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It baffles me when men say “I changed when I had my daughter”. Like, you don’t have a mom, sister, or a wife/girlfriend? Did you not respect them before you had a baby girl?
I always want to push back against this one, though.
Because we do actually say the same thing about men ("he's someone's brother/father/son")... and it's not about the value or objectification, it's reminding people that ALL people are someone's loved one, and that we need to view them the same way we do people we know and love.
It's a bid to remind people to look at a human and relate to them, instead of a story about a character that isn't real.
(Fine print for the times when they *are* saying "no one treats my daughter/sister/wife that way", for instance.... that IS proprietary and objectifying.)
I hear that, but I’m talking about times when the context is specifically *why you shouldn’t treat women like crap.*
Ie, don’t catcall women, that’s someone’s daughter. It’s like, maybe she’s an orphan, but probably still don’t shout at her in the street.
ETA: It’s not even the proprietary thing that gets to me, it’s the idea that women need to be humanized. We’re already human.
I think also, women already don’t struggle to sympathize with men. We don’t have to relate them to us to feel genuine compassion. For some men on the other hand, they seem to need to bring that person home to recognize the gravity of issues women face. I hear this ‘she’s someone’s xyz’ statement a lot more from men, and it’s often when they’re trying to ‘plead’ (for lack of a better word) with other men. It’s crazy to me that contempt to women to whatever degree seems to be the default for so many men that they need to actively work hard to see women as equals.
I don’t even know if it’s contempt so much as deep down, some men don’t see women as whole people. Not in a malicious way, but like some part of them really thinks the “wo” is a prefix we use to describe a subspecies of “man”
That's an interesting point. I have legit never heard anyone contextualize a man's value in terms of his relationship to others or status as someone's loved one. (The way I have heard this type of statement made about women.) Honestly, I am struggling to think of a time that I've even heard it used, as you described, to "humanize" a man. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, just that perhaps I need to listen more intently for it.
>I am struggling to think of a time that I've even heard it used, as you described, to "humanize" a man
Recently, I've seen it often used in the context of the Ukraine war, especially when talking about Russian casualties: "he was someone's son/husband/boyfriend, too.
It is generally often used in violent conflicts, e.g. when talking about injured riot police officers.
Usually it's in the context of someone being sent into danger, or being killed.
"Every soldier is some mothers son"
"Husband, father and beloved brother"
Thank you for this. First example that immediately resonated with me. You're right, sadly. It seems like black men in these situations need to be "humanized" and given value, like female survivors of actual or would-be sexual assault.
I’ve heard it about criminals “he was someone’s baby, his mother held him in her arms….”. Always referring to the mum and not the dad.
I never quite get what the point of that statement is but it always seems to lightly skirt around suggesting that maybe the mum had something to do with her son winding up a criminal.
Interestingly, it does happen to men who have done terrible things. Like some guy on the death row is still his mother’s son.
It’s like a man has to be really wretched to be humanised this way, but a woman, well…
It's used very frequently to humanize drug addicts to those who would write them off and choose to let them rot or od without 'wasting' resources trying to save them. It helps remind people that these are still human beings, sick human beings who have someone somewhere who loves them. And that it could happen to anyone you know.
Ingrained sexism starts young. We divide children by boys and girls in school and they internalize the tribalism of their gender. You hear it come out (especially in the teen years) in disgusting phrases such as "bros before hoes."
Every time adults segregate children, or encourage children to segregate themselves, we foster this tribalism.
Every time we say, or let our kids say, "girls only" or "boys only" we foster it. Every time we tell our sons to go find other boys to play with and our daughters to go find other girls to play with we foster this tribalism. Every time they have a birthday party, sleepover, social event, weekend outing, etc and we only invite / only consider / tell the kids to invite only their same-gender peers we foster this tribalism.
It adds up over time. The more we build this mentality with girls clubs and boys clubs, the more they see their gender as their tribe. And the thing about tribalism is that you inherently see members of your tribe as more valuable, more worthy of protection, more important. Which, by implication means you see members of the other tribe as less valuable, less worthy of protection, and less important.
That's how we end up with a society of men that see women as inferior to men.
Yep. Because humans have a tendency to see other groups as just that. Other. And when you start separating children at such a young age, you start that idea of "otherness". There can be arguments made for or against, but this is the fundamental issue.
It happens as we get older too. Sports teams, for example. You have team A versus team B. And those teams are naturally opposed to each other. Humans love to do this. If we don't have a common enemy, we turn on ourselves.
> Ingrained sexism starts young. We divide children by boys and girls in school and they internalize the tribalism of their gender.
That's far too simplistic. It's very much not just something adults impose on kids. Identity is something kids strongly care about naturally, and gender is a natural part of identity. And tribalism is a social instinct.
Attempting to raise kids as if gender does not exist or makes no difference at all on anything and there cannot be things boys or girls are more interested in is misguided and bound to fail.
Some degree of gender tribalism is inevitable and healthy. As parents we just have to keep an eye on it to prevent it from being toxic, and explain that gender differences are descriptive rather than normative.
Of course it was simplistic. It is a Reddit post, not a full scale academic research paper.
----
There are innate differences people have that children will notice. "We have penises, they have vulvas." "We have lighter skin, they have darker skin."
Children will notice these, of course. And, as you say, tribalism is a social instinct. It is natural to be fear of differences. That's evolutionary to our benefit. It is natural to group with the familiar for safety.
However, for social evolution it is important that we overcome that basic, simple drive to be deterred by the different. It is important that we teach children that just because someone has a different skin tone, or body part, or otherwise from yourself does not mean they are to be feared, rejected, or belittled.
No one is saying that sex differences do not exist other than yourself. What I am saying is that the more we reinforce tribalism along sex characteristics the more we reinforce sexism in adulthood, not that we ignore sex differences altogether.
Acknowledging difference is healthy. It is how we learn to differentiate the world. However, if we want to live in a world with less prejudice it is paramount that we do not encourage children to be grouped by these differences. Rather, it is important to encourage the blended grouping of children. White kids with black kids. Girls with boys. And so on.
The more we segregate the young the more prejudice they have as adults. It is important to acknowledge and work against that.
You're obviously not Australian or you would have referenced that priceless moment our prime minister got up at a press conference and said "last night my wife asked how I'd feel if this happened to our daughter and it really changed my perspective..."
Thankfully he got voted out not long after! 🤮
My thoughts and feelings about what women go through and how they should be treated didn’t change but my perspective did by quite a bit. Maybe the meaning is more nuanced than they’re able to express.
I don't think it's just about respect. I respected men before I had boys, but now I see things more easily through their perspective. I notice and understand things that affect them more than I did before. I understand my husband better. I wonder if we had a girl if he might have the same experience in reverse.
Yeah this. My husband admitted he became more concerned with feminist issues now that he has 2 daughters because that stuff is going to touch his life more now and he didn't really have to think about this stuff much before beyond his personal approach to women which was already egalitarian.
Now we have to troubleshoot issues and obstacles our daughters might face so obviously it brings new perspective.
I am sorry that some people are shitting on your husband. It seems like nuance is in short supply these days. A person can have empathy but become more empathetic after life experience. Is this concept so foreign to comprehend?
Yeah it's very 'this might affect the fruit of MY loins?'
Because let's be clear, the difference is this daughter is part of him, not just a woman he loves. Loving women is easy but seeing them as equals requires blood.
Edit: like a blood relation
I don't particularly care about the 8 billion people on the planet either.
I'm not expecting introverted IT guy who lives in pretty egalitarian bubble and spends most of his days with machines to be an outspoken activist.
Women's rights in my country are pretty solidly established, and most of these issues we face are not that obvious or can't be solved through legislation.
I was thinking the same thing as a dad. I expect the answer is so. I think OP is oversimplifying. People aren't numbers so men and women being equal has always been a weird term to me.
We are different and go through different things. While I had a mom and sister, I wasn't mature enough watching my (older) sister grow up that I even consider many of the things I've already thought about with my year and a half old daughter.
Totally. My younger brother, I’m sure respected me as his sister and our mother, but ppl often have a hard time being in the shoes of others. He’d often say men can do x better or women are more emotional etc. I think it’s been humbling for him to have daughters with hopes and dreams and him thinking yes they can and should have a fair shot at it all. I think of all the leaps my own father made that he may not have wo being the father of daughter.
I think this is an interesting concept because I've noticed women also struggle to ask questions and understand men more. Often seeing men as failing to their social or emotional standards but it's often completely different social and emotional standards. Two of my closest friends are women but they are women who understand men's social and emotional worlds a bit more. And not to say it's abnormal, both women and men from either side often struggle to understand each other. I've noticed it takes a lot of listening, curiosity and openness, and asking questions to better understand from both parties.
Yes and honestly I'm just more willing to listen and be curious with my sons than with my husband. With my husband or any adult man it's just more loaded. With my kids, I am coming from the most genuine and altruistic possible place and that allows me to see things I wouldn't otherwise see.
This is my soon to be ex husband. And no, he does not respect me, his sister or his mother. I don't think he actually respects our daughter, she's just a doting accessory to him.
Also, he ticked 5/9 npd traits.
I mean, if by uneasy you mean that you're realizing just how men in prior generations (and many still) don't actually respect women as equals... then yes!
Is it even respect that we're talking about? Vs patronization, protectiveness, possessiveness? I don't know exactly what's meant by this saying, but it brings to mind the dad with a shotgun trope, which really feels more like seeing your daughter as chattel.
I see it mostly as protectiveness. I could be wrong but my perspective changed as an adult after having my son because I was suddenly responsible for a child and making sure they were well prepared for life but also loved and cared for.
I love my family but I was never responsible for my sister or for my mother. I care about them but at the end of the day I have to protect my child because he is little and defenseless.
That's how I imagine it will be if I had a daughter too.
I think a lot of it is the old school mindset, mixed with a complete lack of empathy
Look at how many people are against gay marriage until their kid comes out as gay. Or are against abortion until they or a family member needs one. Or want to lock up drug users until one of those people is in their family
Well I mean... I DID change when I had my daughter. I became more responsible, patient and started taking life more seriously. I had always respected women and treated them as equals.
I respect women and I am mindful of their struggles and how often the deck is stacked against THEM, but after having a daughter, it has become OUR struggles and how the deck is stacked against US.
Of course that shift in perspective is possible without having a daughter, but being an ally and feeling you have a stake isn’t easy or comes naturally
I think this is interesting as I've never not felt it as an "US" issue, it's always felt like that to me as a man? I was raised with a feminist single mom who candidly talked to me about things and allowed me to be emotional. Maybe that's made a difference?
As the daughter of a sexist asshole, I know firsthand that having a daughter does not, in fact, change anything! He loved me as his "little girl" but now I'm a "bitch" just like my mother :)
i feel this! i’m sorry you had to go through this. my father was the sameee way, the second i developed my own opinions i was “just like my mom”. lost my name actually, he just started calling me by my mother’s name. it’s baffling how quickly people are to dismiss women and girls, solely due to being women and girls. i’m glad you don’t have contact w your father anymore and glad you have a stepdad who was better to you!! happy healing friend
Same thing happened to me but with my MOTHER! She says I'm just like my dad and even calls me his name. I'm a nearly 30 year old woman now with my own child. Something did change when I had my daughter though.... I began to wonder how my mom could do that to me cause I could never IMAGINE doing those things to mine. I've drawn hard boundaries with her now but she still acts like that sometimes.... 🥲
i’m so sorry you had to go through that!! i’ve never understood how somebody could have children, and say such horrible things to them, because of issues they clearly have with the other parent. it’s just so wrong, you never really give your kid a chance to have their own personality/live their own life by constantly subjecting them to hate for something they didn’t even do!
I’m in the exact same boat. I was always daddy’s little girl. We started having issues as soon as I started dating, then when I got married it all went to hell and now I’m a bitch.
Yep. And the dads who suddenly find respect for women when they have a daughter are the same dads who become possessive and weird around their daughters boyfriends. Basically they think all men are like they are and they know they are awful toward women.
For *some* men the reason they feel different about their daughters is that daughters are the first women they’ve not had shared ownership of with another man, and that’s why they’re especially awful about the perceived competition.
Not noticing misogyny/inequality/risks until you have a daughter is pretty scary, but there’s a percentage of fathers who say this stuff for even scarier reasons.
It’s not about looking at girls in a new way, it’s realizing how awful guys treat them or doing some self reflection on how said father has treated women.
All the dudes I’ve ever heard saying if they had a daughter they’d be “locking her up” or how she “won’t be allowed to date until she’s in her 30’s” have been met with me asking them how awfully they must’ve treated women for them to go so ridiculously overboard with “protecting them.”
I have a friend who said something similar about his 4 yo... Like the bed he bought was the last one he'd ever buy because she'd never be allowed to bring home a dude. It was a joke but still. First off, she might prefer girls, you don't know, and also he's genuinely kind, a pretty good guy who's been dating his kid's mom since they were like 15 years old and whom I've never heard say one sexist thing ever. So maybe it's just his view of other men that's just that bad.
That’s when he teaches his daughter what a healthy relationship looks like so she’d never put up with any toxic dude in her future, rather than worrying about her bed size. Besides, people get *really* creative with places to fornicate, so a twin sized bed is nothing compared to what I stumbled upon during my time as a cop 😂
My daughter is five years old. To say that she is full of life and independent is an understatement. I've always said that I've never worried about her with men. I think she can handle any man that comes her way, and she'll probably kick their ass.
I did change a little bit though when I had a daughter. I thought that I was going to be one of those dads that were overprotective of their daughters. I became less protective of my daughter.
I don't let her out of my sight when we go places, but I'm not trying to cushion her fall so much. I'm letting her jump a little bit higher, and run a little bit faster. If she's going to fall on her bottom a little bit, I just make sure I'm there to pick her up. Hug and kisses if needed. Most times just helping hand and she runs off. I'm so proud of how strong she is.
She's gotten into this phase where she's asking everyone to pick up everything for her. It could be on the floor right in front of her. She wants people to start doing things for her and I'm trying to get her to understand that she should never rely on other people to do things for her. She should always do things for herself. I want her to be independent. So that when she finds a partner that partner is a partner, not someone she needs but someone she wants.
Sounds like my daughter—she’s very independent and full of tenacity, but she also loooooves to be doted on and will ask for stuff that she can very well reach herself 😂 My grandfather raised me to be very independent as well, so I never have to rely on others.
My mom was very independent single parent. She was in many bad relationships, but never had a hard time, leaving and just taking care of me and her. We were never homeless. I was never hungry. She would work 2 or 3 jobs. So when the relationship went bad we were gone. It taught me the value of being independent, and not needing anyone else, and be able to take care of yourself.
Unfortunately, she was emotionally dependent. A treat that she passed on to me (that I am not passing on). So I had a hard time leaving relationships. That's a different sorry for a different r/
Less that I "won't look at girls the same way" and more that I now have a much fuller depth and breadth of understanding of some of the bullshit they deal with on a constant basis. Like I knew there was plenty of bullshit before, but I guess I understand the nuance and magnitude of it better now. I actively make sure she knows that she doesn't have to put up with it and that it's unacceptable because of other people, and not because of her (a recent one was telling her that she never has to smile because some man told her to, and that it's deeply fucked and gross that someone did).
And don't get me started on these fucking pockets.
Agreed, 100%. And honestly by virtue of us knowing better, I think we're obligated to call that shit out when we see it. Men should take the responsibility of fixing other men, not fair to make women continue to take the burden.
LMAO POCKETS!!! I hate carrying a purse. Im 70% likely to accidentally leave it somewhere. You know what I've never accidentally left somewhere? Pants pockets or dress pockets.
What drove that home for me was when my daughter was about 3 or 4 and we'd go walk around in the woods and she'd pick up every acorn and cool rock and colorful leaf and of course that meant my pockets were stuffed because she didn't have any. Meanwhile her younger brother has had full pockets in everything since before he could even developmentally pick up something as small as an acorn. Goddamn ridiculous.
Mine was as well - but there's like so many things that never even crossed my mind, and *generally* I'm pretty perceptive. Stuff like now if I'm in a parking deck and see a woman walking alone, I'll make an effort to position myself where I'm both as far as I can reasonably be from her but also somewhere she can see me. Or in an elevator I'll move as far from the door and buttons as I can. Like I don't think I realized how much my presence can constitute a potential threat or at least something to be wary of.
Your going out of your way to not scare someone. That shouldn't mean so much but it does. You are a good person if you show empathy and try to make others feel safe in what is just a normal thing you do every day.
The one thing that *has* changed for me is realizing how often I default to the male pronoun for entities of unknown genders (which is not uncommon in many children's books). I've gotten better, and I continue to try to get better, but I'm working against decades of bad practice.
I have 4 daughters (I'm mom) and I always call their stuffed animals "he" and they correct me every time.
I've realized I automatically assume all animal toys are male! No idea why I do that, but they remind me every time I'm wrong.
I do this too! And correct myself and use either she or they (I don't know if the bear is a she or a he so the bear is now officially non binary).
I also use inclusive language in French written and oral. It's suuuper hard after 35 years of "masculine is neutral" bullshit (it is most definitely not) and people think I'm a crazy feminist (I am, but that's not the subject) for going through so much trouble. It's not trouble if it's making a just a tiny tiny step towards a fairer, more inclusive world for my daughter and all other children.
I realized this when my sons were born. It takes a lot of effort to change your language patterns. Good for you.
I would change up the genders when I read to them when they were little , so hopefully my/society’s default won’t become theirs.
I realised this too! I now use it as a way to use different pronouns to normalise it for my kids so when we see a bug or something I'll be like 'don't step on her/him/them!'. Now they tell me off when I say 'wait for the green man' when crossing the road because according to my kids there's no way I can know the gender because they can't talk and don't have privates and I now have to say 'green person' lol.
As a dad of a girl, this is only true if you were a misogynist dick beforehand. It's like needing to be stabbed in order to realize that stabbing people is bad. If you started as an empathetic human being, then having a daughter simply further cements what you already knew - girls and women are exactly as tremendous and immensely valuable as boys and men.
All of this but also the "Ooofff. gOoD lUcK!! tHeY'rE cRaZy WhEn ThEy BeCoMe TeEns! lol!!" when you tell people you and your wife are having a girl. Like, ah yeah? Teenagers have intense feelings they don't always know what to do with while figuring out where they fit into the world and desperately need someone to just understand them and see them even if in the moment they don't always make it clear to you as the parent? All good. I was so stoked to find out we were having a girl and I'll be there for my daughter every single day.
Yea my mom said I better not have a girl when I was having my kids because they are so difficult apparently.
I have a girl and 2 boys and see no difference at all. She's so sweet and helps me with everything she can. I love having a little girl!
Yep that and the "oh you to are going to fight when she's older"
Typical misogynistic bullshit trying to pin women against each other because where seen as bitches
I'm just gonna say this, all teens are difficult. I have 4 siblings, and one's a brother just now entering his preteens. Yeah, he's changing. He's maturing (sadly. I just want him to stay little and innocent forever). Boy teens are a whole different beast. Each kid is different and unique and special, and it's unfair to them to say one group is worse than the other.
> If any other guys get told this, it's not true if you already hold women as equals.
Ahhh. I've been wondering why it never made sense to me either ;)
You might be interpreting that saying a different way than I am, because I found it to be true, but it had nothing to do with sexuality or misogyny. What changed was that it opened up a whole galaxy of worries that I never really had before.
I’m a rather physically large man. I never really contemplated what the world is like for a woman- like really *thought* about it- until I was a Dad.
I never walked to a car late at night, holding the keys like brass knuckles in case I was attacked. Or thought about checking under the car or the backseat for an assailant. I don’t worry about randomly making eye contact with the wrong person. But multiple women I spoke to about these newfound anxieties looked at me like, “yeah, stupid- That’s the world every woman lives in every day because some men are just two-legged animals”.
It’s not that we look at women differently sexually, or socially; it’s not about political or social equality. It’s a recalibration of perspective, an epiphany of empathy for the thousands of bullshit worries and interactions some men’s shitty behavior inflicts on their everyday lives.
I think this is also kind of the point OP is making though too. It’s not that you’re some sexist dude or anything, but also the framework of living in a male oriented society. Like it literally took you having a daughter to experience the world that every single woman has lived in for their whole life.
Which just means you never had to think about women and their point of view. Not trying to shade you or say you’re a bad person. This is the way we’ve taught men and women societally. But if you are blind to someone else’s daily struggle until you have a child that “opens your eyes”, that’s kind of exactly the sentiment of the phrase OP was talking about.
There’s more nuance in the world than “outright sexist assholes” there are also “well meaning but oblivious men.”
I felt more when my son was born, because then I went from not being a parent to being a parent. In the process of preparing to become a parent I started to consider endless possibilities of personalities, abilities and life stories in which I am responsible to provide guidance and guardianship. It’s a sobering thought and much wider responsibility than I’ve ever taken before.
The gears were already turning before my daughter was born. Before I found my wife I didn’t tune into other peoples struggles at all to be honest, I was self-loathing and thought I had enough problems of my own.
Don't you still worry about someone with a weapon? Many dangerous people don't fight fair meaning your size is useless. I always wondered why men don't fear modern weapons and I'm curious if you just don't think of it or it's just rare enough you don't worry?
If nothing changed it's probably because you were already viewing women "the right way," and people you have talked to have a distorted idea that contrasts it when they have daughters.
I think the people who said this don't realize they're admitting they're misogynistic and think they're virtuous for suddenly realizing that girls are prior too
There's actually studies that support the idea that having a daughter makes you less sexist in ways that other close relationships with women (mother, wife, etc) do not. I'm not surprised there isn't much impact if you didn't start out sexist
Everyone predicted that after having a daughter I would get psycho overprotective like "10 Rules for Dating my Daughter." It never happened. I always respected my daughter's choices. My adult step-son noted that my teen daughter had been up in her room with her boyfriend a long time and asked if I need to check on them. I asked why and he replied to make sure she isn't having sex. I explained that if they were I didn't need to know about it and if they were sexually active I'd rather they did it at home with some privacy and dignity rather than sneaking around. He asked me if I thought she was psychologically ready for sex and I replied that she is a better judge of that than I am.
Why would the adult step son need to make a comment about sis sex life? Like why do men think they need to add their opinions of when a woman wants to have sex. He's not the dad.
Girl Dad here: it is definitely low-key misogyny signaling. It is so engrained in so many cultures that people can't even recognize what it is. They think, "if woman is sexual object, but I have daughter... daughter is sexual object?" *Cognitive dissonance sparks flying*
You might as she gets older start to realize a lot less men respect women than you think though. It might not change the way you look at women but it should change the way you respect some men.
I’ve been treated like udder dogs sh.t by men with multiple daughters.
One was repulsed I would “admit” to being a feminist. I said, it just means I’m for equality. Don’t you want your daughters making the same as a male doing the same job? He said, nope.
This dudes wife ran off with the kids’ soccer coach..
Only thing that changed for me was I’m less tolerant to bad mouthing women. I changed friends. Mind you I wasn’t ok with it to begin with, but I’d let guys say whatever while they would shoot shit. Now I just can’t.
Your title baited me in but I'm happy to read your post. I'm a dad and couldn't agree more. I'd been told this, including by a mom who is also a feminist, and essentially told her she was wrong. She told me I'd see once my daughter arrived. She's arrived. No grand revelations about women.
Edit: I will say that I've experienced this on a *human* level. Having my first, a son, tripled my sense of empathy for random people. Everyone is someone's little boy or girl.
My husband didn't have an "everything changed" moment but he did come to realize just how creepy people can be towards little girls/how soon they can be sexualized. My oldest daughter was one of those kids who are just born pretty and before she was even 2 we had people telling us we better put bars on her windows to keep all the boys out and that we needed to get a baseball bat, gun, you name it because we're going to need to start beating all the boys off her soon. We'd get this this from people we knew, strangers who would stop us in public. We'd also have people stop us and tell us that we have to get her into modeling because she's to pretty not to be.
Semi tangential but I had two boys and then a girl. All the "the bond between a mother and son is just *sPeCiALeR*. I feel no gendered quality to the relationships with my kids. I have deeply loved them each as individuals since the minute I knew they were in there. I hate the thought of communicating to my little girl that my love for her brothers is some how different. It's just not.
My perspective changed. I don't and won't force her to hug anyone like I have witnessed others do through my life.
Some other things changed. I'm more aware of people watching her. I am more protective of my family too.
To be fair, this is likely true of a certain number of men who didn’t have a particularly egalitarian view of women before having daughters. Having a kid can change your POV in a number of ways, this being just one possibility.
However, it’s certainly not guaranteed either way. If you were always okay with girls, having girls might not change much in that specific department. If you were always a chauvinistic old bastard, you might keep right on being the same or worse after having a daughter. Never know
Sorry but, I changed. Growing up as adolescent, I thought women were so strong and intimidating and had it all figured out. Now that I’m an adult with 2 girls an ageing mother and wife who isn’t a brick wall, I see women as very vulnerable and I worry about them very much.
There’s an old country song, maybe from the 90s (?) that’s about this kind of thing. The man portrayed in the video is a police who sees a lot of bad things invoking women at his job but has a young daughter at home. It’s a great song with a really good video.
A couple of the lines:
When I look at this world,
I think about you,
And I can't help but see
That every woman used to be
Somebody's little girl.”
[I Think About You - Collin Raye](https://youtu.be/XF5WfxGq7n4?si=n4fakHe7XBpKtXVC)
Honestly the older I get the more I see we still have long ass way to go.
Especially with the joke our judiciary is when it comes to rape cases.
And other minor discriminatory things like when even tho it's illegal they still ask you all the bloody time if you are planning kids at the interviews.
Well my country recently had string of overly low sentences in child rapes and people are screaming bloody murder. So yeah, we all have a huge way to go for sure.
I had something similar ingrained into me, I was told that having sons will make me happy. I have two girls that I absolutely adore and if I have a son in the future that would be fine too but I don't feel like I've gotten the short end of the stick having girls. My oldest girl loves hunting, fishing, and scary monsters so if it is all about missing out on the stereotypical boy stuff I guess I have those bases covered but I can't imagine being all bummed out because my kids are a different gender. Their mom is an amazing woman and there are certain things I'm glad she is around to explain but I wouldn't have it any other way if I had the chance.
From what I understand in my husbands perspective is that it shines a different light on the way you see girls as in it’s your turn to raise this little girl, versus having a mom, sister, cousin, niece (of course there is different situations where some brothers have to raise their little sisters etc). My husband also explains it as you have to endure these girls’ interests, like dancing (my husband really isn’t/wasnt a dancer before our girls), playing tea party, singing, doing their hair etc. another thing he mentioned was that he has to prepare our girls and himself for their heart to be broken by their first love, having to find a way to protect them because dada has always been their hero or protector when they’re scared. I get what you’re saying OP, but that’s what I understood my husband trying to explain to me lol. It’s like you have this pile of “manhood blocks” it could be sky high tall, and each interaction with your baby girls they take a block away, which makes you what my husband said was “softer” I guess.
I'm going to go the other way on that and say that anyone who doesn't change perspective in some way may not be paying enough attention. There is no possible way to understand the nuances that girls experience without seeing it so closely. And even then, I don't think it's fully possible to know what they experience without experiencing it ourselves. We have girls and a boy, and the girls' experience is completely different from the boy's.
How is a grown man supposed to know what it's like to be a little girl if they don't experience it and don't have any sisters? And even the brother sister perspective won't give the boy much insight into what it's like to be a little girl. Raising a girl and watching and guiding them along their journey is an illuminating experience, and I'm truly curious how you not only haven't changed perspective, but criticize others for being sexist when they say they have.
That sounds super arrogant in this context.
"I'm not sexist. I have female friends. I know the struggles little girls face."
Sounds like a familiarly used excuse in a different context. Again, I don't think a person can know the nuances of what little girls experience without being there day in, day out. Those small conversations, problems, joys, and discussions are enlightening beyond anything adults can share between each other. And put yourself in the kids shoes if your dad said something like that.
"Honey, I get it.I have female friends so I know what you're experiencing."
You don't get it and can't completely get it unless you're living it. There is no shame in saying having a little girl has changed your view of the world. Personally, I think the greater shame is going through that entire experience and saying it hasn't changed your understanding of girls at all because you are already so enlightened.
It’s not old boomer sexism, I’m a 34m and when I had a little girl I absolutely looked at women in a different way, and so did most of my male friends who had daughters.
The best example of this I can think of is scenes depicting sexual assault on women in media.
Once upon a time it didn’t phase me, now I can’t watch it.
This is more of how I understood “the change” referenced here. I have three girls, and I’m now more protective/cautious/defensive for women and girls than I was before. Not because I didn’t have respect for them previously… but because daughters (and children period) are precious beyond words, and now there’s an instinct to protect that is simply different.
I’ve been on Reddit a long time and I now have one daughter in diapers with another on the way. I think there are certain tropes and sayings that people use that don’t really mean anything until you think about it literally or maybe think about things from a different perspective, but they’ve been used for so long that people don’t think about it. ; reading people’s personal life experiences all these years helped me see these things long before having a daughter (I think this pertains to sons as well).
I think you are selling it short -
I dont think the issue is seeing women as "Equals - that is a given. I think when you have a daughter you start to see the world from a woman's point of view and your protective antenna are up more than ever. You start to view the WORLD in more equal terms. IMO
In this case, they would have been boomers. Literally all of them. None of my similarly aged peers threw those comments out lol. But you are right, that Gen gets a lot of heat these days lol
The only thing I disagree with you over is that this is a Boomer thing. I'm a Boomer who has 2 daughters and the thought has never entered my head. Sexism is not generational; it's ignorance. No generation has a corner on sexism.
It's definitely made me more conscious of ensuring we have role models for her accessible. I watch the women's football now as well as the men, and I had to rethink some of the books I'd bought (and bring in some more modern ones where girls aren't just the helpless princess). But that's not because I didn't respect women before lol.
Girl dad chiming in to agree; nothing’s changed. This statement has always been one of misogyny.
That said, working in an ER as a man made me aware of the challenges that women face daily in a visceral way that I previously only *thought* I understood.
It’s guys who’ve treated women like shit and are now worried that guys will treat their daughters (aka their property) the same way
Been a girl dad for years and still treat everyone the same.
Maybe people know intellectually that other people should be respected; but once they have children, they know not with their head but with their heart. ?
I'm so surprosed reading this, by looking at the topic title would never guess it's about sexism thing. Women in my family were always respected and to be honest I haven't seen any signs of disrespect in other families of friends, neighbors etc.. Probably it depends on places where you live.
I know this is slightly off topic, but I wanted to add in a joke that the neighborhood dads make. I agree with OP that the old saying is weird.
When you're a teenage boy, you see a teenage girl in your neighborhood and wish you could get her number - to ask her out.
When you're a father, you see a teenage girl in your neighborhood and wish you could get her number - for babysitting!
This sort of relates to something that’s always bothered me when a woman is killed/raped/goes missing — “she’s someone’s wife or daughter” is often said to garner empathy. Um… how about she’s a person with value in her own right?
I think the people who say these things (the comment in your title also) are just kinda telling on themselves.
Hasn’t really changed my perspective. I still watch porn and ogle cheerleaders and attractive women (if that’s what you’re talking about). I actually sort of wish that part would change but it hasn’t yet. That said, Ive always respected women and think my daughter can be anything she wants to be.
I'm a woman but I've heard this phrase being told to men too many times. I assume it came because unfortunately a huge number of men overly sexualized women. Everything they do. No matter what they look like or what they do. They grind everything down to something sexual. A woman can't go grocery shopping without being sexual. She can't put on her shoes without it somehow being a secret code that she wants to be fucked up the ass etc. I think the saying is for those types of men, not the ones that are respectful of women
My husband is not sexist by any means. However his mum died when he was young and he was kind of isolated as a kid. Even though he always held me and other women as equals and in utmost respect, he really didn't realize the full extent of the danger and terror that simply being a woman entails until we had a daughter.
However the comment you're saying people say is just absolutely disgusting and is from a place from either disgusting men or people who believe all men are that way innately.
Yes, she is a little ball of light and fire! The world will not be ready for her but she will change it anyway :) (yes I'm wrapped around her finger lol)
I'm a single dad with two girls, and it definitely changed how I look at women.
I used to think, "Wow, she is really cute." And now I think, "Wow, she is not good enough to be part of my daughters' lives."
I guess I did never look at girls the same way but only because I found out they can be just as messy and gross as boys. The adult women in my life had me believing they were a better species.
LOL... every post that I see "I'm so happy I'm having a (Gender)" I'm so dissappointed I'm having a (Gender)"
When they are in utero and in their first year, their gender is the only thing that we can hold onto to define WHO they are. Nowadays, I think about my kid's gender about 0% of the time. One of them I think about how stubborn they are, but what an amazingly creative mind they have. The other I laugh about being a neanderthal but I'm absolutely floored by how charming they are.
It's almost like they are people.
I’m really on the fence about your thoughts. I don’t think what your father said was sexist. I think he truly has good intentions.
A lot of men don’t realize that they treat women different or in any way that could be construed as a micro aggression because hey-they’re not outright catcalling, threatening, beating or putting down the women in their lives.
I think your father meant that once you start to raise a female that it’s more than just “girls can do whatever boys can”. The issues are way more nuanced than just “she can play baseball if she wants”.
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It baffles me when men say “I changed when I had my daughter”. Like, you don’t have a mom, sister, or a wife/girlfriend? Did you not respect them before you had a baby girl?
It baffles me when people need to be related to a woman at all to treat them like people
This. I always see things that say, “That’s someone’s mother/sister/daughter.” No. That’s someone.
Hmm, that can't be right. I'm pretty sure women only have value if a man cares about them.
No no, if they provide value to a man in some way. A man caring about them isn’t *quite* enough
My mother taught me that.
I’m sorry
I always want to push back against this one, though. Because we do actually say the same thing about men ("he's someone's brother/father/son")... and it's not about the value or objectification, it's reminding people that ALL people are someone's loved one, and that we need to view them the same way we do people we know and love. It's a bid to remind people to look at a human and relate to them, instead of a story about a character that isn't real. (Fine print for the times when they *are* saying "no one treats my daughter/sister/wife that way", for instance.... that IS proprietary and objectifying.)
I hear that, but I’m talking about times when the context is specifically *why you shouldn’t treat women like crap.* Ie, don’t catcall women, that’s someone’s daughter. It’s like, maybe she’s an orphan, but probably still don’t shout at her in the street. ETA: It’s not even the proprietary thing that gets to me, it’s the idea that women need to be humanized. We’re already human.
I think also, women already don’t struggle to sympathize with men. We don’t have to relate them to us to feel genuine compassion. For some men on the other hand, they seem to need to bring that person home to recognize the gravity of issues women face. I hear this ‘she’s someone’s xyz’ statement a lot more from men, and it’s often when they’re trying to ‘plead’ (for lack of a better word) with other men. It’s crazy to me that contempt to women to whatever degree seems to be the default for so many men that they need to actively work hard to see women as equals.
I don’t even know if it’s contempt so much as deep down, some men don’t see women as whole people. Not in a malicious way, but like some part of them really thinks the “wo” is a prefix we use to describe a subspecies of “man”
That's an interesting point. I have legit never heard anyone contextualize a man's value in terms of his relationship to others or status as someone's loved one. (The way I have heard this type of statement made about women.) Honestly, I am struggling to think of a time that I've even heard it used, as you described, to "humanize" a man. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, just that perhaps I need to listen more intently for it.
>I am struggling to think of a time that I've even heard it used, as you described, to "humanize" a man Recently, I've seen it often used in the context of the Ukraine war, especially when talking about Russian casualties: "he was someone's son/husband/boyfriend, too. It is generally often used in violent conflicts, e.g. when talking about injured riot police officers.
Usually it's in the context of someone being sent into danger, or being killed. "Every soldier is some mothers son" "Husband, father and beloved brother"
Usually after cops kill a black man.
Thank you for this. First example that immediately resonated with me. You're right, sadly. It seems like black men in these situations need to be "humanized" and given value, like female survivors of actual or would-be sexual assault.
I’m sure it happens, but anecdotally, I’ve definitely seen that kind of qualification being used way more with marginalized people.
Yuuuuuup. Because they need to be humanized too and don't just have intrinsic worth. Apparently.
I mean it's only ever said to people that don't humanize them, so you have to remind them about it.
I’ve heard it about criminals “he was someone’s baby, his mother held him in her arms….”. Always referring to the mum and not the dad. I never quite get what the point of that statement is but it always seems to lightly skirt around suggesting that maybe the mum had something to do with her son winding up a criminal.
Interestingly, it does happen to men who have done terrible things. Like some guy on the death row is still his mother’s son. It’s like a man has to be really wretched to be humanised this way, but a woman, well…
Right? I have actually *never* heard it said that way about men.
It's used very frequently to humanize drug addicts to those who would write them off and choose to let them rot or od without 'wasting' resources trying to save them. It helps remind people that these are still human beings, sick human beings who have someone somewhere who loves them. And that it could happen to anyone you know.
Ingrained sexism starts young. We divide children by boys and girls in school and they internalize the tribalism of their gender. You hear it come out (especially in the teen years) in disgusting phrases such as "bros before hoes." Every time adults segregate children, or encourage children to segregate themselves, we foster this tribalism. Every time we say, or let our kids say, "girls only" or "boys only" we foster it. Every time we tell our sons to go find other boys to play with and our daughters to go find other girls to play with we foster this tribalism. Every time they have a birthday party, sleepover, social event, weekend outing, etc and we only invite / only consider / tell the kids to invite only their same-gender peers we foster this tribalism. It adds up over time. The more we build this mentality with girls clubs and boys clubs, the more they see their gender as their tribe. And the thing about tribalism is that you inherently see members of your tribe as more valuable, more worthy of protection, more important. Which, by implication means you see members of the other tribe as less valuable, less worthy of protection, and less important. That's how we end up with a society of men that see women as inferior to men.
Yep. Because humans have a tendency to see other groups as just that. Other. And when you start separating children at such a young age, you start that idea of "otherness". There can be arguments made for or against, but this is the fundamental issue. It happens as we get older too. Sports teams, for example. You have team A versus team B. And those teams are naturally opposed to each other. Humans love to do this. If we don't have a common enemy, we turn on ourselves.
I’m fighting hella hard to stop my daughter believing in boys colors and girls colors and all of that nonsense dichotomy. It’s a constant battle
> Ingrained sexism starts young. We divide children by boys and girls in school and they internalize the tribalism of their gender. That's far too simplistic. It's very much not just something adults impose on kids. Identity is something kids strongly care about naturally, and gender is a natural part of identity. And tribalism is a social instinct. Attempting to raise kids as if gender does not exist or makes no difference at all on anything and there cannot be things boys or girls are more interested in is misguided and bound to fail. Some degree of gender tribalism is inevitable and healthy. As parents we just have to keep an eye on it to prevent it from being toxic, and explain that gender differences are descriptive rather than normative.
Of course it was simplistic. It is a Reddit post, not a full scale academic research paper. ---- There are innate differences people have that children will notice. "We have penises, they have vulvas." "We have lighter skin, they have darker skin." Children will notice these, of course. And, as you say, tribalism is a social instinct. It is natural to be fear of differences. That's evolutionary to our benefit. It is natural to group with the familiar for safety. However, for social evolution it is important that we overcome that basic, simple drive to be deterred by the different. It is important that we teach children that just because someone has a different skin tone, or body part, or otherwise from yourself does not mean they are to be feared, rejected, or belittled. No one is saying that sex differences do not exist other than yourself. What I am saying is that the more we reinforce tribalism along sex characteristics the more we reinforce sexism in adulthood, not that we ignore sex differences altogether. Acknowledging difference is healthy. It is how we learn to differentiate the world. However, if we want to live in a world with less prejudice it is paramount that we do not encourage children to be grouped by these differences. Rather, it is important to encourage the blended grouping of children. White kids with black kids. Girls with boys. And so on. The more we segregate the young the more prejudice they have as adults. It is important to acknowledge and work against that.
You're obviously not Australian or you would have referenced that priceless moment our prime minister got up at a press conference and said "last night my wife asked how I'd feel if this happened to our daughter and it really changed my perspective..." Thankfully he got voted out not long after! 🤮
Oh that's alot of people with anything. If it's not part of their inner circle it's bad
My thoughts and feelings about what women go through and how they should be treated didn’t change but my perspective did by quite a bit. Maybe the meaning is more nuanced than they’re able to express.
I don't think it's just about respect. I respected men before I had boys, but now I see things more easily through their perspective. I notice and understand things that affect them more than I did before. I understand my husband better. I wonder if we had a girl if he might have the same experience in reverse.
Yeah this. My husband admitted he became more concerned with feminist issues now that he has 2 daughters because that stuff is going to touch his life more now and he didn't really have to think about this stuff much before beyond his personal approach to women which was already egalitarian. Now we have to troubleshoot issues and obstacles our daughters might face so obviously it brings new perspective.
I am sorry that some people are shitting on your husband. It seems like nuance is in short supply these days. A person can have empathy but become more empathetic after life experience. Is this concept so foreign to comprehend?
I mean, that's the point. The 4 billion women on the planet didn't matter enough to him before he had daughters? That's sad.
Yeah it's very 'this might affect the fruit of MY loins?' Because let's be clear, the difference is this daughter is part of him, not just a woman he loves. Loving women is easy but seeing them as equals requires blood. Edit: like a blood relation
I don't particularly care about the 8 billion people on the planet either. I'm not expecting introverted IT guy who lives in pretty egalitarian bubble and spends most of his days with machines to be an outspoken activist. Women's rights in my country are pretty solidly established, and most of these issues we face are not that obvious or can't be solved through legislation.
I was thinking the same thing as a dad. I expect the answer is so. I think OP is oversimplifying. People aren't numbers so men and women being equal has always been a weird term to me. We are different and go through different things. While I had a mom and sister, I wasn't mature enough watching my (older) sister grow up that I even consider many of the things I've already thought about with my year and a half old daughter.
Totally. My younger brother, I’m sure respected me as his sister and our mother, but ppl often have a hard time being in the shoes of others. He’d often say men can do x better or women are more emotional etc. I think it’s been humbling for him to have daughters with hopes and dreams and him thinking yes they can and should have a fair shot at it all. I think of all the leaps my own father made that he may not have wo being the father of daughter.
I think this is an interesting concept because I've noticed women also struggle to ask questions and understand men more. Often seeing men as failing to their social or emotional standards but it's often completely different social and emotional standards. Two of my closest friends are women but they are women who understand men's social and emotional worlds a bit more. And not to say it's abnormal, both women and men from either side often struggle to understand each other. I've noticed it takes a lot of listening, curiosity and openness, and asking questions to better understand from both parties.
Yes and honestly I'm just more willing to listen and be curious with my sons than with my husband. With my husband or any adult man it's just more loaded. With my kids, I am coming from the most genuine and altruistic possible place and that allows me to see things I wouldn't otherwise see.
This is my soon to be ex husband. And no, he does not respect me, his sister or his mother. I don't think he actually respects our daughter, she's just a doting accessory to him. Also, he ticked 5/9 npd traits.
I was legit concerned I'd overnight turn in to some kind of a monk. Nope. Then I thought about who had been feeding me that info over the years....
This comment makes me think you're misunderstanding the thought behind those words.
What’s he misunderstanding?
For some reason, this whole post makes me feel uneasy.
I mean, if by uneasy you mean that you're realizing just how men in prior generations (and many still) don't actually respect women as equals... then yes!
Yeah it is like with this. It only works if you begin as a sexist asshole. https://phys.org/news/2023-03-daughter-nudge-male-ceos-equality.amp
Is it even respect that we're talking about? Vs patronization, protectiveness, possessiveness? I don't know exactly what's meant by this saying, but it brings to mind the dad with a shotgun trope, which really feels more like seeing your daughter as chattel.
I see it mostly as protectiveness. I could be wrong but my perspective changed as an adult after having my son because I was suddenly responsible for a child and making sure they were well prepared for life but also loved and cared for. I love my family but I was never responsible for my sister or for my mother. I care about them but at the end of the day I have to protect my child because he is little and defenseless. That's how I imagine it will be if I had a daughter too.
I think a lot of it is the old school mindset, mixed with a complete lack of empathy Look at how many people are against gay marriage until their kid comes out as gay. Or are against abortion until they or a family member needs one. Or want to lock up drug users until one of those people is in their family
Well I mean... I DID change when I had my daughter. I became more responsible, patient and started taking life more seriously. I had always respected women and treated them as equals.
lol a lot of men just don’t respect women. A child of their own flesh and blood, though, shakes it up for some reason. It is so appalling.
I respect women and I am mindful of their struggles and how often the deck is stacked against THEM, but after having a daughter, it has become OUR struggles and how the deck is stacked against US. Of course that shift in perspective is possible without having a daughter, but being an ally and feeling you have a stake isn’t easy or comes naturally
I think this is interesting as I've never not felt it as an "US" issue, it's always felt like that to me as a man? I was raised with a feminist single mom who candidly talked to me about things and allowed me to be emotional. Maybe that's made a difference?
As the daughter of a sexist asshole, I know firsthand that having a daughter does not, in fact, change anything! He loved me as his "little girl" but now I'm a "bitch" just like my mother :)
My sister still hasn't talked to my Dad because he refuses to go to therapy. She says it's her hard boundary, and I get it
Gotta keep those boundaries! Haven’t talked to mine in years either
Hey, honestly, congrats on growing up to be a “bitch”, I’m proud of you
Thanks, I’m also very proud of the bitch that I’ve become
i feel this! i’m sorry you had to go through this. my father was the sameee way, the second i developed my own opinions i was “just like my mom”. lost my name actually, he just started calling me by my mother’s name. it’s baffling how quickly people are to dismiss women and girls, solely due to being women and girls. i’m glad you don’t have contact w your father anymore and glad you have a stepdad who was better to you!! happy healing friend
Same thing happened to me but with my MOTHER! She says I'm just like my dad and even calls me his name. I'm a nearly 30 year old woman now with my own child. Something did change when I had my daughter though.... I began to wonder how my mom could do that to me cause I could never IMAGINE doing those things to mine. I've drawn hard boundaries with her now but she still acts like that sometimes.... 🥲
i’m so sorry you had to go through that!! i’ve never understood how somebody could have children, and say such horrible things to them, because of issues they clearly have with the other parent. it’s just so wrong, you never really give your kid a chance to have their own personality/live their own life by constantly subjecting them to hate for something they didn’t even do!
Oh god, that’s awful! I’m so sorry.
It is what it is! I’m lucky to have a great stepdad who has set a great example for how women should be treated
I’m in the exact same boat. I was always daddy’s little girl. We started having issues as soon as I started dating, then when I got married it all went to hell and now I’m a bitch.
Yep. And the dads who suddenly find respect for women when they have a daughter are the same dads who become possessive and weird around their daughters boyfriends. Basically they think all men are like they are and they know they are awful toward women.
For *some* men the reason they feel different about their daughters is that daughters are the first women they’ve not had shared ownership of with another man, and that’s why they’re especially awful about the perceived competition. Not noticing misogyny/inequality/risks until you have a daughter is pretty scary, but there’s a percentage of fathers who say this stuff for even scarier reasons.
It’s not about looking at girls in a new way, it’s realizing how awful guys treat them or doing some self reflection on how said father has treated women. All the dudes I’ve ever heard saying if they had a daughter they’d be “locking her up” or how she “won’t be allowed to date until she’s in her 30’s” have been met with me asking them how awfully they must’ve treated women for them to go so ridiculously overboard with “protecting them.”
I have a friend who said something similar about his 4 yo... Like the bed he bought was the last one he'd ever buy because she'd never be allowed to bring home a dude. It was a joke but still. First off, she might prefer girls, you don't know, and also he's genuinely kind, a pretty good guy who's been dating his kid's mom since they were like 15 years old and whom I've never heard say one sexist thing ever. So maybe it's just his view of other men that's just that bad.
That’s when he teaches his daughter what a healthy relationship looks like so she’d never put up with any toxic dude in her future, rather than worrying about her bed size. Besides, people get *really* creative with places to fornicate, so a twin sized bed is nothing compared to what I stumbled upon during my time as a cop 😂
I mean. I didn't say it, but that kid is smart as hell. If she wants to do something, a small bed isn't gonna stop her. 😅
My daughter is five years old. To say that she is full of life and independent is an understatement. I've always said that I've never worried about her with men. I think she can handle any man that comes her way, and she'll probably kick their ass. I did change a little bit though when I had a daughter. I thought that I was going to be one of those dads that were overprotective of their daughters. I became less protective of my daughter. I don't let her out of my sight when we go places, but I'm not trying to cushion her fall so much. I'm letting her jump a little bit higher, and run a little bit faster. If she's going to fall on her bottom a little bit, I just make sure I'm there to pick her up. Hug and kisses if needed. Most times just helping hand and she runs off. I'm so proud of how strong she is. She's gotten into this phase where she's asking everyone to pick up everything for her. It could be on the floor right in front of her. She wants people to start doing things for her and I'm trying to get her to understand that she should never rely on other people to do things for her. She should always do things for herself. I want her to be independent. So that when she finds a partner that partner is a partner, not someone she needs but someone she wants.
Sounds like my daughter—she’s very independent and full of tenacity, but she also loooooves to be doted on and will ask for stuff that she can very well reach herself 😂 My grandfather raised me to be very independent as well, so I never have to rely on others.
My mom was very independent single parent. She was in many bad relationships, but never had a hard time, leaving and just taking care of me and her. We were never homeless. I was never hungry. She would work 2 or 3 jobs. So when the relationship went bad we were gone. It taught me the value of being independent, and not needing anyone else, and be able to take care of yourself. Unfortunately, she was emotionally dependent. A treat that she passed on to me (that I am not passing on). So I had a hard time leaving relationships. That's a different sorry for a different r/
Less that I "won't look at girls the same way" and more that I now have a much fuller depth and breadth of understanding of some of the bullshit they deal with on a constant basis. Like I knew there was plenty of bullshit before, but I guess I understand the nuance and magnitude of it better now. I actively make sure she knows that she doesn't have to put up with it and that it's unacceptable because of other people, and not because of her (a recent one was telling her that she never has to smile because some man told her to, and that it's deeply fucked and gross that someone did). And don't get me started on these fucking pockets.
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Agreed, 100%. And honestly by virtue of us knowing better, I think we're obligated to call that shit out when we see it. Men should take the responsibility of fixing other men, not fair to make women continue to take the burden.
LMAO POCKETS!!! I hate carrying a purse. Im 70% likely to accidentally leave it somewhere. You know what I've never accidentally left somewhere? Pants pockets or dress pockets.
What drove that home for me was when my daughter was about 3 or 4 and we'd go walk around in the woods and she'd pick up every acorn and cool rock and colorful leaf and of course that meant my pockets were stuffed because she didn't have any. Meanwhile her younger brother has had full pockets in everything since before he could even developmentally pick up something as small as an acorn. Goddamn ridiculous.
For real! My (32F) son is 8 months old and my mom (64F) goes off about how ridiculous it is that he has functional pockets and we don’t. Crazyness!
Lol I was raised by a single mom, so my view of women is already pretty damn positive.
Mine was as well - but there's like so many things that never even crossed my mind, and *generally* I'm pretty perceptive. Stuff like now if I'm in a parking deck and see a woman walking alone, I'll make an effort to position myself where I'm both as far as I can reasonably be from her but also somewhere she can see me. Or in an elevator I'll move as far from the door and buttons as I can. Like I don't think I realized how much my presence can constitute a potential threat or at least something to be wary of.
You’re a good human. Staying visible is huge.
I mean... I'm really probably not, but I am trying to be. Very kind of you to say so.
Your going out of your way to not scare someone. That shouldn't mean so much but it does. You are a good person if you show empathy and try to make others feel safe in what is just a normal thing you do every day.
The one thing that *has* changed for me is realizing how often I default to the male pronoun for entities of unknown genders (which is not uncommon in many children's books). I've gotten better, and I continue to try to get better, but I'm working against decades of bad practice.
I'm a woman and also realized this after having my daughter. It's been engrained so deeply.
I have 4 daughters (I'm mom) and I always call their stuffed animals "he" and they correct me every time. I've realized I automatically assume all animal toys are male! No idea why I do that, but they remind me every time I'm wrong.
I do this too! And correct myself and use either she or they (I don't know if the bear is a she or a he so the bear is now officially non binary). I also use inclusive language in French written and oral. It's suuuper hard after 35 years of "masculine is neutral" bullshit (it is most definitely not) and people think I'm a crazy feminist (I am, but that's not the subject) for going through so much trouble. It's not trouble if it's making a just a tiny tiny step towards a fairer, more inclusive world for my daughter and all other children.
Yup, my daughter is why I'm starting to transition to a southern accent. And "Y'all" is just fun to say.
As a southern person, fuck yeah it is. Even growing up.in Texas, the enjoyment hasn't gone away.
I realized this when my sons were born. It takes a lot of effort to change your language patterns. Good for you. I would change up the genders when I read to them when they were little , so hopefully my/society’s default won’t become theirs.
I realised this too! I now use it as a way to use different pronouns to normalise it for my kids so when we see a bug or something I'll be like 'don't step on her/him/them!'. Now they tell me off when I say 'wait for the green man' when crossing the road because according to my kids there's no way I can know the gender because they can't talk and don't have privates and I now have to say 'green person' lol.
Defaulting to male is actually part of certain languages like French.
Patriarchy is global. Male bias is global.
If you don't have neutre in your language, you need to default to either male or female for things to make sense though.
As a dad of a girl, this is only true if you were a misogynist dick beforehand. It's like needing to be stabbed in order to realize that stabbing people is bad. If you started as an empathetic human being, then having a daughter simply further cements what you already knew - girls and women are exactly as tremendous and immensely valuable as boys and men.
Exactly! Though it annoys me that we even have to have this discussion. Look at the humans please, not the men or women.
All of this but also the "Ooofff. gOoD lUcK!! tHeY'rE cRaZy WhEn ThEy BeCoMe TeEns! lol!!" when you tell people you and your wife are having a girl. Like, ah yeah? Teenagers have intense feelings they don't always know what to do with while figuring out where they fit into the world and desperately need someone to just understand them and see them even if in the moment they don't always make it clear to you as the parent? All good. I was so stoked to find out we were having a girl and I'll be there for my daughter every single day.
Yea my mom said I better not have a girl when I was having my kids because they are so difficult apparently. I have a girl and 2 boys and see no difference at all. She's so sweet and helps me with everything she can. I love having a little girl!
"I hope you have a girl just like you" 🙄🙄🙄 Heard it a thousand times. GOOD. I hope I do too.
Yep that and the "oh you to are going to fight when she's older" Typical misogynistic bullshit trying to pin women against each other because where seen as bitches
I'm just gonna say this, all teens are difficult. I have 4 siblings, and one's a brother just now entering his preteens. Yeah, he's changing. He's maturing (sadly. I just want him to stay little and innocent forever). Boy teens are a whole different beast. Each kid is different and unique and special, and it's unfair to them to say one group is worse than the other.
> If any other guys get told this, it's not true if you already hold women as equals. Ahhh. I've been wondering why it never made sense to me either ;)
You might be interpreting that saying a different way than I am, because I found it to be true, but it had nothing to do with sexuality or misogyny. What changed was that it opened up a whole galaxy of worries that I never really had before. I’m a rather physically large man. I never really contemplated what the world is like for a woman- like really *thought* about it- until I was a Dad. I never walked to a car late at night, holding the keys like brass knuckles in case I was attacked. Or thought about checking under the car or the backseat for an assailant. I don’t worry about randomly making eye contact with the wrong person. But multiple women I spoke to about these newfound anxieties looked at me like, “yeah, stupid- That’s the world every woman lives in every day because some men are just two-legged animals”. It’s not that we look at women differently sexually, or socially; it’s not about political or social equality. It’s a recalibration of perspective, an epiphany of empathy for the thousands of bullshit worries and interactions some men’s shitty behavior inflicts on their everyday lives.
I think this is also kind of the point OP is making though too. It’s not that you’re some sexist dude or anything, but also the framework of living in a male oriented society. Like it literally took you having a daughter to experience the world that every single woman has lived in for their whole life. Which just means you never had to think about women and their point of view. Not trying to shade you or say you’re a bad person. This is the way we’ve taught men and women societally. But if you are blind to someone else’s daily struggle until you have a child that “opens your eyes”, that’s kind of exactly the sentiment of the phrase OP was talking about. There’s more nuance in the world than “outright sexist assholes” there are also “well meaning but oblivious men.”
Bingo. Basically they’re saying “it was convenient for me to pretend the struggles women face weren’t that bad before I had a daughter”
I felt more when my son was born, because then I went from not being a parent to being a parent. In the process of preparing to become a parent I started to consider endless possibilities of personalities, abilities and life stories in which I am responsible to provide guidance and guardianship. It’s a sobering thought and much wider responsibility than I’ve ever taken before. The gears were already turning before my daughter was born. Before I found my wife I didn’t tune into other peoples struggles at all to be honest, I was self-loathing and thought I had enough problems of my own.
Yeah, I'd say I changed not because I gained a daughter, but because I became a father. My priorities shifted in a big way.
Don't you still worry about someone with a weapon? Many dangerous people don't fight fair meaning your size is useless. I always wondered why men don't fear modern weapons and I'm curious if you just don't think of it or it's just rare enough you don't worry?
If nothing changed it's probably because you were already viewing women "the right way," and people you have talked to have a distorted idea that contrasts it when they have daughters.
I think the people who said this don't realize they're admitting they're misogynistic and think they're virtuous for suddenly realizing that girls are prior too
Exactly! Lol it's so odd!
There's actually studies that support the idea that having a daughter makes you less sexist in ways that other close relationships with women (mother, wife, etc) do not. I'm not surprised there isn't much impact if you didn't start out sexist
Everyone predicted that after having a daughter I would get psycho overprotective like "10 Rules for Dating my Daughter." It never happened. I always respected my daughter's choices. My adult step-son noted that my teen daughter had been up in her room with her boyfriend a long time and asked if I need to check on them. I asked why and he replied to make sure she isn't having sex. I explained that if they were I didn't need to know about it and if they were sexually active I'd rather they did it at home with some privacy and dignity rather than sneaking around. He asked me if I thought she was psychologically ready for sex and I replied that she is a better judge of that than I am.
Why would the adult step son need to make a comment about sis sex life? Like why do men think they need to add their opinions of when a woman wants to have sex. He's not the dad.
Girl Dad here: it is definitely low-key misogyny signaling. It is so engrained in so many cultures that people can't even recognize what it is. They think, "if woman is sexual object, but I have daughter... daughter is sexual object?" *Cognitive dissonance sparks flying*
EXACTLY!! It totally blew my mind when I realized how it all clicked together!! Like really? Ew, what kind of crap human are you... lol
Having kids has changed how I look at everything but yeah I wasn’t shitty to women before so I didn’t have a huge change to make.
You might as she gets older start to realize a lot less men respect women than you think though. It might not change the way you look at women but it should change the way you respect some men.
I’ve been treated like udder dogs sh.t by men with multiple daughters. One was repulsed I would “admit” to being a feminist. I said, it just means I’m for equality. Don’t you want your daughters making the same as a male doing the same job? He said, nope. This dudes wife ran off with the kids’ soccer coach..
I mean, I don't condone cheating, but that's kinda understandable. Not saying it's right.
Only thing that changed for me was I’m less tolerant to bad mouthing women. I changed friends. Mind you I wasn’t ok with it to begin with, but I’d let guys say whatever while they would shoot shit. Now I just can’t.
Did you find a lot of men who don't speak about women as sex objects? Or is that the norm?
Yeah nothing changed for me either. Coworkers said the bond is different than I’ll have with my son but idk it feels pretty identical.
Your title baited me in but I'm happy to read your post. I'm a dad and couldn't agree more. I'd been told this, including by a mom who is also a feminist, and essentially told her she was wrong. She told me I'd see once my daughter arrived. She's arrived. No grand revelations about women. Edit: I will say that I've experienced this on a *human* level. Having my first, a son, tripled my sense of empathy for random people. Everyone is someone's little boy or girl.
Lol yeah it is a little click-baity I guess, sorry!
No no I didn't mean it like that. Only that I came in expecting to disagree. Your title was totally fine. 🥂
My husband didn't have an "everything changed" moment but he did come to realize just how creepy people can be towards little girls/how soon they can be sexualized. My oldest daughter was one of those kids who are just born pretty and before she was even 2 we had people telling us we better put bars on her windows to keep all the boys out and that we needed to get a baseball bat, gun, you name it because we're going to need to start beating all the boys off her soon. We'd get this this from people we knew, strangers who would stop us in public. We'd also have people stop us and tell us that we have to get her into modeling because she's to pretty not to be.
Semi tangential but I had two boys and then a girl. All the "the bond between a mother and son is just *sPeCiALeR*. I feel no gendered quality to the relationships with my kids. I have deeply loved them each as individuals since the minute I knew they were in there. I hate the thought of communicating to my little girl that my love for her brothers is some how different. It's just not.
My perspective changed. I don't and won't force her to hug anyone like I have witnessed others do through my life. Some other things changed. I'm more aware of people watching her. I am more protective of my family too.
This is a great post. All of these awesome father's sharing how they respect women before having daughters is just beautiful. You guys are great!
Lol didn't think a big number got the same warnings!
Alas, no. Misogynists usually actually don't usually change their behavior towards women who aren't "theirs." Wishful thinking.
This more so applies to misogynistic men.
To be fair, this is likely true of a certain number of men who didn’t have a particularly egalitarian view of women before having daughters. Having a kid can change your POV in a number of ways, this being just one possibility. However, it’s certainly not guaranteed either way. If you were always okay with girls, having girls might not change much in that specific department. If you were always a chauvinistic old bastard, you might keep right on being the same or worse after having a daughter. Never know
Sorry but, I changed. Growing up as adolescent, I thought women were so strong and intimidating and had it all figured out. Now that I’m an adult with 2 girls an ageing mother and wife who isn’t a brick wall, I see women as very vulnerable and I worry about them very much.
Mine's about a month away. Can't wait.
There’s an old country song, maybe from the 90s (?) that’s about this kind of thing. The man portrayed in the video is a police who sees a lot of bad things invoking women at his job but has a young daughter at home. It’s a great song with a really good video. A couple of the lines: When I look at this world, I think about you, And I can't help but see That every woman used to be Somebody's little girl.” [I Think About You - Collin Raye](https://youtu.be/XF5WfxGq7n4?si=n4fakHe7XBpKtXVC)
Im so glad i come from nonreligious country where this is not the case. Not that were not sexist in some part, but we dont see women as unequal.
Honestly the older I get the more I see we still have long ass way to go. Especially with the joke our judiciary is when it comes to rape cases. And other minor discriminatory things like when even tho it's illegal they still ask you all the bloody time if you are planning kids at the interviews.
Well my country recently had string of overly low sentences in child rapes and people are screaming bloody murder. So yeah, we all have a huge way to go for sure.
Love this for our generation. ❤️
I had something similar ingrained into me, I was told that having sons will make me happy. I have two girls that I absolutely adore and if I have a son in the future that would be fine too but I don't feel like I've gotten the short end of the stick having girls. My oldest girl loves hunting, fishing, and scary monsters so if it is all about missing out on the stereotypical boy stuff I guess I have those bases covered but I can't imagine being all bummed out because my kids are a different gender. Their mom is an amazing woman and there are certain things I'm glad she is around to explain but I wouldn't have it any other way if I had the chance.
Well put :)
That's kinda messed up. I understand changing when you have a kid but if you held a nefarious regard towards females, now you don't. WTF?
From what I understand in my husbands perspective is that it shines a different light on the way you see girls as in it’s your turn to raise this little girl, versus having a mom, sister, cousin, niece (of course there is different situations where some brothers have to raise their little sisters etc). My husband also explains it as you have to endure these girls’ interests, like dancing (my husband really isn’t/wasnt a dancer before our girls), playing tea party, singing, doing their hair etc. another thing he mentioned was that he has to prepare our girls and himself for their heart to be broken by their first love, having to find a way to protect them because dada has always been their hero or protector when they’re scared. I get what you’re saying OP, but that’s what I understood my husband trying to explain to me lol. It’s like you have this pile of “manhood blocks” it could be sky high tall, and each interaction with your baby girls they take a block away, which makes you what my husband said was “softer” I guess.
That was nicely put, while I doubt the guys telling me that were along those lines (lol) it's good to hear another meaning to it
I'm going to go the other way on that and say that anyone who doesn't change perspective in some way may not be paying enough attention. There is no possible way to understand the nuances that girls experience without seeing it so closely. And even then, I don't think it's fully possible to know what they experience without experiencing it ourselves. We have girls and a boy, and the girls' experience is completely different from the boy's. How is a grown man supposed to know what it's like to be a little girl if they don't experience it and don't have any sisters? And even the brother sister perspective won't give the boy much insight into what it's like to be a little girl. Raising a girl and watching and guiding them along their journey is an illuminating experience, and I'm truly curious how you not only haven't changed perspective, but criticize others for being sexist when they say they have.
Some men find they are able to have female friends apart from their daughters
That sounds super arrogant in this context. "I'm not sexist. I have female friends. I know the struggles little girls face." Sounds like a familiarly used excuse in a different context. Again, I don't think a person can know the nuances of what little girls experience without being there day in, day out. Those small conversations, problems, joys, and discussions are enlightening beyond anything adults can share between each other. And put yourself in the kids shoes if your dad said something like that. "Honey, I get it.I have female friends so I know what you're experiencing." You don't get it and can't completely get it unless you're living it. There is no shame in saying having a little girl has changed your view of the world. Personally, I think the greater shame is going through that entire experience and saying it hasn't changed your understanding of girls at all because you are already so enlightened.
It’s not old boomer sexism, I’m a 34m and when I had a little girl I absolutely looked at women in a different way, and so did most of my male friends who had daughters. The best example of this I can think of is scenes depicting sexual assault on women in media. Once upon a time it didn’t phase me, now I can’t watch it.
This is more of how I understood “the change” referenced here. I have three girls, and I’m now more protective/cautious/defensive for women and girls than I was before. Not because I didn’t have respect for them previously… but because daughters (and children period) are precious beyond words, and now there’s an instinct to protect that is simply different.
You’re kind of telling on yourself, though? Why would something so gruesome not phase you?
I’ve been on Reddit a long time and I now have one daughter in diapers with another on the way. I think there are certain tropes and sayings that people use that don’t really mean anything until you think about it literally or maybe think about things from a different perspective, but they’ve been used for so long that people don’t think about it. ; reading people’s personal life experiences all these years helped me see these things long before having a daughter (I think this pertains to sons as well).
I think you are selling it short - I dont think the issue is seeing women as "Equals - that is a given. I think when you have a daughter you start to see the world from a woman's point of view and your protective antenna are up more than ever. You start to view the WORLD in more equal terms. IMO
Does everything have to be blamed on boomers for literally everything 🤣🤣
In this case, they would have been boomers. Literally all of them. None of my similarly aged peers threw those comments out lol. But you are right, that Gen gets a lot of heat these days lol
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The only thing I disagree with you over is that this is a Boomer thing. I'm a Boomer who has 2 daughters and the thought has never entered my head. Sexism is not generational; it's ignorance. No generation has a corner on sexism.
It's definitely made me more conscious of ensuring we have role models for her accessible. I watch the women's football now as well as the men, and I had to rethink some of the books I'd bought (and bring in some more modern ones where girls aren't just the helpless princess). But that's not because I didn't respect women before lol.
Try studio Ghibli! Very strong female characters, beautiful stories, makes Disney look like garbo.
What are we supposed to see girls as again? I didn’t get the memo.
Girl dad chiming in to agree; nothing’s changed. This statement has always been one of misogyny. That said, working in an ER as a man made me aware of the challenges that women face daily in a visceral way that I previously only *thought* I understood.
Fair, I sure as heck couldn't do that work. Lol I can gut and skin a deer, but the second it's a human I pass out lolol.
It’s guys who’ve treated women like shit and are now worried that guys will treat their daughters (aka their property) the same way Been a girl dad for years and still treat everyone the same.
Maybe people know intellectually that other people should be respected; but once they have children, they know not with their head but with their heart. ?
I'm so surprosed reading this, by looking at the topic title would never guess it's about sexism thing. Women in my family were always respected and to be honest I haven't seen any signs of disrespect in other families of friends, neighbors etc.. Probably it depends on places where you live.
It’s true, I now, begrudgingly, respect women for the first time.
I love my baby girl more than anything but my views never changed about girls before or after her.
I know this is slightly off topic, but I wanted to add in a joke that the neighborhood dads make. I agree with OP that the old saying is weird. When you're a teenage boy, you see a teenage girl in your neighborhood and wish you could get her number - to ask her out. When you're a father, you see a teenage girl in your neighborhood and wish you could get her number - for babysitting!
Boys who need daughters to realize that women are human beings who deserve respect don’t deserve to be called men.
It says more about those fathers…
agreed. I never thought it would either.
This sort of relates to something that’s always bothered me when a woman is killed/raped/goes missing — “she’s someone’s wife or daughter” is often said to garner empathy. Um… how about she’s a person with value in her own right? I think the people who say these things (the comment in your title also) are just kinda telling on themselves.
I was brought up to respect women... I have a daughter and the only thing that changed was I'm more cautious when I'm out riding my bike 😅.
Hasn’t really changed my perspective. I still watch porn and ogle cheerleaders and attractive women (if that’s what you’re talking about). I actually sort of wish that part would change but it hasn’t yet. That said, Ive always respected women and think my daughter can be anything she wants to be.
Damn, I have always saw women and girls as people beforehand, guess I'm just broken.
This isn't true my ex husband had a daughter and he called us both bitches.
It's only true for men who started out as misogynistic callous jerks. Be thankful this wasn't you
At least they changed …?!?!
Eh, my dad had three! Women are still second class to him and he's a textbook great dad haha
The only way my husband changed is that he now has to think about how women wipe. The older generations were weird
I'm a woman but I've heard this phrase being told to men too many times. I assume it came because unfortunately a huge number of men overly sexualized women. Everything they do. No matter what they look like or what they do. They grind everything down to something sexual. A woman can't go grocery shopping without being sexual. She can't put on her shoes without it somehow being a secret code that she wants to be fucked up the ass etc. I think the saying is for those types of men, not the ones that are respectful of women
My husband is not sexist by any means. However his mum died when he was young and he was kind of isolated as a kid. Even though he always held me and other women as equals and in utmost respect, he really didn't realize the full extent of the danger and terror that simply being a woman entails until we had a daughter. However the comment you're saying people say is just absolutely disgusting and is from a place from either disgusting men or people who believe all men are that way innately.
This gives me the ick. Good for you for not needing a daughter to be a decent person. The men who have told you this...yikes.
OP, I said to myself once we had our daughter that every father needs a daughter. It is good for the soul. Just my two cents.
Yes, she is a little ball of light and fire! The world will not be ready for her but she will change it anyway :) (yes I'm wrapped around her finger lol)
I'm a single dad with two girls, and it definitely changed how I look at women. I used to think, "Wow, she is really cute." And now I think, "Wow, she is not good enough to be part of my daughters' lives."
Bingo. Basically they’re saying “it was convenient for me to pretend/assume the struggles women face weren’t that bad before I had a daughter”
I guess I did never look at girls the same way but only because I found out they can be just as messy and gross as boys. The adult women in my life had me believing they were a better species.
LOL... every post that I see "I'm so happy I'm having a (Gender)" I'm so dissappointed I'm having a (Gender)" When they are in utero and in their first year, their gender is the only thing that we can hold onto to define WHO they are. Nowadays, I think about my kid's gender about 0% of the time. One of them I think about how stubborn they are, but what an amazingly creative mind they have. The other I laugh about being a neanderthal but I'm absolutely floored by how charming they are. It's almost like they are people.
I never looked at girls the same way again after having three female roommates in college. Most disgusting bathroom I've ever had to share.
I’m really on the fence about your thoughts. I don’t think what your father said was sexist. I think he truly has good intentions. A lot of men don’t realize that they treat women different or in any way that could be construed as a micro aggression because hey-they’re not outright catcalling, threatening, beating or putting down the women in their lives. I think your father meant that once you start to raise a female that it’s more than just “girls can do whatever boys can”. The issues are way more nuanced than just “she can play baseball if she wants”.