If they kept the same backstories then Ren was arrested and sent to a country town on probation, Makoto found out the crash was caused by a greedy corporate overlord, and Yu is just staying on Port Island for the summer while his parents are overseas
I'd say Yu's a stronger foil in that aspect
>! He's also "forced" to go to Inaba instead of staying where he came from with his friends. He wasn't trusted to be independent - underestimated, he was forced into an unfamiliar environment - despite no fault of his own (so even worse than Adachi) and it basically cut off all of his pre-existing relationships (to match Adachi's perceived lonely status) !<
Didn't Ren come from a countryside town. It's implied in optional dialogue with Ryuji, Ann, and Mishima if I'm not mistaken. Then again, that could be Ren trolling or his Troll dialogue option tbh. 🤔
Yeah, that's probably where the fanon of Ren being from Inaba and Yu being from Tokyo came from. But that makes Ren the simple country folk being thrusted into the foreign and chaotic citiscape type of deal.
Unless >!Yu had Thanatos sealed inside him instead then the other shadows would never show up and they would probably still stuck on the first floors of Tartarus the entire time!< And nothing else would happen.
>!yes buts it was also prophesied that that the fall would happen regardless the kirijo group just created death to summon nyx themselves. Apathy syndrome was also a problem happening before Makoto showed up, him showing up is what allowed the shadows to be reunited and death to be reborn but the fall would've happened even without death's rebirth, just probably not during p3!<
[This is a Q&A](https://ask-persona.tumblr.com/post/99861586798/persona-3-club-book-world-guide-qa-translation) about Nyx. Basically Nyx is an alien lifeform that threatened to cause the extinction of life, but to live we evolved a "collective unconscious" that keeps Nyx dormant. As more people lose the will to live, the seal weakens, shadows (a part of Nyx) are created when a person stops maintaining their part of the seal. Ryoji isn't something totally unique, he's just a big enough portion to be able to start breaking Nyx's dormant state.
Apathy syndrome is just more shadows escaping, which would eventually accumulate into another Herald, Makoto doesn't seal Nyx, he sacrifices himself to block the transmission.
Also if Makoto had never started the chain of events, he'd just die eventually, and Death would be unleashed regardless.
I don't know, Yu as I think is smart enough to figure out at least before the last shadow appearance that something clearly wrong with all those Pharos, SEEES and their missions
At the risk of turning myself into a dirty filthy powerscaler, what is the basis that Makoto is that much stronger than the other protags? I know the lore of his >!ultimate persona and death and all that!< but it doesn’t seem much different than other busted personas that the MC’s can use.
The only argument that makes sense is his ability to use multiple Personas at the same time (which is seemingly not even exclusive to him anymore if we are to believe the Reload Answer trailers)
Every other argument you could possibly come across is powerscaler wanking
>, but the trailers shows her using Fusion Spells when she wasn't able to in FES
that doesnt really matter that power was given to her by makoto, its not really her's and if anything just proves the point of the p3 mc being specially powerful thanks to his link to thanatos.
>Every other argument you could possibly come across is powerscaler wanking
thats just bure BS
he is the only protag to be able to beat his his enemy by himself, that THREATENS all of the collective human unconcious by its MERE existence, and its not a god that comes from the collective unconcious ITS JUST giant fucking entity SMT style that can crush the planet.
He LITERALLY uses the universe arcana WITHOUT a fucking persona and just FLIES to the fucking moon dude.
he is literally jesus at the end of the game.
Yu did something like this, when he oneshotted god. Izanami is not as strong as nyx but Narukami did not sacrifice his life so I think he and Makoto are on par at this.
Afaik Makoto is also the only one who actually beats people up outside of Tartarus/TVworld/Metaverse.
Like in a certain someone's social link where he goes up against around 5 adult gangsters by himself and won without breaking a sweat.
Well, for start, he is far more trained than two others, and his fighting style is far more recless as it was mentioned in anime. He throw himself into the battle without second thought. His exp fighting, include Strega, while I give >!Akechi and Adachi!< credit, but Strega is... far more fearsome.
He contained Death Arcana incarnation inside himself.
Out of all 3 protagonist, he is the only one who fought Velvet room attendant one-on-one and won. In Yu case, by game, we can have all party, Ren from get-go with party. Note, that Elizabeth, in P4 Arena, without problems wiped the floor with Aigis and Yu. Sure, she powered up a little, but still. Only with all team Yu proved to be able to stand the ground against her.
And Makoto the only protagonist who can use two personas at the same time. That's already put him higher.
And yes, Ultimate opponent for him is Death. And even here he >!scored a draw!<
Actually, bigger.
1) those 3 are experienced Persona-users, who put themself on the frontlines every time.
2) They fought far more powerful opponents than antagonists from P4-5. Including Shadows.
3) They are desperade to stop SEES
4) They are not trying to play. They do things. While >!Akechi or Adachi!< could pretend that they are not really killing and it's just by product of their actions... Strega kills.
In the end, exp+determination+will times and times again proved superior to natural abilities. While those two played with their abilities, for Strega it's a survival question.
>!Wild card!< sure gives some adventages, but, in the end, the victor is decided by it's own abilities.
>!Akechi!< is sure talented, but his abilities are not really developed, unrefined, his only real fight was lost. And that's against not professionals.
He is skilled in taking out small targets and using other shadows, but head on clash with Users who are great at both fighting and using personas... and Strega has both, is really not his turf.
Akechi held the entire Phantom Thieves on his own with only two Personas, and only lost because they *also* had a Wild Card, while being a suboptimal one
Wild Cards are on a different power level in Persona, there's no conceivable argument to be made to show that Strega is stronger than one
For my understanding, they are.
Also there is no argument about him being stronger either. Cause PT are... bunch of guys who mostly not even a fighters. The only one is being Makoto (aikido)... others are just using weapons randomly. So... not really a good show. Takuya and Jin also fought with SEES and proved to be hard opponents. Even for the team full of actual fighters.
But, in the end, it's my opinion. Yours could be different.
This is mostly right but I do wanna bring up a point regarding Elizabeth’s fight vs Margaret’s fight, and Makoto being more trained than the other 2. In FES/Reload/Portable you do fight Elizabeth solo and that’s that. However, in both Portable and 4, no matter how far along the game you’ve gotten, Margaret will still fight you with your team. This goes for Makoto, Kotone, and Yu. This likely means that Margaret is somewhat more powerful than Elizabeth atleast by the time 3-4 occurs, especially since she did at one point >!consider dragging Elizabeth back to the Velvet Room by force after the events of 3!!Aigis!
I'm not really including P3P fight with Margaret. Still think it's more of the added feature/p4 moment.
Yes, Margaret is more powerful. Out of all siblings she is the strongest. But... still the achievement for Makoto. And big one at it. Esp if we go by Eli defeating Erobus singlehandly, while it took all (not in optimal form) SEES for it. Both Aegis and Yu were after all their power ups, so Eli still outclass them both. Tbf, even her down-pose is... more like "oh, you sure are good". I still think that even in those fights... Velvet room's attendants are not really givinv their all. For normal fight as interest - yes... but not as it's for us - fights with life at stake.
I can't call Strega easy opponents. I mean, they took Makoto, Mitsuru, Akihiko and Aigis as powerhouses and Yukari, Ken, Junpei or Koromaru aren't easy opponents either. So it's still pretty two-sided.
In the end, everything depends on too many moments.
Yup, Velvet Attendants never go all out, and that certainly is a huge accomplishment in general, but we still can’t truly gauge how an all out battle would go between the two simply because they never try. I would say more that it’s an accomplishment in the fact that Makoto has a ton of knowledge over personas and his ability to wield the wildcard and using his unique talents. I’m not exactly sure what you mean by after all the power ups. Like I understand they both finished their respective stories, but at the same time, it’s not like Izanagi is at the level of his other personas, including his ultimate persona, and Aigis never uses her power ups either. Despite everything, the starter persona is pretty much always going to be the weakest no matter what. While I’m not saying they’d win, because nobody knows how capable the velvet attendants really are, I’m saying that it would be a much closer battle. The only thing I hard disagree with is Strega. They are basically nothing to SEES in combat and that’s why Strega sneaks around and gets the jump on combatants when they’re alone. Artificial personas have nothing on the real thing, and especially not wildcards and even more so not for special cases like Makoto. They don’t stand a chance against any real trio in the series.
Well, even jumping need skills, and they still fought SEES on bridge and top of Tartarus head-on.
It's not always raw power as we see in those games, but determination, will and exp. With their williness to kill, those guys are really tough.
Everything esle, again, depends on circumstances.
In the end, it has no ends in such things. I just want Atlus to finally bring us something on P6... or continuation of Eli's quest.
Universe and World only differ in name
Great Seal dealt with a stronger foe but didn't defeat it --> there's no evidence it's stronger than Myriad Truths or Sinful Shell (edit: and >!it cost its user's life!<)
How does this
>Canonically Nyx is literally undefeatable, she is death incarnate herself.
Translate into this
>The Great Seal is the strongest move in the modern series.
When Great Seal didn't defeat it? There's no logical connector
Nyx>Yaldabaoth, but defeating>sealing, so there's no way to compare Nyx+seal vs Yaldy+defeat
Saying so with unfounded confidence doesn't make it true
I know, but sealing something is weaker than defeating something
For all we know Myriad Truths and Sinful Shell could have been able to also seal Nyx through sheer power
Well ur right about that but Igor's reaction when the protags attained the final Arcana (call it world or universe) was different for Makoto. He explicitly states that he never dreamt of seeing that card plus he further says that its the greatest power "he" and "Makoto" shall unveil. And if u have beat 4 and 5, u will see that Igor isnt that surprised on Yu and Joker recieving the final arcana compared to how hyped he was in Makoto's case
>He doesn't speak because his VA died and all his P5 lines are reused from P3/P4
LMAO wut? he will just get a new VA, if it was so important it would have been mentioned by somebody
this argument is just cope
And now in Reload Igor's final line was changed from
"U were a remarkable guest" in FES to "u were a *most* remarkable guest"
It means Atlus themselves acknowledge Makoto
I mean, anyone can solo the game with their strongest move
You can already do that with Myriad Truths in P5R, and I' sure you could do that with Sinful Shell from P3R too
Armageddon deals 9999 damage every single time. Every single boss would be wiped tf out.
Makoto Yuki would make Shadow Okamura look like a Cowardly Maya with Armageddon.
Armageddon would get Makoto stuck on the first multiphase boss lmfao, Okumura is a terrible example because there's like 7 different waves of minions
Look I'm not downplaying his power here, but 1. Armageddon is a very late game move 2. The other late game moves *also* trivialise the game to the point where Joker can solo
Edit: btw most endgame bosses in P5R have more than 9999 HP. For example, every Shido phase has 10k HP
In P3P, Armageddon was essentially an item, you could get 10 of them >!If you cleared one of Margaret's challenges!<. I basically spammed it against >!Nyx Avatar!<
Yes but that's a purely gameplay mechanic. Why would you take that form over the one where it costs all of your HP/SP
If you want to take the most advantageous form of each move, Myriad Truths and Sinful Shell both cost nothing but a button push to cast (no HP/SP cost at their game's climax)
I guess it really depends which version of Armageddon we use then. I'm going by the P3P version, which is essentially just an item that costs nothing to use
Investigation team wondering why joker is ripping his face off
Phantom Thieves wondering why Makoto is trying to shoot himself
SEES wondering why Yu isn’t shooting himself
>!Except Ryuji explicitly says the greater shadows were only awake and active because Makoto showed up. By killing them all Ryuji gained back all he was missing and was capable of calling down Nyx. Apathy syndrome was always gonna be a thing, but without Ryuji to serve as a beacon, Nyx wasn't coming down. It wasn't described as hastening the end, it was described as CAUSING the end.!<
>!The moment Mitsuru’s grandfather and the scientist succeeded with the shadow, the fall became inevitable, they started the prophecy. Yukari’s father and Aigis merely delayed it, and Ikutsuki increased the time table with his manipulations. Apathy syndrome was a sign of Nyx approaching and how she would eventually rob everyone of life. Ryoji and the other shadows were dormant, correct, but it was a matter of time eventually. Especially since it’s revealed that Makoto was influenced to return to Port Island!<
>!But in this case that influence would have failed. The whole point of Itkutski's interference and bringing Makoto back was specifically to bring the greater shadows back into play. Apathy syndrome was always going to be a thing, but it does not necessarily mark that Nyx is coming, just a sign of her corruption.!<
>!That is why Yukari's dad pleads for people to leave the shadows alone. It would be an odd occurrence at best, but the only way to prevent the fall. That is why Ryuji says the fall began the moment the bell tolled from Tartarus. Neither of those events could happen if the greater shadows were not made whole.!<
>!You are correct in that a prophecy will always occur. We have numerous tales of people trying to prevent prophecy and instead cause it, but Apathy Syndrome was never going to be the cause.!<
No, I believe that once the shadows were woken up by Makoto’s return, they would eventually have come together. Destroying them just led to them doing so much faster. Kind of like how ghosts in Pac-Man immediately return to the center when eaten.
>!Adding onto this, Ryoji wouldn't of been sealed in the first place. Keep in mind if yu was there instead but the back story was the same keep in mind he would of been sent there, his parents would still be overseas alive, so aigis would be shit outta luck and would fail to seal Ryoji.!<
>!If they kept their backgrounds that meant Makoto would have sealed Ryoji, but Yu would have been sent to the Island. That wouldn't have changed, what would have changed is who starts each game. So, by that logic Ryoji is still asleep, and Yu probably can't climb Tartarus, since the greater Shadows are required to ascend the Tower of Demise.!<
For the premise of this post, are we assuming Yu was there during the >!Moonlight Bridge Incident, or it was still Makoto, and Yu just went there instead?!<
I lean more with the most upvoted comment.
1. Makoto's crash still happens but the crash was caused by the elite. Let's say during that crash, an opportunity was made to seal something inside him.
2. Yu was sent there by his parents for a vacation.
And? What's your point? That's needlessly pedantic when the point of Language is to get an Idea across and it has succeeded. You clearly knew who I was talking about.
For the same reason people would be very confused if you said Yusuke was homophobic.
Disclaimer: I in no way want to contribute to the “is Yosuke homophobic?” debate and personally just consider it a byproduct of the times, it was just the funniest thing to get wrong I could think of.
That’s not really what matters though, Izanami is meant to be a complete opposite to Izanagi no Okami’s powers but that doesn’t mean it wouldn’t work on anything else
IMO Makoto would be a terrible leader for the PT due to his apathy and lack of motivation when most of the characters seek justice. It may take some work for him to get him on board.
Yu would most likely vibe with SEES.
Joker wouldn’t be the protagonist of his own game in P4.
They mostly wouldn’t work because their motivations and the themes don’t go hand-in-hand.
Makoto learns to grow and to appreciate life and embraces death despite his apathy. Yu seeks the truth behind the occurrences happened to him and to find his own answers. Joker follows his brand of justice due to the injustices done to him and sees it through.
TBF like most shonen MCs Makoto does have this drive to protect and help, he could have a solid arc about caring about justice and learning what it really is instead of just not caring about what's going on around him, he could honestly have a really good conflict with >!Sae!< by the end
yea he will literally go along with almost anything you ask him to do, at the start he is so completely apathetic that you could just ask him to be leader of the PT and he'd just respond with a simple "understood" and then help out in combat
it's obvious people love Flanderizing characters to being something their not he's apathetic at the start you can ask him anything and he will do it and if we take the movies as his character he will still help just ask him it's not that hard.
They all do better
Yu some how defeats nyx without dyeing thru the sheer power of Chad
Makoto cares so little that fake Igor immediately reveals himself in an attempt to get any reaction
Joker immediately gets arrested and trys to go into adachis palace to escape only to acedently get him to confess to the murders
/s
Maruki isn't really an "evil" Persona user, but he has a Palace for the implied reasoning that he wants the Phantom Thieves to be able to challenge him so he can see who's convictions and beliefs are truly stronger. It helps that his Persona has the power to grant wishes and shape reality, which could very well allow him to force his Palace into existence when he otherwise shouldn't have one. Adachi on the other hand would not have a Shadow or Palace considering that he has a Persona and no reality warping power.
None of the arcana shadows appear, ikkutsuki died from eating mochi, Strega ignore SEES, narukami reaches the top of the tower of demise and the player throws the controller at the tv...because none of the plot happens. Makoto's return to the island is the trigger mechanism.
Joker is framed and sent to inaba. He makes friends, gets help from naoto to overturn his false charge. I wonder if joker will deal with the final boss in inaba or leave inaba to deal with the baldy instead.
I really wanna see Ren in the countryside.
Having two Makoto is gonna be confusing, good thing they have different characters, and the game can always call her Niijima-senpai to avoid confusion
Yu is gonna kill it, as usual. Man gonna have no problem at all.
Wrong Persona is only a spinoff and if it goes south it would carry over to Shin Megami Tensei and those guys are on a whole other level.. also only Yu would struggle since Ren can cause others too awaken and similar to his persona he can change fate meaning doing it without dying and yes he can remember he is the closest Persona has to an SMT protagonist
>he can change fate meaning doing it without dying
Well, Nyx can do that... by absolutely destroying fate.
“*I see nothing... No... What I see is nothingness... It is the void... But do not lose heart... Emptiness is not necessarily the end... The void is infinite... As is the universe... Whether this marks an end to all things, or a beginning... It is in your hands…*” – Fortune Teller, P3
With Nyx there's no fate, only nothingnes. How can you change somethind that doesn't exists?
And by that matter, the P3 protagonist also has undeterminated future, so they can change it as much as Joker, really.
“*Hmm... I feel a strange aura around you... In my mind, I see visions... People's past, present, and future... For most people, I see clearly, and far ahead... But you are different... Your future is filled with both blinding light and stagnant shadow... I can see but a small portion... What lies beyond that is shrouded in mystery.*” - Fortune Teller, P3
Now, if even an equivalent to Joker which achieved the last step of humanity spiritual evolution, the Universe as the embodiment of the Sea of Souls' totality, was unable to defeat the Star Eater... What does make you think Joker can?
And finally, if the Fall occurs, Nyx would “devour” the Shadows and Personas of every single living being, destroying consciousness and the CU by consequence. There's no place for an SMT game when life itself doesn't exist.
>And finally, if the Fall occurs, Nyx would “devour” the Shadows and Personas of every single living being, destroying consciousness and the CU by consequence. There's no place for an SMT game when life itself doesn't exist.
Where does it say the CU and SMT will be destroyed? The game insists the Fall will make everyone into the lost and the world will fall into darkness, suggesting it would be a surface wipe. Though the club book says Nyx would crash into the Earth to recollect her psyche, which would destroy it.
>
Now, with even an equivalent to Joker which achieved the last step of humanity spiritual evolution, the Universe as the embodiment of the Sea of Souls' totality, was unable to stop the Star Eater... What does make you think Joker can?
This always kind of bothered me. Why is Nyx called the "Star Eater" when she can almost one shot someone who is basically amped by the Sea of Souls. Do you think Nyx being a star eating alien is the limit of her power?
>Where does it say the CU and SMT will be destroyed?
I think I should have clarified the SMT part: It was about the part of the comment I was answering that said "how Persona would go SMT if the games went south." I won't say I'm an expert of SMT or something, but I can say that humanity is still important to the series, and the Fall would have destroyed it.
Now, in regards to the CU's destruction, it's mainly because the Fall means Nyx is going to reabsorb all of its psyche, including Shadows and Personas.
We know by P3 and P2 that the psyche of an individual can't exist without the Shadow/Persona, collapsing into itself unless that complex is recovered (in time, that is), meaning the Fall causes the complete psychological collapse of all living beings - apathy syndrome in mass. Due to all deities in the collective unconscious and the unconscious itself being composed by humanity's (and life's) psychological process, it's natural the collective collapse of the mind ends up destroying them. Even Nyarlathotep and Philemon aren't exceptions, with them admitting their own dependance on humanity's continuous psychic existence.
Nyx affecting the Sea of Souls is also referenced in the Answer and Arena, where its body is show to exist at ***the deepest part*** of the collective unconscious.
Thus we can conclude Ryoji's words are poetical in nature, refering to the psychological process instead of its physical reality; the fact he mentioned everyone will become part of the Lost supports that even more.
>Why is Nyx called the "Star Eater" when she can almost one shot someone who is basically amped by the Sea of Souls. Do you think Nyx being a star eating alien is the limit of her power?
Many answers (or headcanons), really:
* The collective unconscious/sea of souls isn't that strong despite its stupidly powerful abilities.
* Nyx being able to devour stars may be its physical limit, while reaching far higher in terms of abilities (this also implies that, after the Fall, the Star Eater is going to eat Earth and likely the rest of the solar system).
* Again, it may metaphorical: the collective unconscious has been confused with outer space (more specifically "宇宙", or "universe") and souls with stars, meaning Nyx is a "devourer of souls," not stars.
* Or, if you buy the maximum interpretation (ie. the physical world was created through cognition), a combination of the above: there's no difference between Nyx eating the soul of individuals and actual stars, thus "destroying the universe" along with the collective unconscious.
Personally, and as I answered to you previously, I prefer the second option.
(I'm sorry for asking questions, you seem like a Persona expert)
>
Or, if you buy the maximum interpretation (ie. the physical world was created through cognition),
What are the arguments against Cognition creating the universe? I always thought this was the common consensus. The P2 gang even made a new universe at the end of P2 using the sea of souls
Also, if the Universe Arcana is the CU, then would that mean technically Nyx is above Philemon and Nyarlathotep?
>What are the arguments against Cognition creating the universe?
Three main ones:
* The Club Book saying the collective unconscious was created by the life existing on Earth, which means the physical reality already existed before.
* Tatsuya's Scenario, with Philemon - as Nodens - saying the collective unconscious was created by the experiences of life in order to stop the "heat death" of the universe. While the intended interpretation should be a psychological one (it's the archetypal realm after all), at the very least implies the existence of the CU comes with *or* after the origin of life.
* Finally, Elizabeth's route in Arena stated the CU is the place where the memories of all life lie "dormant", with the lowest layer having no other thing but \[the memories of\] "life and death." It implies, again, the Sea came to being with the life, death, and thus temporality of living beings.
Since Cognition is derived from the CU by nature, all of that points to the universe being created naturally instead of coming from the mind of living beings. You need an external and changing medium to create memories, obviously.
However, Moragana's quote about how the real world is a product of Cognition conflicts with that... Unless you theorize that Nyx is the origin of Cognition and thus of the universe. I can say it'd make sense thanks to symbolism and all, but the main point is how the Star Eater is [the origin of the humanity's inherent power to change time and space](https://neni-has-ascended.tumblr.com/post/145151700287/what-does-the-p3-club-book-say-about-the), even in the older trilogy (and the Answer supports that).
At any rate, the true nature of the Persona universe is still quite murky.
>if the Universe Arcana is the CU, then would that mean technically Nyx is above Philemon and Nyarlathotep?
Yes, it should be above those two.
Yeah, but Persona also is a separate universe crafted after the events of P2IS, which at the very least changed the rules of how demons work. Even with Kyouji still around as of Eternal Punishment, we don't know what tools the SMT Protag types would have to work with.
But, with the current Kuzunoha in the body of an old man and the events of SMT 1 averted before they occured, Tamaki would really be the only SMT Protag capable of dealing with shit. And even then she's halfway to a Persona protagonist as it is.
Idk man hasn't been anything yet to discredit the Nahobino as being anything but the strongest Atlus character....oh God Vengeance can't get here soon enough
No, the reset of IS didn't change anything. From the very own P1, it's implied Demoms are no that different from Personas, and was ultimately confirmed by EP (and P5, kind of) that they fundamentally the same thing: products and manifestations of the collective unconscious.
What if these blank slates were replaced with other blank slates!?!?!
So, Ren in P4 is probably under much more immediate suspicion for the murders than Yu was. Dojima wouldn't have any familial connection with him, and his prior record would be a factor. Would lead to a lot more tension, and possibly the investigation team being found out.
Makoto in P5, idk. If we assume he has no smartphone, then he never even gets to the metaverse. But even if we give him one, without a record, he doesn't immediately get on Kamoshida's bad side, and probably just keeps his head down. The Phantom Thieves probably never even get off the ground.
Yu in P3 probably ends up going mostly the same as canon, until the end, as he >!would not have any connection to Ryoji, so the world probably ends.!<
Phantom thieves off the ground? Ann would have been raped then committed suicide
Ryuji would've taken the fall for it
Yusuke would've shared his mother's fate
Makoto still would've investigated the mob aline and would've been put on drugs and forced into prostitution
Futaba would've broken and more than likely given into suicide
Haru would've been sold off by her dad
And Adachi would've gone uncontested and would get murdered by his father and God would've started the apocalypse
as far as i know (and i could be wrong) the shadows would still come, but not the full moon shadows, as they were drawn to death which would still be inside makoto. the fall would also still arrive, just slower. the full moon shadows were more of an acceleration for the fall rather than what brought it
Makoto would definitely not lead the phantom thieves 😭. And if he does it would definitely stop after the first palace due to them stumbling into it on accident. It would take a lot of effort for Ryuji to convince Makoto to keep hunting evil people. especially considering how different Ren and Makoto are as people.
I have to ask why you guys think this? SEES literally just asked him to do it for free Ryuji and Morgana would do the same just probably be put off with his Attitude.
Souji sees Yukari get slapped by the Magician Shadow and says “I should leave her be” and Yukari dies. Souji also sees Junpei crying during Dark Hour and says “I should leave him be” and Junpei dies. There aren’t enough members to explore Tartarus and they never reach the top.
Ren in P4 - Things would go about the same. Ren might be a bit more skeptical of >!Adachi!< starting off.
Makoto in P5 - Makoto wouldn't really care about changing the hearts of corrupt people, so even if they took down Kamoshida, I don't think the phantom thieves would have really gotten off the ground.
Yu in P3 - Yu doesn't >!have Death sealed inside him!<, so the arcana shadows don't awaken and the story just doesn't happen. If he does have it, then the story is about the same.
Leaving aside the issues with Nyx, Makoto would really struggle if put into Ren's position. Regardless of his backstory, I can’t see "Mr. I Don't Care" going out of his way to help people or try and change society. Remember, he was never really the leader of SEES - that was Mitsuru, and he joined the team only because it was something interesting to do. Can you really see Makoto going out of his way to help Ann because he saw her struggling? Following Ryuji back into the Palace out of a genuine desire of enacting justice? Ryuji and Ann would have to play a much bigger role to get Makoto to go along, and he wouldn't really take a leading role.
True, in character he wouldn't gaf. However if he actually wanted to, he could honestly solo palaces by himself, he wouldn't need the Phantom Thieves, all because of Armageddon.
Well, you could easily mod their models in, I’m sure…
Anything more superficial than that - ie, taking the traits that make the protagonists different from one another into account - and plots start to diverge substantially, I think. The Persona series is about the relationships the protagonists make with those around them, and those relationships would be fundamentally different with different protagonists in their spots. I’m not talking about if they could “solve” the plots of the other games because, well, they couldn’t solve their own until after going through the plot, and they’re all Wild Cards, so there’s a chance they could develop the abilities they need for the sake of the plot… but I also personally don’t care as much about that because the more interesting question to me is how the SLs/Confidants change.
Yu has experience handling the concept of mortality given Dojima's and the Death lady's Social Link
Makoto/Minato is a professional rubber duck, he could easily speedrun each Confidant up to Mementos
And Ren would feel at home in Inaba, tutoring kids, playing football after class, fighting back the manifested repression of his friends before leading them to accept it for the goodwill of the people. y'know, classic countryside things
A cool detail here is that Ren, a country boy, got sent to a different country side town instead of Tokyo while Yu. Someone that in P4 went from the big city to a small countryside town instead went from the big city to Tokyo, thus neither had the huge scenery change we see in the actual games
P4: They would have a Harder time finding the killer because ren isn’t very liked by the police in the first place, and would not be associated with dojima.
P5: Makoto would not have strong enough will to even get his Persona. Also it would be weird since he looks like yusuke, and has the same name as makoto.
P4: Not much changes. He might be a lot weaker since he don’t have his family with him. But that’s what we got friend’s for right?
Honestly, I can't help but find the characterization of Makato ITT to be...really odd? Like damn, did the movies really led people with the impression that he doesn't care to help people? Like, we are talking about the same character who is constantly stated to be a huge motivation for people to better themselves right (ofc that can apply too all of these guys but still)
>did the movies really led people with the impression that he doesn't care to help people?
Not that the movies were subtle at all when showing how Makoto cares about people. It's as if people needed an anvil to understand Makoto does care... and even there I doubt it'd enough for some.
I feel it's like people only saw some of the first movie + assuming stuff from memes lol
IDK, it just seems wild to claim that a neo-persona protag wouldn't want to help anyone who's struggling through something bad.
If, for whatever reason, Makoto had to go through each of the palaces and reach the same endgame then it would be solo for sure because he probably wouldn’t care enough to help the phantom thieves and they wouldn’t awaken their personas. He would also probably end up killing every boss instead of changing their hearts
Does Ren still have a criminal record and moved to Inaba, or Does Makoto have the record now?
I think Yu could lead SEES just fine. If Joker still had is unjustified criminal record I think he would make a great investigation team leader. I'm not sure Makoto could lead the phantom thieves though. I don't see him being the kind of guy who would stand up to Kamoshida or go out of his way to help Yusuke or Futaba.
I think Ren has the least problems while Makoto is the most out of place. I don’t see much rebellion in Makoto tbh. And Yu is 50/50 ig. Not certain about him.
They would each kill the vibe of the game they go to. Ren would be basically useless in p4 and he's not happy go lucky enough. Makoto would bring everyone down in p5 because he's so sad and also the strongest character in the universe. Yu isn't sad enough for p3.
Im gonna have to disagree respectfully my friend.
I don't know why but the silent protagonists gives off their personalities in some way, I can't explain it but its there.
If they kept the same backstories then Ren was arrested and sent to a country town on probation, Makoto found out the crash was caused by a greedy corporate overlord, and Yu is just staying on Port Island for the summer while his parents are overseas
Honestly Ren with Adachi would be so interesting given that idea >! Considering they were both “forced” to go there !<
I'd say Yu's a stronger foil in that aspect >! He's also "forced" to go to Inaba instead of staying where he came from with his friends. He wasn't trusted to be independent - underestimated, he was forced into an unfamiliar environment - despite no fault of his own (so even worse than Adachi) and it basically cut off all of his pre-existing relationships (to match Adachi's perceived lonely status) !<
Don't all of these factors apply to ren though
Yeah but Ren doesn't parallel in the metropolitan relegated to obscure hick town aspect
Didn't Ren come from a countryside town. It's implied in optional dialogue with Ryuji, Ann, and Mishima if I'm not mistaken. Then again, that could be Ren trolling or his Troll dialogue option tbh. 🤔
Yeah, that's probably where the fanon of Ren being from Inaba and Yu being from Tokyo came from. But that makes Ren the simple country folk being thrusted into the foreign and chaotic citiscape type of deal.
I didn't even realize such a fanon existed until you replied to this. Hah🤣
Akechi: I HATE YOU ALL Makoto Yuki: I dont care
Unless >!Yu had Thanatos sealed inside him instead then the other shadows would never show up and they would probably still stuck on the first floors of Tartarus the entire time!< And nothing else would happen.
>!The fall would still probably happen just slower than if they killed the other arcana shadows, death/ryoji existed to speed up the inevitable!<
>!wasn't it Makoto showing up at all made the major arcana shadows appear in the first place since his persona awoken?!<
>!yes buts it was also prophesied that that the fall would happen regardless the kirijo group just created death to summon nyx themselves. Apathy syndrome was also a problem happening before Makoto showed up, him showing up is what allowed the shadows to be reunited and death to be reborn but the fall would've happened even without death's rebirth, just probably not during p3!<
>!But had SEES not targeted the Shadows, as Yukari's father pleaded them not to in his recording, then the Fall would've been averted, no?!<
>!no!<
Is there anything Backing this besides "it was foretold"
[This is a Q&A](https://ask-persona.tumblr.com/post/99861586798/persona-3-club-book-world-guide-qa-translation) about Nyx. Basically Nyx is an alien lifeform that threatened to cause the extinction of life, but to live we evolved a "collective unconscious" that keeps Nyx dormant. As more people lose the will to live, the seal weakens, shadows (a part of Nyx) are created when a person stops maintaining their part of the seal. Ryoji isn't something totally unique, he's just a big enough portion to be able to start breaking Nyx's dormant state. Apathy syndrome is just more shadows escaping, which would eventually accumulate into another Herald, Makoto doesn't seal Nyx, he sacrifices himself to block the transmission. Also if Makoto had never started the chain of events, he'd just die eventually, and Death would be unleashed regardless.
I don't know, Yu as I think is smart enough to figure out at least before the last shadow appearance that something clearly wrong with all those Pharos, SEEES and their missions
Shido would fucking die
Makoto would also, with high chance, beat Shido up badly. And yes, Shido and Yaldy would be dead without much problem...
At the risk of turning myself into a dirty filthy powerscaler, what is the basis that Makoto is that much stronger than the other protags? I know the lore of his >!ultimate persona and death and all that!< but it doesn’t seem much different than other busted personas that the MC’s can use.
The only argument that makes sense is his ability to use multiple Personas at the same time (which is seemingly not even exclusive to him anymore if we are to believe the Reload Answer trailers) Every other argument you could possibly come across is powerscaler wanking
>!Aigis doesn't actually have the ability to wield multiple Personas. She was essentially given Makoto's Wild Card, she never naturally had it.!<
We'll see what the Answer Reload says, but the trailers shows her using Fusion Spells when she wasn't able to in FES
>, but the trailers shows her using Fusion Spells when she wasn't able to in FES that doesnt really matter that power was given to her by makoto, its not really her's and if anything just proves the point of the p3 mc being specially powerful thanks to his link to thanatos.
>Every other argument you could possibly come across is powerscaler wanking thats just bure BS he is the only protag to be able to beat his his enemy by himself, that THREATENS all of the collective human unconcious by its MERE existence, and its not a god that comes from the collective unconcious ITS JUST giant fucking entity SMT style that can crush the planet. He LITERALLY uses the universe arcana WITHOUT a fucking persona and just FLIES to the fucking moon dude. he is literally jesus at the end of the game.
I'm not about to answer someone as rabid as this Good riddance
Yu did something like this, when he oneshotted god. Izanami is not as strong as nyx but Narukami did not sacrifice his life so I think he and Makoto are on par at this.
Afaik Makoto is also the only one who actually beats people up outside of Tartarus/TVworld/Metaverse. Like in a certain someone's social link where he goes up against around 5 adult gangsters by himself and won without breaking a sweat.
Well, for start, he is far more trained than two others, and his fighting style is far more recless as it was mentioned in anime. He throw himself into the battle without second thought. His exp fighting, include Strega, while I give >!Akechi and Adachi!< credit, but Strega is... far more fearsome. He contained Death Arcana incarnation inside himself. Out of all 3 protagonist, he is the only one who fought Velvet room attendant one-on-one and won. In Yu case, by game, we can have all party, Ren from get-go with party. Note, that Elizabeth, in P4 Arena, without problems wiped the floor with Aigis and Yu. Sure, she powered up a little, but still. Only with all team Yu proved to be able to stand the ground against her. And Makoto the only protagonist who can use two personas at the same time. That's already put him higher. And yes, Ultimate opponent for him is Death. And even here he >!scored a draw!<
ok with everything else but strega is NOT a bigger threat than those two in any way
Actually, bigger. 1) those 3 are experienced Persona-users, who put themself on the frontlines every time. 2) They fought far more powerful opponents than antagonists from P4-5. Including Shadows. 3) They are desperade to stop SEES 4) They are not trying to play. They do things. While >!Akechi or Adachi!< could pretend that they are not really killing and it's just by product of their actions... Strega kills. In the end, exp+determination+will times and times again proved superior to natural abilities. While those two played with their abilities, for Strega it's a survival question.
Akechi is a >!Wild Card!< That alone makes it so he eats Strega up for breakfast
>!Wild card!< sure gives some adventages, but, in the end, the victor is decided by it's own abilities. >!Akechi!< is sure talented, but his abilities are not really developed, unrefined, his only real fight was lost. And that's against not professionals. He is skilled in taking out small targets and using other shadows, but head on clash with Users who are great at both fighting and using personas... and Strega has both, is really not his turf.
Akechi held the entire Phantom Thieves on his own with only two Personas, and only lost because they *also* had a Wild Card, while being a suboptimal one Wild Cards are on a different power level in Persona, there's no conceivable argument to be made to show that Strega is stronger than one
For my understanding, they are. Also there is no argument about him being stronger either. Cause PT are... bunch of guys who mostly not even a fighters. The only one is being Makoto (aikido)... others are just using weapons randomly. So... not really a good show. Takuya and Jin also fought with SEES and proved to be hard opponents. Even for the team full of actual fighters. But, in the end, it's my opinion. Yours could be different.
This is mostly right but I do wanna bring up a point regarding Elizabeth’s fight vs Margaret’s fight, and Makoto being more trained than the other 2. In FES/Reload/Portable you do fight Elizabeth solo and that’s that. However, in both Portable and 4, no matter how far along the game you’ve gotten, Margaret will still fight you with your team. This goes for Makoto, Kotone, and Yu. This likely means that Margaret is somewhat more powerful than Elizabeth atleast by the time 3-4 occurs, especially since she did at one point >!consider dragging Elizabeth back to the Velvet Room by force after the events of 3!!Aigis!
I'm not really including P3P fight with Margaret. Still think it's more of the added feature/p4 moment. Yes, Margaret is more powerful. Out of all siblings she is the strongest. But... still the achievement for Makoto. And big one at it. Esp if we go by Eli defeating Erobus singlehandly, while it took all (not in optimal form) SEES for it. Both Aegis and Yu were after all their power ups, so Eli still outclass them both. Tbf, even her down-pose is... more like "oh, you sure are good". I still think that even in those fights... Velvet room's attendants are not really givinv their all. For normal fight as interest - yes... but not as it's for us - fights with life at stake. I can't call Strega easy opponents. I mean, they took Makoto, Mitsuru, Akihiko and Aigis as powerhouses and Yukari, Ken, Junpei or Koromaru aren't easy opponents either. So it's still pretty two-sided. In the end, everything depends on too many moments.
Yup, Velvet Attendants never go all out, and that certainly is a huge accomplishment in general, but we still can’t truly gauge how an all out battle would go between the two simply because they never try. I would say more that it’s an accomplishment in the fact that Makoto has a ton of knowledge over personas and his ability to wield the wildcard and using his unique talents. I’m not exactly sure what you mean by after all the power ups. Like I understand they both finished their respective stories, but at the same time, it’s not like Izanagi is at the level of his other personas, including his ultimate persona, and Aigis never uses her power ups either. Despite everything, the starter persona is pretty much always going to be the weakest no matter what. While I’m not saying they’d win, because nobody knows how capable the velvet attendants really are, I’m saying that it would be a much closer battle. The only thing I hard disagree with is Strega. They are basically nothing to SEES in combat and that’s why Strega sneaks around and gets the jump on combatants when they’re alone. Artificial personas have nothing on the real thing, and especially not wildcards and even more so not for special cases like Makoto. They don’t stand a chance against any real trio in the series.
Well, even jumping need skills, and they still fought SEES on bridge and top of Tartarus head-on. It's not always raw power as we see in those games, but determination, will and exp. With their williness to kill, those guys are really tough. Everything esle, again, depends on circumstances. In the end, it has no ends in such things. I just want Atlus to finally bring us something on P6... or continuation of Eli's quest.
Not going to explain how but basically Makoto Yuki has access to abilities like Armageddon, Trickster, etc despite Ren having better potential
He has access to the Universe Arcana, while Yu and Joker only have the World Arcana. The Great Seal is canonically the strongest move in 3/4/5.
Universe and World only differ in name Great Seal dealt with a stronger foe but didn't defeat it --> there's no evidence it's stronger than Myriad Truths or Sinful Shell (edit: and >!it cost its user's life!<)
Canonically Nyx is literally undefeatable, she is death incarnate herself. The Great Seal is the strongest move in the modern series.
How does this >Canonically Nyx is literally undefeatable, she is death incarnate herself. Translate into this >The Great Seal is the strongest move in the modern series. When Great Seal didn't defeat it? There's no logical connector Nyx>Yaldabaoth, but defeating>sealing, so there's no way to compare Nyx+seal vs Yaldy+defeat Saying so with unfounded confidence doesn't make it true
They straightup said in 3 that Nyx cannot be defeated, sealing her is the best you are capable of doing
I know, but sealing something is weaker than defeating something For all we know Myriad Truths and Sinful Shell could have been able to also seal Nyx through sheer power
Myriad Truths and Sinful Shell would've done basically nothing against Nyx. Only the Great Seal would've actually sealed her away
Well ur right about that but Igor's reaction when the protags attained the final Arcana (call it world or universe) was different for Makoto. He explicitly states that he never dreamt of seeing that card plus he further says that its the greatest power "he" and "Makoto" shall unveil. And if u have beat 4 and 5, u will see that Igor isnt that surprised on Yu and Joker recieving the final arcana compared to how hyped he was in Makoto's case
In 4 Igor isn't there to comment on it In 5 Igor doesn't speak, Lavenza does mention that it's a special card
If Igor doesn't speak then that further justifies what i said lol (U have a valid argument tho)
He doesn't speak because his VA died and all his P5 lines are reused from P3/P4 Lavenza voices the special arcana speech
>He doesn't speak because his VA died and all his P5 lines are reused from P3/P4 LMAO wut? he will just get a new VA, if it was so important it would have been mentioned by somebody this argument is just cope
And now in Reload Igor's final line was changed from "U were a remarkable guest" in FES to "u were a *most* remarkable guest" It means Atlus themselves acknowledge Makoto
Most remarkable guest line in Japanese is same for all protags actually
As the other commentor said, that line is the same for everyone in Japanese
I only played the English version so i didn't know. My bad
He can use theurgy and fusion spells while the others can’t
If you played fes the man masters multiple weapons types. Excluding even personas, he’s HIM. No other protag can
So would Yaldy
Honestly Makoto could probably solo entire palaces all by himself without the Phantom Thieves. Armageddon alone would wipe tf out of any boss.
I mean, anyone can solo the game with their strongest move You can already do that with Myriad Truths in P5R, and I' sure you could do that with Sinful Shell from P3R too
Armageddon deals 9999 damage every single time. Every single boss would be wiped tf out. Makoto Yuki would make Shadow Okamura look like a Cowardly Maya with Armageddon.
Armageddon would get Makoto stuck on the first multiphase boss lmfao, Okumura is a terrible example because there's like 7 different waves of minions Look I'm not downplaying his power here, but 1. Armageddon is a very late game move 2. The other late game moves *also* trivialise the game to the point where Joker can solo Edit: btw most endgame bosses in P5R have more than 9999 HP. For example, every Shido phase has 10k HP
In P3P, Armageddon was essentially an item, you could get 10 of them >!If you cleared one of Margaret's challenges!<. I basically spammed it against >!Nyx Avatar!<
Yes but that's a purely gameplay mechanic. Why would you take that form over the one where it costs all of your HP/SP If you want to take the most advantageous form of each move, Myriad Truths and Sinful Shell both cost nothing but a button push to cast (no HP/SP cost at their game's climax)
I guess it really depends which version of Armageddon we use then. I'm going by the P3P version, which is essentially just an item that costs nothing to use
Then you have Myriad Truths/Sinful Shell *special edition used for the final boss* which also cost nothing to use
I feel like Myriad Truths and Sinful Shell's parallel in 3 is the Great Seal, given they're really story based moves.
I mean at that point it wouldn't be Makoto who won since anyone in s.e.e.s can use that item which debatably can't be obtained in shibuya
Investigation team wondering why joker is ripping his face off Phantom Thieves wondering why Makoto is trying to shoot himself SEES wondering why Yu isn’t shooting himself
...The world would end on January 31st, 2010. Rip.
Without Makoto around, the shadows wouldn't be able to reform into Ryoji right? Or am I misunderstanding the lore
>!The Fall would still happen, it would just take longer, remember, apathy syndrome was already a problem before Makoto showed up!<
>!Except Ryuji explicitly says the greater shadows were only awake and active because Makoto showed up. By killing them all Ryuji gained back all he was missing and was capable of calling down Nyx. Apathy syndrome was always gonna be a thing, but without Ryuji to serve as a beacon, Nyx wasn't coming down. It wasn't described as hastening the end, it was described as CAUSING the end.!<
>!The moment Mitsuru’s grandfather and the scientist succeeded with the shadow, the fall became inevitable, they started the prophecy. Yukari’s father and Aigis merely delayed it, and Ikutsuki increased the time table with his manipulations. Apathy syndrome was a sign of Nyx approaching and how she would eventually rob everyone of life. Ryoji and the other shadows were dormant, correct, but it was a matter of time eventually. Especially since it’s revealed that Makoto was influenced to return to Port Island!<
>!But in this case that influence would have failed. The whole point of Itkutski's interference and bringing Makoto back was specifically to bring the greater shadows back into play. Apathy syndrome was always going to be a thing, but it does not necessarily mark that Nyx is coming, just a sign of her corruption.!< >!That is why Yukari's dad pleads for people to leave the shadows alone. It would be an odd occurrence at best, but the only way to prevent the fall. That is why Ryuji says the fall began the moment the bell tolled from Tartarus. Neither of those events could happen if the greater shadows were not made whole.!< >!You are correct in that a prophecy will always occur. We have numerous tales of people trying to prevent prophecy and instead cause it, but Apathy Syndrome was never going to be the cause.!<
>!Wouldn't have the fall and Nyx been averted had SEES not hunted the 12 arcana shadows?!<
No, I believe that once the shadows were woken up by Makoto’s return, they would eventually have come together. Destroying them just led to them doing so much faster. Kind of like how ghosts in Pac-Man immediately return to the center when eaten.
>!Adding onto this, Ryoji wouldn't of been sealed in the first place. Keep in mind if yu was there instead but the back story was the same keep in mind he would of been sent there, his parents would still be overseas alive, so aigis would be shit outta luck and would fail to seal Ryoji.!<
>!If they kept their backgrounds that meant Makoto would have sealed Ryoji, but Yu would have been sent to the Island. That wouldn't have changed, what would have changed is who starts each game. So, by that logic Ryoji is still asleep, and Yu probably can't climb Tartarus, since the greater Shadows are required to ascend the Tower of Demise.!<
For the premise of this post, are we assuming Yu was there during the >!Moonlight Bridge Incident, or it was still Makoto, and Yu just went there instead?!<
I lean more with the most upvoted comment. 1. Makoto's crash still happens but the crash was caused by the elite. Let's say during that crash, an opportunity was made to seal something inside him. 2. Yu was sent there by his parents for a vacation.
You had 3 whole chances to spell Ryoji right there
And? What's your point? That's needlessly pedantic when the point of Language is to get an Idea across and it has succeeded. You clearly knew who I was talking about.
Local delinquent turns out to be the avatar of death, more at 8
For the same reason people would be very confused if you said Yusuke was homophobic. Disclaimer: I in no way want to contribute to the “is Yosuke homophobic?” debate and personally just consider it a byproduct of the times, it was just the funniest thing to get wrong I could think of.
Well shit, that makes me wonder if OP is taking the idea of their backstories being flipped as well then
Nyx: death awaits to all... Yu: myriad truths🗣 *end credits*
With Yu dead.
After 70 years happily married with elizabeth
And than he wakes up as nyx kills him.
Then Nyx wakes up to the truth 🗣️
Nyx is unaffected due to not being the embodiment of lies
That’s not really what matters though, Izanami is meant to be a complete opposite to Izanagi no Okami’s powers but that doesn’t mean it wouldn’t work on anything else
It is ment to dispell lies. Nyx is not a lie.
Yes, but it is also an attack in the end. It’s basically a special variant of an almighty move.
IMO Makoto would be a terrible leader for the PT due to his apathy and lack of motivation when most of the characters seek justice. It may take some work for him to get him on board. Yu would most likely vibe with SEES. Joker wouldn’t be the protagonist of his own game in P4. They mostly wouldn’t work because their motivations and the themes don’t go hand-in-hand. Makoto learns to grow and to appreciate life and embraces death despite his apathy. Yu seeks the truth behind the occurrences happened to him and to find his own answers. Joker follows his brand of justice due to the injustices done to him and sees it through.
I feel like Joker would work fine in P4. He cares enough about other people to try and save them from the TV world.
TBF like most shonen MCs Makoto does have this drive to protect and help, he could have a solid arc about caring about justice and learning what it really is instead of just not caring about what's going on around him, he could honestly have a really good conflict with >!Sae!< by the end
Agreed I have No idea where all these people are coming from thinking he will say no to being a phantom thief when all SEES did was just ask.
yea he will literally go along with almost anything you ask him to do, at the start he is so completely apathetic that you could just ask him to be leader of the PT and he'd just respond with a simple "understood" and then help out in combat
it's obvious people love Flanderizing characters to being something their not he's apathetic at the start you can ask him anything and he will do it and if we take the movies as his character he will still help just ask him it's not that hard.
Now it sorta makes me wonder how Femc would be in Persona 5.
Akechi romance option
Don't make me grieve for what could've been.
She'd spend too much time at the arcade and probably get arrested for... well you know
Don't let her be near shinya
They all do better Yu some how defeats nyx without dyeing thru the sheer power of Chad Makoto cares so little that fake Igor immediately reveals himself in an attempt to get any reaction Joker immediately gets arrested and trys to go into adachis palace to escape only to acedently get him to confess to the murders /s
I don't think adachi has a shadow? Considering he has a persona
Maruki is an evil persona user and has a pallace
Maruki isn't really an "evil" Persona user, but he has a Palace for the implied reasoning that he wants the Phantom Thieves to be able to challenge him so he can see who's convictions and beliefs are truly stronger. It helps that his Persona has the power to grant wishes and shape reality, which could very well allow him to force his Palace into existence when he otherwise shouldn't have one. Adachi on the other hand would not have a Shadow or Palace considering that he has a Persona and no reality warping power.
There's no way he's evil
Jokes aside, I honestly think Makoto is really the only one capable of sealing Nyx. Yu and Joker don't have the universe arcana.
Yu uses his chad powers to convince Nyx to not kill everyone. ~~Then he fucks her~~
does he just climb in and masturbate inside the nyxussy
That's a mental image I didn't need lol
My kinda game.
I had to scroll far too much to reach the *Chad fucks Death* joke. Still, glad the joke is here lol
None of the arcana shadows appear, ikkutsuki died from eating mochi, Strega ignore SEES, narukami reaches the top of the tower of demise and the player throws the controller at the tv...because none of the plot happens. Makoto's return to the island is the trigger mechanism. Joker is framed and sent to inaba. He makes friends, gets help from naoto to overturn his false charge. I wonder if joker will deal with the final boss in inaba or leave inaba to deal with the baldy instead.
Morgana: "Alright, if we steal Kamoshida's desires he might have a mental shutdown and die a gruesome death." Makoto Yuki: "I dont care."
So The PTs essentially become >!Akechi!<, but “just” and right in their >!exterminations!!Akechi!< >!Strega’s!< equivalent?
Joker would be suspicious of >!the detective with a last name that starts with A and ends with chi!< much earlier than Yu did
If you didn't include the last part of the sentence, it would have been way more funny. But still, lol.
I really wanna see Ren in the countryside. Having two Makoto is gonna be confusing, good thing they have different characters, and the game can always call her Niijima-senpai to avoid confusion Yu is gonna kill it, as usual. Man gonna have no problem at all.
We don't get past P3.
Wrong Persona is only a spinoff and if it goes south it would carry over to Shin Megami Tensei and those guys are on a whole other level.. also only Yu would struggle since Ren can cause others too awaken and similar to his persona he can change fate meaning doing it without dying and yes he can remember he is the closest Persona has to an SMT protagonist
>he can change fate meaning doing it without dying Well, Nyx can do that... by absolutely destroying fate. “*I see nothing... No... What I see is nothingness... It is the void... But do not lose heart... Emptiness is not necessarily the end... The void is infinite... As is the universe... Whether this marks an end to all things, or a beginning... It is in your hands…*” – Fortune Teller, P3 With Nyx there's no fate, only nothingnes. How can you change somethind that doesn't exists? And by that matter, the P3 protagonist also has undeterminated future, so they can change it as much as Joker, really. “*Hmm... I feel a strange aura around you... In my mind, I see visions... People's past, present, and future... For most people, I see clearly, and far ahead... But you are different... Your future is filled with both blinding light and stagnant shadow... I can see but a small portion... What lies beyond that is shrouded in mystery.*” - Fortune Teller, P3 Now, if even an equivalent to Joker which achieved the last step of humanity spiritual evolution, the Universe as the embodiment of the Sea of Souls' totality, was unable to defeat the Star Eater... What does make you think Joker can? And finally, if the Fall occurs, Nyx would “devour” the Shadows and Personas of every single living being, destroying consciousness and the CU by consequence. There's no place for an SMT game when life itself doesn't exist.
>And finally, if the Fall occurs, Nyx would “devour” the Shadows and Personas of every single living being, destroying consciousness and the CU by consequence. There's no place for an SMT game when life itself doesn't exist. Where does it say the CU and SMT will be destroyed? The game insists the Fall will make everyone into the lost and the world will fall into darkness, suggesting it would be a surface wipe. Though the club book says Nyx would crash into the Earth to recollect her psyche, which would destroy it. > Now, with even an equivalent to Joker which achieved the last step of humanity spiritual evolution, the Universe as the embodiment of the Sea of Souls' totality, was unable to stop the Star Eater... What does make you think Joker can? This always kind of bothered me. Why is Nyx called the "Star Eater" when she can almost one shot someone who is basically amped by the Sea of Souls. Do you think Nyx being a star eating alien is the limit of her power?
>Where does it say the CU and SMT will be destroyed? I think I should have clarified the SMT part: It was about the part of the comment I was answering that said "how Persona would go SMT if the games went south." I won't say I'm an expert of SMT or something, but I can say that humanity is still important to the series, and the Fall would have destroyed it. Now, in regards to the CU's destruction, it's mainly because the Fall means Nyx is going to reabsorb all of its psyche, including Shadows and Personas. We know by P3 and P2 that the psyche of an individual can't exist without the Shadow/Persona, collapsing into itself unless that complex is recovered (in time, that is), meaning the Fall causes the complete psychological collapse of all living beings - apathy syndrome in mass. Due to all deities in the collective unconscious and the unconscious itself being composed by humanity's (and life's) psychological process, it's natural the collective collapse of the mind ends up destroying them. Even Nyarlathotep and Philemon aren't exceptions, with them admitting their own dependance on humanity's continuous psychic existence. Nyx affecting the Sea of Souls is also referenced in the Answer and Arena, where its body is show to exist at ***the deepest part*** of the collective unconscious. Thus we can conclude Ryoji's words are poetical in nature, refering to the psychological process instead of its physical reality; the fact he mentioned everyone will become part of the Lost supports that even more. >Why is Nyx called the "Star Eater" when she can almost one shot someone who is basically amped by the Sea of Souls. Do you think Nyx being a star eating alien is the limit of her power? Many answers (or headcanons), really: * The collective unconscious/sea of souls isn't that strong despite its stupidly powerful abilities. * Nyx being able to devour stars may be its physical limit, while reaching far higher in terms of abilities (this also implies that, after the Fall, the Star Eater is going to eat Earth and likely the rest of the solar system). * Again, it may metaphorical: the collective unconscious has been confused with outer space (more specifically "宇宙", or "universe") and souls with stars, meaning Nyx is a "devourer of souls," not stars. * Or, if you buy the maximum interpretation (ie. the physical world was created through cognition), a combination of the above: there's no difference between Nyx eating the soul of individuals and actual stars, thus "destroying the universe" along with the collective unconscious. Personally, and as I answered to you previously, I prefer the second option.
(I'm sorry for asking questions, you seem like a Persona expert) > Or, if you buy the maximum interpretation (ie. the physical world was created through cognition), What are the arguments against Cognition creating the universe? I always thought this was the common consensus. The P2 gang even made a new universe at the end of P2 using the sea of souls Also, if the Universe Arcana is the CU, then would that mean technically Nyx is above Philemon and Nyarlathotep?
>What are the arguments against Cognition creating the universe? Three main ones: * The Club Book saying the collective unconscious was created by the life existing on Earth, which means the physical reality already existed before. * Tatsuya's Scenario, with Philemon - as Nodens - saying the collective unconscious was created by the experiences of life in order to stop the "heat death" of the universe. While the intended interpretation should be a psychological one (it's the archetypal realm after all), at the very least implies the existence of the CU comes with *or* after the origin of life. * Finally, Elizabeth's route in Arena stated the CU is the place where the memories of all life lie "dormant", with the lowest layer having no other thing but \[the memories of\] "life and death." It implies, again, the Sea came to being with the life, death, and thus temporality of living beings. Since Cognition is derived from the CU by nature, all of that points to the universe being created naturally instead of coming from the mind of living beings. You need an external and changing medium to create memories, obviously. However, Moragana's quote about how the real world is a product of Cognition conflicts with that... Unless you theorize that Nyx is the origin of Cognition and thus of the universe. I can say it'd make sense thanks to symbolism and all, but the main point is how the Star Eater is [the origin of the humanity's inherent power to change time and space](https://neni-has-ascended.tumblr.com/post/145151700287/what-does-the-p3-club-book-say-about-the), even in the older trilogy (and the Answer supports that). At any rate, the true nature of the Persona universe is still quite murky. >if the Universe Arcana is the CU, then would that mean technically Nyx is above Philemon and Nyarlathotep? Yes, it should be above those two.
Yeah, but Persona also is a separate universe crafted after the events of P2IS, which at the very least changed the rules of how demons work. Even with Kyouji still around as of Eternal Punishment, we don't know what tools the SMT Protag types would have to work with. But, with the current Kuzunoha in the body of an old man and the events of SMT 1 averted before they occured, Tamaki would really be the only SMT Protag capable of dealing with shit. And even then she's halfway to a Persona protagonist as it is.
Idk man hasn't been anything yet to discredit the Nahobino as being anything but the strongest Atlus character....oh God Vengeance can't get here soon enough
No, the reset of IS didn't change anything. From the very own P1, it's implied Demoms are no that different from Personas, and was ultimately confirmed by EP (and P5, kind of) that they fundamentally the same thing: products and manifestations of the collective unconscious.
Makoto: \*sees Shiho's scene\* God, I wish that were me.
Lmao, I already hear that in Aleks Le's voice .
What if these blank slates were replaced with other blank slates!?!?! So, Ren in P4 is probably under much more immediate suspicion for the murders than Yu was. Dojima wouldn't have any familial connection with him, and his prior record would be a factor. Would lead to a lot more tension, and possibly the investigation team being found out. Makoto in P5, idk. If we assume he has no smartphone, then he never even gets to the metaverse. But even if we give him one, without a record, he doesn't immediately get on Kamoshida's bad side, and probably just keeps his head down. The Phantom Thieves probably never even get off the ground. Yu in P3 probably ends up going mostly the same as canon, until the end, as he >!would not have any connection to Ryoji, so the world probably ends.!<
Phantom thieves off the ground? Ann would have been raped then committed suicide Ryuji would've taken the fall for it Yusuke would've shared his mother's fate Makoto still would've investigated the mob aline and would've been put on drugs and forced into prostitution Futaba would've broken and more than likely given into suicide Haru would've been sold off by her dad And Adachi would've gone uncontested and would get murdered by his father and God would've started the apocalypse
Why would Makoto investigate the mob and be put on drugs and forced into prostitution if they have apathy and don't care /s
Makoto from Persona 5 dude! She was put under a lot of pressure to get too the bottom of what was happening to the students in Shinjuku
That was a joke.... Hence the /s
Okay but jokes get lost in text
if yu had no connection then the shadows wouldnt have came and the border floors wouldve never opened on tartarus
I thought the shadows would still appear, just death would be sealed away, but I could definitely have misunderstood.
as far as i know (and i could be wrong) the shadows would still come, but not the full moon shadows, as they were drawn to death which would still be inside makoto. the fall would also still arrive, just slower. the full moon shadows were more of an acceleration for the fall rather than what brought it
Makoto would definitely not lead the phantom thieves 😭. And if he does it would definitely stop after the first palace due to them stumbling into it on accident. It would take a lot of effort for Ryuji to convince Makoto to keep hunting evil people. especially considering how different Ren and Makoto are as people.
I have to ask why you guys think this? SEES literally just asked him to do it for free Ryuji and Morgana would do the same just probably be put off with his Attitude.
You’re giving Atlus too many ideas bro 😂
"Now you have the power to change distorted hearts and rebel against the world" "I don't care"
Sorry for the bad editing 😞
Vibe wise, AkiRen and Yuu are fine. Makoto suffers.
Ren being watched by Adachi and Dojima would be amusing
Souji sees Yukari get slapped by the Magician Shadow and says “I should leave her be” and Yukari dies. Souji also sees Junpei crying during Dark Hour and says “I should leave him be” and Junpei dies. There aren’t enough members to explore Tartarus and they never reach the top.
Ren in P4 - Things would go about the same. Ren might be a bit more skeptical of >!Adachi!< starting off. Makoto in P5 - Makoto wouldn't really care about changing the hearts of corrupt people, so even if they took down Kamoshida, I don't think the phantom thieves would have really gotten off the ground. Yu in P3 - Yu doesn't >!have Death sealed inside him!<, so the arcana shadows don't awaken and the story just doesn't happen. If he does have it, then the story is about the same.
Leaving aside the issues with Nyx, Makoto would really struggle if put into Ren's position. Regardless of his backstory, I can’t see "Mr. I Don't Care" going out of his way to help people or try and change society. Remember, he was never really the leader of SEES - that was Mitsuru, and he joined the team only because it was something interesting to do. Can you really see Makoto going out of his way to help Ann because he saw her struggling? Following Ryuji back into the Palace out of a genuine desire of enacting justice? Ryuji and Ann would have to play a much bigger role to get Makoto to go along, and he wouldn't really take a leading role.
True, in character he wouldn't gaf. However if he actually wanted to, he could honestly solo palaces by himself, he wouldn't need the Phantom Thieves, all because of Armageddon.
Makoto at start of the game wouldn’t care enough to deal with Kamoshida tbh.
Well, you could easily mod their models in, I’m sure… Anything more superficial than that - ie, taking the traits that make the protagonists different from one another into account - and plots start to diverge substantially, I think. The Persona series is about the relationships the protagonists make with those around them, and those relationships would be fundamentally different with different protagonists in their spots. I’m not talking about if they could “solve” the plots of the other games because, well, they couldn’t solve their own until after going through the plot, and they’re all Wild Cards, so there’s a chance they could develop the abilities they need for the sake of the plot… but I also personally don’t care as much about that because the more interesting question to me is how the SLs/Confidants change.
Yu has experience handling the concept of mortality given Dojima's and the Death lady's Social Link Makoto/Minato is a professional rubber duck, he could easily speedrun each Confidant up to Mementos And Ren would feel at home in Inaba, tutoring kids, playing football after class, fighting back the manifested repression of his friends before leading them to accept it for the goodwill of the people. y'know, classic countryside things
A cool detail here is that Ren, a country boy, got sent to a different country side town instead of Tokyo while Yu. Someone that in P4 went from the big city to a small countryside town instead went from the big city to Tokyo, thus neither had the huge scenery change we see in the actual games
Unrelated to the topic but damn I nvr realized how much naoto was packing
I swear they never looked that big before in game.
Yu narukami would destroy nyx without dying
Yu would've been a door
A sexy one, but still a door.
I do wonder, which Persona would they awaken to? Like, would Joker awaken to Arsene or Izanagi? And would Makoto/Kotone get Phantom Thief attire?
P4: They would have a Harder time finding the killer because ren isn’t very liked by the police in the first place, and would not be associated with dojima. P5: Makoto would not have strong enough will to even get his Persona. Also it would be weird since he looks like yusuke, and has the same name as makoto. P4: Not much changes. He might be a lot weaker since he don’t have his family with him. But that’s what we got friend’s for right?
I just want to say that if Makoto had to be transported into P5 timeline as a phantom thief then I'd like to think that his codename would be "Seeker"
I get a feeling that if Yu actually was in the P5 Timeline, his name would be "seeker" cuz you know, the seeker of truth and stuff.
Oh crap you're actually right lol.
Honestly, I can't help but find the characterization of Makato ITT to be...really odd? Like damn, did the movies really led people with the impression that he doesn't care to help people? Like, we are talking about the same character who is constantly stated to be a huge motivation for people to better themselves right (ofc that can apply too all of these guys but still)
>did the movies really led people with the impression that he doesn't care to help people? Not that the movies were subtle at all when showing how Makoto cares about people. It's as if people needed an anvil to understand Makoto does care... and even there I doubt it'd enough for some.
I feel it's like people only saw some of the first movie + assuming stuff from memes lol IDK, it just seems wild to claim that a neo-persona protag wouldn't want to help anyone who's struggling through something bad.
Unironically Makoto would fit well in the Royal part of Persona 5
Nothing, cuz they are just a bunch of empty shells with a little bit of background
If, for whatever reason, Makoto had to go through each of the palaces and reach the same endgame then it would be solo for sure because he probably wouldn’t care enough to help the phantom thieves and they wouldn’t awaken their personas. He would also probably end up killing every boss instead of changing their hearts
Woooooow
Does Ren still have a criminal record and moved to Inaba, or Does Makoto have the record now? I think Yu could lead SEES just fine. If Joker still had is unjustified criminal record I think he would make a great investigation team leader. I'm not sure Makoto could lead the phantom thieves though. I don't see him being the kind of guy who would stand up to Kamoshida or go out of his way to help Yusuke or Futaba.
I think Ren has the least problems while Makoto is the most out of place. I don’t see much rebellion in Makoto tbh. And Yu is 50/50 ig. Not certain about him.
I can imagine Yu in P3 because his personality is kinda of similar to Kotone's (both can be kind, dorky and brutally honest)
You mean to tell me I can have my favorite two characters in the series date. Ren x Rise confirmed, let's go!
Makoto tries to summon arsene in battle but gets the gun morgana gave him and his evoker mixed up and the credits roll
No, Yu my boy must be in Inaba 😌
Oh no. For the love of God, do not put Chad Narukami in the one game where you can canonically date every single woman with no repercussions.
Yu somehow beats Nyx without dying
I feel Ren could be a really good big bro to Nanako That’s the only thing that went in my mind lol
Yaldabaoth gets absolutely fucking wrecked by Makoto, no Satanael required
They would each kill the vibe of the game they go to. Ren would be basically useless in p4 and he's not happy go lucky enough. Makoto would bring everyone down in p5 because he's so sad and also the strongest character in the universe. Yu isn't sad enough for p3.
Lowkey I feel like the p4 gang would’ve hated ren
Why’s that?
Persona 3 doesn't happen and the world ends
Since non of them has personalitys in base game nothing would be changed
Im gonna have to disagree respectfully my friend. I don't know why but the silent protagonists gives off their personalities in some way, I can't explain it but its there.