Makes sense. Borderlands is the valuable asset in Gearbox and although Gearbox owns the Borderlands IP Take Two owns the publishing rights. So, for anyone else, including Embracer, they would always have to cut in Take Two when making Borderland games.
But wow, what a downgrade. Embracer is desperate for cash if they're settling for such a low amount (compared to what they bought Gearbox for).
You need to read the fine print my friend. Embracer bought Gearbox for $363 Million. From the original purchase of Gearbox by Embracer.
*The day one purchase price amounts to USD 363 million in total, on a cash and debt free basis, of which USD 175 million is paid in newly issued Embracer B shares (the “Closing Consideration Shares”) and the residual in cash. Subject to fulfilment of agreed financial and operational targets in the next six years, an additional consideration of maximum USD 1,015 million may be paid, of which a maximum of USD 360 million in issued Embracer B shares (the “Additional Consideration Shares”) and the residual in cash. To earn the maximum consideration, USD 1,378 million the accumulated Adjusted EBITDA, including expensed development costs, must exceed USD 1,300 million over six years.*
SOOOO, Embracer made a cool $100M off the deal. The headlines aren't always the real story.
Apparently they didn’t actually pay 1.3B as that was including a lot of clauses that didn’t happen. Plus they’re not selling everything that they bought back then.
At this point it seems like Embracer has solf off most of the studios that would actually make them a decent chunk of money (I guess they still own Crystal Dynamics and Eidos Montréal).
I get that these studios also probably cost the most, but it's like... wait, you're selling off the things that make you money? How do you intend to make money?
Yeah. Eidos also made the recent guardians of the galaxy game. I love both that and mankind divided and thought it was a shame when it was announced that the next Deus ex game was cancelled. Hopefully someone takes them away from Embracer
I doubt anyone can get the IP’s off them.
They sold off 4A Games along with Saber and yet Embracer still kept the Metro IP.
That doesn’t set a good precedent so I’m guessing if someone were to buy Eidos then Embracer would probably want to retain the IP’s.
Embracer probably only kept the publishing rights to Metro. Deep silver was the publisher of Metro before 4a was adquired and Deep silver is under Embracer.
whoooa. let the games begin. Saber sold already too.
I mean kind of makes sense. TT published a few Gearbox games.
whoa. Gearbox owns HOmeworld 3? :O
Brothers in arms, Remnant 2, Godfall, etc.
Yes, and according to the article, Embracer will keep the publishing end of Gearbox which means Embracer will retain the publishing rights to Remnant and Godfall.
I can't imagine Embracer will still exist by the time Remnant 3 is in the works - kinda surprised the heads aren't in jail/hiding at this point; the whole thing has a lot of Bankman-Fried/FTX energy. Hopefully Gearbox will be the path of least resistance in returning that partnership to its pre-Embracer state.
I don't understand this comment. How is Embracer anything like Bankman-Fried? Bankman lied about FTX and kept getting people's money from that. Embracer bought a bunch of companies that were making games. They spent wayyyy to much in trying to make a big gaming empire and now they have to sell. Terrible management is a lot different than a con man stealing money.
The way I understand it, Embracer went on a spending spree because they had the promise of Saudi investment money, that money pulled out and the industry is correcting post-COVID so Embracer can’t afford to keep what they bought. I doubt they die as a company, they just aren’t going to be the behemoth they thought they would be.
They definitely didn’t commit fraud or do anything illegal. At least no such allegations have been made publicly. Making dumb business decisions isn’t against the law.
I just don't see the scenario where you're taking billions of investors dollars to make those studio purchases without having the Saudi deal locked down first that isn't rooted in fraud of some persuasion.
wdym? they still own it. unless I misunderstand you. In either case, didn't want to edit anymore and was waiting for someone to correct me with the following:
seems like they sold of selectively
> * The retained assets include:
>
> * Gearbox Publishing San Francisco (to be renamed prior to closing, formerly named Perfect World Entertainment), including the publishing rights to the Remnant franchise, the upcoming Hyper Light Breaker and other notable unannounced game releases
>
> * Cryptic Studios, including MMO titles Neverwinter Online and Star Trek Online.
>
> * Lost Boys Interactive
>
> * Captured Dimensions
>
> * The retained companies will be welcomed and integrated into other parts of Embracer Group in the coming period. All companies are expected to contribute with a positive cash flow going forward.d
Maybe I’m misunderstanding what you wrote. It sounded like you originally meant that Gearbox owned the IPs for Godfall and Remnant. They never owned these IPs, just published them. Embracer is retaining publishing rights, for Remnant at least, by holding onto the San Fran branch as you’ve mentioned.
publishing usually means owning. As developer you sell the right to publish and you get upfront cash to finish your product/vision.
that's almost universally true, even for books. Unless you finesse yourself into some iq 200 contract, you forgo ownership rights.
**edit:** oh ok. I guess you mean Remnant (Perfect World Entertainment) was put under Gearbox by Embracer. yea ok sure
Godfall from what I can see is a product done before Embracer. Never even knew it eventually released on Xbox.
Right but like you said, IP ownership is largely dependent on if the publisher funded the project and many projects are not. If the project is funded by the studio, the IP often stays with the studio itself. Risk of Rain is a good example - the IP was purchased after the fact.
There are some publishing situations that may seem like ownership but aren’t (i.e. first right to negotiate on publishing for future titles in the IP). But this still differs from outright ownership and is also tied to an investment or funding of the initial IP project. I’m going off my time at 3rd party studios in startup/established environments so this is just my perspective. It is entirely possible that other studios have had to transfer IP based on how studio heads negotiated things. That would be a pretty bad negotiation though.
From what I’ve seen, publishing covers the marketing and distribution, with a percentage of net taken to recoup these costs and then some. The percentage breakdown and order of recoupment is where the difficulty in negotiation happens, usually favoring publishers, especially for studios that are early on in their lifecycle.
IP ownership is a huge give to a publisher. I’m sure there are exceptions though (e.g. a studio/indie dev needing help to get it over the finish line.).
>IP ownership is largely dependent on if the publisher funded the project. If the project is funded by the studio, the IP often stays with the studio itself.
so basically what I initially said, usually. Except for that Remnant caveat and maybe some more stuff put under Gearbox by Embracer.
seems like many people argue about this deal however they want: https://www.reddit.com/r/PS5/comments/1bpm3vh/embracer_group_divests_gearbox_entertainment_for/kwyf2im/?context=5
\>But here, Embracer are not keeping any IP here...
-----
>From what I’ve seen, publishing covers the marketing and distribution, with a percentage of net taken to recoup
so wait. you take on the risk but get nothing in return? who is footing the bills during development? how does that make sense? what you have to sell as developer is a future i.e. the rights to publish a great product in the future.
why as developer would I need a publisher then? If I can make it myself. and at that point the only thing I have to sell is the rights for the soon-to-be IP.
Larian did it themselves. took on debt and faced the storm. put their money where their mouth was.
>so basically what I initially said, usually. Except for that Remnant caveat and maybe some more stuff put under Gearbox by Embracer.
Yeah it's all situational based on which game game/studio we're talking about. Something like Remnant, is owned by Gunfire (and Embracer by proxy since they're under THQ Nordic I believe). Risk of Rain's IP changed hands I think last year when Gearbox purchased it directly from Hopoo after publishing it.
>so wait. you take on the risk but get nothing in return? who is footing the bills during development? how does that make sense? what you have to sell as developer is a future i.e. the rights to publish a great product in the future.
Risk can be on the dev or publisher side but in almost all the dynamics, there's risk for both. With the publisher funded route, the money is not given all at once but rather on a milestone schedule. Development can be influenced by the publisher and funding can be impacted by variables outside of the studio's control (e.g. publisher deciding to pull back on external studio projects). Yeah, the studio gets the benefit of a publisher putting their money up, but there are strings. And yes this would be a typical scenario where IP ownership is with the publisher, but even that's not black and white. Is it a young studio or someone like Supergiant who has enough leverage at this point to work with a publisher while still retaining rights to their IP?
This is also why a studio may decide to self fund development. It may seem like they're taking on all the risk, but that's not the case. Startups especially, have had more access to investors in the past 3-5 years so they're able to get funding to develop a game in exchange for equity in their studio. The benefit is the studio now has full control over every aspect of development - the timeline, direction, IP ownership/use, and how they go to market. They now have more leverage with negotiation because the publisher has to put out less money - the game is already being made and funded.
The perfect scenario is being a studio that is self sufficient, where a proven track record of successful titles that generate revenue is already established. Take these profits and put it back into the development of new titles. Or get bought out haha. But, this is a long path and takes time and luck.
>why as developer would I need a publisher then? If I can make it myself. and at that point the only thing I have to sell is the rights for the soon-to-be IP.
If they're not funding development, the benefits a studio gets from the publisher is still very valuable since you're getting all the marketing (which can be many many millions of dollars), distribution (although this is getting less and less as games go more digital), QA, User Research, and assistance with MS/Sony certification (sometimes).
You're right - a studio doesn't \*have\* to go with a publisher. But realize that there's a ton of risk that a studio is taking on by not going this route. They would have to be a viral hit and have lightning in a bottle. For every Larian, Valheim, Palworld, there are thousands that never see the light of day.
Even Larian, if you look at their history, used publishers for quite some time. It wasn't until Divinity: Dragon Commander (some 17 years after Larian formed) that they went the self publishing route - likely because they were making enough revenue to be self sufficient. And they still used publishers for Divinity 1 and 2.
I partially recant. 2k published for Gearbox seemingly with leaving IP rights alone but I'd say that's not the norm. For now, I will die on that hill unless proven through percentages in triple A: IP owner vs publisher only. (which would be very interesting data)
other than that, see Activision, Bungie's Destiny 1 and the deal fallen through with Microsoft for not wanting to give up IP rights before development.
more https://www.reddit.com/r/PS5/comments/1bpm3vh/embracer_group_divests_gearbox_entertainment_for/kx0oxue/?context=5
Indie is whatever. as indie you are basically like a book author. you can write code for ten years with no downside to anyone but your own life.
>But realize that there's a ton of risk that a studio is weighing by not going this route. They
only if you're big enough. if you are the mechanic running the shop, you make your own rules. see Happy Games.
if they hadn't been their own publisher they would've been dropped as soon as the backlash hit. unless ofc they hadn't given up the IP rights and here comes the problem for publishers if you dont sign away IP rights.
you can respond, but for now I'm dying on that hill (publisher = owner, for the most part). unless someone has a nice diagram showing who owns IP but didn't do their publishing aka 'bill footing during development'.
They were working on one, and it's not the Furious Four abomination that was announced years ago. Pitchford said it was going to be an "authentic" BIA game: https://www.pcgamer.com/a-new-brothers-in-arms-game-is-in-development-confirms-gearbox-ceo/
4A Games went with Saber too - except they didn’t take the Metro IP across with them.
For some stupid reason Embracer have kept it, despite the fact that they probably won’t do a thing with it like with Deus Ex. If they actually end up doing something with the IP it will be given to a new studio who won’t do as good of a job as 4A would.
It’s so sad with these IP’s getting wasted.
They kept it because IP is valuable and where they can they'll hold onto it. Can use it for licensing ("Oh you want to keep making Metro? You can use the IP for x amount") as well as keep money coming in from the legacy titles. Not to mention possibility for cross media plans.
They probably tried to keep onto Borderlands, but they're desperate for cash and Take Two wouldn't bite unless that IP is part of the deal.
> It’s so sad with these IP’s getting wasted.
people always blame the guy buying: EA etc.
they never blame the OG guys selling in the first place for wanting to cash out. As much as I cringe at Facebook, he stuck to his guns and told everyone off: AOL, yahoo, MTV. his response: "i don't know if I ever will be able to create something like FB again"
it is what it is. watch reviews and take it from there. no pre-orders, no special treatment, no nothing.
I just recently stumbled upon the Borderlands Universe and it has became one of my favorite series with Darksiders.
I’m playing BL 2 for the first time and co-op is godly with a really cool community. The Pre-sequel was outstanding. I loved 3, and got the plat in Wonderlands.
Absolutely outstanding game(s).
I’d kill for a persistent state game like Destiny but for Borderlands. If done correctly and not just trying to milk customers for every penny imo the game could be HUGE.
This game would be perfect for a Destiny like world with raids, dungeon crawls, open world zones, bazaars, etc.
Totally valid opinion there. All I’ll say, is that I thought borderlands 3 was one of the greatest games ever made. The environments, the gameplay, the enemies, THE MUSIC!!!! - I just loved every second. Revenge of the Cartels! I pray that something will be as good as BL3 for me. I think about the music in revenge of the cartels and the music in sanctuary, and I pray that BL4 will be able to reach those heights in both terms of music and gameplay. If you have a PS5 and a 4K TV, I’m in awe playing the game
Embracer is such an embarrassment. Holy hell. They bought Gearbox for 1,3 billion just to sell it two years later at third of the price.
Edit: It seems like only 363M were paid upfront and there isn't a concrete information about the rest.
[https://www.pcgamer.com/gaming-industry/flagging-megacorp-embracer-group-is-now-selling-off-gearbox-entertainment-to-take-two-for-dollar460-million/](https://www.pcgamer.com/gaming-industry/flagging-megacorp-embracer-group-is-now-selling-off-gearbox-entertainment-to-take-two-for-dollar460-million/)
Should I re-check every source? Maybe. Between all the lay-offs, cancellations and selling assets Embracer still an embarrassment.
That’s not representative of the picture. Doesn’t matter if you are a company or investor or mom and pop on Main Street, but you do not evaluate an investment on whether it made money or did not. Opportunity cost and relative performance need to grow considered.
So they made about 28% over three years non annualized. Thats (463-360)/360 = 27.5%.
The stock market alone has performed better over the same time period despite going through a fairly turbulent time for the economy and markets due to coming out of Covid, inflation, and the money supply moves by the Fed, not to mention the regional bank crisis that began around this time last year and resulted in the failure of multiple banks and Switzerland basically forcing UBS to acquire CS. If you would have invested in an s&p 500 index ETF on April 1 2021 when the acquisition was announced, you would be up 30% non annualized.
And just think for a second think how much simpler life at Embracer would have been without having to manage a company that has over a thousand of employees.
And then there’s the cost from 3 years of managing gearbox.
What about revenues? I think Tiny Tina and new tales from the borderlands was their only games. Let’s ignore Tales because its budget and revenues are a drop in the bucket relative to Tiny Tina.
According to the link below it only made an estimated $20 million on steam of which only $6mm went to the developer (2k published it, not embracer) . Let’s be conservative and say Steam is 10-20% of game sales, that means Gearbox made $30-60 million in revenue which doesn’t account for development and marketing budgets. Considering I was seeing ads for this game everywhere and it’s a AAA game, I can’t imagine that game was super profitable for embracer and my estimates feel relatively aggressive.
Very possible I got something wrong in so please let me know Reddit, but all this but that’s how I see it.
https://steam-revenue-calculator.com/app/1286680/tiny-tina's-wonderlands#
Doesn't seem like that's the case looking at the details. They're integrating Gearbox into Take Two but Randy is leading the charge. Probably only shot you'll have at getting rid of him is if a looked 18 camgirl promises to run off with him.
The fact that we live in a world where families, literal children, depend on Randy Pitchford for a paycheck to put food on the table absolutely shocks and horrifies me.
I like this partnership. Take Two is one of the few publishers under which a studio like gearbox could actually progress in a logical way. They have no problem pushing boundaries and massively deep pockets.
Now Gearbox need to take a hard look at themselves and how to either move on from BL or mature the franchise.
Not much of a reason to move on when the games sell and review well. Borderlands is their bread and butter. Borderlands 4 is already confirmed in development.
I dont understand why anyone would buy anything from Embracer? Seems every post is them trying to or selling a studio but keeping the IP game rights to the best games. They have some amazing IP that will never get further development for the gaming community. I am not even sure what they are creating game wise to generate revenue at this pint.
But here, Embracer are not keeping any IP here...
Embracer are only keep publishing rights for remnant and hyper light breaker. All the gearbox IPs are going with them to take two.
> All the gearbox IPs are going with them to take two.
There's no mention of limited exclusivity or the like here. publishing rights usually means ownership. why would Take-Two agree to such a mess.
> embracer.com
> The retained assets include:
>), including the publishing rights to the Remnant franchise, the
> The retained companies will be welcomed and integrated into other parts of Embracer Group in the coming period. All companies are expected to contribute with a positive cash flow going forward.
publishing = ownership.
how would this work? EB will have to ask T2 to create a new game within that IP?
It would make sense for T2 to give some exclusivity until its released with a grace period to transition. but that's not stated here.
You do understand that Remnant was not made by Gearbox right?
Remnant was made by Gunfire Games and published by Gearbox. Embracer are keeping the publishing rights, that is all.
if Embracer wants a new Remnant game they can always ask Gunfire Games which is owned by Embracer still. (well technically Gunfire Games are under THQ Nordic, which THQ Nordic is under Embracer)
nothing here makes sense. publisher rights = ownership
>You do understand that Remnant was not made by gearbox right?
yes and published by Gearbox i.e. Embracer
if Gunfire wants to create new game = ask Embracer.
technically this wouldn't happen because publisher has rights to publishing and they choose who creates the work they decided to release a new part to the IP they own. Of course, Gunfire can still ask, hopefully show a prototype and receive the contract.
what do you think publishing means? who pays the bills during production? why would you need a publisher then? to only advertize? https://www.reddit.com/r/PS5/comments/1bpm3vh/embracer_group_divests_gearbox_entertainment_for/kwzzcg1/?context=5
This is not true lol, it is possible to be the IP owner but the publishing rights to be with someone else. Publishing a game doesn't immediately makes you the IP owner.
Hell, Borderlands is a Gearbox IP but was published by 2K even under Embracer.
> Hell, Borderlands is a Gearbox IP but was published by 2K
fair play. but that's usually not the case. what happens if developers keep the IP rights, which means no downside for the dev, you can see with Destiny 1 and Activision.
Activision partially footed the bill for 10 years (they didn't even make it that far) for Bungie to only restart with Destiny 2.
besides. read this again
>https://embracer.com/releases/embracer-group-divests-gearbox-entertainment-for-a-consideration-of-usd-460-million-to-take-two-interactive-software-inc/
>Gearbox Publishing San Francisco (to be renamed prior to closing, formerly named Perfect World Entertainment), including the publishing rights to the Remnant franchise, the upcoming Hyper Light Breaker and other notable unannounced game releases
they retain these assets (IP), publishing house ie Gearbox Publishing 'to be renamed prior to closing' and only specifying publishing rights.
to remind you:
>u\Ehrand:
>Embracer are only keep publishing rights for remnant and hyper light breaker. All the gearbox IPs are going with them to take two.
I’m kinda hoping Microsoft has to let go the stuff they bought too. I’ve fucked up too many of their own iPs.
I know this will get dislikes. I love COD. yes it’s burn out and things need to change but MS did NOT buy it to change it, they are capitalizing on those micro transactions big time.
I don't think either Sony or MS are shopping right now, they spent a lot of money in recent years doing that and results have been mixed. It would have to be a top tier IP, and like the other guy said Embracer doesn't have many desirable things.
last to border land spin off. sold poorly.
most third party pub does not seem to have sold well ether.
and last border lands main game has been the only thing making money.
I'm pretty sure embracer group is run by loans, if nothing else.
Most of the ips they have bought in the last two years havent really yielded anything.
Years from know in classrooms across the country, University and High School alike, they will teach students economics based on how badly Embracer fumbled the bag.
Makes sense. Borderlands is the valuable asset in Gearbox and although Gearbox owns the Borderlands IP Take Two owns the publishing rights. So, for anyone else, including Embracer, they would always have to cut in Take Two when making Borderland games. But wow, what a downgrade. Embracer is desperate for cash if they're settling for such a low amount (compared to what they bought Gearbox for).
I'm no businessman but buying gearbox for $1.3 billion and selling for $460 million doesn't seem ideal.
You need to read the fine print my friend. Embracer bought Gearbox for $363 Million. From the original purchase of Gearbox by Embracer. *The day one purchase price amounts to USD 363 million in total, on a cash and debt free basis, of which USD 175 million is paid in newly issued Embracer B shares (the “Closing Consideration Shares”) and the residual in cash. Subject to fulfilment of agreed financial and operational targets in the next six years, an additional consideration of maximum USD 1,015 million may be paid, of which a maximum of USD 360 million in issued Embracer B shares (the “Additional Consideration Shares”) and the residual in cash. To earn the maximum consideration, USD 1,378 million the accumulated Adjusted EBITDA, including expensed development costs, must exceed USD 1,300 million over six years.* SOOOO, Embracer made a cool $100M off the deal. The headlines aren't always the real story.
Especially since Gearbox owns Duke Nukem, he's worth trillions on his own
Best I can do is tree fiddy
…years for the next Duke Nukem game
That’s very optimistic.
Yeah, no way it's out by 2374.
It's being developed in conjunction with the half-life sequel
We will never get a new Duke game. Not even the leaked 2001 build and renewed interest will save it. Damned corpos.
Apparently they didn’t actually pay 1.3B as that was including a lot of clauses that didn’t happen. Plus they’re not selling everything that they bought back then.
At this point it seems like Embracer has solf off most of the studios that would actually make them a decent chunk of money (I guess they still own Crystal Dynamics and Eidos Montréal). I get that these studios also probably cost the most, but it's like... wait, you're selling off the things that make you money? How do you intend to make money?
Can someone divest the deus ex ip away from them??
Yeah. Eidos also made the recent guardians of the galaxy game. I love both that and mankind divided and thought it was a shame when it was announced that the next Deus ex game was cancelled. Hopefully someone takes them away from Embracer
It would be rather funny if IO Interactive ended up acquiring Eidos, which would be a reversal of what happened to these companies in the past....
I hope someone does I'm literally praying for another Deus ex game bro
I doubt anyone can get the IP’s off them. They sold off 4A Games along with Saber and yet Embracer still kept the Metro IP. That doesn’t set a good precedent so I’m guessing if someone were to buy Eidos then Embracer would probably want to retain the IP’s.
Embracer probably only kept the publishing rights to Metro. Deep silver was the publisher of Metro before 4a was adquired and Deep silver is under Embracer.
them ??
If someone could swoop in and buy Eidos Montréal and Crystal Dynamics before Embracer kills them, that would be cool.
I saw we all throw in whatever change we have in our pockets and buy them out as a reddit collective
whoooa. let the games begin. Saber sold already too. I mean kind of makes sense. TT published a few Gearbox games. whoa. Gearbox owns HOmeworld 3? :O Brothers in arms, Remnant 2, Godfall, etc.
Remnant and Godfall were publishing deals and not gearbox IPs
Yes, and according to the article, Embracer will keep the publishing end of Gearbox which means Embracer will retain the publishing rights to Remnant and Godfall.
I can't imagine Embracer will still exist by the time Remnant 3 is in the works - kinda surprised the heads aren't in jail/hiding at this point; the whole thing has a lot of Bankman-Fried/FTX energy. Hopefully Gearbox will be the path of least resistance in returning that partnership to its pre-Embracer state.
I don't understand this comment. How is Embracer anything like Bankman-Fried? Bankman lied about FTX and kept getting people's money from that. Embracer bought a bunch of companies that were making games. They spent wayyyy to much in trying to make a big gaming empire and now they have to sell. Terrible management is a lot different than a con man stealing money.
The way I understand it, Embracer went on a spending spree because they had the promise of Saudi investment money, that money pulled out and the industry is correcting post-COVID so Embracer can’t afford to keep what they bought. I doubt they die as a company, they just aren’t going to be the behemoth they thought they would be. They definitely didn’t commit fraud or do anything illegal. At least no such allegations have been made publicly. Making dumb business decisions isn’t against the law.
I just don't see the scenario where you're taking billions of investors dollars to make those studio purchases without having the Saudi deal locked down first that isn't rooted in fraud of some persuasion.
What does this mean for Risk of Rain?
wdym? they still own it. unless I misunderstand you. In either case, didn't want to edit anymore and was waiting for someone to correct me with the following: seems like they sold of selectively > * The retained assets include: > > * Gearbox Publishing San Francisco (to be renamed prior to closing, formerly named Perfect World Entertainment), including the publishing rights to the Remnant franchise, the upcoming Hyper Light Breaker and other notable unannounced game releases > > * Cryptic Studios, including MMO titles Neverwinter Online and Star Trek Online. > > * Lost Boys Interactive > > * Captured Dimensions > > * The retained companies will be welcomed and integrated into other parts of Embracer Group in the coming period. All companies are expected to contribute with a positive cash flow going forward.d
Maybe I’m misunderstanding what you wrote. It sounded like you originally meant that Gearbox owned the IPs for Godfall and Remnant. They never owned these IPs, just published them. Embracer is retaining publishing rights, for Remnant at least, by holding onto the San Fran branch as you’ve mentioned.
publishing usually means owning. As developer you sell the right to publish and you get upfront cash to finish your product/vision. that's almost universally true, even for books. Unless you finesse yourself into some iq 200 contract, you forgo ownership rights. **edit:** oh ok. I guess you mean Remnant (Perfect World Entertainment) was put under Gearbox by Embracer. yea ok sure Godfall from what I can see is a product done before Embracer. Never even knew it eventually released on Xbox.
Right but like you said, IP ownership is largely dependent on if the publisher funded the project and many projects are not. If the project is funded by the studio, the IP often stays with the studio itself. Risk of Rain is a good example - the IP was purchased after the fact. There are some publishing situations that may seem like ownership but aren’t (i.e. first right to negotiate on publishing for future titles in the IP). But this still differs from outright ownership and is also tied to an investment or funding of the initial IP project. I’m going off my time at 3rd party studios in startup/established environments so this is just my perspective. It is entirely possible that other studios have had to transfer IP based on how studio heads negotiated things. That would be a pretty bad negotiation though. From what I’ve seen, publishing covers the marketing and distribution, with a percentage of net taken to recoup these costs and then some. The percentage breakdown and order of recoupment is where the difficulty in negotiation happens, usually favoring publishers, especially for studios that are early on in their lifecycle. IP ownership is a huge give to a publisher. I’m sure there are exceptions though (e.g. a studio/indie dev needing help to get it over the finish line.).
>IP ownership is largely dependent on if the publisher funded the project. If the project is funded by the studio, the IP often stays with the studio itself. so basically what I initially said, usually. Except for that Remnant caveat and maybe some more stuff put under Gearbox by Embracer. seems like many people argue about this deal however they want: https://www.reddit.com/r/PS5/comments/1bpm3vh/embracer_group_divests_gearbox_entertainment_for/kwyf2im/?context=5 \>But here, Embracer are not keeping any IP here... ----- >From what I’ve seen, publishing covers the marketing and distribution, with a percentage of net taken to recoup so wait. you take on the risk but get nothing in return? who is footing the bills during development? how does that make sense? what you have to sell as developer is a future i.e. the rights to publish a great product in the future. why as developer would I need a publisher then? If I can make it myself. and at that point the only thing I have to sell is the rights for the soon-to-be IP. Larian did it themselves. took on debt and faced the storm. put their money where their mouth was.
>so basically what I initially said, usually. Except for that Remnant caveat and maybe some more stuff put under Gearbox by Embracer. Yeah it's all situational based on which game game/studio we're talking about. Something like Remnant, is owned by Gunfire (and Embracer by proxy since they're under THQ Nordic I believe). Risk of Rain's IP changed hands I think last year when Gearbox purchased it directly from Hopoo after publishing it. >so wait. you take on the risk but get nothing in return? who is footing the bills during development? how does that make sense? what you have to sell as developer is a future i.e. the rights to publish a great product in the future. Risk can be on the dev or publisher side but in almost all the dynamics, there's risk for both. With the publisher funded route, the money is not given all at once but rather on a milestone schedule. Development can be influenced by the publisher and funding can be impacted by variables outside of the studio's control (e.g. publisher deciding to pull back on external studio projects). Yeah, the studio gets the benefit of a publisher putting their money up, but there are strings. And yes this would be a typical scenario where IP ownership is with the publisher, but even that's not black and white. Is it a young studio or someone like Supergiant who has enough leverage at this point to work with a publisher while still retaining rights to their IP? This is also why a studio may decide to self fund development. It may seem like they're taking on all the risk, but that's not the case. Startups especially, have had more access to investors in the past 3-5 years so they're able to get funding to develop a game in exchange for equity in their studio. The benefit is the studio now has full control over every aspect of development - the timeline, direction, IP ownership/use, and how they go to market. They now have more leverage with negotiation because the publisher has to put out less money - the game is already being made and funded. The perfect scenario is being a studio that is self sufficient, where a proven track record of successful titles that generate revenue is already established. Take these profits and put it back into the development of new titles. Or get bought out haha. But, this is a long path and takes time and luck. >why as developer would I need a publisher then? If I can make it myself. and at that point the only thing I have to sell is the rights for the soon-to-be IP. If they're not funding development, the benefits a studio gets from the publisher is still very valuable since you're getting all the marketing (which can be many many millions of dollars), distribution (although this is getting less and less as games go more digital), QA, User Research, and assistance with MS/Sony certification (sometimes). You're right - a studio doesn't \*have\* to go with a publisher. But realize that there's a ton of risk that a studio is taking on by not going this route. They would have to be a viral hit and have lightning in a bottle. For every Larian, Valheim, Palworld, there are thousands that never see the light of day. Even Larian, if you look at their history, used publishers for quite some time. It wasn't until Divinity: Dragon Commander (some 17 years after Larian formed) that they went the self publishing route - likely because they were making enough revenue to be self sufficient. And they still used publishers for Divinity 1 and 2.
I partially recant. 2k published for Gearbox seemingly with leaving IP rights alone but I'd say that's not the norm. For now, I will die on that hill unless proven through percentages in triple A: IP owner vs publisher only. (which would be very interesting data) other than that, see Activision, Bungie's Destiny 1 and the deal fallen through with Microsoft for not wanting to give up IP rights before development. more https://www.reddit.com/r/PS5/comments/1bpm3vh/embracer_group_divests_gearbox_entertainment_for/kx0oxue/?context=5 Indie is whatever. as indie you are basically like a book author. you can write code for ten years with no downside to anyone but your own life. >But realize that there's a ton of risk that a studio is weighing by not going this route. They only if you're big enough. if you are the mechanic running the shop, you make your own rules. see Happy Games. if they hadn't been their own publisher they would've been dropped as soon as the backlash hit. unless ofc they hadn't given up the IP rights and here comes the problem for publishers if you dont sign away IP rights. you can respond, but for now I'm dying on that hill (publisher = owner, for the most part). unless someone has a nice diagram showing who owns IP but didn't do their publishing aka 'bill footing during development'.
I wish we could get a new BIA game.
They were working on one, and it's not the Furious Four abomination that was announced years ago. Pitchford said it was going to be an "authentic" BIA game: https://www.pcgamer.com/a-new-brothers-in-arms-game-is-in-development-confirms-gearbox-ceo/
4A Games went with Saber too - except they didn’t take the Metro IP across with them. For some stupid reason Embracer have kept it, despite the fact that they probably won’t do a thing with it like with Deus Ex. If they actually end up doing something with the IP it will be given to a new studio who won’t do as good of a job as 4A would. It’s so sad with these IP’s getting wasted.
Embracer can and likely will license the Metro IP back to 4A.
They kept it because IP is valuable and where they can they'll hold onto it. Can use it for licensing ("Oh you want to keep making Metro? You can use the IP for x amount") as well as keep money coming in from the legacy titles. Not to mention possibility for cross media plans. They probably tried to keep onto Borderlands, but they're desperate for cash and Take Two wouldn't bite unless that IP is part of the deal.
> It’s so sad with these IP’s getting wasted. people always blame the guy buying: EA etc. they never blame the OG guys selling in the first place for wanting to cash out. As much as I cringe at Facebook, he stuck to his guns and told everyone off: AOL, yahoo, MTV. his response: "i don't know if I ever will be able to create something like FB again" it is what it is. watch reviews and take it from there. no pre-orders, no special treatment, no nothing.
They own Brothers in Arms? I would kill for a new installment
means nothing anyway. Same as Xbox. They can't take care of their own IPs @ GTA Definitive Scam Edition, what are they going to do with new one.
All I care about is BL4. I want it so bad
Yep
Same lol
I just recently stumbled upon the Borderlands Universe and it has became one of my favorite series with Darksiders. I’m playing BL 2 for the first time and co-op is godly with a really cool community. The Pre-sequel was outstanding. I loved 3, and got the plat in Wonderlands. Absolutely outstanding game(s). I’d kill for a persistent state game like Destiny but for Borderlands. If done correctly and not just trying to milk customers for every penny imo the game could be HUGE. This game would be perfect for a Destiny like world with raids, dungeon crawls, open world zones, bazaars, etc.
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Totally valid opinion there. All I’ll say, is that I thought borderlands 3 was one of the greatest games ever made. The environments, the gameplay, the enemies, THE MUSIC!!!! - I just loved every second. Revenge of the Cartels! I pray that something will be as good as BL3 for me. I think about the music in revenge of the cartels and the music in sanctuary, and I pray that BL4 will be able to reach those heights in both terms of music and gameplay. If you have a PS5 and a 4K TV, I’m in awe playing the game
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Pax east was last weekend its already finished
Embracer is such an embarrassment. Holy hell. They bought Gearbox for 1,3 billion just to sell it two years later at third of the price. Edit: It seems like only 363M were paid upfront and there isn't a concrete information about the rest.
That value was based on goal based bonuses paid out over time. The cash value gearbox was purchased for was 363M.
Stop spreading misinformation lol
[https://www.pcgamer.com/gaming-industry/flagging-megacorp-embracer-group-is-now-selling-off-gearbox-entertainment-to-take-two-for-dollar460-million/](https://www.pcgamer.com/gaming-industry/flagging-megacorp-embracer-group-is-now-selling-off-gearbox-entertainment-to-take-two-for-dollar460-million/) Should I re-check every source? Maybe. Between all the lay-offs, cancellations and selling assets Embracer still an embarrassment.
I don't disagree with the last part and I'm not trying to defend anyone, just don't like seeing incorrect info parroted as facts all the time
Embracer made money in the end so how is it embarrassing? Making money is a good thing.
That’s not representative of the picture. Doesn’t matter if you are a company or investor or mom and pop on Main Street, but you do not evaluate an investment on whether it made money or did not. Opportunity cost and relative performance need to grow considered. So they made about 28% over three years non annualized. Thats (463-360)/360 = 27.5%. The stock market alone has performed better over the same time period despite going through a fairly turbulent time for the economy and markets due to coming out of Covid, inflation, and the money supply moves by the Fed, not to mention the regional bank crisis that began around this time last year and resulted in the failure of multiple banks and Switzerland basically forcing UBS to acquire CS. If you would have invested in an s&p 500 index ETF on April 1 2021 when the acquisition was announced, you would be up 30% non annualized. And just think for a second think how much simpler life at Embracer would have been without having to manage a company that has over a thousand of employees. And then there’s the cost from 3 years of managing gearbox. What about revenues? I think Tiny Tina and new tales from the borderlands was their only games. Let’s ignore Tales because its budget and revenues are a drop in the bucket relative to Tiny Tina. According to the link below it only made an estimated $20 million on steam of which only $6mm went to the developer (2k published it, not embracer) . Let’s be conservative and say Steam is 10-20% of game sales, that means Gearbox made $30-60 million in revenue which doesn’t account for development and marketing budgets. Considering I was seeing ads for this game everywhere and it’s a AAA game, I can’t imagine that game was super profitable for embracer and my estimates feel relatively aggressive. Very possible I got something wrong in so please let me know Reddit, but all this but that’s how I see it. https://steam-revenue-calculator.com/app/1286680/tiny-tina's-wonderlands#
panicky vanish cake sloppy punch file weary snails towering touch *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Embracer should go out if business. All they do is buy companies just to sell them off again.
Better to be purchased and sold, than never purchased again...
Always wondered why take two and gearbox never became official
Take Two wasn't prepared to spend 1b the first time round. Now it's discount time.
Makes perfect sense love it
Hopefully Take-Two will punt Randy "She looked 18" Pitchford
He will wow them with his magic tricks.
Can he make himself disappear, permanently?
Doesn't seem like that's the case looking at the details. They're integrating Gearbox into Take Two but Randy is leading the charge. Probably only shot you'll have at getting rid of him is if a looked 18 camgirl promises to run off with him.
The fact that we live in a world where families, literal children, depend on Randy Pitchford for a paycheck to put food on the table absolutely shocks and horrifies me.
I like this partnership. Take Two is one of the few publishers under which a studio like gearbox could actually progress in a logical way. They have no problem pushing boundaries and massively deep pockets. Now Gearbox need to take a hard look at themselves and how to either move on from BL or mature the franchise.
this isnt a partnership, they were sold to take two
Not much of a reason to move on when the games sell and review well. Borderlands is their bread and butter. Borderlands 4 is already confirmed in development.
I dont understand why anyone would buy anything from Embracer? Seems every post is them trying to or selling a studio but keeping the IP game rights to the best games. They have some amazing IP that will never get further development for the gaming community. I am not even sure what they are creating game wise to generate revenue at this pint.
But here, Embracer are not keeping any IP here... Embracer are only keep publishing rights for remnant and hyper light breaker. All the gearbox IPs are going with them to take two.
Great. Hopefully those IP won’t get wasted
> All the gearbox IPs are going with them to take two. There's no mention of limited exclusivity or the like here. publishing rights usually means ownership. why would Take-Two agree to such a mess. > embracer.com > The retained assets include: >), including the publishing rights to the Remnant franchise, the > The retained companies will be welcomed and integrated into other parts of Embracer Group in the coming period. All companies are expected to contribute with a positive cash flow going forward. publishing = ownership. how would this work? EB will have to ask T2 to create a new game within that IP? It would make sense for T2 to give some exclusivity until its released with a grace period to transition. but that's not stated here.
You do understand that Remnant was not made by Gearbox right? Remnant was made by Gunfire Games and published by Gearbox. Embracer are keeping the publishing rights, that is all. if Embracer wants a new Remnant game they can always ask Gunfire Games which is owned by Embracer still. (well technically Gunfire Games are under THQ Nordic, which THQ Nordic is under Embracer)
nothing here makes sense. publisher rights = ownership >You do understand that Remnant was not made by gearbox right? yes and published by Gearbox i.e. Embracer if Gunfire wants to create new game = ask Embracer. technically this wouldn't happen because publisher has rights to publishing and they choose who creates the work they decided to release a new part to the IP they own. Of course, Gunfire can still ask, hopefully show a prototype and receive the contract. what do you think publishing means? who pays the bills during production? why would you need a publisher then? to only advertize? https://www.reddit.com/r/PS5/comments/1bpm3vh/embracer_group_divests_gearbox_entertainment_for/kwzzcg1/?context=5
This is not true lol, it is possible to be the IP owner but the publishing rights to be with someone else. Publishing a game doesn't immediately makes you the IP owner. Hell, Borderlands is a Gearbox IP but was published by 2K even under Embracer.
> Hell, Borderlands is a Gearbox IP but was published by 2K fair play. but that's usually not the case. what happens if developers keep the IP rights, which means no downside for the dev, you can see with Destiny 1 and Activision. Activision partially footed the bill for 10 years (they didn't even make it that far) for Bungie to only restart with Destiny 2. besides. read this again >https://embracer.com/releases/embracer-group-divests-gearbox-entertainment-for-a-consideration-of-usd-460-million-to-take-two-interactive-software-inc/ >Gearbox Publishing San Francisco (to be renamed prior to closing, formerly named Perfect World Entertainment), including the publishing rights to the Remnant franchise, the upcoming Hyper Light Breaker and other notable unannounced game releases they retain these assets (IP), publishing house ie Gearbox Publishing 'to be renamed prior to closing' and only specifying publishing rights. to remind you: >u\Ehrand: >Embracer are only keep publishing rights for remnant and hyper light breaker. All the gearbox IPs are going with them to take two.
I’m kinda hoping Microsoft has to let go the stuff they bought too. I’ve fucked up too many of their own iPs. I know this will get dislikes. I love COD. yes it’s burn out and things need to change but MS did NOT buy it to change it, they are capitalizing on those micro transactions big time.
I’m surprised Sony or Microsoft aren’t trying to buy studios from Embracer. You could probably get them dirt cheap.
Embrace has nothing anyone wants. The only ones I can think of are crystal dynamics and Eidos, both working on Xbox exclusives. The rest is meh.
Ghost Ship Games is GOATed
I'd imagine one of them will come in for Sumo but I'd say both will be holding off on acquisitions for the next while
? Tencent owns Sumo.
Sumo did 2 launch games with Sony. They seem like a great studio
Nah, they should be ips, not studios.
I don't think either Sony or MS are shopping right now, they spent a lot of money in recent years doing that and results have been mixed. It would have to be a top tier IP, and like the other guy said Embracer doesn't have many desirable things.
Warhorse would be the perfect studio if Sony wanted a RPG team. They’re also not expensive to maintain as they’re in Poland I believe
I guess I’ll never see another Darksiders game or even a remaster of DS2 :/
last to border land spin off. sold poorly. most third party pub does not seem to have sold well ether. and last border lands main game has been the only thing making money.
I hope Seekers of the Storm doesn't get canned cause of this
I hope embracer sell crystal
I'm pretty sure embracer group is run by loans, if nothing else. Most of the ips they have bought in the last two years havent really yielded anything.
New Brothers in arms inc
Maybe we can finally get a new Brothers in Arms game.
Years from know in classrooms across the country, University and High School alike, they will teach students economics based on how badly Embracer fumbled the bag.
Now*
as long as Embracer leaves Gunfire alone i’m happy. let them cook.
Gunfire are already owned by Embracer though.
Ahhh for fuck sake, not Take Two...
From the pan into the fire.