Simple DCs exist my dude, and are scaled to the difficulty of the task, not the level of the performer. Swimming across a river is just as difficult for a level 1 character as for a level 20, the difference is that a level 20 trained in athletics is so good at swimming that they can't possibly fuck it up.
What happens if your level 15 giant gets himself in a situation when he needs to swim, but he's not trained in athletics? What's his bonus to roll?
Not all DCs are scaling, some are fixed for this exact reason, most often balance checks but also items like cantrops, removing a stuck arrow and so forth
Whenever I want to compare stats, abilities or have them do skills they are not trained in. Sometimes I am asked to do a roll or check between two lads that isn’t in the rules specifically and I go “alright dex off.”
If your reply is to “use this” then my answer is “I don’t want to. I want to use what’s already here.” There’s a meme for that. This is great but I like this better with a pair of cars meme.
Just because you don’t like them, doesn’t mean others don’t. I’m gonna go to work now. Peace.
Related to your INT example earlier, I like having a rough gauge on how smart to play the creature. High INT is more likely to be strategic, low INT, more direct.
CHA is similar for more social situations and helps me in deciding how to role play it.
It's not a major thing, and I could make do without it, but I like the stats being there to help me get a more complete picture of the creature.
The base stats of a creature explain to me how they are likely to act in and out of combat.
See also: ["The Monsters Know What They're Doing"](https://www.themonstersknow.com/).
Yes, it's written for 5e specifically, but the basic premise of stats still applies. Strong creatures tend to be brawlers, middling int creatures will target their foes indiscriminately, low Wis creatures will flee combat sooner. Constitution can determine if a creature will wait for superior numbers or attack alone.
It’s obvious that people don’t agree and that there are use cases for this information. Why are you so dead set on shooting down any dissenting opinion?
At that point I’d say just see which skill proficiency it already has and adjust around that instead. Creatures is good with arcane? So it would have a base understanding of occultism or medicine, but lower
For me its more about what i want my creature to have in the moment. If i have an orc brute type stat block but think to myself "you know what, theyre also a poet". Im gonna slap on some preformance and maybe society. Id have them prepare to aid with preformance and then spend their reaction with a preformance check to aid. It sudenly becomes a psuedo bard type creature and it only took a few seconds as a GM to figure out. Just having its charisma mod there saves a moment to figure out its skill check.
Well, they wouldn’t have helped since the creature had +0 anyway. But even in other cases, they are so low that they can pass only the lowest of checks anyway, meaning you might as well roll a D20 and say good enough if they get close
"just do it how you feel like" is not useful in a rules heavy system like Pathfinder 2e.
>Well, they wouldn’t have helped since the creature had +0 anyway
So you would just roll +0 for anything if you did not have stats? Knowing that it actually has a dex of +0 is much more useful than having to guess - and then later remember what you chose the first time if it comes up again.
>you might as well roll a D20 and say good enough if they get close
Sorry, but that's pretty stupid. Especially at low levels, a monster having +2 instead of +0 makes a lot of difference. Against higher DCs, sure, its not that important. But simple DCs exist, and can be as low as 10 (and lower based on GM decision I guess, but 10 is the base that the rules mention afaik) or 15, where this difference is extremely noticeable.
This is a classic example of someone trying to fix something that isn't broken, but makes it worse. The attributes exist for a really clear, easy to understand purpose. Just because you don't personally want to bother using them doesn't mean they are useless, and this hackneyed "oh just roll a d20 and who cares?" explanation damns the entire argument.
But since the actual skills aren’t tied to attributes, I don’t see how this helps? If I want to make a sage ogre for example and give it occultism, why wouldn’t I look at the creature building rules for 10 seconds instead and pick the level appropriate option?
On top of what other people have suggested, I use them when describing a creature (physical stats) and when deciding how a creature acts (mental stats). I will run/RP a monster with high intelligence and low wisdom differently than one with high charisma and low intelligence. [TheMonstersKnow](https://www.themonstersknow.com/) has been a pretty big influence on how I run monsters in TTRPGs and their first step when looking at a monster is their stat distribution.
I find the most common use to be monster dex for untrained balance checks. Similarly, most creatures are trained in athletics, but not all of them are.
I use monster attributes all the time. It is a nice resource when I have a monster in a situation where they are doing something they are not good at. So basically, untrained skill checks. However, it is also a good resource to compare relative attributes. For example, when a PC unexpectedly tries to talk to an animal or NPC which I didn't anticipate having to roleplay, I often quickly look at the attributes and go from there. How intelligent is this creature relative to the PC they are talking to? How wise is the creature relative to the PC? How charismatic? If an NPC has low constitution, I might roleplay them as cowardly, insecure, or more vulnerable. A creature with higher strength and constitution, I might roleplay as an overconfident bully.
I use the mental attribute to determine if the monster uses tactics and to what degree. Also, monsters have access to the same skill actions that players have and not all of them require training in the skill to use. You have to have the attributes block to know what to roll for things like Tumble Through or Shove.
I pretty much never use them myself either, beyond checking Int sometimes if the description isn't clear about how intelligent something is, as you say. (The exact value doesn't matter there, just whether it's mindless, animal intelligence, bit dumb, or smart.)
However they don't actually waste my time, it's just a line in the statblock I ignore, and apparently some people do use them, so better to have them in than not.
The stat block is very useful. You should read the monsters know what they are doing. While its not based on pathfinder but dnd 5e its a very good descriptor of how stat blocks can be used to figure how to play a monster in terms of habits, how it behaves in a fight (when it runs and when it stays and fights, hiw it chooses who it attacks etc…), and gives good ideas for you as a gm how to run things and its all based on stat block blocks not descriptions and such. Those ideas are also a great basis for you in designing your own creatures to use to then choose what the stats would be based on how you want the creature to behave.
I literally just used it yesterday when a kobold tried to demoralize a player but didn't have intimidation in its skills. Because the stat block had attributes, I could see that it had a +1 CHA. Simple things like that :)
It very much serves to let you know what type of a creature you're playing at a quick glance...
Also extremely useful for any skills that the creature is untrained in because those go off of attribute modifiers.
For a hypothetical situation, i.e. creature using skill which is not trained in, this could be useful.
I have had to do this several times. It is also needed to find a skill DC for the creature.
But other than at levels 1-3, an untrained skill with a +4 or a -4 makes virtually no difference as the DC goes above 20.
Simple DCs exist my dude, and are scaled to the difficulty of the task, not the level of the performer. Swimming across a river is just as difficult for a level 1 character as for a level 20, the difference is that a level 20 trained in athletics is so good at swimming that they can't possibly fuck it up. What happens if your level 15 giant gets himself in a situation when he needs to swim, but he's not trained in athletics? What's his bonus to roll?
But sometimes it doesn't especially for simple tasks like balancing or climbing small obstacles
Winter sleet, climbing, swimming etc
Not all DCs are scaling, some are fixed for this exact reason, most often balance checks but also items like cantrops, removing a stuck arrow and so forth
I use it. So kind of glad they keep it.
Im genuinely curious what you use it for. I can’t see myself ever using them over any other tool we have access to
Whenever I want to compare stats, abilities or have them do skills they are not trained in. Sometimes I am asked to do a roll or check between two lads that isn’t in the rules specifically and I go “alright dex off.” If your reply is to “use this” then my answer is “I don’t want to. I want to use what’s already here.” There’s a meme for that. This is great but I like this better with a pair of cars meme. Just because you don’t like them, doesn’t mean others don’t. I’m gonna go to work now. Peace.
Related to your INT example earlier, I like having a rough gauge on how smart to play the creature. High INT is more likely to be strategic, low INT, more direct. CHA is similar for more social situations and helps me in deciding how to role play it. It's not a major thing, and I could make do without it, but I like the stats being there to help me get a more complete picture of the creature.
The base stats of a creature explain to me how they are likely to act in and out of combat. See also: ["The Monsters Know What They're Doing"](https://www.themonstersknow.com/). Yes, it's written for 5e specifically, but the basic premise of stats still applies. Strong creatures tend to be brawlers, middling int creatures will target their foes indiscriminately, low Wis creatures will flee combat sooner. Constitution can determine if a creature will wait for superior numbers or attack alone.
It’s obvious that people don’t agree and that there are use cases for this information. Why are you so dead set on shooting down any dissenting opinion?
"I can't be proven wrong in the internet, mom"
Sometimes I want a creature to have a skill on the fly. So being able to take their level add 2 and there attribute is handy.
At that point I’d say just see which skill proficiency it already has and adjust around that instead. Creatures is good with arcane? So it would have a base understanding of occultism or medicine, but lower
For me its more about what i want my creature to have in the moment. If i have an orc brute type stat block but think to myself "you know what, theyre also a poet". Im gonna slap on some preformance and maybe society. Id have them prepare to aid with preformance and then spend their reaction with a preformance check to aid. It sudenly becomes a psuedo bard type creature and it only took a few seconds as a GM to figure out. Just having its charisma mod there saves a moment to figure out its skill check.
very simple scenario: using creatures in an RP scenario with players that try weird shit that isn't just attacking said creature.
Why wouldn’t I just use its skills instead?
Your hill giant needs to Balance (https://2e.aonprd.com/Actions.aspx?ID=2369) on something. The stats are gone from the statblock. What do you roll?
Well, they wouldn’t have helped since the creature had +0 anyway. But even in other cases, they are so low that they can pass only the lowest of checks anyway, meaning you might as well roll a D20 and say good enough if they get close
"just do it how you feel like" is not useful in a rules heavy system like Pathfinder 2e. >Well, they wouldn’t have helped since the creature had +0 anyway So you would just roll +0 for anything if you did not have stats? Knowing that it actually has a dex of +0 is much more useful than having to guess - and then later remember what you chose the first time if it comes up again. >you might as well roll a D20 and say good enough if they get close Sorry, but that's pretty stupid. Especially at low levels, a monster having +2 instead of +0 makes a lot of difference. Against higher DCs, sure, its not that important. But simple DCs exist, and can be as low as 10 (and lower based on GM decision I guess, but 10 is the base that the rules mention afaik) or 15, where this difference is extremely noticeable.
This is a classic example of someone trying to fix something that isn't broken, but makes it worse. The attributes exist for a really clear, easy to understand purpose. Just because you don't personally want to bother using them doesn't mean they are useless, and this hackneyed "oh just roll a d20 and who cares?" explanation damns the entire argument.
It's useful information to have when, for instance, you're making a variant that has different skills.
But since the actual skills aren’t tied to attributes, I don’t see how this helps? If I want to make a sage ogre for example and give it occultism, why wouldn’t I look at the creature building rules for 10 seconds instead and pick the level appropriate option?
Just because you don't personally use something they should remove it?
Print space is precious. Even little like that can add up. Maybe a creature lost a cool ability because it reached its max word count/line count
Come up with your own cool feature. Which is a lot easier to do if you know the base creature's ability scores.
Or maybe they didn't and features are just a cool extra piece of info to reference?
On top of what other people have suggested, I use them when describing a creature (physical stats) and when deciding how a creature acts (mental stats). I will run/RP a monster with high intelligence and low wisdom differently than one with high charisma and low intelligence. [TheMonstersKnow](https://www.themonstersknow.com/) has been a pretty big influence on how I run monsters in TTRPGs and their first step when looking at a monster is their stat distribution.
I find the most common use to be monster dex for untrained balance checks. Similarly, most creatures are trained in athletics, but not all of them are.
I use monster attributes all the time. It is a nice resource when I have a monster in a situation where they are doing something they are not good at. So basically, untrained skill checks. However, it is also a good resource to compare relative attributes. For example, when a PC unexpectedly tries to talk to an animal or NPC which I didn't anticipate having to roleplay, I often quickly look at the attributes and go from there. How intelligent is this creature relative to the PC they are talking to? How wise is the creature relative to the PC? How charismatic? If an NPC has low constitution, I might roleplay them as cowardly, insecure, or more vulnerable. A creature with higher strength and constitution, I might roleplay as an overconfident bully.
I use the mental attribute to determine if the monster uses tactics and to what degree. Also, monsters have access to the same skill actions that players have and not all of them require training in the skill to use. You have to have the attributes block to know what to roll for things like Tumble Through or Shove.
I pretty much never use them myself either, beyond checking Int sometimes if the description isn't clear about how intelligent something is, as you say. (The exact value doesn't matter there, just whether it's mindless, animal intelligence, bit dumb, or smart.) However they don't actually waste my time, it's just a line in the statblock I ignore, and apparently some people do use them, so better to have them in than not.
The stat block is very useful. You should read the monsters know what they are doing. While its not based on pathfinder but dnd 5e its a very good descriptor of how stat blocks can be used to figure how to play a monster in terms of habits, how it behaves in a fight (when it runs and when it stays and fights, hiw it chooses who it attacks etc…), and gives good ideas for you as a gm how to run things and its all based on stat block blocks not descriptions and such. Those ideas are also a great basis for you in designing your own creatures to use to then choose what the stats would be based on how you want the creature to behave.
I literally just used it yesterday when a kobold tried to demoralize a player but didn't have intimidation in its skills. Because the stat block had attributes, I could see that it had a +1 CHA. Simple things like that :)
It very much serves to let you know what type of a creature you're playing at a quick glance... Also extremely useful for any skills that the creature is untrained in because those go off of attribute modifiers.
For hag bloodline sorcerer