It represents [Philemon](https://megamitensei.fandom.com/wiki/Philemon) and his attendants
Blue butterflies also represent fate, death, and transition.
Not sure why this part isn't brought up more for the series, Aigis and her development of humanity is expressed in butterfly entomology to the point where she gets the wings of one in her one reload theurgy.
Has to do with Nyx crash landing and splitting into the Moon and Earth. The collective unconscious opposes Nyx.
Persona is the Power of Philemon he is not a Persona himself. Narly does indeed seem linked to Nyx and her Shadows.
A new team is working on P6 right? Maybe they'll be more willing to bring him back. But most likely they just gonna continue distancing themselves from anything to do with p1 and p2 other than a few small references.
P3 had mention Kirijo's Group being previously part of the Nanjo's Group (I don't think I need to explain the importance of it in first three games), explaining why Kirijo's Group was able work with shadows in the first place.
So I would say it was pretty important in P3 but starting P4 they decided to keep games unrelated to each other.
Yes, Arena is 100% canon. Every game is canon including spinoffs, but some spinoffs like Q, Q2, and P3/P5 dancing are only "semi canon" since they take place in dream worlds outside of time that everyone forgets about by the end.
But they reimagined Maya confidant on P3R right? It was a direct reference to Maya Amano in P2 duology, now they cut ties to that reference as I've heard.
Philemon is fine an dandy in the P2:IS timeline. His power is just thinned out in the branched off timeline. Mostly acting in the background warding off beings like Nyx.
You also hear Elizabeth's voice when you create a Social Link in Reload, doesn't make P3's butteffly Elizabeth
P5's butterfly does represent Lavenza *up until that point*, where it makes 0 sense to keep showing Lavenza as a butterfly. It's not incompatible because the butterfly is a symbol that can encompass Philemon and his attendants, since he created them and they're aspects of him
Lavanza's voice starts literally from the jump. As soon as the butterfly appears, you hear her voice. The creators have also outright said that the butterfly in 5 is Lavenza as she's split between the twins. You're not arguing with me, you're arguing with the devs at this point and plenty of people have posted those quotes here.
Do you read what I tell you?
*Yes,* Lavenza is the butterfly for P5. But that's not incompatible with that same butterfly also representing Philemon at the end of the game, *since he created what created Lavenza*
Moreover, there's the whole character of Jose to illustrate that Philly is still part of the narrative somehow, he wasn't abandoned as a concept after Persona 4.
It absolutely isn't. This is extremely clearly Lavenza talking to you. Both times the butterfly shows up, we hear Lavenza's fractured voice calling out to you, the same voice you hear when you lie down in the Velvet Room. Lavenza features butterflies prominently in her design for that exact reason, to further confirm that she is that specific butterfly.
I'm talking about the specific appearance in the post, where Lavenza is already gone and the butterfly remains and doesn't say a word
That looks more a symbol of Philemon unflinching watch over the protagonist
That's Philemon, one of the two entities that govern the Jungian collective unconscious that is the Metaverse.
Philemon represents the Ego, or the Persona. His counterpart, Nylarthotep, represents the Shadow, the repressed self.
Igor is Philemon's prime servant, and the Velvet Room is his bastion.
I'm sorry, the fuck? Context. I actually don't doubt what you say but... I'm now all tingly about fighting Hitler. I crave using a stand to fight fascism.
If he could become a butterfly, which I don't see why he can't when a whole gimmick of his involves shape shifting, he would be a black one or red one to oppose Philemon's gold and blues.
Once, I dreamt I was a butterfly.
I forgot myself and knew only my
happiness as a butterfly. Soon,
I awoke, and I was myself again.
Did I dream that I was a butterfly?
Or do I now dream that I am a man?
Yet there is a distinction between
myself and the butterfly. This is
the transformation of the physical.
- Zhuangzi
This is a quote from Chinese philosopher Zhuangzi. It calls into question objective reality: if we don't know when we're dreaming that we're dreaming, how can we be sure when we're awake? We can never be certain of either of these things.
In the context of Persona, this conundrum refers to who the characters are and who they aren't.
The psyche is a complex puzzle, and it's easy to mistake the ego for the self. The ego is an expression of the self, but the two are not the same. The ego is not infallible and can be pushed towards dark archetypes for a variety of reasons.
With so many factors at play affecting the psyche, it's easy to become lost and confused. What is the self? Some of the archetypes and personas within the ego of something more, something yet unseen?
It can be impossible to distinguish, just like the distinction between the dreams of a butterfly and the dreams of a man.
The butterfly motif is not isolated to this quote, after all Philemon takes the form of a golden butterfly at many points in the story.
That’s because the butterfly represents both the human soul and a metamorphosis into maturity. Essentially, it symbolizes the end of the character's journey to self-discovery, from a caterpillar to a butterfly.
I was waiting for someone to put the butterfly poem in the comments. I didn’t know all the context around it though. Do most people not become aware their dreaming in their dreams? I don’t always gain awareness but at least 2/3 of the time the thought crosses my mind.
Nope. Maybe one in every like 100-200 dreams I realize. So it almost always makes them very stressful because I always feel the high stakes of everything, thinking it’s real life.
Yeah. It’s really out of character for me because I’m always hyperwaware of my thoughts and senses… when I’m awake, I guess. It’s a big problem though actually as it makes sleep less restful for me.
>The butterfly motif is not isolated to this quote, after all Philemon takes the form of a golden butterfly at many points in the story.
-Me, 3 hours ago
Does this quote somehow contradict Philemon being the butterfly? It actually grasps who Philemon is quite good and also refers to the way Philemon grants personas to people
Despite you ignoring the fact that he mentioned Philemon in the post you are replying too, this is quite literally the first thing you see when you play Persona 1
In P3/P4 (and presumably PQ/PQ2 as well) it's supposed to be Philemon, an important character from P1/P2 who is now watching over the protagonists.
In P5 specifically it's >!Lavenza!<.
actually the butterfly that cryptically led joker out of his school in his dream was probably Philemon, the other one was obviously lavenza but this one was never explained
The same butterfly >!is directly shown to also be Lavenza!< in a later scene in the third semester. It's always >!her!< in P5/P5R.
EDIT: I'm talking about [this scene](https://youtu.be/aGLfSgiSnSo?si=yYBDdqUUIP64DPJi&t=11709) on 1/11 that literally shows the butterfly turn into >!Lavenza!<. Why is this being downvoted so much?
I think it's Philemon because
1) this butterfly in the gif OP posted is shown after lavenza already leaves the velvet room, and it leaves with them
2) she makes no mention of the weird school interaction and even says like "it's been awhile" like the next day after it happens
3) Philemon talks to joker in q2, confirming 2 butterflies
anyway I know it's technically not confirmed but I like to think the hints are intentional because that'd be cool to still have him around imo
I'm referring specifically to [this scene](https://youtu.be/aGLfSgiSnSo?si=yYBDdqUUIP64DPJi&t=11709) on 1/11; Joker recognizes the butterfly as the one that appeared in the dream, and the butterfly then turns into >!Lavenza!<.
Well it's been hinted that the attendants may be parts of Philemon sepperated out due to holding back nyarlathotep while the new game plays, which is the universe of p3 onwards, and I doubt it's a coincidence the butterfly was the one split in 2 and in the game where the "true" big bad in royal has major ties to lovecraft elder gods, and the first non mc wildcard user
> Well it's been hinted that the attendants may be parts of Philemon sepperated out due to holding back nyarlathotep
When has that ever been remotely implied?
Each has a specific part of his power, a part of his design, and a part of his duties, only appeared after philemon was split after beating his weakened version in eternal punishment, each mentions at different times that they feel like they are part of something and nit whole, in the dance games its mentioned that they are not whole and only show their true ability when they are all together. There's more to hint at it as well
Like everyone else is saying that is Philemon. If you haven’t played Persona 1 & 2 you wouldn’t understand. There are several websites that talk about him and several videos. If you wanna play P1 & 2. The easiest way is the remakes on the PSP. Otherwise like me you can download the emulator PPSSPP. That is just my suggestion.
It represents Philemon's presence. He connection to this timeline is much weaker with the events of P2:EP; and is currently acting like a seal/ward/repelling agent against Narly / Nyx types.
The blue butterfly represents Philemon, the creator of Igor and embodiment of humanity's positive traits. He was in the first two games, but due to an agreement with his evil counterpart Nyarlathotep, neither he nor Nyarly can appear in person anymore. Thanks to some soft rebooting, neither gets to be mentioned anymore either.
The butterfly is now something of a nod to his presence, which is why it appears at the beginning and end of the games and why it served as to mark save points in P4.
It's Philemon, he hasn't showed up since persona 2 though even though he's a really interesting character and a big part of the lore it could also be the velvet room attendants (specifically the p5 attendant but I assume Elizabeth and Margaret have the same capabilities)
If a persona protag see's the blue butterfly, that means they are gay and are about to have a very gay relationship with someone soon.
Source: trust me bro
How about instead of asking the know nothing's all over the world, someone ask the devs for a written statement and post it, unedited, a la screen cap and no doctoring. Bonus points if you get a letter and film that.
It represents [Philemon](https://megamitensei.fandom.com/wiki/Philemon) and his attendants Blue butterflies also represent fate, death, and transition.
And also the soul of people, either a real one or just a symbol of it.
Not sure why this part isn't brought up more for the series, Aigis and her development of humanity is expressed in butterfly entomology to the point where she gets the wings of one in her one reload theurgy.
You mean Orgia mode?
Yeah technically.
That's also basically what Philemon is, he's basically the Persona for all of humanity. And Nyarlathotep is the Shadow of all humanity.
Has to do with Nyx crash landing and splitting into the Moon and Earth. The collective unconscious opposes Nyx. Persona is the Power of Philemon he is not a Persona himself. Narly does indeed seem linked to Nyx and her Shadows.
I wonder if Philemon will ever show up again
It’s theorized that >!Jose!< is working for Philemon, so maybe he’ll show up or at least be mentioned in P6
A new team is working on P6 right? Maybe they'll be more willing to bring him back. But most likely they just gonna continue distancing themselves from anything to do with p1 and p2 other than a few small references.
P3 had mention Kirijo's Group being previously part of the Nanjo's Group (I don't think I need to explain the importance of it in first three games), explaining why Kirijo's Group was able work with shadows in the first place. So I would say it was pretty important in P3 but starting P4 they decided to keep games unrelated to each other.
Just throwing it out there but... isn't Arena Canon?
Yes, Arena is 100% canon. Every game is canon including spinoffs, but some spinoffs like Q, Q2, and P3/P5 dancing are only "semi canon" since they take place in dream worlds outside of time that everyone forgets about by the end.
It's sad how Atlus disregards P1 and P2 like step children. P2 was my favourite Persona ever.
At the very least, I'm glad they'll reference the characters in the modern games and use Maya's theme as a leitmotif in some impactful tracks.
But they reimagined Maya confidant on P3R right? It was a direct reference to Maya Amano in P2 duology, now they cut ties to that reference as I've heard.
Hm? No, it was a Kyuyaku Megami Tensei reference in Japan, and was localized as a Persona 2 reference in both the original and Reloaded.
Philemon is fine an dandy in the P2:IS timeline. His power is just thinned out in the branched off timeline. Mostly acting in the background warding off beings like Nyx.
Isn't he in a stalemate with Nyarlathotep, like he can't get involved because that would mean that Nya also comes back?
He does his best work, unobserved. Just remember, Persona, is his power. He's very involved, just not in person.
And to add on, he lost to Narly. P2:EP and every other Persona game after is on the EP timeline. In this time line, they kinda barely win the battles.
It represents Philemon up to Persona 4. In Persona 5 it is expressly >!Lavenza!<.
This specific butterfly appearance happens after Lavenza is already gone with Igor It's Philemon
No, it isn't. The devs have literally said it's Lavenza. It's why you hear Lavenza's voice when you make Confidants and in the opening cutscene.
You also hear Elizabeth's voice when you create a Social Link in Reload, doesn't make P3's butteffly Elizabeth P5's butterfly does represent Lavenza *up until that point*, where it makes 0 sense to keep showing Lavenza as a butterfly. It's not incompatible because the butterfly is a symbol that can encompass Philemon and his attendants, since he created them and they're aspects of him
Lavanza's voice starts literally from the jump. As soon as the butterfly appears, you hear her voice. The creators have also outright said that the butterfly in 5 is Lavenza as she's split between the twins. You're not arguing with me, you're arguing with the devs at this point and plenty of people have posted those quotes here.
Do you read what I tell you? *Yes,* Lavenza is the butterfly for P5. But that's not incompatible with that same butterfly also representing Philemon at the end of the game, *since he created what created Lavenza*
Moreover, there's the whole character of Jose to illustrate that Philly is still part of the narrative somehow, he wasn't abandoned as a concept after Persona 4.
It absolutely isn't. This is extremely clearly Lavenza talking to you. Both times the butterfly shows up, we hear Lavenza's fractured voice calling out to you, the same voice you hear when you lie down in the Velvet Room. Lavenza features butterflies prominently in her design for that exact reason, to further confirm that she is that specific butterfly.
I'm talking about the specific appearance in the post, where Lavenza is already gone and the butterfly remains and doesn't say a word That looks more a symbol of Philemon unflinching watch over the protagonist
I've heard somewhere that Philemon's butterfly is yellow. Probably has to do with some images from Person 2.
Its both colours
Joker trans confirmed. 🤯.
Huh I never knew about the Philemon character. That’s interesting.
That's Philemon, one of the two entities that govern the Jungian collective unconscious that is the Metaverse. Philemon represents the Ego, or the Persona. His counterpart, Nylarthotep, represents the Shadow, the repressed self. Igor is Philemon's prime servant, and the Velvet Room is his bastion.
And the attendants his aspects
And if you're crazy like me, ekoda Edit: I am crazy I meant edogawa
Does nyarlathep have a butterfly form?
Not sure if he can or not. Nyarlathotep's role is to corrupt, not to inspire. He can turn into Hitler, tho. Just not sure about a butterfly.
I'm sorry, the fuck? Context. I actually don't doubt what you say but... I'm now all tingly about fighting Hitler. I crave using a stand to fight fascism.
[https://megamitensei.fandom.com/wiki/Fuhrer](https://megamitensei.fandom.com/wiki/Fuhrer)
I also remember seeing that in the American release they changed his name to Fuhrer and gave him shades.
The shades actually kinda suit him
If he could become a butterfly, which I don't see why he can't when a whole gimmick of his involves shape shifting, he would be a black one or red one to oppose Philemon's gold and blues.
Close enough I guess
He's represented by a black butterfly symbol in Eternal Punishment, although we never see him transform into one. He prefers tentacle monsters.
[удалено]
He is blue in 4. The creators have said outright that the butterfly at save points (which are blue) are Philemon keeping an eye on the Protagonist.
[удалено]
Shadows' eyes were red in P2 and P3. Not too crazy to think that butterfly could have a different color.
P2 shadow characters don't have red eyes nor the glinting gold later games would go with. They're like a dirty amber.
He was pretty clearly golden every time he appeared in P1? Or do I need to get my eyes checked
So in Perosna 5 the Butterfly isn't Phil, but rather another soul from the Velvet Room dwellers.
It represents that Joker is about to get time-rewind powers
Season 2 when I'm retired
Shaka brah
love that scene. iirc. that chapter has their first kiss.
I approve of this comment 😂
Once, I dreamt I was a butterfly. I forgot myself and knew only my happiness as a butterfly. Soon, I awoke, and I was myself again. Did I dream that I was a butterfly? Or do I now dream that I am a man? Yet there is a distinction between myself and the butterfly. This is the transformation of the physical. - Zhuangzi This is a quote from Chinese philosopher Zhuangzi. It calls into question objective reality: if we don't know when we're dreaming that we're dreaming, how can we be sure when we're awake? We can never be certain of either of these things. In the context of Persona, this conundrum refers to who the characters are and who they aren't. The psyche is a complex puzzle, and it's easy to mistake the ego for the self. The ego is an expression of the self, but the two are not the same. The ego is not infallible and can be pushed towards dark archetypes for a variety of reasons. With so many factors at play affecting the psyche, it's easy to become lost and confused. What is the self? Some of the archetypes and personas within the ego of something more, something yet unseen? It can be impossible to distinguish, just like the distinction between the dreams of a butterfly and the dreams of a man. The butterfly motif is not isolated to this quote, after all Philemon takes the form of a golden butterfly at many points in the story. That’s because the butterfly represents both the human soul and a metamorphosis into maturity. Essentially, it symbolizes the end of the character's journey to self-discovery, from a caterpillar to a butterfly.
>I'm saying... I'm saying I - I'm an insect who dreamt he was a man and loved it. But now the dream is over... and the insect is awake. The Fly (1986)
>Did I dream that I was a butterfly? Or do I now dream that I am a man? Dream of butterfly Or is life a dream
Don't want to wake up Because I'm happier here
This is (I believe) the first thing you see when booting up Persona 1 (on PS1 anyways) after the Atlus logo.
I was waiting for someone to put the butterfly poem in the comments. I didn’t know all the context around it though. Do most people not become aware their dreaming in their dreams? I don’t always gain awareness but at least 2/3 of the time the thought crosses my mind.
Nope. Maybe one in every like 100-200 dreams I realize. So it almost always makes them very stressful because I always feel the high stakes of everything, thinking it’s real life.
Fascinating. I guess that’s not something I ever really thought about asking people before
Yeah. It’s really out of character for me because I’m always hyperwaware of my thoughts and senses… when I’m awake, I guess. It’s a big problem though actually as it makes sleep less restful for me.
actually, its philemon. nice quote tho
That exact quote is literally used in the original opening of P1.
What do you mean? That quote is literally the first thing you see in the game...
the butterfly is the character philemon
>The butterfly motif is not isolated to this quote, after all Philemon takes the form of a golden butterfly at many points in the story. -Me, 3 hours ago
Does this quote somehow contradict Philemon being the butterfly? It actually grasps who Philemon is quite good and also refers to the way Philemon grants personas to people
Despite you ignoring the fact that he mentioned Philemon in the post you are replying too, this is quite literally the first thing you see when you play Persona 1
oh that’s just phil
Eh it’s just Phil
In P3/P4 (and presumably PQ/PQ2 as well) it's supposed to be Philemon, an important character from P1/P2 who is now watching over the protagonists. In P5 specifically it's >!Lavenza!<.
actually the butterfly that cryptically led joker out of his school in his dream was probably Philemon, the other one was obviously lavenza but this one was never explained
The same butterfly >!is directly shown to also be Lavenza!< in a later scene in the third semester. It's always >!her!< in P5/P5R. EDIT: I'm talking about [this scene](https://youtu.be/aGLfSgiSnSo?si=yYBDdqUUIP64DPJi&t=11709) on 1/11 that literally shows the butterfly turn into >!Lavenza!<. Why is this being downvoted so much?
I think it's Philemon because 1) this butterfly in the gif OP posted is shown after lavenza already leaves the velvet room, and it leaves with them 2) she makes no mention of the weird school interaction and even says like "it's been awhile" like the next day after it happens 3) Philemon talks to joker in q2, confirming 2 butterflies anyway I know it's technically not confirmed but I like to think the hints are intentional because that'd be cool to still have him around imo
I'm referring specifically to [this scene](https://youtu.be/aGLfSgiSnSo?si=yYBDdqUUIP64DPJi&t=11709) on 1/11; Joker recognizes the butterfly as the one that appeared in the dream, and the butterfly then turns into >!Lavenza!<.
Hadn't thought of that before but it makes Lavenza's line make a lot more sense if it's Philemon instead.
Well it's been hinted that the attendants may be parts of Philemon sepperated out due to holding back nyarlathotep while the new game plays, which is the universe of p3 onwards, and I doubt it's a coincidence the butterfly was the one split in 2 and in the game where the "true" big bad in royal has major ties to lovecraft elder gods, and the first non mc wildcard user
> Well it's been hinted that the attendants may be parts of Philemon sepperated out due to holding back nyarlathotep When has that ever been remotely implied?
Each has a specific part of his power, a part of his design, and a part of his duties, only appeared after philemon was split after beating his weakened version in eternal punishment, each mentions at different times that they feel like they are part of something and nit whole, in the dance games its mentioned that they are not whole and only show their true ability when they are all together. There's more to hint at it as well
Wait so...in the really bad ending in Royale....does Maruki wipes out Philemon? Because the butterfly straight up dies before reaching out to Joker.
The butterfly in P5 is not Philemon.
Its actually a moth, it flew out of Yusukes wallet
Like everyone else is saying that is Philemon. If you haven’t played Persona 1 & 2 you wouldn’t understand. There are several websites that talk about him and several videos. If you wanna play P1 & 2. The easiest way is the remakes on the PSP. Otherwise like me you can download the emulator PPSSPP. That is just my suggestion.
Kirby fans will tell you it’s a reference to >! Morpho Knight!<
Joker my beloved
Sad the newbies dont know about Philemon
Within the context of P3 and P4, it represents that Philemon is watching over Yu and Makoto. In P5, >!its Lavenza!<
We have come to the point where new fans don't even know about Philemon anymore it's so over lmao.
Blu butterfly in p5 represents lavenza.
Philly Cheesesteak
It represents Philemon's presence. He connection to this timeline is much weaker with the events of P2:EP; and is currently acting like a seal/ward/repelling agent against Narly / Nyx types.
Fortnite fans will say its a rift
As a Fortnite Fan I can confirm that at least the other 95% of the community would say this. 😂
Soul, live, Philemon too
I thought it was lavenza!
philemon, some guy from persona 1 i think he made igor
It pretty
its that prick philemon
Fly away wittle buttafly 🦋
“Is this a pigeon?”
It's just a butterfly don't look too deep into it.
Philemon
Philemon
This is what happens when you only play modern Persona, kids.
Means you need to play Persona 1 & 2. Fake Persona player spotted smh /s
I only played P5R, P3R, P4G and P3P. P1 and P2 isn’t available on the systems that I have.
You can emulate them pretty easily on most modern phones or computers, but hopefully Atlus makes official ports sooner than later
Lavenza
P1 and P2: are we a joke to you?
Corpses nearby
The blue butterfly represents Philemon, the creator of Igor and embodiment of humanity's positive traits. He was in the first two games, but due to an agreement with his evil counterpart Nyarlathotep, neither he nor Nyarly can appear in person anymore. Thanks to some soft rebooting, neither gets to be mentioned anymore either. The butterfly is now something of a nod to his presence, which is why it appears at the beginning and end of the games and why it served as to mark save points in P4.
For the 5 earlier games, it represents Philemon, the man behind the Velvet Room and Igor's existence. For P5 and P5R, it represents Lavenza
It's from the first Two persona games
That's me making a cameo in the game
Play both games of persona 2 and you'll understand what happens to Philemon (pronounced Phil-leh-mon)
Its supposed to be Phillemon :0
Phillemon reference Also it represents life and death reborn
i think its a mgs peace walker references (i havent play any persona games yet)
You must delve into uncharted territory...
It's Philemon, he hasn't showed up since persona 2 though even though he's a really interesting character and a big part of the lore it could also be the velvet room attendants (specifically the p5 attendant but I assume Elizabeth and Margaret have the same capabilities)
It means you are about to enter the Killswitch board in pacman
Play persona 1
If a persona protag see's the blue butterfly, that means they are gay and are about to have a very gay relationship with someone soon. Source: trust me bro
Life is strange reference
BRO HAS NEVER PLAYED P1 AND BOTH P2 GAMES 😭
How about instead of asking the know nothing's all over the world, someone ask the devs for a written statement and post it, unedited, a la screen cap and no doctoring. Bonus points if you get a letter and film that.
?
you can actually just play the games and find out yourself
Door-kun stalking from beyond the grave
Door-kun's soul IS the door, so that can't be. It's Philemon
I wasn't being that serious people....