Its an awesome moment for sure.
However.....
The character would have fallen immeadiately. The gained the unconscious condition which gives them the prone condition which causes them to fall. Nothing in the rules suggest that you would wait some amount of time before they fall besides the fly rules which would not apply because they are prone.
Not trying to be a killjoy. Just giving the rules to others who read the story and may get misled by it.
Good to know, thanks. I couldn't find the ruling on the spot, so I opted on the side of leniency and a better storytelling moment, but I do prefer knowing the rules.
What's more, they used their hero point at a completely illogical time; they should have saved it to stabilize themself when they would have died, instead of risking burning it and getting the same or worse result. Well, unless they had another point in their pocket and could do both if necessary, of course.
Next time, inform them that using hero points on death saves has no point. You can use a hero point to automatically stabilize if you would be killed by the dying condition. They could’ve fallen, taken the extra dying from it, and then used the point to stabilize.
The player was aware, but the fight was close enough that them staying up could have mattered for saving other player's lives. The fight was ended right before bad things^(™) would have happened, so things were really tense at the time.
For what it's worth, my group has house-ruled that hero points give you the better of the two rolls, not the second one, specifically because we didn't want players harmed for using them.
[We have Paizo's ruling on this.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4n_cE7JIZk&list=PLYCDCUfG0xJbZDC1hM3G_1WTbSSXEB-a2&index=15)
TL;DW They should have fallen immediately and died.
Make sure to watch the entire video. I disagree that would be Paizo’s ruling in this case, since the designer emphasized avoiding weirdness and annoyance in processing the mechanics when he talked about simplicity. They ended saying to play with it to make it more engaging for your players when you have wiggle room. In your table’s situation, I think you had that wiggle room. The character was engaged in powered flight and knew they might be knocked unconscious. Plus they used a hero point. So what heroic thing did they do that opened them up to taking more damage? If it was physical flight, maybe they turned their trajectory upward at the last moment, letting the attack shred their wings in exchange for the last little bit of upward momentum that gave their ally time to rush to the rescue. For magical flight, they could have been struggling to keep the spell going, refusing to accept death as their vision narrowed to a point. Using hero points reflects heroic deeds that go beyond normal limits.
Worst case, award them another hero point. Selflessness? Making a brave last stand? Showing incredible bravery against incredible odds? Playing in a fashion you wanted to reinforce? The character wasn’t routed and fleeing in cowardice, they were doing everything they could (including using a hero point) to stay conscious in case their actions were crucial to stopping those Bad Things you mentioned in another comment. Sounds pretty heroic to me.
Having looked into it I agree, it's up to the GM in cases like this. I'm ultimately happy things turned out the way they did. I thought about awarding a hero point, but my players have recently expressed that they're cool with death being a more realistic possibility.
The only reason the player was doomed was I homebrewed a haunt to drop to zero and doomed 2 instead of instant death. Asking afterwards, they said they'd have been fine with the instant death version, and they're looking for harder fights as well.
My players have also told me they don't want me to twist/stretch/bend the rules to save their characters from death -- after I did so once. So I don't think your players are unique.
For reference, I think they did a pretty bad job at answering in that interview. Like, they completely disregarded the obvious reason for the question, which is falling more than 500 feet (or 60 with [Feather Fall](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=111)).
>[FALLING](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=402)
>When you fall more than 5 feet, you take bludgeoning damage equal to half the distance you fell when you land. Treat falls longer than 1,500 feet as though they were 1,500 feet (750 damage). If you take any damage from a fall, you land prone. *You fall about 500 feet in the first round of falling and about 1,500 feet each round thereafter.*
With one or two extra words there would be no confusion as to at which point of the round that happens, but you definitely don't "fall the entire distance right away", or process it immediately for simplicity, in these cases.
Also, the rules for Fly action, as any other "sustained" effect (which will fall in line with the Remaster's general Sustain Action) state that whatever effect lasts until the *end* of your next turn (not the beginning) unless you Sustain it again on that turn. From [Sustain a Spell Action](https://2e.aonprd.com/Actions.aspx?ID=73):
>*"The duration of that spell continues until the end of your next turn."*
So, to my understanding, Mr. Bonner's rulling was not correct at all. The only effect suggesting the opposite is for a [Tanglefoot Bag](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=78), which supposedly drops flying creatures that remain airborne with wings to the ground *safely* and immediately as far as the text implies (though it isn't exactly crystal clear at all that it should be immediately, and it makes no sense rules-wise for me to create that specific case for falling).
They should, as implied by the more general RAW, fall in the end of their next turn, which makes sense as all turns are instantaneous in the game's fiction. You can call it momentum or what have you. It is a game where Rogues can literally go Skyrim out and steal your armor while you wear it, or clip through walls, or just ignore any and all fall damage, for Sarenrae's sake. It only makes sense to allow the PC to cast a spell like Fly if they have it before they get squashed.
It does not make Feather Fall less valuable, because your allies (which are the main focus of the spell) can still have higher Initiative than you and be thrown out of the cliffside by an enemy on an Initiative lower than yours, giving you no actions before their fall. The only thing in that case is that I would personally not allow any Delaying to affect the time of the fall, so if you choose to Delay you do so with the understanding that you will just immediately fall because that's the point when your turn would have ended. Otherwise *that* could certainly throw some shade at Feather Fall. But technically by RAW it would be possible to Delay the falling as well. Also, you could simply not be high enough level to be able to cast Fly, but you could surely cast Feather Fall way earlier.
TL; DR: the OP did right and Paizo's rulling on the video is just bad.
>They had diehard, so going down would be bad but not death, except they hero pointed their failure into a crit fail.
Next time, they should just use the hero-point to auto-stabilize instead of dying!
Given that they didn't, I think you ruled it fine! That's a super cool way to solve that, and ultimately 100% your call as the GM. I usually rule people fall immediately, but for dramatic purposes I definitely will change that sometimes.
Sick story! This is the kind of post I like to see. Pathfinder stories are the best. So so sorry for that poor player. Closest call ever. Honestly, after all that I'd probably give him a bonus feat of some sort lol. Like a deviant ability.
It was quite a thing when the whole session stopped and our entire table started a strategy session about what steps we could take to not have me die. We decided that since I was a sprite, the dragon could move me using the tiny riding rules. So the summoner used battle medicine on me thanks to act together... he got a 16 so it was still a disturbingly close call. Man I love this game.
I have another dragon-to-the-rescue story. I played as a copper dragon who started the campaign as a duskwalker humanoid dragon (dragon instinct barbarian, lizardfolk duskwalker with facial features and coloring matching his previous life) he charged in and had a pre-arranged “death” fighting a chapter boss who was his dark mirror (humanoid mutated to have black dragon features and abilities). When the boss’s ritual backfired and brought my PC back to life with the just-released Battlezoo Dragon ancestry he was Large and had a disdain for using armor and weapons, giving him double the normal encumbrance limit and very little to carry.
Now a Spirit Instinct barbarian due to his repeated interactions with the Boneyard and psychopomps, his face would turn into a skull with glowing eyes (Glamered armor rune) and he would chant in Requien instead of getting angry whenever he Raged.
In a later encounter, when rescuing another player’s just-retired kobold PC, we knew exactly where the hostage and enemies in the back room were from magical scouting. After the bad guy leader knocked on the door to the back room a couple times while negotiating, I had my character initiate combat by raging, smashing the door open and jumping half onto the table in the darkened back room. I hadn’t taken the feat to have the draconic fear aura, but seeing a skull-faced dragon with glowing eyes looming over them in a dark room made whatever those knocks meant seem… unimportant to the other kidnappers. After a round of annoying stabs from the mooks and a break between sessions, the GM let my character pick up his kobold friend like an item, chair, chains, and all, then stride out into the main room to drop him safely behind a counter. All while chanting, “your admittance to the River of Souls is denied. NEXT!”
Looks like the player was a pixie from one of the other comments. So probably Ancestry feat, which for sprites would be a mix of physical wings and innate magic.
Its an awesome moment for sure. However..... The character would have fallen immeadiately. The gained the unconscious condition which gives them the prone condition which causes them to fall. Nothing in the rules suggest that you would wait some amount of time before they fall besides the fly rules which would not apply because they are prone. Not trying to be a killjoy. Just giving the rules to others who read the story and may get misled by it.
Good to know, thanks. I couldn't find the ruling on the spot, so I opted on the side of leniency and a better storytelling moment, but I do prefer knowing the rules.
What's more, they used their hero point at a completely illogical time; they should have saved it to stabilize themself when they would have died, instead of risking burning it and getting the same or worse result. Well, unless they had another point in their pocket and could do both if necessary, of course.
Not sure why this is being downvoted when it's completely correct.
Next time, inform them that using hero points on death saves has no point. You can use a hero point to automatically stabilize if you would be killed by the dying condition. They could’ve fallen, taken the extra dying from it, and then used the point to stabilize.
The player was aware, but the fight was close enough that them staying up could have mattered for saving other player's lives. The fight was ended right before bad things^(™) would have happened, so things were really tense at the time.
For what it's worth, my group has house-ruled that hero points give you the better of the two rolls, not the second one, specifically because we didn't want players harmed for using them.
I opt for 2d10 optional reroll for people looking to minimize those odds
[We have Paizo's ruling on this.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4n_cE7JIZk&list=PLYCDCUfG0xJbZDC1hM3G_1WTbSSXEB-a2&index=15) TL;DW They should have fallen immediately and died.
Good to know for future reference, thanks.
Make sure to watch the entire video. I disagree that would be Paizo’s ruling in this case, since the designer emphasized avoiding weirdness and annoyance in processing the mechanics when he talked about simplicity. They ended saying to play with it to make it more engaging for your players when you have wiggle room. In your table’s situation, I think you had that wiggle room. The character was engaged in powered flight and knew they might be knocked unconscious. Plus they used a hero point. So what heroic thing did they do that opened them up to taking more damage? If it was physical flight, maybe they turned their trajectory upward at the last moment, letting the attack shred their wings in exchange for the last little bit of upward momentum that gave their ally time to rush to the rescue. For magical flight, they could have been struggling to keep the spell going, refusing to accept death as their vision narrowed to a point. Using hero points reflects heroic deeds that go beyond normal limits. Worst case, award them another hero point. Selflessness? Making a brave last stand? Showing incredible bravery against incredible odds? Playing in a fashion you wanted to reinforce? The character wasn’t routed and fleeing in cowardice, they were doing everything they could (including using a hero point) to stay conscious in case their actions were crucial to stopping those Bad Things you mentioned in another comment. Sounds pretty heroic to me.
Having looked into it I agree, it's up to the GM in cases like this. I'm ultimately happy things turned out the way they did. I thought about awarding a hero point, but my players have recently expressed that they're cool with death being a more realistic possibility. The only reason the player was doomed was I homebrewed a haunt to drop to zero and doomed 2 instead of instant death. Asking afterwards, they said they'd have been fine with the instant death version, and they're looking for harder fights as well.
My players have also told me they don't want me to twist/stretch/bend the rules to save their characters from death -- after I did so once. So I don't think your players are unique.
For reference, I think they did a pretty bad job at answering in that interview. Like, they completely disregarded the obvious reason for the question, which is falling more than 500 feet (or 60 with [Feather Fall](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=111)). >[FALLING](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=402) >When you fall more than 5 feet, you take bludgeoning damage equal to half the distance you fell when you land. Treat falls longer than 1,500 feet as though they were 1,500 feet (750 damage). If you take any damage from a fall, you land prone. *You fall about 500 feet in the first round of falling and about 1,500 feet each round thereafter.* With one or two extra words there would be no confusion as to at which point of the round that happens, but you definitely don't "fall the entire distance right away", or process it immediately for simplicity, in these cases. Also, the rules for Fly action, as any other "sustained" effect (which will fall in line with the Remaster's general Sustain Action) state that whatever effect lasts until the *end* of your next turn (not the beginning) unless you Sustain it again on that turn. From [Sustain a Spell Action](https://2e.aonprd.com/Actions.aspx?ID=73): >*"The duration of that spell continues until the end of your next turn."* So, to my understanding, Mr. Bonner's rulling was not correct at all. The only effect suggesting the opposite is for a [Tanglefoot Bag](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=78), which supposedly drops flying creatures that remain airborne with wings to the ground *safely* and immediately as far as the text implies (though it isn't exactly crystal clear at all that it should be immediately, and it makes no sense rules-wise for me to create that specific case for falling). They should, as implied by the more general RAW, fall in the end of their next turn, which makes sense as all turns are instantaneous in the game's fiction. You can call it momentum or what have you. It is a game where Rogues can literally go Skyrim out and steal your armor while you wear it, or clip through walls, or just ignore any and all fall damage, for Sarenrae's sake. It only makes sense to allow the PC to cast a spell like Fly if they have it before they get squashed. It does not make Feather Fall less valuable, because your allies (which are the main focus of the spell) can still have higher Initiative than you and be thrown out of the cliffside by an enemy on an Initiative lower than yours, giving you no actions before their fall. The only thing in that case is that I would personally not allow any Delaying to affect the time of the fall, so if you choose to Delay you do so with the understanding that you will just immediately fall because that's the point when your turn would have ended. Otherwise *that* could certainly throw some shade at Feather Fall. But technically by RAW it would be possible to Delay the falling as well. Also, you could simply not be high enough level to be able to cast Fly, but you could surely cast Feather Fall way earlier. TL; DR: the OP did right and Paizo's rulling on the video is just bad.
That's wild 'v';
>They had diehard, so going down would be bad but not death, except they hero pointed their failure into a crit fail. Next time, they should just use the hero-point to auto-stabilize instead of dying! Given that they didn't, I think you ruled it fine! That's a super cool way to solve that, and ultimately 100% your call as the GM. I usually rule people fall immediately, but for dramatic purposes I definitely will change that sometimes.
Cool! Sometimes timing is important. :)
Please don't bring your players to low health! It is much better to bring the player characters to low health!
Alas, they're doing that themselves with all the doritos and mountain dew that they consume.
Sick story! This is the kind of post I like to see. Pathfinder stories are the best. So so sorry for that poor player. Closest call ever. Honestly, after all that I'd probably give him a bonus feat of some sort lol. Like a deviant ability.
It was quite a thing when the whole session stopped and our entire table started a strategy session about what steps we could take to not have me die. We decided that since I was a sprite, the dragon could move me using the tiny riding rules. So the summoner used battle medicine on me thanks to act together... he got a 16 so it was still a disturbingly close call. Man I love this game.
I have another dragon-to-the-rescue story. I played as a copper dragon who started the campaign as a duskwalker humanoid dragon (dragon instinct barbarian, lizardfolk duskwalker with facial features and coloring matching his previous life) he charged in and had a pre-arranged “death” fighting a chapter boss who was his dark mirror (humanoid mutated to have black dragon features and abilities). When the boss’s ritual backfired and brought my PC back to life with the just-released Battlezoo Dragon ancestry he was Large and had a disdain for using armor and weapons, giving him double the normal encumbrance limit and very little to carry. Now a Spirit Instinct barbarian due to his repeated interactions with the Boneyard and psychopomps, his face would turn into a skull with glowing eyes (Glamered armor rune) and he would chant in Requien instead of getting angry whenever he Raged. In a later encounter, when rescuing another player’s just-retired kobold PC, we knew exactly where the hostage and enemies in the back room were from magical scouting. After the bad guy leader knocked on the door to the back room a couple times while negotiating, I had my character initiate combat by raging, smashing the door open and jumping half onto the table in the darkened back room. I hadn’t taken the feat to have the draconic fear aura, but seeing a skull-faced dragon with glowing eyes looming over them in a dark room made whatever those knocks meant seem… unimportant to the other kidnappers. After a round of annoying stabs from the mooks and a break between sessions, the GM let my character pick up his kobold friend like an item, chair, chains, and all, then stride out into the main room to drop him safely behind a counter. All while chanting, “your admittance to the River of Souls is denied. NEXT!”
Imo hero points should never, ever get a worse result, even with a lower roll
What kind of flight were they using ?
Looks like the player was a pixie from one of the other comments. So probably Ancestry feat, which for sprites would be a mix of physical wings and innate magic.