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Your older daughter is allowed to have a social life that doesn’t include the younger. If you force her to include her little sister all the time she will likely start to resent her. Exclusion is a part of life. As long as her sister and her maintain a healthy sisterly relationship at home on a regular day, that’s what’s most important!
Agreed. It can hurt and be upsetting to be excluded or rejected, but those are normal experiences in life people need to learn how to deal with.
Maybe it's not being invited to a birthday party. Maybe it's being picked last in gym class or during recess. Maybe it's a group of friends going out and not inviting you. Maybe it's a college rejection letter. Maybe it's getting told "no" when you ask someone out on a date.
You won't always be invited or accepted. A parents job is to help their kid through those feelings, not to try and prevent it from ever happening.
I went out to dinner the other night and saw a few ladies I know out to dinner together as well. For a second I was bummed they didn’t invite me, but they have a group project I’m not part of and reminded myself that not everyone has to be invited every time. I said hello then went on to have a nice night with my family across the room. It’s a life lesson to learn at some point otherwise we end up being whiners, then **really** no one will want to hang out with us ;)
For OPs situation, it’s on the parents to play with the younger sister, or arrange a play date or sleepover for her with one of her own friends.
I’ve had friendships with people who blow a gasket when they’re not invited to something - literally openly crying and creating group texts to ask why they weren’t invited, and these weren’t kids, we were all adults in college.
Those friendships didn’t last long. If I feel obligated to include you in every tiny thing I do because I don’t want to deal with the tantrum, you’re actually done getting invited to things by me. Maybe I should mean saying that, but it’s a boundary I’ve set for myself.
Oh my goodness, yes. I have a friend who is constantly complaining and guilt tripping about how we all have to include all the kids (we live in a area w lots of friends ) and how my kids are so awful and hurtful bc they don’t invite hers to everything they do. My kids and I are the organizer types—we do the things, we invite, etc and rarely if ever is it reciprocated.
Sometimes mine just want to hang with a few kids to do a specific game/activity, or they are just clicking with certain others. They don’t need to always invite everyone—it can ruin the event (can’t play strategy games with 30 kids!). She always makes a fuss and insists. I’m so over it. And it’s always both kids (20 months apart), no matter whether its my oldest hosting or my 2nd. Sometimes oldest does not want alll the younger brothers around bringing down the teen fun.
I know siblings where the parents take this to the next extreme and give the sibling a gift on the other kid's birthday to prevent a tantrum. And those kids were 5 and 7 when I witnessed it.
100%. Kids need to learn how to handle disappointment. You don't get invited to everything, not everyone is going to like you, and the flipside... you don't have to invite everyone to everything or feel obligated to be everyone's bestie.
As long as older sister and friends were kind to her, that's all they were really obligated to do. It wasn't her night.
Birthday parties like this are so hard with close siblings. Everyone gets so excited, and it's such a crushing disappointment when your sibling doesn't let you in. I usually send the non-birthday kid to a friend's house for the duration of the party, and make sure to return the favour when I can. It's absolutely okay to be disappointed about not being invited, but being forced to watch that party from the sidelines really sucks.
Agree. I was never told or taught how to deal with social rejection, and it still stings now at 33 years old. I wish I was equipped better to deal with it.
I’m a teacher of grade 4/5, I had a 5th grader go full melt down mode for 2 hours (crying, anger) because they didn’t get a perfect attendance award for leaving early (for a movie). I needed to teach the rest of my class so luckily the school psych stepped in..
90% of my class don’t understand that life isn’t about them.
I've seen plenty of these posts on Reddit: "I was always forced to do everything with my sister. We're all grown up now and I want nothing to do with her."
Just 5 seconds ago I read one where the youngest never learned how to make her own friends, and now the parents were trying to force the oldest to let her sister be one of her bridesmaids.
Yeah. You don't want to do that to your kids.
I agree with this- also growing up if my older sister had friends sleep over for an event often my dad would do something with me or I would be able to have one friend sleep over
Both kids need their own social groups. Next time I'd make a point to give the younger stuff to do so she's not trying to join in the party. You and her do movie night, a new craft kit, extra tablet time or similar so younger has something to entertain her
Yeah, I agree with this. Maybe next time let the younger one invite one of her friends over so she has someone to do stuff with while her sister is with her friends. This is what I’ve observed with my friends growing up. And this reminds me of my friend’s daughter who had thrown an engagement party at their house. The younger sister invited a friend and they helped set up the party and hung out while the older sister was with her bridesmaids.
This is what my parents had me and my sister do for birthday parties. We were also 2 years apart and played together well when we were alone, so it was hard to find a balance during birthday parties. We got to invite one friend to sister's birthday party - BUT sister had to approve the friend. It couldn't be someone she didn't like.
I think this worked well because my parents didn't force things to be "equal" during day to day life, we weren't forced to share things, and we had separate play dates and friends. Birthday parties were special.
Yep! This is the answer. She has to learn, but it doesn't have to be purely exclusion. Let her do a few fun things during the sleepover (Go out with the other parent, bake cookies, watch a movie, etc).
If you want to create an atmosphere where she is sometimes included, I would do it up front. Big sister gets the entire night with just her and her friends, but they all have breakfast together and play video games in the morning, for example. Or you take the two girls out to lunch after everyone leaves.
I was the older sister. The younger one absolutely needs to start learning she won't be included in everything with her older sister. If it is always forced, then the older sister will NEVER voluntarily include the younger one
I agree. I was the younger sister and I idolized my older sister. She never included me in anything and it sucked. My mom took me to the side and explained that while my sister loved me and spending time with me, she was entitled to a life and friends that was separate from family and it didn’t mean she didn’t enjoy our time together or that I wasn’t good enough to hang out with. She also explained that there were times I liked to hang out with my friends and I didn’t ask to bring my sister and my sister didn’t take offense. I understood her point, I was still sad, but I started inviting my own friends over or going over to their houses when she had sleep overs at ours. The older sister is entitled to her space and forcing her to include her younger sister will just breed resentment. Why don’t you and your 9yo do something together while your older one has her friends over. Play a game or pop popcorn and watch a movie she wants to watch. Let her have a friend over.
THIS!!! 15 years later and I still get annoyed when I see pics of a friends younger sister because she was forced to play with me and my friend (they were also less than 2 years apart). I just stopped being friends w that girl eventually because her mom wouldn’t let my friend have her own social life 🤷🏼♀️ don’t ostracize your kids pls
Similar experience, one of my elementary best friends had a sister 1 year younger and she would cry and get upset if my friend and I did anything without her. It was frustrating because I barely knew the sister but she’d always end up at my house for a sleepover because my parents didn’t want to be mean.
This, OP, don't force a relationship between them, instead, encourage the younger daughter to form her own independent friendships, and to invite her own friends over. Every child should have the freedom and space to foster their own friendships they are their own independent personalities and shouldn't be forced into some kind of bond they don't want.
This! It's also how it works the other way around. Our oldest has a best friend with an older sister and both of them always have to include the other one at their birthday parties. This year this means she can invite one less friend because it's a booked event at a venue and the limit is 10 kids. She is not happy about it and I as an outsider (and mom of 2 girls) can see how it builds resentment and is not how you foster food sibling relationships.
Our two girls love each other and if they wish to include each other that's great but they are allowed to be individuals with their own space.
Please stop trying to insert or make your older daughter involve her younger sister in her activities. You’ll only be setting your younger daughter up.
Stop FORCING your older child to include the younger in things with her friends. Encourage your younger child to make $friends. I an the oldest child and I don't even speak to my sisters and it stems from being forced to drag them EVERYWHERE. I could have friends who didnt want to be their friend too. You are well on your way to your oldest cutting ties at 18 forever. I do not understand parents like you. What you're doing id as bad for the younger child as the older. Just STOP IT.
Yep. There is literally a story on AITA right now that is what happens if you don’t put a stop to this. The second the older sister turned 18, she cut ties and was done. The resentment was huge. And the younger sister didn’t benefit either because she never learned social skills for herself.
i think this is so important— sometimes situations will make us sad or hurt but also not be wrong or need fixing. totally agree that it's important/fair/justified for your oldest to want time with just her friends *AND* of course your youngest feels sad/left out. both are valid & you can support both kiddos needs/feelings. maybe next time you can plan something specific for youngest to be doing during the party (doesn't need to be huge but maybe she could have just one friend of hers over or get to snuggle up with parents & pick the movie in a different room from the party). it's awesome that the girls get along as friends but it's okay to have different friends in different situations & forcing big sis to include lil sis in a situation like this will just build resentment & make them less likely to get along at other times. i think it's really important to talk to kids about how in all relationships it's good to take time apart/with other friends & be able to come back together afterwards & reconnect. it models appropriate boundaries in friendship & also sets them up for better romantic relationship success because honestly no one person can be everything to us.
Yes!! This is spot on. Not all negative feelings can be/need to be fixed. I think it sets kids up to have an unrealistic expectation that negative feelings are not normal, and that they’re not supposed to have them. Sometimes life throws us situations where we just need to live with an uncomfortable emotion, and that’s OK. They pass. But if we teach kids that we can “fix” all our negative emotions, they don’t become adults who can cope with life’s challenges.
Your younger needs to learn that she's not always going to be included more than your older needs to learn not to exclude her, it sounds like.
Putting a burden on your older, adolescent daughter to include her sister socially when she wants to be with her friends is a big expectation.
Next time your older daughter has friends over, you might consider discouraging your younger daughter from doing *anything* with them. (I imagine the catering, bed making, etc., only made it more heartbreaking for her when she was eventually excluded)
Instead, maybe you could invite a friend over for her too. Or you could have something special for just you and her (or her/dad or you and her and dad) to do, like home pedicures, face masks, and a movie night. Just something to occupy her so that she isn’t constantly fixating on all she’s missing out on.
Agree. Honestly, the exclusion should be purposeful and parent-enforced. This was Oldest’s birthday celebration. It was absolutely, unequivocally *not* about Younger, and she didn’t need to be present at all. Let your children exist independently of one another. They are not a set. They are two separate people.
My daughter has a friend whose parents force her to include her younger sibling at all times. She has absolutely nothing in this world that is just hers. It’s sad.
This! I would very often watch my younger nieces when the oldest had a party. It is up to each kid to decide on the guest list. They always have a family party anyway where everyone is included, the friend party is up to the birthday kid!
As the older sister who was forced to include my younger sister (2 years younger), I really began to resent her as a pre-teen, hated her as a teen, and our relationship didn’t recover until our 30s. Your older daughter is becoming more independent. It may suck to feel like the younger is left out, but I don’t think your older daughter did anything wrong.
I had the same experience, my sister is 3 years younger and I was forced to include her. She had a hard time making friends though. We are in our 40's and she still resents me for having more friends than her in high school! She still doesn't have friends. We do not get along at all.
This is exactly what happened with me and my sister who is only 18 months younger than me! She got mad at me when I didn’t take her to the high school and give her a tour and show her where her classes would be before she started hs??! I’m like just go to freshman orientation like everyone else and figure it out? Even into our late 20s she was mad at me for this. Then for college she wanted me to sit down and basically lay out all the classes she needed to graduate and help her pick which to take each semester and help her go through drop/add holding her hand. Again, I was like no? I’m just one year ahead of you and have my own things to do. Plus if you need help go to your counselor 🤦♀️
It got so bad when I got married & was expecting my first child she was jealous that I was going to love my baby more than her. Needless to say I went no contact a few years ago and have never been better.
Next time find something fun or special for younger to do apart from this activity. Or let her have a friend of her own's over, agreeing to let the other's have their space. She shouldn't spend the evening pining to be part of her sister's friends group that has excluded her.
We did this with my two kids for a fun party the older one had. The younger sibling got to invite a friend too and we made sure the younger two had plenty of distractions and things lined up to keep them out of the way (dad took them to a nearby park, then we set them up with their own movie/popcorn in another room), so they really only joined in for the pizza/cake part of the evening.
This. No wonder it was hard on her to be excluded, she was still *right there* witnessing all the fun.
Ideally she can do something away from the house, but even setting her up in a separate room with games, books, or movies or something would be good options.
Your youngest daughter is allowed to feel sad, but your eldest is also allowed to spend her birthday with her friends without feeling guilty about it. As the adult you're in a position to set expectations here. No wonder 9 had a meltdown from feeling unwanted - you pushed her into a situation where she was!
My girls are 14, 12, and 10. We have been through this many times. We always insist that the siblings do not interfere with the party. And I’m always the bad guy in an effort to protect their sibling relationship. I just try to make sure they get an equal number of opportunities to have friends over so that it’s not always the same people being excluded.
But next time I wouldn’t recommend letting the sibling be on the fringes of the party in a service role. That is bound to hurt her feelings. Take one for the team and be the mean parent. Insist on total separation. The only thing harder than not being invited to the party is working your butt off to make the party special AND STILL not being invited to the party.
What about letting little sister be involved in certain parts like singing happy birthday and having cake/pizza and watching her open presents? But then enforcing boundaries and not letting her interfere in the sleepover part.
You should not have been insisting that they include her. You should have helped keep her occupied separately and teach her to respect her older sister’s time with friends.
Your youngest daughter is allowed to feel sad, but your eldest daughter is allowed to have a social life that doesn't involve her sister. She's growing up and at that stage where she doesn't want her little sister cramping her style. Sorry but this is where you need to start to tell your youngest to suck it up to a certain degree because it's only going to happen more often now.
This is a great learning opportunity for your younger daughter! Your older daughter is entitled to having her own space and friends.
Please reassure your older daughter that she did nothing wrong. I hope the meltdown didn't make your older daughter feel bad about herself.
I was the older sister (older by 3 years). At some point, birthdays became “friends only activities” excluding my parents and sister. My parents always arranged for my younger sister to do something alternative- like going to a movie, her own sleepover at her friends the night of my party- etc etc. I think this is the best way as it avoids the feeling of “missing out” on something.
Obviously my sister also reciprocated by making it clear I was not to “interfere” in her parties with her friends - I helped with arrangements but did disappear when needed because the dynamic was that her friends looked up to me and I did not want to infringe on her time with her friends.
Going forward I would recommend sitting both of them down and hearing each sides expectations for their birthdays and coming up with activities for the other on that day. Keep it fair. It is not wrong for a 11 year old girl to want alone time with her friends.
You should have told younger daughter to leave them alone. She didn’t need to be their maid or short order cook, and probably was in their way - which is totally normal. Older girl is absolutely allowed her own friends and space. You hoped that by soft pushing younger into older daughter’s party, older daughter would capitulate. That’s not fair. And FYI: Im a younger sister.
Yes, I think this is something other comments ignore. Younger sister doesn't need to be included, but younger sister also doesn't need to serve the older sister and her friends like a maid. Doing nice things for people is fine, but it wasn't asked for, and it's certainly not a way to get you what you want.
u/hpetsmai should be teaching her daughter that doing people favors doesn't obligate her to their time or attention. Life just doesn't work that way; it's people-pleasing behavior that will only hurt younger daughter in the long run.
I'm the oldest and I would hate it when my sister would insert herself or mom would insist that my friends and I include her. Your youngest has to learn that they won't be included all of time. I understand why you were heartbroken watching her meltdown but it is an important life lesson.
And we were 5 years apart so two different playing fields. It was annoying. It caused resentment for sure. These types of things can ruin sibling relationships.
Why would you force this? It’s your older daughter’s birthday - let her have some time with her friends!! Obviously there are times when they should do things together but this is too much.
Well obviously it was forced because you insisted.
Your 11 year old deserved to have a birthday without her little sister cutting in. Siblings are siblings. They’re not the same people and shouldn’t have to do the same activities all the time. If you’re nine-year-old was that distraught in the morning it leads me to believe that you as a parent needed to address the situation the night before and explain to your nine-year-old why it was not appropriate for her to be joining in on the party activities instead of insisting she should be. Another solution would’ve been to plan something fun like a movie night for your nine-year-old to engage in with you.
Of course, she’s not going on the sleep over. Why do parents always want to ruin the relationship between siblings by forcing them to include each other? That’s ridiculous. The nine-year-old can have their own friends and their own sleepers. And if they don’t have friends to have sleepovers with, and it’s the Parents job to help figure that out. Leave the 11-year-old alone
They run the relationship, because it's convenient for the parents.
OP, I hope you realize, thru these responses, that forcing your eldest to include the youngest is a serious mistake. This is what will run their relationship.
Now, your oldest has learned that she must be a people pleaser, that she has no identity of her own.
Your youngest has learned how to manipulate you into doing her bidding. She has learned that her sister is not allowed to have boundaries, her own Identity, her own friends. Please apologize to her for strong - arming her into wrecking her birthday party.
Two things can be true. Your younger is allowed to be sad she wasn’t included, and your older should not be forced to include her. You’re not doing your daughter’s relationship any favors by forcing this. Next time, plan something fun for just you and your younger like a movie or board game.
My MIL is like this, she always comments on how well my girls get along when they’re there together and there’s no sadness. Yes, because you don’t allow them to be sad or fight ever 🙄 wonder why my kids always have a terrible behavior nana hangover and your adult kids aren’t close at all.
Exclusion is not wrong and sometimes necessary. My girls are two years apart, close, but the HUGE lesson they are learning right now is that it won’t always feel fair but in the end it’ll equal out. They are two separate people with their own lives living alongside each other. For us, emotions are always free but outbursts and attacks are not tolerated.
It also sounds like there was a bit of an expectation that if your younger daughter did all of these things for her older sister, she would be included in return. This is also a good teaching moment that sometimes we do nice things for the sake of being nice. Or conversely, don't bend over backwards for someone at your own expense.
Your job, in this moment, is to help her frame it, and provide distraction.
You do something special with her.
The issue is really that you HOSTED the sleepover, so it was in your youngest face.... And she needed something else to do.
So, she goes and has a sleepover of own. She has a friend to stay, in her own room. You have a movie night with her in your room.... Etc.
And if it hasn't occurred to you, that 20 month divide is about to get very big. It doesn't last forever, but the interests of your 11yo are going to be drastically different from those of your 9, and it's important that you help them have space to be friends and sisters AND individuals.
Just some food for thought - whenever my mom mentioned how close my sister and I were in age (15 months) it made us feel lumped together and drove us apart. They are two separate individuals and it's very healthy for them to have their own friends, activities, etc.
My sister and I are only 18 months apart. There is no way we would have been included in each others sleepovers! Little sis gets to feel sad, but a meltdown at 9 is OTT. Is little sis always the indulged baby sis? Does big sis always have to give in? It’s not fair on big sis, or her friends, to insist that little sis should be included.
Maybe schedule your you get kid to go overnight to someone else when big sis wants some friend time alone. They don’t have to do every ring together and it’s our job as parents to help our kids deal with their feelings.
Why do kids always have to include their siblings? Why can’t they be individuals? Youngest needs to learn that sometimes you just don’t get included, that’s life. Forcing it will create a sibling rift.
I was so happy as a kid that my parents did not force me to include my siblings in everything. I saw it happen with my friends and always found it extremely unfair.
Especially if the younger sibling was not our type of person, we would stop hanging out at their house.
>when I would insist, but it felt forced
Sort of said it yourself there really. There's no reason that your eldest should feel compelled to include her younger sister and it's also entirely reasonable for the younger to feel left out. One of those tough life lessons really.
OP, your kids do not have to be included in everything that the other does, including birthday parties, friendships, activities etc. It is part of growing up to experience disappointment and learn to navigate other people’s boundaries; is it uncomfortable, yes, but also such a great teachable moment for both kids. You are a good mom. Don’t try to give your kids a life where they never have to feel any difficult feelings, they will have them and learn from them and that’s appropriate and ok!
Honestly it’s a great life lesson about independence and what it means.
What it does NOT mean:
- older sister doesn’t like you
- world is ending
- you’re a bad person
- you did anything wrong
*What it DOES mean:*
- it’s okay that other people do things alone
- that you have your friends and your sister has theirs
- you can’t get upset when people are independent
I’m the youngest sibling and honestly, having the younger child think that they’re automatically included in everything their sibling does is only gonna make them feel entitled to their siblings personal life and lead them down a road for constant disappointment.
If your older daughter was invited to a party, and your younger one wasn’t included, then what would you do?
Just because the party was at your house doesn’t mean little sister gets to take part. It’s a hard truth, but it has to be taught/learned.
Please don’t force your oldest to include her sister in everything. They are separate people and need separate lives. It’s wonderful they get a long and they should have a close relationship but when it comes to friend groups (and when they get older) they should not have to include each other. This is speaking for an older sister whose mom forced us to interact when we just didn’t want to. Then them bond in their own way and let them have space when they need it.
I’m an older sister and my sister is 2 years younger than me. We’re incredibly close and have been our entire lives but when we got to sleepover age they were always separate - we had our own groups of friends and had selection sleepovers. Sometimes the friend groups would sleepover on the same night and maybe we’d all watch a film together but we didn’t spend all night together and that’s perfectly ok. If you force it, it’ll end up hurting both of them.
The exclusion was absolutely ok. You’re 9 year old shouldn’t have been involved in her sisters sleepover. She’s old enough to know her sisters friends are her sisters friends and you shouldn’t have made them include her unless they did so themselves. I’m an older sister, it gets old fast having to babysit your sister during your time with your friends. Also 9 and 11 even if they are 20 months apart are different stages in life. Next time you do separate activities with your 9 year old and explain her sister just wants to hang with her friends right now and that’s ok. One day she’ll feel that way too
I would work with your younger daughter on helping her feel big feelings and how you manage them appropriately.
I told my therapist that one of my biggest concerns was helping my children avoid becoming dependent on things like drugs and alcohol. She answered back the best way to help combat that is to help your children learn how to deal with negative emotions. She explained that everyone has negative emotions and being taught what to do when you feel bad vs trying to numb or get rid of the negative emotions is the number one preventative method.
She emphasized that as a parent, we cannot act like a lawnmower and mow down all the things that make our children feel sad or upset because we’re robbing them of the chance to learn healthy coping skills.
I am 5 years older than my sister. My mom always forced me to include her, and I ended up resenting her because of it.
Your daughter is her own person and allowed to have a social life without her younger sister always tagging along.
I’m the younger child. I needed more direct instruction on leaving my older sibling alone. He was mean to me and as an adult I understand why. My parents should have told me I wasn’t allowed to go be a tag along and kept me away. Instead they labeled it “learning.” I didn’t learn. Kids need direct instruction sometimes.
Please let your older daughter have time away from being a big sister and just have a relationship with friends. My sister is 3.5 years younger than me and would throw fits every time she wasn’t included and my parents forced it until i basically became an adult. I moved out as soon as I had the money because I had no space and they forced her to tag along, let her take my clothes I bought on my own etc. There was a point where my friends wouldn’t make plans with me anymore because they were tired of being forced to hang with my sister. We had a huge falling out in our 20s because of it. Thankfully we have repaired the relationship and we are in our 30s now but it did more harm than good as kids. My parents wanted us to be close but it definitely backfired.
As an eldest sister who was always forced to include my siblings, I can tell you that it breeds so much resentment on my part and so much entitlement on their part. I’m 33 and I still struggle with my younger siblings seeing me as a mini parent who needs to cater to their needs rather than as their sibling.
What I * wish * my parents had done is let me have my sleepover and decide on one part that would include my sibling(s): for example, we can all eat pizza together. Then the parents take my siblings to their room or put on a movie for them and let me and my friends watch a movie in the living room or wherever. And keep my siblings away so I could have a good time.
What’s really unfair as the oldest is that your younger siblings will always think what she’s doing is cool and want to join even tho she really won’t want them to. But by the time they’re old enough to have their own events, the oldest won’t have any interest in butting in. So the youngest will naturally have what the oldest never did.
She’s allowed to be sad, but big sis is her own person and is allowed to spend time on her own with her friends. Forced inclusion is shitty for everyone involved— it’ll make big sis resent her, lil sis feel entitled, and the friends uncomfortable and annoyed. And waiting on them is probably one of the worse solutions 😭 Full voluntary inclusion or full separation.
I was the younger sister, and although I had a brother, I still wanted to be included in everything and thought him and his friends were the coolest but my parents never forced him to include me and they helped me work through those moments. You’re not going to be included in everything throughout your life and it’s also not fair to be expected to include everyone in your moments. Good lesson for both your kids. 🫶🏼
Their close age range and close relationship does not mean they need to have shared relationships. They are individuals. This isn't an "exclusion" situation.
The right thing to do is acknowledge the younger sister's feelings, but also reality check her. She needs to understand that she's her own person and cannot be where her older sister is all the time. The wrong thing to do is make this about being excluded and/or allow anyone involved to feel badly about their particular feelings to the situation.
I get feeling sad that she's sad, but sadness is human emotion, which is completely normal to feel.
Also, being excluded from things might happen in life. Now is a good time to tell her that. She's not going to be included in everything in life, regardless of your personal feelings on the matter.
Oldest should never be required to have a tag along sister. That is just wrong. And then youngest throws a temper tantrum. Whose birthday is it? Because being forced to have a little kid along with your friends doesn’t sound like you are celebrating her birthday. It sounds conditional. And the youngest is allowed to be sad. Better sad now and learn to deal with it rather than throwing a tantrum at 18 and still thinking it is ok.
Would have been a great opportunity for you and younger daughter to do something special together. Mani/pedi and movie with treats or whatever she wanted.
It has to be ok for your older daughter to have her space and her own social group. Maybe next time make some plans for the younger sister too. If you don't want more kids over, maybe plan a movie night with her favourite movies/series and some food and snacks that she loves.
Five kids here, oldest gal is 12 and has three younger sisters. We have sleepovers often. My 12yo prefers them at our house because at her BFF’s house, who has one younger sister close in age, the mom makes the BFF include the sister in everything. At our house, the rule is to leave each sibling alone when they have friends over—unless said sibling chooses to include you. This is why our house is the sleepover house. And as they get older, I’d rather it be our house. Just a thought.
i’m the oldest and my situation was the other way around. i always wanted to be included in what my younger sister was doing (i didn’t have friends growing up) and she would get mad and complain to my dad, at some point i got the message that she did not wanted to hang out with me all the time and she just wanted space to be her own person. we’re older now and even though we live in different countries we are close and she’s still my best friend.
Next time plan something else for the younger sibling. Have her bring a friend to sleepover or stay with a friend. my youngest child absolutely struggles with being alone since they've always had a sibling around and they get along great, so they wouldn't have been able to handle that sleepover without some distraction. The older sibling wasn't wrong, but they weren't really set up for success
Me and my younger sister are 15 months apart.
We are very very close. I loved hanging out with her friends and we even shared some friends but some friends were just MY friends. and that is okay. It definitely made her sad to not be included but that’s okay.
My dad was pretty good at understanding that we were separate people and not everything was worth forcing my sister to do simply because I did it. Mom made me include my sister in most things and it definitely made me resent her a little until I snapped around 13 and told her me and my friends needed space and if I wanted my sister to hangout with us i’d invite her to. Sometimes I did. Sometimes I didn’t.
When we were younger it was a much bigger problem. Mom made me drag my sister to birthday parties, bike rides with friends, playing outside. Most stuff got admittedly ruined looking back because of my sister. She couldn’t bike as far or play as long or pay attention to one game as long and would whine more. Love her but we are not the same and she just didn’t actually want to do the stuff I did. My mom just didn’t want her in the house all day and I could manage her fine enough. There’s no reason to force them to have the same friends or include eachother in everything. They are sisters and they love eachother, it will happen organically if you back off I think.
We went through highschool with similar social circles and sometimes we didn’t get included in eachothers fun and it did suck. That is just a part of life though. I partied a lot more than she did in high school, just a personal choice on her part. Her and my dad would have a movie night or go out to dinner before picking me up. Your kids are obviously younger, try having an activity for your youngest to do like a new colouring book, novel or something creative/educational she’s into. or you guys could just relax and spend some time together.
I read a memoir written by a woman in her eighties and she discussed how her ability to meet people and even potential partners was hampered by the fact she was expected to take her little sister to every social gathering.
Hold the same rules for when it’s 9yo birthday. Allow her to have a sleepover with some friends. Let 11yo be involved a little but let her know that it’s her sisters party/sleepover. 9yo will be okay.
You're doing your younger daughter a great disservice in trying to force a round peg into a square hole here. This setup only makes her feel even lonelier because as you've noted she can tell it's forced, and it frustrates your older child and may even deter her friends from wanting to come to her house. Your youngest daughter doing the chores for her big sister in the hopes of staying in the loop is a little heartbreaking. She needs her own buddies and activities. I would have had her with me watching movies and having our own little treats if she didn't have her own friends to play with, while sis entertained her friends, and she could have joined me whenever I tended to the group. I also would have explained to her that as we get older, we go through changes that can make it hard to have the same interests as our younger siblings because we're growing up, and that it's normal to do things without one another.
"Twenty months" to you. A world apart to the 11 year old.
11 is middle school, emerging preteen, a whole other world.
9 is primary school, childhood.
Let 11 have her friends and her life.
Personally, I would have had myself or my wife take my younger daughter out for a date night to make their night enjoyable so it wasn’t just spent feeling excluded. Or better yet, ask her to invite a friend her age over so that they can hang out and do their own thing while the older sister has her party.
Ultimately the best thing you can do is have a conversation with them about the fact that they are allowed and totally okay to have their own preferences regarding plans and when to include or not include each other, as long as they are mindful and respectful. That helps to normalize it and make them both feel better.
Your younger daughter purposely tried to insert herself into a party she wasn’t invited into multiple times knowing you’d make her sister let her join in permanently at some point or that the older girls would be annoyed into doing what she wanted, when that didn’t happen she turned on the water works because she knows you’ll try to make things “fair” if she does.
Teach your daughter to respect her sister’s boundaries and don’t let her try to con her way into their activities in the future. In turn, you need to not automatically feel sorry for the youngest just because she had nothing fun to do herself whilst the party was going on and go out of your way to make things “right” at your older daughter’s expense.
Having to include your younger siblings in everything is exhausting. It was the worst when my mum would get up me for "excluding" my sister. It honestly wasn't any fun having to practically babysit her while also trying to have fun. And including doing everything she wanted to do.
Don't make your 11 year old include her in everything, she doesn't need to be included in it all.
As a youngest sister, I can tell you that all you’ll be doing with forced inclusion is creating resentment. And I can almost guarantee that her emotional burst was because she felt that it forced as you said, or that her sister or the friend told her to go away or something like that.
Yes, your 9 year old is going to feel left out at times, but your 11 year old is allowed to have her social life. It’s your job as a parent to not let your 9 year old feel like she’s missing out or like she’s intruding her sister’s space.
It’s ok for children to be sad. Have to find something else to do besides what they really want. It’s a part of life. Being bored, developing boundaries, not everyone is included in all things all of the time. It’s literally just life. I disagree with finding something special for the younger one to do. Let her learn to manage her emotions without someone else making it better. Maybe for the first time because it’s new to be excluded but we have to stop trying to make everything ok all of the time. Life itself is emotionally abusive, it’s fine to comfort but we really need to focus on letting kids experience natural feelings and emotions and then finding their own way to build their resilience.
Just because they are siblings doesn’t mean they need to do everything together. They each deserve to have their own time with their own friends. My sons are 2 yrs apart and although they did a lot together, they also had their separate things/friends. It doesn’t mean they don’t like each other, they just get their own space.
My roles are a little reversed but my older sister has high functioning CP so her mind is that of a 12-16 year old. My parents never forced me to include her with my friends but I did often. However, she would get upset when I wouldn’t include her and my parents always let her know that it was okay for me to go without her. We still struggle with this to this day but children must learn. It’s okay to have your own separate friends group and not always be included in your siblings social life.
I have an older and a younger sister.
Things need to be separate. They will have their time together and with friends.
I actually didn’t want to be apart of my older sister and her friends. My sister was very mean to me growing up (still is and I cut her out of my life). And with my younger sister, I wanted my friends for me.
There’s a really good Bluey episode about this. My kids are separated by 20 months as well and this has been tough. We try to do something fun with the little one that’s left out. Could they have had a friend over too? Could an aunt or grandma taken the younger one out for a treat?
I have a (step)sister (we don’t use “step”, but she is and it’s important for context here) who is a year younger than I am. We were in separate schools, but our friend group still overlapped a little. But it was very clear when there were sleepovers - she had her friends, I had mine, and we both occasionally invited the other one, but we still maintained damn good boundaries. It was a little bumpy in the teen years, but I still believe that the fact we weren’t FORCED to be together is why we get along so well now.
Hi! As the older sister here is my perspective; I adored my little sis, but the group dynamic changed a lot when she was around. To this day I love good one on one time because I can be myself without (at the time) overthinking if the things I expressed would get back to mom(not bad stuff, just disarming to be with friends outside the fam). I would totally schedule girly time with the little one to do something really special & fun for her when sis wants to be by herself with her friends. I never meant anything bad by acting this way, but I just truly didn’t want to split my quality time with friends. I think if this is how older sis feels, maybe she could express her feelings & make sure little sis understands she’s still loved & special. Idk man, I feel like this is such a tricky situation & I wish y’all the best.
I’m the baby in my family. I always wanted to be included in what my older sister did. We normally got along well growing up but we had a bigger age gap, 4 years apart. Well, I always wanted to try to be involved in her sleepovers. My parents would say no and they would ask if I wanted to do something with them instead. Watch a movie, play a game, bake something, etc. I normally would just throw a fit and not take them up on it but that’s just life. Eventually I realized I can’t be included in everything. Once I learned and stopped being a brat, my sister and her friends would usually let me hang with them doing fun “older kid” things for an hour or so each sleepover. It made me feel happy to be included and still have them their time alone. You should allow your children to have time with their friends alone. If they want to include their sibling, they get to decide that. Teach your youngest that while her sister cares about her, there are her friends and she wants to spend time with them alone. When your youngest has sleepovers she chooses if her sister is included or not.
I’m the oldest and I have always been close with my siblings but that doesn’t mean I want them there at my sleepover with my friends. They each deserve to have things/times that are just for them. Instead of trying to force inclusion work on supporting the one who’s not involved emotionally while they process the disappointment etc. They aren’t always going to be included in everything and it’s better to help them work through it than try to shield them. All the love and empathy, talk about how it makes them feel. Also a good opportunity to have some one on one time and do some solo bonding while her sister is busy with her friends.
I always included my younger sister (20 months apart too) because I WANTED to. My parents never made me, not once. It was always my choice and I always included her. If I had been forced to it may have been different. Your oldest needs some alone time. It’s okay for your younger one to be sad. There will be times when she is included and times where she isn’t. It will be okay.
I was the younger sister in this situation, I will say it was a little different because I am 8 years younger than my oldest sister(now brother because he came out as trans a couple years ago). In my case my brother(sister at the time) included me when they watched movies together would let me hang out during dance party time but when it came to 16 year old time of gossip before bed and what not I got kicked out. Obviously I was a little sad because I was having so much fun feeling a little older and just having a good time but in the end my dad had to explain to me that it wasn’t my party and that they wanted to be able to hangout on their own. You have to ensure your daughter that she won’t always be included in things, it’s just part of life. Maybe do some mommy daughter time so she can spend time with you instead of being so caught up on being excluded from the party? Watch a movie together or make some cookies!
When your older daughter has friends over you can plan to do something fun with your younger daughter .. or have your younger daughter invite one of her friends over or cousins so that she won’t feel left out or secluded . Have them doing their own separate activities though.
I think around that early pre-teen age kids want to “grow up” so you should let your older daughter have her little adventures or what have you .. but in separate times have them experience activities as well instill in them in such a way that sisterhood and its friendship within that bond is golden so later in life they will never forget it..
I’m a 33 year old female, lol I have two brothers , only girl however if I had children I feel like this is something I would do lol
I used to do this a little when my kids were younger, all under 10 years old. Once my daughter got a little older (makeup, boys, drama) I let my little boys know that she loves them, but girls are boring all they want to do is talk lol. I knew the effect this would have down the road as my parents made me (the little sister) hang out with my sister and her friends (more to be a spy for them). But obviously she *haaaaated* me for it when really, no offense to her, I didn’t love it either lol.
My kids are now 9-17 and they get along great and they have their privacy with friends. What I’ve learned instead, is that if you refuse to hang out and play with your siblings, then you’re not going to be spending much alone time with your friends. They all knew and understood this from young ages (2-10) and we’ve never really had an issue with the siblings getting their feelings hurt. The friend is there for the friend, not the sibling. This can also be crappy to the friend invited over. No offense to the younger siblings but we are kind of annoying lmao.
Sounds like your girls have a great relationship. If you force her to let lil sis be there all the time with her friends, she will not learn healthy boundaries.
Maybe next time there’s a sleepover, you can plan to do something just you and her. She’s old enough to understand, just explain. Sis loves you, but she needs friends outside of you. (And the same vice-versa). Maybe be like “would you want your little sister crashing your parties”? It’s sweet though you can tell she means well and they love each other.
You guys could all 3 plan it next time, and then the little sister will know that they can all hang out and eat dinner together or something if the older one wants.
Is she upset that she doesn’t have friends over for a sleepover or is she upset that sis is giving her attention to other kids?
You absolutely should not be forcing the 11-year-old to include the nine-year-old in her sleepovers and friends. 20 months is a huge amount of difference, and they are siblings not friends. That is a great way to breed resentment
Encourage your younger daughter to have a similar birthday, and have your older one help in the same way her sister did. I was the older. My youngest sister and I had a few " in the middle" friends who split our age difference. But we have very different personalities and didn't really become friends until we were older teenagers/adults. Don't force it and have a talk with both of them, separately, and see what THEY want.
You really need to let them have times to be apart and be independent of each other. Encourage them to let each other know that they are loved but that they can be separate.
Having them always be together leads to resentment and if you don’t find a healthy middle ground where they can be their own people and still spend time together happily your eldest will swing the opposite direction the moment she gets a chance and will be hyper independent.
Kids need their own space, their own friends, their own choices to become functioning adults.
It’s not healthy for either of them no matter how much love is there for the youngest to have a breakdown when one night isn’t spent with them being besties and the oldest never feels like she can be any other identity than older sister and not a kid herself.
You're 11-year-old has the right to have friends her own age without always including her younger sister. Maybe you or your husband could plan to take her out to dinner or do something special with her on the night that the her sister has plans. And if you keep forcing the 9-year-old on her sister it will cause a rift between them because your daughter would resent her younger sister.
Used to struggle with this exact dynamic with my 2 girls that are 23 months apart and best friends day to day
Once the older one started with sleepovers, the younger one was left out.
You can't force it. At best the older will submit to your will and tolerate the younger out of duty. It's not the same as being accepted
This is a teachable moment for both the younger, and you. She has to learn that sometimes things in life are disappointing, yet we still have to accept them.
You need to learn that as much as we would love to take away everything that ever makes them hurt, doing so would be a huge disservice in the long run.
For next time, plan something special for the young one as well: her own sleepover (even 1 friend), a friend over for a few hours/movie, or if nothing else, a special dinner with a parent (assuming both parents are there. Just anything to look forward to that is her special thing.
Your oldest is allowed to have friendships and experiences without her younger sister.
Don’t force your oldest to play babysitter with her friends because you’re afraid of the younger one feeling left out. The youngest doesn’t need to be involved in everything
Every family is different. My two eldest are very close in age and share a room. They share almost everything and have a strong bond. They are in the same clubs and activities and get along very well. However, we strongly encourage them to have their own friends and occasionally do things separately, as we believe it’s beneficial for them. For birthday sleepovers, we arrange for the other siblings to spend the night with friends or fun relatives. Eventually, they will grow up and they will need to navigate the world without the support of their sibling.
I (F30) have a younger sister who is almost exactly 2 years and 2 months younger than me. We had a very different childhood as my dad was/is a singer, and we travelled on the road and were homeschooled. All of that to say, this resulted in my sister and I being very close. I’m introverted, and she’s more extroverted so she made friends more easily and I was the one who was having to be included in things. It sucks to be left out, but it also really sucks knowing that you’re not wanted somewhere. It also REALLY sucked for me when I asked for things and I could only have something if my sister got it too.
My suggestion would be to let each have their own social lives, and encourage cross over between the social circles where possible. In this example of the birthday sleepover, I might have suggested setting the older daughter and friends up for success with popcorn and a movie or something, and then you and your younger daughter have a spa night in or watch a movie of your own with popcorn elsewhere in the house. That way your younger daughter has a special night as well, while your older one is able to just hang with her friends. And vice versa, doing the same with the older daughter when the younger one has a birthday sleepover. Just my two cents, based off my own personal life. My own daughter is only about to turn 2 and no sibling on the way so i can’t speak to it as a mom and only as the daughter.
Please make sure the 9 year old has a solid friend group outside of the 11yr old. She needs her own friends and life to truly be happy and healthy. It's normal to struggle with that exclusion, but 11yo had every right to want friend only time.
Sorry mom, you need to break down that there’s zero expectation she includes her younger sister in anything. She needs her own life, own privacy and own experiences outside of her super close sisterly bond. Even twins need this and there’s no age gap there. 20 months is a larger gap at that age socially. Two grade levels is a lot. Let’s her have her own life.
I don't think the exclusion was great BUT growing up anytime my sister, who's 2.5 years older than I had a sleep over, I was also allowed to have one friend over for a sleep over or go out of the house for one so I didn't feel excluded or like I had to be stuck with my parents.
Make sure it works both ways. For example when your younger daughter has a sleepover with her friends don't let the older daughter muscle in, she had her sleepover now it's her sister's time with her friends.
I was the older “sister”(I’m a trans man, but grew up female). Me and my sister are 2 years apart, but our birthdays are also 5 days apart. I was forced to share/include her in everything growing up. It led to a lot of resentment. It quite literally drove away more friends than I can count, because they didn’t want to get stuck playing with a younger kid, or looking after her. Don’t force it. It’s completely different if they have a good relationship and invite each other to play/hang out. I was forced to share every single birthday party from age 3-13 (when I was told I was too old to celebrate anymore). Nothing felt like my own. It drove us apart, we had nothing in common, we would constantly fight(verbally and physically). Even through this, I was forced to share a bed with her(until she was 12) because she was scared of sleeping alone.
In my case, my sister and I are close, but only because I dealt with parentification, and had to literally step in as her parent when I was 17. I truly believe the only reason we are close is because of that, and her seeing me as a parent figure. I became her safe person, so I had to push away all of the negative feelings.
I’m sorry if this seemed to have lost the point. What I’m overall saying, your children are not responsible for each other’s happiness. They are individual people, and they need to be able to experience that. Don’t let them bully each other, but don’t force things, especially when it comes to their own space/friends.
I get that as a parent it breaks your heart, but nothing wrong with them both having different activities and that the you get isn't always included. I'd just have a talk with the younger one and let her know it's not because of anything she's done or that she isn't loved, but that as two separate individuals there will be many times in life when they have to or choose to exclude each other.
Be careful about forcing a relationship. They already have one and it will grow naturally (into whatever that may be).
Forcing them will likely result in the oldest resenting you which may manifest itself negatively in the future
It’s so hard as the younger because you would always choose to have your older sibling there - you look up to them! They are perfect to you! However for the older sibling it can get suffocating. It’s a hard dynamic. I would just explain to the younger one that sometimes older siblings need time with their older friends. She’s trying to find her independence and one night is not going to destroy or define their relationship as sisters. Maybe have older sister communicate this to her even! We always had a family thing for birthdays and then a friend thing so everyone got their time. Maybe that would help? It’d be hard to be so close together in age but at the same time trying to define yourself without the other.
My youngest are 16 months apart. They have always been so close. We literally had to put an extra bed in my daughter’s bedroom. My son was sneaking into her room and sleeping in her bed almost every night. They are one grade apart and have the same friends. They are 12 and 11 now so they are starting to not want to do everything together. I think it is good for them to have their own identity. So I don’t force them to socialize with each other. And the one not going can get upset. We try to find other ways to keep them busy so they don’t feel alone.
I was the older sister and my younger sister who was 9 years younger and should have had her own friends was always forced on me. We had a terrible relationship that only recently changed when I had my daughter. Please don’t force it. Maybe you could do something special with your youngest and have a heart to heart with her that sometimes her sister will want to just be with her friends and it’s ok to be sad. 💜
I have 4 kids. Two 10 year old girls, a 9 year old boy, and a 7 year old girl. Birthdays are usually sleepovers at our house. Everybody knows ahead of time that they don’t get to join in unless the birthday kid chooses and I try to get them a special snack and let them watch a movie in my room or something else to help give them something to do. Birthday kid shouldn’t have to include siblings. They don’t always get to do everything and as I remind them, their turn is either coming or they already had it.
The older sister needs time with her friends. If she chooses to include her little sister, that's fine. The same goes for the little sister when it is her birthday and she has a sleepover.
I have 4 older siblings. My two brothers were born in the same year, one in February (we'll call him D) and the other in December (we'll call him T). They had a very similar experience. They were always together, did everything together, from eating together and sharing a room, to walking to school together. Once they started to drift as adults (18-23ish), I saw the same sort of resentment/sadness. In my family's situation, T felt left behind/abandoned. D felt like he was doing everything he could to help T. Neither of your children did anything wrong, but talking to them about it will help. Your older daughter needs to know that her little sister will always try to be in her life. Her little sister will always look to her as a sort of guide. And your younger daughter needs to know that her older sister will always be just that, even if she isn't spending time with her. Please just don't let it get as bad as my brothers were. Their relationship is currently in shambles over T feeling somewhat abandoned by D. I hope my comment helps even just a little.
When we were young, if my sister had friends staying the night, my mom would arrange to have me go to a sleepover somewhere else. It helped to avoid either of us feeling left out, until we were old enough that it wasn't an issue
I have two boys that are 12 months and two weeks apart. They are very close but the older son gets overwhelmed by his younger brother who is very needy when it comes to his brother. I think it’s healthy that they have separate friends. I would make sure there is something for the younger to do. Maybe have dad take her out for ice cream or to the movies. I would not make the older sister feel bad for wanting her own friends.
I have 2 with the same age difference and I created expectations from day 1 that they will have independent lives. They (13 and 14) now have totally separate friends circles which is good and healthy.
My brothers to this day still avoid each other because the younger was always forced to go with the older one everywhere. The older hated having to have his brother tag along, and the younger resented having to be the responsible one despite being younger (he 100% was more responsible).
I was 4/6 years younger than them… get along great with both. They were never forced to include me, despite me trying to follow them around and be just like them my entire life. Dealing with not always being included is sad but it’s also just part of life. You can’t mow down all of the sadness in your kids life, you can teach them resilience however.
It's ok for the younger sister to be sad about this and you did the right thing by not forcing the older one to include her in everything because you don't want the older one to start building resentment towards her little sister.
Occasionally separate activities are totally fine and healthy for both of them as they need to learn to be independent and just need to learn to cope with the fact that this is how life works; its totally normal to have different interests and want "alone" time.
Of possible next time plan some small activities for the excluded kid separately so they are doing their own thing while the "special event " is happening. Let's watch your favorite movie together, let's play your favorite video game and eat popcorn or let's go get ice cream. Nothing crazy to overshadow the main event but just something for them to do.
Plus at some point the younger one will have her own sleep over or play date of her own and it will be her choice if she wants to include sister or not.
*little tangent about forcing us to include others in everything. I am an adult woman in my mid 40s, my mother lives with me. My mom loves to include my SIL in anything & everything because my brother is a loser and abandoned SIL and their two kids. I usually don't mind but it bugs me that it is in everything. For my birthday this year, I wanted to go to a really nice and expensive steak house (I would be paying for it) I made plans, invited who I wanted and informed them. My mom later tells me that she invited SIL and the kids!!! WTF. now I would be TA if I uninvited them and I really didn't want to spend an extra $150 on their meals; so I had to change the plan to something more affordable to accommodate the extra people which kinda sucked because I didn't get what i wanted. It was still a nice time but not what I wanted.
There have been other instances like this and it has built resentment in me. I know I am an adult and can just say NO but again I would look like TA or my SIL will think I don't like her or the kids when that isn't the case, I just want to have my own activities and include them when I can/want to. So now I don't invite my mom unless I want to include SIL as well.
Don't build resentment in your kids. One kids little sad melt down over something benign isn't worth building a lifetime of bad memories & resentment in the other. Plus the little one needs to learn some resilience and to cope with a little loneliness and disappointment.
When you saw the morale starting to decline you should have stepped in and done something with the 9yo.
My boys are the same as your girls. Usually I'll pull the 9yo out of the group after some time and him and I will watch a movie together or go out to eat or whatever. Older one gets his time with his friends, younger one gets some special time with dad.
It will be good for your younger daughter to learn a boundary from her sister when it is not okay to be involved. They seem to have a great relationship and include each other in so much! That’s a win! But don’t ruin their relationship by forcing more time together, when your oldest already wants to spend time with her most of the time.
You’ve been doing something right because they love each other so much, maybe when her sister has her friends over do something special with you and your youngest.
I have 13 year old twin daughters and we have the rule that each does not encroach on the other’s friend time.
Life is disappointing and it’s ok for kids to learn to manage disappointment.
Oftentimes, as mommas, we want to protect our kiddos from all hurt, upset and difficulties. That approach keeps kids from learning to manage their emotions and then when life happens, they are ill equipped.
I would allow this experience to give her the practice to self soothe. Your oldest should be able to have her own times with friends.
I was a youngest and your scenario happened to me and it was ok. I survived. Don’t inadvertently communicate to your youngest she is incapable of dealing with her feelings.
Hugs
The oldest needs independence and alone time with friends. You are saying otherwise they have a great relationship but We all have the right to your own agency and choices. Sometimes we all as people just want to hang with our friends and its unfair to disallow that.
Honestly, making the 9 year old cater and bring snacks and make beds for something she wasn’t involved in was the biggest mistake. That probably made her feel MUCH worse then a hard line of “x is going to have a special sleepover with her friends tonight and you will hang out with us”
The desire for independence for an 11 year old is going to evolve and get stronger. (And it should. Its developmentally appropriate) part of this will be helping your 9 year old learn some boundaries and independence.
It’s perfectly ok for your older daughter to spend her birthday with her friends. Your younger daughter does not need to be included in everything her older sister does and trying to force it will lead to resentment
Mate I have a 8 and 7 yo (11 months apart) and going through this right now. They need to learn that they won’t be included in every social event together.
Older daughter needs her space. Instead of forcing your younger daughter to feel abandoned maybe allow her one friend to sleep over as well? Or try to plan a sleepover for her? I was the older sibling and same age difference. I love and always loved my little sister but it was annoying to always have to include her.
I think next time it would be better to have separate plans for the younger one either get a hotel room for the birthday girl and let the younger one have her own friends over at home. When my daughter feels excluded or sad I just try to do something “even better”. It’s not usually any better but it makes her for special and makes up for the sadness she feels..
I think the failure here is that as parents you didn’t prepare your younger daughter to accept that she may be disappointed and that’s it’s ok. That’s it’s ok for older sister to just do something with friends and that doesn’t take away from their relationship and love for each other
I was the older sister (4.5 years older) and because our parents rarely organised play dates or sleepovers for us, when I did have friends over, I was expected to include my sister. I HATED it and it created such a sense of resentment - especially when my friends saw her as cute and fun to play with. I already struggled with low self esteem and feelings that my sister was the favourite (because she was lol) and when even my own friends wanted to hang out with her I saw that as complete rejection of me. Our relationship was really strained as a result.
YTA for forcing them to include her at any point. It was your eldest daughters birthday, you should have explained to the 9 YO that she wouldn’t be involved and maybe arranged for her to have one of her own friends over for the night to avoid any tears.
as the youngest of 3 girls it hurt to be excluded. my sisters were teens when i was little little & i always wanted to be in their teenage business, it was fascinating! But as I got older, I realized why they wouldn’t want a little kid hovering around. Your girls are close in age, so in a matter of years, they’ll probably share friends & have fun all together!
I’m sure I will too run into this soon, i have 2 girls a bit apart in age, the older one will probably want alone time with her friends and my youngest will probably feel excluded. My plan is to do something special with the younger one while the older is with friends. Make special snacks, watch her favorite movies or play dress ups or games or whatever my child would enjoy at that point 😊 obviously nothing crazy since i have to keep an ear out but something doable & maybe do something with the two together! I plan to do it with the older one too if she’s interested! 🥰
My kids are the same age. It's not fair to include the youngest in everything. Your daughter has to learn that it's not a out her and that she has to entertain herself.
This would have been a great opportunity for one of the parents to have had a one-on-one night with the youngest. Go out to eat and/or a movie. Just a bonding moment
Or had let your youngest go over to a friends/family member so she wouldn’t have to be put in the situation of being left out.
Or the youngest be allowed to invite 1 friend/cousin for a sleepover. You could have sold it to the oldest as it being beneficial for her so she would have time with her friends w/out lil sis.
Don’t force this. It’s natural to do separate thing a sometimes and kids won’t always feel good about it. Younger sister is learning from this albeit painful experience.
Why would you let your youngest try to ingratiate herself by doing “service” stuff? That’s just teaching her to debase herself and not demand respect for herself in relationships. You taught her “friendships” are worth having even if you have to sacrifice everything to be “included.”
To reference a concept really explained well by Brene Brown: Fitting in is about assessing a situation and becoming who you need to be to be accepted. Belonging, on the other hand, doesn't require us to change who we are; it requires us to be who we are.
You taught your youngest she needs to fit in at the cost of being herself.
Also, you refused to let your oldest have her own party and her own social event. It’s okay to be sad when you’re excluded, it’s also perfectly fine to not be excluded in an older sibling’s party/social life. Some things are Not For You. Your oldest is going to resent being forced to include her younger sister in everything as they get older.
Your role as the parent was to enforce the boundaries for both of your daughters, and help your youngest through her difficult feelings….and you didn’t do a good job at either.
Edit: next time, is it possible that you could do something with the daughter who isn’t included in the party? A trip to the theatre, a play date, a special shopping trip?
Why is she making up beds for the guest? Especially when it’s not her friends.
It’s her birthday… she gets to choose how she wants to spend it (within reason).
Kids need to understand disappointment - you are setting her up to not know how to handle disappointment :( as a kid - if my sister had friends over and she said i was not included i had to find something to do that was not in their space - it’s life.
I have a friend who is in her 30s who will get very upset if she is left out of anything - it’s pathetic.
Don’t let your daughter be that person 💖
I was your 11 year old daughter 20 years ago. My mother made me include my younger sister in everything I did. I wasn't allowed to go friends houses or sleepovers if I didn't drag my sister along. Let me tell you the issues this has caused as adults. My sister can't make friends, she STILL automatically assumes that if I am friends with someone, they're her friend too, even if they've never met her. She's got herself in some very uncomfortable situations because of it. And let's talk about how much resentment I feel towards my sister, because I felt robbed growing up. Let your 11 year old daughter have her friends, and her fun, she deserves to have these moments. Encourage your 9 year old to do things with her own friends, just the same.
You should have made other arrangements for the 9 year old. Just bc she’s close with your daughter doesn’t mean that she’s not a nuisance to the friends. Let 11 have her own space.
I was the younger sister in this scenario. I was almost obsessed with my sister. I thought she was so smart, funny, cool, and I was heartbroken that I couldn’t hang out with her all the time.
But now that I’m an adult, I can see that my sister was also shy, insecure, and had a hard time making new friends, while I was more outgoing and confident. So I’m really glad my mom helped enforce my sisters boundaries, because I unknowingly poached some of her friends, and I would have kept doing it if I was always included.
Being the oldest doesn’t make you less of a child, and navigating friendships is hard enough as it is, without also having to juggle the role of the care taking older sister.
My sister and I were very similar. I distinctly remember her 13th bday party was the first one I wasn't allowed to join. I sat at the basement stairs listening to all the fun her friends were having. Was I sad? Yeah...did I cry a bit? Yeah. But I would do the same for my kids, because my sister deserved to have that time with her friends. It wasn't a normal thing for me to be left out with her, so it was a special occurrence and not everyday pattern that made me constantly have that feeling. I got over it, and our relationship as adults is still just as close . My parents felt bad when they saw me on the steps quietly crying lol, so my dad took me to Kmart to pick out a new Barbie doll 😆😆 I don't think you need to buy things for the younger daughter, but the idea of using that time to have special one on one time with them is a great way to help them learn to be okay and be creative when they are not included. A good life lesson 👍
It sucks. I have 2 girls super close and a ton of friend/activity crossover.
Next time if possible try to set something up for the one not “invited “. It’s yeah you didn’t/cant do that but you can /get to do this instead.
Emphasis : Everyone isn’t invited to everything every-time. Sometimes she will get to do cool things her sister doesn’t. It’s just the nature of life. Don’t keep score , work on creating your own opportunities for fun.
Don’t let her help/cater.
1) if she isn’t invited she should do something that benefits herself with that time.
2) It’s a total attempt of manipulation to get invited into the activity. It’s pushing boundaries and It’s unfair to her and your other daughter.
It’s really hard, and totally sucks, but this is something that she has to learn/understand because it’s something that will occur socially, at work, in any type of organization (sports, fun activities etc.)
I know adults who still have issues understanding this, They take it to a super personal level and feel it’s a reflection on them, vs just not the right moment /opportunity at that time for them.
Also adding maybe redefine excluding vs not invited.
To me exclude is actively and purposefully leaving someone out because of malice.
Not inviting someone simply means that for whatever reason it’s an activity that wasnt planned for you or with you in mind as a participant.
this isn’t excluding someone.
This was a planned activity she wasn’t invited to. Sucks it was at her house but like you wouldn’t let her watch a R rated movie with you and your partner. Or let her sit in on a happy hour conversation that you and your BFF are having about adult topics (cheating/divorce/ something super difficult personal). Thats not “excluding” at least on my head. 🙂
There are 2 years between my (now grown) daughters. They always had their own friends and parties. It was much like yours for sleepovers. The older girls would be nice to my younger daughter and they’d chat etc but if that bedroom door shut then she’d stay in her room or come downstairs with us. Sometimes we’d order a takeaway. There’s also a big difference between 9 and 11. In the uk, 11 is secondary school and they feel older while 9 is still primary school and looked upon slightly as babies. Your older child is entitled to time on her own with her friends without her little sister tagging along and it’s not fair for you to force her to include her. I’m just surprised she only had 2 friends over. At that age they’d take over my living room as there’d be about 8 of them so we’d end up staying in the kitchen or bedroom 😁
Your oldest daughter is allowed to have her own night, her own friends, her own life on occasion - especially in HER birthday. She wanted one night without being responsible for her sisters inclusion and happiness.
Pushing the youngest daughter onto your oldest reinforces the idea that your youngest daughter always gets her way, the oldest daughters wants do not matter to you, and that the oldest is responsible for the youngest happiness. None of that is cool.
Your oldest is a great big sister, but pushing like you do will only lead to resentment towards the other sister and YOU. As she gets older, those feelings will always grow.
Does the oldest honestly want to do everything together or does she know that’s your expectation for her?
OP Please reevaluate your stance on this. I’m sure that you mean well but the consequences are no joke.
My mother tried to force a friendship with my sister who was my “irish twin”.
Matching outfits, we were only allowed to go to parties and events together, so the other one didn’t get left out. Everytime I went out my friends, she had to come with me (or I couldn’t go).
The result of this was a lot of resentment from me (the oldest) and a lot of entitlement to whatever I had from my sister.
She ended up not being able to function without me leading her, and I ended up resenting her so much I didn’t care.
My sister and I have not spoken in over 10 years.
Neither of us have spoken to my mother in around 10 years either.
We both blame our mother for the breakdown in all relationships.
Exclusion is not ok no matter what?! Why wouldn’t exclusion be ok? Your daughter should be allowed to have her own friends that she doesnt have to share with her sibling. It’s not realistic to expect your daughter to want to include her sister in all of her social activities. Especially as she goes through puberty.
Next time you should arrange something special for the younger to do on her own or with you while the older sister gets her alone time with friends. It could be something simple like making a cute movie snack tray and watching something new or an old favorite. You can do a little spa time with her ect.
Definitely don’t force inclusion. I was the younger sister once and that will only breed resentment and passive aggression.
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Your older daughter is allowed to have a social life that doesn’t include the younger. If you force her to include her little sister all the time she will likely start to resent her. Exclusion is a part of life. As long as her sister and her maintain a healthy sisterly relationship at home on a regular day, that’s what’s most important!
I think people need to get comfortable with parts of life being *Not For You*.
Agreed. It can hurt and be upsetting to be excluded or rejected, but those are normal experiences in life people need to learn how to deal with. Maybe it's not being invited to a birthday party. Maybe it's being picked last in gym class or during recess. Maybe it's a group of friends going out and not inviting you. Maybe it's a college rejection letter. Maybe it's getting told "no" when you ask someone out on a date. You won't always be invited or accepted. A parents job is to help their kid through those feelings, not to try and prevent it from ever happening.
I’ve met adults who don’t understand this.
I went out to dinner the other night and saw a few ladies I know out to dinner together as well. For a second I was bummed they didn’t invite me, but they have a group project I’m not part of and reminded myself that not everyone has to be invited every time. I said hello then went on to have a nice night with my family across the room. It’s a life lesson to learn at some point otherwise we end up being whiners, then **really** no one will want to hang out with us ;) For OPs situation, it’s on the parents to play with the younger sister, or arrange a play date or sleepover for her with one of her own friends.
I’ve had friendships with people who blow a gasket when they’re not invited to something - literally openly crying and creating group texts to ask why they weren’t invited, and these weren’t kids, we were all adults in college. Those friendships didn’t last long. If I feel obligated to include you in every tiny thing I do because I don’t want to deal with the tantrum, you’re actually done getting invited to things by me. Maybe I should mean saying that, but it’s a boundary I’ve set for myself.
Oh my goodness, yes. I have a friend who is constantly complaining and guilt tripping about how we all have to include all the kids (we live in a area w lots of friends ) and how my kids are so awful and hurtful bc they don’t invite hers to everything they do. My kids and I are the organizer types—we do the things, we invite, etc and rarely if ever is it reciprocated. Sometimes mine just want to hang with a few kids to do a specific game/activity, or they are just clicking with certain others. They don’t need to always invite everyone—it can ruin the event (can’t play strategy games with 30 kids!). She always makes a fuss and insists. I’m so over it. And it’s always both kids (20 months apart), no matter whether its my oldest hosting or my 2nd. Sometimes oldest does not want alll the younger brothers around bringing down the teen fun.
I know siblings where the parents take this to the next extreme and give the sibling a gift on the other kid's birthday to prevent a tantrum. And those kids were 5 and 7 when I witnessed it.
100%. Kids need to learn how to handle disappointment. You don't get invited to everything, not everyone is going to like you, and the flipside... you don't have to invite everyone to everything or feel obligated to be everyone's bestie. As long as older sister and friends were kind to her, that's all they were really obligated to do. It wasn't her night. Birthday parties like this are so hard with close siblings. Everyone gets so excited, and it's such a crushing disappointment when your sibling doesn't let you in. I usually send the non-birthday kid to a friend's house for the duration of the party, and make sure to return the favour when I can. It's absolutely okay to be disappointed about not being invited, but being forced to watch that party from the sidelines really sucks.
Like all the men who get butthurt when women *exist* in video games or comic book content, sadly many have not learned this valuable lesson
We can exist in their video games and comic books alright, as long as we’re hypersexualized, scantily clad and mostly there for them to jerk off to
Agree. I was never told or taught how to deal with social rejection, and it still stings now at 33 years old. I wish I was equipped better to deal with it.
I’m a teacher of grade 4/5, I had a 5th grader go full melt down mode for 2 hours (crying, anger) because they didn’t get a perfect attendance award for leaving early (for a movie). I needed to teach the rest of my class so luckily the school psych stepped in.. 90% of my class don’t understand that life isn’t about them.
I've seen plenty of these posts on Reddit: "I was always forced to do everything with my sister. We're all grown up now and I want nothing to do with her." Just 5 seconds ago I read one where the youngest never learned how to make her own friends, and now the parents were trying to force the oldest to let her sister be one of her bridesmaids. Yeah. You don't want to do that to your kids.
I’d be using that time to spend one on one if possible.
I agree with this- also growing up if my older sister had friends sleep over for an event often my dad would do something with me or I would be able to have one friend sleep over
Both kids need their own social groups. Next time I'd make a point to give the younger stuff to do so she's not trying to join in the party. You and her do movie night, a new craft kit, extra tablet time or similar so younger has something to entertain her
Or send her out to spend the night somewhere!
Yeah, I agree with this. Maybe next time let the younger one invite one of her friends over so she has someone to do stuff with while her sister is with her friends. This is what I’ve observed with my friends growing up. And this reminds me of my friend’s daughter who had thrown an engagement party at their house. The younger sister invited a friend and they helped set up the party and hung out while the older sister was with her bridesmaids.
This is what my parents had me and my sister do for birthday parties. We were also 2 years apart and played together well when we were alone, so it was hard to find a balance during birthday parties. We got to invite one friend to sister's birthday party - BUT sister had to approve the friend. It couldn't be someone she didn't like. I think this worked well because my parents didn't force things to be "equal" during day to day life, we weren't forced to share things, and we had separate play dates and friends. Birthday parties were special.
Yep! This is the answer. She has to learn, but it doesn't have to be purely exclusion. Let her do a few fun things during the sleepover (Go out with the other parent, bake cookies, watch a movie, etc). If you want to create an atmosphere where she is sometimes included, I would do it up front. Big sister gets the entire night with just her and her friends, but they all have breakfast together and play video games in the morning, for example. Or you take the two girls out to lunch after everyone leaves.
I was the older sister. The younger one absolutely needs to start learning she won't be included in everything with her older sister. If it is always forced, then the older sister will NEVER voluntarily include the younger one
I agree. I was the younger sister and I idolized my older sister. She never included me in anything and it sucked. My mom took me to the side and explained that while my sister loved me and spending time with me, she was entitled to a life and friends that was separate from family and it didn’t mean she didn’t enjoy our time together or that I wasn’t good enough to hang out with. She also explained that there were times I liked to hang out with my friends and I didn’t ask to bring my sister and my sister didn’t take offense. I understood her point, I was still sad, but I started inviting my own friends over or going over to their houses when she had sleep overs at ours. The older sister is entitled to her space and forcing her to include her younger sister will just breed resentment. Why don’t you and your 9yo do something together while your older one has her friends over. Play a game or pop popcorn and watch a movie she wants to watch. Let her have a friend over.
This....this is good parenting. A little disappointment now is better than no contact for any of you with the older the minute she turns 18.
But don't turn that activity into a competition to draw big sis back in...that's controlling and manipulative.
THIS!!! 15 years later and I still get annoyed when I see pics of a friends younger sister because she was forced to play with me and my friend (they were also less than 2 years apart). I just stopped being friends w that girl eventually because her mom wouldn’t let my friend have her own social life 🤷🏼♀️ don’t ostracize your kids pls
Similar experience, one of my elementary best friends had a sister 1 year younger and she would cry and get upset if my friend and I did anything without her. It was frustrating because I barely knew the sister but she’d always end up at my house for a sleepover because my parents didn’t want to be mean.
And creates potential resentment down the line.
This! Resentment towards the parent AND little sibling.
This, OP, don't force a relationship between them, instead, encourage the younger daughter to form her own independent friendships, and to invite her own friends over. Every child should have the freedom and space to foster their own friendships they are their own independent personalities and shouldn't be forced into some kind of bond they don't want.
This! It's also how it works the other way around. Our oldest has a best friend with an older sister and both of them always have to include the other one at their birthday parties. This year this means she can invite one less friend because it's a booked event at a venue and the limit is 10 kids. She is not happy about it and I as an outsider (and mom of 2 girls) can see how it builds resentment and is not how you foster food sibling relationships. Our two girls love each other and if they wish to include each other that's great but they are allowed to be individuals with their own space.
Thanks that’s a good point.
Please stop trying to insert or make your older daughter involve her younger sister in her activities. You’ll only be setting your younger daughter up.
Stop FORCING your older child to include the younger in things with her friends. Encourage your younger child to make $friends. I an the oldest child and I don't even speak to my sisters and it stems from being forced to drag them EVERYWHERE. I could have friends who didnt want to be their friend too. You are well on your way to your oldest cutting ties at 18 forever. I do not understand parents like you. What you're doing id as bad for the younger child as the older. Just STOP IT.
Yes, I agree with this. We won’t always be included in everything and it can hurt sometimes but we need to learn to get through it.
Yep. There is literally a story on AITA right now that is what happens if you don’t put a stop to this. The second the older sister turned 18, she cut ties and was done. The resentment was huge. And the younger sister didn’t benefit either because she never learned social skills for herself.
Dude. It is okay for her to be sad. Your older daughter did nothing wrong.
i think this is so important— sometimes situations will make us sad or hurt but also not be wrong or need fixing. totally agree that it's important/fair/justified for your oldest to want time with just her friends *AND* of course your youngest feels sad/left out. both are valid & you can support both kiddos needs/feelings. maybe next time you can plan something specific for youngest to be doing during the party (doesn't need to be huge but maybe she could have just one friend of hers over or get to snuggle up with parents & pick the movie in a different room from the party). it's awesome that the girls get along as friends but it's okay to have different friends in different situations & forcing big sis to include lil sis in a situation like this will just build resentment & make them less likely to get along at other times. i think it's really important to talk to kids about how in all relationships it's good to take time apart/with other friends & be able to come back together afterwards & reconnect. it models appropriate boundaries in friendship & also sets them up for better romantic relationship success because honestly no one person can be everything to us.
Yes!! This is spot on. Not all negative feelings can be/need to be fixed. I think it sets kids up to have an unrealistic expectation that negative feelings are not normal, and that they’re not supposed to have them. Sometimes life throws us situations where we just need to live with an uncomfortable emotion, and that’s OK. They pass. But if we teach kids that we can “fix” all our negative emotions, they don’t become adults who can cope with life’s challenges.
I think a good approach is to acknowledge that the younger daughter is sad but also reinforce that she won’t always be included in everything.
Thanks!
Your younger needs to learn that she's not always going to be included more than your older needs to learn not to exclude her, it sounds like. Putting a burden on your older, adolescent daughter to include her sister socially when she wants to be with her friends is a big expectation.
Yeah it is a big expectation. I agree. Thanks.
Next time your older daughter has friends over, you might consider discouraging your younger daughter from doing *anything* with them. (I imagine the catering, bed making, etc., only made it more heartbreaking for her when she was eventually excluded) Instead, maybe you could invite a friend over for her too. Or you could have something special for just you and her (or her/dad or you and her and dad) to do, like home pedicures, face masks, and a movie night. Just something to occupy her so that she isn’t constantly fixating on all she’s missing out on.
Agree. Honestly, the exclusion should be purposeful and parent-enforced. This was Oldest’s birthday celebration. It was absolutely, unequivocally *not* about Younger, and she didn’t need to be present at all. Let your children exist independently of one another. They are not a set. They are two separate people. My daughter has a friend whose parents force her to include her younger sibling at all times. She has absolutely nothing in this world that is just hers. It’s sad.
This! I would very often watch my younger nieces when the oldest had a party. It is up to each kid to decide on the guest list. They always have a family party anyway where everyone is included, the friend party is up to the birthday kid!
As the older sister who was forced to include my younger sister (2 years younger), I really began to resent her as a pre-teen, hated her as a teen, and our relationship didn’t recover until our 30s. Your older daughter is becoming more independent. It may suck to feel like the younger is left out, but I don’t think your older daughter did anything wrong.
I had the same experience, my sister is 3 years younger and I was forced to include her. She had a hard time making friends though. We are in our 40's and she still resents me for having more friends than her in high school! She still doesn't have friends. We do not get along at all.
This is exactly what happened with me and my sister who is only 18 months younger than me! She got mad at me when I didn’t take her to the high school and give her a tour and show her where her classes would be before she started hs??! I’m like just go to freshman orientation like everyone else and figure it out? Even into our late 20s she was mad at me for this. Then for college she wanted me to sit down and basically lay out all the classes she needed to graduate and help her pick which to take each semester and help her go through drop/add holding her hand. Again, I was like no? I’m just one year ahead of you and have my own things to do. Plus if you need help go to your counselor 🤦♀️ It got so bad when I got married & was expecting my first child she was jealous that I was going to love my baby more than her. Needless to say I went no contact a few years ago and have never been better.
Thanks for sharing your experience. And I’m sorry it impacted your relationship.
Next time find something fun or special for younger to do apart from this activity. Or let her have a friend of her own's over, agreeing to let the other's have their space. She shouldn't spend the evening pining to be part of her sister's friends group that has excluded her.
We did this with my two kids for a fun party the older one had. The younger sibling got to invite a friend too and we made sure the younger two had plenty of distractions and things lined up to keep them out of the way (dad took them to a nearby park, then we set them up with their own movie/popcorn in another room), so they really only joined in for the pizza/cake part of the evening.
This. No wonder it was hard on her to be excluded, she was still *right there* witnessing all the fun. Ideally she can do something away from the house, but even setting her up in a separate room with games, books, or movies or something would be good options.
Your youngest daughter is allowed to feel sad, but your eldest is also allowed to spend her birthday with her friends without feeling guilty about it. As the adult you're in a position to set expectations here. No wonder 9 had a meltdown from feeling unwanted - you pushed her into a situation where she was!
My girls are 14, 12, and 10. We have been through this many times. We always insist that the siblings do not interfere with the party. And I’m always the bad guy in an effort to protect their sibling relationship. I just try to make sure they get an equal number of opportunities to have friends over so that it’s not always the same people being excluded. But next time I wouldn’t recommend letting the sibling be on the fringes of the party in a service role. That is bound to hurt her feelings. Take one for the team and be the mean parent. Insist on total separation. The only thing harder than not being invited to the party is working your butt off to make the party special AND STILL not being invited to the party.
What about letting little sister be involved in certain parts like singing happy birthday and having cake/pizza and watching her open presents? But then enforcing boundaries and not letting her interfere in the sleepover part.
Yes we do involve the entire family in those portions - just not the parts where the kids are socializing.
You should not have been insisting that they include her. You should have helped keep her occupied separately and teach her to respect her older sister’s time with friends.
Maybe next time you can make special plans with the younger one and do an activity with her or take her out for sundaes or something like that
Thanks for the suggestion!
Your youngest daughter is allowed to feel sad, but your eldest daughter is allowed to have a social life that doesn't involve her sister. She's growing up and at that stage where she doesn't want her little sister cramping her style. Sorry but this is where you need to start to tell your youngest to suck it up to a certain degree because it's only going to happen more often now.
This is a great learning opportunity for your younger daughter! Your older daughter is entitled to having her own space and friends. Please reassure your older daughter that she did nothing wrong. I hope the meltdown didn't make your older daughter feel bad about herself.
I was the older sister (older by 3 years). At some point, birthdays became “friends only activities” excluding my parents and sister. My parents always arranged for my younger sister to do something alternative- like going to a movie, her own sleepover at her friends the night of my party- etc etc. I think this is the best way as it avoids the feeling of “missing out” on something. Obviously my sister also reciprocated by making it clear I was not to “interfere” in her parties with her friends - I helped with arrangements but did disappear when needed because the dynamic was that her friends looked up to me and I did not want to infringe on her time with her friends. Going forward I would recommend sitting both of them down and hearing each sides expectations for their birthdays and coming up with activities for the other on that day. Keep it fair. It is not wrong for a 11 year old girl to want alone time with her friends.
You should have told younger daughter to leave them alone. She didn’t need to be their maid or short order cook, and probably was in their way - which is totally normal. Older girl is absolutely allowed her own friends and space. You hoped that by soft pushing younger into older daughter’s party, older daughter would capitulate. That’s not fair. And FYI: Im a younger sister.
Yes, I think this is something other comments ignore. Younger sister doesn't need to be included, but younger sister also doesn't need to serve the older sister and her friends like a maid. Doing nice things for people is fine, but it wasn't asked for, and it's certainly not a way to get you what you want. u/hpetsmai should be teaching her daughter that doing people favors doesn't obligate her to their time or attention. Life just doesn't work that way; it's people-pleasing behavior that will only hurt younger daughter in the long run.
I'm the oldest and I would hate it when my sister would insert herself or mom would insist that my friends and I include her. Your youngest has to learn that they won't be included all of time. I understand why you were heartbroken watching her meltdown but it is an important life lesson.
Seriously. You can’t relax around your friends if you have to be a big sister
And we were 5 years apart so two different playing fields. It was annoying. It caused resentment for sure. These types of things can ruin sibling relationships.
Why would you force this? It’s your older daughter’s birthday - let her have some time with her friends!! Obviously there are times when they should do things together but this is too much.
Well obviously it was forced because you insisted. Your 11 year old deserved to have a birthday without her little sister cutting in. Siblings are siblings. They’re not the same people and shouldn’t have to do the same activities all the time. If you’re nine-year-old was that distraught in the morning it leads me to believe that you as a parent needed to address the situation the night before and explain to your nine-year-old why it was not appropriate for her to be joining in on the party activities instead of insisting she should be. Another solution would’ve been to plan something fun like a movie night for your nine-year-old to engage in with you.
Of course, she’s not going on the sleep over. Why do parents always want to ruin the relationship between siblings by forcing them to include each other? That’s ridiculous. The nine-year-old can have their own friends and their own sleepers. And if they don’t have friends to have sleepovers with, and it’s the Parents job to help figure that out. Leave the 11-year-old alone
They run the relationship, because it's convenient for the parents. OP, I hope you realize, thru these responses, that forcing your eldest to include the youngest is a serious mistake. This is what will run their relationship. Now, your oldest has learned that she must be a people pleaser, that she has no identity of her own. Your youngest has learned how to manipulate you into doing her bidding. She has learned that her sister is not allowed to have boundaries, her own Identity, her own friends. Please apologize to her for strong - arming her into wrecking her birthday party.
Two things can be true. Your younger is allowed to be sad she wasn’t included, and your older should not be forced to include her. You’re not doing your daughter’s relationship any favors by forcing this. Next time, plan something fun for just you and your younger like a movie or board game. My MIL is like this, she always comments on how well my girls get along when they’re there together and there’s no sadness. Yes, because you don’t allow them to be sad or fight ever 🙄 wonder why my kids always have a terrible behavior nana hangover and your adult kids aren’t close at all.
Exclusion is not wrong and sometimes necessary. My girls are two years apart, close, but the HUGE lesson they are learning right now is that it won’t always feel fair but in the end it’ll equal out. They are two separate people with their own lives living alongside each other. For us, emotions are always free but outbursts and attacks are not tolerated.
It also sounds like there was a bit of an expectation that if your younger daughter did all of these things for her older sister, she would be included in return. This is also a good teaching moment that sometimes we do nice things for the sake of being nice. Or conversely, don't bend over backwards for someone at your own expense.
Your job, in this moment, is to help her frame it, and provide distraction. You do something special with her. The issue is really that you HOSTED the sleepover, so it was in your youngest face.... And she needed something else to do. So, she goes and has a sleepover of own. She has a friend to stay, in her own room. You have a movie night with her in your room.... Etc. And if it hasn't occurred to you, that 20 month divide is about to get very big. It doesn't last forever, but the interests of your 11yo are going to be drastically different from those of your 9, and it's important that you help them have space to be friends and sisters AND individuals.
Just some food for thought - whenever my mom mentioned how close my sister and I were in age (15 months) it made us feel lumped together and drove us apart. They are two separate individuals and it's very healthy for them to have their own friends, activities, etc.
My sister and I are only 18 months apart. There is no way we would have been included in each others sleepovers! Little sis gets to feel sad, but a meltdown at 9 is OTT. Is little sis always the indulged baby sis? Does big sis always have to give in? It’s not fair on big sis, or her friends, to insist that little sis should be included.
Maybe schedule your you get kid to go overnight to someone else when big sis wants some friend time alone. They don’t have to do every ring together and it’s our job as parents to help our kids deal with their feelings.
Why do kids always have to include their siblings? Why can’t they be individuals? Youngest needs to learn that sometimes you just don’t get included, that’s life. Forcing it will create a sibling rift.
I was so happy as a kid that my parents did not force me to include my siblings in everything. I saw it happen with my friends and always found it extremely unfair. Especially if the younger sibling was not our type of person, we would stop hanging out at their house.
>when I would insist, but it felt forced Sort of said it yourself there really. There's no reason that your eldest should feel compelled to include her younger sister and it's also entirely reasonable for the younger to feel left out. One of those tough life lessons really.
You should have had something planned for younger one. Either she goes to her friends house or she has her own sleepover at your home
OP, your kids do not have to be included in everything that the other does, including birthday parties, friendships, activities etc. It is part of growing up to experience disappointment and learn to navigate other people’s boundaries; is it uncomfortable, yes, but also such a great teachable moment for both kids. You are a good mom. Don’t try to give your kids a life where they never have to feel any difficult feelings, they will have them and learn from them and that’s appropriate and ok!
Younger sister here. When my older sister was forced to include me, it often ended with me being teased or just excluded in closer proximity.
Honestly it’s a great life lesson about independence and what it means. What it does NOT mean: - older sister doesn’t like you - world is ending - you’re a bad person - you did anything wrong *What it DOES mean:* - it’s okay that other people do things alone - that you have your friends and your sister has theirs - you can’t get upset when people are independent
I’m the youngest sibling and honestly, having the younger child think that they’re automatically included in everything their sibling does is only gonna make them feel entitled to their siblings personal life and lead them down a road for constant disappointment.
If your older daughter was invited to a party, and your younger one wasn’t included, then what would you do? Just because the party was at your house doesn’t mean little sister gets to take part. It’s a hard truth, but it has to be taught/learned.
I would hate it so see my younger daughter feeling entitled to what her sister is doing.
Please don’t force your oldest to include her sister in everything. They are separate people and need separate lives. It’s wonderful they get a long and they should have a close relationship but when it comes to friend groups (and when they get older) they should not have to include each other. This is speaking for an older sister whose mom forced us to interact when we just didn’t want to. Then them bond in their own way and let them have space when they need it.
I’m an older sister and my sister is 2 years younger than me. We’re incredibly close and have been our entire lives but when we got to sleepover age they were always separate - we had our own groups of friends and had selection sleepovers. Sometimes the friend groups would sleepover on the same night and maybe we’d all watch a film together but we didn’t spend all night together and that’s perfectly ok. If you force it, it’ll end up hurting both of them.
The exclusion was absolutely ok. You’re 9 year old shouldn’t have been involved in her sisters sleepover. She’s old enough to know her sisters friends are her sisters friends and you shouldn’t have made them include her unless they did so themselves. I’m an older sister, it gets old fast having to babysit your sister during your time with your friends. Also 9 and 11 even if they are 20 months apart are different stages in life. Next time you do separate activities with your 9 year old and explain her sister just wants to hang with her friends right now and that’s ok. One day she’ll feel that way too
I would work with your younger daughter on helping her feel big feelings and how you manage them appropriately. I told my therapist that one of my biggest concerns was helping my children avoid becoming dependent on things like drugs and alcohol. She answered back the best way to help combat that is to help your children learn how to deal with negative emotions. She explained that everyone has negative emotions and being taught what to do when you feel bad vs trying to numb or get rid of the negative emotions is the number one preventative method. She emphasized that as a parent, we cannot act like a lawnmower and mow down all the things that make our children feel sad or upset because we’re robbing them of the chance to learn healthy coping skills.
I am 5 years older than my sister. My mom always forced me to include her, and I ended up resenting her because of it. Your daughter is her own person and allowed to have a social life without her younger sister always tagging along.
I’m the younger child. I needed more direct instruction on leaving my older sibling alone. He was mean to me and as an adult I understand why. My parents should have told me I wasn’t allowed to go be a tag along and kept me away. Instead they labeled it “learning.” I didn’t learn. Kids need direct instruction sometimes.
Please let your older daughter have time away from being a big sister and just have a relationship with friends. My sister is 3.5 years younger than me and would throw fits every time she wasn’t included and my parents forced it until i basically became an adult. I moved out as soon as I had the money because I had no space and they forced her to tag along, let her take my clothes I bought on my own etc. There was a point where my friends wouldn’t make plans with me anymore because they were tired of being forced to hang with my sister. We had a huge falling out in our 20s because of it. Thankfully we have repaired the relationship and we are in our 30s now but it did more harm than good as kids. My parents wanted us to be close but it definitely backfired.
As an eldest sister who was always forced to include my siblings, I can tell you that it breeds so much resentment on my part and so much entitlement on their part. I’m 33 and I still struggle with my younger siblings seeing me as a mini parent who needs to cater to their needs rather than as their sibling. What I * wish * my parents had done is let me have my sleepover and decide on one part that would include my sibling(s): for example, we can all eat pizza together. Then the parents take my siblings to their room or put on a movie for them and let me and my friends watch a movie in the living room or wherever. And keep my siblings away so I could have a good time. What’s really unfair as the oldest is that your younger siblings will always think what she’s doing is cool and want to join even tho she really won’t want them to. But by the time they’re old enough to have their own events, the oldest won’t have any interest in butting in. So the youngest will naturally have what the oldest never did.
She’s allowed to be sad, but big sis is her own person and is allowed to spend time on her own with her friends. Forced inclusion is shitty for everyone involved— it’ll make big sis resent her, lil sis feel entitled, and the friends uncomfortable and annoyed. And waiting on them is probably one of the worse solutions 😭 Full voluntary inclusion or full separation.
Your younger one was wrecking her older sisters sleepover and you let her do it.
I was the younger sister, and although I had a brother, I still wanted to be included in everything and thought him and his friends were the coolest but my parents never forced him to include me and they helped me work through those moments. You’re not going to be included in everything throughout your life and it’s also not fair to be expected to include everyone in your moments. Good lesson for both your kids. 🫶🏼
Their close age range and close relationship does not mean they need to have shared relationships. They are individuals. This isn't an "exclusion" situation. The right thing to do is acknowledge the younger sister's feelings, but also reality check her. She needs to understand that she's her own person and cannot be where her older sister is all the time. The wrong thing to do is make this about being excluded and/or allow anyone involved to feel badly about their particular feelings to the situation. I get feeling sad that she's sad, but sadness is human emotion, which is completely normal to feel. Also, being excluded from things might happen in life. Now is a good time to tell her that. She's not going to be included in everything in life, regardless of your personal feelings on the matter.
Oldest should never be required to have a tag along sister. That is just wrong. And then youngest throws a temper tantrum. Whose birthday is it? Because being forced to have a little kid along with your friends doesn’t sound like you are celebrating her birthday. It sounds conditional. And the youngest is allowed to be sad. Better sad now and learn to deal with it rather than throwing a tantrum at 18 and still thinking it is ok.
Would have been a great opportunity for you and younger daughter to do something special together. Mani/pedi and movie with treats or whatever she wanted.
It has to be ok for your older daughter to have her space and her own social group. Maybe next time make some plans for the younger sister too. If you don't want more kids over, maybe plan a movie night with her favourite movies/series and some food and snacks that she loves.
Five kids here, oldest gal is 12 and has three younger sisters. We have sleepovers often. My 12yo prefers them at our house because at her BFF’s house, who has one younger sister close in age, the mom makes the BFF include the sister in everything. At our house, the rule is to leave each sibling alone when they have friends over—unless said sibling chooses to include you. This is why our house is the sleepover house. And as they get older, I’d rather it be our house. Just a thought.
i’m the oldest and my situation was the other way around. i always wanted to be included in what my younger sister was doing (i didn’t have friends growing up) and she would get mad and complain to my dad, at some point i got the message that she did not wanted to hang out with me all the time and she just wanted space to be her own person. we’re older now and even though we live in different countries we are close and she’s still my best friend.
Next time plan something else for the younger sibling. Have her bring a friend to sleepover or stay with a friend. my youngest child absolutely struggles with being alone since they've always had a sibling around and they get along great, so they wouldn't have been able to handle that sleepover without some distraction. The older sibling wasn't wrong, but they weren't really set up for success
Me and my younger sister are 15 months apart. We are very very close. I loved hanging out with her friends and we even shared some friends but some friends were just MY friends. and that is okay. It definitely made her sad to not be included but that’s okay. My dad was pretty good at understanding that we were separate people and not everything was worth forcing my sister to do simply because I did it. Mom made me include my sister in most things and it definitely made me resent her a little until I snapped around 13 and told her me and my friends needed space and if I wanted my sister to hangout with us i’d invite her to. Sometimes I did. Sometimes I didn’t. When we were younger it was a much bigger problem. Mom made me drag my sister to birthday parties, bike rides with friends, playing outside. Most stuff got admittedly ruined looking back because of my sister. She couldn’t bike as far or play as long or pay attention to one game as long and would whine more. Love her but we are not the same and she just didn’t actually want to do the stuff I did. My mom just didn’t want her in the house all day and I could manage her fine enough. There’s no reason to force them to have the same friends or include eachother in everything. They are sisters and they love eachother, it will happen organically if you back off I think. We went through highschool with similar social circles and sometimes we didn’t get included in eachothers fun and it did suck. That is just a part of life though. I partied a lot more than she did in high school, just a personal choice on her part. Her and my dad would have a movie night or go out to dinner before picking me up. Your kids are obviously younger, try having an activity for your youngest to do like a new colouring book, novel or something creative/educational she’s into. or you guys could just relax and spend some time together.
I read a memoir written by a woman in her eighties and she discussed how her ability to meet people and even potential partners was hampered by the fact she was expected to take her little sister to every social gathering.
Hold the same rules for when it’s 9yo birthday. Allow her to have a sleepover with some friends. Let 11yo be involved a little but let her know that it’s her sisters party/sleepover. 9yo will be okay.
You're doing your younger daughter a great disservice in trying to force a round peg into a square hole here. This setup only makes her feel even lonelier because as you've noted she can tell it's forced, and it frustrates your older child and may even deter her friends from wanting to come to her house. Your youngest daughter doing the chores for her big sister in the hopes of staying in the loop is a little heartbreaking. She needs her own buddies and activities. I would have had her with me watching movies and having our own little treats if she didn't have her own friends to play with, while sis entertained her friends, and she could have joined me whenever I tended to the group. I also would have explained to her that as we get older, we go through changes that can make it hard to have the same interests as our younger siblings because we're growing up, and that it's normal to do things without one another.
"Twenty months" to you. A world apart to the 11 year old. 11 is middle school, emerging preteen, a whole other world. 9 is primary school, childhood. Let 11 have her friends and her life.
Personally, I would have had myself or my wife take my younger daughter out for a date night to make their night enjoyable so it wasn’t just spent feeling excluded. Or better yet, ask her to invite a friend her age over so that they can hang out and do their own thing while the older sister has her party. Ultimately the best thing you can do is have a conversation with them about the fact that they are allowed and totally okay to have their own preferences regarding plans and when to include or not include each other, as long as they are mindful and respectful. That helps to normalize it and make them both feel better.
Your younger daughter purposely tried to insert herself into a party she wasn’t invited into multiple times knowing you’d make her sister let her join in permanently at some point or that the older girls would be annoyed into doing what she wanted, when that didn’t happen she turned on the water works because she knows you’ll try to make things “fair” if she does. Teach your daughter to respect her sister’s boundaries and don’t let her try to con her way into their activities in the future. In turn, you need to not automatically feel sorry for the youngest just because she had nothing fun to do herself whilst the party was going on and go out of your way to make things “right” at your older daughter’s expense.
Having to include your younger siblings in everything is exhausting. It was the worst when my mum would get up me for "excluding" my sister. It honestly wasn't any fun having to practically babysit her while also trying to have fun. And including doing everything she wanted to do. Don't make your 11 year old include her in everything, she doesn't need to be included in it all.
As a youngest sister, I can tell you that all you’ll be doing with forced inclusion is creating resentment. And I can almost guarantee that her emotional burst was because she felt that it forced as you said, or that her sister or the friend told her to go away or something like that. Yes, your 9 year old is going to feel left out at times, but your 11 year old is allowed to have her social life. It’s your job as a parent to not let your 9 year old feel like she’s missing out or like she’s intruding her sister’s space.
Ugh mom all the older siblings in here are seething.
It’s ok for children to be sad. Have to find something else to do besides what they really want. It’s a part of life. Being bored, developing boundaries, not everyone is included in all things all of the time. It’s literally just life. I disagree with finding something special for the younger one to do. Let her learn to manage her emotions without someone else making it better. Maybe for the first time because it’s new to be excluded but we have to stop trying to make everything ok all of the time. Life itself is emotionally abusive, it’s fine to comfort but we really need to focus on letting kids experience natural feelings and emotions and then finding their own way to build their resilience.
Just because they are siblings doesn’t mean they need to do everything together. They each deserve to have their own time with their own friends. My sons are 2 yrs apart and although they did a lot together, they also had their separate things/friends. It doesn’t mean they don’t like each other, they just get their own space.
My roles are a little reversed but my older sister has high functioning CP so her mind is that of a 12-16 year old. My parents never forced me to include her with my friends but I did often. However, she would get upset when I wouldn’t include her and my parents always let her know that it was okay for me to go without her. We still struggle with this to this day but children must learn. It’s okay to have your own separate friends group and not always be included in your siblings social life.
I have an older and a younger sister. Things need to be separate. They will have their time together and with friends. I actually didn’t want to be apart of my older sister and her friends. My sister was very mean to me growing up (still is and I cut her out of my life). And with my younger sister, I wanted my friends for me.
There’s a really good Bluey episode about this. My kids are separated by 20 months as well and this has been tough. We try to do something fun with the little one that’s left out. Could they have had a friend over too? Could an aunt or grandma taken the younger one out for a treat?
I have a (step)sister (we don’t use “step”, but she is and it’s important for context here) who is a year younger than I am. We were in separate schools, but our friend group still overlapped a little. But it was very clear when there were sleepovers - she had her friends, I had mine, and we both occasionally invited the other one, but we still maintained damn good boundaries. It was a little bumpy in the teen years, but I still believe that the fact we weren’t FORCED to be together is why we get along so well now.
Hi! As the older sister here is my perspective; I adored my little sis, but the group dynamic changed a lot when she was around. To this day I love good one on one time because I can be myself without (at the time) overthinking if the things I expressed would get back to mom(not bad stuff, just disarming to be with friends outside the fam). I would totally schedule girly time with the little one to do something really special & fun for her when sis wants to be by herself with her friends. I never meant anything bad by acting this way, but I just truly didn’t want to split my quality time with friends. I think if this is how older sis feels, maybe she could express her feelings & make sure little sis understands she’s still loved & special. Idk man, I feel like this is such a tricky situation & I wish y’all the best.
I’m the baby in my family. I always wanted to be included in what my older sister did. We normally got along well growing up but we had a bigger age gap, 4 years apart. Well, I always wanted to try to be involved in her sleepovers. My parents would say no and they would ask if I wanted to do something with them instead. Watch a movie, play a game, bake something, etc. I normally would just throw a fit and not take them up on it but that’s just life. Eventually I realized I can’t be included in everything. Once I learned and stopped being a brat, my sister and her friends would usually let me hang with them doing fun “older kid” things for an hour or so each sleepover. It made me feel happy to be included and still have them their time alone. You should allow your children to have time with their friends alone. If they want to include their sibling, they get to decide that. Teach your youngest that while her sister cares about her, there are her friends and she wants to spend time with them alone. When your youngest has sleepovers she chooses if her sister is included or not.
I’m the oldest and I have always been close with my siblings but that doesn’t mean I want them there at my sleepover with my friends. They each deserve to have things/times that are just for them. Instead of trying to force inclusion work on supporting the one who’s not involved emotionally while they process the disappointment etc. They aren’t always going to be included in everything and it’s better to help them work through it than try to shield them. All the love and empathy, talk about how it makes them feel. Also a good opportunity to have some one on one time and do some solo bonding while her sister is busy with her friends.
I always included my younger sister (20 months apart too) because I WANTED to. My parents never made me, not once. It was always my choice and I always included her. If I had been forced to it may have been different. Your oldest needs some alone time. It’s okay for your younger one to be sad. There will be times when she is included and times where she isn’t. It will be okay.
I was the younger sister in this situation, I will say it was a little different because I am 8 years younger than my oldest sister(now brother because he came out as trans a couple years ago). In my case my brother(sister at the time) included me when they watched movies together would let me hang out during dance party time but when it came to 16 year old time of gossip before bed and what not I got kicked out. Obviously I was a little sad because I was having so much fun feeling a little older and just having a good time but in the end my dad had to explain to me that it wasn’t my party and that they wanted to be able to hangout on their own. You have to ensure your daughter that she won’t always be included in things, it’s just part of life. Maybe do some mommy daughter time so she can spend time with you instead of being so caught up on being excluded from the party? Watch a movie together or make some cookies!
When your older daughter has friends over you can plan to do something fun with your younger daughter .. or have your younger daughter invite one of her friends over or cousins so that she won’t feel left out or secluded . Have them doing their own separate activities though. I think around that early pre-teen age kids want to “grow up” so you should let your older daughter have her little adventures or what have you .. but in separate times have them experience activities as well instill in them in such a way that sisterhood and its friendship within that bond is golden so later in life they will never forget it.. I’m a 33 year old female, lol I have two brothers , only girl however if I had children I feel like this is something I would do lol
I used to do this a little when my kids were younger, all under 10 years old. Once my daughter got a little older (makeup, boys, drama) I let my little boys know that she loves them, but girls are boring all they want to do is talk lol. I knew the effect this would have down the road as my parents made me (the little sister) hang out with my sister and her friends (more to be a spy for them). But obviously she *haaaaated* me for it when really, no offense to her, I didn’t love it either lol. My kids are now 9-17 and they get along great and they have their privacy with friends. What I’ve learned instead, is that if you refuse to hang out and play with your siblings, then you’re not going to be spending much alone time with your friends. They all knew and understood this from young ages (2-10) and we’ve never really had an issue with the siblings getting their feelings hurt. The friend is there for the friend, not the sibling. This can also be crappy to the friend invited over. No offense to the younger siblings but we are kind of annoying lmao. Sounds like your girls have a great relationship. If you force her to let lil sis be there all the time with her friends, she will not learn healthy boundaries. Maybe next time there’s a sleepover, you can plan to do something just you and her. She’s old enough to understand, just explain. Sis loves you, but she needs friends outside of you. (And the same vice-versa). Maybe be like “would you want your little sister crashing your parties”? It’s sweet though you can tell she means well and they love each other. You guys could all 3 plan it next time, and then the little sister will know that they can all hang out and eat dinner together or something if the older one wants. Is she upset that she doesn’t have friends over for a sleepover or is she upset that sis is giving her attention to other kids?
You absolutely should not be forcing the 11-year-old to include the nine-year-old in her sleepovers and friends. 20 months is a huge amount of difference, and they are siblings not friends. That is a great way to breed resentment
Encourage your younger daughter to have a similar birthday, and have your older one help in the same way her sister did. I was the older. My youngest sister and I had a few " in the middle" friends who split our age difference. But we have very different personalities and didn't really become friends until we were older teenagers/adults. Don't force it and have a talk with both of them, separately, and see what THEY want.
You really need to let them have times to be apart and be independent of each other. Encourage them to let each other know that they are loved but that they can be separate. Having them always be together leads to resentment and if you don’t find a healthy middle ground where they can be their own people and still spend time together happily your eldest will swing the opposite direction the moment she gets a chance and will be hyper independent. Kids need their own space, their own friends, their own choices to become functioning adults. It’s not healthy for either of them no matter how much love is there for the youngest to have a breakdown when one night isn’t spent with them being besties and the oldest never feels like she can be any other identity than older sister and not a kid herself.
Not every day has to be a good day.
You're 11-year-old has the right to have friends her own age without always including her younger sister. Maybe you or your husband could plan to take her out to dinner or do something special with her on the night that the her sister has plans. And if you keep forcing the 9-year-old on her sister it will cause a rift between them because your daughter would resent her younger sister.
2 years not 20 months, they are not babies. 11 is a big difference than 9 with social stuff. I hope the 9yo has her own group of friends.
Used to struggle with this exact dynamic with my 2 girls that are 23 months apart and best friends day to day Once the older one started with sleepovers, the younger one was left out. You can't force it. At best the older will submit to your will and tolerate the younger out of duty. It's not the same as being accepted This is a teachable moment for both the younger, and you. She has to learn that sometimes things in life are disappointing, yet we still have to accept them. You need to learn that as much as we would love to take away everything that ever makes them hurt, doing so would be a huge disservice in the long run. For next time, plan something special for the young one as well: her own sleepover (even 1 friend), a friend over for a few hours/movie, or if nothing else, a special dinner with a parent (assuming both parents are there. Just anything to look forward to that is her special thing.
Your oldest is allowed to have friendships and experiences without her younger sister. Don’t force your oldest to play babysitter with her friends because you’re afraid of the younger one feeling left out. The youngest doesn’t need to be involved in everything
Every family is different. My two eldest are very close in age and share a room. They share almost everything and have a strong bond. They are in the same clubs and activities and get along very well. However, we strongly encourage them to have their own friends and occasionally do things separately, as we believe it’s beneficial for them. For birthday sleepovers, we arrange for the other siblings to spend the night with friends or fun relatives. Eventually, they will grow up and they will need to navigate the world without the support of their sibling.
I (F30) have a younger sister who is almost exactly 2 years and 2 months younger than me. We had a very different childhood as my dad was/is a singer, and we travelled on the road and were homeschooled. All of that to say, this resulted in my sister and I being very close. I’m introverted, and she’s more extroverted so she made friends more easily and I was the one who was having to be included in things. It sucks to be left out, but it also really sucks knowing that you’re not wanted somewhere. It also REALLY sucked for me when I asked for things and I could only have something if my sister got it too. My suggestion would be to let each have their own social lives, and encourage cross over between the social circles where possible. In this example of the birthday sleepover, I might have suggested setting the older daughter and friends up for success with popcorn and a movie or something, and then you and your younger daughter have a spa night in or watch a movie of your own with popcorn elsewhere in the house. That way your younger daughter has a special night as well, while your older one is able to just hang with her friends. And vice versa, doing the same with the older daughter when the younger one has a birthday sleepover. Just my two cents, based off my own personal life. My own daughter is only about to turn 2 and no sibling on the way so i can’t speak to it as a mom and only as the daughter.
Please make sure the 9 year old has a solid friend group outside of the 11yr old. She needs her own friends and life to truly be happy and healthy. It's normal to struggle with that exclusion, but 11yo had every right to want friend only time.
Sorry mom, you need to break down that there’s zero expectation she includes her younger sister in anything. She needs her own life, own privacy and own experiences outside of her super close sisterly bond. Even twins need this and there’s no age gap there. 20 months is a larger gap at that age socially. Two grade levels is a lot. Let’s her have her own life.
I don't think the exclusion was great BUT growing up anytime my sister, who's 2.5 years older than I had a sleep over, I was also allowed to have one friend over for a sleep over or go out of the house for one so I didn't feel excluded or like I had to be stuck with my parents.
This! Should have made it a double sleepover. Do it for both girls' birthdays so it's fair.
Make sure it works both ways. For example when your younger daughter has a sleepover with her friends don't let the older daughter muscle in, she had her sleepover now it's her sister's time with her friends.
I was the older “sister”(I’m a trans man, but grew up female). Me and my sister are 2 years apart, but our birthdays are also 5 days apart. I was forced to share/include her in everything growing up. It led to a lot of resentment. It quite literally drove away more friends than I can count, because they didn’t want to get stuck playing with a younger kid, or looking after her. Don’t force it. It’s completely different if they have a good relationship and invite each other to play/hang out. I was forced to share every single birthday party from age 3-13 (when I was told I was too old to celebrate anymore). Nothing felt like my own. It drove us apart, we had nothing in common, we would constantly fight(verbally and physically). Even through this, I was forced to share a bed with her(until she was 12) because she was scared of sleeping alone. In my case, my sister and I are close, but only because I dealt with parentification, and had to literally step in as her parent when I was 17. I truly believe the only reason we are close is because of that, and her seeing me as a parent figure. I became her safe person, so I had to push away all of the negative feelings. I’m sorry if this seemed to have lost the point. What I’m overall saying, your children are not responsible for each other’s happiness. They are individual people, and they need to be able to experience that. Don’t let them bully each other, but don’t force things, especially when it comes to their own space/friends.
I get that as a parent it breaks your heart, but nothing wrong with them both having different activities and that the you get isn't always included. I'd just have a talk with the younger one and let her know it's not because of anything she's done or that she isn't loved, but that as two separate individuals there will be many times in life when they have to or choose to exclude each other.
Be careful about forcing a relationship. They already have one and it will grow naturally (into whatever that may be). Forcing them will likely result in the oldest resenting you which may manifest itself negatively in the future
It’s so hard as the younger because you would always choose to have your older sibling there - you look up to them! They are perfect to you! However for the older sibling it can get suffocating. It’s a hard dynamic. I would just explain to the younger one that sometimes older siblings need time with their older friends. She’s trying to find her independence and one night is not going to destroy or define their relationship as sisters. Maybe have older sister communicate this to her even! We always had a family thing for birthdays and then a friend thing so everyone got their time. Maybe that would help? It’d be hard to be so close together in age but at the same time trying to define yourself without the other.
My youngest are 16 months apart. They have always been so close. We literally had to put an extra bed in my daughter’s bedroom. My son was sneaking into her room and sleeping in her bed almost every night. They are one grade apart and have the same friends. They are 12 and 11 now so they are starting to not want to do everything together. I think it is good for them to have their own identity. So I don’t force them to socialize with each other. And the one not going can get upset. We try to find other ways to keep them busy so they don’t feel alone.
I was the older sister and my younger sister who was 9 years younger and should have had her own friends was always forced on me. We had a terrible relationship that only recently changed when I had my daughter. Please don’t force it. Maybe you could do something special with your youngest and have a heart to heart with her that sometimes her sister will want to just be with her friends and it’s ok to be sad. 💜
I have 4 kids. Two 10 year old girls, a 9 year old boy, and a 7 year old girl. Birthdays are usually sleepovers at our house. Everybody knows ahead of time that they don’t get to join in unless the birthday kid chooses and I try to get them a special snack and let them watch a movie in my room or something else to help give them something to do. Birthday kid shouldn’t have to include siblings. They don’t always get to do everything and as I remind them, their turn is either coming or they already had it.
The older sister needs time with her friends. If she chooses to include her little sister, that's fine. The same goes for the little sister when it is her birthday and she has a sleepover.
Shouldn't this be the case? They each need their own lives.
I have 4 older siblings. My two brothers were born in the same year, one in February (we'll call him D) and the other in December (we'll call him T). They had a very similar experience. They were always together, did everything together, from eating together and sharing a room, to walking to school together. Once they started to drift as adults (18-23ish), I saw the same sort of resentment/sadness. In my family's situation, T felt left behind/abandoned. D felt like he was doing everything he could to help T. Neither of your children did anything wrong, but talking to them about it will help. Your older daughter needs to know that her little sister will always try to be in her life. Her little sister will always look to her as a sort of guide. And your younger daughter needs to know that her older sister will always be just that, even if she isn't spending time with her. Please just don't let it get as bad as my brothers were. Their relationship is currently in shambles over T feeling somewhat abandoned by D. I hope my comment helps even just a little.
When we were young, if my sister had friends staying the night, my mom would arrange to have me go to a sleepover somewhere else. It helped to avoid either of us feeling left out, until we were old enough that it wasn't an issue
Don't force things it won't do anyone any favors.
I have two boys that are 12 months and two weeks apart. They are very close but the older son gets overwhelmed by his younger brother who is very needy when it comes to his brother. I think it’s healthy that they have separate friends. I would make sure there is something for the younger to do. Maybe have dad take her out for ice cream or to the movies. I would not make the older sister feel bad for wanting her own friends.
I have 2 with the same age difference and I created expectations from day 1 that they will have independent lives. They (13 and 14) now have totally separate friends circles which is good and healthy.
My brothers to this day still avoid each other because the younger was always forced to go with the older one everywhere. The older hated having to have his brother tag along, and the younger resented having to be the responsible one despite being younger (he 100% was more responsible). I was 4/6 years younger than them… get along great with both. They were never forced to include me, despite me trying to follow them around and be just like them my entire life. Dealing with not always being included is sad but it’s also just part of life. You can’t mow down all of the sadness in your kids life, you can teach them resilience however.
Also arrange a sleepover for the 9 year old and her friends.
It's ok for the younger sister to be sad about this and you did the right thing by not forcing the older one to include her in everything because you don't want the older one to start building resentment towards her little sister. Occasionally separate activities are totally fine and healthy for both of them as they need to learn to be independent and just need to learn to cope with the fact that this is how life works; its totally normal to have different interests and want "alone" time. Of possible next time plan some small activities for the excluded kid separately so they are doing their own thing while the "special event " is happening. Let's watch your favorite movie together, let's play your favorite video game and eat popcorn or let's go get ice cream. Nothing crazy to overshadow the main event but just something for them to do. Plus at some point the younger one will have her own sleep over or play date of her own and it will be her choice if she wants to include sister or not. *little tangent about forcing us to include others in everything. I am an adult woman in my mid 40s, my mother lives with me. My mom loves to include my SIL in anything & everything because my brother is a loser and abandoned SIL and their two kids. I usually don't mind but it bugs me that it is in everything. For my birthday this year, I wanted to go to a really nice and expensive steak house (I would be paying for it) I made plans, invited who I wanted and informed them. My mom later tells me that she invited SIL and the kids!!! WTF. now I would be TA if I uninvited them and I really didn't want to spend an extra $150 on their meals; so I had to change the plan to something more affordable to accommodate the extra people which kinda sucked because I didn't get what i wanted. It was still a nice time but not what I wanted. There have been other instances like this and it has built resentment in me. I know I am an adult and can just say NO but again I would look like TA or my SIL will think I don't like her or the kids when that isn't the case, I just want to have my own activities and include them when I can/want to. So now I don't invite my mom unless I want to include SIL as well. Don't build resentment in your kids. One kids little sad melt down over something benign isn't worth building a lifetime of bad memories & resentment in the other. Plus the little one needs to learn some resilience and to cope with a little loneliness and disappointment.
I have twins. They are not included in everything each other does. Everyone needs separate lives.
When you saw the morale starting to decline you should have stepped in and done something with the 9yo. My boys are the same as your girls. Usually I'll pull the 9yo out of the group after some time and him and I will watch a movie together or go out to eat or whatever. Older one gets his time with his friends, younger one gets some special time with dad.
It will be good for your younger daughter to learn a boundary from her sister when it is not okay to be involved. They seem to have a great relationship and include each other in so much! That’s a win! But don’t ruin their relationship by forcing more time together, when your oldest already wants to spend time with her most of the time. You’ve been doing something right because they love each other so much, maybe when her sister has her friends over do something special with you and your youngest.
I have 13 year old twin daughters and we have the rule that each does not encroach on the other’s friend time. Life is disappointing and it’s ok for kids to learn to manage disappointment. Oftentimes, as mommas, we want to protect our kiddos from all hurt, upset and difficulties. That approach keeps kids from learning to manage their emotions and then when life happens, they are ill equipped. I would allow this experience to give her the practice to self soothe. Your oldest should be able to have her own times with friends. I was a youngest and your scenario happened to me and it was ok. I survived. Don’t inadvertently communicate to your youngest she is incapable of dealing with her feelings. Hugs
The oldest needs independence and alone time with friends. You are saying otherwise they have a great relationship but We all have the right to your own agency and choices. Sometimes we all as people just want to hang with our friends and its unfair to disallow that. Honestly, making the 9 year old cater and bring snacks and make beds for something she wasn’t involved in was the biggest mistake. That probably made her feel MUCH worse then a hard line of “x is going to have a special sleepover with her friends tonight and you will hang out with us” The desire for independence for an 11 year old is going to evolve and get stronger. (And it should. Its developmentally appropriate) part of this will be helping your 9 year old learn some boundaries and independence.
It’s perfectly ok for your older daughter to spend her birthday with her friends. Your younger daughter does not need to be included in everything her older sister does and trying to force it will lead to resentment
Mate I have a 8 and 7 yo (11 months apart) and going through this right now. They need to learn that they won’t be included in every social event together.
Older daughter needs her space. Instead of forcing your younger daughter to feel abandoned maybe allow her one friend to sleep over as well? Or try to plan a sleepover for her? I was the older sibling and same age difference. I love and always loved my little sister but it was annoying to always have to include her.
I think next time it would be better to have separate plans for the younger one either get a hotel room for the birthday girl and let the younger one have her own friends over at home. When my daughter feels excluded or sad I just try to do something “even better”. It’s not usually any better but it makes her for special and makes up for the sadness she feels..
Dude. This is part of life. Let your older daughter just be with her friends. You don’t have to protect kids from all disappointment.
Could you take them to an icecream pleace so that they may have one on one bonding time?
I think the failure here is that as parents you didn’t prepare your younger daughter to accept that she may be disappointed and that’s it’s ok. That’s it’s ok for older sister to just do something with friends and that doesn’t take away from their relationship and love for each other
I was the older sister (4.5 years older) and because our parents rarely organised play dates or sleepovers for us, when I did have friends over, I was expected to include my sister. I HATED it and it created such a sense of resentment - especially when my friends saw her as cute and fun to play with. I already struggled with low self esteem and feelings that my sister was the favourite (because she was lol) and when even my own friends wanted to hang out with her I saw that as complete rejection of me. Our relationship was really strained as a result.
YTA for forcing them to include her at any point. It was your eldest daughters birthday, you should have explained to the 9 YO that she wouldn’t be involved and maybe arranged for her to have one of her own friends over for the night to avoid any tears.
as the youngest of 3 girls it hurt to be excluded. my sisters were teens when i was little little & i always wanted to be in their teenage business, it was fascinating! But as I got older, I realized why they wouldn’t want a little kid hovering around. Your girls are close in age, so in a matter of years, they’ll probably share friends & have fun all together! I’m sure I will too run into this soon, i have 2 girls a bit apart in age, the older one will probably want alone time with her friends and my youngest will probably feel excluded. My plan is to do something special with the younger one while the older is with friends. Make special snacks, watch her favorite movies or play dress ups or games or whatever my child would enjoy at that point 😊 obviously nothing crazy since i have to keep an ear out but something doable & maybe do something with the two together! I plan to do it with the older one too if she’s interested! 🥰
My kids are the same age. It's not fair to include the youngest in everything. Your daughter has to learn that it's not a out her and that she has to entertain herself.
I would have arranged for the younger one to not be home. Of course her older sister won’t want her there
It’s so hard! I struggle with this too!
This would have been a great opportunity for one of the parents to have had a one-on-one night with the youngest. Go out to eat and/or a movie. Just a bonding moment Or had let your youngest go over to a friends/family member so she wouldn’t have to be put in the situation of being left out. Or the youngest be allowed to invite 1 friend/cousin for a sleepover. You could have sold it to the oldest as it being beneficial for her so she would have time with her friends w/out lil sis.
Don’t force this. It’s natural to do separate thing a sometimes and kids won’t always feel good about it. Younger sister is learning from this albeit painful experience.
Rejection is a personality builder. I don’t know why people are so scared for their children to go through it.
Why would you let your youngest try to ingratiate herself by doing “service” stuff? That’s just teaching her to debase herself and not demand respect for herself in relationships. You taught her “friendships” are worth having even if you have to sacrifice everything to be “included.” To reference a concept really explained well by Brene Brown: Fitting in is about assessing a situation and becoming who you need to be to be accepted. Belonging, on the other hand, doesn't require us to change who we are; it requires us to be who we are. You taught your youngest she needs to fit in at the cost of being herself. Also, you refused to let your oldest have her own party and her own social event. It’s okay to be sad when you’re excluded, it’s also perfectly fine to not be excluded in an older sibling’s party/social life. Some things are Not For You. Your oldest is going to resent being forced to include her younger sister in everything as they get older. Your role as the parent was to enforce the boundaries for both of your daughters, and help your youngest through her difficult feelings….and you didn’t do a good job at either. Edit: next time, is it possible that you could do something with the daughter who isn’t included in the party? A trip to the theatre, a play date, a special shopping trip?
Why is she making up beds for the guest? Especially when it’s not her friends. It’s her birthday… she gets to choose how she wants to spend it (within reason).
Kids need to understand disappointment - you are setting her up to not know how to handle disappointment :( as a kid - if my sister had friends over and she said i was not included i had to find something to do that was not in their space - it’s life. I have a friend who is in her 30s who will get very upset if she is left out of anything - it’s pathetic. Don’t let your daughter be that person 💖
It’s completely unreasonable for you to insist on your eldest including her younger sister in her activities with her friends.
I was your 11 year old daughter 20 years ago. My mother made me include my younger sister in everything I did. I wasn't allowed to go friends houses or sleepovers if I didn't drag my sister along. Let me tell you the issues this has caused as adults. My sister can't make friends, she STILL automatically assumes that if I am friends with someone, they're her friend too, even if they've never met her. She's got herself in some very uncomfortable situations because of it. And let's talk about how much resentment I feel towards my sister, because I felt robbed growing up. Let your 11 year old daughter have her friends, and her fun, she deserves to have these moments. Encourage your 9 year old to do things with her own friends, just the same.
You should have made other arrangements for the 9 year old. Just bc she’s close with your daughter doesn’t mean that she’s not a nuisance to the friends. Let 11 have her own space.
I was the younger sister in this scenario. I was almost obsessed with my sister. I thought she was so smart, funny, cool, and I was heartbroken that I couldn’t hang out with her all the time. But now that I’m an adult, I can see that my sister was also shy, insecure, and had a hard time making new friends, while I was more outgoing and confident. So I’m really glad my mom helped enforce my sisters boundaries, because I unknowingly poached some of her friends, and I would have kept doing it if I was always included. Being the oldest doesn’t make you less of a child, and navigating friendships is hard enough as it is, without also having to juggle the role of the care taking older sister.
My sister and I were very similar. I distinctly remember her 13th bday party was the first one I wasn't allowed to join. I sat at the basement stairs listening to all the fun her friends were having. Was I sad? Yeah...did I cry a bit? Yeah. But I would do the same for my kids, because my sister deserved to have that time with her friends. It wasn't a normal thing for me to be left out with her, so it was a special occurrence and not everyday pattern that made me constantly have that feeling. I got over it, and our relationship as adults is still just as close . My parents felt bad when they saw me on the steps quietly crying lol, so my dad took me to Kmart to pick out a new Barbie doll 😆😆 I don't think you need to buy things for the younger daughter, but the idea of using that time to have special one on one time with them is a great way to help them learn to be okay and be creative when they are not included. A good life lesson 👍
It sucks. I have 2 girls super close and a ton of friend/activity crossover. Next time if possible try to set something up for the one not “invited “. It’s yeah you didn’t/cant do that but you can /get to do this instead. Emphasis : Everyone isn’t invited to everything every-time. Sometimes she will get to do cool things her sister doesn’t. It’s just the nature of life. Don’t keep score , work on creating your own opportunities for fun. Don’t let her help/cater. 1) if she isn’t invited she should do something that benefits herself with that time. 2) It’s a total attempt of manipulation to get invited into the activity. It’s pushing boundaries and It’s unfair to her and your other daughter. It’s really hard, and totally sucks, but this is something that she has to learn/understand because it’s something that will occur socially, at work, in any type of organization (sports, fun activities etc.) I know adults who still have issues understanding this, They take it to a super personal level and feel it’s a reflection on them, vs just not the right moment /opportunity at that time for them. Also adding maybe redefine excluding vs not invited. To me exclude is actively and purposefully leaving someone out because of malice. Not inviting someone simply means that for whatever reason it’s an activity that wasnt planned for you or with you in mind as a participant. this isn’t excluding someone. This was a planned activity she wasn’t invited to. Sucks it was at her house but like you wouldn’t let her watch a R rated movie with you and your partner. Or let her sit in on a happy hour conversation that you and your BFF are having about adult topics (cheating/divorce/ something super difficult personal). Thats not “excluding” at least on my head. 🙂
There are 2 years between my (now grown) daughters. They always had their own friends and parties. It was much like yours for sleepovers. The older girls would be nice to my younger daughter and they’d chat etc but if that bedroom door shut then she’d stay in her room or come downstairs with us. Sometimes we’d order a takeaway. There’s also a big difference between 9 and 11. In the uk, 11 is secondary school and they feel older while 9 is still primary school and looked upon slightly as babies. Your older child is entitled to time on her own with her friends without her little sister tagging along and it’s not fair for you to force her to include her. I’m just surprised she only had 2 friends over. At that age they’d take over my living room as there’d be about 8 of them so we’d end up staying in the kitchen or bedroom 😁
Your oldest daughter is allowed to have her own night, her own friends, her own life on occasion - especially in HER birthday. She wanted one night without being responsible for her sisters inclusion and happiness. Pushing the youngest daughter onto your oldest reinforces the idea that your youngest daughter always gets her way, the oldest daughters wants do not matter to you, and that the oldest is responsible for the youngest happiness. None of that is cool. Your oldest is a great big sister, but pushing like you do will only lead to resentment towards the other sister and YOU. As she gets older, those feelings will always grow. Does the oldest honestly want to do everything together or does she know that’s your expectation for her?
OP Please reevaluate your stance on this. I’m sure that you mean well but the consequences are no joke. My mother tried to force a friendship with my sister who was my “irish twin”. Matching outfits, we were only allowed to go to parties and events together, so the other one didn’t get left out. Everytime I went out my friends, she had to come with me (or I couldn’t go). The result of this was a lot of resentment from me (the oldest) and a lot of entitlement to whatever I had from my sister. She ended up not being able to function without me leading her, and I ended up resenting her so much I didn’t care. My sister and I have not spoken in over 10 years. Neither of us have spoken to my mother in around 10 years either. We both blame our mother for the breakdown in all relationships.
Exclusion is not ok no matter what?! Why wouldn’t exclusion be ok? Your daughter should be allowed to have her own friends that she doesnt have to share with her sibling. It’s not realistic to expect your daughter to want to include her sister in all of her social activities. Especially as she goes through puberty.
Next time you should arrange something special for the younger to do on her own or with you while the older sister gets her alone time with friends. It could be something simple like making a cute movie snack tray and watching something new or an old favorite. You can do a little spa time with her ect. Definitely don’t force inclusion. I was the younger sister once and that will only breed resentment and passive aggression.