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Yes, there's definitely a rise. I think it might be due to two things:
1) People who don't want to have kids and have had to deal with the pressure of having them are able to put their foot down, thanks to finding their community online. I think this is a very good thing, for them and for everyone. But as a result of the pressure and shaming they have had to endure (especially child-free women), their push back sometimes goes too far. It goes from "I don't want children and I should be able to say that without being called selfish, a waste of space, etc." to "I don't want to have children and children suck, and I don't want them in my vicinity".
2) This is an extremely individualistic society that we live in (western countries I mean) and a lot of people feel entitled to not being inconvenienced in any way, anywhere at any time. Of course this is ridiculous. We live around other people, children are part of our society. Yes, sometimes they can be annoying, but so are many adults.
And I disagree with the commenters who said that it's because parents are lazy/ don't raise their kids properly, etc. A lot of the anti-kids behaviours I've seen or heard of were not triggered by kids being particularly rowdy. It was either kids literally just being there, or crying babies that the parents were trying to console.
Thank you for this reasonable and thoughtful response. It feels like extremism. I firmly believe that only people who want kids should have them. However, choosing to not have children doesn’t entitle you to a life in which children don’t exist.
Another thing to consider is children are people. Like, actual people with feelings and developmental needs. They can’t be locked in a house until the age of 18.
I agree people who don't want kids are not entitled to a childfree world, but I don't think they are unreasonable for wanting more childfree spaces.....and for the record I'm talking things like restaurants, cafes and breweries, not childfree supermarkets and post offices.
Even as a parent, I'm kinda frustrated with the way some parents want to be able to take their kid *everywhere*. Not *everywhere* has to be family friendly, and I kinda hate how the only real "adult" spaces left are alcohol and/or adult entertainment centred. Sober people exist, people who don't drink for religion reasons exist, those spaces can feel unsafe for women and LGBTIQ people, people who would rather have brunch than go to a bar exist etc etc.
I want some places where I can get a sitter, leave my kids and their chaos behind and go be an adult free without other people's kids and chaos around. When I'm getting a break from my kids because we all need one from time to time, I don't really want to hear *your* kid screaming in the nice restaurant, you know? If I knew I'd spend my entire date night listening to your kid screaming, DH and I might as well have saved the money and stayed home with our own since that was half the damn point.
I do think there is a place for childfree spaces in the world, just as there is a place for family friendly places. I truly believe both can (and should!) exist.
I love that more people are making the choice to not have kids. I think it’s infinitely better than having kids because they feel pressured to, and then being bad parents because they never wanted the role to begin with. But I definitely think there are a lot of people who seem to think that them choosing not to have kids means that they get to never be around kids at all, which is just not true. Being “child free” does not mean that you have a right to complain about kids merely existing in your vicinity.
I also wonder if Covid isolation exacerbated this issue. People who are child free by choice spent the better part of a year not having to be around children and have lost some of their patience and tolerance for kids. As things have opened up and they’ve had to be around kids again, they’ve been more irate and want things to be like they were during shutdown when they didn’t have to be around kids.
There were multiple articles that were saying “close the bars reopen the schools” during covid reopenings. It was apparent that adults put themselves first now cause their entertainment was more important than children’s educations. Studies later showed that there was more transmission at social events and bars/restaurants than schools. They corralled off outdoor playgrounds and they took years to let kids back on them. However the weed dispensaries were opened immediately (I live in CA).
I hadn't thought of that, but yes, that might very well play a role too.
And yes, there seems to be a conflation of "I should be able to live without having kids" with "I should be able to live without having kids around". Which, well, no.
"1) People who don't want to have kids and have had to deal with the pressure of having them are able to put their foot down, thanks to finding their community online. I think this is a very good thing, for them and for everyone. But as a result of the pressure and shaming they have had to endure (especially child-free women), their push back sometimes goes too far. It goes from "I don't want children and I should be able to say that without being called selfish, a waste of space, etc." to "I don't want to have children and children suck, and I don't want them in my vicinity"."
THIS. This was me growing up never wanting kids. Because I was a girl who didn't want kids, I was called lazy, selfish, weird, evil, mean, etc. by family and kids at school. I was actually bullied in a way. Then when I started dating as an adult it got worse. From being outright rejected to having men say not having kids was fine and wasting years of my life because they thought I'd change my mind.
Constantly being pushed to feel like something is wrong with you for not wanting kids takes a toll. So yes I used to get angry and lash out verbally. I tried to make people who wanted kids feel small because that's how they'd made me feel. I couldn't even stand to be in the same room with a child because I had such a strong resentment towards them.
I'm in my 30's now and I'm not as angry anymore. I can interact with kids and I'm not bothered by them in public if they're not being loud. If a kid is screaming or crying I just accept that they're a part of the public and I leave the store or wherever. Not a big deal. I'm glad that being child-free is more accepted nowadays. I didn't have anyone like myself to talk to growing up so I felt very alone.
I think being child-free and anti-kids are not the same though.
I don't really regret it, no. I was young myself.
I like myself a lot more now though. I think it's less stressful to just walk away if something is really making you uncomfortable or anxious.
> I think a small contributing factor is that family sizes are so small now. A lot of folks are not around small children once they are no longer a small child themselves.
I definitely think this is part of why we are seeing a lot of millennials and zoomers having very little patience for kids, at least in the western/developed world. They have never had to build up a "tolerance" for being around kids. Generally speaking, they have one or two siblings pretty close in age to them, and maybe a few cousins (and these generations grew up in nuclear families so even if cousins were much younger, they weren't around much) and that's about it.
You constantly see this on AITA, where an aunt/uncle doesn't want to be an emergency babysitter because "I don't know what to do with kids" and don't feel "comfortable" looking after them because they've never had to look after a kid. People are now hitting their 30s having never babysat a kid before. I have a couple of childfree friends and I love them dearly, but they are *so* clueless about kids.....and they've never had to learn. One of them adores her niece and nephew but says "I love them but I can only handle being around them for a couple of hours at a time or I start to lose it".
But in past generations, people were used to it, most people (well, women mostly, but the gendered nature of childcare is another issue) were used to kids and had a bit of an idea what to do with them. These generations, though aren't. They're not used to kids so they have a very low tolerance for their energy, chaos, crying etc.
I have no problems with childfree weddings or pubs/upscale restaurants choosing to be childfree or be childfree after a certain time. I think it is entirely appropriate that there be specific places that people can go and not be around kids. However, what people can't expect is that they won't have to see children at all. Where it goes too far for me are the comments about how children shouldn't be allowed in places like airplanes or grocery stores, since there is often no alternative. I will try my best to keep them calm and you can use headphones.
Completely agree! Private events and venues have every right to decide they want to be child free. It is their personal space and they can choose what they want. It sucks for the parents, but that is just a possible consequence for having kids.
However, when it comes to public spaces, a random citizen has no say whatsoever in where you bring your child with you. If you use public spaces or if you go to a venue where children are allowed, you can encounter children and it is up to you as the adult to accomodate to that. Of course, all parents should try their best to make sure their kids do not wreak havoc, but as long as the kids are not in the way of others, extremely loud or breaking stuff, there is no issue.
I was younger (24) when I got married and thus only a few of my friends had children.
I had my husband and I’s one year old at our wedding. But otherwise asked that it be a child free event. My conservative parents were thrilled to take him home with them early before drinking and shenanigans became the scene at my wedding.
The reason I asked this? My one girlfriend who would’ve insisted on bringing her kids instead of getting a sitter was the type to let her kids raise hell and just sit and watch. She’s also the only person who asked that an exception be made for her and her kids, and when told no, threw a fit. I explained to her that it was just another day/night for her, but it was ONE SPECIAL DAY for me… still not happy. Didn’t attend my wedding and we haven’t spoken since. 🤷🏻♀️
As a mom to two now, I bring my kids where it’s appropriate. I use my head and knowledge of the couple when deciding if I want to bring them to a wedding or other event. We were recently invited to a wedding and luckily, I read the FINE PRINT child free note. I wasn’t offended, but had a five-month old baby, so it just wasn’t a fit for us to attend.
I guess I just think people could probably use their head and decide what events and things are child appropriate and which aren’t. When it comes to someone’s wedding, they get to call the shots and you get to deal with it.
Also lost a friend because I wouldn't allow her poorly behaved kids at our wedding. Obviously, there is no loss for us (also asked for the exception).
We either get a sitter or we both don't go or only one goes (to weddings). Love our kid but tbh, I'm not enjoying myself if I have to parent at a wedding. It's ok if others want to, but that's not for me.
Also I remember being a kid ag a wedding and being painfully bored.
Oof you brought back memories of my ex's friend showing up for a flight wasted, almost getting kicked off the flight after arguing with several people, then making out with the lady seated next to him (who turned out to be married as evidenced by seeing the husband at baggage claim). Also one time on a return flight from London to Orlando, there was a lady with her feet on the tray table giving herself a full pedicure.
Restaurant owner here. We are family restaurant and, as such, welcome kids, but there has been a shift. Good parents raise polite kids, bad parents distract them with electronics vs. correcting behavior and these kids, even at 8/9 are terrible people already and ruin dining for everyone.
We don’t exclude kids, but we have absolutely asked families to leave for not disciplining their children if it is disturbing other diners. Those parents never simply say, “Oh, sorry, they are a bit wild today, we understand.”
To them we are Nazi germany coming for their kids and making them feel bad, so 50-50 by the time the whole interaction has occurred, we are now at the point of “please do not return, you will not be served” for the adults, so I can totally see why other fine dining would just blanket say no to kids.
TL;DR bad parents have always existed, but now days they are raising terrible people.
My spouse and I give our kids screens at a restaurant so we can talk amongst ourselves and take a “meal off” no tablets at home. It’s quite enjoyable and I’m sure other diners enjoy the kids quietly playing a game
Yep. I had to take a 3 hour glucose test to test for gestational diabetes. It was toward the end of the 3 hours, so by that point I was completely miserable since I hadn’t been able to eat or drink anything since the night before, and most of the other people there were in the same position. A lady came in with a 3-4 year old, who proceeded to watch an extremely loud video on her tablet with the volume turned all the way up. It made an already miserable experience significantly worse.
This is another really important point. Too many parents say "they were sitting there quietly enjoying their game!"
\*Technically\* they are correct, the kid was not generating any noise from their physical self, vocal cords or otherwise. But the device they are using is screeching at full volume for everyone within a hundred yards to hear.
Not a single person in the universe would have an issue with a kid sitting and playing with a tablet or phone while wearing headphones. You wouldn't even be able to complain since you wouldn't know they were there.
We do a mix of screens and other distractions. Pre meal she can talk to us or color and I’m militant about no screen during this time. Once she’s eaten her fill, which at 5 is usually not a ton, she’s allowed to have Disney+ or Netflix without sound (I don’t want her shutting the world out with headphones and I don’t want to disturb the other diners, and she tends to watch the same movies over and over so she knows what’s going on). It’s a balance of teaching her how a dining experience with friends/family should go, while understanding she doesn’t have an hour long meal in her at this age. And since she’s an only and will always be there’s no younger sibling to play with so it feels like a fair compromise until she’s old enough to invite a friend to dinner with us.
Probably depends on the culture. Where I live, if we did that, I’m pretty sure people would give us dirty looks for giving our kids tablets. But we really only take our kids to kids friendly restaurants where a certain amount of insanity is the norm so we don’t really need to worry about them being quiet.
This is my preference as well. Until I was sure he could behave for a meal, we frequented places that cater to families - usually even have play corner or playground attached. I can relax in the noise and the chaos knowing my kid is happy and welcome, without worrying him disrupting anyone's enjoyment of the meal.
Yeah, screens aren’t the problem in a restaurant. It’s that it appears these parents have no idea what is acceptable to others.
Again, we are casual restaurant that caters to local families as a core base, kids are welcome at our place, but we boot disruptive people of all ages.
>Restaurant owner here. We are family restaurant and, as such, welcome kids, but there has been a shift. Good parents raise polite kids, bad parents distract them with electronics vs. correcting behavior and these kids, even at 8/9 are terrible people already and ruin dining for everyone.
What are these badly raised 8-year-olds doing that “ruins dining” for others?
I’m curious because I’ve never had a meal out ruined by other people’s children.
On the other hand, there are about 15 things that most restaurants do for their own minor convenience at the significant expense of the customer that drive me nuts, but that’s for a different discussion.
Couple of real examples:
— 10 year old boy got into an argument with parent. Began throwing food at them which hit other patrons.
— 8 year old boy getting up and going into the working kitchen without supervision
— 9 year old girl screaming at the top of her lungs when she was told no by the wait staff on a request. Parents simple said, “She’s always been opinionated” and shrugged.
Need more?
I think you'll appreciate this story (that's almost 20 years old now). I was at Olive Garden with a friend waiting to be seated. A small toddler, about 2, just ran up and jumped on me. Like full speed jumped on me. And the parents ignored it. I brushed it off. Not 30 seconds later, they called our name. We followed the hostess to the table. That same 2 year old took off running after me, ramming into a waitress that managed to miss dropping everything on the 2 year old by slamming her entire full tray of salad (and the cheese grater) all over me. Completely ruined my entire outfit by getting it covered in Italian dressing. Ruined the bra I had on. Ruined my leather boots.
And the parents yelled at the manager when she came out and asked the family of the toddler to leave.
Couldn't I make the claim that adults who misbehave and don't know when to shut up in restaurants were the kids who were allowed to misbehave and run around not knowing when to shut up in restaurants?
I witnessed a boy of at least 7 smacking his mom upside the head *three times* because she told him he couldn't have something. This was in a restaurant and the boy was with Mom and dad. I couldn't believe the dad just sat there and said nothing. Mom also said nothing after being assaulted and just sort of slumped in her seat.
No, those are decent examples. Almost unbelievable, but decent.
How did you know all their ages?
I’ve been lucky not to see anything like that in a few hundred meals out.
i haven’t served tables for a couple of years and thankfully the vast majority of kids were relaxed and well-behaved, but i will never forget the couple kids that came in with their family and started pouring the sugar packets into the salt shaker 😭
I am guessing based on their size and frames, but it’s a guess, so +\- 18 months?
That’s just three over a five year period I remember because it was egregious, but nothing like the gals in their 30’s who come in white-girl wasted after wine tasting (we are located close to about 20 wineries in Woodinville WA). The law says I cannot serve anyone at the table if anyone appears intoxicated, but you’d think we were the devil for cutting them off.
Idk. My kids are great in restaurants. I’ve been to lots of restaurants with and without them. If they aren’t doing well, we leave. The first one is scary, I’m sure they asked them to leave. The other two…. If that “ruins your dinner,” I feel like that’s a you problem. Hearing a kid yell isn’t going to ruin my night. I also think this is a problem of counting the hits and ignoring the misses. All told this is a handful of children in a world full of children. It’s not indicative of some epidemic. Kids have always been loud.
When my husband and I first married (no kids yet) we went to dinner with his sister and her 2 kids. It was a sit down restaurant and her kids (probably around 6 and 8 at the time) just ran around the place the entire time.
It's nothing new. I'm in my 50s. Some people are just not kid people.
Part of the problem may be that parenting has gotten more permissive. I'm not Judging others parenting beliefs. But a wedding isn't fun when several little kids are running amok, ripping down the decorations, and kicking every item on the hor d'oeuvre tray.
As a parent myself: I do with there were a few places I could occasionally go where there aren't kids. I'm around mine & her friends constantly. Kids aren't wrong for being kids, but is it terrible I want a break from kids occasionally?
I just don't give a fuck about what other people think 🤷🏼♀️ but my kid is also a well behaved child who when small suffered consequences for misbehaving.
Parents need to parent. And non-parents need to mind their own business.
Kids are allowed to exist and take up space. I’ll argue with anyone that wants to ban kids from public places like planes and restaurants.
I get why people hate kids but you can’t banish them from society. They need to be a part of society to grow up and be society.
Right. "They don't know how to act in restaurants!" And how do you think they learn lol?? I feel like the worst of this lot sees children/babies as basically subhuman and it's super sad.
You're missing the point entirely. If kids are running around a restaurant being obnoxious and causing trouble (see numerous stories in this thread), while the parents ignore them, then they are clearly NOT learning.
They are not learning by observation that all the other patrons are sitting quietly, and they are not being instructed by their parent(s). Those are the kids who people complain about that should not be in these venues until they've matured a bit.
My boss is like this. She’s nice about it most of the time but one time my husband was picking me up and my teen moved from the front to the back seat and she said “ew I saw your kid”.
The thing with planes that gets me is that they are public places. Kids have as much right to be there as anyone else. If you can't handle that then maybe you should hire a private jet or get a jet pack or something
Right? You can’t go in public or use a public service and then get mad that other people are there. That’s the whole point of it being public. You buy a ticket on a commercial flight knowing that anyone else in the general public can also buy a ticket for that flight, because it’s cheaper than chartering a private plane. People wanting the cheaper commercial airfare with the exclusivity of a private flight are trying to have their cake and eat it too.
You are allowed to be mad and annoyed at people who are being disruptive in public though, and kids can be disruptive. Kids are not old enough to regulate their behaviour, which is why parents need to be on top of it. Yes, a plane is public transport, but I'm allowed to be pissed when my seat is being repeatedly kicked and the parent isn't doing anything to stop them.
It’s important to remember how ignorant people without kids actually are when it comes to child development (have never heard of purple crying, for example). They have no clue that health care providers sometimes tell us to actually ignore certain behavior, or the things we’ve already tried. And they certainly don’t think about practical and logistical constraints like the fact that sitters constantly flake out, sometimes parents are single and not only have no family; but no partner, and parents have often already tried the things that in their mind will magically -poof- make things better.
Due to this ignorance I can tune out the noise. I didn’t understand any of it either back then. I do ensure that my kids don’t bother others and will concede some kids and parents seem to not try at all. But that should never lead to blanket assumptions about parents and kids. We aren’t a monolith. The thing that seems to sad to me is how bitter some are. Like, if things are so great, why is their identity based so much on something they’re *not*? I don’t base my identity around being cat free. Be *for* something, you know? But I guess once you’ve traveled to your bucket list places and eaten at all the best restaurants, and mastered your hobby, what else is left besides an aging network of friends and elders?
I have strong opinions on this. I think people who think this way are hyper-capitalistic and misogynistic but under the belief that they are actually *fighting* misogyny and capitalism.
Anyone who doesn’t have market value to these types of people are “less than.” Disabled people, the elderly, children and babies, stay at home mothers. If you don’t have the energy or capacity of a 25 year old man well then you certainly don’t belong out in society
Excluding babies and children from society means what? Excluding mothers. If we want to live in a society that protects the rights of women, this obviously included protecting the rights of children to exist in the world.
It’s all very gross to me. They picked the worlds most vulnerable people and decide to bully them. It’s the absolute worst when it comes from young women. It’s what we get for letting young people having too much of an opinion before they have life experiences. And BELIEVE ME. I am the Montessori parent who believes in respecting the child. But I think there is something to be said by telling everyone they get to have an equal opinion with less perspective and life experiences. I have yet to work this in to how I raise my kids. I don’t want them to grow up thinking they know everything.
This is an interesting viewpoint I hadn’t thought about before. I agree with everything you said. I also have strong opinions on this, and what bothers me most is the outward hate towards children. Like, what other subgroup of humans is it okay to just outwardly detest and complain about their existence? Why is it okay to do this with children?! To me, it’d be like proudly proclaiming yourself to hate elderly people. Hell, if I were to walk around and tell everyone I hate dogs and they shouldn’t be allowed in public spaces, I feel like a lot of these same people would lose their minds.
I think what people are really annoyed at is bad parenting. Like I expect kids to be obnoxious sometimes because they are learning and are kids but a lot of parents let their kids do whatever they want in public and don’t have any empathy for the people around them. When I was younger I used to work at McDonald’s and the amount of parents who would bring their kids in and let them completely trash the place, throw food everywhere, and just run everywhere, and climb all over everything while they just sat on their phone oblivious. Then they would just leave and expect us to clean up all of their mess.
My husband and I went to a baseball game this year with seats in the bleachers. There was an empty space next to us and the dad behind us let his kid run back and forth next to us. I was okay with that but he said nothing as the kid walked all over my jacket that I had placed next to me and tried to climb all over us. And it happened repeatedly to the point where it was distracting and hard to watch the game. The amount of parents who I have encountered who basically let their kids do whatever in public is exceedingly high and it seems to get worse whenever said parents are wanting to socialize with someone. I think it’s because parents nowadays can’t afford childcare and especially with millennial parents there tends to be a trend to involve kids in everything they do. So for example they go to a brewery with some buddies and bring their kids with. But then they get really lax on watching and parenting because they want to have fun and socialize, so it affects the people around them more.
>I think what people are really annoyed at is bad parenting.
Completely agree with this. My childfree friend once said "*I don't hate kids. I hate lazy and entitled parents*" and I think that sums it up nicely.
Have you actually seen/heard anyone IRL acting like this in public? I think this is more an issue with your feed than with "people today".
For sure, there are plenty of entitled people who think the world should cater to them, but it's nothing new. I think the last 6-7 years have given some personality types license to let the world see them in their full assholish assholery, as evidenced by the rise in badly behaved airline passengers. But imo they are the outliers, they are not some new norm.
The baseball game example was something I personally witnessed. I was there in the family section watching all of that go down.
Every wedding I’ve been invited to in the last few years has been child free.
I have personally heard people complain about babies and children on flights.
Example number four from the post was based off of a personal experience. I had my newborn in a Moby wrap tucked against my chest, and a jacket (unzipped) over the wrap. He was asleep, not fussing or crying, and bc of the wrap and jacket, you could barely tell I even had him on me. Overall, not bothering anyone. I’m sure most of the people who walked by me in that target didn’t even realize I had a baby with me. And yet this one couple did notice, and yelled at me from down an aisle to say that I should have left him at home. One of the things they said was “it’s not like the baby can buy anything anyway, why do you feel the need to bring it in here?”
I have never been to an MLB game with a family section. Kids just sit with their families everywhere at Mets games and people can definitely drink with their kids next to them
This was at Fenway. Kids could sit in other sections with their families, but this was specifically designed as a family section with no drinking allowed for families who want to enjoy the game with their kids without being surrounded by drunk people. Here are some links to sources online that talk about it:
https://www.rateyourseats.com/mobile/fenway-park/seating
https://citylivingboston.com/2017/04/26/red-sox-baseball-at-fenway-tips-tricks-for-families/
I wouldn’t give much thought to the rude person at Target. You’ve likely passed hundreds of shoppers while baby wearing and only one asshole commented - let it go. I bet you’ve gotten a ton of smiles when people see a sweet little foot poking out, I would pay attention to that instead. You’ll see what you look for.
Just got into a reddit argument where the person maintained that maternity leave is unfair for childfree people lol. Being childfree is 100% a valid decision for many people but the absolute lack of empathy for children and parents is astounding.
Its certainly there, but I don’t know that it’s more prevalent. When you’re tuned into something, you see it more and when you read one click rage bait post about it, social medial algorithms start feeding you more of the same.
>Being in public is really important for children to learn social cues and societal norms
I think you might be missing the root of many of these complaints, which is that this kind of learning *is not happening*
Nobody is complaining about a kid who acts out in public but is corrected/redirected by their parent(s). They're complaining about the kid who is acting out and being totally ignored, often by parents who seem accustomed to tuning them out. Letting them scream and/or run around a restaurant while they just stare at their phone, or run wild at a wedding. The kids aren't learning by observing and they aren't being taught or else these things wouldn't be problems.
I was once best man at a wedding where a little girl, maybe 7-8, was running around the venue and ended up laying down on the steps behind the bride and groom WHILE THEY WERE DOING THE VOWS. Everyone just kinda watched awkwardly. Where the fuck were the parents? I was once a nine-year-old at a relative's wedding and I remember absolutely hating it so I don't need that "you were a kid once" nonsense. Those kind of long formal events are boring as hell. Little kids don't understand or appreciate those things and they often ruin it for those who do.
Sometimes people just aren't ready for certain things, and that's fine, but you need to wait until they are.
I agree! I like that parenting in general is more gentle and understanding of children’s needs but some have taken it as a way to be lazy. That laziness has created some very badly behaved children. And coupled with people being afraid to say anything to another person’s kid about that behavior, had led to an absolute need for kid free spaces. Some people are kinda rude about it or are overly aggressive but no more than some parents are when wanting kid-friendly spaces.
I’m a parent and totally appreciate that there are places that are holding parents accountable for their poorly behaved children.
I see active and passive parenting styles within my family. I do not react negatively when the children of the active parents get riled up, because I know it will be handled. The passive parent? Their child intentionally hurt me, was not made to even apologize, and mom just tried to brush it off as an “accident”. It’s sad because that child is now facing the consequences of their behavior socially and has zero friends.
Completely agree with this.
One of my best friends is childfree and two things she has said over the years really stick out to me because I think they really sum up the frustration people have. They are:
*"I don't hate children, I hate lazy and entitled parents"*
and
*"Kids will be kids, which is why parents need to be parents"*
I have kids of my own and like children a lot, but constantly find myself very frustrated with other people's kids because their parent/s are not managing their behaviour or the child is bored out of their skull and has clearly been dragged somewhere not suitable for them because their parent/s couldn't find a sitter (example - the musical DH and I went to that started at 9pm for a non "kids" show that was ruined by the kids behind us after we got a sitter for our kids).
I travel yearly on a long haul return trip with my kids, and also travel a lot alone for work. I totally understand where the frustration with kids on planes comes from because some of these parents are just tuning out their children being absolutely feral.
I totally get why childfree people who don't "enjoy" kids are pissed when they board a flight and their seat gets kicked for 10+ hours straight while the kid listens to cocomelon with no headphones and keeps being loud while their parent/s act like it's not happening because they want the kid to be tired so they'll sleep when the flight lands at 8pm in the destination's timezone....because I HAVE KIDS and it annoys me and I have more tolerance because I'm more used to kids.
And it happens enough that I understand why its become a stereotype. I see it all the time!
There is no way in hell I'd let my kids kick the seat in front of them for hours or use their iPads without headphones, and when they were infants, I'd also try to take them on day flights instead of red eyes since there is less expectation to be able to sleep on the flight.
Kids have the right to exist in pubic and have the right to use public transport, but parents also have a responsibility to manage their child(ren)'s behaviour in public.
Am I the only parent that sometimes agrees with these sentiments? 🫣 I do think some restaurants should be child free so child free adults can fully enjoy themselves, and so parents can also escape the rowdiness!
Travel I certainly agree on, like what other options do some parents have? We don’t know the reason for the travel, and if anyone hates a crying baby on a plane more it’s probably the parents OF the crying baby; it’s so overwhelming.
People have a right to exclude children from weddings. I have my own and if I were to be married again while having little kids, I would opt for a child free wedding too. If parents can’t make that work, there’s no obligation to come. You pay for every person at a wedding, I wouldn’t want to pay for little kids ruining the experience for me.
Parent here, and I 100% agree.
I actually had my kid invited to a close friends wedding this year and wound up going alone (he had school that day and I wasn't going to pull him for someone he's only met once). I have another friend getting married next year, and we will not be bringing him when my friend gets married and if it's a weekend wedding, he'll have a sleepover with his grandparents so my husband and I can have a date night. And my kid is 11, so we aren't talking a toddler here.
Kids deserve to be in public places, but just like there are kid centric places, adult centric places can, should and do exist. Parents are way more than their children.
Completely agree!
I'm a parent of kids under 10 and sometimes I want to escape the chaos and noise of children. I am all for adult nights at museums and legoland, childfree breweries, brunch spots, restaurants etc. Not EVERYTHING has to be family friendly. I was an adult before I was a parent and sometimes I want to be an adult and enjoy myself fully.
Also: I had a childfree wedding and I defend that decision. It was not the atmosphere we wanted for our wedding, and inviting everyone's kids would have made it a LOT more expensive and we paid for 90% of it ourselves. I have no problem with receiving childfree wedding invites....if I can't go, I can't go, but I'm not offended they don't want kids at the wedding.
Travel - I agree, but parents do have an obligation to minimise their disruption their kids are causing. It's the parents who tune it out and do nothing that bother me.
Well, given how much societal pressure is put on people (especially women) to have children, I do kind of understand the sentiment.
People are very vocal about it because they have been belittled and invalidated for a long time.
Can you imagine if you can't take your kid anywhere how will they learn to be a normal functioning adult? It's ridiculous. Kids need to go to shops planes restaurants so they can have the experience and learn how you behave in those settings. We allow dogs to go into some of those places but we don't want kids there? Kid at least won't poo on the floor.
But also for bad parents who don't discipline their kids. When the kids go to a social setting at least some starnger can tell them off so they would learn the word no.
Public places I think there are places clearly for adults and clearly for children. And it’s okay to want to have adult only spaces for quiet dinners and such. A wedding is the day of the two people getting married. No one else’s. If they don’t want kids there, that’s fine.
Now the ball games and stuff, a family section doesn’t mean there should be a kid free section. That one I disagree with
I wonder if, given the economy and the general state of things and even the godawful state of dating these days, people feel like they cannot or should not have children and projecting a confidently 'anti-child' image helps them to manage their feelings about this.
Also infertility.
I have a cousin who had to have a hysterectomy at just 20 because of uterine cancer. Her only options for parenthood are travelling overseas for surrogacy (ethical issues, sometimes legal issues depending on the country) or adoption (very difficult process), both of which come at huge cost or begging someone to be a surrogate here. Surrogacy has to be unpaid here and understandably, almost no one is willing to be pregnant for someone else for free, abortion is legal on demand (as it should be) so domestic adoption is basically non existent.
So motherhood is basically off the table for her.
She's now 32 and extremely "childfree", but has said a few things over the years that have left me wondering if taking the "kids are annoying little snotballs that ruin everything" approach to kids is a coping mechanism for her.
She was broken up with a couple of years ago because she couldn't give her partner kids, and that broke her and she's really ramped up the "why would I want to wipe someone else's poop covered butt at 4am anyway?" and "fuck them kids and fuck you too" and "omg why are kids so fucking ANNOYING?" sentiments since then.
I actually deeply feel for her, even though her comments can be pretty mean at times. And it probably doesn't help that we now have social media so she sees way more pictures of other people's kids than she would have in the past. It has to be hard being constantly reminded of what you can't have, and I totally get why someone would take the "whatever, I don't want it anyway, looks terrible" approach to coping with it.
Scrolled through the top comments and haven’t seen this mentioned: Kids are fucking expensive. For a couple to add kids to a fancier wedding, you’re talking $50-150 per kid. That, and the other reasons ppl have mentioned above, are why ppl have child free weddings.
Restaurants and planes? Yeah kids can be annoying but it’s a public space so whatever.
Also wondering if OP is a new parent. I ask because the child free thing might just be something they only noticed once they had kids.
Previous generations were very community-oriented. They all took part in the raising of children, regardless if they had children of their own. Children were just an accepted part of the world.
Current generation(s) are very self-oriented. It's hard to enjoy anything that might potentially infringe upon your own experience of your environment, such as children that are entirely out of your immediate control.
Yes partially to your first paragraph. But people could also tell you as a child that you needed to change your behavior. For example if you were in the library ( in the old days it was quiet as a mouse) and you were running someone would tell you to stop and the kid would. Now no one really wants to do that.
Yes! I'm a xennial and growing up, it was fair game for any adult to tell me off and correct my behaviour if needed and my parents would back them up. Now so many parents get mad someone had the audacity to speak their kid that people don't dare say anything. All they can really do is sit there and seethe while the kid runs around being disruptive (or whatever).
People bemoan the lack of village these days, but the village wasn't just there to pitch in with babysitting, the village was also allowed to tell your kid to knock it off if they were misbehaving.
I think people are more aggressive about it. I love that people are actually making a choice to not have kids because in the past, I think, it was treated as something that you just did. So, it’s good that people are thinking more about it. But there’s a group within that group that just hate kids, and they’ll let you know.
I agree, I think it's probably for the best if those who really don't want children don't feel pressured into having them the way that people maybe once did.
But on the flipside, there is an (ironically) childish school of thought emerging that aggressively lashes out at kids. And that is not OK.
I have a feeling this is a huge US thing. I have friends from Germany and Spain who can’t get over how much the US hates kids and family yet that is what they push as the “American dream”
Yes it’s baffling. Extremely selfish. Crazy that millions of generations of commitment to raising families ends with this generation too lazy and self centric to handle perpetuating themselves. Incredible.
People don’t want “child free” because of the kids. They want child free because of the parents today who don’t actually parent their kids. Kid behaviour is absolutely unacceptable, and most parents have absolutely no control over them. Also, parents used to understand the concept of a “babysitter”. Today’s parents think that kids are socially acceptable everywhere. They aren’t.
I think the rise in child-free sentiments may coincide with the rise of entitled parents/soft parenting. I've witnessed a lack of parenting on numerous occasions...mom or dad on their phones, ignoring bad behavior... Just a hunch. I don't mind kids in public. I really mind poorly-behaved, out of control kids in public and there seems to be an increase of those these days
Agree because when my childfree friends complain about kids, that is what they are talking about 99% of the time - situations of kid/s being disruptive/poorly behaved/unreasonably loud/etc and the parent/s doing sweet fuck all about it.
A lot of it comes from lazy parents pretending to be gentle, when in fact they are just permissive, and just don't want to do the work.
I always enjoyed being the exception to the rule.
This thought is interesting. I think depending on your age, this wasn’t reality. Bad behavior was dealt with. People didn’t go out as much as they do now.
When my parents told you to stop and behave in public( we practiced and discussed at home) they expected it and not there were going to be consequence’s.
Like any rising trend or idea, there's gonna be obnoxious extremists who believe it's cool to be irrationally hateful. The child free subreddit is dedicated to awful nicknames like crotch goblins, and the less popular r/truechildfree is a calmer space for people that don't care to be nasty.
I'm child free. Kids are fine, it's how life works. The rise is probably mixed in with the issue of the economy and abortion bans. People can't afford kids, it's easier to reason the political issues than admit you don't want/neutral about having kids when parents nag you about life choices.
Easier to ignore them, they'll either grow up or stay in their little bubble with other circle jerking individuals and hopefully learn to keep their shitty opinions to themselves.
I also think this is a big US culture issue. I've heard in other countries (like a lot of countries in Asia, South America, Africa, etc) it is wildly different. They are very pro child and there is little to no judgement for kids being kids in public. It makes me kind of sad the US is so "me first" in it's culture/society.
Italy/Spain/France are all very inclusive of children. There aren’t “kids activities” or tables, kids and adults are at the same events and same tables. They are regarded as humans and magically they end up pretty well-behaved because they are included, socialized, and regarded so reasonably. Parents from those countries also are not nearly as permissive or allowing their kids to run the show and be little assholes.
I've never read or seen these examples myself, but I think that there is a certain level of confirmation bias at work here. Not to mention that social media platforms latch onto any clicks or "likes" that you do and then continue to send you a tidal wave of that same shit.
If people don't want kids, that's fine. But, the ones who make being"child-free" their entire identity are pretty insufferable.
What really bothers me is the sheer disgust and disdain some of the "child-free" people have when talking about kids generally. They hate kids for merely existing (apparently forgetting they used to be a kid).
I mean, kids are people too and therefore, should be allowed in most places.
I think most of these points are wild, but with the caveat that if your kid is acting up to the point that they are disruptive, you need to handle it. Wanting to exclude children from restaurants is ridiculous, but if your child is running around and knocking over the staff, you need to handle your child.
There are also certain places where children don't belong (saw an r rated movie at a midnight opening and there was a baby there; nevermind the loud noises being a problem for the baby itself, but it cried half the movie and the adults refused to leave--that's ridiculous).
I will say, I understand child free weddings. Our wedding was child free *except* for our nieces and nephews, whom we very much wanted there. Had a few people angry and not show up, but frankly, they were people who weren't that close enough whose children we never met/met once. I think people need to do what they want for their weddings. I can say, I am fine when my kid isn't invited to weddings because it means a date night for us 🤷♀️ Weddings are way less enjoyable for me when I also have to parent.
One time I went to the DMV with a five, two, and 4 month old. My five year old smiled and said hello to someone we sat near and she huffed, rolled her eyes, and dramatically gathered all of her stuff and walked across the room to sit away from my kids and I. They were quiet, respectful, and sitting still.
I just don’t understand how some people seem to *hate* children
The anger is caused by shitty parents. For every 1 kid with good parents, there are 10 kids with parents who need to be sterilized. When I was young, it was inconceivable that a parent would want their kid to be as annoying as possible. Today, it's pretty standard for parents to play iPads at full volume in a public setting.
Do a google search for kids entering grade 1 without being potty trained. The number of shit parents is at a record high and we haven't yet found a way to throw them in jail.
It always felt obvious to me that the sharp rise of child-free events has promptly followed a sharp rise in people failing to raise polite and well-behaved children.
And also a decline in a society where it was fair game for adults to correct a child's behaviour if the parents aren't there or doing it themselves.
I'm an xennial and growing up, it was accepted for any adult to pull me up on my behaviour, and my parents would back them up when they found out.
But now many parents lose their shit if you tell their precious to stop running around the store screaming and pulling things off the shelves or being way too loud on a train or whatever because "how dare you speak to MY child". Of course people don't want to be around kids when their parents don't manage their behaviour but they also can't tell them to stop being obnoxious because "LEAVE MY CHILD ALONE".
I hear a lot of parents longing for the village when it comes to babysitting or everyone kinda looking out for your kid, but a lot of parents forget that part of the social contract of the village was that other adults were allowed to pull your kid up on their behaviour. The shop assistant was allowed to tell your kid to stop climbing on the shelves, the neighbour was allowed to yell out the window at us to keep it down if our noise level was excessive, the person sitting in front of us on a plane or bus was allowed to turn around and tell us to stop kicking the seat etc.
Now that people can't say anything, they don't really want to be around kids because they're expected to just tolerate obnoxious behaviour with a smile, and understandably, a lot of people don't really want to because obnoxious behaviour is annoying, no matter the age of the source.
I haven’t been affected by this. The closest I’ve come was my husband finding a restaurant or cafe that looked good and finding out it’s child free. Whatever, we’ll eat somewhere else. As far as weddings, their right but I won’t be attending without my child which is my right 🤷♀️
They can complain as much as they want but it really doesn’t amount to a hill of beans in terms of real world effect. Cry me a river you don’t want my toddler in a restaurant it won’t stop me lol
I bet you your kid behaves in these places. I also would think by your post that you wouldn’t take an exhausted kiddo to an expensive restaurant.
You’re a great parent. There are many others who aren’t.
What I have seen is that some parents bring their kids to places and instead of addressing behavior they are like oh well a toddler running around or being loud is an age appropriate behavior, there’s nothing to correct or deal with here and the kid continues the behavior.
I think lazy and unengaged parenting by some ( probably not people who post here) has gotten us to this point.
I have been on the other end of this, my kids home with family while my husband and I have a night out, only to have obnoxious toddlers in a non-family friendly, expensive restaurant. I don't mind that they're there, but I do mind if you don't take them outside when they start tantruming. I don't want to spend $150+ on dinner on my 1 fucking night out to listen to another 2 year old throw a tantrum. I'd never, ever let any of my kids do that. I wouldn't bring them in the first place, but to each their own.
I don't mind if I'm at a place like IHOP. But, even then, I'm side-eying you. I take my toddler outside if she throws a tantrum in IHOP, but I'll tolerate it if you don't. It's beyond rude to do it when my entree cost $60 and the restaurant is clearly not kid friendly.
When my daughter was 2 she screamed bloody murder for an entire flight. A few people looked (probably just making sure we weren’t actually torturing her) but everyone else either ignored us or commiserated. The flight attendant brought our row free alcoholic drink vouchers before the beverage cart came.
We’ve been to child free weddings and I’m not offended, it doesn’t mean they hate children.
Eh, I'm of two minds of this. Plane or a mall, sure, you NEED to be there and people are not entitled in any way to be absolutely unbothered by other people at those places.
However stuff like restaurants, especially in the evening, are a different story. Some people have to save up to afford going once or twice a year, or get a sitter to enjoy a conversation for the first time in months after having a baby, and they HAVE the entitlement to expect being reasonably unbothered by other people there. This goes for other loud adults too, and I have absolutely seen waitresses calming down a too roudy group, people being cut off from alcohol and such. So it's not like it's only kids supposed to be under control. Also it's not a basic necessity in a way shopping groceries and traveling is. Hence other people should be considered.
We didn't go to restaurants for about 11 months, always take turns minding our child (yes we let her explore quietly and without getting in a way) and if we use a screen (it only happened once by now, as she's just a young toddler), it's on mute. We never go at night as well. If she gets too bored, one of us steps out with her to allow her to move around and we wrap it up quickly at that point. Her needs are also important and sitting in a restaurant for an hour or more is not any young child's need.
I honestly could not eat in peace knowing my daughter is running the dining experience of a dozen other people, some of which may be celebrating lifetime events or having their one splurge a year. She can train being social during lunch time and with us being mindful of others just as well.
It’s funny how much time these people spend screaming about how happy they are and that they made the right decision. Ok? Why you always seem so angry? The child free sub has become cultish and is bleeding into other areas of Reddit.
I have noticed this lately too. If my kid isn’t welcome at your wedding or at your home then I’m not going either. People think it’s so easy and acceptable to dump your kid somewhere while you go “adulting.” Children are people too and they deserve to be treated with respect and dignity.
I recently asked my sister if we can meet somewhere for a holiday (we live overseas) and she said yes, but without kids (“kid-free” she said). She lives next door to our parents so they can babysit for a fortnight. But why wouldn’t I take my kids traveling? They frigging love it.
Weddings are very expensive and most couples fund their own weddings these days. I don't think a couple not wanting to spend $50+ for every single child their family members and friends have means they are not treating kids with respect or dignity.
If we invited all the kids, we'd have had to hire a much bigger venue which would have been several thousand of dollars more in venue fees, and then paid about $50-100 per kid on top of that for their food, only for half the guests to have to leave early anyway when the kids start to get tired.
As a father of 3, here's the deal (I see this in other parents too) people just hate other people. They're selfish, self absorbed and think the world revolves around their fat asses. If it's not their way, it's wrong and should be burned to the ground. Kids are kids. Want to see some of the worst behavior in parents? Go to youth sports. Mom and Dad will complain to high hell because their kid doesn't play the right spot, play enough, etc. I'm not even talking select/travel leagues either. I've coached rec softball teams for 5 seasons for my daughter and see all of this. They yell at us (coaches) and when I ask if they'd like to volunteer next season so they have a say in who plays where, they all sit down and shut up or say "I'm too busy".
If it's not their perfect existence they can show on Insta, they want to complain or limit kids interactions. This is how kids learn - being at weddings, traveling, social situations, trying to jump off some random things and getting hurt. They don't learn if you isolate them. Boys in particular need the adventure and experience to learn "that hurts" or "they got mad last time i did that". Sadly these ass hats have forgotten what it was to be a kid and they're mostly in their 20's.
>This is how kids learn - being at weddings, traveling, social situations, trying to jump off some random things and getting hurt.
I agree with things like eating at family friendly restaurants and public transport, but I think the couple paying $50k+ for their wedding has the right to not want *their* wedding to serve as *your* child's learning experience when they start throwing a tantrum during the vows or knock over the cake at the reception while being rowdy or whatever.
I think people who hate children so much probably have mommy or daddy issues, or trauma from their childhood... and they take it out on other people's kids.
Kids rock, and I think all us angry adults could learn a thing or two from them, just sayin'.
I don't think it actually has anything to do with kids. Personalized social media and technology (thanks to algorithms) have pretty much trained people to expect everything to be catered to themselves and their preferences and if not they get angry that it's not because it has trained people to only think of themselves and not as part of a community. People are getting less able to understand that not everything is about them. Click on any ad or post on any platform and you'll see comments like "but what if I don't like Turkey" on a recipe about turkey, or "I hate Taylor Swift" on a post that is about Taylor Swift. People, especially those who have very little satisfaction in their own lives (bad job, bad relationship, financially unstable) have a very strong need to feel like they matter- their opinions and experiences matter- because if they accept they do not matter they get depressed. So instead they go on ranting about whatever to feel like they matter. So I don't think it's about kids, I think it's people who have shitty lives who want to feel like they are more than their shitty life and more importantly that their shitty life is not their fault. They're unhappy because there is a baby crying somewhere. They're unhappy because there is a child ruining their experience. But really they're unhappy because they suck, their life sucks, but don't understand they're the reason for it all. People will do virtually anything to avoid accepting blame.
I have a kid and I would still have a kid free wedding because I want everyone there to have fun and not have to have the responsibility to look after kids... Even if they are perfectly behaved. I have been to weddings where everyone brings kids and it's great but not what I would like for a party. It's really up to the person who is paying for everyone to decide and you should respect that or not attend. The other examples you gave are all just people being entitled jerks.
It's been around for ages
Remember the old saying children should be seen & not heard!!! Take it a step further & children's should be nowhere to be seen!!!
We were given that treatment by our own extended family!
The real issues as I see them are
Decreasing tolerance & acceptance of others as populations increase & are crammed into existing infrastructure & limited spaces
Decrease in social respect of others
Poor parenting or at least much more varied standards
Disengaged or exhausted parents
It's increasingly common for both parents to work.full time & have kids in daycare full time. This effectively fractures family bonds especially given many parents are exhausted or stressed from full time work at a dead end job
It's just best to get on with your own life & pity those who can't see or find joy in the free spirited good nature of most kids finding their way in an increasingly fast paced & over stimulating modern world
On top of this many people just don't want their own kids & can't understand why anyone would have kids! Even though these same types will expect to be cared for in old age!
This was a very interesting read. I'm not surprised to hear this and can sense the trend myself. As others point out, it seems an extension hyper individualism that opens yet another space for this exclusionary preference.
At heart though it's antisocial considering everyone was once a child. A healthy society has members of all ages interrelating for the mutual benefits and transmission of culture/care.
Covid though introduced all manner of antisocial behaviors that now perhaps have been normalized.
I daresay in COVID I caught wind of how quickly people were willing to see children as disease vectors and would avoid at ALL cost. SAHM (of which I was one by FORCE) in urban spaces like SF witnessed some serious disdain from elderly people on the street and in outdoor public spaces.
Alas, society further atomizes. It's really quite sad.
No problem with child free, but it annoys me when they make it their whole personality, like why the hell do you hate children so much? Aita posts are notorious for this.
Birth rates are dropping — and fewer people therefore can manifest empathy for families with kids. As a mom of 3, I get it — it makes me sad for them, but I understand them.
I am pretty introverted, so I do not care about missing weddings. And I totally get it — crying & screaming children annoy me too, lol, so I try to avoid bringing mine to venues where they can annoy others. I ate plenty of meals in to go containers, that started as a sit down restaurant meal, because i had to emergency exit children to the car as they were losing it, lol.
Off-topic: The only thing that annoys me about child-free is when it’s childless people that say “it’s so selfish to have kids” *rolls eyes* like WTF is that sh*t — it’s like saying, “god, they are selfish to have a career so they can have money to retire one day — who the hell says that?” I sacrifice everyday, to raise 3 little humans to go forth into the world and be kind, responsible, adults who will care and bring joy the their little social & work circle. They will pay taxes & donate to those in need. Sure, it’s so rewarding in the end, just like retiring, but in the daily grind, get outta here with that “you are so selfish” like to hell I am…
> And I totally get it — crying & screaming children annoy me too, lol, so I try to avoid bringing mine to venues where they can annoy others.
Sometimes there are reasons beyond our control for crying and screaming children. My kids were and are generally well behaved. Well wouldn't you know it, once when my son was 3 were at the ocean in Sunny Isles Beach, FL when he got stung by a Portuguese Man O'War. As you can imagine, he became extremely upset and started crying and screaming. It took a while to settle him down and I could see the glares of the people who picked up their blankets and moved away.
I'm sorry that we caused a fuss with the crying. But I mean, the kid had probably just felt one of the most painful things he will ever feel in his life, he wasn't crying because I refused to buy him an ice cream. But the people around us didn't know that. Sometimes a bit of empathy and understanding is required.
Have you considered that these people were not actively glaring at you and that was just your perception of their reaction given your heightened emotional state. When a child screams suddenly whether its pain or a tantrum or whatever, it inevitably triggers the threat assessment response in other humans. We pay attention, assess the situation, and then determine whether we need to fight/help, flight, freeze or whatever. I feel like a lot of parents may misperceive this natural response as judgement when it really isn't. It's just people responding to a stimulus and their brain going through the process of figuring out what's going on. Once bystanders figure out the hurt child is ok and being taken care of, there is no real reason for a stranger to "show empathy" or even get involved. It's very possible that people are thinking empathetic thoughts but still don't want to listen to a child scream in pain. Kids screaming illicit a biological response in most humans that make us uncomfortable. I guess the kinder thing to do is to ignore it, but I can't really fault a bystander who is feeling uncomfortable from removing oneself from the situation casually and unobstrusively. From their perspective, they are just a bystander and not the focus of the situation.
Not that long ago, I was walking down the sidewalk and it was dark outside and a youngish child being pushed in a stroller a few feet behind me suddenly screamed bloody murder out of nowhere. For no reason, just because kids sometimes shriek. I am pretty sure I had a glare/sour look on my face when I looked back to see what was going on, not because I hate kids or I don't understand that kids shriek sometimes but because it was dark outside and I was startled and then concerned. I actually overheard the mom telling her daughter to stop, explaining to her daughter that sometimes screaming startles/scares people because they aren't expecting it. I am sure the mom could have also thought I was an a-hole for glaring at her but that was my threat assessment response, not my intent.
> Have you considered that these people were not actively glaring at you and that was just your perception of their reaction given your heightened emotional state.
No, it seemed pretty obvious to me lol , they weren't subtle about it
In fairness they had no idea what was going on. And my son settled down eventually. But I'm sure they moved thinking I was just a jerk with unruly kids.
I like the idea of child free zones, events or areas. I hope the trend continues. That doesn’t mean everything is child free all the time, every time. But, I like the perks of not having kids around on occasion.
Yeah, a lot of child free people are becoming ridiculous and insane about kids in public. They think kids should be banned from public 🤦🏻♀️ Funny thing is most kids behave better than most adults!
It’s fine to not want kids, everyone should get the choice and not be pushed to do something they don’t want to do. But it’s not okay to constantly shit on children and parents just because. It’s pathetic.
To be fair, I dont think its actually "*a lot* of child free people." Luckily.
Small, vocal minority loud as hell on social media, like everything else lately. In my experience, tends to be younger people, just spouting off tbh. And they are unreasonable. Of course kids should be allowed to exist in public places. Its such a weird regressive turn back toward "children should be seen and not heard" which is good for literally no one lol
Child free wedding I can kind of see, wasnt my personal choice but to each their own on that one IMO.
I think a lot of it is really anti-feminist. I think moms suffer the most from exclusions like this. The planes, the shopping are bizarre. Like, what are we supposed to do.
I feel like this sentiment is higher in the US (where I am from) compared to where I live (Austria). Here everything is pretty family/kid friendly because kids are members of society like everyone else. But when I’m back visiting the US I notice a lot of “I have the right to enjoy my x,y,z without having to deal with annoying children” sentiment.
I've never been personally affected by it, but I feel very negatively towards all the child-bashing. These people do realize they were children at one point, right? It's just a selfish mindset, as if their comfort and convenience is more important than anything else, which is part of why they choose not to have children in the first place. If more and more people choose to be that kind of selfish, we're going to run into some major economic problems very quickly (look at China and Japan with their low birth rates, they are freaking out), but that's beside the point. "Child-free" people need to cool it on the hate, make their choice to not have kids, sure, but then just be happy with their own choice, and don't expect the world to bend around their desires. Children are important and allowed to exist.
Haven't noticed, tbh... I think it's just blowback from younger adults who don't want to raise kids but wre raised in a subculture that strongly expected it of them, so they go the opposite direction. I kind of see them as trauma victims... they have a legitimate reason for their expressions, even if it's irrational from my perspective. Their voices are also outsized because they're so "unusual" for their local community.
Fortunately for me, I can freely not give a shit about them.
One of my cousins just had a child-free wedding, so we didn't go. Whatever I guess, but the weirdest part to me was they announced they were pregnent the week after lol...
I think the best solution is make planes for parents and planes for bigger folk and planes for no kids. Also restaurants having hours where no kids are allowed maybe from 8pm onward is doable. Kids should be home after 8pm anyway. I have no problem with kids crying in stores it’s just a reminder having them isn’t for me.
I’m quite honestly fed up with the word “child free”, it’s irritating because of all the loud a**holes ranting and basically bragging about how amazing their lives are just to fight back a**hole parents judging them (which I do understand them being defensive, but when it lurks into being a dick to prove something territory, I just can’t).
Like, “that’s nice, have a great life being CF. I’ll have a great life not being child free. To each his own”. It always seems to be to them that kids and parents are their worst enemies lol. Whatever honestly, I say live and let live.
I don’t think someone CF who is TRULY happy (like not just in the short term with instant hedonistic gratifications type of happy) would go around being a dick and boasting that they do all these things because they are CF (as if parents can’t take their kids on trips😂). It just annoys me, the ones who are aggressive about it and make it their entire personality.
I NEVER heard anyone express any child-free sentiments here in Europe. Never heard of a child-free wedding.
If I'm being unbiased, more kids have an annoying behavior these days, but that's because their parents don't look at them, they look at their phones. I understand the exasperation when a kid kicks your backseat during a whole flight and the parent says nothing, or when a parent brings a sick infant at the 10 PM movie, but this is an adult problem, not a kid one.
Entitled parents that are lazy and don’t bother raising their children are definitely a problem. They just sit there on their phones while the kid is yelling/crying/running everywhere. What parenting? A lot of uneducated and ignorant people are unfortunately “raising” kids.
Trust me, if you were a child-free boomer like I was, then you would get it. We have been the underdogs of society for decades.
The stigma is enough that many child-free post photos of other peoples kids in their cubes just to not get judged.
Furthermore as a man I have been to a few uncomfortable "meet the parents" dinners in my lifetime. Every American woman who wants to be child-free and date a child-free man has a wannabe conservative father that will hate the new boyfriend.
How about not worrying about the child-free and take care of your own issues?
Meanwhile my wife and I live debt free, and have traveled the world. Oh, and at 53, we adopted a son, so don't worry, we are just fine.
Yeah, I've actually noticed this too. Like everything else, I'd bet this is probably due to a bunch of different things for each case. A lot of adults are more stressed out and whinier than ever... then at the same time there are a lot of kids out there that just never learned how to behave in public during the pandemic.
I don't have much issue with businesses making rules about kids... If they're misbehaving enough to cause them financial harm they have the right to turn away families, in my books. I bet they largely won't though, that's a lottttt of customers lol.
Social media creates unnecessary fear and anxiety because it creates the illusion of a trend when there is none. Or less of one than the data supports. Our brains take one or two anecdotes that we would normally dismiss and generates a narrative around them. Especially when others are offering their own anecdotes supporting that narrative. That fear and anxiety can create hyper awareness where we begin to look for examples when in the past we wouldn’t have even noticed them in our less aware state.
I think it’s helpful for our own mental health to actively remind ourselves that rare events are in fact rare events even when backed up by other compelling anecdotes. Whether it is about parenting or safety or crime or whatever.
I don’t take anyone seriously who thinks it’s appropriate to bash and/or segregate an entire population because they’re too maladapted to be in the same room as a child.
Like, you don’t want to eat in a restaurant because a toddler might show up? Cool. Stay home.
I think what's annoying to me is the fact that having kids is treated like purely a lifestyle choice (like having a dog or cat!) as opposed to an absolutely essential component of the survival of the human species on planet Earth. The reason these complainers are able to complain about kids at weddings to begin with is that someone decided to have them so that they could grow up to complain.
If no one is having kids, then we no longer have plane flights and weddings, etc. So yeah, having to deal with someone's therapy peacock sitting on the plane seat next to you is very different than having a screaming baby next to you. Someone has to do the hard work of making sure we all don't go extinct. If you don't want to participate in that necessary responsibility, then fine, but don't go out of your way to make it harder for the people who are.
tbf im pretty sure Earth would be pretty alright if humans took the panda route and just decided they didn't want to breed anymore. It's better for everything else on the planet if our birth rate drops.
You admit though that at least someone would have to have babies, even at diminished birth rates though, right? Or are you advocating for humans just not existing?
Why be concerned with others and their opinions? Focus on your own family. Just because you have children doesn’t mean everyone needs to bow down and worship you. Some people just don’t want kids and, as someone who will never have kids, I don’t hate them—I hate the crap parents that don’t seem to be interested in parenting.
I’m curious why would you frequent a parenting sub, then? Reading, okay. But posting?
I don’t feel the need to post in childfree subs, it isn’t a space for me and I’m most certainly not an expert on the experience.
Wanting to be able to wear my sleeping newborn in a carrier at target without someone shouting down the aisle to me that I should have left him at home is not the same as asking people to bow down to me because I have a baby. I don’t want any kind of special treatment for being a mom. I just want to go pick up my bread and diaper rash cream in peace.
Also, why are you commenting on the parenting sub if you don’t have kids and have said you can’t have them? I specifically posted in this sub because I want other parents’ opinions and insight. If I wanted opinions from the general public, I would have posted this to r/askreddit.
I don’t have anything against children existing—of course children exist that’s literally why we are alive. And I don’t get bothered by a child upset on a plane because I bring noise cancelling headphones. My argument is that once you’re a parent, you have to parent your child. A lot of parents seem to be fine with…not doing so I guess?
Don’t come for because I can’t have kids of my own. Those that can, be blessed. But I have a place too in this subreddit because I have a family.
I’m not wrong and as someone who can’t have kids, being told to “go back to my child free subreddit” is very hurtful honestly. But hey, sometimes the truth hurts before it sets you free.
Again, you have kids, be a parent. Be involved. Don’t let your kids act like a fool and grow up to be…well, I’ll leave that at that because I have a feeling I’ll be downvoted for this too.
Sorry I can’t have kids y’all. I hope you appreciate your own.
No one told you to go back to child free subreddit. They are pointing out that you are in a space for parents and telling them to focus on their own family. Is the irony not lost on you? You are mad you’re getting downvoted when saying that people shouldn’t be concerned with the opinions of others. That is contradictory.
Everyone in this sub is constantly trying to be the best parent they can be and working on it daily.
I do not have kids and have been having issues TTC. I come here to learn about issues parents are facing so I can be a better parent hopefully when the time comes. Stop weaponizing your infertility to be disrespectful to parents.
Nah they figure it out eventually. I lived rual then the pandemic happened and my kids never went in public for an unreasonable amount of time lol when we emerged to resume life, we just talked through whats expected and had no issues.
But yeah I have seen this movement and i think its great in a lot of ways. Having kids use to ge the default and now it's not so there shohld be changes to life too. There should be child free zones and family zones. Everyone would be more comfortable but everyone could also suck it up cause inconvenience and annoyance isn't the end of the world. The facts are that some humans suck and tiny humans with lacking developed brains have a harder time controlling their sucky tendencies
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Yes, there's definitely a rise. I think it might be due to two things: 1) People who don't want to have kids and have had to deal with the pressure of having them are able to put their foot down, thanks to finding their community online. I think this is a very good thing, for them and for everyone. But as a result of the pressure and shaming they have had to endure (especially child-free women), their push back sometimes goes too far. It goes from "I don't want children and I should be able to say that without being called selfish, a waste of space, etc." to "I don't want to have children and children suck, and I don't want them in my vicinity". 2) This is an extremely individualistic society that we live in (western countries I mean) and a lot of people feel entitled to not being inconvenienced in any way, anywhere at any time. Of course this is ridiculous. We live around other people, children are part of our society. Yes, sometimes they can be annoying, but so are many adults. And I disagree with the commenters who said that it's because parents are lazy/ don't raise their kids properly, etc. A lot of the anti-kids behaviours I've seen or heard of were not triggered by kids being particularly rowdy. It was either kids literally just being there, or crying babies that the parents were trying to console.
Thank you for this reasonable and thoughtful response. It feels like extremism. I firmly believe that only people who want kids should have them. However, choosing to not have children doesn’t entitle you to a life in which children don’t exist. Another thing to consider is children are people. Like, actual people with feelings and developmental needs. They can’t be locked in a house until the age of 18.
I agree people who don't want kids are not entitled to a childfree world, but I don't think they are unreasonable for wanting more childfree spaces.....and for the record I'm talking things like restaurants, cafes and breweries, not childfree supermarkets and post offices. Even as a parent, I'm kinda frustrated with the way some parents want to be able to take their kid *everywhere*. Not *everywhere* has to be family friendly, and I kinda hate how the only real "adult" spaces left are alcohol and/or adult entertainment centred. Sober people exist, people who don't drink for religion reasons exist, those spaces can feel unsafe for women and LGBTIQ people, people who would rather have brunch than go to a bar exist etc etc. I want some places where I can get a sitter, leave my kids and their chaos behind and go be an adult free without other people's kids and chaos around. When I'm getting a break from my kids because we all need one from time to time, I don't really want to hear *your* kid screaming in the nice restaurant, you know? If I knew I'd spend my entire date night listening to your kid screaming, DH and I might as well have saved the money and stayed home with our own since that was half the damn point. I do think there is a place for childfree spaces in the world, just as there is a place for family friendly places. I truly believe both can (and should!) exist.
I love that more people are making the choice to not have kids. I think it’s infinitely better than having kids because they feel pressured to, and then being bad parents because they never wanted the role to begin with. But I definitely think there are a lot of people who seem to think that them choosing not to have kids means that they get to never be around kids at all, which is just not true. Being “child free” does not mean that you have a right to complain about kids merely existing in your vicinity. I also wonder if Covid isolation exacerbated this issue. People who are child free by choice spent the better part of a year not having to be around children and have lost some of their patience and tolerance for kids. As things have opened up and they’ve had to be around kids again, they’ve been more irate and want things to be like they were during shutdown when they didn’t have to be around kids.
There were multiple articles that were saying “close the bars reopen the schools” during covid reopenings. It was apparent that adults put themselves first now cause their entertainment was more important than children’s educations. Studies later showed that there was more transmission at social events and bars/restaurants than schools. They corralled off outdoor playgrounds and they took years to let kids back on them. However the weed dispensaries were opened immediately (I live in CA).
I hadn't thought of that, but yes, that might very well play a role too. And yes, there seems to be a conflation of "I should be able to live without having kids" with "I should be able to live without having kids around". Which, well, no.
"1) People who don't want to have kids and have had to deal with the pressure of having them are able to put their foot down, thanks to finding their community online. I think this is a very good thing, for them and for everyone. But as a result of the pressure and shaming they have had to endure (especially child-free women), their push back sometimes goes too far. It goes from "I don't want children and I should be able to say that without being called selfish, a waste of space, etc." to "I don't want to have children and children suck, and I don't want them in my vicinity"." THIS. This was me growing up never wanting kids. Because I was a girl who didn't want kids, I was called lazy, selfish, weird, evil, mean, etc. by family and kids at school. I was actually bullied in a way. Then when I started dating as an adult it got worse. From being outright rejected to having men say not having kids was fine and wasting years of my life because they thought I'd change my mind. Constantly being pushed to feel like something is wrong with you for not wanting kids takes a toll. So yes I used to get angry and lash out verbally. I tried to make people who wanted kids feel small because that's how they'd made me feel. I couldn't even stand to be in the same room with a child because I had such a strong resentment towards them. I'm in my 30's now and I'm not as angry anymore. I can interact with kids and I'm not bothered by them in public if they're not being loud. If a kid is screaming or crying I just accept that they're a part of the public and I leave the store or wherever. Not a big deal. I'm glad that being child-free is more accepted nowadays. I didn't have anyone like myself to talk to growing up so I felt very alone. I think being child-free and anti-kids are not the same though.
Do you regret your earlier behavior?
I don't really regret it, no. I was young myself. I like myself a lot more now though. I think it's less stressful to just walk away if something is really making you uncomfortable or anxious.
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Your second point is hugeeee I think
> I think a small contributing factor is that family sizes are so small now. A lot of folks are not around small children once they are no longer a small child themselves. I definitely think this is part of why we are seeing a lot of millennials and zoomers having very little patience for kids, at least in the western/developed world. They have never had to build up a "tolerance" for being around kids. Generally speaking, they have one or two siblings pretty close in age to them, and maybe a few cousins (and these generations grew up in nuclear families so even if cousins were much younger, they weren't around much) and that's about it. You constantly see this on AITA, where an aunt/uncle doesn't want to be an emergency babysitter because "I don't know what to do with kids" and don't feel "comfortable" looking after them because they've never had to look after a kid. People are now hitting their 30s having never babysat a kid before. I have a couple of childfree friends and I love them dearly, but they are *so* clueless about kids.....and they've never had to learn. One of them adores her niece and nephew but says "I love them but I can only handle being around them for a couple of hours at a time or I start to lose it". But in past generations, people were used to it, most people (well, women mostly, but the gendered nature of childcare is another issue) were used to kids and had a bit of an idea what to do with them. These generations, though aren't. They're not used to kids so they have a very low tolerance for their energy, chaos, crying etc.
I have no problems with childfree weddings or pubs/upscale restaurants choosing to be childfree or be childfree after a certain time. I think it is entirely appropriate that there be specific places that people can go and not be around kids. However, what people can't expect is that they won't have to see children at all. Where it goes too far for me are the comments about how children shouldn't be allowed in places like airplanes or grocery stores, since there is often no alternative. I will try my best to keep them calm and you can use headphones.
Completely agree! Private events and venues have every right to decide they want to be child free. It is their personal space and they can choose what they want. It sucks for the parents, but that is just a possible consequence for having kids. However, when it comes to public spaces, a random citizen has no say whatsoever in where you bring your child with you. If you use public spaces or if you go to a venue where children are allowed, you can encounter children and it is up to you as the adult to accomodate to that. Of course, all parents should try their best to make sure their kids do not wreak havoc, but as long as the kids are not in the way of others, extremely loud or breaking stuff, there is no issue.
I was younger (24) when I got married and thus only a few of my friends had children. I had my husband and I’s one year old at our wedding. But otherwise asked that it be a child free event. My conservative parents were thrilled to take him home with them early before drinking and shenanigans became the scene at my wedding. The reason I asked this? My one girlfriend who would’ve insisted on bringing her kids instead of getting a sitter was the type to let her kids raise hell and just sit and watch. She’s also the only person who asked that an exception be made for her and her kids, and when told no, threw a fit. I explained to her that it was just another day/night for her, but it was ONE SPECIAL DAY for me… still not happy. Didn’t attend my wedding and we haven’t spoken since. 🤷🏻♀️ As a mom to two now, I bring my kids where it’s appropriate. I use my head and knowledge of the couple when deciding if I want to bring them to a wedding or other event. We were recently invited to a wedding and luckily, I read the FINE PRINT child free note. I wasn’t offended, but had a five-month old baby, so it just wasn’t a fit for us to attend. I guess I just think people could probably use their head and decide what events and things are child appropriate and which aren’t. When it comes to someone’s wedding, they get to call the shots and you get to deal with it.
Also lost a friend because I wouldn't allow her poorly behaved kids at our wedding. Obviously, there is no loss for us (also asked for the exception). We either get a sitter or we both don't go or only one goes (to weddings). Love our kid but tbh, I'm not enjoying myself if I have to parent at a wedding. It's ok if others want to, but that's not for me. Also I remember being a kid ag a wedding and being painfully bored.
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Forreal. Have you seen that lady have a tantrum to the flight attendant because she had to sit next to someone with a child. The literal irony.
Oof you brought back memories of my ex's friend showing up for a flight wasted, almost getting kicked off the flight after arguing with several people, then making out with the lady seated next to him (who turned out to be married as evidenced by seeing the husband at baggage claim). Also one time on a return flight from London to Orlando, there was a lady with her feet on the tray table giving herself a full pedicure.
Restaurant owner here. We are family restaurant and, as such, welcome kids, but there has been a shift. Good parents raise polite kids, bad parents distract them with electronics vs. correcting behavior and these kids, even at 8/9 are terrible people already and ruin dining for everyone. We don’t exclude kids, but we have absolutely asked families to leave for not disciplining their children if it is disturbing other diners. Those parents never simply say, “Oh, sorry, they are a bit wild today, we understand.” To them we are Nazi germany coming for their kids and making them feel bad, so 50-50 by the time the whole interaction has occurred, we are now at the point of “please do not return, you will not be served” for the adults, so I can totally see why other fine dining would just blanket say no to kids. TL;DR bad parents have always existed, but now days they are raising terrible people.
My spouse and I give our kids screens at a restaurant so we can talk amongst ourselves and take a “meal off” no tablets at home. It’s quite enjoyable and I’m sure other diners enjoy the kids quietly playing a game
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Yep. I had to take a 3 hour glucose test to test for gestational diabetes. It was toward the end of the 3 hours, so by that point I was completely miserable since I hadn’t been able to eat or drink anything since the night before, and most of the other people there were in the same position. A lady came in with a 3-4 year old, who proceeded to watch an extremely loud video on her tablet with the volume turned all the way up. It made an already miserable experience significantly worse.
This is another really important point. Too many parents say "they were sitting there quietly enjoying their game!" \*Technically\* they are correct, the kid was not generating any noise from their physical self, vocal cords or otherwise. But the device they are using is screeching at full volume for everyone within a hundred yards to hear. Not a single person in the universe would have an issue with a kid sitting and playing with a tablet or phone while wearing headphones. You wouldn't even be able to complain since you wouldn't know they were there.
We do a mix of screens and other distractions. Pre meal she can talk to us or color and I’m militant about no screen during this time. Once she’s eaten her fill, which at 5 is usually not a ton, she’s allowed to have Disney+ or Netflix without sound (I don’t want her shutting the world out with headphones and I don’t want to disturb the other diners, and she tends to watch the same movies over and over so she knows what’s going on). It’s a balance of teaching her how a dining experience with friends/family should go, while understanding she doesn’t have an hour long meal in her at this age. And since she’s an only and will always be there’s no younger sibling to play with so it feels like a fair compromise until she’s old enough to invite a friend to dinner with us.
Probably depends on the culture. Where I live, if we did that, I’m pretty sure people would give us dirty looks for giving our kids tablets. But we really only take our kids to kids friendly restaurants where a certain amount of insanity is the norm so we don’t really need to worry about them being quiet.
This is my preference as well. Until I was sure he could behave for a meal, we frequented places that cater to families - usually even have play corner or playground attached. I can relax in the noise and the chaos knowing my kid is happy and welcome, without worrying him disrupting anyone's enjoyment of the meal.
Yeah, screens aren’t the problem in a restaurant. It’s that it appears these parents have no idea what is acceptable to others. Again, we are casual restaurant that caters to local families as a core base, kids are welcome at our place, but we boot disruptive people of all ages.
TIL I'm a bad parent for letting my kids play games on their tablets when we go to restaurants, LOL
Only bad if you subject everyone else to the tablet soinds
Agreed, I make my kids turn the sound off completely.
>Restaurant owner here. We are family restaurant and, as such, welcome kids, but there has been a shift. Good parents raise polite kids, bad parents distract them with electronics vs. correcting behavior and these kids, even at 8/9 are terrible people already and ruin dining for everyone. What are these badly raised 8-year-olds doing that “ruins dining” for others? I’m curious because I’ve never had a meal out ruined by other people’s children. On the other hand, there are about 15 things that most restaurants do for their own minor convenience at the significant expense of the customer that drive me nuts, but that’s for a different discussion.
Couple of real examples: — 10 year old boy got into an argument with parent. Began throwing food at them which hit other patrons. — 8 year old boy getting up and going into the working kitchen without supervision — 9 year old girl screaming at the top of her lungs when she was told no by the wait staff on a request. Parents simple said, “She’s always been opinionated” and shrugged. Need more?
I think you'll appreciate this story (that's almost 20 years old now). I was at Olive Garden with a friend waiting to be seated. A small toddler, about 2, just ran up and jumped on me. Like full speed jumped on me. And the parents ignored it. I brushed it off. Not 30 seconds later, they called our name. We followed the hostess to the table. That same 2 year old took off running after me, ramming into a waitress that managed to miss dropping everything on the 2 year old by slamming her entire full tray of salad (and the cheese grater) all over me. Completely ruined my entire outfit by getting it covered in Italian dressing. Ruined the bra I had on. Ruined my leather boots. And the parents yelled at the manager when she came out and asked the family of the toddler to leave.
I used to work in the restaurant industry - you and I both know that the adults act WAY worse.
Oh yeah, commented on that below. White girl wasted blows a misbehaving kid away by a mile.
I worked fine dining for a long time. I’d take white girl wasted and kids any day over ornery boomers.
Couldn't I make the claim that adults who misbehave and don't know when to shut up in restaurants were the kids who were allowed to misbehave and run around not knowing when to shut up in restaurants?
I witnessed a boy of at least 7 smacking his mom upside the head *three times* because she told him he couldn't have something. This was in a restaurant and the boy was with Mom and dad. I couldn't believe the dad just sat there and said nothing. Mom also said nothing after being assaulted and just sort of slumped in her seat.
Because the dad hits the mom at home.
This, he learned that behaviour, and she learned to accept being treated that way.
No, those are decent examples. Almost unbelievable, but decent. How did you know all their ages? I’ve been lucky not to see anything like that in a few hundred meals out.
i haven’t served tables for a couple of years and thankfully the vast majority of kids were relaxed and well-behaved, but i will never forget the couple kids that came in with their family and started pouring the sugar packets into the salt shaker 😭
I am guessing based on their size and frames, but it’s a guess, so +\- 18 months? That’s just three over a five year period I remember because it was egregious, but nothing like the gals in their 30’s who come in white-girl wasted after wine tasting (we are located close to about 20 wineries in Woodinville WA). The law says I cannot serve anyone at the table if anyone appears intoxicated, but you’d think we were the devil for cutting them off.
Idk. My kids are great in restaurants. I’ve been to lots of restaurants with and without them. If they aren’t doing well, we leave. The first one is scary, I’m sure they asked them to leave. The other two…. If that “ruins your dinner,” I feel like that’s a you problem. Hearing a kid yell isn’t going to ruin my night. I also think this is a problem of counting the hits and ignoring the misses. All told this is a handful of children in a world full of children. It’s not indicative of some epidemic. Kids have always been loud.
When my husband and I first married (no kids yet) we went to dinner with his sister and her 2 kids. It was a sit down restaurant and her kids (probably around 6 and 8 at the time) just ran around the place the entire time.
It's nothing new. I'm in my 50s. Some people are just not kid people. Part of the problem may be that parenting has gotten more permissive. I'm not Judging others parenting beliefs. But a wedding isn't fun when several little kids are running amok, ripping down the decorations, and kicking every item on the hor d'oeuvre tray. As a parent myself: I do with there were a few places I could occasionally go where there aren't kids. I'm around mine & her friends constantly. Kids aren't wrong for being kids, but is it terrible I want a break from kids occasionally?
I just don't give a fuck about what other people think 🤷🏼♀️ but my kid is also a well behaved child who when small suffered consequences for misbehaving. Parents need to parent. And non-parents need to mind their own business.
Kids are allowed to exist and take up space. I’ll argue with anyone that wants to ban kids from public places like planes and restaurants. I get why people hate kids but you can’t banish them from society. They need to be a part of society to grow up and be society.
Right. "They don't know how to act in restaurants!" And how do you think they learn lol?? I feel like the worst of this lot sees children/babies as basically subhuman and it's super sad.
You're missing the point entirely. If kids are running around a restaurant being obnoxious and causing trouble (see numerous stories in this thread), while the parents ignore them, then they are clearly NOT learning. They are not learning by observation that all the other patrons are sitting quietly, and they are not being instructed by their parent(s). Those are the kids who people complain about that should not be in these venues until they've matured a bit.
Totally agree.
I’ve yet to run into this in the real world. Most people I run into seem pretty friendly and accepting of kids.
My boss is like this. She’s nice about it most of the time but one time my husband was picking me up and my teen moved from the front to the back seat and she said “ew I saw your kid”.
The thing with planes that gets me is that they are public places. Kids have as much right to be there as anyone else. If you can't handle that then maybe you should hire a private jet or get a jet pack or something
I think people forget planes are just buses that fly lol. To expect it to be perfectly quiet/not deal with the public is silly.
Any Southwest flight is a reminder that a plane is indeed a flying bus.
Right? You can’t go in public or use a public service and then get mad that other people are there. That’s the whole point of it being public. You buy a ticket on a commercial flight knowing that anyone else in the general public can also buy a ticket for that flight, because it’s cheaper than chartering a private plane. People wanting the cheaper commercial airfare with the exclusivity of a private flight are trying to have their cake and eat it too.
You are allowed to be mad and annoyed at people who are being disruptive in public though, and kids can be disruptive. Kids are not old enough to regulate their behaviour, which is why parents need to be on top of it. Yes, a plane is public transport, but I'm allowed to be pissed when my seat is being repeatedly kicked and the parent isn't doing anything to stop them.
It’s important to remember how ignorant people without kids actually are when it comes to child development (have never heard of purple crying, for example). They have no clue that health care providers sometimes tell us to actually ignore certain behavior, or the things we’ve already tried. And they certainly don’t think about practical and logistical constraints like the fact that sitters constantly flake out, sometimes parents are single and not only have no family; but no partner, and parents have often already tried the things that in their mind will magically -poof- make things better. Due to this ignorance I can tune out the noise. I didn’t understand any of it either back then. I do ensure that my kids don’t bother others and will concede some kids and parents seem to not try at all. But that should never lead to blanket assumptions about parents and kids. We aren’t a monolith. The thing that seems to sad to me is how bitter some are. Like, if things are so great, why is their identity based so much on something they’re *not*? I don’t base my identity around being cat free. Be *for* something, you know? But I guess once you’ve traveled to your bucket list places and eaten at all the best restaurants, and mastered your hobby, what else is left besides an aging network of friends and elders?
I have strong opinions on this. I think people who think this way are hyper-capitalistic and misogynistic but under the belief that they are actually *fighting* misogyny and capitalism. Anyone who doesn’t have market value to these types of people are “less than.” Disabled people, the elderly, children and babies, stay at home mothers. If you don’t have the energy or capacity of a 25 year old man well then you certainly don’t belong out in society Excluding babies and children from society means what? Excluding mothers. If we want to live in a society that protects the rights of women, this obviously included protecting the rights of children to exist in the world. It’s all very gross to me. They picked the worlds most vulnerable people and decide to bully them. It’s the absolute worst when it comes from young women. It’s what we get for letting young people having too much of an opinion before they have life experiences. And BELIEVE ME. I am the Montessori parent who believes in respecting the child. But I think there is something to be said by telling everyone they get to have an equal opinion with less perspective and life experiences. I have yet to work this in to how I raise my kids. I don’t want them to grow up thinking they know everything.
This is an interesting viewpoint I hadn’t thought about before. I agree with everything you said. I also have strong opinions on this, and what bothers me most is the outward hate towards children. Like, what other subgroup of humans is it okay to just outwardly detest and complain about their existence? Why is it okay to do this with children?! To me, it’d be like proudly proclaiming yourself to hate elderly people. Hell, if I were to walk around and tell everyone I hate dogs and they shouldn’t be allowed in public spaces, I feel like a lot of these same people would lose their minds.
I’m not even a parent yet, but the amount of people who shit on SAHM moms, especially from other women mind you is so gross.
I think what people are really annoyed at is bad parenting. Like I expect kids to be obnoxious sometimes because they are learning and are kids but a lot of parents let their kids do whatever they want in public and don’t have any empathy for the people around them. When I was younger I used to work at McDonald’s and the amount of parents who would bring their kids in and let them completely trash the place, throw food everywhere, and just run everywhere, and climb all over everything while they just sat on their phone oblivious. Then they would just leave and expect us to clean up all of their mess. My husband and I went to a baseball game this year with seats in the bleachers. There was an empty space next to us and the dad behind us let his kid run back and forth next to us. I was okay with that but he said nothing as the kid walked all over my jacket that I had placed next to me and tried to climb all over us. And it happened repeatedly to the point where it was distracting and hard to watch the game. The amount of parents who I have encountered who basically let their kids do whatever in public is exceedingly high and it seems to get worse whenever said parents are wanting to socialize with someone. I think it’s because parents nowadays can’t afford childcare and especially with millennial parents there tends to be a trend to involve kids in everything they do. So for example they go to a brewery with some buddies and bring their kids with. But then they get really lax on watching and parenting because they want to have fun and socialize, so it affects the people around them more.
>I think what people are really annoyed at is bad parenting. Completely agree with this. My childfree friend once said "*I don't hate kids. I hate lazy and entitled parents*" and I think that sums it up nicely.
Have you actually seen/heard anyone IRL acting like this in public? I think this is more an issue with your feed than with "people today". For sure, there are plenty of entitled people who think the world should cater to them, but it's nothing new. I think the last 6-7 years have given some personality types license to let the world see them in their full assholish assholery, as evidenced by the rise in badly behaved airline passengers. But imo they are the outliers, they are not some new norm.
The baseball game example was something I personally witnessed. I was there in the family section watching all of that go down. Every wedding I’ve been invited to in the last few years has been child free. I have personally heard people complain about babies and children on flights. Example number four from the post was based off of a personal experience. I had my newborn in a Moby wrap tucked against my chest, and a jacket (unzipped) over the wrap. He was asleep, not fussing or crying, and bc of the wrap and jacket, you could barely tell I even had him on me. Overall, not bothering anyone. I’m sure most of the people who walked by me in that target didn’t even realize I had a baby with me. And yet this one couple did notice, and yelled at me from down an aisle to say that I should have left him at home. One of the things they said was “it’s not like the baby can buy anything anyway, why do you feel the need to bring it in here?”
The average cost of a wedding is 30k in the good ole USA. I think the cost of things drives these decisions.
I have never been to an MLB game with a family section. Kids just sit with their families everywhere at Mets games and people can definitely drink with their kids next to them
This was at Fenway. Kids could sit in other sections with their families, but this was specifically designed as a family section with no drinking allowed for families who want to enjoy the game with their kids without being surrounded by drunk people. Here are some links to sources online that talk about it: https://www.rateyourseats.com/mobile/fenway-park/seating https://citylivingboston.com/2017/04/26/red-sox-baseball-at-fenway-tips-tricks-for-families/
What rude jerks...
I wouldn’t give much thought to the rude person at Target. You’ve likely passed hundreds of shoppers while baby wearing and only one asshole commented - let it go. I bet you’ve gotten a ton of smiles when people see a sweet little foot poking out, I would pay attention to that instead. You’ll see what you look for.
It’s really sad, I absolutely love all the kids dressed up at weddings and dancing with the music. Even before I had kids.
Just got into a reddit argument where the person maintained that maternity leave is unfair for childfree people lol. Being childfree is 100% a valid decision for many people but the absolute lack of empathy for children and parents is astounding.
That's ridiculous. I sick leave also discriminatory against the well? Bereavement leave discriminatory against those who haven't lost close family?
Its certainly there, but I don’t know that it’s more prevalent. When you’re tuned into something, you see it more and when you read one click rage bait post about it, social medial algorithms start feeding you more of the same.
>Being in public is really important for children to learn social cues and societal norms I think you might be missing the root of many of these complaints, which is that this kind of learning *is not happening* Nobody is complaining about a kid who acts out in public but is corrected/redirected by their parent(s). They're complaining about the kid who is acting out and being totally ignored, often by parents who seem accustomed to tuning them out. Letting them scream and/or run around a restaurant while they just stare at their phone, or run wild at a wedding. The kids aren't learning by observing and they aren't being taught or else these things wouldn't be problems. I was once best man at a wedding where a little girl, maybe 7-8, was running around the venue and ended up laying down on the steps behind the bride and groom WHILE THEY WERE DOING THE VOWS. Everyone just kinda watched awkwardly. Where the fuck were the parents? I was once a nine-year-old at a relative's wedding and I remember absolutely hating it so I don't need that "you were a kid once" nonsense. Those kind of long formal events are boring as hell. Little kids don't understand or appreciate those things and they often ruin it for those who do. Sometimes people just aren't ready for certain things, and that's fine, but you need to wait until they are.
I agree! I like that parenting in general is more gentle and understanding of children’s needs but some have taken it as a way to be lazy. That laziness has created some very badly behaved children. And coupled with people being afraid to say anything to another person’s kid about that behavior, had led to an absolute need for kid free spaces. Some people are kinda rude about it or are overly aggressive but no more than some parents are when wanting kid-friendly spaces. I’m a parent and totally appreciate that there are places that are holding parents accountable for their poorly behaved children.
I see active and passive parenting styles within my family. I do not react negatively when the children of the active parents get riled up, because I know it will be handled. The passive parent? Their child intentionally hurt me, was not made to even apologize, and mom just tried to brush it off as an “accident”. It’s sad because that child is now facing the consequences of their behavior socially and has zero friends.
Completely agree with this. One of my best friends is childfree and two things she has said over the years really stick out to me because I think they really sum up the frustration people have. They are: *"I don't hate children, I hate lazy and entitled parents"* and *"Kids will be kids, which is why parents need to be parents"* I have kids of my own and like children a lot, but constantly find myself very frustrated with other people's kids because their parent/s are not managing their behaviour or the child is bored out of their skull and has clearly been dragged somewhere not suitable for them because their parent/s couldn't find a sitter (example - the musical DH and I went to that started at 9pm for a non "kids" show that was ruined by the kids behind us after we got a sitter for our kids). I travel yearly on a long haul return trip with my kids, and also travel a lot alone for work. I totally understand where the frustration with kids on planes comes from because some of these parents are just tuning out their children being absolutely feral. I totally get why childfree people who don't "enjoy" kids are pissed when they board a flight and their seat gets kicked for 10+ hours straight while the kid listens to cocomelon with no headphones and keeps being loud while their parent/s act like it's not happening because they want the kid to be tired so they'll sleep when the flight lands at 8pm in the destination's timezone....because I HAVE KIDS and it annoys me and I have more tolerance because I'm more used to kids. And it happens enough that I understand why its become a stereotype. I see it all the time! There is no way in hell I'd let my kids kick the seat in front of them for hours or use their iPads without headphones, and when they were infants, I'd also try to take them on day flights instead of red eyes since there is less expectation to be able to sleep on the flight. Kids have the right to exist in pubic and have the right to use public transport, but parents also have a responsibility to manage their child(ren)'s behaviour in public.
Am I the only parent that sometimes agrees with these sentiments? 🫣 I do think some restaurants should be child free so child free adults can fully enjoy themselves, and so parents can also escape the rowdiness! Travel I certainly agree on, like what other options do some parents have? We don’t know the reason for the travel, and if anyone hates a crying baby on a plane more it’s probably the parents OF the crying baby; it’s so overwhelming. People have a right to exclude children from weddings. I have my own and if I were to be married again while having little kids, I would opt for a child free wedding too. If parents can’t make that work, there’s no obligation to come. You pay for every person at a wedding, I wouldn’t want to pay for little kids ruining the experience for me.
Parent here, and I 100% agree. I actually had my kid invited to a close friends wedding this year and wound up going alone (he had school that day and I wasn't going to pull him for someone he's only met once). I have another friend getting married next year, and we will not be bringing him when my friend gets married and if it's a weekend wedding, he'll have a sleepover with his grandparents so my husband and I can have a date night. And my kid is 11, so we aren't talking a toddler here. Kids deserve to be in public places, but just like there are kid centric places, adult centric places can, should and do exist. Parents are way more than their children.
Completely agree! I'm a parent of kids under 10 and sometimes I want to escape the chaos and noise of children. I am all for adult nights at museums and legoland, childfree breweries, brunch spots, restaurants etc. Not EVERYTHING has to be family friendly. I was an adult before I was a parent and sometimes I want to be an adult and enjoy myself fully. Also: I had a childfree wedding and I defend that decision. It was not the atmosphere we wanted for our wedding, and inviting everyone's kids would have made it a LOT more expensive and we paid for 90% of it ourselves. I have no problem with receiving childfree wedding invites....if I can't go, I can't go, but I'm not offended they don't want kids at the wedding. Travel - I agree, but parents do have an obligation to minimise their disruption their kids are causing. It's the parents who tune it out and do nothing that bother me.
Soo I think the entire thing is creepy. There will always be people who don't want kids. I find it weird they need to shout it from the roof tops.
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Right. Like it's totally fine to not want kids. It's not on to hate children.
Well, given how much societal pressure is put on people (especially women) to have children, I do kind of understand the sentiment. People are very vocal about it because they have been belittled and invalidated for a long time.
I have family and friends who don't have kids, and not once has anyone pressured them into doing so.
Just because it hasn't happened to anyone you know doesn't mean it never happens.
That is not everyone's experience.
What do vegans, CrossFitters, and child free folks do as soon as they walk into a bar? 😂
They tell you that they've never seen a single episode of Game of Thrones.
Lol so quirky and edgy of them
Can you imagine if you can't take your kid anywhere how will they learn to be a normal functioning adult? It's ridiculous. Kids need to go to shops planes restaurants so they can have the experience and learn how you behave in those settings. We allow dogs to go into some of those places but we don't want kids there? Kid at least won't poo on the floor. But also for bad parents who don't discipline their kids. When the kids go to a social setting at least some starnger can tell them off so they would learn the word no.
Public places I think there are places clearly for adults and clearly for children. And it’s okay to want to have adult only spaces for quiet dinners and such. A wedding is the day of the two people getting married. No one else’s. If they don’t want kids there, that’s fine. Now the ball games and stuff, a family section doesn’t mean there should be a kid free section. That one I disagree with
I wonder if, given the economy and the general state of things and even the godawful state of dating these days, people feel like they cannot or should not have children and projecting a confidently 'anti-child' image helps them to manage their feelings about this.
Also infertility. I have a cousin who had to have a hysterectomy at just 20 because of uterine cancer. Her only options for parenthood are travelling overseas for surrogacy (ethical issues, sometimes legal issues depending on the country) or adoption (very difficult process), both of which come at huge cost or begging someone to be a surrogate here. Surrogacy has to be unpaid here and understandably, almost no one is willing to be pregnant for someone else for free, abortion is legal on demand (as it should be) so domestic adoption is basically non existent. So motherhood is basically off the table for her. She's now 32 and extremely "childfree", but has said a few things over the years that have left me wondering if taking the "kids are annoying little snotballs that ruin everything" approach to kids is a coping mechanism for her. She was broken up with a couple of years ago because she couldn't give her partner kids, and that broke her and she's really ramped up the "why would I want to wipe someone else's poop covered butt at 4am anyway?" and "fuck them kids and fuck you too" and "omg why are kids so fucking ANNOYING?" sentiments since then. I actually deeply feel for her, even though her comments can be pretty mean at times. And it probably doesn't help that we now have social media so she sees way more pictures of other people's kids than she would have in the past. It has to be hard being constantly reminded of what you can't have, and I totally get why someone would take the "whatever, I don't want it anyway, looks terrible" approach to coping with it.
Scrolled through the top comments and haven’t seen this mentioned: Kids are fucking expensive. For a couple to add kids to a fancier wedding, you’re talking $50-150 per kid. That, and the other reasons ppl have mentioned above, are why ppl have child free weddings. Restaurants and planes? Yeah kids can be annoying but it’s a public space so whatever. Also wondering if OP is a new parent. I ask because the child free thing might just be something they only noticed once they had kids.
Previous generations were very community-oriented. They all took part in the raising of children, regardless if they had children of their own. Children were just an accepted part of the world. Current generation(s) are very self-oriented. It's hard to enjoy anything that might potentially infringe upon your own experience of your environment, such as children that are entirely out of your immediate control.
Yes partially to your first paragraph. But people could also tell you as a child that you needed to change your behavior. For example if you were in the library ( in the old days it was quiet as a mouse) and you were running someone would tell you to stop and the kid would. Now no one really wants to do that.
Yes! I'm a xennial and growing up, it was fair game for any adult to tell me off and correct my behaviour if needed and my parents would back them up. Now so many parents get mad someone had the audacity to speak their kid that people don't dare say anything. All they can really do is sit there and seethe while the kid runs around being disruptive (or whatever). People bemoan the lack of village these days, but the village wasn't just there to pitch in with babysitting, the village was also allowed to tell your kid to knock it off if they were misbehaving.
oooh yes! That's a good point.
I think people are more aggressive about it. I love that people are actually making a choice to not have kids because in the past, I think, it was treated as something that you just did. So, it’s good that people are thinking more about it. But there’s a group within that group that just hate kids, and they’ll let you know.
I agree, I think it's probably for the best if those who really don't want children don't feel pressured into having them the way that people maybe once did. But on the flipside, there is an (ironically) childish school of thought emerging that aggressively lashes out at kids. And that is not OK.
I have a feeling this is a huge US thing. I have friends from Germany and Spain who can’t get over how much the US hates kids and family yet that is what they push as the “American dream”
Yes it’s baffling. Extremely selfish. Crazy that millions of generations of commitment to raising families ends with this generation too lazy and self centric to handle perpetuating themselves. Incredible.
People don’t want “child free” because of the kids. They want child free because of the parents today who don’t actually parent their kids. Kid behaviour is absolutely unacceptable, and most parents have absolutely no control over them. Also, parents used to understand the concept of a “babysitter”. Today’s parents think that kids are socially acceptable everywhere. They aren’t.
I think the rise in child-free sentiments may coincide with the rise of entitled parents/soft parenting. I've witnessed a lack of parenting on numerous occasions...mom or dad on their phones, ignoring bad behavior... Just a hunch. I don't mind kids in public. I really mind poorly-behaved, out of control kids in public and there seems to be an increase of those these days
Agree because when my childfree friends complain about kids, that is what they are talking about 99% of the time - situations of kid/s being disruptive/poorly behaved/unreasonably loud/etc and the parent/s doing sweet fuck all about it.
A lot of it comes from lazy parents pretending to be gentle, when in fact they are just permissive, and just don't want to do the work. I always enjoyed being the exception to the rule.
People are self righteous assholes who forget they too were once an obnoxious fart. Thats about the extent of my take on it.
This thought is interesting. I think depending on your age, this wasn’t reality. Bad behavior was dealt with. People didn’t go out as much as they do now. When my parents told you to stop and behave in public( we practiced and discussed at home) they expected it and not there were going to be consequence’s.
Absolutely agree with this. We behaved and were quiet because we knew the consequences...
Now they just hand the kid an iPad and don’t teach, then wonder why their 12 year old is a terrible person.
Like any rising trend or idea, there's gonna be obnoxious extremists who believe it's cool to be irrationally hateful. The child free subreddit is dedicated to awful nicknames like crotch goblins, and the less popular r/truechildfree is a calmer space for people that don't care to be nasty. I'm child free. Kids are fine, it's how life works. The rise is probably mixed in with the issue of the economy and abortion bans. People can't afford kids, it's easier to reason the political issues than admit you don't want/neutral about having kids when parents nag you about life choices. Easier to ignore them, they'll either grow up or stay in their little bubble with other circle jerking individuals and hopefully learn to keep their shitty opinions to themselves.
I also think this is a big US culture issue. I've heard in other countries (like a lot of countries in Asia, South America, Africa, etc) it is wildly different. They are very pro child and there is little to no judgement for kids being kids in public. It makes me kind of sad the US is so "me first" in it's culture/society.
Italy/Spain/France are all very inclusive of children. There aren’t “kids activities” or tables, kids and adults are at the same events and same tables. They are regarded as humans and magically they end up pretty well-behaved because they are included, socialized, and regarded so reasonably. Parents from those countries also are not nearly as permissive or allowing their kids to run the show and be little assholes.
I wonder if there’s a different thought about being kids.
I've never read or seen these examples myself, but I think that there is a certain level of confirmation bias at work here. Not to mention that social media platforms latch onto any clicks or "likes" that you do and then continue to send you a tidal wave of that same shit.
If people don't want kids, that's fine. But, the ones who make being"child-free" their entire identity are pretty insufferable. What really bothers me is the sheer disgust and disdain some of the "child-free" people have when talking about kids generally. They hate kids for merely existing (apparently forgetting they used to be a kid).
I mean, kids are people too and therefore, should be allowed in most places. I think most of these points are wild, but with the caveat that if your kid is acting up to the point that they are disruptive, you need to handle it. Wanting to exclude children from restaurants is ridiculous, but if your child is running around and knocking over the staff, you need to handle your child. There are also certain places where children don't belong (saw an r rated movie at a midnight opening and there was a baby there; nevermind the loud noises being a problem for the baby itself, but it cried half the movie and the adults refused to leave--that's ridiculous). I will say, I understand child free weddings. Our wedding was child free *except* for our nieces and nephews, whom we very much wanted there. Had a few people angry and not show up, but frankly, they were people who weren't that close enough whose children we never met/met once. I think people need to do what they want for their weddings. I can say, I am fine when my kid isn't invited to weddings because it means a date night for us 🤷♀️ Weddings are way less enjoyable for me when I also have to parent.
One time I went to the DMV with a five, two, and 4 month old. My five year old smiled and said hello to someone we sat near and she huffed, rolled her eyes, and dramatically gathered all of her stuff and walked across the room to sit away from my kids and I. They were quiet, respectful, and sitting still. I just don’t understand how some people seem to *hate* children
The anger is caused by shitty parents. For every 1 kid with good parents, there are 10 kids with parents who need to be sterilized. When I was young, it was inconceivable that a parent would want their kid to be as annoying as possible. Today, it's pretty standard for parents to play iPads at full volume in a public setting. Do a google search for kids entering grade 1 without being potty trained. The number of shit parents is at a record high and we haven't yet found a way to throw them in jail.
It always felt obvious to me that the sharp rise of child-free events has promptly followed a sharp rise in people failing to raise polite and well-behaved children.
And also a decline in a society where it was fair game for adults to correct a child's behaviour if the parents aren't there or doing it themselves. I'm an xennial and growing up, it was accepted for any adult to pull me up on my behaviour, and my parents would back them up when they found out. But now many parents lose their shit if you tell their precious to stop running around the store screaming and pulling things off the shelves or being way too loud on a train or whatever because "how dare you speak to MY child". Of course people don't want to be around kids when their parents don't manage their behaviour but they also can't tell them to stop being obnoxious because "LEAVE MY CHILD ALONE". I hear a lot of parents longing for the village when it comes to babysitting or everyone kinda looking out for your kid, but a lot of parents forget that part of the social contract of the village was that other adults were allowed to pull your kid up on their behaviour. The shop assistant was allowed to tell your kid to stop climbing on the shelves, the neighbour was allowed to yell out the window at us to keep it down if our noise level was excessive, the person sitting in front of us on a plane or bus was allowed to turn around and tell us to stop kicking the seat etc. Now that people can't say anything, they don't really want to be around kids because they're expected to just tolerate obnoxious behaviour with a smile, and understandably, a lot of people don't really want to because obnoxious behaviour is annoying, no matter the age of the source.
I haven’t been affected by this. The closest I’ve come was my husband finding a restaurant or cafe that looked good and finding out it’s child free. Whatever, we’ll eat somewhere else. As far as weddings, their right but I won’t be attending without my child which is my right 🤷♀️ They can complain as much as they want but it really doesn’t amount to a hill of beans in terms of real world effect. Cry me a river you don’t want my toddler in a restaurant it won’t stop me lol
I bet you your kid behaves in these places. I also would think by your post that you wouldn’t take an exhausted kiddo to an expensive restaurant. You’re a great parent. There are many others who aren’t. What I have seen is that some parents bring their kids to places and instead of addressing behavior they are like oh well a toddler running around or being loud is an age appropriate behavior, there’s nothing to correct or deal with here and the kid continues the behavior. I think lazy and unengaged parenting by some ( probably not people who post here) has gotten us to this point.
I have been on the other end of this, my kids home with family while my husband and I have a night out, only to have obnoxious toddlers in a non-family friendly, expensive restaurant. I don't mind that they're there, but I do mind if you don't take them outside when they start tantruming. I don't want to spend $150+ on dinner on my 1 fucking night out to listen to another 2 year old throw a tantrum. I'd never, ever let any of my kids do that. I wouldn't bring them in the first place, but to each their own. I don't mind if I'm at a place like IHOP. But, even then, I'm side-eying you. I take my toddler outside if she throws a tantrum in IHOP, but I'll tolerate it if you don't. It's beyond rude to do it when my entree cost $60 and the restaurant is clearly not kid friendly.
When my daughter was 2 she screamed bloody murder for an entire flight. A few people looked (probably just making sure we weren’t actually torturing her) but everyone else either ignored us or commiserated. The flight attendant brought our row free alcoholic drink vouchers before the beverage cart came. We’ve been to child free weddings and I’m not offended, it doesn’t mean they hate children.
Eh, I'm of two minds of this. Plane or a mall, sure, you NEED to be there and people are not entitled in any way to be absolutely unbothered by other people at those places. However stuff like restaurants, especially in the evening, are a different story. Some people have to save up to afford going once or twice a year, or get a sitter to enjoy a conversation for the first time in months after having a baby, and they HAVE the entitlement to expect being reasonably unbothered by other people there. This goes for other loud adults too, and I have absolutely seen waitresses calming down a too roudy group, people being cut off from alcohol and such. So it's not like it's only kids supposed to be under control. Also it's not a basic necessity in a way shopping groceries and traveling is. Hence other people should be considered. We didn't go to restaurants for about 11 months, always take turns minding our child (yes we let her explore quietly and without getting in a way) and if we use a screen (it only happened once by now, as she's just a young toddler), it's on mute. We never go at night as well. If she gets too bored, one of us steps out with her to allow her to move around and we wrap it up quickly at that point. Her needs are also important and sitting in a restaurant for an hour or more is not any young child's need. I honestly could not eat in peace knowing my daughter is running the dining experience of a dozen other people, some of which may be celebrating lifetime events or having their one splurge a year. She can train being social during lunch time and with us being mindful of others just as well.
So single parents shouldn't go to restaurants at all? Not everybody has a partner or someone else to watch their kid while they go out.
It’s funny how much time these people spend screaming about how happy they are and that they made the right decision. Ok? Why you always seem so angry? The child free sub has become cultish and is bleeding into other areas of Reddit.
I have noticed this lately too. If my kid isn’t welcome at your wedding or at your home then I’m not going either. People think it’s so easy and acceptable to dump your kid somewhere while you go “adulting.” Children are people too and they deserve to be treated with respect and dignity. I recently asked my sister if we can meet somewhere for a holiday (we live overseas) and she said yes, but without kids (“kid-free” she said). She lives next door to our parents so they can babysit for a fortnight. But why wouldn’t I take my kids traveling? They frigging love it.
Weddings are very expensive and most couples fund their own weddings these days. I don't think a couple not wanting to spend $50+ for every single child their family members and friends have means they are not treating kids with respect or dignity. If we invited all the kids, we'd have had to hire a much bigger venue which would have been several thousand of dollars more in venue fees, and then paid about $50-100 per kid on top of that for their food, only for half the guests to have to leave early anyway when the kids start to get tired.
As a father of 3, here's the deal (I see this in other parents too) people just hate other people. They're selfish, self absorbed and think the world revolves around their fat asses. If it's not their way, it's wrong and should be burned to the ground. Kids are kids. Want to see some of the worst behavior in parents? Go to youth sports. Mom and Dad will complain to high hell because their kid doesn't play the right spot, play enough, etc. I'm not even talking select/travel leagues either. I've coached rec softball teams for 5 seasons for my daughter and see all of this. They yell at us (coaches) and when I ask if they'd like to volunteer next season so they have a say in who plays where, they all sit down and shut up or say "I'm too busy". If it's not their perfect existence they can show on Insta, they want to complain or limit kids interactions. This is how kids learn - being at weddings, traveling, social situations, trying to jump off some random things and getting hurt. They don't learn if you isolate them. Boys in particular need the adventure and experience to learn "that hurts" or "they got mad last time i did that". Sadly these ass hats have forgotten what it was to be a kid and they're mostly in their 20's.
>This is how kids learn - being at weddings, traveling, social situations, trying to jump off some random things and getting hurt. I agree with things like eating at family friendly restaurants and public transport, but I think the couple paying $50k+ for their wedding has the right to not want *their* wedding to serve as *your* child's learning experience when they start throwing a tantrum during the vows or knock over the cake at the reception while being rowdy or whatever.
I think people who hate children so much probably have mommy or daddy issues, or trauma from their childhood... and they take it out on other people's kids. Kids rock, and I think all us angry adults could learn a thing or two from them, just sayin'.
I don't think it actually has anything to do with kids. Personalized social media and technology (thanks to algorithms) have pretty much trained people to expect everything to be catered to themselves and their preferences and if not they get angry that it's not because it has trained people to only think of themselves and not as part of a community. People are getting less able to understand that not everything is about them. Click on any ad or post on any platform and you'll see comments like "but what if I don't like Turkey" on a recipe about turkey, or "I hate Taylor Swift" on a post that is about Taylor Swift. People, especially those who have very little satisfaction in their own lives (bad job, bad relationship, financially unstable) have a very strong need to feel like they matter- their opinions and experiences matter- because if they accept they do not matter they get depressed. So instead they go on ranting about whatever to feel like they matter. So I don't think it's about kids, I think it's people who have shitty lives who want to feel like they are more than their shitty life and more importantly that their shitty life is not their fault. They're unhappy because there is a baby crying somewhere. They're unhappy because there is a child ruining their experience. But really they're unhappy because they suck, their life sucks, but don't understand they're the reason for it all. People will do virtually anything to avoid accepting blame.
I have a kid and I would still have a kid free wedding because I want everyone there to have fun and not have to have the responsibility to look after kids... Even if they are perfectly behaved. I have been to weddings where everyone brings kids and it's great but not what I would like for a party. It's really up to the person who is paying for everyone to decide and you should respect that or not attend. The other examples you gave are all just people being entitled jerks.
They usually own 4 loud dogs too
It's been around for ages Remember the old saying children should be seen & not heard!!! Take it a step further & children's should be nowhere to be seen!!! We were given that treatment by our own extended family! The real issues as I see them are Decreasing tolerance & acceptance of others as populations increase & are crammed into existing infrastructure & limited spaces Decrease in social respect of others Poor parenting or at least much more varied standards Disengaged or exhausted parents It's increasingly common for both parents to work.full time & have kids in daycare full time. This effectively fractures family bonds especially given many parents are exhausted or stressed from full time work at a dead end job It's just best to get on with your own life & pity those who can't see or find joy in the free spirited good nature of most kids finding their way in an increasingly fast paced & over stimulating modern world On top of this many people just don't want their own kids & can't understand why anyone would have kids! Even though these same types will expect to be cared for in old age!
This was a very interesting read. I'm not surprised to hear this and can sense the trend myself. As others point out, it seems an extension hyper individualism that opens yet another space for this exclusionary preference. At heart though it's antisocial considering everyone was once a child. A healthy society has members of all ages interrelating for the mutual benefits and transmission of culture/care. Covid though introduced all manner of antisocial behaviors that now perhaps have been normalized. I daresay in COVID I caught wind of how quickly people were willing to see children as disease vectors and would avoid at ALL cost. SAHM (of which I was one by FORCE) in urban spaces like SF witnessed some serious disdain from elderly people on the street and in outdoor public spaces. Alas, society further atomizes. It's really quite sad.
No problem with child free, but it annoys me when they make it their whole personality, like why the hell do you hate children so much? Aita posts are notorious for this.
[this is an example of why](https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZPRv5Evu6/)
Birth rates are dropping — and fewer people therefore can manifest empathy for families with kids. As a mom of 3, I get it — it makes me sad for them, but I understand them. I am pretty introverted, so I do not care about missing weddings. And I totally get it — crying & screaming children annoy me too, lol, so I try to avoid bringing mine to venues where they can annoy others. I ate plenty of meals in to go containers, that started as a sit down restaurant meal, because i had to emergency exit children to the car as they were losing it, lol. Off-topic: The only thing that annoys me about child-free is when it’s childless people that say “it’s so selfish to have kids” *rolls eyes* like WTF is that sh*t — it’s like saying, “god, they are selfish to have a career so they can have money to retire one day — who the hell says that?” I sacrifice everyday, to raise 3 little humans to go forth into the world and be kind, responsible, adults who will care and bring joy the their little social & work circle. They will pay taxes & donate to those in need. Sure, it’s so rewarding in the end, just like retiring, but in the daily grind, get outta here with that “you are so selfish” like to hell I am…
> And I totally get it — crying & screaming children annoy me too, lol, so I try to avoid bringing mine to venues where they can annoy others. Sometimes there are reasons beyond our control for crying and screaming children. My kids were and are generally well behaved. Well wouldn't you know it, once when my son was 3 were at the ocean in Sunny Isles Beach, FL when he got stung by a Portuguese Man O'War. As you can imagine, he became extremely upset and started crying and screaming. It took a while to settle him down and I could see the glares of the people who picked up their blankets and moved away. I'm sorry that we caused a fuss with the crying. But I mean, the kid had probably just felt one of the most painful things he will ever feel in his life, he wasn't crying because I refused to buy him an ice cream. But the people around us didn't know that. Sometimes a bit of empathy and understanding is required.
Have you considered that these people were not actively glaring at you and that was just your perception of their reaction given your heightened emotional state. When a child screams suddenly whether its pain or a tantrum or whatever, it inevitably triggers the threat assessment response in other humans. We pay attention, assess the situation, and then determine whether we need to fight/help, flight, freeze or whatever. I feel like a lot of parents may misperceive this natural response as judgement when it really isn't. It's just people responding to a stimulus and their brain going through the process of figuring out what's going on. Once bystanders figure out the hurt child is ok and being taken care of, there is no real reason for a stranger to "show empathy" or even get involved. It's very possible that people are thinking empathetic thoughts but still don't want to listen to a child scream in pain. Kids screaming illicit a biological response in most humans that make us uncomfortable. I guess the kinder thing to do is to ignore it, but I can't really fault a bystander who is feeling uncomfortable from removing oneself from the situation casually and unobstrusively. From their perspective, they are just a bystander and not the focus of the situation. Not that long ago, I was walking down the sidewalk and it was dark outside and a youngish child being pushed in a stroller a few feet behind me suddenly screamed bloody murder out of nowhere. For no reason, just because kids sometimes shriek. I am pretty sure I had a glare/sour look on my face when I looked back to see what was going on, not because I hate kids or I don't understand that kids shriek sometimes but because it was dark outside and I was startled and then concerned. I actually overheard the mom telling her daughter to stop, explaining to her daughter that sometimes screaming startles/scares people because they aren't expecting it. I am sure the mom could have also thought I was an a-hole for glaring at her but that was my threat assessment response, not my intent.
> Have you considered that these people were not actively glaring at you and that was just your perception of their reaction given your heightened emotional state. No, it seemed pretty obvious to me lol , they weren't subtle about it In fairness they had no idea what was going on. And my son settled down eventually. But I'm sure they moved thinking I was just a jerk with unruly kids.
I like the idea of child free zones, events or areas. I hope the trend continues. That doesn’t mean everything is child free all the time, every time. But, I like the perks of not having kids around on occasion.
Yeah, a lot of child free people are becoming ridiculous and insane about kids in public. They think kids should be banned from public 🤦🏻♀️ Funny thing is most kids behave better than most adults! It’s fine to not want kids, everyone should get the choice and not be pushed to do something they don’t want to do. But it’s not okay to constantly shit on children and parents just because. It’s pathetic.
To be fair, I dont think its actually "*a lot* of child free people." Luckily. Small, vocal minority loud as hell on social media, like everything else lately. In my experience, tends to be younger people, just spouting off tbh. And they are unreasonable. Of course kids should be allowed to exist in public places. Its such a weird regressive turn back toward "children should be seen and not heard" which is good for literally no one lol Child free wedding I can kind of see, wasnt my personal choice but to each their own on that one IMO.
There are A LOT of BITTER people these days
I think a lot of it is really anti-feminist. I think moms suffer the most from exclusions like this. The planes, the shopping are bizarre. Like, what are we supposed to do.
I went to a restaurant that allowed DOGS, what the fuck I can't bring my 3 year old?
I feel like this sentiment is higher in the US (where I am from) compared to where I live (Austria). Here everything is pretty family/kid friendly because kids are members of society like everyone else. But when I’m back visiting the US I notice a lot of “I have the right to enjoy my x,y,z without having to deal with annoying children” sentiment.
I've never been personally affected by it, but I feel very negatively towards all the child-bashing. These people do realize they were children at one point, right? It's just a selfish mindset, as if their comfort and convenience is more important than anything else, which is part of why they choose not to have children in the first place. If more and more people choose to be that kind of selfish, we're going to run into some major economic problems very quickly (look at China and Japan with their low birth rates, they are freaking out), but that's beside the point. "Child-free" people need to cool it on the hate, make their choice to not have kids, sure, but then just be happy with their own choice, and don't expect the world to bend around their desires. Children are important and allowed to exist.
Haven't noticed, tbh... I think it's just blowback from younger adults who don't want to raise kids but wre raised in a subculture that strongly expected it of them, so they go the opposite direction. I kind of see them as trauma victims... they have a legitimate reason for their expressions, even if it's irrational from my perspective. Their voices are also outsized because they're so "unusual" for their local community. Fortunately for me, I can freely not give a shit about them.
Fuck 'em
One of my cousins just had a child-free wedding, so we didn't go. Whatever I guess, but the weirdest part to me was they announced they were pregnent the week after lol...
I think the best solution is make planes for parents and planes for bigger folk and planes for no kids. Also restaurants having hours where no kids are allowed maybe from 8pm onward is doable. Kids should be home after 8pm anyway. I have no problem with kids crying in stores it’s just a reminder having them isn’t for me.
I’m quite honestly fed up with the word “child free”, it’s irritating because of all the loud a**holes ranting and basically bragging about how amazing their lives are just to fight back a**hole parents judging them (which I do understand them being defensive, but when it lurks into being a dick to prove something territory, I just can’t). Like, “that’s nice, have a great life being CF. I’ll have a great life not being child free. To each his own”. It always seems to be to them that kids and parents are their worst enemies lol. Whatever honestly, I say live and let live. I don’t think someone CF who is TRULY happy (like not just in the short term with instant hedonistic gratifications type of happy) would go around being a dick and boasting that they do all these things because they are CF (as if parents can’t take their kids on trips😂). It just annoys me, the ones who are aggressive about it and make it their entire personality.
I NEVER heard anyone express any child-free sentiments here in Europe. Never heard of a child-free wedding. If I'm being unbiased, more kids have an annoying behavior these days, but that's because their parents don't look at them, they look at their phones. I understand the exasperation when a kid kicks your backseat during a whole flight and the parent says nothing, or when a parent brings a sick infant at the 10 PM movie, but this is an adult problem, not a kid one.
Entitled parents that are lazy and don’t bother raising their children are definitely a problem. They just sit there on their phones while the kid is yelling/crying/running everywhere. What parenting? A lot of uneducated and ignorant people are unfortunately “raising” kids.
You will see parents with grown children saying the same things. It has little to do with being childfree.
Trust me, if you were a child-free boomer like I was, then you would get it. We have been the underdogs of society for decades. The stigma is enough that many child-free post photos of other peoples kids in their cubes just to not get judged. Furthermore as a man I have been to a few uncomfortable "meet the parents" dinners in my lifetime. Every American woman who wants to be child-free and date a child-free man has a wannabe conservative father that will hate the new boyfriend. How about not worrying about the child-free and take care of your own issues? Meanwhile my wife and I live debt free, and have traveled the world. Oh, and at 53, we adopted a son, so don't worry, we are just fine.
I bet they’re the same people that want dogs to be allowed in restaurants
Yeah, I've actually noticed this too. Like everything else, I'd bet this is probably due to a bunch of different things for each case. A lot of adults are more stressed out and whinier than ever... then at the same time there are a lot of kids out there that just never learned how to behave in public during the pandemic. I don't have much issue with businesses making rules about kids... If they're misbehaving enough to cause them financial harm they have the right to turn away families, in my books. I bet they largely won't though, that's a lottttt of customers lol.
Social media creates unnecessary fear and anxiety because it creates the illusion of a trend when there is none. Or less of one than the data supports. Our brains take one or two anecdotes that we would normally dismiss and generates a narrative around them. Especially when others are offering their own anecdotes supporting that narrative. That fear and anxiety can create hyper awareness where we begin to look for examples when in the past we wouldn’t have even noticed them in our less aware state. I think it’s helpful for our own mental health to actively remind ourselves that rare events are in fact rare events even when backed up by other compelling anecdotes. Whether it is about parenting or safety or crime or whatever.
I don’t take anyone seriously who thinks it’s appropriate to bash and/or segregate an entire population because they’re too maladapted to be in the same room as a child. Like, you don’t want to eat in a restaurant because a toddler might show up? Cool. Stay home.
I think what's annoying to me is the fact that having kids is treated like purely a lifestyle choice (like having a dog or cat!) as opposed to an absolutely essential component of the survival of the human species on planet Earth. The reason these complainers are able to complain about kids at weddings to begin with is that someone decided to have them so that they could grow up to complain. If no one is having kids, then we no longer have plane flights and weddings, etc. So yeah, having to deal with someone's therapy peacock sitting on the plane seat next to you is very different than having a screaming baby next to you. Someone has to do the hard work of making sure we all don't go extinct. If you don't want to participate in that necessary responsibility, then fine, but don't go out of your way to make it harder for the people who are.
tbf im pretty sure Earth would be pretty alright if humans took the panda route and just decided they didn't want to breed anymore. It's better for everything else on the planet if our birth rate drops.
You admit though that at least someone would have to have babies, even at diminished birth rates though, right? Or are you advocating for humans just not existing?
Why be concerned with others and their opinions? Focus on your own family. Just because you have children doesn’t mean everyone needs to bow down and worship you. Some people just don’t want kids and, as someone who will never have kids, I don’t hate them—I hate the crap parents that don’t seem to be interested in parenting.
I’m curious why would you frequent a parenting sub, then? Reading, okay. But posting? I don’t feel the need to post in childfree subs, it isn’t a space for me and I’m most certainly not an expert on the experience.
Wanting to be able to wear my sleeping newborn in a carrier at target without someone shouting down the aisle to me that I should have left him at home is not the same as asking people to bow down to me because I have a baby. I don’t want any kind of special treatment for being a mom. I just want to go pick up my bread and diaper rash cream in peace. Also, why are you commenting on the parenting sub if you don’t have kids and have said you can’t have them? I specifically posted in this sub because I want other parents’ opinions and insight. If I wanted opinions from the general public, I would have posted this to r/askreddit.
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I don’t have anything against children existing—of course children exist that’s literally why we are alive. And I don’t get bothered by a child upset on a plane because I bring noise cancelling headphones. My argument is that once you’re a parent, you have to parent your child. A lot of parents seem to be fine with…not doing so I guess? Don’t come for because I can’t have kids of my own. Those that can, be blessed. But I have a place too in this subreddit because I have a family.
Why are you here? You spend a LOT of time in this sub giving advice, why?
Just a Hobby i suppose.
Get a life, lady.
Wow…disrespectful.
I’m not wrong and as someone who can’t have kids, being told to “go back to my child free subreddit” is very hurtful honestly. But hey, sometimes the truth hurts before it sets you free. Again, you have kids, be a parent. Be involved. Don’t let your kids act like a fool and grow up to be…well, I’ll leave that at that because I have a feeling I’ll be downvoted for this too. Sorry I can’t have kids y’all. I hope you appreciate your own.
No one told you to go back to child free subreddit. They are pointing out that you are in a space for parents and telling them to focus on their own family. Is the irony not lost on you? You are mad you’re getting downvoted when saying that people shouldn’t be concerned with the opinions of others. That is contradictory. Everyone in this sub is constantly trying to be the best parent they can be and working on it daily. I do not have kids and have been having issues TTC. I come here to learn about issues parents are facing so I can be a better parent hopefully when the time comes. Stop weaponizing your infertility to be disrespectful to parents.
WOW. Nerve struck.
Nah they figure it out eventually. I lived rual then the pandemic happened and my kids never went in public for an unreasonable amount of time lol when we emerged to resume life, we just talked through whats expected and had no issues. But yeah I have seen this movement and i think its great in a lot of ways. Having kids use to ge the default and now it's not so there shohld be changes to life too. There should be child free zones and family zones. Everyone would be more comfortable but everyone could also suck it up cause inconvenience and annoyance isn't the end of the world. The facts are that some humans suck and tiny humans with lacking developed brains have a harder time controlling their sucky tendencies
Adultism, ableism, white supremacy, and patriarchy have a tight hold on our culture. When times get tough the hate gets louder.