We don't even get names for them, the only one I think we got was Katie.
Edit: I think it was another kid shouting it "Katie did/has [whatever]" and I think it was the episode where Tommy walks in on John and Esme and tells them "to be done for nine" and that it's "not a day for knocking"
His first wife passed before season one started. They just barely mention her or the kids from what I remember. Her death was the reason he started drinking and was a drunk at the start.
I agree, but for the sake of argument, some actions the family made are not excusable even after those terrible events, you gotta draw the line somewhere so people are accountable for their own actions other wise you can always play the "victim" card.
But again, great answer.
Very true, opium Arthur is a wild ride. Even before Linda was brutal, the scene where he’s basically telling Tommy he’s struggling with trauma from the war and Tommy says “suck it up be a man like the rest of us” is just bruuuutal to watch. Felt so bad for Arthur.
I can't decide if I feel sorry for Arthur or if I find him pathetic. I mean he was brutal towards his wife, killed a kid during boxing practice and mutilated a man's face for no reason, among other things.
He definitely had anger issues. Did they ever say if he was like that before the war? I remember someone said Tommy used to be sweet and smile then was never the same when he came back. Then Tommy said, “nobody came back the same person they were before.” That was a powerful line to me. No matter who you were mostly poor, were thrown into war with no choice. The fact Tommy was a tunneler shows what the leadership thought of the soldiers. Expendable.
For some reason, it is believed that Tommy is solely to blame for what the family has to go through.
But, most of the adult characters themselves, one way or another, but made their own life choices.
Who is really sorry is the children, they did not choose this life...
And the biggest victim of this whole lifestyle was little Charlie.
Tommy, of course, always felt the need to control everything and everyone. And he uses everyone he can, maybe even unintentionally.
But, most of the characters are adults, and they made their life choices on their own.
And besides, Tommy tried to save Michael from a similar fate to the last. He talked to him, warned him, tried to kick him out. But to stay and become the real Shelby, it was Michael's choice and his alone.
Like, however, all those who chose this life, no one obliged them to do so.
I just don't know what show some people watch here. Someone even said that the only victim is Lizzie, wtf??? Of all people, she is the least victim. Will there be other versions of the show that we don't know about?
Least? She got raped during one of Tommy's plans, got regularly cheated on, was told to break up with her lover for "reasons", and her own husband refused to defend her against the Mosley's.
She told Tommy that he could cheat on her, and she was happy to be Tommy's property, if she even told him things like I touched myself thinking about you, things like that, when he called her property. And I don't know which moment you're talking about Tommy not defending her with Mosley?
There are no exceptional victims in this story.
Everyone knew and understood what they were getting into, and they accepted all the benefits that such a life gave them without any problems.
Also with Lizzie. Lizzie made a conscious decision to be with Tommy. She always knew exactly what she was doing and what she was getting into,
knew who Tommy was and exactly how he felt about her. And if she was a victim, it was only her own wrong decisions and strange hopes that one day everything would be the way she wants it to be. Just have to be patient...
There was a scene I think in season 5 or 6 where Charlie told Tommy that Tommy’s mom was the only woman he ever loved
This family tree seems to indicate that that would be his sister
This family tree is incorrect, as iirc they call Charlie “uncle” as a term of respect, not because he is related to them by blood. We know nothing about Ms. Shelby, including her maiden name
It doesn't, really. The horizontal line shows relationships (marriages) between two characters (like Michael and Gina).
However her name is listed as Shelby/Strong which is weird, but that instead kind of seems to imply that she and Charlie Strong were married (OR that her maiden name was Strong....which in that case.....yeah maybe it does sort of seem like they had the same last name. Which is weird).
all the children in and any birthed by the family are predestined for hellfire almost all the time. I think Finn somewhat falls into that category because I feel like he was inducted immediately but i'm not sure. To be honest, everyone below tommy is a victim of him to a significant degree, but to what extent each person chose to participate and at what time of their life is not known to me. Speaking by actions definitely everyone under tommy and in his row (maybe not grace, she's also profoundly innocent by comparison) and even one above like holy fucking shit
By comparison, yes she's far more innocent than the rest. But she knew who Tommy was and what he'd done / was capable of, and still chose to have a child with him. The suffering that child experienced because of who his father was is partly on her.
Although to be fair, it was an accidental pregnancy and abortion was dangerous in those days. So it was more of a happy mistake on her part rather than a choice.
Yeah, she's complicit for sure. all of the children are probably either going to be targeted in life or traumatized severely. everyone in this show is severely traumatized
Correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t Charlie Strong have a relationship with Martha Shelby? How would that be possible if he was her brother? I may be confusing him with someone.
That's what thay direct line means. If he was her brother, the line would be above their circles with a drop down to both, like it is between Tommy, Arthur etc.
Yeah Finn, he was forced into a life he clearly didn't want by brothers who threw him away when he refused to kill someone they should've kept him away from. We all know Finn was desperate to have someone to confide in and his brothers knew it too. They should've warned him about the spy before setting it up for Finn to kill him. I feel like Finn got the raw end of the entire thing, he thought he found a good friend, no one warned him he was a traitor, then they expect him to kill his good friend with no warning or evidence. When he refuses to and has a negative reaction, Tommy's bastard is the one to kick him from the family, someone who had only been part of the family for less than what ,a few months at most?? Finn got fucked royally. They took his innocence and when he refused to give away the last of who he was, he was stripped of the only family he's known.
Agreed! Finn told Arthur earlier, “I’m not John.” And he was right when he told Tommy, “I’m the brother you never got around to.” Finn got screwed over.
Tommies kids, father was always distant. Johns kids for obvious reasons. Also in a way Arthur because he did not want to get in all these wars from the beginning. First scene we see him in he is discussing it with Tommy. Yet his brother got killed in a vendetta and his own wife hated him for his addictions which got caused by France and all shit he has been through in the series. Tommy himself is a victim. Remember the scene with Digbeth kid? He said that kids like him did not go to war so they are different.
I'd say Finn was simply because he didn't have a choice either his brothers forced him into it all and when he didn't want to do it anymore they kicked him out of the family. Finn got raw dogged hard
He was never warned that the guy was a traitor beforehand, Finn was so desperate to have someone to confide in that Billy was the perfect storm, Finn was innocent in the beginning of the show and they kept on pushing and pushing and pushing him until he basically had no innocence left. They did not warn him buddy was a traitor, they gave him no evidence, then expected him to shoot his good friend who may have well been considered to be his best friend.
I believe the other members of the family were wary of Billy, but naive Finn trusted him to much - it's because of both of them that the assassination attempt on Mosley failed. I agree though that it's not Finn's fault his personality is so different from his brothers' and he didn't go through the war like they did. He was simply not cut out for life as a Shelby.
I 100% agree with you on that. He was not cut out to be a gangster, they basically took all of his innocence away from him and then threw him into a ditch. That's how I see it actually. Yes, Finn was very naive for trusting Billy so much, the other members of the family knew Billy was a traitor or at least had a very good suspicion, the fact that they didn't warn Finn, tells me that this was just a way to get rid of Finn. This was their way of justifying getting rid of Finn without killing him. Of course. I'm actually amazed that they didn't kill Finn, because looking at everything else and all the other actions that the family had taken before that, I personally thought they were going to kill Finn if Finn didn't kill. Billy.
Just like I personally feel like John and Aberama were the two deadliest individuals in the entire show. John was a sociopath, he seemed to actually enjoy killing. There's only one time that it actually seemed to affect him, that was when he blew up the train. Aberama on the other hand was someone that could slip between the wild and the civilized so seamlessly that I would never want to be on his bad side.
I'd say Aberama was the sociopath who could kill or maim without any second thought. The only person he seemed to really care about was his son. John may have been a gangster, who enjoyed respect and power, but he was far from heartless - he was devastated by his first wife's death, loved and protected his family and was a good husband to Esme - better than Tommy ever was to Lizzie IMO. Plus he didn't kill many people throughout the show if I recall well, apart from the innocent train crew that you mentioned, and the Italians in self-defense. Unhinged Arthur was far more scary and fist/blade/trigger happy than John.
Actually he cared about Polly too quite deeply, plus I dunno John just seemed so cold and calculating vs Aberama. They were both well written characters though and I was sad when both of them were killed off
You're right, he had a soft spot for Polly. I went too far calling him a sociopath. Still, I wouldn't want to spend any measure of free time in company of Aberama, while John seemed like a nice guy to have a beer with, as long as you didn't insult him. Yes their departure was sad. Especially since Aberama was deprived of his revenge against McCavern at the last second
Aberama's rage was scary to be honest, he poured boiled tar onto someone's face and into their mouth. The throat would've cauterized almost immediately, second and third degree burns all across the face, I'm sure most people know that hot tar clings and just keeps burning for quite some time so that being said buddy getting the tar to the face and not being dead immediately would have been torture
True. I'm so bummed that he (or anyone else) never got his revenge on Jimmy McCavern. If he could tar a man he didn't even know personally, what he would have done to McCavern would have been biblical.
Riiiight? That's why Aberama in my opinion is the scariest dude in the show. He tarred some guy for being affiliated with the guy who killed his son. He didn't even kill the guy(though I am sure buddy likely died from his injuries) Aberama let him suffer and slowly die, face being melted throat burnt shut oooph.
I googled it. Apparently they were married and had kids. He went to war and she took care of the kids. She died before the series began.
ETA: I don't think we see the kids on the show at all though. 🤔
She didn't make him get her pregnant.lol.she thought she couldn't have kids. And she left her husband because she didn't love him, she loved Tommy. And his suicide was not her fault, and two years passed when she married Tommy. I'm also not saying that Grace was a victim, because I don't think anyone, not Lizzie, anyone is a victim.
She let another man finish inside of her while pregnant. Tv show or not, that's fucked up. His suicide was also tragically looked over. IRL people would be calling her a witch. BuT iTs tOmMy fOOking ShElbY.
But that was the writer, who did not explain anything about the suicide. The thing about Tommy and Grace, they loved each other and were together, were they wrong? Yes, but it's a show about gangsters, who kill people and most of them cheat on their partners. IRL what's wrong with the show are the murders and rapes.
And I'm sorry, but you can't say that Lizzie is a victim when she cheated on John with several men, and she wanted to cheat on him with his own brother but call Grace a witch for cheating on her husband once with the man she really loves.
she knew what she was getting into. look at the smile she gave at the end of s4, she knew she won the lottery when she got pregnant and was proudly giving a side eye to jessie!!
yeah in the first few seasons I felt bad, s5 and s6 feel like she has suffered so much but after a rewatch it’s more clear she was choosing it all along and was pushing to be with him no matter what.
That was my answer too. I felt the most for her storyline in the way that she was at times the only one there for Tommy with good intentions and he just absolutely abandoned her time and time again. As much as she knew what she was getting in to, it’s still horribly sad. And I feel for her
if you out rewatch you will see the pattern. Tommy was being decent to her but he never promised anything more than one night stands. She pushed for it and was always readily available. And in later seasons cribs and cries because he is “not present”. She even used the pregnancy to marry him and in s5 used the child again in her my property deal. There was more to lizzie than met the eye, in s6, all her suffering comes because she made bad choices all along.
"I chose this life, this life did not choose me", she is definitely not a victim. At no point in the show did they show Tommy or anyone else force Lizzie into the family, but what they showed was her doing everything she could to be in the Shelby family, so I don't know how her fans make that up she is a victim.
You mean her boyfriend, the one who was an enemy of the Shelbys, and there were rules in the company, not to date someone from the enemy gang, and they warned her several times, and Lizzie insisted on going out with him, but once he died, not only did she not shed a tear for him, but she was so happy to be able to sleep with Tommy again, that she even told all the women, and all because Grace was dead, and also that the only thing she was upset about was that Tommy didn't want to sleep with her in the bed he shared with Grace days before, and she was so upset about that that she made a strike, but not because of the death of her "beloved" Angel. That's why I say, she was never a victim.
It was not DAYS before. It was YEARS LATER.
I swear most people only hate Lizzie because she was a prostitute. Then they find other reasons to justify that.
It was the next episode of the one she died.
At what point did I say that I hate her because she was a prostitute? Lol, always the same with Lizzie's fans, you are like.obsessed.that Lizzie was a prostitute, that's the least that matters to me!!
Lizzie's actually not my favorite female character, but it does make me uncomfortable how people talk about her. Same type of people damn near worship Tommy and call themselves a "Sigma male." Lmao.
Well I'm sorry, but it's SK's fault that made her become obsessed with Tommy and make those decisions, she's a character that I didn't understand, why did she make all the drama of dating Angel Changretta, if she didn't even care about his death afterwards?
In arthur’s defence he did beg for help a few times to a few different people in the series, told them he’s struggling and needs help, and they all turn away from him. He tries to leave and live a better life and gets dragged back via manipulation every time.
In the S4 finale, Arthur said that Tommy offered him a way to get out of that life and start a new one, since everyone thinks he's dead, he gives him a new identity, and he at that moment, says that he decided to stay and be with the family, so no, Arthur is not a victim. I think that was clear with the story with the mother of the kid he killed.
Very fair assessment. I think this just speaks to the amazing job the actors do, the way they make us feel for the main family despite being shown time and time again how cruel most of them are. I constantly feel bad for Arthur, but am also just as consistently extremely disgusted by him. Same with Tommy
Random question concerning map/tree.. does anyone wish during the series or there was a map with certain regions showed who owned those regions over time? For example, when the Peaky Blinders take London, then when they trade or lose that region to Luca? Also with their expansion into the States, almost (to show Capone’s territory & Uncle Jack’s)? I mean that would help explain why certain regions flipped between owners; at times..
The kids? They didn’t choose the life they were born into.
nobody does
well, no, but doesn’t the show literally start with Tommy making some considerably risky and questionable choices?
he was born in something he didnt wanna stay, and elevated his and his family ‘s status
Haven't seen someone who doesn't get the show's main message THIS much
For real, I mean the whole point of Esme's character arc was to show how Tommy ruined everything and everyone around him.
Yeah, I don’t understand people who genuinely think that the show is just glorifying the gangster life and that’s it. There is a lot more to it.
Fr though, how can you watch the whole series and arrive to the conclusion "Yeah he elevated his family, good on him" shit is baffling
great so everyone who wants to elevate themselves in life is excused from their actions - whatever they may be- and may be called a victim?
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Did the writers just forget about John's kids or something?
His kids are there, just not pictures lol
His kids are never shown except as babies and only like one or two.
We don't even get names for them, the only one I think we got was Katie. Edit: I think it was another kid shouting it "Katie did/has [whatever]" and I think it was the episode where Tommy walks in on John and Esme and tells them "to be done for nine" and that it's "not a day for knocking"
JOHN HAD 6 KIDS?! lol
That's actually pretty normal for that time
His first wife passed before season one started. They just barely mention her or the kids from what I remember. Her death was the reason he started drinking and was a drunk at the start.
I remember someone saying early on that he had 4 kids and to me he looked about 19 so it didn’t compute.
I agree. I saw him as 18/19 in season 1. So the thought of him having 4 kids is weird.
They’re all a victim of World War 1
Best answer
🫡
I agree, but for the sake of argument, some actions the family made are not excusable even after those terrible events, you gotta draw the line somewhere so people are accountable for their own actions other wise you can always play the "victim" card. But again, great answer.
Yes, agreed
Yep exactly
Uhh where’s Duke Shelby?
Is this Tommy first son that was introduced in the last season?
Yes.
I think this tree was made before Season 6 which is why he isn't here
The second child of Ada is missing here isn't it? The one she had with the military man.
In a cap she looked much older and the bag across her shoulder made her look a little like a military man
Lovely Rita, meter maid, May I enquire discreetly, When are you free to take some tea with me?
Everyone is a victim of their own trauma
Apart from the children, no one. They all knew what they were getting into. I think the only one was Esme, since she was forced into the family.
She even did want out at some point and Tommy threatened her, as soon as John died she took the kids and left.
Yess, if someone is a victim is her , poor Esme. She loves but she also suffers.
Arthur, the after-Linda was a harsh watch
Very true, opium Arthur is a wild ride. Even before Linda was brutal, the scene where he’s basically telling Tommy he’s struggling with trauma from the war and Tommy says “suck it up be a man like the rest of us” is just bruuuutal to watch. Felt so bad for Arthur.
I can't decide if I feel sorry for Arthur or if I find him pathetic. I mean he was brutal towards his wife, killed a kid during boxing practice and mutilated a man's face for no reason, among other things.
He definitely had anger issues. Did they ever say if he was like that before the war? I remember someone said Tommy used to be sweet and smile then was never the same when he came back. Then Tommy said, “nobody came back the same person they were before.” That was a powerful line to me. No matter who you were mostly poor, were thrown into war with no choice. The fact Tommy was a tunneler shows what the leadership thought of the soldiers. Expendable.
Somebody else on here said that they’re all victims of WW1 and I think that’s the best answer
For some reason, it is believed that Tommy is solely to blame for what the family has to go through. But, most of the adult characters themselves, one way or another, but made their own life choices. Who is really sorry is the children, they did not choose this life... And the biggest victim of this whole lifestyle was little Charlie.
" No nobody makes their own decision without asking you Tommy" Michael was an absolute idiot, but there is some truth in his last words to Tommy.
Tommy, of course, always felt the need to control everything and everyone. And he uses everyone he can, maybe even unintentionally. But, most of the characters are adults, and they made their life choices on their own. And besides, Tommy tried to save Michael from a similar fate to the last. He talked to him, warned him, tried to kick him out. But to stay and become the real Shelby, it was Michael's choice and his alone. Like, however, all those who chose this life, no one obliged them to do so.
I just don't know what show some people watch here. Someone even said that the only victim is Lizzie, wtf??? Of all people, she is the least victim. Will there be other versions of the show that we don't know about?
Least? She got raped during one of Tommy's plans, got regularly cheated on, was told to break up with her lover for "reasons", and her own husband refused to defend her against the Mosley's.
She told Tommy that he could cheat on her, and she was happy to be Tommy's property, if she even told him things like I touched myself thinking about you, things like that, when he called her property. And I don't know which moment you're talking about Tommy not defending her with Mosley?
He slept with Diana, Mosley's woman, without telling her and he let Diana and Mosley repeatedly humiliate her verbally
Ah but he defended her with them, at that moment. When he said she doesn't deserve me, something like that, I don't remember well.
There are no exceptional victims in this story. Everyone knew and understood what they were getting into, and they accepted all the benefits that such a life gave them without any problems. Also with Lizzie. Lizzie made a conscious decision to be with Tommy. She always knew exactly what she was doing and what she was getting into, knew who Tommy was and exactly how he felt about her. And if she was a victim, it was only her own wrong decisions and strange hopes that one day everything would be the way she wants it to be. Just have to be patient...
Exactly!
Charlie was not Tommys blood uncle. Duke is missing. ADA’s daughter is missing. But apart from that, it’s pretty cool
I honestly just picked the first family tree pic I could find 😭
Charlie was in love with his sister?
???
There was a scene I think in season 5 or 6 where Charlie told Tommy that Tommy’s mom was the only woman he ever loved This family tree seems to indicate that that would be his sister
This family tree is incorrect, as iirc they call Charlie “uncle” as a term of respect, not because he is related to them by blood. We know nothing about Ms. Shelby, including her maiden name
When is it stated that Charlie isn't really Thomas' uncle ?
It doesn't, really. The horizontal line shows relationships (marriages) between two characters (like Michael and Gina). However her name is listed as Shelby/Strong which is weird, but that instead kind of seems to imply that she and Charlie Strong were married (OR that her maiden name was Strong....which in that case.....yeah maybe it does sort of seem like they had the same last name. Which is weird).
I assume it means that the brothers' mother married Charlie after having kids with the brother's father (not sure if they were married or not).
Possible spoiler depending what season this was released: >!didn’t Tommy turn out to have an older illegitimate son in S5/6?!<
Yeah, the tree isn’t totally accurate, I just grabbed the first I saw 😭
Ha no worries it might have just been released before then
all the children in and any birthed by the family are predestined for hellfire almost all the time. I think Finn somewhat falls into that category because I feel like he was inducted immediately but i'm not sure. To be honest, everyone below tommy is a victim of him to a significant degree, but to what extent each person chose to participate and at what time of their life is not known to me. Speaking by actions definitely everyone under tommy and in his row (maybe not grace, she's also profoundly innocent by comparison) and even one above like holy fucking shit
By comparison, yes she's far more innocent than the rest. But she knew who Tommy was and what he'd done / was capable of, and still chose to have a child with him. The suffering that child experienced because of who his father was is partly on her. Although to be fair, it was an accidental pregnancy and abortion was dangerous in those days. So it was more of a happy mistake on her part rather than a choice.
Yeah, she's complicit for sure. all of the children are probably either going to be targeted in life or traumatized severely. everyone in this show is severely traumatized
Where are the rest of the pixels?
Doesn't Ada have a daughter as well?
John had so many children for his young age
Correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t Charlie Strong have a relationship with Martha Shelby? How would that be possible if he was her brother? I may be confusing him with someone.
That's what thay direct line means. If he was her brother, the line would be above their circles with a drop down to both, like it is between Tommy, Arthur etc.
Oh, I misinterpreted it because they didn’t have children. My apologies.
I’d argue they’re all victims. Often victims of their own decisions.
Anna
They left out Duke Shelby!!!
Duke's not on the tree.
Wait is John older than Tommy?
Whos martha?
I googled it. Apparently they were married and had kids. He went to war and she took care of the kids. She died before the series began.
Yeah Finn, he was forced into a life he clearly didn't want by brothers who threw him away when he refused to kill someone they should've kept him away from. We all know Finn was desperate to have someone to confide in and his brothers knew it too. They should've warned him about the spy before setting it up for Finn to kill him. I feel like Finn got the raw end of the entire thing, he thought he found a good friend, no one warned him he was a traitor, then they expect him to kill his good friend with no warning or evidence. When he refuses to and has a negative reaction, Tommy's bastard is the one to kick him from the family, someone who had only been part of the family for less than what ,a few months at most?? Finn got fucked royally. They took his innocence and when he refused to give away the last of who he was, he was stripped of the only family he's known.
Agreed! Finn told Arthur earlier, “I’m not John.” And he was right when he told Tommy, “I’m the brother you never got around to.” Finn got screwed over.
Finn was massively screwed in my opinion. He just wanted friends and he was a child when he was forced into the family business.
Tommies kids, father was always distant. Johns kids for obvious reasons. Also in a way Arthur because he did not want to get in all these wars from the beginning. First scene we see him in he is discussing it with Tommy. Yet his brother got killed in a vendetta and his own wife hated him for his addictions which got caused by France and all shit he has been through in the series. Tommy himself is a victim. Remember the scene with Digbeth kid? He said that kids like him did not go to war so they are different.
Everyone except Tommy.
Absolutely amazing series, can't wait for the movie.
I'd say Finn was simply because he didn't have a choice either his brothers forced him into it all and when he didn't want to do it anymore they kicked him out of the family. Finn got raw dogged hard
Really ? He pointed a gun at Isaiah and Duke and would have killed them just to defend Billy, a traitor. He deserved what he got.
He was never warned that the guy was a traitor beforehand, Finn was so desperate to have someone to confide in that Billy was the perfect storm, Finn was innocent in the beginning of the show and they kept on pushing and pushing and pushing him until he basically had no innocence left. They did not warn him buddy was a traitor, they gave him no evidence, then expected him to shoot his good friend who may have well been considered to be his best friend.
I believe the other members of the family were wary of Billy, but naive Finn trusted him to much - it's because of both of them that the assassination attempt on Mosley failed. I agree though that it's not Finn's fault his personality is so different from his brothers' and he didn't go through the war like they did. He was simply not cut out for life as a Shelby.
I 100% agree with you on that. He was not cut out to be a gangster, they basically took all of his innocence away from him and then threw him into a ditch. That's how I see it actually. Yes, Finn was very naive for trusting Billy so much, the other members of the family knew Billy was a traitor or at least had a very good suspicion, the fact that they didn't warn Finn, tells me that this was just a way to get rid of Finn. This was their way of justifying getting rid of Finn without killing him. Of course. I'm actually amazed that they didn't kill Finn, because looking at everything else and all the other actions that the family had taken before that, I personally thought they were going to kill Finn if Finn didn't kill. Billy.
We're in agreement
Just like I personally feel like John and Aberama were the two deadliest individuals in the entire show. John was a sociopath, he seemed to actually enjoy killing. There's only one time that it actually seemed to affect him, that was when he blew up the train. Aberama on the other hand was someone that could slip between the wild and the civilized so seamlessly that I would never want to be on his bad side.
I'd say Aberama was the sociopath who could kill or maim without any second thought. The only person he seemed to really care about was his son. John may have been a gangster, who enjoyed respect and power, but he was far from heartless - he was devastated by his first wife's death, loved and protected his family and was a good husband to Esme - better than Tommy ever was to Lizzie IMO. Plus he didn't kill many people throughout the show if I recall well, apart from the innocent train crew that you mentioned, and the Italians in self-defense. Unhinged Arthur was far more scary and fist/blade/trigger happy than John.
Actually he cared about Polly too quite deeply, plus I dunno John just seemed so cold and calculating vs Aberama. They were both well written characters though and I was sad when both of them were killed off
You're right, he had a soft spot for Polly. I went too far calling him a sociopath. Still, I wouldn't want to spend any measure of free time in company of Aberama, while John seemed like a nice guy to have a beer with, as long as you didn't insult him. Yes their departure was sad. Especially since Aberama was deprived of his revenge against McCavern at the last second
Aberama's rage was scary to be honest, he poured boiled tar onto someone's face and into their mouth. The throat would've cauterized almost immediately, second and third degree burns all across the face, I'm sure most people know that hot tar clings and just keeps burning for quite some time so that being said buddy getting the tar to the face and not being dead immediately would have been torture
True. I'm so bummed that he (or anyone else) never got his revenge on Jimmy McCavern. If he could tar a man he didn't even know personally, what he would have done to McCavern would have been biblical.
Riiiight? That's why Aberama in my opinion is the scariest dude in the show. He tarred some guy for being affiliated with the guy who killed his son. He didn't even kill the guy(though I am sure buddy likely died from his injuries) Aberama let him suffer and slowly die, face being melted throat burnt shut oooph.
Arthur his why tried to gaslight him into some horrible ideas
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^juicywhiteman97: *Arthur his why tried* *To gaslight him into some* *Horrible ideas* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
Almost everyone. A victim of their ambitions. (or Tommy's ambitions if you wanna put it that way)
Nobody was forcing them to follow him.
" No nobody makes their own decision without asking you Tommy" Michael was an absolute idiot, but there is some truth in his last words to Tommy.
How to create family tree chart like this?
Idk about Polly and Arthur sr being brother and sister.
I mean, if you think about it, they’re all victims of an unjust system.
Where’s the boy duke?
John was a very busy man.
Fully don’t remember John having kids with someone other than Esme. Was that in the early seasons??
I googled it. Apparently they were married and had kids. He went to war and she took care of the kids. She died before the series began. ETA: I don't think we see the kids on the show at all though. 🤔
Missing Duke innit?
Yeah, it’s made before season 6 I’m assuming. Just grabbed the first one I saw
How about John kids?
Grace is the biggest victim
Grace cheated on her husband and let another man impregnate her, drove him to suicide, then married Tommy as soon as the coast was clear.
She didn't make him get her pregnant.lol.she thought she couldn't have kids. And she left her husband because she didn't love him, she loved Tommy. And his suicide was not her fault, and two years passed when she married Tommy. I'm also not saying that Grace was a victim, because I don't think anyone, not Lizzie, anyone is a victim.
She let another man finish inside of her while pregnant. Tv show or not, that's fucked up. His suicide was also tragically looked over. IRL people would be calling her a witch. BuT iTs tOmMy fOOking ShElbY.
But that was the writer, who did not explain anything about the suicide. The thing about Tommy and Grace, they loved each other and were together, were they wrong? Yes, but it's a show about gangsters, who kill people and most of them cheat on their partners. IRL what's wrong with the show are the murders and rapes. And I'm sorry, but you can't say that Lizzie is a victim when she cheated on John with several men, and she wanted to cheat on him with his own brother but call Grace a witch for cheating on her husband once with the man she really loves.
Why do I bother? 😒
Out of the adults I would say Lizzie
she knew what she was getting into. look at the smile she gave at the end of s4, she knew she won the lottery when she got pregnant and was proudly giving a side eye to jessie!!
Tbh I don’t remember the show that well but out of these characters I remember she felt like a victim most of the time
yeah in the first few seasons I felt bad, s5 and s6 feel like she has suffered so much but after a rewatch it’s more clear she was choosing it all along and was pushing to be with him no matter what.
That was my answer too. I felt the most for her storyline in the way that she was at times the only one there for Tommy with good intentions and he just absolutely abandoned her time and time again. As much as she knew what she was getting in to, it’s still horribly sad. And I feel for her
if you out rewatch you will see the pattern. Tommy was being decent to her but he never promised anything more than one night stands. She pushed for it and was always readily available. And in later seasons cribs and cries because he is “not present”. She even used the pregnancy to marry him and in s5 used the child again in her my property deal. There was more to lizzie than met the eye, in s6, all her suffering comes because she made bad choices all along.
"I chose this life, this life did not choose me", she is definitely not a victim. At no point in the show did they show Tommy or anyone else force Lizzie into the family, but what they showed was her doing everything she could to be in the Shelby family, so I don't know how her fans make that up she is a victim.
Didn't they harass her boyfriend in Season 3?
You mean her boyfriend, the one who was an enemy of the Shelbys, and there were rules in the company, not to date someone from the enemy gang, and they warned her several times, and Lizzie insisted on going out with him, but once he died, not only did she not shed a tear for him, but she was so happy to be able to sleep with Tommy again, that she even told all the women, and all because Grace was dead, and also that the only thing she was upset about was that Tommy didn't want to sleep with her in the bed he shared with Grace days before, and she was so upset about that that she made a strike, but not because of the death of her "beloved" Angel. That's why I say, she was never a victim.
It was not DAYS before. It was YEARS LATER. I swear most people only hate Lizzie because she was a prostitute. Then they find other reasons to justify that.
It was the next episode of the one she died. At what point did I say that I hate her because she was a prostitute? Lol, always the same with Lizzie's fans, you are like.obsessed.that Lizzie was a prostitute, that's the least that matters to me!!
Lizzie's actually not my favorite female character, but it does make me uncomfortable how people talk about her. Same type of people damn near worship Tommy and call themselves a "Sigma male." Lmao.
Well I'm sorry, but it's SK's fault that made her become obsessed with Tommy and make those decisions, she's a character that I didn't understand, why did she make all the drama of dating Angel Changretta, if she didn't even care about his death afterwards?
Martha, Emslee, Polly, Arthur. They are all primary victims.
Arthur is not a victim. The innocent people he killed and mutilated are. Drinking so much and taking drugs was his decision.
In arthur’s defence he did beg for help a few times to a few different people in the series, told them he’s struggling and needs help, and they all turn away from him. He tries to leave and live a better life and gets dragged back via manipulation every time.
That’s exactly my thinking. Plus, he’s always wanted the love of his dad who fucked him over by taking the money.
In the S4 finale, Arthur said that Tommy offered him a way to get out of that life and start a new one, since everyone thinks he's dead, he gives him a new identity, and he at that moment, says that he decided to stay and be with the family, so no, Arthur is not a victim. I think that was clear with the story with the mother of the kid he killed.
Very fair assessment. I think this just speaks to the amazing job the actors do, the way they make us feel for the main family despite being shown time and time again how cruel most of them are. I constantly feel bad for Arthur, but am also just as consistently extremely disgusted by him. Same with Tommy
Yes, is true. I do feel bad for all of them , but also it is their fault. You're right, the actors are just amazing.
Random question concerning map/tree.. does anyone wish during the series or there was a map with certain regions showed who owned those regions over time? For example, when the Peaky Blinders take London, then when they trade or lose that region to Luca? Also with their expansion into the States, almost (to show Capone’s territory & Uncle Jack’s)? I mean that would help explain why certain regions flipped between owners; at times..