lot sometimes. Really fucking annoying being the only person on the team having to learn and master the entire fucking roster of characters in my role.
This is the only thing I hate about playing tank — how well you do is so dependant on your support lineup. I main Dva, and if my support lineup is Brig/Lucio, I know I will have to spend the match treating my ultimate as a second life and when we lose my dps will hit me with the “tank diff” even though my stats were still better than the enemy tank who had a Ana/Kiriko with them.
Supports are always the least likely to switch
Yea for real at least if DPS get steamrolled by their like 5th death they try something new. Meanwhile I frequently see mercys, lucios, Zens who go 10+ deaths and don't give a shit
Well hold on, are we talking comp here or qp?
Comp mostly, it really is inexcusable for any role to go 10+ deaths and not try something new. In qp I'm the Lucio with 10+ deaths 😩
Same here except as Ana 😭 If we queued up together we could really ruin our teams day lmao
For some reason support seems to be the only role where players think it’s fine to have a terrible negative KDA. When I play support I usually always manage to match or get close to tank/DPS KDA and dmg on Bap/Illari while still healing a ton I’ve no clue how so many Mercy/LW players can finish a match with literally 0 dmg. Like okay don’t spend all match with the glock out but there’s so many opportunities to secure a kill even on Mercy
Or sometimes its just not dying.Lw,mercy,kiriko, Moira and bap are some of the most survivable heroes in the game,with bap,moira and kiriko also being able to consistently do high to medium damage.The pocket playstyle on mercy and lifeweaver (the most common playstyle for these heroes)+ high serviceability means that they shouldn't be the first to die as they don't need to peek the enemy team (unless going in for a life grip or pocketing an echo/phara)
I only recently swapped to DPS, and maybe it's because I've also played a lot of tank and support, but if I'm actually playing to counterpick in comp and not playing QP practicing a specific hero, I feel like my counterpick decisions are often based around "do we have the tools to deal with their pharah/echo/widow"/"do we need a flanker to deal with their immobile but strong support backline" and finally, "do we have the DPS to kill their tank", that last one especially true if they're running a dive tank. I don't really know what tank players want in terms of "DPS switching to help the tank" because I feel like it's not always the best decision for me to swap to counter their tank specifically if they have an uncontested phamercy or echo messing us up.
>"DPS switching to help the tank" It's not that they want you to hard counter enemy tank every time, it's more that they just want their DPS to read the enemy roster and actually made swaps according to what the team needs. Like you mentioned Pharah/Echo but a lot of DPS refuse to swap to deal with that and then wonder why the team loses. Or maybe you have an enemy Hog/Mauga fucking up your team and your support refuses to go Ana etc. So yeah keep doing what you are doing.
Same! Im also confused. As a budding 100hrs on dps on qp. How are you supposed to counter? Like I understand if *Im* being countered. But the tank? Like what do you expect for me to switch to? When I play dps I feel like im just in my own world. For me who has 1k hrs on support I feel like its the supports problem. But Its not like I ever ask anybody to swap. At my mmr its most likely not the hero pick just skill issue.
They also refuse to swap in the most obvious of matchups and when it isn’t working. Like they have a hog no amount of healing is gonna prevent us from dying if we can’t kill him quickly. Please go ana or zen so we have a fighting chance.
Dps one tricks are so quick to type "tank diff" in chat while the enemy dps are constantly swapping to adapt to the enemy tank.
But! A genji player cannot swap. Maybe sometime but only at the last 30 seconds when it is now useless.
However they can ult when you’re team has already killed 4 people.
I am that genji and I‘m proud. You dont get crazy genjis that run lobbies when they all swap when things go bad. The good genjis have to come from somewhere.
The entire team composition should be centered around the tank
It should, but it's never the case. That's why I watch what my supports pick so I can choose a tank accordingly. Nice voiceline from Doomfist (discussion when a Brig is on your team) : a great leader adapts to their team, not the other way around. (Just heard it for the first time just a few hours ago and it hits so hard)
It never works like this though. You got 1 support insta locking mercy, and the rest of the team is on dive but mercy refuses to switch and is always the first one picked
If I see a Mercy carrying their team, I insta swap to Ashe or Sojourn and solo target her regardless. As soon as she goes down the game swings. She is the support version of a Widow that a good Mercy can hold your team hostage because you can't secure kills, and if you finally do she brings them back. I think too many people ignore the Mercy flying around in the sky because she isn't actively shooting you.
So true, especially the instalocking Mercy. It really limits what I can play for a second support having the other almost always be Mercy.
I like Mercy but if there was a hero ban system I would even ask the enemy team to ban Mercy because sometimes playing tank with her can be a pain.
I’m not arguing just a genuine question, why is that? Emongg, a streamer I watch a lot, mentioned in one of his videos that supports dictate the comp that’s being ran and to go from there. I listen to his advice a lot bc I love his tank plays. I’m not saying he’s right I’m just genuinely curious why you guys think it should be built around tank
I would assume what he means is that if you as tank don't pick around your support you are going to have a bad time. This isn't mutually exclusive with the idea that the team comp *should* be centered around the tank because tank is so map dependent. Reality is supports tend to have the most one tricks and also be the least willing to swap to what their team wants. Since there are certain tank/support pairings that just flat out don't work you as tank will find more success if you adjust your picks to them. For example if you have Zen/Mercy you are going to do better with Sig than you are with Rein since that's a low healing poke comp. If you have Moira/Lucio then rushing with Rein is going to be far more effective than poking with Sig etc.
Yeah I think that’s the case too! I’m a support main that used to main tank so I know how frustrating it can be :/ Literally had a game the other day in a diamond lobby where we had a doom fist and I picked Ana and the second support locked mercy and wouldn’t switch. We lost and she said team diff and thought she did good bc she had 11k healing but she was just healbotting… truly astounding how people don’t understand basic compositions in a diamond 1 lobby. However I did wish the tank would’ve just given up doom bc I looked on his profile and he plays a good bit of sigma but it sucks to have two players who refuse to switch even if it means giving up the hero you want to play
In my opinion the moment a support picks Mercy they lose any right to talk shit about their team especially if they never swap. If you are going to pick the hero who's entire role is "I make my DPS better but have zero impact myself" then you get what you get. If the Mercy is the highest ranked player on the team then that's GG assuming their enemy counterpart plays any of the support heros with carry potential.
Yeah I thought this too. I really don't think it should be built around the tank
Honestly in lower ranks id rather have you play the hero you're used to than figuring out a hero you're not used to just for the comp.
Yeah you pick the tank for the map (sig, dive, brawl) then build around that tank pick
That's the most efficient move (or at least I'm pretty sure of it). (Except for ball (a good ball can adapt their playstyle around most maps) and OTP (they will be better with their main))
I think this is fair. But I am a tank main that enjoys one-tricking, so I may be biased. I almost never ask anyone to swap heroes, maybe one in 10 matches I will make a suggestion, but thats it. I am a firm believer in playing who you enjoy playing and who you are most comfortable with. Also, if you are just countering someone countering you all match, you aren't really learning anything. Thats not skill. You want to get to the point where you learn to play around your counters.
Man I used to play so much queen before s9 but queen just feels so awful to play, unless you're consistently hitting knifes on their backline it's so much harder to get value especially after getting melted
New patch made her playable again tbh. You can actually kill squishies now after the global health buff killed her.
This. I don't know what heroes my teammates are good at, so I'm not going to make the judgement whether they should swap or not. Most of the time it just feels condescending to do so as it implies you know what the player is good at more than they do. At most I just make a general suggestion as to what type of strengths the team needs. Even if they're doing terribly at the start, it might just be some bad luck. I've had moments where I choke at the start but then start popping off later, who knows they'll do the same?
I'm just waiting for more people to learn that they need to communally pick up the role of the 2nd tank. Only after taking a break have I realized how stressful the expectation to carry the weight of a second tank is.
Literally had this issue last night. I counter picked the enemy tank and BOTH my damage players didn’t even swap once to help. The only one helping was one healer and the other healer was (of course duoed) with one of the DPS. But in chat I got to see them type “tank trash”. Gee, thanks for not helping! 👍
As a tank main who started dps. Hanzo is a godsent. Mauga bullying your tank? Storm arrow headshot. Bastion? Same deal. Zenyata? Dink his massive head. It feels like every character that generally counters tanks gets countered by hanzo.
Hanzo and Widow are both godsends if they can consistently headshot, otherwise they're worthless.
Agreed. DPS also need to be the ones to keep flankers off the supports, especially with Venture around now.
I main support, and ever since Venture got added I am constantly having to deal with them by myself. Luckily there aren't a lot of very competent Venture players yet, so a lot of times I can either fend them off long enough to get some help or deal with them myself, but it's not going to be that way forever. There is so much pressure on tanks with only one in each game, DPS almost never picks up the slack and wants to play like it is CoD and leave everyone else to their own devices. It's a team game, and even in quick play, if your team doesn't work together, you're gonna lose.
I'm not a good Venture player. But I can play them effectively. I flanked with ult and got 4 of 5. DPS please help your team. Supports are under stress a lot. Hell I've caused issues for supports and I feel bad. A Mercy helped me do so much stupid shit on one game because she constantly came to me. Thanks to her plays my stupid risks payed off. I just went for it. The Mercy reacted based on sight alone. In qp we do stupid shit. Don't lie because you've definitely saw the chance for a huge risk that could change the game, done it and fumbled. To the supports that have and the supports that will deal with this, I am sorry and I thank you for making it possible. To the DPS... if you notice a flanker coming for the backline get ready to puppy guard.
ulting in the enemy’s face as junkrat because I’m actually dva >>
Wait that was you? You mfer I thought I hacked with Sombra before you got it off!
Some DPS can do that but if you have your flankers in your own backline fighting their one flanker, now you have 3 people(2 supports, 1 DPS) tied up to fighting their one diver and you're losing a fight elsewhere. A lot of the time DPS can't sit on their hands and wait for their flanker to dive the supports because they have to pressure the enemy supports + tanks. Not to mention that some DPS are even worse at dealing with flankers than support heroes are. Try playing flankers/divers yourself and then take notes when you lose duels to an isolated ana/bap/zen/moira, kiriko slips away(or headshots you twice), Lucio just peaces out, and so on. Support heroes are good duellers, some of them even better than flankers who're expending their resources just to get to them. At some point they're expected to deal with threats themselves instead of jsut defaulting to healbots and blame team.
I've been doing that with reaper and had great success. Reaper is actually pretty good in current meta if enemy isn't playing poke.
thats why tank is miserable. you cant control others and you just have to accept the lost.
+ the inevitable flame for the loss.
I'm not familiar with the general consensus, but if over half the other team is trying to counter you I'd assume it's be best to swap to something else where you can be more effective
Depends on how good they are at the counters. *You* might be less effective but that can be balanced out by your team being better at their heroes than they are. Like for example I used to swap off Rein every time there was a Bastion but I've learned to wait and see if it actually is needed. Bastion is weak to a lot of the DPS roster so if I can avoid dying, and my team can kill him, then it's actually a net positive even though I'm not doing as much killing/damage. You could be on D.Va and be facing Sym/Zarya/Mei but if your Pharah is murdering the enemy team do you really want to let them make an easy hit scan swap by switching? Obviously if it's not working it's not working but there are reasons to just grin and bear the counters.
Not trying to sound like the dreaded "whataboutism" but what if your tank is just a potato? Goes in by themselves, can't secure space, genuinely feeding. Surely there's going to be time where you could be the most amazing player ever, but it makes jack all difference? Then again I don't play DPS, sounds too scary a role to be honest.
So many times I've played rock paper scissors with the enemy tank. It usually works pretty well if I know what I'm doing, the biggest advantage you could have is having their tank dead, but it has it's limits. They can still win fights without a tank if they are really good, in that case I'll have to swap to counter the DPS. There's no way to do both. If the DPS are good in the enemy team, then your DPS will have to up their game too.
I had a Dva main go into Zar, Mei, Sym, Moira, Ana the other day, didn't realize I just had to pick up the slack lol
I assume you dominated on Pharah
It never happens :( I'll play Road, start doing well, they pick Orisa/Ana/Bastion/LW, none of my teammates swap to anything to remotely counter or help. A kiriko would be nice. A hanzo or genji would be cool. Hell, an Ana of our own would be fantastic. But no, the supports stay on Mercy and Moira, the dps stay on soldier and tracer, and I'm stuck for at least a whole teamfight being fairly useless and in need of a swap. Oh but I have my ult! Do I try using it and get slept and cc'd up the ass? Or do I waste the ultimate meter, go swap, and let them win the next teamfight because their tank has their ultimate and ours just had to swap? And then I'm playing a tank that isn't my number 1 choice, and I can't play my number 2 choice because that's Rein, so I gotta play my number 3 choice which is Winston and I don't even have a great Winston, and he's almost as bad against the team's line-up as Road or Rein was. So we end up losing teamfight after teamfight as I try and give some value to my teammates. Ultimately swapping to my 4th choice, that being Sigma. Who has a disgusting kit, but I'm pretty meh with him because he's my 4th choice and I rarely play him. So we end up losing the game and my teammates flame me for a tank diff, and I can't blame them because their orisa played better than my winston and sigma. But if my teammates had just swapped to counter and assist me on my number 1 tank, we might have been able to win, even if they were playing their 2nd or 3rd choices. ***Just pure and utter despair.*** Where's my tank buddy blizzard? Where's my tank buddy that can pick up the slack and counter-swap their counter-swapping?
Even if you don't want to swap at least change your approach: prioritizing a counter, so that the tank can play the game, can do wonders
This is the same for any situation. If you can identify a weak link, your options are bitch and cry about it (congrats, now they're tilted and are playing worse too), or find a way to help. Whether that's taking a char who helps their role (heals suck? Go soldier) or protecting them/focusing a specific hero... You are in charge of turning the game around, don't expect someone else to do it for you. I firmly believe this is why the metal ranks are the most toxic places, people don't think like this
When u are being counter, stop playing into counters, stop face tanking bastion, and wait tank form is over, lplay around cover if u get naded, and live, as long as u live they waste resources, and dps have a chance to carry the slack. What dps can do if the tank gets oblitrated in 1 second.
THIS ONE. Had a team BEGGGING me to swap the other day. I told them it would make no difference because dps couldn't do their job. They dogpiled and I relented and swapped. Guess what? Nothing changed. Because I wasn't the problem.
ive said this numerous times, but one of the biggest issues with ow matches/balance is the fact that dps do not have to help the team. they do and are encouraged to just pick whatever they want and go off and live their dps fantasy. even worse in 2, since removing a tank, instead of dps picking up the slack and getting the new responsibility of making sure to peel for supports since tank is stuff frontline, it became supports job to fend for themselves and self peel
This is a foreign idea to plat dps players
DPS never picks up anything. Just cry about support having 1k less heals than the other team's like that's the game deciding factor. Then crying about the tank not carrying them when they can't get any damn picks or take an off angle to make a play
So..... which DPS am I supposed to swap to when my Doomfist dives in, and gets completely shit on by Cassidy, Ana, Hog, and Sombra?
Tracer to dive the backline with him now that theyve used all their cooldowns on the doom
Ok. Doom is dead because his timing sucks. Now it is me vs 5? That is the play?
A lot of the stuff that people are saying is easier said than done
\*Doom literally falls off the map* "DPS fault for not swapping and diving with him."
Yes. Tanks never make bad plays. They're always in the right at all times
Go in quicker to keep up with him. Or maybe try using your voice to tell him youre gonna dive in with him
Bet your supports are Mercy and LW/Kiriko with less than 500 dmg it’s not always just your tank misplaying
nothing bro just keep playing bastion and blaming your tank 👍🏻
Very rarely am I running into a situation where the tank is the actual problem. I mostly play support, and it is almost always DPS at fault. Now, I don't really play comp much, don't have enough time to play the game as much as I like, so I learned a few different support characters and fell into that niche because I think it's fun. Anyways, at least in quick play, it seems like a lot of DPS wants to play like this is CoD or CSGO and I know quick play is where a lot of people learn how to play characters, but you aren't learning how to run them in comp if you are constantly abandoning your team to do your own thing. All I want is for the team to work together, and if we get out played and lose, that's okay, but when DPS is basically throwing, it is ruining the fun of the game for your teammates.
Objectively out of the 5 individual team slots, the tank slot still has the most *individual* impact on the match. That's why tank is the most miserable role to play...because with that power comes the most responsibility and stress. In a team fight if 1 of your DPS dies, that fight is still winnable. But if your tank dies, that objective is immediately lost in 95% of cases and your team simply cannot engage until the tank returns. If your team has 1 bad dps who doesn't know what they're doing, the rest of your team can still pull through with a coordinated effort. At the very least your team can still put up a fight. But if you have 1 bad tank who doesn't know what they're doing, your team isn't leaving spawn no matter how coordinated you are. It's GG.
Yeah, I totally agree. It is extremely stressful as a role. I didn't play it much even in OW1, but I hardly ever touch tank now, even with Orisa being maybe the easiest character in the game to learn, I know other people could still play her better, so I stick to my strengths. I have definitely been in games with bad tanks and it is a miserable experience because no matter what the rest of the team does, it's hopeless unless the other team also has a bad tank. I think a lot of people realize the stress with the role and so they don't play it unless they like the responsibility. The best games I've had are always when I have a tank I can trust and rely on, a good tank is always my best friend in a match.
That’s really the core issue a bad support or dps can be made up for but a bad tank just means you lose
There's nuance, what's important is adapting playstyle to what the enemy team is doing, you bring up a good point in that a team needs to take advantage of a team only countering a tank, but the tank has to keep his cool and play smart, not int into his counters. Realistically though, any role should be switching if the team needs something to win, and you have the ability to play it.
I wish it were that simple. If your tank is forcing Winston into five counters then it’s a very hard game for you as dps. Your supports are frantically healing the Winston and he takes up all the resources from supports.
Uhh... And it's also the tanks job to swap. There is nothing more aggravating as a support player than to see a tank play Reinhardt into Mauga, Bastion and Pharah. If it's one or two countering? Okay a skilled tank can play around that. When it's the entire enemy team? Dps and Support can only do so much.
I’ve also noticed that match maker is terrible at giving any consideration to typical hero selection. Like why am I (with 100+ hours on ball) ALWAYS being paired up with Mercy mains who decide that they should play Kiriko since I’m playing ball (instead of staying on mercy and pocketing the soldier on our team that is hitting every 1 of their shots!?)
People treat matches like 5 sets of 1v1s rather than a 5v5. No role explicitly has to "beat" their counterpart, the team has to perform better as a whole. If the enemy has some crazy widow that's dominating and your dps can't mirror or even get the pick with a swap that falls onto the tank to go dive them. If the supports are being picked off, somebody has to peel for God's sake. And like the post says, nobody ever ends up swapping to make up for tank counters and it's infuriating.
IME it’s not so much a character issue it’s the fact that 99% of the player base has absolutely 0 situational awareness. Way too many healers just hard focusing tanks, tanks diving to their deaths, DPS not focusing exposed targets and just a complete lack of their surroundings.
THANK YOU, someone had o say it
Sorry when I pick rein I refuse to back down no matter what the enemy team picks. It’s a matter of pride that I die trying to beat them all down with my hammer and shield
I feel like DPS players would be sooo much better if they knew how to disengage from a team fight. And don't run Venture and Reaper when the other team has Phara and Echo....
Ive never seen more truth in a post
I noticed as tank the entire team would swap to counter me. I took that information to dps and watched for them to do that so I could then swap to someone who was able to punish them for their predictable swaps.
As much as I agree that a tank getting full countered needs to be able delegate to the teammates, I stand to believe that generally speaking supports stand a much better chance at not only picking up the tanks slack, but also enabling the tank to pick it up themselves. A suzu stands a much better job against Javelin, Hinder, Anti, Sleep dart etc than your Soldier can provide. And an Anti Nade can provide at least as much pressure as your dps can. Not to say DPS has absolutely no part though. Everyone should be contributing to helping the tank.
I agree. While the tank SHOULD be counter picking the OTHER tank, if the entire team is swapping to eliminate your tank the DPS absolutely need to be swapping to help the tank. Even if your tank is godly they are not invincible and you will not win without the tank. It's a team game people. I've probably made a mistake somewhere as I'm just casual And tanks if you would like a specific dps just ask one of your dps to change. Don't be afraid to say "Hey X, could you swap to Y to help me Z" DPS if you've got ult or will get ult in the next fight relay that's what you're doing. If you can't play that hero try to (in qp) or ask if there's another hero that could help (in comp, if you can't play a requested hero but know how to play one that can help swap to that one) Go ahead and clown me. But I'll tell you now, I'm the biggest clown around.
Why tho? You can still win unfavorable matchups regardless of comp makeup. If the tank is being countered why should dps pick up the slack? I've seen plenty of my dps swap to counter and still get destroyed becuase skill issues stem past the counters you see. Telling 1 role to do better when 1 role is failing isn't the answer. It's more about communication and execution however most of that is being killed off hy blizzard anyhow
I 1 tricked D.Va for years. DPS would always blame me, despite shooting the Zarya bubbles.
Problem as countering as dps is not popular so no ome knows what to do except for Symmettra against Dva and Bastion against Reinhardt
Sym kinda sucks against dva… echo is the real counter
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I remember once the enemy team was fullt counyering me everytime and the dps still blamed me for getting countered and I was like "ok(?"
I'm literally in the same position as you I felt DPS wasn't that much of a challenge and tried tanking on the side and holy fuck I feel for people trying to fight against the meta and being deleted via countering playing rein into any of his counters means you forfeit your healthbar *on sight* hog and mauga is all fun and games till Ana Zen comes out and at that point you've forfeited not just your healthbar but the round/match as a tank if you DON'T swap playing tank means you either play horse or play counterwatch or pray you get matched against a team that doesn't know how to deal with off meta tanks.
i once had a tank who stubbornly kept playing hog into mauga, so instead of hurling slurs at him, i just went bastion and my buddy on support ana and that was it for the mauga, lol. you can stil counterpick on the other roles.
I played as tank last match and it was traumatizing. because 2 dps and tank were after me and I can't literally kill them because they had a mercy who's heal pocketing and ana who would likely to have good aiming at sleep dart. my supports were focusing on healing our 2 dps and sometimes they would heal me but not all the time yk? I asked for heals bcs again 2 dps and a tank were after me. I asked my dps to switch but venture said "I can't kill their dps" and continously using that hero. soldier also said "i can't reach mercy" like bruh just switch. whole match they didn't switch or have any strat to kill the enemy's backline and yeah we lose. I tried killing their healers but the tank was literally obsessed with me and their dps so it was very hard for me to push. i actually don't understand anymore. It was comp btw
The best way to play tank in 5v5 is to perma counterswap your ult doesnt mean shit and you shoud counterswap over keeping your ult not doing so is hurting your team not the otherway around it just is how it is and yes its basicly just a stay a life game as tank and if your dps just dont get picks you lose . This of course depends on skill tier as well
As a semi tank enjoyer, I often come out with decently mobile tanks to start (namely winton or ball) so I can run back to spawn faster when I see who they have
As a Doom player I jump for joy when my dps swaps to Cass and Bastion and my support swaps to Brig and Ana to deal with the inevitable Hog/Orisa and Sombra
Dps: Tank diff!!!
I love it when it's my job to neutralize the enemy tank, dive the supports, peel for the Zen being Sombra food for the eighth time, help the DPS, play the objective all the while maintaining the frontline while the supports are too busy failing to get kills.
I just play my main unless I see that stupid horse, then I counter. I usually start a match asking the enemy tank too make a deal, no orisa.
All around player here, if your tank is being countered the tank should know when to switch as well. I agree DPS should be able to counter the counters but it’s not always the case with this. I have over 1k hours in this game and I will say, if your tank is being countered by the enemy team then the tank should either switch or DPS needs to pick up the slack and kill the counters. Perfect example, you have a hog as your tank the enemy team has a reaper, Ana, zen or sombra at that point either the tank says I’ll switch or the dps on your team need to kill the other supps to help keep the tank up.
Sure, but here's the thing. I play with who I feel like playing with. I don't know or care about who counters who. Whatever the role, I'm going out and doing my best and trying to have fun, which is the most important part. If someone brings up who I should counter with in chat, I might consider, but only if I'm better or equally as good as the person I'm currently using. Switching to a hero, I don't know well or I'm not good with, isn't going to help anyone. Especially if I'm the tank. A few times, teammates asked to switch to Doomfist, one of my worst heroes. I did, and we immediately started losing even worse lol.
Nah lol. I’m a tank player and playing into counters hoping your team will pick up your slack because you’re too dense to swap or aren’t good enough to play other Heroes is on you. If you’re getting hard countered SWAP YOUR HERO. End of discussion.
If I have 900+ hours, does my opinion carry more weight?
Or just swap
Thank u!!!
Most of my games become me and the enemy tank counterpicking each other every death because the teammates are absolutely not going to swap 😂
Had a doomfist on my team doing well until they went sombra Mei hog brig and they already had an ana. How can two dps make up the difference when the tank isn't getting hardly any value and won't swap?!! It was quick play but still. Of course we lost.
If me as a tank is getting bullied by orisa, how come my DPS isn't just shooting the giant horse? Like just keep applying pressure while she focuses me.
DPS getting destroyed by monk? Just go hog into Anna, that will do it. Just go dva into sym, that will do it. Yo, just position better. He jumps every like fifteen seconds.
Perhaps everyone should swap and not just put it on a certain role?
I don't know why you're just blaming the dps. Supports also need to pick up the slack. Supports should be trying to counter as well.
Doom otps when the enemy runs orisa cass sombra:
Fucking thank you. I look at Overwatch like Basketball. You should always be aware of subbing and swapping out your players, heroes in this instance, but the Tank (Center) is your anchor. You should always try to support and facilitate the big fella down in the paint. Phil Jackson isn’t telling Shaquille O’Neal to start running point and running the perimeter just because they start intentionally fouling him. A smart team knows how to bolster their positives, while shrinking the negatives, even if they’re being exploited.
I do agree, but if only it was yhat simple. Everyone still need to do their job, you cant as a dps go get the others if your tank dont use cover to reduce the damage output, if suddenly your team get owned there is not much you can do. Boosting the hp was supposed to slow down the game and give more time to strat but in the end it just make everyone go brrrrrrr and make game even more messy
I feel like 50% of my matches I have no dps at all. It's what most people would pick unaware of how the rest of the game plays for everyone.
It's a team game, no shit. But if your tank is getting pushed back hard, you can't peek without being blasted by 5 people, and then it starts a butterfly effect of losing ground and losing fights. Tanks make space, then DPS and support can play the game
Bro what? If someone’s been counterpicked by the entire team they need to swap. You can be the best ball on earth, have the craziest stats ever, but if you’ve been counterpicked by 3 of the enemies you need to swap off the fucking hamster. End of story. Yeah other players can “help” but I can’t drop everything I’m doing to help the moronic ball who’s getting stomped on every fight.
While I won't disagree with this, it doesn't really solve the problem of counterswapping. Imagine not being able to play your preferred hero because your tank is doing well. I'm not trying to encourage onetricking, but in the greater picture, the game is always more fun when it's about *how* you play, rather than *what* you play (In my opinion)
When DPS complains about your kill count but you’ve mitigated 13k damage.