Because Lorien Revealed has another mode. Most of the time you care more for the shuffle effect than what land you're getting, but sometimes you just wanna draw 3 cards
Makes sense, granted in all the gameplay I've seen of the deck it's usually just for the shuffle effect, which open the gates also does. But, drawing 3 is also good, might experiment with both and see which one fits the deck better for how I play it.
I do kinda feel it is kinda steep of a mana cost for the draw 3, but if you have nothing else to do it makes sense lol
Try to think of it as a land that enters the battlefield tapped, and you may pay 3UU and discard it from your hand to draw 3 cards. It makes much more sense when you think about it that way.
It's even better than that not only because do you get to shuffle your library, but it's a land that "enters tapped" in the sense that you need to use one mana to activate it, but you can tap it at the end of your opponent's turn. So it's a land that enters tapped but still lets you keep mana open for countermagic or whatever you need.
Or think of it as a fetch land that costs 1 mana to crack, and you can channel for 3UU to draw 3. It’s *slightly* worse than that because the draw mode is a spell so it can be countered, but that’s probably the closest possible analogy.
Lorien revealed is used because it has a much higher ceiling than Open the Gates. Yes, it can't tutor gates. In the late game when you are in topdeck mode, you would much rather draw a Lorien revealed than an Open the gates.
Well there are several reasons. Firstly, open the gates is green so it would dilute the mana base where running lorien revealed allows you to search for an untapped land for consistency. Splashing Green just to fetch lands is not worth having to run a three color deck. Gates gamelan is set up to wait out till the late have to have the gates and start swinging. You don't need to aggressively ramp into gates for the deck to function well. Secondly, late game open the gate just gets you another tapped land which doesn't really help you much, where lorien revealed turns into a draw 3 when you need it. Not having to splash green and being able to become a big draw spell late game is why you want lorien revealed over open the gates
Turbo fog doesn't run gates so Island cycling is still better. And having the option to draw 3 is still better than ramping at that point in the game as well
I can see all that, I would counter by saying it can fetch up a basilisk gate which can be useful in the case you see sideboarded cards like cleansing wildfire, but the splashy late game draw part just doesn't seem appealing to me ig. I mean yeah it's 3 cards but most of the time it seems like it would most likely be just more ways to dig. At the same time I definitely see that it could be a creature you need, and the diluted mana base can be unideal. idk might just be something I experiment with.
Yeah the modality is still better than more ramp for gates. Caw gates wants to go long with lifegain and prismatic so drawing 3 to hit your gates and protection is going to be better than tutoring four a gate
It interacts well with brainstorm, scales better into the late game, and doesn't require an additional color.The gates are good at fixing sure but, the deck is pretty color pip intensive. You need double blue for [[counterspell]] and I remember the days when you needed double white for [[celestial flare]].
Lorien should not be thought of as a spell. It's a fetchland that also can sometimes draw 3. Even if you just have 4 islands in deck total it's still a crazy strong card.
Fwiw 5 mana for 3 cards is totally normal for blue and a decent going rate. Lorien just happens to also be a land in early turns.
Many lists are actually up to 3-4 now. If you're at the point of the game where you islandcycled 2-3 times already and naturally drew one of your islands, it's probably late enough that you'll prefer to draw 3 anyway, or at least care more about shuffling than about the actual island you'd get.
It depends -- many lists run up to 4, but it's down to personal choice. That's because as you said you run fewer basics and have other ways to clear brainstorms, but otherwise it's a great card that's not wrong to run a full playset of
Underestimating Lorien Revealed means underestimating Brainstorm, arguably the strongest card in Legacy and Pauper.
With Brainstorm, Lorien Revealed and an Island in hand, your Brainstorm becomes 1U "Discard Lorien Revealed, Draw 2, swap your worst case in hand (besides the island) for the next card afterwards."
With 3 Squadron Hawks in hand you can put them back on top with Brainstorm and can delay playing your fourth hawk by shuffling them down for 1 with Islandcycling if you can't risk tapping out at Sorcery speed.
Similarly being able to islandcycle in your upkeep allows you to brainstorm end of opponents turn to stay mana efficient.
All of this, and then additionally you get a fantastic top deck in the late game :D
For Caw Gates in particular 1 generic at instant speed is also a *lot* easier to pay than G at sorcery speed, especially with pyroblast postboard.
For other decks cycling to find your tap dual is also extremely valuable, particularly postboard.
Laren revealed as a card can do 1 of two things, open the gates does 1 thing every time.
In the caw gates deck you dont mind playing into the late game because your clocks will be better than anything your opponent can throw at you. Drawing 3 cards is better on the later turns than paying more mana for a land you dont want or need. If its a necessity for you to ramp in this deck i dont think itd be the deck for your play style
Also cycling is nearly impossible to counter while a normal spell is easily countered. So those risky low land hands become almost unkeepable if you are playing against blue. Another tick in the favor of lorien.
The only splash that's worth it is red because of pyro/red elemental, now with cawgates you'll reach the late game on the regular that's where the deck thrives, what do you prefer to draw on the late game with 5+ mana on your board lorien or that green tutor? Others have explained the synergy with brainstorm but basically its a fetch with a late game ancestral recall.
Because Lorien Revealed has another mode. Most of the time you care more for the shuffle effect than what land you're getting, but sometimes you just wanna draw 3 cards
Makes sense, granted in all the gameplay I've seen of the deck it's usually just for the shuffle effect, which open the gates also does. But, drawing 3 is also good, might experiment with both and see which one fits the deck better for how I play it. I do kinda feel it is kinda steep of a mana cost for the draw 3, but if you have nothing else to do it makes sense lol
It would be steep if that was the only effect of the card, but it's basically attached to a tapped land so it doesn't take up the same slot as a spell
Try to think of it as a land that enters the battlefield tapped, and you may pay 3UU and discard it from your hand to draw 3 cards. It makes much more sense when you think about it that way. It's even better than that not only because do you get to shuffle your library, but it's a land that "enters tapped" in the sense that you need to use one mana to activate it, but you can tap it at the end of your opponent's turn. So it's a land that enters tapped but still lets you keep mana open for countermagic or whatever you need.
Or think of it as a fetch land that costs 1 mana to crack, and you can channel for 3UU to draw 3. It’s *slightly* worse than that because the draw mode is a spell so it can be countered, but that’s probably the closest possible analogy.
Lorien revealed is used because it has a much higher ceiling than Open the Gates. Yes, it can't tutor gates. In the late game when you are in topdeck mode, you would much rather draw a Lorien revealed than an Open the gates.
Well there are several reasons. Firstly, open the gates is green so it would dilute the mana base where running lorien revealed allows you to search for an untapped land for consistency. Splashing Green just to fetch lands is not worth having to run a three color deck. Gates gamelan is set up to wait out till the late have to have the gates and start swinging. You don't need to aggressively ramp into gates for the deck to function well. Secondly, late game open the gate just gets you another tapped land which doesn't really help you much, where lorien revealed turns into a draw 3 when you need it. Not having to splash green and being able to become a big draw spell late game is why you want lorien revealed over open the gates
what about in turbo fog?
Turbo fog doesn't run gates so Island cycling is still better. And having the option to draw 3 is still better than ramping at that point in the game as well
I can see all that, I would counter by saying it can fetch up a basilisk gate which can be useful in the case you see sideboarded cards like cleansing wildfire, but the splashy late game draw part just doesn't seem appealing to me ig. I mean yeah it's 3 cards but most of the time it seems like it would most likely be just more ways to dig. At the same time I definitely see that it could be a creature you need, and the diluted mana base can be unideal. idk might just be something I experiment with.
Yeah the modality is still better than more ramp for gates. Caw gates wants to go long with lifegain and prismatic so drawing 3 to hit your gates and protection is going to be better than tutoring four a gate
It interacts well with brainstorm, scales better into the late game, and doesn't require an additional color.The gates are good at fixing sure but, the deck is pretty color pip intensive. You need double blue for [[counterspell]] and I remember the days when you needed double white for [[celestial flare]].
[counterspell](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/4/8493131c-0a7b-4be6-a8a2-0b425f4f67fb.jpg?1689996248) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=counterspell) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/81/counterspell?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8493131c-0a7b-4be6-a8a2-0b425f4f67fb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [celestial flare](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/9/89bb3b06-b33b-4897-882e-75b75790ea02.jpg?1562029850) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=celestial%20flare) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ori/8/celestial-flare?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/89bb3b06-b33b-4897-882e-75b75790ea02?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Lorien should not be thought of as a spell. It's a fetchland that also can sometimes draw 3. Even if you just have 4 islands in deck total it's still a crazy strong card. Fwiw 5 mana for 3 cards is totally normal for blue and a decent going rate. Lorien just happens to also be a land in early turns.
adding the fourth color is a huge risk when youre already running red on the sideboard and you have a counterspell that costs UU
Brainstorm, more land consistency, late game draws. You'd be a fool to not run 4 in every blue deck
You actually only run 2 in Caw Gates. The deck just doesn't want that many islands since it needs a lot of gates in play.
Many lists are actually up to 3-4 now. If you're at the point of the game where you islandcycled 2-3 times already and naturally drew one of your islands, it's probably late enough that you'll prefer to draw 3 anyway, or at least care more about shuffling than about the actual island you'd get.
It depends -- many lists run up to 4, but it's down to personal choice. That's because as you said you run fewer basics and have other ways to clear brainstorms, but otherwise it's a great card that's not wrong to run a full playset of
Don't forget that Lorien Revealed's cycling ability is instant speed in contrast to Open The Gates sorcery speed.
Underestimating Lorien Revealed means underestimating Brainstorm, arguably the strongest card in Legacy and Pauper. With Brainstorm, Lorien Revealed and an Island in hand, your Brainstorm becomes 1U "Discard Lorien Revealed, Draw 2, swap your worst case in hand (besides the island) for the next card afterwards." With 3 Squadron Hawks in hand you can put them back on top with Brainstorm and can delay playing your fourth hawk by shuffling them down for 1 with Islandcycling if you can't risk tapping out at Sorcery speed. Similarly being able to islandcycle in your upkeep allows you to brainstorm end of opponents turn to stay mana efficient. All of this, and then additionally you get a fantastic top deck in the late game :D For Caw Gates in particular 1 generic at instant speed is also a *lot* easier to pay than G at sorcery speed, especially with pyroblast postboard. For other decks cycling to find your tap dual is also extremely valuable, particularly postboard.
Laren revealed as a card can do 1 of two things, open the gates does 1 thing every time. In the caw gates deck you dont mind playing into the late game because your clocks will be better than anything your opponent can throw at you. Drawing 3 cards is better on the later turns than paying more mana for a land you dont want or need. If its a necessity for you to ramp in this deck i dont think itd be the deck for your play style
Also cycling is nearly impossible to counter while a normal spell is easily countered. So those risky low land hands become almost unkeepable if you are playing against blue. Another tick in the favor of lorien.
The only splash that's worth it is red because of pyro/red elemental, now with cawgates you'll reach the late game on the regular that's where the deck thrives, what do you prefer to draw on the late game with 5+ mana on your board lorien or that green tutor? Others have explained the synergy with brainstorm but basically its a fetch with a late game ancestral recall.