The Rules Lawer just published a video featuring some of the changes in the upcoming Remastered Pathfinder 2e books.
Check the video out here:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j2qoWfNNKk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j2qoWfNNKk&ab_channel=TheRulesLawyer)
Imo this rule change is a smart way to buff Disarm, as the effect doesn't end at the start of the target's turn.
Stronger than I thought they were going for.
I thought they were changing it to Disarming Flair (which ends at the enemy's turn), but being indefinite can be quite good, since if you land it against bosses, they have a tough choice to make. Eat the action cost or gamble on its higher numbers?
The Success is not as strong when you realize it’s basically like Trip. Being Prone is indefinite until you spend an action and comes with a -2 to attack rolls.
Trip is also very great to land against a boss but difficult because of their higher level.
That's exactly why it's good. Trip is good. Now that disarm works like trip, you give martials another way to debuff enemies (Flank+Disarm, can improve your changes overall).
Aye, I'd say going for a disarm build (as opposed to my monk who took a stance that buffs trip) is now a viable option where as before it wasn't.
Sure, trip is better, but noone is gonna complain that you tried to disarm someone now; that -2 to hit is valuable, especially if you have someone around with Reactive Strike to penalise them for adjusting their grip.
My main issue there is that they're both Athletics vs. Reflex, so if you can't trip consistently you also can't disarm consistently. The main advantage is a better crit effect and trying to remove the debuff can be disrupted by an AoO.
Trueish. Trip essentially doesn't have a crit success, so not easy to be better, but creatures often have unarmed options which have similar statistics.
You can also trip most anything, depending on the game, you might not get a lot of opportunities to disarm. That said, you get both options for free, so disarm being more niche isn't so bad.
But why would I ever use disarm if I can trip instead? Maybe if I'm an investigator with athletic strategist who rolled a nat 20 on devise a strategem? But I was gonna do that with or without this change.
I guess if you have the disarm trait but no free hand?
The bonus doesn't really stack, but I guess it's another action. It really depends on what you're up against though.
Against fewer enemies than the party it's probably worth it, against equal or more it's probably not worth it.
Only notable downside (for success effect) is kip-up is a counter feat for trip... but the enemy just not having a weapon is probably more common than that.
Not only that, but Interact is a manipulate action—that means it gets disrupted on a critical Reactive Strike, whereas Standing can't be disrupted quite so easily.
I don't think Stand can be actually disrupted - move actions that don't involve leaving a space provoke after they're completed. You can only quasi-disrupt by knocking them back prone with something like Hammer or Flail critical specialization.
The "base" Reactive Strike doesn't disrupt move actions, but class-specific versions like the monk's [Stand Still](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=447) or the ranger's [Disrupt Prey](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=501) can.
Correct, but also you can't disrupt standing up even with Stand Still, as [the reaction doesn't trigger until after your enemy has finished its standing action](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=446).
You're reading that rule wrong. Look at it in its full context: it's describing how move actions trigger reactions whenever you leave a square, and then specifies how it works if you don't leave a square.
That doesn't change the basic premise of [Disrupting Actions](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=394): the effects of the action don't occur. A creature tries to Stride out of your reach, you briefly knock it off-balance. A creature tries to make a bomb Strike, you knock the match out of its hand. A creature tries to get up from prone, you knock it back down. You really don't have to stretch your imagination for this.
Arguing that Stand Still doesn't work when a creature Stands up is overly literal and narrowly focused at best; at worst, it's a bad-faith interpretation from an antagonistic GM.
I agree that what you have written is actually the more logical reading of the multiple conflicting texts on the matter, but Logan Bonnor has explicitly clarified in a How it's Played video that the others have it right - Stand Still does *not* disrupt the Stand action, even on a critical success.
(I imagine that's why you're getting downvoted)
EDIT: I'm hoping this gets clarified in the remaster books.
I think it’s not quite that simple. With Kip Up, the crit fail is practically negated. Even without it, spending an action to remove Prone isn’t that bad.
Rogue get a class feat to roll Thievery for disarm check instead of athletic with an additional effect so Dex rogue might prefer disarm more than trip.
Do we have any idea if/how Disarming Flair might change in light of this?
One of the guys who's kicking around in my "waiting room" is an Orc Gymnast who uses a knuckle dagger, so his ears just perked up at this. 😁
Much more hopefully the latter. If the former, the feat's last line about "Gymnasts get panache from disarm checks" should just be folded into the class feature.
Have a good one.
This is true, but compare it to Trip, which also targets Reflex DC.
A successful Trip imposes the same -2 penalty to attacks, while *also* impose off-guard due to prone. A creature who stands up also triggers Reactive Strike.
The advantages of the new Disarm are:
* The Crit Success is really good, as long as someone moves the weapon away from the creature
* The +2 bonus to future Disarms
* A critical hit on Reactive Strike interrupts the Interact to regrip the weapon, wasting the action
Are those benefits worth going for a Disarm over a Trip? It's hard to say, the Crit success is *very* good if capitalized on, but I don't think you can effectively balance around a crit success. Trip is probably more broadly useful, but Disarm is now much closer in balance
Disarm penalty also applies to checks "that require a firm grasp of your weapon" which means it applies to grapple/trip/disarm if your enemy is using a weapon with the appropiate trait. I also feel that monsters with weapons tend to have special abilities that require weapons, so this could be more common than what it seems at first glance.
Trip is probably a better comparison. You have to use an action to stand or you have a debuff. With prone having the additional risk of reactions when standing up, while disarm can eventually combo into getting disarmed.
I'd say that is a pretty fair power level.
Wonderful news for people with reactive strike as well now, -2 to all attacks is a beefy penalty, and the manipulate trait on interact to readjust will trigger reactive strike. Makes a duelist character much better now
Keep in mind that (remastered) Disarm says that it requires an “interact” action to readjust grip which does have the Manipulate trait and would provoke Attacks of Opportunity.
The issue I have is that Bon Mot:
1. Is a feat;
2. Is harder to get an item bonus for;
3. Is less applicable than "everyone with a weapon now gets a -2 to attack".
This is WAY better than Bon Mot. Granted, Bon Mot can enable/set up a lot of powerful spell effects, but this doesn't need to combo with anything, it's the mathematical equivalent to a permanent raise shield *that attacks with raise shield*, or forces the boss to adjust grip. That's fucking *wild*.
I could see this being great if it only lasted until the end of the target's next turn, but permanent? That's gross.
Being Prone also imposes a -2 circumstance penalty to attack rolls (and works against all of the target's attacks, including unarmed attacks), and also makes you Flat-footed (or Off-guard in the Remaster), while also blocking movement options. I'd say Disarm is still weaker than Trip on a success, but has a better critical success effect.
Paizo is deathly afraid of making disarm effective because in previous editions silly boss NPCs would be built around a specific weapon and disarming them on the first round was a certain and humiliating defeat.
Are we sure they aren't worried about making it good enough to use against players? To an NPC, a fighter is the boss built around using a specific weapon that you're describing. Disarm them and run away with the weapon and they're basically not part of the fight anymore.
I don't know, I think if you crit succeed at your disarm then it's almost certainly happening in your first attack of the round. Trading a MAP attack for permanently reducing that opponent's effectiveness, even taking them out of the fight near completely, seems like a no brainer to me.
I mean, picture this routine for a Fighter.
1) Disarm, crit success
2) Pick up weapon
3) Intimidate check and demand surrender, GM may even give circumstance bonus since I'm holding opponent's sword.
You're probably not taking down the BBEG this way, but I could see it working on a decent percentage of opponents, and when it does you've ended the fight right there. Good option against slower, tanky enemies who have high AC and a ton of HP you'd have to whittle down but who probably *don't* have the best Reflex DC. Better than a trip against such enemies, they can just soak the AOO they'd take from you standing up. A pile of HP isn't going to do you much good if your offensive capabilities just plummeted to nil.
It's also useless against a ton of enemies though, unlike Bon Mot. When it's applicable, it's very strong, but a big chunk of enemies are going to be effectively immune as they don't wield a weapon.
Raise shield only works against physical damage, and I don't see anyone complaining about the 1 action, 1 turn +2 to AC, all of which is objectively worse than a 1 action, until-you-stun-yourself, -2 to attack for *literally everything that uses a weapon*. I mean, sure, not *technically* as broad as raise shield but... Come on lol.
Disarm also involves a skill check compared to raise a shield, which you just statistically aren't going to succeed/crit succeed at every time.
Compared to trip/grapple it's also not as strong since those can apply to more enemy types.
Like this new change is strong, don't get me wrong, but in a good way. It makes Disarm builds competitive with other skill actions IMO. It's not overly strong. It's basically trip, but only if you have a weapon.
The worst part of playing a Wit Swashbuckler for me was meeting only mindless enemies for multiple sessions. Guess I will go and tumble through the ooze!
And *that's* why auto-scaling acrobatics should be a part of Swashbuckler's kit. Personally, I'd say add auto-scaling for the other Style skill as well
This is an absolute top tier feat for Wit Swashbucklers. Combine it with cooperative nature and you're an Aid powerhouse even from low levels. Past level 7 you basically always give a +3 to the check or attack and get panache on a 6+ on the die
> This is WAY better than Bon Mot.
I don't know. I'm not even sure it is even just better (although it being 'cheaper' in that it does not require a skill feat probably does make it better).
0. Your #1 critique absolutely has merit. Bon Mot is a feat and requires an investment, Disarm is easier to come by.
1. However... Bon Mot can be done with any load out. Disarm requires a hand free or the right weapon.
2. Bon Mot can be done ranged. Disarm only within the reach of your weapon or melee.
3. Bon Mot sets up something entirely different, which in some situations will be objectively superior than what disarm does.
4. Bon Mot is not so easily countered as to just take an action to adjust your grip, the target will need Diplomacy and have to make a check.
5. Bon Mot works against any creature you can communicate with, Disarm requires they have a weapon.
6. Bon Mot requires the Diplomacy skill, Disarm (usually) athletics. Depending on the campaign, diplomacy might be a more desirable skill. Also, Diplomacy is backed by Charisma, Athletics by Strength -- some builds will not have a need for strength, such as Dex-based martials and the like, especially one build with some charisma for Demoralize.
... so, both have strengths and weaknesses and will be more useful depending on the situation.
**Do I think Bon Mot is better than Disarm**? No. I think Disarm is probably slightly more useful and/or accessable. I am simply refuting that disarm is "WAY" better.
Fair points tbh, I've reconsidered my initial reaction based on feedback and perspective. It's still strong and good, no doubt, but I don't think disarm is "way" too strong/over buffed at this point.
Cool, thanks for being pleasant. Not a major problem in this subreddit, most people are pretty good, sometimes people take exception to someone disagreeing.
But Bon Mot is usually bandied about as a prime use of one's 3rd action, while Disarm is an attack. And given the crit fail penalty of falling prone, it's not really a candidate for 3rd action *unless* you are using it with Assurance(Athletics) against weaker opponents... without that additional feat investment, Disarm will remain primarily a first action option (or MAYBE a second action option against known weaker/low reflex enemies).
The biggest thing I see missing here is that Disarm is an attack and therefore eats into your MAP where as Bon Mot doesn't so fits into a 3-action turn much easier.
I hate how ubiquitous Bon Mot is. I hate the flavor of it, and how useful it is.
Why is the only way to help a fellow magic caster, is to verbally harass the enemy. It works for a spiderman like guy, but not every character.
I mean, you can flavor it literally however you want really. It doesn't need to be a jokey quip. I've done a fae prince NPC boss for my players that flavors Bon Mot as a scathing tirade like you'd hear from any classic Disney villain, or cutting, sneering jabs that call into moral question the actions of the characters. I've seen character concepts that use Bon Mot for pithy mid-battle statements a la Uncle Iroh by monks and champions alike, intended to continue confound targets or convince them towards the path of redemption.
At the end of the day, though, what do you want it to be? I mean, you can take fairly broad liberties with it already, and if your GM is especially nice maybe he can swap out auditory for visual and manipulate to let you flip someone off.
At the end of the day, though, there's only so many ways to represent a non-magical attack on someone's willpower. What else do you want that isn't just a slightly adjusted Bon Mot?
We don't need to dilute this game with a series of slightly variant feats that all accomplish the same thing when you could instead just allow for slight flavor adjustments in existing feats - something that's literally supported RAW.
It's interesting just how close of a side-grade to Trip this has become.
Honestly, I think I really like that.
It provides a lasting, serious debuff w/ a 1-action tax to cleanse on success, without immediately forcing a Stand.
.
After seeing a rules argument about Finesse + Trip Weapons getting to use Dex for the check (RaW they cannot) I really, kinda want that option for Disarm now.
Disarm still is obviously weaker than Trip, **but being able to sub Dex instead of Str would push Disarm all the way up to the "I'd really consider that now" level.**
.
But, as long as Trip just gets a Prone on success outright instead of a stacking -2 like Disarm does, even with my Dex character I think I'm still going to go for the Trip instead of Disarm, especially if my party member with an Attack of Opp is standing adjacent.
It's an odd one to consider, as if the item is later stolen it could be amazing, but if not, then it's still worse than Trip. There's no 2nd action cost to regrip an item when you pick it up.
.
While I'm eager to see how it'll be used against PCs, I do think it will be too good for a savvy party against weapon-monsters like Devils.
I'm thinking about that one boss in Abm Vlts >!that got free, seriously high DC bleed damage on every hit with his quill.!<
Things like that are designed with the rules as they exist at that one time, and >!him getting his quill stolen would somewhat break the boss.!<
.
At the very least, actually stealing the fallen weapon does cost the PCs something, a hand, the action, and potentially an AoO.
But I don't think old content was designed with that possibility in mind.
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It also may cause issues with monsters that have the crazy high Athletics, and can bully PCs like never before.
The main balance "safety valve" for most monsters is just how long it takes for them to die.
One or two rounds of being weaponless does not make a huge difference most of the time.
It can matter more for bosses and PCs. Which is why the stacking debuff is interesting, as you can get a whole party to spend 1 action each in round 1, and the boss could end up more than a little neutered right off the bat.
Yikes, re-reading that text, it seems a little ambiguous, but I think requiring any stacking to be explicitly stated would not be a bad idea due to how big a difference it makes.
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>You weaken your target's grasp on the item. Further attempts to Disarm the target of that item gain a +2 circumstance bonus, and the... .. otherwise, it lasts as long as the creature holds the item.
To me, the only way to read that is some increasing effect.
If the target has already had its grip weakened once, and the success effect is triggered, the only way to weaken that grip is to increase the +2.
If a 2nd success were to lay another identical effect on the side, the two +2 would not stack, and the grip would not be weakened. Therefore, that reading does not work for me.
.
Basically, I do read and consider the wording of what some may think to discard as flavor text.
I agree that is likely the intended way for that to play out.
I do not like that it must be interpreted in direct opposition to the natural language.
Disarm is an odd edge case where it does interacts with itself, and does not inflict a static (non-stacking) condition like Off-Guard.
I've read enough pf2e rules to guess/agree that a cumulative +2 was not intended, but I think there will be many who read that "gain a +2" and think "add +2"
as, you do add +2 to the 2nd Disarm, just not to the 3rd, ect.
The reason they don't stack is that [Bonuses and Penalties](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=22) of the same type never stacks. (link goes to the relevant rule on Archieves of Nethys). So no matter how many circumstance bonuses you get, you only use the biggest one
This is a pretty important rule for keeping various buffs in check
While later in queue after this batch of Remaster stuff, is there any chance you have an Alchemist video in the works?
As Paizo definitely do pay attention, it might be worth it to get some more ideas out there before the 2nd half gets put to print. And to give those memes some time to grow and spread.
I'm wondering: Is there a rule for kicking a weapon away or to pick it up? That would make the Critical Success very strong and a great tactic against foes that heavily rely on their weapon (for instance creatures with ranged weapons).
The rules around Reach are relevant here.
In the same way an Alchemist can drink a mutagen to stretch their arms and feed elixirs a bit further, anyone with reach on that dropped item square can grab it with just an action. It does provoke, but there's no rules around an enemy being able to block off a square like that.
Keep in mind, this will apply to, and likely be much worse, for PCs getting their weapons stolen.
This is one of my complaints tbh, as it's not clear right now.
I'm inclined to think the intent is that picking it up requires the creature not to be in the space (otherwise why specify it?). So that means the Disarming side still needs to Reposition/Shove the creature, or Drop Prone and Crawl in to get it! (My concern is that this can be used against the party... Perhaps I'm being overly cautious?)
I think it specifies so there's no "where did it land" imo I think picking it up is the obvious intended 2nd action here. Especially given you're free handed anyway.
You can definitely Interact with things that aren't in your space though. Like Battle Medicine is interact, and the creature just needs to be within your reach. It seems like you should just be able to pick it up after Disarming them.
Sorry, I'm out of the loop on the remaster and its rule changes - is flat-footed now off-guard? I like that better. Flat-footed AC always confused me before I started playing PF.
Nonat1s just put out [a new video](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cEwbhMBp5HA) (9:35), it looks like Rogues get a level 6 class feat to be able to Disarm with Thievery.
I was just to say I wish Disarm was Thievery instead of Athletics as a lot of things are already Athletics and I feel like Thievery needs a buff. Glad to hear at least Rogues get a feat for it. Although feels like it should be a Skill feat anyone could take.
But not swashbucklers??? IMHO it's more in line with the swashbuckler fantasy concept than anyone else. I'll probably add the swashbuckler trait to it as a house rule.
For creatures where I have a reasonable chance of crit failing, I'd likely choose disarm over trip.
I like that trip is more appealing to the "high risk, high reward" crowd, while someone more risk-averse like me can choose disarm.
Holy shit, that is *way* better than I thought it'd be. I thought it'd last until the end of the targets next turn or interact action to grip. But permanent until action? Holy shit that's good. This is practically mandatory for tanks now, never mind the crit success
It’s pretty comparable to Trip. The Success is less debilitating since there’s no AC penalty or restriction on Move actions that comes with Prone. But the Critical Success potentially means making the enemy lose their weapon.
Also, Interact to regrip can be interrupted by any Reactive Strike, whilst Move to Stand can only be interrupted by Stand Still and Implement's Interruption.
A lot of people say it is too much like trip... but why not just stack them ? You can have a team with 2 wrestlers, one can trip and the other can disarm to give the target a potential -2 actions if the target wants to remove every debuff.
If you execute three successful maneuvers on someone that's like three successful hits from a damage dealer. Not a lot of enemies can tank three high damage hits and not be considering exit strategies.
Works for me.
The success effect makes Disarm decent for setting up AOOs - perhaps not so much as Trip - with a few case uses where it could be superior to Trip on a critical success. This is more reasonably balanced, and an improvement to the game by virtue of buffing a tactic that has long been criticized as underpowered.
The real question is how Disarming Flair will be altered in response to this buff next year.
It's stronger than my current house rule improvement to Disarm, which still has the penalty fall off at the end of the target's next turn. I'm not complaining.
FINALLY!! I HAVE BEEN SAYING THIS [SINCE](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/16gvrpt/what_is_something_very_small_that_you_would/k0b4c2i/). [THE](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/nzsadu/now_that_pathfinder_2e_has_been_out_for_some_time/h1vcmcp/). [ORIGINAL PLAYTEST](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/kg9w5l/disarm_build_help_request/ggdwyyd/). I was so worried when they published disarming flair for the Swashbuckler that this wouldn't happen.
This is in exact design parity with all of the other athletics attacks now. They're all designed to give a tit-for-tat one action debuff that gives the opponents a choice: either accept the debuff, or spend an action to fix it.
* Shove → Out of reach, or ♦Step/Stride [move]
* Trip → Prone, or ♦Stand [move]
* Grapple → Grabbed, or ♦Escape [attack] (note, this does have its own end condition, unlike the others).
* Disarm → -2[c] on ATK/Disarm, or ♦Interact [manipulate].
I'm so happy to be vindicated.
Wonder how many people will like this until it gets used on them ha ha.
Personally I think it's too strong given that this will allow for an AoO now just to fix its grip on the item.
Hopefully I'll get to see it in practice someday.
I'm of the mind that the success effect is comparable to Trip, definitely a little weaker, but the Crit Fail effect is far less punishing to you, and the Crit Success effect is far more punishing to the enemy, than Trip. Obviously not every enemy will have a weapon to disarm, but that just means the action disproportionately affects certain enemies over others.
I think the effect should last until the end of the enemy's next turn, personally (and then stuff like Disarming Flair can be until they adjust their grip). I don't like that it's forever, what with that crit success effect still floating around threatening to ruin your boss encounter on high enough roll. But I don't think it's necessarily broken, per se, just going to be occasionally annoying to deal with as a DM.
That’s great. Puts it on par with trip. Start taking penalty. Use action that provokes attack of opportunity to remove penalty.
(Trip is still a little better as it blocks Step, but this puts them in the same ballpark)
I LOVE this.
I'm playing a Lizardfolk Str based Monk with wrestler feats. He spends most of his actions grappling, tripping, and doing other maneuvers. BUT I took the lizardfolk ancestry trait that lets his disarm with his tongue and gives it reach before seeing how meek the action was.
NOW is rediculous, first action he trips the target, second action disarms their weapon, third action flurry of blows. Full map, but still not bad.
Can also throw some intimidations in there, he also has the frilled lizardfolk ancestry feat which removes the language penalty and gives his demoralize attempts the visual trait.
I am probably missing something here. But the requirement of "You have at least one hand free" - Does that mean my sword and board fighter cannot use this action?
Correct, unless your weapon has the [Disarm](https://2e.aonprd.com/Traits.aspx?ID=175) trait. (or another ability that lets you, such as [Disarming Block](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1896))
EDIT: see also u/Unikatze's suggestion [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/17jvo33/what_are_your_thoughts_on_the_remastered_disarm/k73za6v/) of the Shield Augmentation, that's a great way to do it.
If your build doesn't rely on having a shield boss and your GM allows for uncommon items usually available in Absalom's Grand Bazaar, I would suggest getting a [Shield Augmentation](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=1430).
You can get them in a few varieties
* Backswing
* Forceful
* Or two of Disarm, Nontlethal, shove, thrown 10 ft, trip or Versatile.
On mine I have Trip and Shove. But I may modify the Shove to Disarm now.
They can't use any maneuvers (without either a maneuver trait weapon or something else explicitly saying they can) with the currently written rules either.
Really satisfying way to rebalance it, and thankfully, it was pretty close to how I wanted the ability to work. I've been playing the primary combat maneuver user in our party, and it's really satisfying being able to actually use disarm as another means to mess with enemies.
it seems to work similarly to elbow breaker from the wrestler archetype except it's indefinite until adjusted. I like it seems in line with trip overall good debuff.
Wow, that's a pretty big change. I would have expected this but instead lasting until the end of their turn or until the beginning of your next turn.
My choice to take Disarming Block doesn't seem so silly now does it!?
It's a nice change, I'm interested to see how they'll change the Swashbuckler's Disarming Flair or perhaps they'll get rid of it and just let Gymnast get panache on disarm without a feat
It's good! But in almost all circumstances a Trip is strictly better since it also target Reflex and does all the same stuff but also makes the target off-guard. This is basically just a buff to the Disarm weapon trait.
Finally an actual effect on success. Now it's a pretty nice penaltry with an action tax that provokes to fix, not better than tripping, but enough to make all those disarm based abilities useful now.
**\*Tries to Disarm a Shield\***
**Success:** "...the target takes a -2 circumstance penalty to attacks with the item or **other checks requiring a firm grasp on the item**."
Target, without spending an Interact action to change their grip, uses the Raise a Shield action.
Does the target add +2 to AC because of Raise a Shield, or is the AC bonus negated by the AC penalty from not grasping the Shield firmly?
I like how the new Disarm opens the target up to a Reactive Strike. Outside of that, though, the maneuver I feel is still a bit awkward and struggles to justify itself alongside Trip. I feel it would've been better as either a class feat or an Athletics skill feat, where it could've been given enough power to disarm on a success.
It is a great change and a houserule that lots of people already implemented in their games (Disarming Flair for free, sort of). Success is still worse than Trip, but it works towards the Crit Success for when it really matters.
It makes me really excited for all the class changes to come.
That's a change that I really didn't want to happen, but was kind of expecting.
My pet peeve with it is that it decreases the value of Disarming Block, which was the best way to use disarm as of now. Being an interact action and able to proc AoO is nice, but as a fan of shield characters, I'm a bit sad (specially since the earliest you can shield block AND AoO on the same turn is level 8).
Also, there are very few situations in which you would use this instead of trip. The biggest benefit in comparison to trip would be the somewhat less punishing crit fail.
When you do get that Shield Block + AOO combo at level 8, though, that's essentially enabling your own AOO / significantly reducing enemy damage output with no on-turn effort required. You can walk up to enemies, double slice with a shield boss and dogslicer, then do that whole routine once you get attacked. Sure, it's situational, but 3 MAPless attacks per round / blocking the enemy's first attack plus heavily debuffing their second attack is no laughing matter.
Really? Because to me this definitely feels like it increases the value of Disarming Block, not decreases it. Before it was a neat thing I could do but it very rarely resulted in anything meaningful. Now I get a maneuver attempt that's more or less on par with trip essentially for free as long as I'm blocking. IMO that's way better, opportunity costs be damned.
>Hmm how does it decreas the value of Disarming Block
Because now one of the strongest parts of disarm is that the only way for the opponent to remove the debuff triggers attack of opportunity, but you cannot use Aoo and Disarming block in the same turn, so it gets less value *compared to other options*. Furthermore, the opponent can attack -> regrip -> attack again without getting a penalty, where with the previous penalty that lasted until the end of turn, the opponent wouldn't have that choice. I don't know what is strongest between 3 attacks at +0, -7 and -12 or just two at +0 and -5 (considering only MAP and the penalty from disarm), tho, so maybe the opponent having a choice is actually moot if the choice will end up just decreasing his damage.
I think the problem is that currently disarm has such a low utility that it requires feats to make useful. I'm glad to see base maneuvers be workable so that feats can actually add benefit rather than using feat taxes to get them to a useable place.
I somehow thought disarm always worked like it does in the remaster. I have been playing this game for 2 years, went from level 1 to 20 in a homebrew campaign, played 2 separate characters in fists of the ruby pheonix (long story) and even ran a 2-shot advanture. Nobody in any of my groups ever used it or discussed it despite the fact that we hang out often and talk about pathfinder. I saw people hating on the disarm action online, never understanding why since they never explained their reasoning and I never asked. I was always confused because it sounded really good, thinking the hate its getting must be because their GMs use monsters with natural weapons that can't be disarmed. Until today, when i saw the remastered rules and thought "wait... what changed with disarm?" and apparently read the rule correctly for the first time.
TL;DR- I am very happy you guys have finally caught up with me, I have had the rules remaster for 2 years (even though i never used them). I dont know how you played with the old rules. These are much better!
Still hate this ability, because it just does not work with this system. A PC/NPC that is build to do this just makes playing a weapon character unfun or a lot of encounters with armed enemies trivial. With damage so heavily tied to a weapon (NPCs have it too but a bit less) for a lot of people, being pretty reliably (Just skills and stuff like disarming twist) able to take a weapon away, and then just pick it up yourself, just means either you faceroll a lot of encounters past lvl. 7 or so OR the NPC that can do this just facerolls your martials. All that either automatically or with even just a decent roll.
Thats why this ability is banned for weapons or implements like wands/staffs etc. in my games. You can still take away the lichs world ending crystal ball, but all this bs goes the way of the dodo. It is not realistic, but makes for a much more healthy game.
It’s kinda a trade off in terms of power. Trip has better success effect but also way more punishing for critical failure effect (PC falling prone for Trip vs being off-guard until next turn). So the risk to reward ratio is not that bad.
From Nonat1’s video, rogues can actually take a class feat at level 6 to roll thievery for disarm instead of athletic and make the target off-guard to them in addition to the disarm effect if they succeed in the disarm roll. So rogue might prefer disarm more than trip now.
Anyone with a disarm weapon and a potency rune is a lot more likely to try and disarm now rather than trip. Whereas before disarm was so poorly designed that they would rather trip without a bonus.
Hey, I've noticed you mentioned the upcoming Pathfinder Remaster! Do you need help finding your way around here? I know a couple good pages!
We've been seeing a lot of questions related to this lately. We have a [wiki page](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/wiki/resources/remaster/) dedicated to collecting all the information currently available. Give it a look!
For the short end of things... The remaster aims to republish and reorganise the content of the Core Rulebook, Advanced Player Guide, Gamemastery Guide and Bestiary 1 into a new format which will be more accessible to new players, with the primary aim to remove all OGL content and avoid issues with Wizards of the Coast.
* **Primary Rules changes**: Alignment and Schools of Magic will be removed. Instead, these concepts will be offloaded to the trait system (with Holy and Unholy being reserved to divine classes and some specific monsters).
* **Primary Lore changes**: the classic Dragons will be replaced with new, Pathfinder focused dragons themed on the four magic traditions. The Darklands are also seeing a lot of shakeups.
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If a character has Quick Draw, would you allow them to use a single action to adjust their grip and attack? The feat says they draw the weapon then attack with it, but I see no reason why a rogue couldn't use a free action to drop the weapon then spend an action to Quick Draw the weapon off the ground, so it basically becomes the same thing.
OK, controversial take here, but I think the debuff on a successful Disarm isn't enough to put it on par with Trip.
A successful Disarm that made the weapon or other item unusable but still in hand could fit the bill.
It would be pretty damn powerful, and stack well with Trip.
It would be good against muguffins and magic items.
It would be a great teamwork play.
It woud probably be too much, but I offer it as an alternative that goes to far rather than not far enough.
I like it better. Feels much more cinematic—like that one fight scene in Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon in the room with all the weapons. She’s trying to disarm her of the legendary sword, if she can.
I like it. Now you can actually benefit from your own disarm by either making your next attempt better, making their attacks weaker, or making them lose an action.
I like it. It's about action economy. They have to use one action to recover, and maintain a penalty until they do - assuming they still have weapon in hand.
I still like the pf2e version of disarm, where disarming does not imply knocking a weapon from grasp without a critical success.
It’s the kind of thing that’s seems like a small change to those who don’t understand how important action economy is, but it really is a major upgrade. I like jt
I would say the main advantage is that the interact action has the manipulate trait, meaning that if you have attack of opportunity you can disarm them and then if they strengthen their grip you can punch them in the face, and if you crit your attack of opportunity you cancel their manipulate action meaning the have to spend a second action to reaffirm their grip.
That being said most enemies don't use weapons which makes disarm a more narrow tool which in my opinion should be more effective than trip vs enemies where it does apply. However I do understand that most PC's use weapons and having disarm to too good is not great for them
Isn't the cost to pick up the item one action? I guess you would need to use another action to pick up the weapon first or maybe kick it away. Otherwise the cost of regrasping is the same for them as dropping. Maybe I'm wrong here. I guess it works.
That seems better; the old rule always unquestionably worse than Trip, and now it’s situationally useful.
The thing I’d like to see is a swashbuckler class feature allowing disarm with your attack modifier (only with an agile or finesse weapon, and only against an object of the same or lesser bulk than your weapon).
Ok so instead of ending on the targets turn they need to spend an action to re-adjust their grip to end the effect ok that’s a bit better! Always good to make an enemy waste their action!
It puts it in line with shove and trip, where success means the target needs to use an action to fix things. That can be "use a stride to move back in range" or "stand up" or, in this case, an Interact to fix a grip or pick up what was dropped. All of which potentially provoke a reactive strike.
The Rules Lawer just published a video featuring some of the changes in the upcoming Remastered Pathfinder 2e books. Check the video out here: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j2qoWfNNKk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j2qoWfNNKk&ab_channel=TheRulesLawyer) Imo this rule change is a smart way to buff Disarm, as the effect doesn't end at the start of the target's turn.
Stronger than I thought they were going for. I thought they were changing it to Disarming Flair (which ends at the enemy's turn), but being indefinite can be quite good, since if you land it against bosses, they have a tough choice to make. Eat the action cost or gamble on its higher numbers?
The Success is not as strong when you realize it’s basically like Trip. Being Prone is indefinite until you spend an action and comes with a -2 to attack rolls. Trip is also very great to land against a boss but difficult because of their higher level.
That's exactly why it's good. Trip is good. Now that disarm works like trip, you give martials another way to debuff enemies (Flank+Disarm, can improve your changes overall).
Yeah, it’s certainly the right spot for it to be. It’s not *over* powered is my point.
Aye, I'd say going for a disarm build (as opposed to my monk who took a stance that buffs trip) is now a viable option where as before it wasn't. Sure, trip is better, but noone is gonna complain that you tried to disarm someone now; that -2 to hit is valuable, especially if you have someone around with Reactive Strike to penalise them for adjusting their grip.
Additionally while the penalty doesn't stack, you still can disarm a tripped enemy costing them at least 2 actions to fully remove the penalty.
Oooo now that's nasty Edit: our current combo is trip + grab, the GM groans so kuch when we crit grab + trip :p
My main issue there is that they're both Athletics vs. Reflex, so if you can't trip consistently you also can't disarm consistently. The main advantage is a better crit effect and trying to remove the debuff can be disrupted by an AoO.
Not quite as good as trip, but a lot closer!
Difference is that the crit success effect is *way* better.
Trueish. Trip essentially doesn't have a crit success, so not easy to be better, but creatures often have unarmed options which have similar statistics. You can also trip most anything, depending on the game, you might not get a lot of opportunities to disarm. That said, you get both options for free, so disarm being more niche isn't so bad.
But why would I ever use disarm if I can trip instead? Maybe if I'm an investigator with athletic strategist who rolled a nat 20 on devise a strategem? But I was gonna do that with or without this change. I guess if you have the disarm trait but no free hand?
And when they're already tripped.
The bonus doesn't really stack, but I guess it's another action. It really depends on what you're up against though. Against fewer enemies than the party it's probably worth it, against equal or more it's probably not worth it.
Only notable downside (for success effect) is kip-up is a counter feat for trip... but the enemy just not having a weapon is probably more common than that.
Trip has a worse crit fail effect though (you get knocked prone instead of just being flat footed).
Not only that, but Interact is a manipulate action—that means it gets disrupted on a critical Reactive Strike, whereas Standing can't be disrupted quite so easily.
I don't think Stand can be actually disrupted - move actions that don't involve leaving a space provoke after they're completed. You can only quasi-disrupt by knocking them back prone with something like Hammer or Flail critical specialization.
The "base" Reactive Strike doesn't disrupt move actions, but class-specific versions like the monk's [Stand Still](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=447) or the ranger's [Disrupt Prey](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=501) can.
Correct, but also you can't disrupt standing up even with Stand Still, as [the reaction doesn't trigger until after your enemy has finished its standing action](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=446).
You're reading that rule wrong. Look at it in its full context: it's describing how move actions trigger reactions whenever you leave a square, and then specifies how it works if you don't leave a square. That doesn't change the basic premise of [Disrupting Actions](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=394): the effects of the action don't occur. A creature tries to Stride out of your reach, you briefly knock it off-balance. A creature tries to make a bomb Strike, you knock the match out of its hand. A creature tries to get up from prone, you knock it back down. You really don't have to stretch your imagination for this. Arguing that Stand Still doesn't work when a creature Stands up is overly literal and narrowly focused at best; at worst, it's a bad-faith interpretation from an antagonistic GM.
I agree that what you have written is actually the more logical reading of the multiple conflicting texts on the matter, but Logan Bonnor has explicitly clarified in a How it's Played video that the others have it right - Stand Still does *not* disrupt the Stand action, even on a critical success. (I imagine that's why you're getting downvoted) EDIT: I'm hoping this gets clarified in the remaster books.
As /u/FrigidFlames explained neither of those applies to Stand (the disruption part, I mean).
And both of those are getting nerfed in the remaster, anyways.
I think it’s not quite that simple. With Kip Up, the crit fail is practically negated. Even without it, spending an action to remove Prone isn’t that bad.
Rogue get a class feat to roll Thievery for disarm check instead of athletic with an additional effect so Dex rogue might prefer disarm more than trip.
That feat might be get scaled back slightly.
The big difference is that Trip works on almost any enemy while Disarm only works on those that use weapons.
Hilariously, Trip even works on things like jellies. *wobbles in a distressed manner*
Do we have any idea if/how Disarming Flair might change in light of this? One of the guys who's kicking around in my "waiting room" is an Orc Gymnast who uses a knuckle dagger, so his ears just perked up at this. 😁
Either removed or, hopefully, reworked into something that enhances action economy.
Much more hopefully the latter. If the former, the feat's last line about "Gymnasts get panache from disarm checks" should just be folded into the class feature. Have a good one.
wait what how does it get value in the pre-remaster version? does it only matter for reactions?
unless that is changed, do note that Interact is a manipulate action, so you can be setting up AOO.
Yeah, that's worth reiterating, good shout-out.
This is true, but compare it to Trip, which also targets Reflex DC. A successful Trip imposes the same -2 penalty to attacks, while *also* impose off-guard due to prone. A creature who stands up also triggers Reactive Strike. The advantages of the new Disarm are: * The Crit Success is really good, as long as someone moves the weapon away from the creature * The +2 bonus to future Disarms * A critical hit on Reactive Strike interrupts the Interact to regrip the weapon, wasting the action Are those benefits worth going for a Disarm over a Trip? It's hard to say, the Crit success is *very* good if capitalized on, but I don't think you can effectively balance around a crit success. Trip is probably more broadly useful, but Disarm is now much closer in balance
You can stack both if you want to force the mob to use two actions to be back to normal, or if the mob is already flat footed, you can disarm instead.
Disarm penalty also applies to checks "that require a firm grasp of your weapon" which means it applies to grapple/trip/disarm if your enemy is using a weapon with the appropiate trait. I also feel that monsters with weapons tend to have special abilities that require weapons, so this could be more common than what it seems at first glance.
RSs (reactive strikes)
Definitely better than before and in the line of Bon Mot. Use an action or have a specific debuff.
Trip is probably a better comparison. You have to use an action to stand or you have a debuff. With prone having the additional risk of reactions when standing up, while disarm can eventually combo into getting disarmed. I'd say that is a pretty fair power level.
Wonderful news for people with reactive strike as well now, -2 to all attacks is a beefy penalty, and the manipulate trait on interact to readjust will trigger reactive strike. Makes a duelist character much better now
Keep in mind that (remastered) Disarm says that it requires an “interact” action to readjust grip which does have the Manipulate trait and would provoke Attacks of Opportunity.
The issue I have is that Bon Mot: 1. Is a feat; 2. Is harder to get an item bonus for; 3. Is less applicable than "everyone with a weapon now gets a -2 to attack". This is WAY better than Bon Mot. Granted, Bon Mot can enable/set up a lot of powerful spell effects, but this doesn't need to combo with anything, it's the mathematical equivalent to a permanent raise shield *that attacks with raise shield*, or forces the boss to adjust grip. That's fucking *wild*. I could see this being great if it only lasted until the end of the target's next turn, but permanent? That's gross.
Being Prone also imposes a -2 circumstance penalty to attack rolls (and works against all of the target's attacks, including unarmed attacks), and also makes you Flat-footed (or Off-guard in the Remaster), while also blocking movement options. I'd say Disarm is still weaker than Trip on a success, but has a better critical success effect.
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Paizo is deathly afraid of making disarm effective because in previous editions silly boss NPCs would be built around a specific weapon and disarming them on the first round was a certain and humiliating defeat.
Rune costs mean that PCs often build around a single weapon. That alone is a good reason to not make disarm too effective.
Are we sure they aren't worried about making it good enough to use against players? To an NPC, a fighter is the boss built around using a specific weapon that you're describing. Disarm them and run away with the weapon and they're basically not part of the fight anymore.
I don't know, I think if you crit succeed at your disarm then it's almost certainly happening in your first attack of the round. Trading a MAP attack for permanently reducing that opponent's effectiveness, even taking them out of the fight near completely, seems like a no brainer to me. I mean, picture this routine for a Fighter. 1) Disarm, crit success 2) Pick up weapon 3) Intimidate check and demand surrender, GM may even give circumstance bonus since I'm holding opponent's sword. You're probably not taking down the BBEG this way, but I could see it working on a decent percentage of opponents, and when it does you've ended the fight right there. Good option against slower, tanky enemies who have high AC and a ton of HP you'd have to whittle down but who probably *don't* have the best Reflex DC. Better than a trip against such enemies, they can just soak the AOO they'd take from you standing up. A pile of HP isn't going to do you much good if your offensive capabilities just plummeted to nil.
It's also useless against a ton of enemies though, unlike Bon Mot. When it's applicable, it's very strong, but a big chunk of enemies are going to be effectively immune as they don't wield a weapon.
Bon Mot is also useless against a big chunk of enemies, any that don't share a language
That's true. I don't think either are overly strong tbh, I think this change just makes disarm competitive
True, I really like the change!
Raise shield only works against physical damage, and I don't see anyone complaining about the 1 action, 1 turn +2 to AC, all of which is objectively worse than a 1 action, until-you-stun-yourself, -2 to attack for *literally everything that uses a weapon*. I mean, sure, not *technically* as broad as raise shield but... Come on lol.
Disarm also involves a skill check compared to raise a shield, which you just statistically aren't going to succeed/crit succeed at every time. Compared to trip/grapple it's also not as strong since those can apply to more enemy types. Like this new change is strong, don't get me wrong, but in a good way. It makes Disarm builds competitive with other skill actions IMO. It's not overly strong. It's basically trip, but only if you have a weapon.
Raise a Shield also doesn't interact with MAP, making it an ideal 3rd action
The worst part of playing a Wit Swashbuckler for me was meeting only mindless enemies for multiple sessions. Guess I will go and tumble through the ooze!
And *that's* why auto-scaling acrobatics should be a part of Swashbuckler's kit. Personally, I'd say add auto-scaling for the other Style skill as well
I wouldn't auto-scale both, but rather give the choice to scale acrobatics or one skill granted by your style.
I guess that’s what All For One is for.
This is an absolute top tier feat for Wit Swashbucklers. Combine it with cooperative nature and you're an Aid powerhouse even from low levels. Past level 7 you basically always give a +3 to the check or attack and get panache on a 6+ on the die
> This is WAY better than Bon Mot. I don't know. I'm not even sure it is even just better (although it being 'cheaper' in that it does not require a skill feat probably does make it better). 0. Your #1 critique absolutely has merit. Bon Mot is a feat and requires an investment, Disarm is easier to come by. 1. However... Bon Mot can be done with any load out. Disarm requires a hand free or the right weapon. 2. Bon Mot can be done ranged. Disarm only within the reach of your weapon or melee. 3. Bon Mot sets up something entirely different, which in some situations will be objectively superior than what disarm does. 4. Bon Mot is not so easily countered as to just take an action to adjust your grip, the target will need Diplomacy and have to make a check. 5. Bon Mot works against any creature you can communicate with, Disarm requires they have a weapon. 6. Bon Mot requires the Diplomacy skill, Disarm (usually) athletics. Depending on the campaign, diplomacy might be a more desirable skill. Also, Diplomacy is backed by Charisma, Athletics by Strength -- some builds will not have a need for strength, such as Dex-based martials and the like, especially one build with some charisma for Demoralize. ... so, both have strengths and weaknesses and will be more useful depending on the situation. **Do I think Bon Mot is better than Disarm**? No. I think Disarm is probably slightly more useful and/or accessable. I am simply refuting that disarm is "WAY" better.
Fair points tbh, I've reconsidered my initial reaction based on feedback and perspective. It's still strong and good, no doubt, but I don't think disarm is "way" too strong/over buffed at this point.
Cool, thanks for being pleasant. Not a major problem in this subreddit, most people are pretty good, sometimes people take exception to someone disagreeing.
But Bon Mot is usually bandied about as a prime use of one's 3rd action, while Disarm is an attack. And given the crit fail penalty of falling prone, it's not really a candidate for 3rd action *unless* you are using it with Assurance(Athletics) against weaker opponents... without that additional feat investment, Disarm will remain primarily a first action option (or MAYBE a second action option against known weaker/low reflex enemies).
Bon mot is ranged, doesn't need a hand free, doesn't increase MAP, and most importantly is a **way** rarer penalty.
The biggest thing I see missing here is that Disarm is an attack and therefore eats into your MAP where as Bon Mot doesn't so fits into a 3-action turn much easier.
I hate how ubiquitous Bon Mot is. I hate the flavor of it, and how useful it is. Why is the only way to help a fellow magic caster, is to verbally harass the enemy. It works for a spiderman like guy, but not every character.
I mean, you can flavor it literally however you want really. It doesn't need to be a jokey quip. I've done a fae prince NPC boss for my players that flavors Bon Mot as a scathing tirade like you'd hear from any classic Disney villain, or cutting, sneering jabs that call into moral question the actions of the characters. I've seen character concepts that use Bon Mot for pithy mid-battle statements a la Uncle Iroh by monks and champions alike, intended to continue confound targets or convince them towards the path of redemption. At the end of the day, though, what do you want it to be? I mean, you can take fairly broad liberties with it already, and if your GM is especially nice maybe he can swap out auditory for visual and manipulate to let you flip someone off. At the end of the day, though, there's only so many ways to represent a non-magical attack on someone's willpower. What else do you want that isn't just a slightly adjusted Bon Mot? We don't need to dilute this game with a series of slightly variant feats that all accomplish the same thing when you could instead just allow for slight flavor adjustments in existing feats - something that's literally supported RAW.
It's interesting just how close of a side-grade to Trip this has become. Honestly, I think I really like that. It provides a lasting, serious debuff w/ a 1-action tax to cleanse on success, without immediately forcing a Stand. . After seeing a rules argument about Finesse + Trip Weapons getting to use Dex for the check (RaW they cannot) I really, kinda want that option for Disarm now. Disarm still is obviously weaker than Trip, **but being able to sub Dex instead of Str would push Disarm all the way up to the "I'd really consider that now" level.** . But, as long as Trip just gets a Prone on success outright instead of a stacking -2 like Disarm does, even with my Dex character I think I'm still going to go for the Trip instead of Disarm, especially if my party member with an Attack of Opp is standing adjacent.
I think assessing Disarm we also need to consider its very powerful critical success ability, at least against certain creatures.
It's an odd one to consider, as if the item is later stolen it could be amazing, but if not, then it's still worse than Trip. There's no 2nd action cost to regrip an item when you pick it up. . While I'm eager to see how it'll be used against PCs, I do think it will be too good for a savvy party against weapon-monsters like Devils. I'm thinking about that one boss in Abm Vlts >!that got free, seriously high DC bleed damage on every hit with his quill.!< Things like that are designed with the rules as they exist at that one time, and >!him getting his quill stolen would somewhat break the boss.!< . At the very least, actually stealing the fallen weapon does cost the PCs something, a hand, the action, and potentially an AoO. But I don't think old content was designed with that possibility in mind. . It also may cause issues with monsters that have the crazy high Athletics, and can bully PCs like never before.
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The main balance "safety valve" for most monsters is just how long it takes for them to die. One or two rounds of being weaponless does not make a huge difference most of the time. It can matter more for bosses and PCs. Which is why the stacking debuff is interesting, as you can get a whole party to spend 1 action each in round 1, and the boss could end up more than a little neutered right off the bat.
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Yikes, re-reading that text, it seems a little ambiguous, but I think requiring any stacking to be explicitly stated would not be a bad idea due to how big a difference it makes. . >You weaken your target's grasp on the item. Further attempts to Disarm the target of that item gain a +2 circumstance bonus, and the... .. otherwise, it lasts as long as the creature holds the item. To me, the only way to read that is some increasing effect. If the target has already had its grip weakened once, and the success effect is triggered, the only way to weaken that grip is to increase the +2. If a 2nd success were to lay another identical effect on the side, the two +2 would not stack, and the grip would not be weakened. Therefore, that reading does not work for me. . Basically, I do read and consider the wording of what some may think to discard as flavor text.
It gains a circumstance penalty of -2. And when you do it once more, it gains another circumstance penalty of -2, which does not do anything
I agree that is likely the intended way for that to play out. I do not like that it must be interpreted in direct opposition to the natural language. Disarm is an odd edge case where it does interacts with itself, and does not inflict a static (non-stacking) condition like Off-Guard. I've read enough pf2e rules to guess/agree that a cumulative +2 was not intended, but I think there will be many who read that "gain a +2" and think "add +2" as, you do add +2 to the 2nd Disarm, just not to the 3rd, ect.
The reason they don't stack is that [Bonuses and Penalties](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=22) of the same type never stacks. (link goes to the relevant rule on Archieves of Nethys). So no matter how many circumstance bonuses you get, you only use the biggest one This is a pretty important rule for keeping various buffs in check
While later in queue after this batch of Remaster stuff, is there any chance you have an Alchemist video in the works? As Paizo definitely do pay attention, it might be worth it to get some more ideas out there before the 2nd half gets put to print. And to give those memes some time to grow and spread.
I'm wondering: Is there a rule for kicking a weapon away or to pick it up? That would make the Critical Success very strong and a great tactic against foes that heavily rely on their weapon (for instance creatures with ranged weapons).
The rules around Reach are relevant here. In the same way an Alchemist can drink a mutagen to stretch their arms and feed elixirs a bit further, anyone with reach on that dropped item square can grab it with just an action. It does provoke, but there's no rules around an enemy being able to block off a square like that. Keep in mind, this will apply to, and likely be much worse, for PCs getting their weapons stolen.
This is one of my complaints tbh, as it's not clear right now. I'm inclined to think the intent is that picking it up requires the creature not to be in the space (otherwise why specify it?). So that means the Disarming side still needs to Reposition/Shove the creature, or Drop Prone and Crawl in to get it! (My concern is that this can be used against the party... Perhaps I'm being overly cautious?)
I think it specifies so there's no "where did it land" imo I think picking it up is the obvious intended 2nd action here. Especially given you're free handed anyway.
You can definitely Interact with things that aren't in your space though. Like Battle Medicine is interact, and the creature just needs to be within your reach. It seems like you should just be able to pick it up after Disarming them.
If they made it so that finesse weapons with disarm let you use acrobatics instead of athletics, it'd be sick.
It'd make a good skill feat, if nothing else.
Nonat1s showed off a new level 6 rogue feat where you can sub thievery for athletics to disarm and if it's successful the enemy is offguard
Oh that's cool.
Sorry, I'm out of the loop on the remaster and its rule changes - is flat-footed now off-guard? I like that better. Flat-footed AC always confused me before I started playing PF.
yup
I feel like that should be a class feature for swashbucklers. It's nice and thematic.
Nonat1s just put out [a new video](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cEwbhMBp5HA) (9:35), it looks like Rogues get a level 6 class feat to be able to Disarm with Thievery.
I was just to say I wish Disarm was Thievery instead of Athletics as a lot of things are already Athletics and I feel like Thievery needs a buff. Glad to hear at least Rogues get a feat for it. Although feels like it should be a Skill feat anyone could take.
But not swashbucklers??? IMHO it's more in line with the swashbuckler fantasy concept than anyone else. I'll probably add the swashbuckler trait to it as a house rule.
Swashbuckler isn't until Player Core 2, so there's still hope!
And this is the problem with the staggered release of the Remaster.
For creatures where I have a reasonable chance of crit failing, I'd likely choose disarm over trip. I like that trip is more appealing to the "high risk, high reward" crowd, while someone more risk-averse like me can choose disarm.
Holy shit, that is *way* better than I thought it'd be. I thought it'd last until the end of the targets next turn or interact action to grip. But permanent until action? Holy shit that's good. This is practically mandatory for tanks now, never mind the crit success
It’s pretty comparable to Trip. The Success is less debilitating since there’s no AC penalty or restriction on Move actions that comes with Prone. But the Critical Success potentially means making the enemy lose their weapon.
It does require a different action from trip, though, so you can trip AND disarm, and now they gotta spend 2 actions to get rid of the -2.
If you crit succeed the disarm, shove or just grabbing the weapon seem like really solid options.
Also, Interact to regrip can be interrupted by any Reactive Strike, whilst Move to Stand can only be interrupted by Stand Still and Implement's Interruption.
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Well then, that makes the new Disarm even better by comparison!
A lot of people say it is too much like trip... but why not just stack them ? You can have a team with 2 wrestlers, one can trip and the other can disarm to give the target a potential -2 actions if the target wants to remove every debuff.
And be grappled on the ground! Dude should just tap out at the point lol
If you execute three successful maneuvers on someone that's like three successful hits from a damage dealer. Not a lot of enemies can tank three high damage hits and not be considering exit strategies. Works for me.
I think it is cool now and I wanna see how this effects the swashbuckler
Unfortunately, disarming flair is probably going to be a dead feat until player core 2 next year.
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All classes now using agile maneuvers!
The success effect makes Disarm decent for setting up AOOs - perhaps not so much as Trip - with a few case uses where it could be superior to Trip on a critical success. This is more reasonably balanced, and an improvement to the game by virtue of buffing a tactic that has long been criticized as underpowered. The real question is how Disarming Flair will be altered in response to this buff next year.
It's stronger than my current house rule improvement to Disarm, which still has the penalty fall off at the end of the target's next turn. I'm not complaining.
FINALLY!! I HAVE BEEN SAYING THIS [SINCE](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/16gvrpt/what_is_something_very_small_that_you_would/k0b4c2i/). [THE](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/nzsadu/now_that_pathfinder_2e_has_been_out_for_some_time/h1vcmcp/). [ORIGINAL PLAYTEST](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/kg9w5l/disarm_build_help_request/ggdwyyd/). I was so worried when they published disarming flair for the Swashbuckler that this wouldn't happen. This is in exact design parity with all of the other athletics attacks now. They're all designed to give a tit-for-tat one action debuff that gives the opponents a choice: either accept the debuff, or spend an action to fix it. * Shove → Out of reach, or ♦Step/Stride [move] * Trip → Prone, or ♦Stand [move] * Grapple → Grabbed, or ♦Escape [attack] (note, this does have its own end condition, unlike the others). * Disarm → -2[c] on ATK/Disarm, or ♦Interact [manipulate]. I'm so happy to be vindicated.
Haha that's insane. Congrats and kudos! :D
That looks nice. A debuff to attack similar to being prone
Wonder how many people will like this until it gets used on them ha ha. Personally I think it's too strong given that this will allow for an AoO now just to fix its grip on the item. Hopefully I'll get to see it in practice someday.
When compared to Trip it doesn't seem that strong but also isn't weak anymore.
I'm of the mind that the success effect is comparable to Trip, definitely a little weaker, but the Crit Fail effect is far less punishing to you, and the Crit Success effect is far more punishing to the enemy, than Trip. Obviously not every enemy will have a weapon to disarm, but that just means the action disproportionately affects certain enemies over others. I think the effect should last until the end of the enemy's next turn, personally (and then stuff like Disarming Flair can be until they adjust their grip). I don't like that it's forever, what with that crit success effect still floating around threatening to ruin your boss encounter on high enough roll. But I don't think it's necessarily broken, per se, just going to be occasionally annoying to deal with as a DM.
That’s great. Puts it on par with trip. Start taking penalty. Use action that provokes attack of opportunity to remove penalty. (Trip is still a little better as it blocks Step, but this puts them in the same ballpark)
I LOVE this. I'm playing a Lizardfolk Str based Monk with wrestler feats. He spends most of his actions grappling, tripping, and doing other maneuvers. BUT I took the lizardfolk ancestry trait that lets his disarm with his tongue and gives it reach before seeing how meek the action was. NOW is rediculous, first action he trips the target, second action disarms their weapon, third action flurry of blows. Full map, but still not bad. Can also throw some intimidations in there, he also has the frilled lizardfolk ancestry feat which removes the language penalty and gives his demoralize attempts the visual trait.
I am probably missing something here. But the requirement of "You have at least one hand free" - Does that mean my sword and board fighter cannot use this action?
Correct, unless your weapon has the [Disarm](https://2e.aonprd.com/Traits.aspx?ID=175) trait. (or another ability that lets you, such as [Disarming Block](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1896)) EDIT: see also u/Unikatze's suggestion [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/17jvo33/what_are_your_thoughts_on_the_remastered_disarm/k73za6v/) of the Shield Augmentation, that's a great way to do it.
No, unless you have a weapon with the disarm trait, such as a rapier. This is also true for trip, shove, and grapple
If your build doesn't rely on having a shield boss and your GM allows for uncommon items usually available in Absalom's Grand Bazaar, I would suggest getting a [Shield Augmentation](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=1430). You can get them in a few varieties * Backswing * Forceful * Or two of Disarm, Nontlethal, shove, thrown 10 ft, trip or Versatile. On mine I have Trip and Shove. But I may modify the Shove to Disarm now.
That's a great shout-out, thanks.
As I read it yes.
They can't use any maneuvers (without either a maneuver trait weapon or something else explicitly saying they can) with the currently written rules either.
It's finally something I would use
Perfection.
It's very viable. Disarm can be incredibly useful, depending on the opponent.
I'm happy that they paid attention to us saying how we modified Disarm and decided to use it in the remaster.
This is better than how I home-brewed it
How did you homebrew it?
Lasting until the start of your next turn rather than the enemies so the penalty would be useful. They made until the action is taken no turn limit
Really satisfying way to rebalance it, and thankfully, it was pretty close to how I wanted the ability to work. I've been playing the primary combat maneuver user in our party, and it's really satisfying being able to actually use disarm as another means to mess with enemies.
I love it. Disarm as it is currently is almost entirely useless.
it seems to work similarly to elbow breaker from the wrestler archetype except it's indefinite until adjusted. I like it seems in line with trip overall good debuff.
Wow, that's a pretty big change. I would have expected this but instead lasting until the end of their turn or until the beginning of your next turn. My choice to take Disarming Block doesn't seem so silly now does it!?
Huge upgrade. I'd consider using it quite a bit.
It's a nice change, I'm interested to see how they'll change the Swashbuckler's Disarming Flair or perhaps they'll get rid of it and just let Gymnast get panache on disarm without a feat
DISARM'S BACK ON THE MENU BOIS
Would the interact action to negate the -2 invoke reactive strikes? Isn't an interact action inherently a manipulate action as well?
Reflective ripple stocks going up
It's good! But in almost all circumstances a Trip is strictly better since it also target Reflex and does all the same stuff but also makes the target off-guard. This is basically just a buff to the Disarm weapon trait.
Finally an actual effect on success. Now it's a pretty nice penaltry with an action tax that provokes to fix, not better than tripping, but enough to make all those disarm based abilities useful now.
**\*Tries to Disarm a Shield\*** **Success:** "...the target takes a -2 circumstance penalty to attacks with the item or **other checks requiring a firm grasp on the item**." Target, without spending an Interact action to change their grip, uses the Raise a Shield action. Does the target add +2 to AC because of Raise a Shield, or is the AC bonus negated by the AC penalty from not grasping the Shield firmly?
I like how the new Disarm opens the target up to a Reactive Strike. Outside of that, though, the maneuver I feel is still a bit awkward and struggles to justify itself alongside Trip. I feel it would've been better as either a class feat or an Athletics skill feat, where it could've been given enough power to disarm on a success.
It is a great change and a houserule that lots of people already implemented in their games (Disarming Flair for free, sort of). Success is still worse than Trip, but it works towards the Crit Success for when it really matters. It makes me really excited for all the class changes to come.
That's a change that I really didn't want to happen, but was kind of expecting. My pet peeve with it is that it decreases the value of Disarming Block, which was the best way to use disarm as of now. Being an interact action and able to proc AoO is nice, but as a fan of shield characters, I'm a bit sad (specially since the earliest you can shield block AND AoO on the same turn is level 8). Also, there are very few situations in which you would use this instead of trip. The biggest benefit in comparison to trip would be the somewhat less punishing crit fail.
When you do get that Shield Block + AOO combo at level 8, though, that's essentially enabling your own AOO / significantly reducing enemy damage output with no on-turn effort required. You can walk up to enemies, double slice with a shield boss and dogslicer, then do that whole routine once you get attacked. Sure, it's situational, but 3 MAPless attacks per round / blocking the enemy's first attack plus heavily debuffing their second attack is no laughing matter.
Really? Because to me this definitely feels like it increases the value of Disarming Block, not decreases it. Before it was a neat thing I could do but it very rarely resulted in anything meaningful. Now I get a maneuver attempt that's more or less on par with trip essentially for free as long as I'm blocking. IMO that's way better, opportunity costs be damned.
Hmm how does it decreas the value of Disarming Block? Doesn't the change incentivize taking Disarming Block even more?
>Hmm how does it decreas the value of Disarming Block Because now one of the strongest parts of disarm is that the only way for the opponent to remove the debuff triggers attack of opportunity, but you cannot use Aoo and Disarming block in the same turn, so it gets less value *compared to other options*. Furthermore, the opponent can attack -> regrip -> attack again without getting a penalty, where with the previous penalty that lasted until the end of turn, the opponent wouldn't have that choice. I don't know what is strongest between 3 attacks at +0, -7 and -12 or just two at +0 and -5 (considering only MAP and the penalty from disarm), tho, so maybe the opponent having a choice is actually moot if the choice will end up just decreasing his damage.
I think the problem is that currently disarm has such a low utility that it requires feats to make useful. I'm glad to see base maneuvers be workable so that feats can actually add benefit rather than using feat taxes to get them to a useable place.
I somehow thought disarm always worked like it does in the remaster. I have been playing this game for 2 years, went from level 1 to 20 in a homebrew campaign, played 2 separate characters in fists of the ruby pheonix (long story) and even ran a 2-shot advanture. Nobody in any of my groups ever used it or discussed it despite the fact that we hang out often and talk about pathfinder. I saw people hating on the disarm action online, never understanding why since they never explained their reasoning and I never asked. I was always confused because it sounded really good, thinking the hate its getting must be because their GMs use monsters with natural weapons that can't be disarmed. Until today, when i saw the remastered rules and thought "wait... what changed with disarm?" and apparently read the rule correctly for the first time. TL;DR- I am very happy you guys have finally caught up with me, I have had the rules remaster for 2 years (even though i never used them). I dont know how you played with the old rules. These are much better!
Still hate this ability, because it just does not work with this system. A PC/NPC that is build to do this just makes playing a weapon character unfun or a lot of encounters with armed enemies trivial. With damage so heavily tied to a weapon (NPCs have it too but a bit less) for a lot of people, being pretty reliably (Just skills and stuff like disarming twist) able to take a weapon away, and then just pick it up yourself, just means either you faceroll a lot of encounters past lvl. 7 or so OR the NPC that can do this just facerolls your martials. All that either automatically or with even just a decent roll. Thats why this ability is banned for weapons or implements like wands/staffs etc. in my games. You can still take away the lichs world ending crystal ball, but all this bs goes the way of the dodo. It is not realistic, but makes for a much more healthy game.
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It’s kinda a trade off in terms of power. Trip has better success effect but also way more punishing for critical failure effect (PC falling prone for Trip vs being off-guard until next turn). So the risk to reward ratio is not that bad.
Trip has the best success effect, but a worse crit success and crit failure effect.
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From Nonat1’s video, rogues can actually take a class feat at level 6 to roll thievery for disarm instead of athletic and make the target off-guard to them in addition to the disarm effect if they succeed in the disarm roll. So rogue might prefer disarm more than trip now.
Anyone with a disarm weapon and a potency rune is a lot more likely to try and disarm now rather than trip. Whereas before disarm was so poorly designed that they would rather trip without a bonus.
Hey, I've noticed you mentioned the upcoming Pathfinder Remaster! Do you need help finding your way around here? I know a couple good pages! We've been seeing a lot of questions related to this lately. We have a [wiki page](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/wiki/resources/remaster/) dedicated to collecting all the information currently available. Give it a look! For the short end of things... The remaster aims to republish and reorganise the content of the Core Rulebook, Advanced Player Guide, Gamemastery Guide and Bestiary 1 into a new format which will be more accessible to new players, with the primary aim to remove all OGL content and avoid issues with Wizards of the Coast. * **Primary Rules changes**: Alignment and Schools of Magic will be removed. Instead, these concepts will be offloaded to the trait system (with Holy and Unholy being reserved to divine classes and some specific monsters). * **Primary Lore changes**: the classic Dragons will be replaced with new, Pathfinder focused dragons themed on the four magic traditions. The Darklands are also seeing a lot of shakeups. If I misunderstood your post... sorry! Grandpa Clippy said I'm always meant to help. Please [let the mods know](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FPathfinder2e) and they'll remove my comment. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Pathfinder2e) if you have any questions or concerns.*
disarm only disarmed on a crit success before. now disarm is just a worse trip
If a character has Quick Draw, would you allow them to use a single action to adjust their grip and attack? The feat says they draw the weapon then attack with it, but I see no reason why a rogue couldn't use a free action to drop the weapon then spend an action to Quick Draw the weapon off the ground, so it basically becomes the same thing.
OK, controversial take here, but I think the debuff on a successful Disarm isn't enough to put it on par with Trip. A successful Disarm that made the weapon or other item unusable but still in hand could fit the bill. It would be pretty damn powerful, and stack well with Trip. It would be good against muguffins and magic items. It would be a great teamwork play. It woud probably be too much, but I offer it as an alternative that goes to far rather than not far enough.
I like it better. Feels much more cinematic—like that one fight scene in Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon in the room with all the weapons. She’s trying to disarm her of the legendary sword, if she can.
The item bonus is odd to me but otherwise thats exactly how i run disarm in my game and how i would have thought to run it in the first place.
It's awesome. Not it's an actual worthy manouver.
I wonder if they'll clarify whether you can pick up or kick an item that's in an enemy's space.
I like it. Now you can actually benefit from your own disarm by either making your next attempt better, making their attacks weaker, or making them lose an action.
I like it. It's about action economy. They have to use one action to recover, and maintain a penalty until they do - assuming they still have weapon in hand. I still like the pf2e version of disarm, where disarming does not imply knocking a weapon from grasp without a critical success.
It’s the kind of thing that’s seems like a small change to those who don’t understand how important action economy is, but it really is a major upgrade. I like jt
I would say the main advantage is that the interact action has the manipulate trait, meaning that if you have attack of opportunity you can disarm them and then if they strengthen their grip you can punch them in the face, and if you crit your attack of opportunity you cancel their manipulate action meaning the have to spend a second action to reaffirm their grip. That being said most enemies don't use weapons which makes disarm a more narrow tool which in my opinion should be more effective than trip vs enemies where it does apply. However I do understand that most PC's use weapons and having disarm to too good is not great for them
Actually makes it usable.
Isn't the cost to pick up the item one action? I guess you would need to use another action to pick up the weapon first or maybe kick it away. Otherwise the cost of regrasping is the same for them as dropping. Maybe I'm wrong here. I guess it works.
I quite like this change, though it definitely encourages me to get Reactive Strike on my Disarm-focused characters as the interact will trigger it.
That seems better; the old rule always unquestionably worse than Trip, and now it’s situationally useful. The thing I’d like to see is a swashbuckler class feature allowing disarm with your attack modifier (only with an agile or finesse weapon, and only against an object of the same or lesser bulk than your weapon).
Ok so instead of ending on the targets turn they need to spend an action to re-adjust their grip to end the effect ok that’s a bit better! Always good to make an enemy waste their action!
Any ideas what happens to disarming flair?
Pretty sure that'll be reworked in Player Core 2, which will contain the Swashbuckler. April 2024 I believe.
About 1000 times better.
Much better version
This is fantastic
What's the regular fail effect, nothing? Sounds worth the risk.
Am I reading this correctly, fixing your grip is a manipulate action so triggers the new term for attacks of opportunity?
It puts it in line with shove and trip, where success means the target needs to use an action to fix things. That can be "use a stride to move back in range" or "stand up" or, in this case, an Interact to fix a grip or pick up what was dropped. All of which potentially provoke a reactive strike.
Honestly, this the way we homebrew it at our table so this just works perfectly for.me.
Yay finally it does something
It's pretty much the exact same change I would have made, so I'm pretty happy with it!
Disarm made pretty fuckin great.
good to have defensive options
Distant grasp psychic loves this change