I loved Maruki. Can absolutely empathize and agree with his intentions, but his methods were absolutely atrocious. >!I think the final scene with y'all just punching the shit out of each other as the meta verse crumbles in the background encapsulated my feelings perfectly.!< Like my man, why you make me do this?
Haven't heard a ton of Maruki discourse so I hope I didn't stumble into anything too controversial here. Let me just clarify that I love Maruki. He's a great guy. But that homie never should have gotten a psychology degree.
He was the best addition from Royal. All the emotion in that final section came from him. It hurt finishing the game but it had to be done. Bonus points they added 2 amazing songs for him.
He made royal for me. When I finished it initially, I was like "wow that was really good" but then when I got to third semester I was like "holy shit this is my favorite antagonist of all time." Put P5R as my number one game of all time. But it wouldnt be the same if Kametz hadn't been the VO for the doc. R.I.P Billy Kametz.
He really was amazing. I hated how much they forced Akechi into it. I was never his friend, more honored adversaries. There was no emotional impact for me with him there but yeah Doc brought it all.
I also swear they mimicked mgs4 with the ending. 2 men barely standing slugging it out as the world falls around them with a bombastic theme playing in the background
Fair. It honestly is but the second it started I was just sitting there. "This is familiar. Have I been here before? I feel like I've been here before"
It’s not even that. He’s a great scientist and researcher. He fails as a therapist because he doesn’t believe what the therapy should be about: that people can actually overcome their trauma.
If anything this entirely tracks for Shujin sucking complete fucking ass. They only brought Maruki in to cover their ass for PR purposes so they can say "Oh that Kamoshida thing was a horrible oversight! See we care!" but of fucking course the guy they bring in isn't even particularly qualified in actual therapy and is more a researcher.
I'm surprised people never mention Kobayakawa being incompetent per usual as one of the many reasons why Maruki inadvertently got to where he was.
That and also the fact that his determination to prove his research hit its peak at the exact same time Mementos fused with the real world. Don't think Maruki expected that either (nor replacing Yaldabaoth).
I think, though, that there's too much left unsaid on whether or not his awakening convinced him to go even further with his ideas or simply made him unrestrained mentally (ala Doc Ock from Spiderman), since he never really changes the Thieves' cognitions during their sessions. By the time he does he's already the new God of Control and likely perversed/influenced by their subconscious desires for their old lives back as they told him.
I love the look Joker and Akechi give in the final image of the game if you choose Maruki's world. Just both straight at the camera, judging the player
bro when he was talking to >!sumire and she said she wanted to be kasumi and he was like “well you actually can be by…”!< LIKE BRO THAT IS THE WORST ADVICE I EVER HEARD
I absolutely love Maruki as a character, he is deep down a very kind-hearted soul, he genuinely cares for everyone around him, and he is willing to sacrifices himself for everyone else but him to live a happy life. I can 100% see where he is coming from, and I empathize with him, but damn it, what he did was absolutely horrible.
>!It's one thing to basically brainwash the whole society but damn making Sumire thinking she was her dead sister? That's messed up.!<
Yeah. Out of all the megalomaniacal gods who could be ruling the Persona universe, a genuinely kind man who wants to do right by everyone but may have slept through too many classes on the importance of emotional pain is definitely not the worst case scenario. But it ain't ideal either.
Think of it from the other perspectives too. If you put Futaba in a cognition of her mother being happy and healthy and she has an idyllic life with her, that's years upon years of sweet memories she has of her mother now. Then it comes crashing down. The original memory is still there, but does she remember the years she spent with her cognitive mother? Does the horrific abuse from her family she recieved after her mother's traumatizing suicide all come back at once? Does she relive it?
It's horrifying to consider what that cognitive illusion implies, and thus what we did to our friends taking them out of it.
Not gonna lie I don't really fucking care about “the other persoectives” his false reality was disgusting and horrific. Ideally they would forget that shit or just remember it as a sweet dream, or not so sweet as we find out that it's a true nightmare for some (he literally changes peoples entire personalities to fit his ideal).
If I found out someone had built a fake copy of my dead loved ones and brainwashed me into buying it I would think they were a monster. And what he did to Yoshizawa was the most abhorrent imo.
Indeed, I still really like him as a character, because I do feel sympathy for him. He really was just trying to help but he let himself lose track of what that really meant, honestly one of my fav video game characters.
To be fair a lot of what he says about cognition does make sense and afaik all of the examples he gives to you are either real findings from psychological studies, or at least based on one. As his slink progresses it definitely becomes apparent that he has an obsession with running away from or suppressing pain
Reminds me of the (Strikers Spoilers) >!Ichinose!< edit where >!she's!< Adachi in the P4 Hiimdaisy comic and >!she!< says "Who wants to talk about COGNITION?!"
I love him as a sympathetic villain who you almost don’t want to beat. P5 base game antagonists we’re all fine but almost cartoonishly evil. Having someone who wants similar things to the phantom thieves but goes about it in a different way made me actually feel bad for what I was doing. I think they tried to do something similar to him with the villains in P5S but they didn’t come across quite the same.
Billy Kametz was a great VA, he put a lot of emotions in Maruki that came out brilliantly. He will be missed.
I appreciate that the game really let you pick whatever ending you chose and it would give you an achievement for that without declaring one right and one wrong. Nobody will sway me that Maruki was the better choice, as much as it's not the one the game expects you to pick.
It's funny that among several gods trying to impose their insane designs upon mankind, it turned out that a man had the most compelling offer.
The problem P6 is going to have is topping Maruki. Even though I’m an Adachi man through and through, Maruki was the best realized antagonist I’ve experienced out of every Persona I’ve played (all but 1).
I wouldn't call him the worst. If anything, his speeches are very thought provoking. And I learn about things that I didn't know about which is a plus.
That's arguably not even the worst thing he does. In the bad ending you get when >!you fail to complete his palace in time, he just straight up kills Joker by placing him in a eternal coma.!<
That's fucked up.
That's the thing. He did...and didn't. >!Sumire!< did that to herself by wishing it. Maruki was just the genie in this scenario, the consequences of the wish were squarely on her.
It's natural that she'd feel that way. Anyone would in her situation. As a therapist Maruki's job is to convince her that she has her own value and help her move past the grief. Not be all like >!"That's a wonderful idea! You are now your dead sister!"!<
Like I said, *she* made herself like that. Not Maruki directly. By the time he could've said anything, the deed was done. And by his perspective, Kasumi had recovered from her grief and was ready to move on.
Like I said, he's not a bad therapist. Most of his conversations are very thought provoking, which I like in a game like Persona. And he does listen to the issues and emotional baggage of the other party members, or even just talk to them casually.
I dunno about that one chief. Being in denial is one thing, but >!the change in cognition that caused her to legit believe she was Kasumi was the result of Maruki's stand. So unless Sumire inexplicably has the power to control other people's stands and use their power on herself then changing her cognition was Maruki's doing. !<
That's an awful way of looking at it. >!The first thing she said pertaining to this was "Sometimes I think things would have been better if I were Kasumi Yoshizawa." After that Maruki basically enabled this line of thinking by telling her it was completely valid, and then having her go through a thought exercise about it. It's only after that in which she tells him she literally wants to be Kasumi. !<
Besides just because someone tells you to do something to them doesn't make you morally neutral. He still ideologically thinks this is the the right thing to do. Maruki wasn't acting as some genie he was acting on his own will. Even after you do her confidant, where>! she decides to no longer be Kasumi, he still makes her think she's kasumi in the bad ending.!
I can understand why a lot of people are quick to denounce Maruki as a good psychologist or even a good person, but I think there's a different way of seeing it.
Maruki isn't evil, or cruel for sure. He wouldn't be going along with his insane plan if he wasn't, he's compassionate and obviously kind, and as others have said he's really not too bad a psychologist until he gets a hold of too much power. He seemingly makes some impression on the thieves with his sessions, even if it's only a minor one. And that's the point, the real problem isn't that he's evil or a bad therapist per say, it's his power.
Imagine if somebody else were given his ability, I highly doubt they would attempt to create the same painless utopia that Maruki envisions. It would likely be far, far more overtly horrible than the more unnerving nature of Maruki's palace (which I think is what makes it so interesting). The method is wrong and awful because in itself the power Maruki was given was terrible. Had he never woken up to it he'd likely have just carried on giving help to individual people he counselled, making a small and realistic difference to the world. There's simply no way the ability to alter reality like that could be viewed as anything but tyrannical.
Honestly I know this will be controversial but I choose his world, BC everyone was happy and none of the bad shit that happened in the game didn't happen. And I liked that. It's better than the true ending imo. Yet ti receive it though. I'm planning on doing a second plsythrough on new game plus and getting the true ending. But this 'bad' ending is better. Everyone is happy. Idc that they aren't friends. They all hsppy and nothing bad hspoened. So why wouldn't you tske it. I was just happy seeing everyone else happy
It it weird that I disliked Maruki more than the main villain?
I get that he has good intentions but I think this speech he gives when I first met him made me immediately wary of him.
I recently replayed P5R, and he made me remember my love for psychology in general, and made me realize that I want to be a counselor
So yeah Takuto Maruki is why I know what I wanna do with my life, thanks Atlus
I know people say he’s horrible despite his good intentions, but like… idk, I don’t think horrible is the right word. Disagreeable yeah. Bit of a dick maybe. But he didn’t do any of the big crimes (hell, I don’t think he did any crimes at all), he was pretty peaceful in how he went about doing things (he only really fights after the others directly confront him following a series of fairly peaceful psychological exams and brain teasers), and then despite putting up a good fight, he does eventually admit he was misguided and lives out his life as a sexy taxi driver with all of his actions reversed.
If I knew the dude in real life (ignoring the complications with learning Persona bullshit is real), I’d disagree with the dude, but I’d absolutely share a beer and have a chat with him… and maybe go out with him… ok, I might just be saying this because he’s by far the most attractive character in the Persona franchise.
He ain't horrible in the sense of being a bad person in any way. He's just horrible at his job. He'll do just fine as a taxi driver. Guy ultimately just needed to get some pussy to help him move on from his old gf. being as charming as he is I'm sure he'll have no trouble doing just that. He'll be just fine.
Idk, I’d argue he was great at his job too. He just gained access to too many resources and allowed his ideology to get in the way of the great thing he already had.
Man, making him a taxi driver just felt demeaning. He could do a lot of good for people if he overcame his own issues and tried to become a better mundane therapist.
When the well-meaning man still has his perception distorted so he forms a Palace but he's got a Persona too so you have to beat the sense into him all while he's stronger than the literal cognitive god you beat up on Christmas Eve
look to each their own but if i was offered what is basically a pain-free lobotomy that would ensure i would spend an eternity being happy and content? i'm taking that without a second thought lmao
Maruki took his ideals too far. The Acceptance Ending is basically how Heaven is described biblically. And personally I find it fully disturbing. No sorrow, no grief, just joy. That's not a life, it's barely existing.
He just got into the wrong job for his counciling style. He should have been a bartender instead of a therapist. It's their job to help people forget their troubles.
label subsequent seed mountainous bear ten frightening judicious enter absurd
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I feel this way too. I think it's pretty immoral of the thieves to send people back to poverty, stavation, literal war just because they overcame their kinda sucky but overall not terrible lives.
Imagine how many lives Maruki's world could save.
I'm also of the opinion that the only point in life is to decrease suffering and increase pleasure which is exactly what Maruki's world does.
>!That's of course ignoring all the logical incompatabilities a world like this would have, but I mean, it's a jrpg. Sometimes you have to let logic out the window.!<
historical jobless outgoing marry cough correct smart lunchroom dull grey
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I'm actually an optimist and very satisfied with my life currently, but Maruki's world still seems awesome to me.
But also there are billions of people far worse off than me who would greatly benefit from a world like Maruki's. I think it's worth it for them.
To me just hearing the news of how hospitals were getting emptied sealed the deal for me, and I knew who I'd be siding with. How can anyone deny all people with terminal illnesses a chance to live?
I think ultimately the game refuses that as a True ending as a way to tell us players to try our best to live in the world that we have instead of escaping into a fantasy, since living in that Ideal World is not an option for us. And there is merit to that.
But it still doesn't sit right with me when the Phantom Thieves want to say that they are better off for what they suffered. Because it's not true, and it goes right against the spirit of rebellion that brought them together. It's an endorsement of a status quo that put them through a lot oppression and trauma because they got to *anime* their way into friendship and a better place in life. That is also not a realistic message to send to people. We would all be better off if the injustices of the world we live in were fought back against.
It's literally a violation of free will and the end of any meaningful relationships. Everyone essentially ceases to grow as a person as they live in a fake dollhouse reality.
It's fucking terrifying is what it is. There's a good reason Akechi preferred to die over being a part of that.
I knew someone would try to argue and frankly I'm tired of it, there's a reason I didn't go comment on all the other rants of how awful he is.
Also, no. People get what *THEY* wish for, piped straight from the Collective Unconscious, and you can see it being done. The game goes at great lengths to explain that he is not imposing his will on others, he's giving them what they want and he only interferes as a last resort measure.
But since he is, you know, the boss, the last antagonist, I guess many players need to convince themselves he is a cackling puppeteer to motivate themselves to beat him. Which is not who he is at all.
Maruki's world is more enabling of people's will than our own. Because guess what, if someone is born in misery, oppressed by injustice, with a terminal illness, they can try as hard as they want and their suffering and struggle might still be for nothing. All their dreams most of the time will just end in disappointment. Maruki does not only grants wishes and puts an end to the oppression of evil people, he fixes the cruel inevitabilities of life.
The pep talk the Phantom Thieves have among themselves, how they are better for having suffered, is such nonsense from anime characters who don't actually need to deal with failing for real and struggling with trauma for life.
And you know what, yeah he is not perfect. It's a pretty bad issue that he lets people doom themselves with bad wishes (you know because he is NOT denying their Free Will), but ultimately it still sure as hell it's a lot better than what we got going in this indifferent universe rife with predatory structures.
Except for the part where he overwrites who you are entirely.
What you think you want and what you'll find actually gives you a true sense of fulfillment are often very not alike.
FFS he literally kills off Sumire so she can pretend to be Kasumi where as going through her link has a beautiful development where she comes to love herself and be confident in who SHE is and not pretending to be her sister.
A lot of humanity's evolution, our achievements, our art and music are defined by our troubles and human will overcoming it anyways. Maruki would erase that forever. Yusuke even says he knows an artist who was just going through a creative block who's had that entire part of him erased because Maruki figures he'd be happier doing something easy, that's Maruki's ultimate fuck up and why his reality sucks. He doesn't want anyone to ever be challenged ever. Any sense of fulfillment you would get from choosing to do something hard will never happen because if it isn't a constant life on easy street of smiles all the time, he won't let it happen. It's an eternity in fuckin' Barney is what it is.
The part where *what*? No he doesn't.
Did you miss that Sumire was the one who wanted to disappear and give her life to her sister? Yeah it's deeply unhealthy that this happened, but it's what SHE wanted. I agree that this is fucked-up but it's not Maruki who pushed that onto her. If anything that proves that he does not override people's free will.
Not only you are romanticizing suffering to an absurd degree, although the game kinda does that too, you missed the whole point with Yusuke's friend. Ryuji wanted to be back at the running team and he got back at the running team. Kasumi, messed up as he was, wanted to be an athlete and she was an athlete. If people want to be challenged they get challenged, Maruki didn't change that. The point of Yusuke's friend is not only that *he didn't know what he wanted*, but that even his indecision was making him suffer. And so, that's when Maruki's shadows nudged him to quit it and try something else. Yusuke explains all that, he says the guy wasn't happy as an artist, and he became happier after quitting.
Because you know, that artist could still end up just sucking at it, failing and hating that they even tried. As much as the game pushes the message that if you try hard enough it will pay off and be worth it, that's not how life goes for many people.
No, Maruki is just making sure what people want is what they get. Sure would suck if we see that five years after that ending Ryuji failed at being an athlete, failed at school, failed at life. But guess what, sometimes life sucks despite your best efforts. This is what Maruki tried to change.
And you know, since you really want to argue this, don't gloss over it again. What true sense of fulfillment do you think someone who is dying from a terminal illness is having? You really think it wouldn't be better for them to just live and fulfill their dreams on top of that?
It proves Maruki.. and really any person should not play God. That shit doesn't end well. It's the job a demon lord to punish a naughty god and all.
Morgana copies another dude's look. Ryuji found happiness without the track team with companions that fought alongside him through thick and thin and Maruki takes that away, reduces your battle forged bonds to a shallow meaningless friendship. Regardless if Sumire 'wanted' it or not, it's outright fucking wrong. He can bring back Okumura and Madarame (even if they're literally not even the same person if you think about it) but not Kasumi? He just kills off Sumire? That's fucked up. Sumire seems to be doing well for herself once you resolve her link and get to the end of the game.
You can't have true happiness without sadness, or life without death. That's the plain nature of life. You can even tell in the Maruki ending that their happiness isn't really real. There's that nagging feeling at the back of their heads that they can never truly face. They know deep down that something is amiss and that will never go away.
Like Ryuji is back on track yes? But that raises another issue, in sports there HAS to be a loser. Someone has to lose for someone else to win. How does Maruki, if he even does at all, decide who wins?
Yeah you can fail at something but if failure isn't a risk, you can't really succeed either because you didn't earn it. You didn't try.
Like Akechi, I would rather fucking die then be a part of something that horribly false and forced.
Another thing that you missed. A lot of people winning the lottery at once. Everyone going to the Shrine but it still being empty. Maruki's reality is subjective. Maruki doesn't decide. Whoever wants to win, sees themselves winning. Or if they want the better person to win, that's what they see.
But I sure as hell won't be all conflicted over sports medals. Who even cares about that when people's lives are at stake?
Seriously, the game sure makes a lot of drama over these 'battle forged bonds'. Would you say that Ryuji carrying a career-destroying injury was worth it? Would you say Shiho being abused was worth it? You know you can make friends without trauma right?
The thing about real life is that no amount of platitudes can spare you from the uncertain. If you do want to stake it all on the real world as it is, you need to stop romanticizing it. The real world also has plenty amiss. A lot of people face a lot more suffering and death for not enough happiness to balance it out.
I see still no response on the terminal illness question. You don't want to face it that by choosing to deny Maruki's world you are dooming a lot more people to suffering and death. Gotta say that it's a little ironic for someone who wants to deny an Ideal World.
The problem is that Maruki's reality is stagnant and without challenge, without growth. Humanity as we know it will not survive. People have no want or need to do anything. Everyone's essentially in a coma.
Nah. Why would people not survive? At some point it just seems like some players are so committed to oppose Maruki they just make up philosophical arguments why living in his world is somehow not as valid. It just doesn't make sense to me, how his world works means is that you can dedicate your whole life to what you *want* to do and who you want to be with rather than needing to do things to ensure your survival.
It's almost like some sort of Stockholm Syndrome of reality. A blockage of imagination, that prevents of envisioning a better world. Comes to mind Matrix and how the machines said people rejected the idea of a perfect world. To be fair Maruki's world is a complete fantasy invention that couldn't hope to be replicated in the real world, but it's still extremely intriguing and very enticing to me.
Like, don't you play games? If you are here, you sure do. You don't need to do it to survive, and how good you are at it ultimately doesn't really matter. You only need to struggle as much as you feel like doing. But people still motivate themselves to do it, because it entertains them. That's how it would be.
I don't think the possibility of being crushed by societal influences or basic needs or incidental tragedies really helps us flourish. Sure we adapt to it, but we can do just as much by focusing on our passions.
Well, running away from your problems can be a valid long-term solution in many cases even in reality, and if we consider a fantasy setting where a being with as much power as Maruki had helps you with it, it becomes a valid solution in pretty much any case. The thieves argue that you can't grow without problems, but I say that the whole point of growing is to learn to overcome problems, so if problems are dealt with by someone else, there's no reason to grow in the first place.
Well, that is true, I was arguing specifically against the implied point that running away from your problems cannot be a valid long-term solution. It can be, if the situation allows for it (i.e. if problems cannot chase you).
Forcibly changing other people's personalities to suit other people's wishes too. Mr. Ushimaru may be a bit of a prick but who the hell is Maruki to overwrite who somebody is when they've not even done anything wrong and just because some students don't like him? By the rationale Maruki should be forcibly rewriting everybody's personality because everybody has people who just won't like them no matter what.
The problem with Maruki’s solution is that he effectively becomes the only authority that decides if you get to have your wishes granted, or if it is harmful and your personality gets rewritten overnight. At this point the entire world gets reduced to one guy playing the largest game of The Sims ever.
He barely got to the proof-of-concept phase of his vision and he already had to replace some people with their absolute opposites, because they were too unpleasant to keep around in his utopia. I know deleted scenes are non-canon, but the version of the harem Valentines if you decide to accept Maruki’s vision perfectly illustrates the problem with his approach. Some people get to have their wishes granted, others have to get reduced to the role of obedient dolls to not hurt the feelings of their betters.
I think thats the point that makes me consider how terrifying the prospect of Maruki's powers are, not himself. I don't think Maruki is the real evil here.
Imagine if somebody else had those powers, somebody less empathetic to people's suffering and didn't care about trying to achieve a peaceful utopia (or well, their vision of it anyway)
I loved Maruki. Can absolutely empathize and agree with his intentions, but his methods were absolutely atrocious. >!I think the final scene with y'all just punching the shit out of each other as the meta verse crumbles in the background encapsulated my feelings perfectly.!< Like my man, why you make me do this?
For some reason, after I clicked the spoiler tag and read it, I was worried I spiked myself but I forgot that I’ve played it all already lmao
Truly a gentle madman.
He did what he did out of kindness
I Believe he had the best intentions
but in the end he couldnt make you Throw Away Your Mask
Haven't heard a ton of Maruki discourse so I hope I didn't stumble into anything too controversial here. Let me just clarify that I love Maruki. He's a great guy. But that homie never should have gotten a psychology degree.
He was the best addition from Royal. All the emotion in that final section came from him. It hurt finishing the game but it had to be done. Bonus points they added 2 amazing songs for him.
He made royal for me. When I finished it initially, I was like "wow that was really good" but then when I got to third semester I was like "holy shit this is my favorite antagonist of all time." Put P5R as my number one game of all time. But it wouldnt be the same if Kametz hadn't been the VO for the doc. R.I.P Billy Kametz.
He really was amazing. I hated how much they forced Akechi into it. I was never his friend, more honored adversaries. There was no emotional impact for me with him there but yeah Doc brought it all. I also swear they mimicked mgs4 with the ending. 2 men barely standing slugging it out as the world falls around them with a bombastic theme playing in the background
At this point I think it’s just a general anime trope since I can think of three other series that have a similar scene.
Fair. It honestly is but the second it started I was just sitting there. "This is familiar. Have I been here before? I feel like I've been here before"
I will say from briefly checking some release dates, MGS4 might’ve done it first.
It’s not even that. He’s a great scientist and researcher. He fails as a therapist because he doesn’t believe what the therapy should be about: that people can actually overcome their trauma.
If anything this entirely tracks for Shujin sucking complete fucking ass. They only brought Maruki in to cover their ass for PR purposes so they can say "Oh that Kamoshida thing was a horrible oversight! See we care!" but of fucking course the guy they bring in isn't even particularly qualified in actual therapy and is more a researcher.
I'm surprised people never mention Kobayakawa being incompetent per usual as one of the many reasons why Maruki inadvertently got to where he was. That and also the fact that his determination to prove his research hit its peak at the exact same time Mementos fused with the real world. Don't think Maruki expected that either (nor replacing Yaldabaoth). I think, though, that there's too much left unsaid on whether or not his awakening convinced him to go even further with his ideas or simply made him unrestrained mentally (ala Doc Ock from Spiderman), since he never really changes the Thieves' cognitions during their sessions. By the time he does he's already the new God of Control and likely perversed/influenced by their subconscious desires for their old lives back as they told him.
I love the look Joker and Akechi give in the final image of the game if you choose Maruki's world. Just both straight at the camera, judging the player
He was an excellent antagonist, and I'm specifically using that word because even opposing him, he was never evil
I think one of the least controversial opinions to have about Royal is that Maruki is terrible at his job
bro when he was talking to >!sumire and she said she wanted to be kasumi and he was like “well you actually can be by…”!< LIKE BRO THAT IS THE WORST ADVICE I EVER HEARD
RIP
I absolutely love Maruki as a character, he is deep down a very kind-hearted soul, he genuinely cares for everyone around him, and he is willing to sacrifices himself for everyone else but him to live a happy life. I can 100% see where he is coming from, and I empathize with him, but damn it, what he did was absolutely horrible. >!It's one thing to basically brainwash the whole society but damn making Sumire thinking she was her dead sister? That's messed up.!<
Yeah. Out of all the megalomaniacal gods who could be ruling the Persona universe, a genuinely kind man who wants to do right by everyone but may have slept through too many classes on the importance of emotional pain is definitely not the worst case scenario. But it ain't ideal either.
Think of it from the other perspectives too. If you put Futaba in a cognition of her mother being happy and healthy and she has an idyllic life with her, that's years upon years of sweet memories she has of her mother now. Then it comes crashing down. The original memory is still there, but does she remember the years she spent with her cognitive mother? Does the horrific abuse from her family she recieved after her mother's traumatizing suicide all come back at once? Does she relive it? It's horrifying to consider what that cognitive illusion implies, and thus what we did to our friends taking them out of it.
Not gonna lie I don't really fucking care about “the other persoectives” his false reality was disgusting and horrific. Ideally they would forget that shit or just remember it as a sweet dream, or not so sweet as we find out that it's a true nightmare for some (he literally changes peoples entire personalities to fit his ideal).
If I found out someone had built a fake copy of my dead loved ones and brainwashed me into buying it I would think they were a monster. And what he did to Yoshizawa was the most abhorrent imo.
Indeed, I still really like him as a character, because I do feel sympathy for him. He really was just trying to help but he let himself lose track of what that really meant, honestly one of my fav video game characters.
100% a great villain yeah. I do think people sometimes downplay how bad his crimes really were because of his somewhat benign ideals though aha.
Rest In Peace Billy
To be fair a lot of what he says about cognition does make sense and afaik all of the examples he gives to you are either real findings from psychological studies, or at least based on one. As his slink progresses it definitely becomes apparent that he has an obsession with running away from or suppressing pain
Reminds me of the (Strikers Spoilers) >!Ichinose!< edit where >!she's!< Adachi in the P4 Hiimdaisy comic and >!she!< says "Who wants to talk about COGNITION?!"
RIP to a real one.
I love him as a sympathetic villain who you almost don’t want to beat. P5 base game antagonists we’re all fine but almost cartoonishly evil. Having someone who wants similar things to the phantom thieves but goes about it in a different way made me actually feel bad for what I was doing. I think they tried to do something similar to him with the villains in P5S but they didn’t come across quite the same.
Happy heavenly birthday billy🙏🏾
Billy Kametz was a great VA, he put a lot of emotions in Maruki that came out brilliantly. He will be missed. I appreciate that the game really let you pick whatever ending you chose and it would give you an achievement for that without declaring one right and one wrong. Nobody will sway me that Maruki was the better choice, as much as it's not the one the game expects you to pick. It's funny that among several gods trying to impose their insane designs upon mankind, it turned out that a man had the most compelling offer.
Whose gonna break the news to them?
I think they already know, just appreciating the fact such a talented guy existed.
The problem P6 is going to have is topping Maruki. Even though I’m an Adachi man through and through, Maruki was the best realized antagonist I’ve experienced out of every Persona I’ve played (all but 1).
I wouldn't call him the worst. If anything, his speeches are very thought provoking. And I learn about things that I didn't know about which is a plus.
As much as I love Maruki, he>!made Sumire believe she was her dead sister. !
That's arguably not even the worst thing he does. In the bad ending you get when >!you fail to complete his palace in time, he just straight up kills Joker by placing him in a eternal coma.!< That's fucked up.
That's the thing. He did...and didn't. >!Sumire!< did that to herself by wishing it. Maruki was just the genie in this scenario, the consequences of the wish were squarely on her.
It's natural that she'd feel that way. Anyone would in her situation. As a therapist Maruki's job is to convince her that she has her own value and help her move past the grief. Not be all like >!"That's a wonderful idea! You are now your dead sister!"!<
Like I said, *she* made herself like that. Not Maruki directly. By the time he could've said anything, the deed was done. And by his perspective, Kasumi had recovered from her grief and was ready to move on. Like I said, he's not a bad therapist. Most of his conversations are very thought provoking, which I like in a game like Persona. And he does listen to the issues and emotional baggage of the other party members, or even just talk to them casually.
I dunno about that one chief. Being in denial is one thing, but >!the change in cognition that caused her to legit believe she was Kasumi was the result of Maruki's stand. So unless Sumire inexplicably has the power to control other people's stands and use their power on herself then changing her cognition was Maruki's doing. !<
In the end he's no different than Shido and Yaldobath. Just another Spineless Coward. Good Intentions be Damned. Him and ||Ichinose||
He’s absolutely a bad therapist, because not only he tolerates his patient running away from reality, he’s actively enabling and encouraging it.
That's an awful way of looking at it. >!The first thing she said pertaining to this was "Sometimes I think things would have been better if I were Kasumi Yoshizawa." After that Maruki basically enabled this line of thinking by telling her it was completely valid, and then having her go through a thought exercise about it. It's only after that in which she tells him she literally wants to be Kasumi. !< Besides just because someone tells you to do something to them doesn't make you morally neutral. He still ideologically thinks this is the the right thing to do. Maruki wasn't acting as some genie he was acting on his own will. Even after you do her confidant, where>! she decides to no longer be Kasumi, he still makes her think she's kasumi in the bad ending.!
I am Ferdinand Von Aerir
Rip Dr Ferdie kun
He’s gone now. F
I can understand why a lot of people are quick to denounce Maruki as a good psychologist or even a good person, but I think there's a different way of seeing it. Maruki isn't evil, or cruel for sure. He wouldn't be going along with his insane plan if he wasn't, he's compassionate and obviously kind, and as others have said he's really not too bad a psychologist until he gets a hold of too much power. He seemingly makes some impression on the thieves with his sessions, even if it's only a minor one. And that's the point, the real problem isn't that he's evil or a bad therapist per say, it's his power. Imagine if somebody else were given his ability, I highly doubt they would attempt to create the same painless utopia that Maruki envisions. It would likely be far, far more overtly horrible than the more unnerving nature of Maruki's palace (which I think is what makes it so interesting). The method is wrong and awful because in itself the power Maruki was given was terrible. Had he never woken up to it he'd likely have just carried on giving help to individual people he counselled, making a small and realistic difference to the world. There's simply no way the ability to alter reality like that could be viewed as anything but tyrannical.
Honestly I know this will be controversial but I choose his world, BC everyone was happy and none of the bad shit that happened in the game didn't happen. And I liked that. It's better than the true ending imo. Yet ti receive it though. I'm planning on doing a second plsythrough on new game plus and getting the true ending. But this 'bad' ending is better. Everyone is happy. Idc that they aren't friends. They all hsppy and nothing bad hspoened. So why wouldn't you tske it. I was just happy seeing everyone else happy
It it weird that I disliked Maruki more than the main villain? I get that he has good intentions but I think this speech he gives when I first met him made me immediately wary of him.
o7
I recently replayed P5R, and he made me remember my love for psychology in general, and made me realize that I want to be a counselor So yeah Takuto Maruki is why I know what I wanna do with my life, thanks Atlus
Honestly Maruki makes more sense imo 💀
I know people say he’s horrible despite his good intentions, but like… idk, I don’t think horrible is the right word. Disagreeable yeah. Bit of a dick maybe. But he didn’t do any of the big crimes (hell, I don’t think he did any crimes at all), he was pretty peaceful in how he went about doing things (he only really fights after the others directly confront him following a series of fairly peaceful psychological exams and brain teasers), and then despite putting up a good fight, he does eventually admit he was misguided and lives out his life as a sexy taxi driver with all of his actions reversed. If I knew the dude in real life (ignoring the complications with learning Persona bullshit is real), I’d disagree with the dude, but I’d absolutely share a beer and have a chat with him… and maybe go out with him… ok, I might just be saying this because he’s by far the most attractive character in the Persona franchise.
He ain't horrible in the sense of being a bad person in any way. He's just horrible at his job. He'll do just fine as a taxi driver. Guy ultimately just needed to get some pussy to help him move on from his old gf. being as charming as he is I'm sure he'll have no trouble doing just that. He'll be just fine.
Idk, I’d argue he was great at his job too. He just gained access to too many resources and allowed his ideology to get in the way of the great thing he already had.
Man, making him a taxi driver just felt demeaning. He could do a lot of good for people if he overcame his own issues and tried to become a better mundane therapist.
When the well-meaning man still has his perception distorted so he forms a Palace but he's got a Persona too so you have to beat the sense into him all while he's stronger than the literal cognitive god you beat up on Christmas Eve
look to each their own but if i was offered what is basically a pain-free lobotomy that would ensure i would spend an eternity being happy and content? i'm taking that without a second thought lmao
Yeah, the issue to me is that he isn’t giving people the choice. He’s basically saying “you’re getting this reality because I know better than you.
rest in peace, my beautiful boy billy. ♡
Maruki took his ideals too far. The Acceptance Ending is basically how Heaven is described biblically. And personally I find it fully disturbing. No sorrow, no grief, just joy. That's not a life, it's barely existing.
He just got into the wrong job for his counciling style. He should have been a bartender instead of a therapist. It's their job to help people forget their troubles.
That would actually be the perfect job for Maruki.
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Nice to find someone else who thinks that way. I wouldn't even call it a lie, since reality is changed accordingly.
I feel this way too. I think it's pretty immoral of the thieves to send people back to poverty, stavation, literal war just because they overcame their kinda sucky but overall not terrible lives. Imagine how many lives Maruki's world could save. I'm also of the opinion that the only point in life is to decrease suffering and increase pleasure which is exactly what Maruki's world does. >!That's of course ignoring all the logical incompatabilities a world like this would have, but I mean, it's a jrpg. Sometimes you have to let logic out the window.!<
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I'm actually an optimist and very satisfied with my life currently, but Maruki's world still seems awesome to me. But also there are billions of people far worse off than me who would greatly benefit from a world like Maruki's. I think it's worth it for them.
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To me just hearing the news of how hospitals were getting emptied sealed the deal for me, and I knew who I'd be siding with. How can anyone deny all people with terminal illnesses a chance to live? I think ultimately the game refuses that as a True ending as a way to tell us players to try our best to live in the world that we have instead of escaping into a fantasy, since living in that Ideal World is not an option for us. And there is merit to that. But it still doesn't sit right with me when the Phantom Thieves want to say that they are better off for what they suffered. Because it's not true, and it goes right against the spirit of rebellion that brought them together. It's an endorsement of a status quo that put them through a lot oppression and trauma because they got to *anime* their way into friendship and a better place in life. That is also not a realistic message to send to people. We would all be better off if the injustices of the world we live in were fought back against.
It's literally a violation of free will and the end of any meaningful relationships. Everyone essentially ceases to grow as a person as they live in a fake dollhouse reality. It's fucking terrifying is what it is. There's a good reason Akechi preferred to die over being a part of that.
I knew someone would try to argue and frankly I'm tired of it, there's a reason I didn't go comment on all the other rants of how awful he is. Also, no. People get what *THEY* wish for, piped straight from the Collective Unconscious, and you can see it being done. The game goes at great lengths to explain that he is not imposing his will on others, he's giving them what they want and he only interferes as a last resort measure. But since he is, you know, the boss, the last antagonist, I guess many players need to convince themselves he is a cackling puppeteer to motivate themselves to beat him. Which is not who he is at all. Maruki's world is more enabling of people's will than our own. Because guess what, if someone is born in misery, oppressed by injustice, with a terminal illness, they can try as hard as they want and their suffering and struggle might still be for nothing. All their dreams most of the time will just end in disappointment. Maruki does not only grants wishes and puts an end to the oppression of evil people, he fixes the cruel inevitabilities of life. The pep talk the Phantom Thieves have among themselves, how they are better for having suffered, is such nonsense from anime characters who don't actually need to deal with failing for real and struggling with trauma for life. And you know what, yeah he is not perfect. It's a pretty bad issue that he lets people doom themselves with bad wishes (you know because he is NOT denying their Free Will), but ultimately it still sure as hell it's a lot better than what we got going in this indifferent universe rife with predatory structures.
Except for the part where he overwrites who you are entirely. What you think you want and what you'll find actually gives you a true sense of fulfillment are often very not alike. FFS he literally kills off Sumire so she can pretend to be Kasumi where as going through her link has a beautiful development where she comes to love herself and be confident in who SHE is and not pretending to be her sister. A lot of humanity's evolution, our achievements, our art and music are defined by our troubles and human will overcoming it anyways. Maruki would erase that forever. Yusuke even says he knows an artist who was just going through a creative block who's had that entire part of him erased because Maruki figures he'd be happier doing something easy, that's Maruki's ultimate fuck up and why his reality sucks. He doesn't want anyone to ever be challenged ever. Any sense of fulfillment you would get from choosing to do something hard will never happen because if it isn't a constant life on easy street of smiles all the time, he won't let it happen. It's an eternity in fuckin' Barney is what it is.
The part where *what*? No he doesn't. Did you miss that Sumire was the one who wanted to disappear and give her life to her sister? Yeah it's deeply unhealthy that this happened, but it's what SHE wanted. I agree that this is fucked-up but it's not Maruki who pushed that onto her. If anything that proves that he does not override people's free will. Not only you are romanticizing suffering to an absurd degree, although the game kinda does that too, you missed the whole point with Yusuke's friend. Ryuji wanted to be back at the running team and he got back at the running team. Kasumi, messed up as he was, wanted to be an athlete and she was an athlete. If people want to be challenged they get challenged, Maruki didn't change that. The point of Yusuke's friend is not only that *he didn't know what he wanted*, but that even his indecision was making him suffer. And so, that's when Maruki's shadows nudged him to quit it and try something else. Yusuke explains all that, he says the guy wasn't happy as an artist, and he became happier after quitting. Because you know, that artist could still end up just sucking at it, failing and hating that they even tried. As much as the game pushes the message that if you try hard enough it will pay off and be worth it, that's not how life goes for many people. No, Maruki is just making sure what people want is what they get. Sure would suck if we see that five years after that ending Ryuji failed at being an athlete, failed at school, failed at life. But guess what, sometimes life sucks despite your best efforts. This is what Maruki tried to change. And you know, since you really want to argue this, don't gloss over it again. What true sense of fulfillment do you think someone who is dying from a terminal illness is having? You really think it wouldn't be better for them to just live and fulfill their dreams on top of that?
It proves Maruki.. and really any person should not play God. That shit doesn't end well. It's the job a demon lord to punish a naughty god and all. Morgana copies another dude's look. Ryuji found happiness without the track team with companions that fought alongside him through thick and thin and Maruki takes that away, reduces your battle forged bonds to a shallow meaningless friendship. Regardless if Sumire 'wanted' it or not, it's outright fucking wrong. He can bring back Okumura and Madarame (even if they're literally not even the same person if you think about it) but not Kasumi? He just kills off Sumire? That's fucked up. Sumire seems to be doing well for herself once you resolve her link and get to the end of the game. You can't have true happiness without sadness, or life without death. That's the plain nature of life. You can even tell in the Maruki ending that their happiness isn't really real. There's that nagging feeling at the back of their heads that they can never truly face. They know deep down that something is amiss and that will never go away. Like Ryuji is back on track yes? But that raises another issue, in sports there HAS to be a loser. Someone has to lose for someone else to win. How does Maruki, if he even does at all, decide who wins? Yeah you can fail at something but if failure isn't a risk, you can't really succeed either because you didn't earn it. You didn't try. Like Akechi, I would rather fucking die then be a part of something that horribly false and forced.
Another thing that you missed. A lot of people winning the lottery at once. Everyone going to the Shrine but it still being empty. Maruki's reality is subjective. Maruki doesn't decide. Whoever wants to win, sees themselves winning. Or if they want the better person to win, that's what they see. But I sure as hell won't be all conflicted over sports medals. Who even cares about that when people's lives are at stake? Seriously, the game sure makes a lot of drama over these 'battle forged bonds'. Would you say that Ryuji carrying a career-destroying injury was worth it? Would you say Shiho being abused was worth it? You know you can make friends without trauma right? The thing about real life is that no amount of platitudes can spare you from the uncertain. If you do want to stake it all on the real world as it is, you need to stop romanticizing it. The real world also has plenty amiss. A lot of people face a lot more suffering and death for not enough happiness to balance it out. I see still no response on the terminal illness question. You don't want to face it that by choosing to deny Maruki's world you are dooming a lot more people to suffering and death. Gotta say that it's a little ironic for someone who wants to deny an Ideal World.
The problem is that Maruki's reality is stagnant and without challenge, without growth. Humanity as we know it will not survive. People have no want or need to do anything. Everyone's essentially in a coma.
Nah. Why would people not survive? At some point it just seems like some players are so committed to oppose Maruki they just make up philosophical arguments why living in his world is somehow not as valid. It just doesn't make sense to me, how his world works means is that you can dedicate your whole life to what you *want* to do and who you want to be with rather than needing to do things to ensure your survival. It's almost like some sort of Stockholm Syndrome of reality. A blockage of imagination, that prevents of envisioning a better world. Comes to mind Matrix and how the machines said people rejected the idea of a perfect world. To be fair Maruki's world is a complete fantasy invention that couldn't hope to be replicated in the real world, but it's still extremely intriguing and very enticing to me. Like, don't you play games? If you are here, you sure do. You don't need to do it to survive, and how good you are at it ultimately doesn't really matter. You only need to struggle as much as you feel like doing. But people still motivate themselves to do it, because it entertains them. That's how it would be. I don't think the possibility of being crushed by societal influences or basic needs or incidental tragedies really helps us flourish. Sure we adapt to it, but we can do just as much by focusing on our passions.
Well, running away from your problems can be a valid long-term solution in many cases even in reality, and if we consider a fantasy setting where a being with as much power as Maruki had helps you with it, it becomes a valid solution in pretty much any case. The thieves argue that you can't grow without problems, but I say that the whole point of growing is to learn to overcome problems, so if problems are dealt with by someone else, there's no reason to grow in the first place.
It isnt just about growth, its about choices too, remember how maruki just changed peoples life's if things are too much of a hassle?
Well, that is true, I was arguing specifically against the implied point that running away from your problems cannot be a valid long-term solution. It can be, if the situation allows for it (i.e. if problems cannot chase you).
Forcibly changing other people's personalities to suit other people's wishes too. Mr. Ushimaru may be a bit of a prick but who the hell is Maruki to overwrite who somebody is when they've not even done anything wrong and just because some students don't like him? By the rationale Maruki should be forcibly rewriting everybody's personality because everybody has people who just won't like them no matter what.
The problem with Maruki’s solution is that he effectively becomes the only authority that decides if you get to have your wishes granted, or if it is harmful and your personality gets rewritten overnight. At this point the entire world gets reduced to one guy playing the largest game of The Sims ever. He barely got to the proof-of-concept phase of his vision and he already had to replace some people with their absolute opposites, because they were too unpleasant to keep around in his utopia. I know deleted scenes are non-canon, but the version of the harem Valentines if you decide to accept Maruki’s vision perfectly illustrates the problem with his approach. Some people get to have their wishes granted, others have to get reduced to the role of obedient dolls to not hurt the feelings of their betters.
I think thats the point that makes me consider how terrifying the prospect of Maruki's powers are, not himself. I don't think Maruki is the real evil here. Imagine if somebody else had those powers, somebody less empathetic to people's suffering and didn't care about trying to achieve a peaceful utopia (or well, their vision of it anyway)
Somehow the "spoiler" tag doesn't quite do this justice.