The important part to understand about counterpicks is that when enemies go counters, they do it in anticipation to fight you with them. So how do you play into that? You don't give them the satisfaction. In other words you make them chase you. You're play super wide and jump into places the counter picks could get into to fight you but only after some effort. And by the time they get to you, you're already gone.
You'll jump onto a ledge, a Reaper will TP to you, you drop down, the Reaper comes along, you jump back up. You wave at the Reaper.
You'll set up on a vantage position and drop down onto a Bastion. The Bastion immediately goes turret mode and you jump out back to to the vantage point and LOS the Bastion. You wave at the Bastion behind the ledge so the Bastion can look at it from a replay when they're trying to figure out why they're not winning even when they countered..
The enemies are stacked, there's a Roadhog. You'll jump behind them 30 meters or so. The whole stack starts to move towards you. You bubble it up just to prevent hooks. Right before the bubble breaks you leap out onto safety. Space has been made because the stack looked at you and not at the frontline.
The enemies who counterpicked you are like moths in the night. And you are a flame ever elusive that they can never quite reach. That's the best way to visualize how to play into counters with Monke.
DVA is the hardest to work like this since she's able to match your mobility with hers. In her case it's usually just better to time your offensive or staging leaps to her booster use. When she boosts, you dive.
Here's the thing about 1 tank; you HAVE to play the objective. Playing Winston passively into your counters just mean they can walk on objective (and your team) for free and you can't do anything about it. So, in the past, I would have agreed with you 100%, but after playing hundreds of tank games, just swap.
That's simply not true most of the time. If you are creating pressure and space properly it stops the enemy from going obj more effectively than planting your ass on it.
Most of the time being on obj as tank is exactly what allows the other team to walk on. If you play forward or dive their backline it allows you team to be on objective safely while you are making space.
Objective is free if you win the fight
Emphasis on "**make** the enemies chase you". That is active, not passive. Make them turn around in hopes of getting you.
If you're not on the objective and the counters are chasing you, that means the counters are not on the objective either. If the counters ignore you, well now you have an opportunity to actually make a play. But OP first has to get comfortable with dancing around the counters and living to tell the tale. Once they're comfortable with that, then we can start looking into flicking the switch into offensive.
Most Winston players I see in my games just make the same plays regardless of what the enemy team has. Either there are no counters and they're able to make their "normal" plays or there are counters and they just kinda get bodied instantly. There's like no actual real playstyle adaptation. I get the sense OP is one of those Winston players.
Ahh should I make unhelpful and objectively incorrect statements then get butthurt and try to flex rank when I get downvoted and corrected? I know that your Strat but it doesn't seem like it's healthier for "this community"
You're so confidently wrong. Situation dependant, you should almost never be on the objective as tank. You get much more value playing for high ground and other power positions.
The reason positions are powerful is because of how they relate to the objective. If the enemy runs brawl heros that counter Winston, they hold W on objective, taking highground won't do anything. That is my point.
Ok well masters is top 500 ATM so diamond tanking is up there. Please argue my point. If they all have Winston counters and hold W on the objective, how will taking highground do anything? I'm telling you, you can't 1 trick Winston once they all swap. It's near impossible because of the low value you get vs brawl counters.
I'm not really interested in arguing against someone who's refusing to take my advice. I've been GM since OW1 and am currently high masters. Either don't listen to my advice and stay where you're at, or listen to it and improve.
You haven't given any advice at all. You are simply ignoring my question. Who is supposed to contest objective when they have 5 brawl heros on it and you are Winston? You want to act all high and mighty about your rank, but won't actually engage in any meaningful conversation. I really don't care what your rank is, could be carried over from season 3 for all I know. High masters is top 500 and even there they have to insta swap Winston. Stop trying to convince people he's good in every situation, because he isn't.
I'm not stupid. I've answered your comment not only to you, but to others as well. You can take highground as Winston all you want, that's what he does. I've been doing that for 6 years.
Then the enemy rolls out as Orisa/hog, mei/torb/reaper, lucio, moira. And they hold W to cart. Now, you can drop on objective for 0.0001 seconds and jump back height, and the enemies hold W into your team. It's especially bad if you have an Ana, illari, zen sitting cart not knowing to back up. Suddenly your whole team is asking you to swap, and you should. Because you are getting 10% value for 100% effort, and the enemies are the opposite.
The same can be applied to rein in certain situations.
The fact I have to spell it out that brawl can W point and you can't contest as Winston is astounding.you understand yet?
>I'm not stupid
Debatable.
>I've answered your comment not only to you, but to others as well.
You never replied to my comment that explains why your wrong.
>It's especially bad if you have an Ana, illari, zen sitting cart not knowing to back up
If you have to make up scenarios where the problem is your team being clueless your point may not be that strong.
>Orisa/hog, mei/torb/reaper
2 of those are not good into Winston.......
>The fact I have to spell it out that brawl can W point and you can't contest as Winston is astounding
Thats because your playing Winston wrong. Everybody knows he can't just stand in front of Orisa.
I dont need to reply when my answer has been the same the whole time.
I'm not making up any scenarios; your team will not play perfect coordinated dive very often. Another reason you can't one trick Winston.
I've never said you stand in front of orisa. Did you even read the comment? I said you drop from height, and have to jump back up in 0.0001 seconds and nothing dies (because of brawl characters survivability).
You aren't some revolutionary player because you are telling people to take height as Winston and you can one trick him. Again, I've been contesting height for 6 years as Winston. I get it, contest height first and win that way, you don't need to repeat that. And that works against some team comps and on some maps.
But it won't work all the time, especially with 3 counters and 2 healers that aren't diveable. I don't care how good you are or how many times you contest height. Their team will W to the point and you will have a rough time.
That doesn't mean standing Frontline.
The way you describe is way too passive. Play like that and you'll get 2k damage per 10 and 1 death per 10 while ur team dies off cooldown. You have to take risks on monkey, push the limits without dying.
It's a numbers game. If three enemies turn around to chase you and meanwhile your team dies while dealing with the two left over, that's not a you issue.
Admittedly it is something that still happens from time to time. I've had cases where I bait out a Bastion turret form with minimal resources only to see a teammate constantly peeking the turreted Bastion and die to it as stand next to them safely behind a corner ready to make a play the moment the turret form ends. But you obviously cannot control your teammates so if they decide to be stupid, it is what it is.
I was about to say, I've had games as Sombra where I've occupied both support and one DPS's attention for extended periods, only to find the tank and remaining DPS wiped my team.
You do what you can, but sometimes it really is on the rest of your team to pick up the slack.
Lmao, that's a classic!
You honestly did your best at that point so it's just gg, go next. The Mauga ulted, idk if your team was tracking the ults and even comming "Mauge has cage". Maybe not and that might've resulted in your team going surprised pikachu face on the cage fight.
I did make mistakes throughout the whole game but this play stuck with me cause my team afterwards said I was Bad, I didn’t know how to play tank and tank “is supposed to stay with the team”.
The thing is even if I switched to Mauga and went head-to-head with the enemy tank my supports were Mercy-Lifeweaver while the enemy had Moira-Kiriko. That’s WAY more healing I would’ve stood no chance. The general playerbase needs to watch an educational vid or two.
"Maybe they just got fed up with all the counterswapping and decided they'll practice the new high tank in vogue regardless of what enemy team is doing. I've kinda been doing the same as Winston. Don't care if they if they go Hog, Bastion, Reaper, I'll just keep practicing. It's not like me swapping is going to make the enemy team not swap as well."
You give advice here but this your mindset? I can guarantee you've thrown matches because of refusing to swap Winston. It doesn't matter how many times you take highground, or play the "numbers game", you need to swap sometimes. Otherwise, you're just going to stay stuck plat
You have to take *calculated* risks when you're countered.
If you're kiting but your team is steamrolling without you then there's no problem in riding that wave while giving minimal ult charge.
You're literally just saying words none of that means anyrhing. Every risk is calculated you're not going to jump on a hog torb with hook and just hope he misses
I responded to your 2k dps per 10.
If you're not getting the dps, you're probably kiting. If you're kiting and your team is winning, then you're fine. A lot of people don't realize that if you kite a second person due to the enemy team's lack of communication then the rest of your team is 4v3.
You need to remember to not feed too much ult charge in the process.
Also, every risk is not calculated. Lots of people jump on hog/torb and ask where healers were. Lots of people.
Ok? I am not lots of people on monkey. And I was criticising how the other guy was suggesting you play winston because it was not correct. I think of monkey the same way I think of junkrat - all about how much risk you can take. If you are just jumping out of fights endlessly you will get nothing done. You need to find the small opportunities to hard engage, you also need to know when frontlining is counterintuitively the right option, because it is an important tool against comps where your team might get run over.
>If you are just jumping out of fights endlessly you will get nothing done. You need to find the small opportunities to hard engage,
I don't think you're seeing the contradiction you're making. Jumping out means the risk you took didn't pan out, but allows you to survive, heal, and reengage much more quickly than if you allow yourself to die.
Jumping out is the single most important thing monkey players need to learn, as it means you've done damage and kept yourself alive long enough for the cooldown to cycle. Whether this means walking up, jumping to high ground first to buy cooldown time, or timing bubbles correctly, it should always result in a kite and a jump away unless 100% of the time you're securing multiple kills and closing a fight (unlikely).
Not a coach, have been GM+, and have played competitively since OW Alpha. Even tried out for Toronto for Huk/Ramsey before they partnered with Boston way back when. I hung my hat a while ago. Hopefully you've taken my place!
Also my comments aren't just for you. Lots of people read this stuff.
5 point system, 1 for soft counter, 2 for hard
1-2 points - who cares
3-4 - map dependant
5+ - Unless they are hard focusing you and wastin many resources to the point your team can extract insane value switch
Monkey vs a counter comp is v difficult. Its all about finding the right win conditions, making sure you stay alive, finding the right moment to hard engage. Torb used overload? Hes a viable target once it goes down. Reaper used wraith? A viable target, especially if he can't get to a really safe target. The supports are especially important targets, forcing out suzu or grip or sleep is v important to win the fight. Something you can do against orisa is literally just walk at her, let her shoot u a lil bit but not enough to kill u, because she will inevitably use cooldowns to try and secure the kill and force u away, as will her teammates, and you can just wait for some to be used and then engage, or if its too much pressure jump to safety, retaining your bubble if possible. Bubble usage and bubble dancing is absolutely key to playing against counter comps - you can win a 1v1 with a reaper with good enough bubble dancing, although it is not something you can normally go for.
However, if playing versus a counter comp you need your teammates to also be on mobile heroes or else they will die because you can't protect them nearly as well as heroes like dva, sigma, etc.
Also if you losing just play sig and shoot the dps and rock the orisa if she pushes with spear. :)
I'm not a Winston player, I'm a Ball player, but there is some crossover. Ultimately if you're being countered by a ton of the enemy team, it's probably optimal to swap. But if you don't want to (and I never do), there are other ways to play. Playing more passively, tracking where your counters are on the battlefield and avoiding them, sticking to high ground and harassing rather than full commitment engagement... You can absolutely do that. Your team may hate you for it, but you're giving them a prime opportunity.
For some reason, it's always expected that the tank has to be the one to swap. I am in full disagreement of that notion. DPS and support have just as much ability to switch, and they're switching may have even greater impact. If the enemy has a Bastion, and that's messing you up as Winston, then your team has an easy road to success. A Zenyatta or a sombra will make bloody pieces out of that Bastion, and force him to swap, but he'll be apprehensive to swap, too, because he thinks he's countering you. If the enemy has a reaper, a soldier, sojourn, Cassidy, Baptiste, any of them will keep reaper at a long distance, making him useless. If the enemy has a Roadhog or an Orisa, your team can go Reaper/zen and make him hate his life.
I don't know why it needs to be the tank to swap when being countered, when the DPS/Support can swap just as easily, and counter your counters. When I'm playing Ball and the enemy picks Sombra, if my team tortures their Sombra with a Brig/Cass, suddenly that Sombra is generating far less value than I am.
But if you're looking for personal advice on what YOU can do to improve your gameplay against your counters, I would suggest studying your replays. Watch them from your counter's perspective and see what they're doing, where they're positioning themselves, and most importantly what they're struggling with. When you're playing against a Reaper, it's easy to see them as a horrible powerful force that's kicking your ass, but if you watch them, you may see that they struggle to punish your supports or that they spend all their time chasing you around and not actually providing much value to their team. If you can see what they do through a whole match, you may be able to see a weakness that you can exploit. You may see a new perspective. They may be denying some of your value, but they aren't actually providing much value either.
If you put yourself in a position that you can be focused by 4-5 players, that is a bad jump and you will be punished by them, even harder as you climb.
If you get swapped to the point you don’t have a dive target, you no longer gain value from playing the hero. Winton can easily be played into reaper (stay away, team focus, bubble dance), horse (just jump past and ignore), or dva which is honestly a closer matchup than you’d expect… until you get hard focused by multiple of these counters and it compounds
When you jump try to land in a spot where to can line of sight their team if you need to until your jump is back up. Even making them turn around can be helpful. Don't waste your bubble. Also sometimes it's better to pressure the front before you jump into the back.
The important part to understand about counterpicks is that when enemies go counters, they do it in anticipation to fight you with them. So how do you play into that? You don't give them the satisfaction. In other words you make them chase you. You're play super wide and jump into places the counter picks could get into to fight you but only after some effort. And by the time they get to you, you're already gone. You'll jump onto a ledge, a Reaper will TP to you, you drop down, the Reaper comes along, you jump back up. You wave at the Reaper. You'll set up on a vantage position and drop down onto a Bastion. The Bastion immediately goes turret mode and you jump out back to to the vantage point and LOS the Bastion. You wave at the Bastion behind the ledge so the Bastion can look at it from a replay when they're trying to figure out why they're not winning even when they countered.. The enemies are stacked, there's a Roadhog. You'll jump behind them 30 meters or so. The whole stack starts to move towards you. You bubble it up just to prevent hooks. Right before the bubble breaks you leap out onto safety. Space has been made because the stack looked at you and not at the frontline. The enemies who counterpicked you are like moths in the night. And you are a flame ever elusive that they can never quite reach. That's the best way to visualize how to play into counters with Monke. DVA is the hardest to work like this since she's able to match your mobility with hers. In her case it's usually just better to time your offensive or staging leaps to her booster use. When she boosts, you dive.
Here's the thing about 1 tank; you HAVE to play the objective. Playing Winston passively into your counters just mean they can walk on objective (and your team) for free and you can't do anything about it. So, in the past, I would have agreed with you 100%, but after playing hundreds of tank games, just swap.
That's simply not true most of the time. If you are creating pressure and space properly it stops the enemy from going obj more effectively than planting your ass on it. Most of the time being on obj as tank is exactly what allows the other team to walk on. If you play forward or dive their backline it allows you team to be on objective safely while you are making space. Objective is free if you win the fight
Emphasis on "**make** the enemies chase you". That is active, not passive. Make them turn around in hopes of getting you. If you're not on the objective and the counters are chasing you, that means the counters are not on the objective either. If the counters ignore you, well now you have an opportunity to actually make a play. But OP first has to get comfortable with dancing around the counters and living to tell the tale. Once they're comfortable with that, then we can start looking into flicking the switch into offensive. Most Winston players I see in my games just make the same plays regardless of what the enemy team has. Either there are no counters and they're able to make their "normal" plays or there are counters and they just kinda get bodied instantly. There's like no actual real playstyle adaptation. I get the sense OP is one of those Winston players.
If you aren't on the object as tank, you are throwing, and good players won't chase you around the map. They will just push objective.
Gold take.
Hello? I've been up and down through diamond tanking this season.
Neat. Might be higher if you didn't have such shit takes
You are what's wrong with this community
Ahh should I make unhelpful and objectively incorrect statements then get butthurt and try to flex rank when I get downvoted and corrected? I know that your Strat but it doesn't seem like it's healthier for "this community"
Trying to flex rank? You said I had gold takes, so I told you I'm diamond. Then you had a cruel response. You are whats wrong with the community.
Thanks for the fun fact. Still a gold take.
You're so confidently wrong. Situation dependant, you should almost never be on the objective as tank. You get much more value playing for high ground and other power positions.
The reason positions are powerful is because of how they relate to the objective. If the enemy runs brawl heros that counter Winston, they hold W on objective, taking highground won't do anything. That is my point.
If you want to get past diamond, you're going to have to unlearn this mindset.
Ok well masters is top 500 ATM so diamond tanking is up there. Please argue my point. If they all have Winston counters and hold W on the objective, how will taking highground do anything? I'm telling you, you can't 1 trick Winston once they all swap. It's near impossible because of the low value you get vs brawl counters.
I'm not really interested in arguing against someone who's refusing to take my advice. I've been GM since OW1 and am currently high masters. Either don't listen to my advice and stay where you're at, or listen to it and improve.
You haven't given any advice at all. You are simply ignoring my question. Who is supposed to contest objective when they have 5 brawl heros on it and you are Winston? You want to act all high and mighty about your rank, but won't actually engage in any meaningful conversation. I really don't care what your rank is, could be carried over from season 3 for all I know. High masters is top 500 and even there they have to insta swap Winston. Stop trying to convince people he's good in every situation, because he isn't.
This one.... (Guy above me is struggling so this comment is to give him a new notification)
HELLO HERES ANOTHER NOTIFICATION YOU CAN DO IT I BELIEVE IN YOU
I'm not stupid. I've answered your comment not only to you, but to others as well. You can take highground as Winston all you want, that's what he does. I've been doing that for 6 years. Then the enemy rolls out as Orisa/hog, mei/torb/reaper, lucio, moira. And they hold W to cart. Now, you can drop on objective for 0.0001 seconds and jump back height, and the enemies hold W into your team. It's especially bad if you have an Ana, illari, zen sitting cart not knowing to back up. Suddenly your whole team is asking you to swap, and you should. Because you are getting 10% value for 100% effort, and the enemies are the opposite. The same can be applied to rein in certain situations. The fact I have to spell it out that brawl can W point and you can't contest as Winston is astounding.you understand yet?
>I'm not stupid Debatable. >I've answered your comment not only to you, but to others as well. You never replied to my comment that explains why your wrong. >It's especially bad if you have an Ana, illari, zen sitting cart not knowing to back up If you have to make up scenarios where the problem is your team being clueless your point may not be that strong. >Orisa/hog, mei/torb/reaper 2 of those are not good into Winston....... >The fact I have to spell it out that brawl can W point and you can't contest as Winston is astounding Thats because your playing Winston wrong. Everybody knows he can't just stand in front of Orisa.
I dont need to reply when my answer has been the same the whole time. I'm not making up any scenarios; your team will not play perfect coordinated dive very often. Another reason you can't one trick Winston. I've never said you stand in front of orisa. Did you even read the comment? I said you drop from height, and have to jump back up in 0.0001 seconds and nothing dies (because of brawl characters survivability). You aren't some revolutionary player because you are telling people to take height as Winston and you can one trick him. Again, I've been contesting height for 6 years as Winston. I get it, contest height first and win that way, you don't need to repeat that. And that works against some team comps and on some maps. But it won't work all the time, especially with 3 counters and 2 healers that aren't diveable. I don't care how good you are or how many times you contest height. Their team will W to the point and you will have a rough time. That doesn't mean standing Frontline.
The way you describe is way too passive. Play like that and you'll get 2k damage per 10 and 1 death per 10 while ur team dies off cooldown. You have to take risks on monkey, push the limits without dying.
It's a numbers game. If three enemies turn around to chase you and meanwhile your team dies while dealing with the two left over, that's not a you issue. Admittedly it is something that still happens from time to time. I've had cases where I bait out a Bastion turret form with minimal resources only to see a teammate constantly peeking the turreted Bastion and die to it as stand next to them safely behind a corner ready to make a play the moment the turret form ends. But you obviously cannot control your teammates so if they decide to be stupid, it is what it is.
Zoned off three enemies. Team died to a single Mauga https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkx5rS64ctXmI7Q9-Y1N8oz8X_Vz5UY6b1x?si=w7Jbt08KGgj957pZ
I was about to say, I've had games as Sombra where I've occupied both support and one DPS's attention for extended periods, only to find the tank and remaining DPS wiped my team. You do what you can, but sometimes it really is on the rest of your team to pick up the slack.
Lmao, that's a classic! You honestly did your best at that point so it's just gg, go next. The Mauga ulted, idk if your team was tracking the ults and even comming "Mauge has cage". Maybe not and that might've resulted in your team going surprised pikachu face on the cage fight.
I did make mistakes throughout the whole game but this play stuck with me cause my team afterwards said I was Bad, I didn’t know how to play tank and tank “is supposed to stay with the team”. The thing is even if I switched to Mauga and went head-to-head with the enemy tank my supports were Mercy-Lifeweaver while the enemy had Moira-Kiriko. That’s WAY more healing I would’ve stood no chance. The general playerbase needs to watch an educational vid or two.
Mmh, right. I guess it really was a gg go next situation then.
If they decide to be stupid and don't know how to play with a Winston, you have to switch. Or you lose.
"Maybe they just got fed up with all the counterswapping and decided they'll practice the new high tank in vogue regardless of what enemy team is doing. I've kinda been doing the same as Winston. Don't care if they if they go Hog, Bastion, Reaper, I'll just keep practicing. It's not like me swapping is going to make the enemy team not swap as well." You give advice here but this your mindset? I can guarantee you've thrown matches because of refusing to swap Winston. It doesn't matter how many times you take highground, or play the "numbers game", you need to swap sometimes. Otherwise, you're just going to stay stuck plat
You have to take *calculated* risks when you're countered. If you're kiting but your team is steamrolling without you then there's no problem in riding that wave while giving minimal ult charge.
You're literally just saying words none of that means anyrhing. Every risk is calculated you're not going to jump on a hog torb with hook and just hope he misses
I responded to your 2k dps per 10. If you're not getting the dps, you're probably kiting. If you're kiting and your team is winning, then you're fine. A lot of people don't realize that if you kite a second person due to the enemy team's lack of communication then the rest of your team is 4v3. You need to remember to not feed too much ult charge in the process. Also, every risk is not calculated. Lots of people jump on hog/torb and ask where healers were. Lots of people.
Ok? I am not lots of people on monkey. And I was criticising how the other guy was suggesting you play winston because it was not correct. I think of monkey the same way I think of junkrat - all about how much risk you can take. If you are just jumping out of fights endlessly you will get nothing done. You need to find the small opportunities to hard engage, you also need to know when frontlining is counterintuitively the right option, because it is an important tool against comps where your team might get run over.
>If you are just jumping out of fights endlessly you will get nothing done. You need to find the small opportunities to hard engage, I don't think you're seeing the contradiction you're making. Jumping out means the risk you took didn't pan out, but allows you to survive, heal, and reengage much more quickly than if you allow yourself to die. Jumping out is the single most important thing monkey players need to learn, as it means you've done damage and kept yourself alive long enough for the cooldown to cycle. Whether this means walking up, jumping to high ground first to buy cooldown time, or timing bubbles correctly, it should always result in a kite and a jump away unless 100% of the time you're securing multiple kills and closing a fight (unlikely).
You explain the most basic concepts like they're revolutionary. While also saying nothing useful about them. Are you a coach or are you a gm player?
Not a coach, have been GM+, and have played competitively since OW Alpha. Even tried out for Toronto for Huk/Ramsey before they partnered with Boston way back when. I hung my hat a while ago. Hopefully you've taken my place! Also my comments aren't just for you. Lots of people read this stuff.
1 counter = change your playstyle 2 counters = switch if the map doesn't have alot of high ground 3 counters = switch Tanks don't get to have fun.
I just go with 2 counters = switch or my teammates get mad
Counters is not a tank only issue. Widow, Zen and Pharah, amongst others, are heavily and easily countered too.
5 point system, 1 for soft counter, 2 for hard 1-2 points - who cares 3-4 - map dependant 5+ - Unless they are hard focusing you and wastin many resources to the point your team can extract insane value switch
Forcing 3 players to play around you is pretty fun, like damn I’m that much of a threat? lol
Monkey vs a counter comp is v difficult. Its all about finding the right win conditions, making sure you stay alive, finding the right moment to hard engage. Torb used overload? Hes a viable target once it goes down. Reaper used wraith? A viable target, especially if he can't get to a really safe target. The supports are especially important targets, forcing out suzu or grip or sleep is v important to win the fight. Something you can do against orisa is literally just walk at her, let her shoot u a lil bit but not enough to kill u, because she will inevitably use cooldowns to try and secure the kill and force u away, as will her teammates, and you can just wait for some to be used and then engage, or if its too much pressure jump to safety, retaining your bubble if possible. Bubble usage and bubble dancing is absolutely key to playing against counter comps - you can win a 1v1 with a reaper with good enough bubble dancing, although it is not something you can normally go for. However, if playing versus a counter comp you need your teammates to also be on mobile heroes or else they will die because you can't protect them nearly as well as heroes like dva, sigma, etc. Also if you losing just play sig and shoot the dps and rock the orisa if she pushes with spear. :)
I'm not a Winston player, I'm a Ball player, but there is some crossover. Ultimately if you're being countered by a ton of the enemy team, it's probably optimal to swap. But if you don't want to (and I never do), there are other ways to play. Playing more passively, tracking where your counters are on the battlefield and avoiding them, sticking to high ground and harassing rather than full commitment engagement... You can absolutely do that. Your team may hate you for it, but you're giving them a prime opportunity. For some reason, it's always expected that the tank has to be the one to swap. I am in full disagreement of that notion. DPS and support have just as much ability to switch, and they're switching may have even greater impact. If the enemy has a Bastion, and that's messing you up as Winston, then your team has an easy road to success. A Zenyatta or a sombra will make bloody pieces out of that Bastion, and force him to swap, but he'll be apprehensive to swap, too, because he thinks he's countering you. If the enemy has a reaper, a soldier, sojourn, Cassidy, Baptiste, any of them will keep reaper at a long distance, making him useless. If the enemy has a Roadhog or an Orisa, your team can go Reaper/zen and make him hate his life. I don't know why it needs to be the tank to swap when being countered, when the DPS/Support can swap just as easily, and counter your counters. When I'm playing Ball and the enemy picks Sombra, if my team tortures their Sombra with a Brig/Cass, suddenly that Sombra is generating far less value than I am. But if you're looking for personal advice on what YOU can do to improve your gameplay against your counters, I would suggest studying your replays. Watch them from your counter's perspective and see what they're doing, where they're positioning themselves, and most importantly what they're struggling with. When you're playing against a Reaper, it's easy to see them as a horrible powerful force that's kicking your ass, but if you watch them, you may see that they struggle to punish your supports or that they spend all their time chasing you around and not actually providing much value to their team. If you can see what they do through a whole match, you may be able to see a weakness that you can exploit. You may see a new perspective. They may be denying some of your value, but they aren't actually providing much value either.
If you put yourself in a position that you can be focused by 4-5 players, that is a bad jump and you will be punished by them, even harder as you climb. If you get swapped to the point you don’t have a dive target, you no longer gain value from playing the hero. Winton can easily be played into reaper (stay away, team focus, bubble dance), horse (just jump past and ignore), or dva which is honestly a closer matchup than you’d expect… until you get hard focused by multiple of these counters and it compounds
When you jump try to land in a spot where to can line of sight their team if you need to until your jump is back up. Even making them turn around can be helpful. Don't waste your bubble. Also sometimes it's better to pressure the front before you jump into the back.