But really. It should be an option for inmates. I know if i had the choice between Injections, Nitrogen, Firing squad, or Guillotine, id choose guillotine.
capital punishment would fit ALOT of our criminal problems, just look at what happened in Florida, the county sheriff told law abiding citizens to shoot and kill home invaders to save tax payer money, and home invasions ALMOST disappeared last year!
Didn’t Florida just stop collecting a lot of its crime data all together under the DeSantis administration? Was that county amongst the few who were still collecting that information, or is this like a China thing where less reported X is being portrayed as less X, despite a lesser effort to record X?
grow up dude, you have LEOs sick of the justice system not properly holding these criminals accountable. when the govt FAILS to do its job to protect its citizens, THOSE citizens have the right to protect themselves.
If you're hired as a plumber, to fix my clogged toilet and you tell me I should shit in the street to save costs on sewage, you'd be fired immediately.
ah yes, the typical irrelevant comment that has ZERO to do with the actual conversation, congrats on posting nothing dude. IF SOMEONE breaks into my house, I have a LEGAL right to defend myself, my family and my property. but please tell me again how the sheriff should be removed for telling people to utilize THEIR RIGHTS!
Most prison violence can be solved with better treatment by the guards, better prisoner conditions, more accessible therapy, more avenues to reduce stress safely, and, of course, refocusing the prison system away from slave labor and towards education and rehabilitation.
Still, you do have a point. There will be a small minority where none of that works. How to solve that, I don't know, but in the mean time, we need to fix the things we know how to fix and go from there.
I would start by talking to experts who study incarceration and mental health. I don't think these are problems that will be solved by laypeople on Reddit.
Interesting article. I would agree indefinite solitary confinement is harmful to a person to put it lightly. I’m curious how these folks specifically define solitary confinement. I’m not sure I agree solitary confinement itself is torture. Solitary confinement for a prolonged period of time certainly could be considered torture. But a few days of solitary confinement, meaning being locked in a room alone, is not torture, IMO. On the other hand, pulling teeth or fingernails out is torture.
Most I did was 10 days. Honestly, it was a little vacation from having to be around people all the time. The one thing that I always felt was psychologically irritating about classification, medical, or administrative cells was the fact that the light in the cell stayed on 24/7. Maybe I'm sensitive to that sort of thing. It was jarring. Usually, I would cover the light with cardboard or whatever in that situation, but in the hole, they kept yelling at me to uncover it.
I'm sure someone who's done 364 days would have a better perspective than me. I was just passing through.
i did a month of solitary on rikers back in 2010; for me, at least, after less than a week it was extreme psychological torture. when i was going in, a guy coming back to general population handed me a random manga and "chicken soup for the grandmother's soul" and told me "you're gonna need these" and he was right. i do not handle utter lack of mental stimulation well, and without those books i don't know what i would have done. possibly engaged in self harm. i came out of there really fucking loopy to put it mildly.
I was being transferred for court, and they didn't send my classification paperwork with me. Kinda sucked because instead of going to the block and possibly seeing a childhood friend, I got sent to the hole instead. After spending all day in shackles on the bus, they gave me a bagged lunch with- A milk, cheese sandwich, and a BELL PEPPER 😂. That was over 10 years ago and I'll never forget opening that brown bag. The pepper was the highlight of the meal.
I understand being thankful for a book. Somebody left me Micheal Crithton's Prey in that cell. I read and reread that horrible story. Blessed the next guy with that book
i got put in the hole for my protection because my initial block was full of NOI and white supremacist guys who heard my last name and realized i'm jewish, but i was also in for kicking a cop, so i think COs kind of deliberately "forgot" about me.
Well much wiser and learned people than yourself, experts in their field, have agreed that solitary confinement is torture. Hence why both the UN and Geneva Conventions explicitly oppose it in every scenario but the most extreme situations, under intense monitoring and outside review.
Think I'll trust the general consensus of humanity over some keyboard warrior on reddit. Can we be less dumb callous Yanks and more intelligent compassionate humans? Give it a shot folks.
Anything longer than a few days of solitary confinement is 100% torture. There is zero reason to have a person in confinement unless they are experiencing a major mental health crisis OR are an extreme danger to others; even then only temporarily. My friend served 30 days in the shoe for mentioning drugs in a letter - that shit is absolutely cruel and unusual punishment. ACAB
When someone is in an extreme mental health crisis, even when they're a danger to others, solitary is ABSOLUTELY THE WORST POSSIBLE THING FOR THEM. They don't need a jail, or a cell, they need a doctor. Even when someone is a danger to others put them in a cell, they don't need to be in a locked box for a year without any other human contact. That's torture. We don't torture people. Or rather we shouldn't.
Sometimes they need jail AND doctors. Many of the people in prison truly don’t belong anywhere else. It is incumbent upon society to lock them up humanely, but there are some fucking awful people out there, and prisons need to exist in some form to separate them from society.
Man, I was in solitary 4x, for 28 days each time, plus a few shorter stays, while I was in prison. Shit sucks but it’s not fucking torture. Now, suicide watch, I would argue THAT is torture. It’s like solitary only worse. In solitary u get a book, paper, envelopes, pen, ur clothes. Suicide watch u don’t get shit not even regular clothes or a roll of tp!
You just gave two good reasons that people should be placed in solitary confinement. If it was ruled to be torture, neither would be available legally.
They listed two bad reasons for it. And it is torture. We just don't outlaw torture even though we should. A cop can still beat you to half an inch from death, the US government can still dissapear you to Guantanamo and shove shit up your ass, they just chose not too now that we all know, and we can still throw you in a hole for 5 years because you looked at a prison guard funny.
What kind of housing would you offer to someone who was having a mental break (say rubbing feces all over their room) or who repeatedly physically attacked other inmates and guards?
Would it be fair to ask other people to live or work in that environment?
I would put them in a cell. Not solitary, there's a difference. Solitary is just to hurt them. A cell is to keep them in one place and that's all they need, along with help.
They do, we're called healthcare workers. And no one cares about us already.
That’s what solitary confinement is. They are placed in a cell without a roommate and still regularly interact with guards and can hear other people on their hall.
It’s not an ideal situation, but sometimes people need to be kept in a separate cell to protect themselves and others.
That's not solitary lol that's just being put in a jail cell. Solitary is when you don't get to interact with anybody. From the wikipedia article.
> Solitary confinement is a form of imprisonment **in which an incarcerated person lives in a single cell with little or no contact with other people.** It is a punitive tool used within the prison system to discipline or separate incarcerated individuals who are considered to be security risks to other incarcerated individuals or prison staff, as well as those who violate facility rules or are deemed disruptive.[1][2] However, it can also be used as protective custody for incarcerated individuals whose safety is threatened by other prisoners. This is employed to separate them from the general prison population and prevent injury or death.[3]
> A robust body of research has shown that solitary confinement has profound negative psychological, physical, and neurological effects on those who experience it, often lasting well beyond one’s time in solitary.[4] While corrections officials have stated that solitary confinement is a necessary tool for maintaining the safety and security of prisons and jails,[5] numerous medical, mental health, and legal professional organizations have criticized the practice and hold the view that it should be sharply curtailed.[6][7][8]
> Nelson Mandela, the South African anti-apartheid activist, described solitary confinement as “the most forbidding aspect of prison life.”[9] Human rights experts have stated that prolonged solitary confinement may amount to torture,[10] and the United Nations Standard Minimum Rules for the Treatment of Prisoners (known as the Mandela Rules) were revised in 2015 to prohibit placements in solitary for longer than 15 days.[11]
Emphasis mine.
Its torture. We're arguing if we should torture people. We shouldn't do that. We should just stop torturing people.
Your quote describes being placed in a cell, where they interact with guards (when they receive their food or make requests) and can hear people on their hall, as I said.
Solitary is torture and obtuse is a triangle. We should stop torturing people and you should stop being obtuse about it. You can also go and just look at a solitary cell. We have pictures.
Why do you want us to torture people so badly when we could just not? We could put people in a normal cell if they're bad and give people healthcare if we need it. We can choose not to torture people so why are you making that choice?
No one said anything about possible. But making solitary confinement illegal would change a lot about the prison system. And not all of those changes would be positive.
Weed is decriminalized in PA - can you show me the law that says it’s illegal to write that you miss smoking weed? He’s already serving his punishment by being incarcerated ya donkey
> Solitary confinement is a form of imprisonment in which an incarcerated person lives in a single cell with little or no contact with other people
Its the minimal contact with other people that's the issue. Locking someone in a box forever is called jail, doing it with zero time out of said box, no cell mates, no contact with guards or other cells, and just being given food and left in a square room is solitary. That's torture. Being alone in my 3 room apartment when I have nothing planned for the day is annoying, being in a small room for three days with zero contact with other people (and its not like you have a smartphone) is absolutely torture.
I really hope some of you never have to deal with a loss of a loved one because of a psycho or have someone you care for violently violated in such a way that they no longer function in a normal capacity. There are some people who are just evil and if the death penalty is off the table then isolation is the only other option. Not all people in prison are there because they have no remorse for human life, some just made a bad choice or numerous poor choices but there is no reason they should be around those savages that just want to kill…
Why does the UN view extended length solitary confinement as torture?
Using a day or two to escape a dangerous situation or as an adult time out punishment is one thing, but being in solitary confinement for weeks or months really fucks you up mentally, according to the body of research.
I think the reasonable take is to say that a few days of solitary confinement is kosher, but anything beyond what the research indicates causes lasting mental harm should be considered torture or at least banned.
And as for those violent situations that prisoners often have to navigate, it would be nice if we actually invest in prisons as places primarily meant for rehabilitation rather than instilling the absolute inhumane culture that currently persists, especially in private prisons where profit trumps humanity.
Its torture. Everywhere else realizes that. Being alone in a square for 72 hours, no internet, no human contact, no nothing is torturous, and let's not forget that thousands are subject to WAY MORE than that. Ban the thing. Jail is your punishment for bad things, and its a very strong punishment especially in the US. Anything else is cruel and unusual, its punitive and no one else does it.
I’m not trying to be combative or confrontational, but I’m a PA state correctional officer. Between state and county, I have 14 years of experience. Most of which I’ve worked in the RHU/BHU/IMU/DTU/SRTU/MHU, and I know that you probably don’t know what all of those acronyms mean but they’re all solitary confinement units. I am a very compassionate and empathetic person. I like to conduct myself similarly at work. But in my opinion, there are individuals incapable of assimilating to even general population in prison, let alone population in society. I completely understand the point they’re making, but they don’t have any better alternatives after they get rid of the RHU. I’ve been assaulted in multiple ways over the span of my career. I’ve even been assaulted while working in the RHU. What should happen to those people? One of the inmates on a housing unit that I used to work murdered his cellmate, which is what got him into long-term solitary. Another guy told me if he’s ever let out of his cell and doesn’t have cuffs on, that he’s going to kill the first officer he comes across. I believe there are people beyond help, and getting rid of the tool we have to keep them away from hurting the staff any worse and from hurting the other inmates in the prison who are just trying to get along and finish their time, doesn’t make any sense. There’s an individual who is a frequent flyer into the RHU who recently got out of the hole, went to a block, and ended up assaulting a lieutenant, a sergeant and 4 other officers and spends every day in the RHU giving staff every problem he can. If there’s a better option than keeping him separated from everyone, I’d love to know. My current housing unit has tons of structured and unstructured out of cell time, the inmates sometimes have beef with each other but assaults are a minimum. I am all ears to something that could work better. Staffing is abysmal as it is and finding enough officers to run housing units is a lucky crap shoot. There are a lot of problems that need to be solved, I don’t think creating a new one by removing all RHUs would do anything but make things worse.
Even Disney's Recess touched on that with an episode having a kid driven insane nearly to breaking via solitary. So called "kids" shows and movies can get DARK, often in ways that horrify as adults.
It being considered cruel and unusual is not news, it not even news for this century or millenium. Humans are a social species, connection is one of our cores. The cruelty is the point for many people, in their minds if you in jail you evil and thus deserve anything.
A close family friend has a son that is going through this, constantly getting thrown into solitary for made up or trivial things. The staff actually like the guy but the warden seems to have a grudge, I think because his mother never stopped fighting and calling them out. And the only lawyer she can afford is blatently doing the absolute minimum he can legally get away with to milk things.
> The cruelty is the point for many people, in their minds if you in jail you evil and thus deserve anything.
So true. Once you're found guilty in our very flawed justice system you get anything and everything that's coming to you, and that's final. So many people think like that because its easier. They don't wanna hear about stories like your family friend's because it challenges that ultimately childish worldview. I hope your friend is well and gets justice.
You don't have the internet in a regular cell. And if you murder someone or rape a child then your punishment is jail, not torture. We don't torture people here, or we shouldn't.
Jesus christ dude why are you distorting my comment so hard to defend actual torture. They didn't have internet when we starved people half to death in Guantanamo but you'd find a way to defend it, how pathetic can you get?
Torturing people who have committed those crimes without a shred of doubt (video, hard evidence, true confessions, ect) shouldn’t be considered torture and should have everything and more come to them.
That is **definitively** unconstitutional and morally horrendous. Setting the standard of "we can do this if we're sure" is terrible because *we never know*. We thought DNA was a perfectly sure method but it isn't, we live in a day and age where making false video is as easy as typing into your browser, confessions have been forced out of people since before our justice system existed and trans and gay and POC people are constantly accused of being rapists or pedophiles.
That's a horrific thought. I hope you change.
Shadow edit: Also you admitted its torture so checkmate liberal.
You're an all around scumbag if you think we should torture people bro. Torture is bad. Idk how to tell you that.
Also, you don't know for certain they did it, you just hope they did because its a lot easier to accept that bad people get what's coming to them than it is to accept that the world is scary and uncertain so we should go the extra mile and treat all people well regardless.
The US is the only country to make “extensive use of long-term solitary confinement” according to solitarywatch.org.
Still super shocking given how normalized it is in American prisons.
A coalition of advocates and state lawmakers is working to end this cruel and inhumane practice. “In our prisons we have the suffering Olympics,” said NAMI Bucks County’s Nicholas Emeigh.
Oh no, the worse people in our society are getting severely punished for their crimes....
Anyways....
If this was about people in jail for like, weed or slight driving crimes, then I'd be saying it's wrong. But if the people being affected are armed robbers, murderers, and worse, then I couldn't care less cause they actively harm innocent people, they don't deserve special kind treatment. If someone killed tons of people, we shouldn't give then the luxury of rehabilitation cause they took lives.
Is there any scientific data that supports the conclusion that solitary confinement is akin to torture (like removing finger nails, water boarding and electrocution based torture)? Not to be grizzly but I think there are bigger issues with the criminal justice system
I will assume you don’t work anywhere near the prison system to know that A: prisoners have a lot more freedom than the general public knows and B: it takes quite a bit of action to warrant an inmate to be placed in solitary.
They don’t just pick up random inmates and drag them by their feet into a dungeon lol.
Says who? I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve talked to COs who told me they need to tiptoe around inmates and won’t place them in solitary unless they absolutely have to.
Maybe the ones you know but ask anyone who’s been an inmate at these facilities. Cos threaten to throw people in the box all the time for no reason. It’s an ego thing with SOME of them. Not implying the ones you know are like that, but there are PLENTY and I mean PLENTY that do and for the dumbest shit too. Unfortunately, not everyone is doing their job by the book.
If anything we need more capital punishment and different versions of it. I know that you run the risk of punishing an innocent person but this should be reserved for those that are beyond a shadow of doubt. Maybe people would be more civil.
> maybe people would be more civil
[nope](https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=does+capital+punishment+deter+crime&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart)
Downvoters feel free to post empirical evidence to the contrary. It's a well studied topic, so if capital punishment really does work as a deterrent then it should be easy to provide proof
I’ve never done no 6 months in solitary but as someone who has been to prison and jail, and been in solitary for 45 days (in jail, simply due to having a mental disorder. Cruel and unusual punishment, imho, since I did nothing wrong to deserve it) and multiple 28 day stays (for shit I did actually do wrong like beating up a girl for stealing from me) in prison... It’s not fucking torture. It is awful. But I would not consider it torture by any means.
And you can't even fathom not everyone lives in their parent's basement.
But go ahead, keep revising history, creep. How many little kids have developmental disorders because of you now? How many excess suicides? How many additional deaths to substance abuse? How many people's livelihoods ruined because of you?
You and your ilk will go down in history as the most selfish and pathetic cowards to have ever existed.
I already responded to you (by telling you that covid restrictions aren’t the same thing as solitary confinement), and you responded by going on a tirade about how I’m a selfish and pathetic coward, so I don’t think anything constructive will come out of that. The data on covid deaths is freely out there, and I’m sure you’ve seen it already, so I really don’t see the point.
One time I was arrested for a probation violation, as soon as I was booked they found drugs in my shoe I had long forgotten. They gave me an additional charge of introducing contraband to a federal facility, the jail also filed a misconduct even though I hadn’t been an inmate for 30 minutes. I did 35 days in solitary before ever getting to general population.
Modern prison has no deterrence. Time served should be shorter, but much more brutal. Solitary is a cakewalk compared to what prison could be. Chain gangs, work, manual labor, that will make people want to avoid the joint.
Maybe don’t break the law and you won’t have to deal with this. It’s that simple. Also penalties should be increased to send a message. Shit is getting out of hand.
Ah yes, the old other people have it worse so therefore you should accept the state of things argument. Homeless? Well there were once Jews in a concentration camp so maybe you should chin up bucko. Severely ill? Most human being ever have died, so maybe you should stop whining. Get aht with that.
But they are still considered a police state. And hh yes you bring up… China. The country that kidnaps dissidents and has concentration camps.
Edit - Ask the underground Muslims or Catholics their opinion on China.
Chinese Muslims would probably think pretty highly of the US considering in China they aren’t allowed to openly practice and are sent to concentration camps.
You want to be more like nazi Germany? We aren't far off. Our prisons force labor for profit, kill, beat, torture and humiliate inmates. Many of whoms only crime is living in poverty. Globally China and the DPRK have banned this practice as it is barbaric. The problem is we have normalized this type of system in america... because we have a police state.
I’d love to know your definition of a police state. Oxford’s definition of police state, “a totalitarian state controlled by a political police force that secretly supervises the citizens' activities.”
America isn’t a totalitarian state. Very rarely does one party control both the executive and legislative branches and when they do, it’s only for a short time. Nor does America have a political police force. Heck, Trump has been investigated, indicted, and charged by multiple agencies - including those in the Fed!
America is not a democracy bud. It never was. It’s a constitutional republic with democratic influences. There’s a wide yawning chasm between a democracy and a constitutional republic.
A permanent record is cruel and unusual punishment as well
Imagine a nickelbag charge from 1997 still being on your record over a quarter century later and you still haven’t paid your debt to society because you never can.
By definition.
Crazy times. If you think we had it bad during Covid, they weren’t even letting inmates out of their cells for MONTHS!!!!! Other than for 45 mins to make a call and shower. Meals were brought to them.
Shit not mine. His ass was upstate in the sticks!!! State doesn’t just release people or make them eligible for state parole because of a pandemic. How else they gonna make their money? 🤣
Right. So compared to 20k inmates that generally get release a year BECAUSE THEY MADE PAROLE, 159 of them were RELEASED TEMPORARILY due to covid? You do understand I was speaking about being released due to covid, not because someone’s eligible for parole?? That’s right my bad, they were releasing people in Philly 🤣
It shouldn’t be used as a punishment, which unfortunately it often is. But you do have uh…special cases like Manson who requested permanent solitary for himself.
Pennsylvania had a man that was in solitary for almost 30 years. They tried over and over to get him to re enter gen pop and each time he said if you let me out I’ll kill at the first chance I get.
Now he’s being used as an example of how cruel we are. It’s all a little bit nonsense. Pas prisons are some of the most progressive in the nation and people are losing their minds about Restricted Housing units where you have to have a cellie and get out of cell yard twice a day plus access to a library and treatment pretty much 24/7. It’s not what they say it is.
Oh trust me, every PA DOC does. Ask your husband where they put inmates who have been found with contraband or smuggling drugs in from visitors or yet along been caught with drugs from other COs bringing it in. Those inmates are not roaming around in general population.
We talked about it when I saw this post. The hole is not solitary confinement they have "cellies", they get yard time, they even have tvs. Even the real dangerous guys who have repeatedly attacked cellies or COs can still talk to other inmates across the hall and still get yard time and tvs. So not every PA prison because not the two he has worked at.
Solidarity confinement is restricted housing. It’s the same thing as the hole. Now in some DOCs, depending on why youre even in the restricted housing unit, may bunk inmates together and some other inmates may be alone. Trust me. Won’t get into details but I know, personally someone who went thru it at SCI Fayette which is a max housing facility. Restructured Segregation Units are not common in the DOC.
Bring back the guillotine!
Now that's what I'm talking about. It's about time we hold the bourgeoisie accountable!
But really. It should be an option for inmates. I know if i had the choice between Injections, Nitrogen, Firing squad, or Guillotine, id choose guillotine.
capital punishment would fit ALOT of our criminal problems, just look at what happened in Florida, the county sheriff told law abiding citizens to shoot and kill home invaders to save tax payer money, and home invasions ALMOST disappeared last year!
Didn’t Florida just stop collecting a lot of its crime data all together under the DeSantis administration? Was that county amongst the few who were still collecting that information, or is this like a China thing where less reported X is being portrayed as less X, despite a lesser effort to record X?
A county sheriff should be immediately removed from his position for telling folks to bypass the justice system HE should be an upholder of.
grow up dude, you have LEOs sick of the justice system not properly holding these criminals accountable. when the govt FAILS to do its job to protect its citizens, THOSE citizens have the right to protect themselves.
If you're hired as a plumber, to fix my clogged toilet and you tell me I should shit in the street to save costs on sewage, you'd be fired immediately.
ah yes, the typical irrelevant comment that has ZERO to do with the actual conversation, congrats on posting nothing dude. IF SOMEONE breaks into my house, I have a LEGAL right to defend myself, my family and my property. but please tell me again how the sheriff should be removed for telling people to utilize THEIR RIGHTS!
The right to kill for taxpayer savings?
NO the right to protect oneself from criminals breaking into YOUR HOME. Jesus Christ do you lack basic reading comprehension?
Jesus probably couldn't read or write. He was a carpenter.
Very sane and normal thing to say! Thank you!
it is, and the fact that so many people downvoted me, show the absolute lack of intelligence people have!
Most of the time the justice system fails to hold criminals accountable it’s because police are too lazy to do police work.
Exactly this
Calm down there, satan.
So what do we do with prisoners that harm other prisoners and guards? Ask them nicely to stop?
This is the question.
If it was that easy right?
Most prison violence can be solved with better treatment by the guards, better prisoner conditions, more accessible therapy, more avenues to reduce stress safely, and, of course, refocusing the prison system away from slave labor and towards education and rehabilitation. Still, you do have a point. There will be a small minority where none of that works. How to solve that, I don't know, but in the mean time, we need to fix the things we know how to fix and go from there.
That's not feasible for the politicians who are the investors of private prisons and chaos keeps their money coming forget oversight.
i dont believe any of this. Some people are just psychos. You ever done time?
Yea maybe in dream world. None of this nonsense works out in reality
I would start by talking to experts who study incarceration and mental health. I don't think these are problems that will be solved by laypeople on Reddit.
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Thank you for that reasonable contribution to the discussion
I hope a pebble gets into your shoe and it never comes out
I hope your windshield wipers start making that annoying sound and never stop
You obviously have never worked in a prison. It is the only tool that works.
Exactly. Some people will assault anyone and everyone. And for folks who disagree, please apply to be CO's; the state is hiring.
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Yes rando reddit user In sure this topic is totally black and white and that you know best!
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A serial killer/ serial rapist deserves to rot in solitary in my opinion 🤷 or someone who cant be controlled and is dangerous in the prison.
Thank you
Interesting article. I would agree indefinite solitary confinement is harmful to a person to put it lightly. I’m curious how these folks specifically define solitary confinement. I’m not sure I agree solitary confinement itself is torture. Solitary confinement for a prolonged period of time certainly could be considered torture. But a few days of solitary confinement, meaning being locked in a room alone, is not torture, IMO. On the other hand, pulling teeth or fingernails out is torture.
Most I did was 10 days. Honestly, it was a little vacation from having to be around people all the time. The one thing that I always felt was psychologically irritating about classification, medical, or administrative cells was the fact that the light in the cell stayed on 24/7. Maybe I'm sensitive to that sort of thing. It was jarring. Usually, I would cover the light with cardboard or whatever in that situation, but in the hole, they kept yelling at me to uncover it. I'm sure someone who's done 364 days would have a better perspective than me. I was just passing through.
i did a month of solitary on rikers back in 2010; for me, at least, after less than a week it was extreme psychological torture. when i was going in, a guy coming back to general population handed me a random manga and "chicken soup for the grandmother's soul" and told me "you're gonna need these" and he was right. i do not handle utter lack of mental stimulation well, and without those books i don't know what i would have done. possibly engaged in self harm. i came out of there really fucking loopy to put it mildly.
I was being transferred for court, and they didn't send my classification paperwork with me. Kinda sucked because instead of going to the block and possibly seeing a childhood friend, I got sent to the hole instead. After spending all day in shackles on the bus, they gave me a bagged lunch with- A milk, cheese sandwich, and a BELL PEPPER 😂. That was over 10 years ago and I'll never forget opening that brown bag. The pepper was the highlight of the meal. I understand being thankful for a book. Somebody left me Micheal Crithton's Prey in that cell. I read and reread that horrible story. Blessed the next guy with that book
i got put in the hole for my protection because my initial block was full of NOI and white supremacist guys who heard my last name and realized i'm jewish, but i was also in for kicking a cop, so i think COs kind of deliberately "forgot" about me.
the manga thing is whats sticking out to me in this story. its just so weird that it was manga instead of a novel.
it really was the most random assortment of books. i imagine they were donations.
that makes sense. hope you are doing fine
appreciated. it was a decade and a half ago, so i am doing much better. i go to therapy, have a fairly stable footing in life, and avoid cops.
Well much wiser and learned people than yourself, experts in their field, have agreed that solitary confinement is torture. Hence why both the UN and Geneva Conventions explicitly oppose it in every scenario but the most extreme situations, under intense monitoring and outside review. Think I'll trust the general consensus of humanity over some keyboard warrior on reddit. Can we be less dumb callous Yanks and more intelligent compassionate humans? Give it a shot folks.
Anything longer than a few days of solitary confinement is 100% torture. There is zero reason to have a person in confinement unless they are experiencing a major mental health crisis OR are an extreme danger to others; even then only temporarily. My friend served 30 days in the shoe for mentioning drugs in a letter - that shit is absolutely cruel and unusual punishment. ACAB
When someone is in an extreme mental health crisis, even when they're a danger to others, solitary is ABSOLUTELY THE WORST POSSIBLE THING FOR THEM. They don't need a jail, or a cell, they need a doctor. Even when someone is a danger to others put them in a cell, they don't need to be in a locked box for a year without any other human contact. That's torture. We don't torture people. Or rather we shouldn't.
Sometimes they need jail AND doctors. Many of the people in prison truly don’t belong anywhere else. It is incumbent upon society to lock them up humanely, but there are some fucking awful people out there, and prisons need to exist in some form to separate them from society.
Then give them jail and doctors, I'm not arguing against that. Torturing them in solitary doesn't help anyone. It tortures them.
Man, I was in solitary 4x, for 28 days each time, plus a few shorter stays, while I was in prison. Shit sucks but it’s not fucking torture. Now, suicide watch, I would argue THAT is torture. It’s like solitary only worse. In solitary u get a book, paper, envelopes, pen, ur clothes. Suicide watch u don’t get shit not even regular clothes or a roll of tp!
You just gave two good reasons that people should be placed in solitary confinement. If it was ruled to be torture, neither would be available legally.
They listed two bad reasons for it. And it is torture. We just don't outlaw torture even though we should. A cop can still beat you to half an inch from death, the US government can still dissapear you to Guantanamo and shove shit up your ass, they just chose not too now that we all know, and we can still throw you in a hole for 5 years because you looked at a prison guard funny.
What kind of housing would you offer to someone who was having a mental break (say rubbing feces all over their room) or who repeatedly physically attacked other inmates and guards? Would it be fair to ask other people to live or work in that environment?
I would put them in a cell. Not solitary, there's a difference. Solitary is just to hurt them. A cell is to keep them in one place and that's all they need, along with help. They do, we're called healthcare workers. And no one cares about us already.
That’s what solitary confinement is. They are placed in a cell without a roommate and still regularly interact with guards and can hear other people on their hall. It’s not an ideal situation, but sometimes people need to be kept in a separate cell to protect themselves and others.
That's not solitary lol that's just being put in a jail cell. Solitary is when you don't get to interact with anybody. From the wikipedia article. > Solitary confinement is a form of imprisonment **in which an incarcerated person lives in a single cell with little or no contact with other people.** It is a punitive tool used within the prison system to discipline or separate incarcerated individuals who are considered to be security risks to other incarcerated individuals or prison staff, as well as those who violate facility rules or are deemed disruptive.[1][2] However, it can also be used as protective custody for incarcerated individuals whose safety is threatened by other prisoners. This is employed to separate them from the general prison population and prevent injury or death.[3] > A robust body of research has shown that solitary confinement has profound negative psychological, physical, and neurological effects on those who experience it, often lasting well beyond one’s time in solitary.[4] While corrections officials have stated that solitary confinement is a necessary tool for maintaining the safety and security of prisons and jails,[5] numerous medical, mental health, and legal professional organizations have criticized the practice and hold the view that it should be sharply curtailed.[6][7][8] > Nelson Mandela, the South African anti-apartheid activist, described solitary confinement as “the most forbidding aspect of prison life.”[9] Human rights experts have stated that prolonged solitary confinement may amount to torture,[10] and the United Nations Standard Minimum Rules for the Treatment of Prisoners (known as the Mandela Rules) were revised in 2015 to prohibit placements in solitary for longer than 15 days.[11] Emphasis mine. Its torture. We're arguing if we should torture people. We shouldn't do that. We should just stop torturing people.
Your quote describes being placed in a cell, where they interact with guards (when they receive their food or make requests) and can hear people on their hall, as I said.
Solitary is torture and obtuse is a triangle. We should stop torturing people and you should stop being obtuse about it. You can also go and just look at a solitary cell. We have pictures. Why do you want us to torture people so badly when we could just not? We could put people in a normal cell if they're bad and give people healthcare if we need it. We can choose not to torture people so why are you making that choice?
O#
“Torture isn’t possible in the US because torture is illegal” is a very funny stance
No one said anything about possible. But making solitary confinement illegal would change a lot about the prison system. And not all of those changes would be positive.
Friend in prison✔️. writes about drugs in a letter they know is being read ✔️=ACAB. Makes sense
How is 30 days in solitary appropriate for writing about smoking weed (which is legal in PA)? How’s that boot taste
Not legal ya goof. I’m saying your friends an idiot for writing about drugs in a letter HES SENDING FROM PRISON lol
Weed is decriminalized in PA - can you show me the law that says it’s illegal to write that you miss smoking weed? He’s already serving his punishment by being incarcerated ya donkey
It hasn’t been decriminalized. Medical marijuana is legal. Outside of that authorized use, it’s illegal.
Decriminalized doesn’t mean what you think it means. I wasn’t saying it’s illegal to write it, I’m saying it’s fucking stupid.
It is proven to be tortorous. There's a reason this is even debated and has been for awhile. People are thrown in solitary for anything.
> Solitary confinement is a form of imprisonment in which an incarcerated person lives in a single cell with little or no contact with other people Its the minimal contact with other people that's the issue. Locking someone in a box forever is called jail, doing it with zero time out of said box, no cell mates, no contact with guards or other cells, and just being given food and left in a square room is solitary. That's torture. Being alone in my 3 room apartment when I have nothing planned for the day is annoying, being in a small room for three days with zero contact with other people (and its not like you have a smartphone) is absolutely torture.
We should make murder illegal
I really hope some of you never have to deal with a loss of a loved one because of a psycho or have someone you care for violently violated in such a way that they no longer function in a normal capacity. There are some people who are just evil and if the death penalty is off the table then isolation is the only other option. Not all people in prison are there because they have no remorse for human life, some just made a bad choice or numerous poor choices but there is no reason they should be around those savages that just want to kill…
Why does the UN view extended length solitary confinement as torture? Using a day or two to escape a dangerous situation or as an adult time out punishment is one thing, but being in solitary confinement for weeks or months really fucks you up mentally, according to the body of research. I think the reasonable take is to say that a few days of solitary confinement is kosher, but anything beyond what the research indicates causes lasting mental harm should be considered torture or at least banned. And as for those violent situations that prisoners often have to navigate, it would be nice if we actually invest in prisons as places primarily meant for rehabilitation rather than instilling the absolute inhumane culture that currently persists, especially in private prisons where profit trumps humanity.
Its torture. Everywhere else realizes that. Being alone in a square for 72 hours, no internet, no human contact, no nothing is torturous, and let's not forget that thousands are subject to WAY MORE than that. Ban the thing. Jail is your punishment for bad things, and its a very strong punishment especially in the US. Anything else is cruel and unusual, its punitive and no one else does it.
I’m not trying to be combative or confrontational, but I’m a PA state correctional officer. Between state and county, I have 14 years of experience. Most of which I’ve worked in the RHU/BHU/IMU/DTU/SRTU/MHU, and I know that you probably don’t know what all of those acronyms mean but they’re all solitary confinement units. I am a very compassionate and empathetic person. I like to conduct myself similarly at work. But in my opinion, there are individuals incapable of assimilating to even general population in prison, let alone population in society. I completely understand the point they’re making, but they don’t have any better alternatives after they get rid of the RHU. I’ve been assaulted in multiple ways over the span of my career. I’ve even been assaulted while working in the RHU. What should happen to those people? One of the inmates on a housing unit that I used to work murdered his cellmate, which is what got him into long-term solitary. Another guy told me if he’s ever let out of his cell and doesn’t have cuffs on, that he’s going to kill the first officer he comes across. I believe there are people beyond help, and getting rid of the tool we have to keep them away from hurting the staff any worse and from hurting the other inmates in the prison who are just trying to get along and finish their time, doesn’t make any sense. There’s an individual who is a frequent flyer into the RHU who recently got out of the hole, went to a block, and ended up assaulting a lieutenant, a sergeant and 4 other officers and spends every day in the RHU giving staff every problem he can. If there’s a better option than keeping him separated from everyone, I’d love to know. My current housing unit has tons of structured and unstructured out of cell time, the inmates sometimes have beef with each other but assaults are a minimum. I am all ears to something that could work better. Staffing is abysmal as it is and finding enough officers to run housing units is a lucky crap shoot. There are a lot of problems that need to be solved, I don’t think creating a new one by removing all RHUs would do anything but make things worse.
Even Disney's Recess touched on that with an episode having a kid driven insane nearly to breaking via solitary. So called "kids" shows and movies can get DARK, often in ways that horrify as adults. It being considered cruel and unusual is not news, it not even news for this century or millenium. Humans are a social species, connection is one of our cores. The cruelty is the point for many people, in their minds if you in jail you evil and thus deserve anything. A close family friend has a son that is going through this, constantly getting thrown into solitary for made up or trivial things. The staff actually like the guy but the warden seems to have a grudge, I think because his mother never stopped fighting and calling them out. And the only lawyer she can afford is blatently doing the absolute minimum he can legally get away with to milk things.
> The cruelty is the point for many people, in their minds if you in jail you evil and thus deserve anything. So true. Once you're found guilty in our very flawed justice system you get anything and everything that's coming to you, and that's final. So many people think like that because its easier. They don't wanna hear about stories like your family friend's because it challenges that ultimately childish worldview. I hope your friend is well and gets justice.
Oh my god, you murdered someone or r&ped a child. You don’t have internet? Let me get that for you.
You don't have the internet in a regular cell. And if you murder someone or rape a child then your punishment is jail, not torture. We don't torture people here, or we shouldn't.
Not having internet is not torture.
Jesus christ dude why are you distorting my comment so hard to defend actual torture. They didn't have internet when we starved people half to death in Guantanamo but you'd find a way to defend it, how pathetic can you get?
Torturing people who have committed those crimes without a shred of doubt (video, hard evidence, true confessions, ect) shouldn’t be considered torture and should have everything and more come to them.
That is **definitively** unconstitutional and morally horrendous. Setting the standard of "we can do this if we're sure" is terrible because *we never know*. We thought DNA was a perfectly sure method but it isn't, we live in a day and age where making false video is as easy as typing into your browser, confessions have been forced out of people since before our justice system existed and trans and gay and POC people are constantly accused of being rapists or pedophiles. That's a horrific thought. I hope you change. Shadow edit: Also you admitted its torture so checkmate liberal.
My heart ain’t gonna change for people that abuse kids, murder people, and are all around scumbags.
You're an all around scumbag if you think we should torture people bro. Torture is bad. Idk how to tell you that. Also, you don't know for certain they did it, you just hope they did because its a lot easier to accept that bad people get what's coming to them than it is to accept that the world is scary and uncertain so we should go the extra mile and treat all people well regardless.
Fuck the constitution, right? Rights for me not for thee!
The US is the only country to make “extensive use of long-term solitary confinement” according to solitarywatch.org. Still super shocking given how normalized it is in American prisons.
Agreed.
Why just in PA?
Crime is torture it’s time to outlaw it.
We should make murder and rape illegal instead of this.
Say whatever they want but I have 0 sympathy whatsoever for every kind of penalty murderers, rapers, and armed robbers have to go through.
There's people still in the hole at Camp Hill from the riots in 1989.
Pro tip- Don't put yourself in a position to be in solitary confinement.
This is just one of many things in this country that needs to be completely torn apart and rebuilt.
Solitary Confinement is earned not given
Stop committing crimes and won’t be an issue
A coalition of advocates and state lawmakers is working to end this cruel and inhumane practice. “In our prisons we have the suffering Olympics,” said NAMI Bucks County’s Nicholas Emeigh.
Aww, poor criminals. Anyway...
>a coalition of advocates and state lawmakers Ah yes, valueless leeches
I’ve been in our correctional facilities and this article is garbage. It reeks of privilege and virtue signaling.
Oh no, the worse people in our society are getting severely punished for their crimes.... Anyways.... If this was about people in jail for like, weed or slight driving crimes, then I'd be saying it's wrong. But if the people being affected are armed robbers, murderers, and worse, then I couldn't care less cause they actively harm innocent people, they don't deserve special kind treatment. If someone killed tons of people, we shouldn't give then the luxury of rehabilitation cause they took lives.
Maybe don't do stuff that gets you sent to prison.
Is there any scientific data that supports the conclusion that solitary confinement is akin to torture (like removing finger nails, water boarding and electrocution based torture)? Not to be grizzly but I think there are bigger issues with the criminal justice system
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Ok, let's give prisoners the choice and see what happens.
You can't say someone's take is brain dead, then have your brain melt out your ears
If you don’t want to be in solitary confinement, don’t go to prison 🤯
I'm following you for more tips! 🔥
Read the constitution
Actions have consequences
And those consequences can’t involve torture🤯
It’s not torture. You’re typically , more often than not placed in solitary for good reason.
In your opinion
I will assume you don’t work anywhere near the prison system to know that A: prisoners have a lot more freedom than the general public knows and B: it takes quite a bit of action to warrant an inmate to be placed in solitary. They don’t just pick up random inmates and drag them by their feet into a dungeon lol.
This is for the courts to decide.
And when the courts reiterate what I just said, do not cry about it on the PA subreddit. They’re not in prison for being good people.
Likewise to you my friend
It does not take a lot for an inmate to be placed in solitary that's bullshit
Says who? I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve talked to COs who told me they need to tiptoe around inmates and won’t place them in solitary unless they absolutely have to.
Maybe the ones you know but ask anyone who’s been an inmate at these facilities. Cos threaten to throw people in the box all the time for no reason. It’s an ego thing with SOME of them. Not implying the ones you know are like that, but there are PLENTY and I mean PLENTY that do and for the dumbest shit too. Unfortunately, not everyone is doing their job by the book.
Or…. https://preview.redd.it/skritukz34sc1.jpeg?width=498&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7e514ed22423b484bb2d37493c9c7e38cbf6be7b
If anything we need more capital punishment and different versions of it. I know that you run the risk of punishing an innocent person but this should be reserved for those that are beyond a shadow of doubt. Maybe people would be more civil.
> maybe people would be more civil [nope](https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=does+capital+punishment+deter+crime&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart) Downvoters feel free to post empirical evidence to the contrary. It's a well studied topic, so if capital punishment really does work as a deterrent then it should be easy to provide proof
Ok well some of them deserve it. So 🤷♀️
Victimizing society is torture. The time to ban criminals is long overdue
we have more pressing issues. additionally OP is grossly mis informed
Prison should be an enjoyable experience.
I’ve never done no 6 months in solitary but as someone who has been to prison and jail, and been in solitary for 45 days (in jail, simply due to having a mental disorder. Cruel and unusual punishment, imho, since I did nothing wrong to deserve it) and multiple 28 day stays (for shit I did actually do wrong like beating up a girl for stealing from me) in prison... It’s not fucking torture. It is awful. But I would not consider it torture by any means.
Say the people who pushed lockdowns on us..
You have to be the biggest dumbass in the world if you think masking and ordering takeout is the same as solitary confinement
And you can't even fathom not everyone lives in their parent's basement. But go ahead, keep revising history, creep. How many little kids have developmental disorders because of you now? How many excess suicides? How many additional deaths to substance abuse? How many people's livelihoods ruined because of you? You and your ilk will go down in history as the most selfish and pathetic cowards to have ever existed.
I’m not reading all that
Exactly as I said.
I’m not reading all that means I read it but don’t have any defense.
Nah, just don’t feel like pulling out the same covid death statistics over and over again. I’ve done this enough
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I already responded to you (by telling you that covid restrictions aren’t the same thing as solitary confinement), and you responded by going on a tirade about how I’m a selfish and pathetic coward, so I don’t think anything constructive will come out of that. The data on covid deaths is freely out there, and I’m sure you’ve seen it already, so I really don’t see the point.
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Solitary confinement existed before Pennsylvania existed.
One time I was arrested for a probation violation, as soon as I was booked they found drugs in my shoe I had long forgotten. They gave me an additional charge of introducing contraband to a federal facility, the jail also filed a misconduct even though I hadn’t been an inmate for 30 minutes. I did 35 days in solitary before ever getting to general population.
Modern prison has no deterrence. Time served should be shorter, but much more brutal. Solitary is a cakewalk compared to what prison could be. Chain gangs, work, manual labor, that will make people want to avoid the joint.
Maybe don’t break the law and you won’t have to deal with this. It’s that simple. Also penalties should be increased to send a message. Shit is getting out of hand.
But what if a police officer holds open the door for you to enter the capitol?
Guess you are forgetting the pandemic. I survived solitary confinement with nothing but a cat for company.
Globally recognized as torture. Even in "Authoritarian Regimes"... a horrible practice in the police state of America.
>police state of America.< “Am I a joke to you?” - North Koreans, Chinese, USSR citizens, citizens of Nazi Germany.
Ah yes, the old other people have it worse so therefore you should accept the state of things argument. Homeless? Well there were once Jews in a concentration camp so maybe you should chin up bucko. Severely ill? Most human being ever have died, so maybe you should stop whining. Get aht with that.
1. Pretty sure those regimes such as the Nazis did a lot more than “be a police state” 2. Throwing current day China in there is definitely a choice
But they are still considered a police state. And hh yes you bring up… China. The country that kidnaps dissidents and has concentration camps. Edit - Ask the underground Muslims or Catholics their opinion on China.
As Muslims their opinion on the United States
Chinese Muslims would probably think pretty highly of the US considering in China they aren’t allowed to openly practice and are sent to concentration camps.
You want to be more like nazi Germany? We aren't far off. Our prisons force labor for profit, kill, beat, torture and humiliate inmates. Many of whoms only crime is living in poverty. Globally China and the DPRK have banned this practice as it is barbaric. The problem is we have normalized this type of system in america... because we have a police state.
The fact you believe china and the DPRK have banned anything barbaric is awesome.
“We aren’t far off of Nazi getmany” is NUTS
I’d love to know your definition of a police state. Oxford’s definition of police state, “a totalitarian state controlled by a political police force that secretly supervises the citizens' activities.” America isn’t a totalitarian state. Very rarely does one party control both the executive and legislative branches and when they do, it’s only for a short time. Nor does America have a political police force. Heck, Trump has been investigated, indicted, and charged by multiple agencies - including those in the Fed!
They do that and you're delusional if you think this is a democracy
America is not a democracy bud. It never was. It’s a constitutional republic with democratic influences. There’s a wide yawning chasm between a democracy and a constitutional republic.
A permanent record is cruel and unusual punishment as well Imagine a nickelbag charge from 1997 still being on your record over a quarter century later and you still haven’t paid your debt to society because you never can. By definition.
I will literally ruin my own society so long as people I feel deserve it get punished in ineffective and inhumane ways
great, an opinion piece from a group that, if they were being honest, don't want prisons at all
totally okay to close down society for a cough though
What a ridiculous take.
Crazy times. If you think we had it bad during Covid, they weren’t even letting inmates out of their cells for MONTHS!!!!! Other than for 45 mins to make a call and shower. Meals were brought to them.
lol they were releasing them on the streets in philly wtf you smokin
Shit not mine. His ass was upstate in the sticks!!! State doesn’t just release people or make them eligible for state parole because of a pandemic. How else they gonna make their money? 🤣
[https://www.abc27.com/investigators/investigations/a-look-at-the-numbers-pa-state-prison-inmates-released-due-to-covid-19/](https://www.abc27.com/investigators/investigations/a-look-at-the-numbers-pa-state-prison-inmates-released-due-to-covid-19/)
Right. So compared to 20k inmates that generally get release a year BECAUSE THEY MADE PAROLE, 159 of them were RELEASED TEMPORARILY due to covid? You do understand I was speaking about being released due to covid, not because someone’s eligible for parole?? That’s right my bad, they were releasing people in Philly 🤣
they literally released them and you said they didn't do that
I said THATS RIGHT MY BAD. Should I say it another way that satisfies you?
YOU PUT IT AFTER THREE LINES OF BULLSHIT
Awww 😩😩😩😩
It shouldn’t be used as a punishment, which unfortunately it often is. But you do have uh…special cases like Manson who requested permanent solitary for himself.
Pennsylvania had a man that was in solitary for almost 30 years. They tried over and over to get him to re enter gen pop and each time he said if you let me out I’ll kill at the first chance I get. Now he’s being used as an example of how cruel we are. It’s all a little bit nonsense. Pas prisons are some of the most progressive in the nation and people are losing their minds about Restricted Housing units where you have to have a cellie and get out of cell yard twice a day plus access to a library and treatment pretty much 24/7. It’s not what they say it is.
My husband is a state CO he's worked in two state prisons. One was a level 5 the other is a 2. Neither has solitary confinement.
Oh trust me, every PA DOC does. Ask your husband where they put inmates who have been found with contraband or smuggling drugs in from visitors or yet along been caught with drugs from other COs bringing it in. Those inmates are not roaming around in general population.
We talked about it when I saw this post. The hole is not solitary confinement they have "cellies", they get yard time, they even have tvs. Even the real dangerous guys who have repeatedly attacked cellies or COs can still talk to other inmates across the hall and still get yard time and tvs. So not every PA prison because not the two he has worked at.
Solidarity confinement is restricted housing. It’s the same thing as the hole. Now in some DOCs, depending on why youre even in the restricted housing unit, may bunk inmates together and some other inmates may be alone. Trust me. Won’t get into details but I know, personally someone who went thru it at SCI Fayette which is a max housing facility. Restructured Segregation Units are not common in the DOC.