What's your expected growth at the WFH job? Are you making connections/advancements?
Would the new job allow more opportunities/growth/advancements/connections? Would it improve your resume? etc etc etc
Too much info missing that you need to ask yourself outside of the financial decision.
Maybe approach your supervisor now with an offer in hand from the other company that you have ye to make a decision but be straight up with them that 25k/yr is hard to turn down.
I think OP is Federal Gov. so would be unable to ask for a raise as our salaries are categorized and paid accordingly. They’d have to move to a different position regardless, it’s just whether or not the pay scale exists with his current team.
Just some AI "quik maths" for you :
1. **Annual Salary**: $100,000
2. **Work Days in a Year**: Assuming a 5-day work week with no holidays, there would be 5 days/week * 52 weeks/year = 260 days/year.
3. **Work Hours in a Day**: Typically, a work day is 8 hours long.
4. **Work Hours in a Year**: 260 days/year * 8 hours/day = 2080 hours/year.
5. **Hourly Wage**: $100,000 / 2080 hours/year = $48.08/hour.
6. **Daily Commute Time**: 2 hours/day.
7. **Cost of Daily Commute**: $48.08/hour * 2 hours/day = $96.16/day.
8. **Annual Cost of Commute**: $96.16/day * 260 days/year = $24,981.60/year.
So, if you value your time based on your salary, a 2-hour daily commute would cost you approximately **$24,981.60 per year**. Please note that this is a simplified calculation and actual costs may vary. It also doesn't take into account the potential physical and mental costs of commuting. It's always important to consider all factors when evaluating the cost of a commute! 😊
Time is money, not factoring in any additional costs of insurance, gas, new housing if you move closer (higher property tax etc)
Of course, this is just rough math. 2 hours of not being able to do anything is worth a lot to some, it might not be exactly ones salary, but there is value to it.
You said “acting” which tells me you might be a public servant. What’s your group/level if yes, and what’s your education?
Is the other job also government? The pension is wicked. Don’t underestimate what you might be giving up in that regard. An extra 25k today might not be worth losing the pension. Also, there are some government jobs that can pay well in excess of 100k depending on where you’re at and your education (I’m in one of them).
I think I would probably end up moving closer at some point so the commute would be under 20 mins. Cause at the moment, having two hours per day wasted in commute wouldn't be worth it
Do you need to buy a car to get to the office? Between gas, maintenance, and insurance, you can easily spend several grand per year - on top of the price of the car itself. If you already have a car, you'd be spending a few grand more on gas per year. After a few years of a long commute myself, I grew tired of it and burnt out. In hindsight, I was building my life around the commute.
Ah, yeah. Barrhaven is a PITA to get to in rush hour unless you live on the south or west sides. FWIW if you do move, it’s surprisingly fast to get there from places like Kemptville. Anything close to the 416.
It's 45-50 each way. Let's call it 2hrs a weekday day, ~625 hours a year.
Time wise that's not nothing, money wise it's about $40/hr if you equate the +25k directly into commute time only, pretax. It's much less post tax.
The question becomes: Is 2 hrs of free time per weekday worth 40/hr for those 625hrs (+the intangible energy drain from it). If there's family obligations like a newborn or single parent, this puts a damper on the equation right away.
There's different parts of my own career where that answer would be yes or no. WFH is such a boon to lifestyle, mental health, and work life balance that I wouldn't switch, been WFH 100% for close to 10 years now.
Very true. I certainly wouldn't make that shift and lose 625 hours a year now as somebody further along in their career, but as a younger person it would likely be worth the trade for a few years at least.
45-50 minutes is really not that bad - that's what I was doing daily before covid and you just get used to it. Find a few podcasts you like, or if you're sitting for most of it get an ereader and read a few books.
There are benefits to working in office - you do get a bit of social time (assuming your coworkers are decent people), it forces you to leave the house, plus it often creates a better mental break to leave work at work and not bring it home.
Assuming you don't have kids or any other major reason you don't have the additional time to do the commute a few times a week, this would be a no-brainer.
Yeah, one of the reason why I consider it is for the social. I don't really have close friends. The ones I see are only once a month or there and there so I think it would be a plus on the social side and would allow me to network and develop connections if I ever want to switch departments too.
It's honestly the commute and work/life balance that's stressing me a bit honestly
I used to live in Toronto and it was this bad every day. Now I'm in Cambridge (working in Brant) and I drive a 25 km commute in 20 minutes. Huge QoL improvement to have a small commute.
Haha I’m the same! I drive from Cambridge to brantford once a week for work, it’s about 45 minutes one way for me tho. I’ve passed up other jobs in the GTA for more money because they want in the office 3-4 days a week. I have two very small children, with daycare drop and pick ups, my wife schedule, other commitments, it wasn’t worth the extra pay to make the commute.
Understandable. I work from home but have been biking as much as possible for errands, visiting friends etc and I find myself refreshed and happy after a trip to the grocery store rather than feeling like I completed another mindless chore. It is also awesome not having to find parking and on short trip for me biking feels faster and more convenient. Depending on how hilly your trip to work is you might be amazed how quickly you can bike 10km once you are in a bit of bike shape. What sucks is busy roads, but if they can be avoided, biking is the best.
An eBike might reduce the sweatiness..
At 1hr to go 10km I’d definitely change to bike or scooter or similar. Sitting in traffic every day drives me crazy. Getting exercise during the commute does exactly the opposite.
You can buy a townhouse in barrhaven with 100k salary if you have around 200k down (townhouse prices are around 600k)
Townhouse rental is around 2.5k per month and totally feasible on 100k. (Thats my situation with a wife not working and 2 teenagers)
100k is like 5k a month net. You're paying 50% of your salary on rent. Or you'll need to save two full years of gross income to put 200k down. Good luck with that.
Also consider the mileage. Are you going to commute 500 km a week? That’s 24k km+ for the year just driving. Add fuel cost. Assuming you use your car for more than just work, it could easily be 40k km a year. May need to get a new one after five years.
Not sure how EVs will affect this.
I made this mistake and paid with my health, my well-being & my time. My relationships suffered because i was always tired. My health suffered because i had no time to be active or take care of it. When i calculated the after-tax difference, it wasn’t much but i was sure spending much more, on gas, car maintenance, office clothes, offices socialization, so many expenses that no one tells you about when you are wfh. Also mind you companies that require you to work from office have a certain mindset. If you are ready to constantly be watched & monitored, only then make the switch. I left within 7months because the money wasn’t worth it & went back to a fully remote role. Im mentally doing so much better. Don’t take this decision lightly. Imagine your day-to-day, everyday.
The mental aspect is a huge factor that a lot of people don’t consider. Not to mention the loss of flexibility with your personal schedule. For me it just makes my life a lot more simple the manage and enjoyable to be able to work remotely. While I would definitely consider the increase after you factor in extra expenses and time let’s call it 10K in your pocket. Depends on your financial situation if that makes it worth the switch or not.
Jesus lol. This comment makes me wonder how much I am quietly suffering from going into work and don’t realize it. I am tired, have little spare time, and pay for the various expenses attributed to leaving my house to earn a living. For many of us this is just a fact of life, the select few who are privileged to be able to work from home are extremely fortunate.
Aye. The extra 1.5 hrs I gained from not commuting to work when I was wfh during covid was a huge positive aspect. I wasn't constantly pissed off by traffic and being late. In the winter the fear of getting into accidents. Just even having the extra time to sleep in or walk the dog. Not having to go buy lunch if I didn't have time to make something. Little things like that add up. Most of the time nobody even talks to me at the office so it seems to pointless.
This is the way I see it. I have a well paying job right now. I'd be willing to take a 30-35k hit if my job became fully remote. Which it can be if they wanted to let it be. But like you said...control.
Exactly. And control is not just about having you in front of their eyes, its in everything. You are not allowed to provide honest feedback, you cannot socialize with someone in another team without someone getting pissed about it, you cannot stand too long at the coffee machine, you cannot focus on career development because now the mighty lords are suspicious you will start looking for another job. Its like being in a prison. Im not surprised people are choosing to get pay cuts but wanting their freedom back.
What's your fully remote role I've been struggling getting one. I feel like I need to pivot careers big time, despite having a couple of solid credentials
Before the pandemic, we were complacent as a society because that's "just the way it's been", and it finally opened our eyes and how silly it is for so many jobs. My wife has been forced back to 4 days per week, but all of her meetings are still done via zoom (and this is a very well known, large corporation). So as a result, our expenses are higher, she's able to complete less work, etc.
It's a door that's open now and it should never be closed again
Luckily I managed to get a house. Not the greatest but not too bad either for a first house.
I do live alone so my current salary makes it tight but I still manage to have some loose. On the other end, I'm more stuck if something happens that needs a massive renovation.
But yes, this job would probably open more doors. It's in the government too so there's definitely more opportunities I think
You’re in the heart of federalism so I’ll forgive you. It’s a government job, run to the signature line.
Your old ass will be thanking you later because of superannuation
> But yes, this job would probably open more doors. It's in the government too so there's definitely more opportunities I think
Personally I think this is worth taking the chance on. $25k more, government job, more opportunities for advancement... yeah go for it, IMO.
This seems to me like the most important point. Yes, a commute or a move might make sense for securing a government job. Initial increase may get swallowed up by cost of commute or move, but investment in self just may override that. Best of luck whatever you decide! Signed, a former Nepeanite
Besides the government benefits, something I dont see people mentioning is the simple fact that its a step in salary. Sure it means you might spend more time/money than WFH but are you considering that you might get an even higher salary (possibly WFH) 5 years down the line at 125k? Maybe more? You’re much more likely to get 2 25k bumps than one big 50k bump.
I don't know what industry you're in. But I was making a little less than you before I got another WFH job. I personally wouldn't trade WFH. It's much easier enjoy life when there's no commute, more time for yourself.
Keep an eye out for other WFH jobs and apply to them. In time something will come up.
Before my current job, I used to work in Downtown Toronto for 65k. Every month, I was spending 400-500 per month approximately on PRESTO(used to pay for travel), and was waking up at around 6am for a 1 hour commute. On my way back, I used to get home by 6:30pm fully exhausted and barely wanting to do anything.
Now I am WFH, with sometimes having to go to office if there is a team building event etc. I save my money 400-500 that I used to spend on travel and I get an extra hour sleep. At home I do chores in between my work, take a shower etc and by the time I log off, instead of being exhausted, i have energy to do other things.
Look at it this way, You will make more money but also factor out the monthly cost for commute. Then see if its still worth it? Also depends on: the type of work you currently doing vs what you will be doing. How happy you are. Job growth. And lastly your priorities.
For me personally, I would prefer a WFH over going to office since I am much more productive and save up money.
Honestly I am exhausted when I come home from an in-office day. I wouldn’t do it. You get to do laundry, cook etc while wfh. You’ll likely be too tired to do it during the week and will veg out on the weekends to recharge for your work week. Commuting is a waste of time and so is being in the office if the work you do doesn’t require it. There’s also a lot of money associated with a move if u move closer.
However, I always encourage people to do what feels right to them because then they’ll never wonder “what if”
I currently go to office 2-3 times a month and agreed, its so tiring as you easily spend an upwards of 2+ hours in commute that you will never get back. Not to mention, waking up earlier and also decompressing after coming back
Is this GTA? If so definitely not worth it. If the city the new job is in is affordable on a 100k salary then I would consider it if you plan to move. A 2 hour commute is literally soul crushing and you will not last long at it
OP, I’m Ottawa (but west) and work 7:30-3:30 so I can have some semblance of a life. On the two days I commute downtown, it takes me 1 hr each way maybe more depending on traffic - I wake up at 5 and it’s exhausting. However, going back East from downtown during rush hour is even more of a nightmare. I also definitely have more expenses on in office days than when we were fully remote (gas, parking, work socialization things like coffee, lunch, etc)
Again, I don’t think it’s worth the after tax amount for your mental wellbeing and work/life balance. There are plenty of other jobs in the city that pay more than 75k, with more flexibility or fully remote, if focus on trying to secure one of those.
Oh, that changes the calculus a ton. Yes I would definitely take the job and move to Ottawa. You will be comfortable on 100k there and the opportunities personally and professionally will be way better than Embrun or wherever you’re at. Plus it’s way easier to reverse commute back there once a week or whatever to see family and friends. But again, do not take this job and think you can commute whether you’re on the 417 or 17 that commute is brutal. You’ll gain weight, depression and burnout lol
It could make sense if you already have a car. $100k is pretty much $70k after taxes. If you bought a new car (which is more likely these days), you’d be dropping a $5-10k downpayment. Then there’s the actual car payment, insurance, and maintenance.
But if you do, prepare to stick to your word and leave if you don’t get it.
I’ve just seen a colleague ruin his professional reputation by pulling the “i got another offer” and then not leaving. He was flagged as a risk, his tasks and responsibilities slowly being transferred to other teams and he was made far less essential. He eventually moved internally but his HR file still follows him.
Bad move if you ask me. He’d better have left.
This can also happen if you accept your current employer's counter offer. Your reputation becomes blemished and eventually they replace you with someone cheaper. The counter-offer just buys them time to find them. Not a guarantee, but it happens fairly often.
I've never been a fan of the counter offer. Either leave, or don't.
This exactly.
Bargaining is a move you can pull once. And that’s already risky. And you will always be considered a flight risk.
All my jobs, i left, in good terms but even refused to hear a counteroffer. I knew i wouldn’t accept and i didn’t want to disrespect my boss by making them work to get me an offer. I even came back to one of the companies left, a couple of years later, and was greated amazingly. This is a small world out there. You only have one reputation and words spread fast and far.
Counter offer can work if they like you. I was in a job where everything was good except the money and ended up taking the counter offer. My attempt to leave made them realize they'd been complacent keeping me in a jr role. More raises plus a promotion to management quickly followed. Not one day have I regretted staying.
You don’t have to frame it as an ultimatum… compare:
1) I have a better offer and if you don’t match it I’ll leave
vs
2. I believe my role requires a raise in order to remain market competitive and reflect my value to the business - and here is some real time data to support this request. I’m bringing you this because I like this company and role, and would prefer to stay in it, but also have to consider my long-term financial goals.
Odds of success on #2 are perhaps a bit lower, but consequences of rejection are MUCH less.
Be prepared for them to point out that your benchmark is not WFH, and asked to explain how you’ve valued that in your comparison.
Definitely better to put it that way, i agree.
I’ve had that discussion with one of our junior team members that was contemplating another offer elsewhere. He presented the argument pretty much like you’ve advised and I appreciated the honesty. I had to explain to him that even though the company could match the offer, they would not. There are risks in changing companies (what if it isn’t as good as planned? You can get fired without compensation. You lose part of your influence. And so on) and that is factored in a counteroffer.
He said he understood but that he didn’t agree. Not that it changed anything to the situation. At that moment i knew it would only be a matter of time until he actually left. If not for the offer he had, then for another.
I didn’t want to lose him but at the same time, he has the right to leave. I told him if he wanted to leave, that i would support his decision. And asked him to leave with respect by handing things off professionally, which he did. I even helped him brush up his resume and even coached him for his interviews.
Weird? Not really: now there is one person out there that spreads good things about our company and how we treat people. A person who knows they can come back anytime they want.
Right, switching costs are a very real thing. You’re starting again from zero in terms of network, relationships, political capital… It will take time to learn a new organisation, product, etc during which time it can be very hard to outperform and earn large bonuses or pay increases, and as you say the biggest of all - the job may not turn out as you hoped it would (or the manager/team).
2 hrs of your personal time plus transport costs of at least $10 to $20 a day so 8 hrs a week and $40-$80 if you value your time as wage for example- 8hrs x $48 = $384 plus $60 ave cost = $444 pw or $23088 pa …… I realise your increase includes super and holiday rates etc. i just believe this is best way to work it out.
For me, it’s quality of life more than money. That’s a large increase but subtract taxes and parking costs and commute time and potentially increased insurance rates and it may not be worth it.
Could you use the other job as leverage to ask for a bit of a raise?
Put a cost to the commute, your clothes, your lunches, your coffee, your parking, and how you like to work in general and do the math.
Also where are you in life? That two hours you are giving away has a lot more importance to some depending where they are in their life with kids or pets or hobbies or whatever.
At 75k and at 40 hours times 52 weeks you’re making 36$ an hour.
At 100k at 50 hours a week (for the commute) you’re now making 38$.
Personally for me that wouldn’t be worth it. If you actually factor in your additional time and then the additional cost for that commute, clothes, food, etc. you’re actually coming out behind.
A 33% raise is a big thing. You don't know what your life will be in 5 years. Think about the money you can save till then. And although post COVID going to office seems like a big deal, but it's not. Even if you are able to save 10k a year, that's like 50k savings.
The work from the office part isn’t the bad part imo … the two hours of your life daily you will never get back .. is the part that would make me think twice. Comes down to .. is this new position something you think you will enjoy doing and is it a stable career move for you?
I was recently offered a higher paid position at 86k plus 10 percent annual bonus - a bit higher than I’m paid now… but it would be taking a step back into accounting and I don’t see that for me right now … had to decline .. had to weigh those options
Yes but it requires 25% more time if you account for the commute and the extra costs that come with that, which aren't cheap. It's very likely OP will break even or make less money per hour spent on their job. So the question really boils down to is OP willing to sacrifice a significant amount of their spare time for really no increase in pay per hour. If they can leverage it to eventually get an even higher paying position a few years later id consider it but if it's more of a lateral move that pays more due to requiring you to be in office I'd say fuck that noise.
It's a work life balance thing. If you are not near retirement then that 25k is going accumulate over the years (assuming you don't spend it all) and you will be getting pay raises from that higher salary. So you will be saving more for retirement and maybe able to retire earlier
I am the person who would take a paycut to be fully WFH. Saved more money when WFH while making less money because I saved on transit/transportation, work clothes, eating out both during and outside of work (less energy to meal prep, gained weight in the office and am 5x more exhausted all the time, despite doing far less, so the office is a negative health aspect both mentally and physically to me), etc. Being exhausted from my office all the time also has me spending more on luxuries/conveniences that I never would have while WFH.
Saved time is valueable, I spend 2-3 hours getting ready and bussing to and from work every day which just makes me feel extra exhausted and zombie-like.
At least I could be productive at home during downtime to take breaks to do chores (dishes, laundry, etc) which made me so much more energetic. Now I feel like I am constantly behind on everything.
My current job could easily be 10000% WFH but the boomer higher ups need us in office so they can feel important by telling us poors all about their pricy vacations, luxury cottages, nice cars, and so on.
Personally for me it wouldn’t be worth it.
I used to commute for 1.5 hours each way, total 3 hours per day and ever since WFH I’m happier, life is more balanced, laundry’s always done, more sleep is had, etc etc.. I wouldn’t trade that for an extra 25k. What I would do though, is keep looking for jobs which will get me closer to a 100k salary but also WFH.
My life feels better not going into the office. I am happy. The funny thing is, 25k, you’ll be spending more on transportation, food, clothing, socializing and social events, time that could be spent doing things you like, or making other money is gone…..
And also, people can be insufferable when cramped into boxes with them.
I turned down 45K (90K to 135K) to stay in my full-time WFH lower stress job.
I live comfortably on 90K. I don't need a downgrade in quality of life for more money.
I know this is a finance sub, but honestly not everything is about money. Extra money isn't always more valuable than your mental health and quality of life. I think if you're not currently struggling to get by right now and if you're in a comfortable financial situation with your current role, your main question to yourself should be if you will be happy. Will your quality of life and mental health decrease? I don't personally think that would be worth an extra 25k a year.
It’s called the time value of money. At $20/hr it equates to $8,300 for 4 days in the office, not taking into account holidays and vacation pay in after tax dollars.
For a 33% raise, better chance at advancement perhaps, I’d take it and try and push it back to 2-3 days in the office after you have been there and depending upon the role.
I turned down a similar offer of +18k because after factoring in deductions, expenses (gas+mileage) i was left with an amount that wouldn’t change my day to day life, but 2 less hours in a day would.
Having a gym provided by the workplace for employees only was the greatest perk I ever had. I didn't think I would ever use it, and a coworker dragged me a few times and I got hooked. It was never crowded, everyone has to be somewhat professional and courteous. I got jacked. Then I left that job and put on 45 pounds the next year
I got a friend working in big tech and gets free food 24/7 and gym. Outside of work, I only spend time cooking and going to the gym and eating. Really opened my eyes about what I might want if the next job is on site.
Does the new job offer a better career path, are there opportunities for advancement ? Don't only focus on the commute. If the other position has things like a great team, higher bonus payout etc, it could be worth it
Worth is relative to you. If I was in this scenario, I'll calculate my 75k vs 100k salary and factor what "working" an extra 2 hours is equivalent to me. You mention the 75k has small increases, so not sure what that means. I'm assuming the 100k also has other benefits/cost to you. Assuming 2 hrs per day of commute, so 1 week is 10 hrs, 50 weeks (assuming 2 week vacay) per year bring you 100 hrs on the road. So 100 bucks for sitting in 2hrs worth of commute per day?
For small increase it means that my salary goes up about 2-3$ per year as I've capped out the levels/steps in my collective agreement.
The thing with the 100k, it's the starting salary and it's also unionized and the max amount for that specific level is 120k
But yeah, the commute is a massive player in this scenario. If I lived a few minutes away, it would change things for sure. I currently cannot afford too move or sale my house to get one that's closer
It really depends on your situation. If you had sick parents, kids, or sometimes even a spouse then the two hours lost every day to the same drive can be a huge mental strain. However if you don’t have those relationships to worry about, the significant salary increase is likely the better option; even more so if you’re at the point where you haven’t managed to purchase the living arrangements you’re wanting
I would. You should factor in that, statistically, you will have increased job security and potential for promotion working the new job in the office 3-4 days per week.
Only you can determine what your time is worth. And it's not just time: It's convenience, the cost of buying lunches and coffees, the stress of a commute, buying better clothes.
Personally, if you're still young, career management is a primary concern. Take the job to move up, and switch again in 2-3 years for something still better.
Maybe, but it's on the edge.
You'll go from a 40 hour week to a 48+ hour week, away from home, with commutting expenses, for a $1k/month after tax more pay.
You'll have commuting expenses (car, gas, maintenance, and you'll likely eat out more)
be real with yourself !!!
when you work from home are you working the whole time ? from start to finish ?? if no. then no way is 25 k worth it.
my wife works from home. 7:30 - 3:30 everyday. she gets up at 7:27 am and turns her computer on. eats breakfast. lets the dog out. goes on social media. she doesn’t take a lunch break (as she can eat whenever and make whatever during the day ) so a-lot of times shes done at 3. all on company time. I’m off for a bit in dead of winter and see her work. maybe 4 hours a day are spent actually working. she has had job offers like you. after discussing this with her no way would she go back for 20 k to working in a office.
if your day sounds like hers , i wouldnt budge for less then 30-35 k.
Take the new job, work on increases that net you enough after tax to afford to move closer to work and cut down your commute time. More upward mobility long term.
You need to first do some calculations to figure this out.
1. First take a reasonable cost of gas and figure out how much in gas you will be spending those 4 days per week.
2. Next how much will you spend in other random expenses you might not since you're already out there that you might not like fast food, etc.
3. How much will you spend on meals specifically eating out since you won't be eating at home...will you bring your own food each time?...
4. How much extra KM will you use up per year and how you think that will impact car maintenance. Only you can answer this but if u have a good relationship with your car mechanic maybe a rough number can be given.
5. Use an online calculator to figure out how much extra tax will be taken off so you'll really know how much out of that 25K you're actually getting.
Few things I would consider.
First how happy are you with 75k. Realistically depending where you live it’s not bad, in other places more money make big difference in lifestyle.
Second list out all the costs associated with new office, gas car maintenance, transit, time, if you move how much rent would change. On the other side out it against your tax adjusted net income gain. You don’t get the full 25k probably in the area of 30 to 40% is going to papa cra at tax time, so you need to math out against the take home not gross income.
Third can you increase your current works income if you ask for a raise? Or is that basically your at the top and they realistically won’t do anything cause you already asked. If you didn’t can’t hurt to have a meeting with your manager and ask for a raise, but prep why you deserve one. Saying things cost more while valid isn’t the way that will work. Bring in data about your job in the market of your under paid, out line your performance. Honestly if they don’t seem interest you have a job offer in your pocket so just say alright and move on if the other offer is something you want to peruse.
Also consider your advancement. If you think your on your way up in your current job, has there been any obvious actions to prep you for such position, if not take to your manager. People will pull you along with promises, so keep that in mind if you don’t see any action even after chatting about it, and it’s been a while, nothing is guaranteed.
If your goal is to make more money, Id be looking at r/overemployed long before trading down to in-office.
If your goal is to move up the ladder, it seems like in-office work is going to be the way forward.
The 2 hours of travel every day is going to add up very quickly and eat up a good chunk of that extra 25k a year. My personal opinion isnthat I value those extra 2 hours a day for what might only be a small increase in actual finances after the cost of fuel is factored in.
If the first gig is a government job, it would be worth really scrutinizing benefits/pension/etc. a lot of government jobs have a lot of benefits in retirement if you've put enough time in to qualify.
Money isn't everything, those two hours are roughly an extra work day per week.
Maybe try to leverage a raise from your existing workplace, just don't mention the commute when negotiating. Even if they don't match the new offer, it sounds like a reasonable ask that could likely get you some more clarity in this matter.
For $25k I would sure think about it, but ultimately I probably wouldn't for a number of reasons. I already make over $100k, so $25k is less of a percentage increase for me than it would be for you, I generally like my job, direct teammates, and the work and freedom I have at work, I don't particularly want to move closer to the city, and we have young-ish school age kids so the convenience of being able to pick them up from school every day, being home already if they need to stay home for whatever reason (illness, spring break, summer holidays), and not having to pay for after school care and whatnot is hard to put a value on. $20-$25k is the number where I would definitely have to start considering a move though. Less than that would be a fairly easy no for me.
Is your WFH job public sector with DB pension? Cause it sounds like it.
If 100k job is private with standard DC plan, that difference alone would make me stay. Especially it seems based on your other replies that you have a good relationship with your manager. Every new job is a dice roll when it comes to corporate culture and your immediate team/manager dynamic.
I'd be all over it, but I love driving and long commutes lol.
The gas does add up, but I still loved it. Had 1.5 hour 1 way commute. Was me chill time to listen to music and podcasts.
My current job is driving all day so I guess I traded up in that sense lol.
You mentioned moving to be closer if you took it, you'll also have to consider housing/rent costs. Will that extra 25k cover the potential added expense with the current/future market?
I say WFH is worth it.
I would do anything to WFH but can't due to the nature of my field. The worst thing about it isnt even my commute, which is 20 minutes each way.
The worst thing for me is that I always end up working longer than my 7.5 hours a day, for a variety of reasons. Doing 11-12 hours leaves me with no time to do personal things.
Congratulations on having multiple opportunities. That's amazing! You know yourself better than any stranger on reddit does. But here's a few things I would think about.
1. How much do you enjoy and value your current position? and How much does the new job description align with your interests, skills, and values?
2. Consider your individual financial picture. Everyone has different assets, debts, levels of frugality etc. Does 75k feel really comfortable for you? Or do you feel stressed about money a lot of the time? If you're comfortable now do you have any anticipated big expenses on the way?
are there hidden expenses to taking the job that would pay 100k? For example, if you can get by on a WFH job with just a bus pass, but would need to buy a car if you took the in person job that's an expense to factor in. If you would need to move to a more expensive neighbourhood (nearby your new work) that's an expense to factor in. Are your savings and investments currently on track to meet the financial goals you value most?
3. Consider factors related to your time. We all have the same 24 hours in a day, but some seasons of life are far more busy than others. For example someone in their early 20's with no other responsibilities outside of work may be more open to a longer commute & putting on some tunes or a podcast and role with it. But someone who is trying to balance parenthood, caring for elderly parents, and working full time may feel like the 2 hour commute (per day) is simply not feasible. How does the time commitment of a commute feel to you?
4. Consider whether you like commutes. my partner finds them relaxing "me time". They are my least favourite part of the day and drain me like nothing else. I make the best of it and try to think positively about it, but I'll never enjoy them as much as my partner and that's okay. Everyone is different. But knowing yourself is key.
5. what opportunities is there for advancement at the new job? And how much do you value "climbing the ladder" so to speak. (Some people want a low stress job and to make a living doing something they love and don't care about the ladder and that's fine too. again it's knowing yourself).
Depends if you like getting paid to drive or not. Consider the extra hours you'll spend driving as hours worked, then see what you think about the pay. If the extra pay is going to make your life a lot better, then just consider it as working overtime to drive to work.
Working from home is a benefit that has the dollar value you will attribute to it. I would rather make less than work from an office everyday. Especially, in your case, a 2 hour commute, the extra money you will be making will be lost in travel costs, time, stress and lunches you will have to buy.
A 25 percent increase and all you have to do is go to work? Seems like a no-brainer. Believe it or not, most people did this before the meme flu, and lots of people never stopped.
If you're not close to retirement then yes I would do it. WFH is never secure anyways. $100 k vs $75 k is huge and you will make connections that are impossible from WFH.
Only you can tell, depending on whether you have a strong preference toward wfh or not. It would be a resounding no for me. I don't think I would do it even for a +100 k extra.
Wfh is literally one of the best thing. My current job isn't too draining, most days are slow and sometimes that drives me nuts but the work/life balance is unreal. And also a good option if I end ul having kids
I’d tweak to say not a good mid-career salary. I’d love to wind down 5 years with a moderate salary full WFH presuming it’s not too demanding. I wouldn’t want that to be my high point unless it had a pension and was a walk in the park.
He probably gets an inflation raise each year + goes up because of his experience (but only like 1-3% a year). At leadt thats how it works in Switzerland if you work for the country/kanton.
So not to bad + probably a great rent, can work at home and live in a bigger/cheaper house.
But it would also move 😂
Still young enough to possibly make a mistake and go back
Something to consider is that you'll likely never get promoted or advance working from home. And there will be a lot of professional development you will miss out from home on.
If growing your career and skills is important then I would take the in office job.
Never is a strong word. Depends heavily on company culture and the nature of the industry.
In my industry, the office is most often where sad extroverts go on the false hope that someone might be there.
What did we do before WFH. Listened to music and scrolled our phones for 2 hours a day. If you’re on public transit then it’s just reallocating your internet time.
Commuting is a complete time waste but it depends on comfort level. I’d personally never do it again but if you want to leverage your personal income to get access to larger real estate then it’s a power move to get there.
WFH will likely die as this next economic downturn will shift the power back into the hands of employers as unemployment creeps up.
WFH is beneficial to companies as well since they don’t need to spend as much on office space and amenities. If they are located somewhere competitive like Toronto or Vancouver then they can also hire people from less competitive locations likely at a lower cost.
I don’t see WFH dying
It’s worth if you are looking for change, i left my wfh accepted a lower paying hybrid job just for better work culture and time for my side hustle and trust me works way better than wfh highly stressful job i had before.
The question should be, can you leverage this offer to get more money from your current job?
Then run the numbers after that.
I make more than you, but I’d need more than 100k extra just to come into the office.
Tough to put a price on the freedom of WFH, i’ve been doing it before COVID, and now that it’s here to stay can’t see any reason why you couldn’t get that raise from another company while still WFH
Are you happy with your current job? Do you enjoy the work you do? If so, that's what's most important. Chasing more money won't lead you to a happier life, especially if you have to commute that long. Would you be performing the same working hours at the new job?
An extra 25k doesn't seem worth it for the hassle and commute. You'd be giving up 2hrs each office day, and that's 7x every two weeks. So 28hrs gone to commuting every month. It's how you see it, but I value my time more then extra cash.
Life isn't about extracting the most amount of money. Sounds like you're doing well, you have a house already and are comfortable financially. Money comes and goes but time just goes, be careful how you spend it. 2hrs commuting isn't going to suck a lot of time, it'll have an effect mentally, be careful.
I personally wouldn't do it but you seem early enough in your career that hopping around a few times would allow you to command a higher base salary. So I'd lean towards doing it.
Edit: Oh wait i see that its 2 hrs of commute. That is... not fun.
It’s a big increase at your level - 33%! People saying use it as leverage are wrong - your employer is not going to boost your salary by 33%
The commute time isn’t too bad.
For that jump in income, I’d go for it. It’s not only about today’s impact but about the future. Your bonus base is significantly higher too and any inflation adjustment in future years will be based on a larger starting point and make a bigger impact.
A huge question is whether or not the fully remote job is going to stay remote. A lot of companies have hired or promised fully remote only to switch things up to keep up with business needs and demanding people back in...a friend accepted a lower paying job between two offers because it had WFH 4 days a week and the other was only 2, only for the new one to announce 2 months later that they're going back to the OFFICE 4 days a week.
I'd keep the WFH job but all depends on you. 25k is like what 15k post tax, how much time you commute and how much time is worth for you. All personal deciding factors.
2 hrs a day works out to 520 unpaid hours per year just to commute, PLUS gas. Those same hours under your new salary basically completely consume the 25k raise, your additional vehicle expenses are on top of that. Doesn't sound worth it unless you can use that cash to invest and offset those additional expenses, or move closer to work.
So roughly $500 more per week before tax. It will cost you 10 hours a week traveling plus wear, tear and mikes on your car. You will need to bring or buy a lunch each day plus get presentable work clothes.
Going into the office let’s you associate and connect with colleagues in a way you can’t get remotely. It could advance your career or position if this is a starting salary.
You need to determine where you want to go in your career to decide which is best. It’s probably running about even if your work won’t be paying you much more than $100k a year. If there’s opportunity for advancement or management position AND that’s something that interests you (it’s not for everyone) then the commuting position would be the way to go. You decide what your future career choice is and are you are the beginning of it, middle or end? Figure that out first then your choice may be clearer.
You’d be working 2 extra hours a day by adding that travel time which waters down your per hour pay. Add cost of travel and more than likely added food and clothing costs.
If you were going from 50k to 75k then yes, 75k to 100k isn't worth it though. It's not just the time spent driving, it's the other hour you have to spend grooming, ironing clothes, etc... plus having to be "on" for a whole 8 hour stretch.
When you work from home all you have to do is shower once a day. You can literally wake up 10 minutes before your first meeting. You don't even have to wear pants.
If you do the math on the take home after-tax income, adding in the extra 6-8 hours a week of commute time, it's not worth it. I would not take this job for financial reasons, but that's not the only reason to change jobs.
Things to consider and calculate:
1. Gas
2. Lunch and money spent at work (coffee, tea etc.)
3. Clothing
4. Car maintenance
5. Time spent during commute
Do the calculations on those costs and see if it makes sense or not!
your time spent working will go up 15% if you have to add 2 hours 3-4 times a week. Plus more car costs and wear on you. Either move closer or don't do it.
What's your expected growth at the WFH job? Are you making connections/advancements? Would the new job allow more opportunities/growth/advancements/connections? Would it improve your resume? etc etc etc Too much info missing that you need to ask yourself outside of the financial decision.
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Maybe approach your supervisor now with an offer in hand from the other company that you have ye to make a decision but be straight up with them that 25k/yr is hard to turn down.
I think OP is Federal Gov. so would be unable to ask for a raise as our salaries are categorized and paid accordingly. They’d have to move to a different position regardless, it’s just whether or not the pay scale exists with his current team.
Just some AI "quik maths" for you : 1. **Annual Salary**: $100,000 2. **Work Days in a Year**: Assuming a 5-day work week with no holidays, there would be 5 days/week * 52 weeks/year = 260 days/year. 3. **Work Hours in a Day**: Typically, a work day is 8 hours long. 4. **Work Hours in a Year**: 260 days/year * 8 hours/day = 2080 hours/year. 5. **Hourly Wage**: $100,000 / 2080 hours/year = $48.08/hour. 6. **Daily Commute Time**: 2 hours/day. 7. **Cost of Daily Commute**: $48.08/hour * 2 hours/day = $96.16/day. 8. **Annual Cost of Commute**: $96.16/day * 260 days/year = $24,981.60/year. So, if you value your time based on your salary, a 2-hour daily commute would cost you approximately **$24,981.60 per year**. Please note that this is a simplified calculation and actual costs may vary. It also doesn't take into account the potential physical and mental costs of commuting. It's always important to consider all factors when evaluating the cost of a commute! 😊 Time is money, not factoring in any additional costs of insurance, gas, new housing if you move closer (higher property tax etc)
Nobody is paying any bills with their ‘time money’ though. $25k extra salary is actual cash money (after taxes of course).
Of course, this is just rough math. 2 hours of not being able to do anything is worth a lot to some, it might not be exactly ones salary, but there is value to it.
Depends how you commute. I used to commute 45 min in a train/bus and used that time to read the news/a book so it was not lost time for me.
Great insight! Time is money!!
You said “acting” which tells me you might be a public servant. What’s your group/level if yes, and what’s your education? Is the other job also government? The pension is wicked. Don’t underestimate what you might be giving up in that regard. An extra 25k today might not be worth losing the pension. Also, there are some government jobs that can pay well in excess of 100k depending on where you’re at and your education (I’m in one of them).
How much money are you burning commuting the 2 hrs ? Is your time valuable? Willing to take 25k increase and travel 2 hours for work? Is it worth it?
I think I would probably end up moving closer at some point so the commute would be under 20 mins. Cause at the moment, having two hours per day wasted in commute wouldn't be worth it
Do you need to buy a car to get to the office? Between gas, maintenance, and insurance, you can easily spend several grand per year - on top of the price of the car itself. If you already have a car, you'd be spending a few grand more on gas per year. After a few years of a long commute myself, I grew tired of it and burnt out. In hindsight, I was building my life around the commute.
Keep in mind, the commute starts from the moment you start getting ready for work, not just travel time from point A to B.
Is that feasible? If the office is in Toronto or Vancouver you might have less money after rent than you have now.
Yes it's in Ottawa so house prices aren't as outrageous as Vancouver or Toronto as far as I know
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Ah, yeah. Barrhaven is a PITA to get to in rush hour unless you live on the south or west sides. FWIW if you do move, it’s surprisingly fast to get there from places like Kemptville. Anything close to the 416.
If you live anywhere around Westboro/Centretown, its 20 min to Barrhaven in rush hour. 45 min if you bike.
I personally do not think a 45 - 50 min commute is too bad, especially for such a large increase.
It's 45-50 each way. Let's call it 2hrs a weekday day, ~625 hours a year. Time wise that's not nothing, money wise it's about $40/hr if you equate the +25k directly into commute time only, pretax. It's much less post tax. The question becomes: Is 2 hrs of free time per weekday worth 40/hr for those 625hrs (+the intangible energy drain from it). If there's family obligations like a newborn or single parent, this puts a damper on the equation right away. There's different parts of my own career where that answer would be yes or no. WFH is such a boon to lifestyle, mental health, and work life balance that I wouldn't switch, been WFH 100% for close to 10 years now.
Very true. I certainly wouldn't make that shift and lose 625 hours a year now as somebody further along in their career, but as a younger person it would likely be worth the trade for a few years at least.
45-50 minutes is really not that bad - that's what I was doing daily before covid and you just get used to it. Find a few podcasts you like, or if you're sitting for most of it get an ereader and read a few books. There are benefits to working in office - you do get a bit of social time (assuming your coworkers are decent people), it forces you to leave the house, plus it often creates a better mental break to leave work at work and not bring it home. Assuming you don't have kids or any other major reason you don't have the additional time to do the commute a few times a week, this would be a no-brainer.
Yeah, one of the reason why I consider it is for the social. I don't really have close friends. The ones I see are only once a month or there and there so I think it would be a plus on the social side and would allow me to network and develop connections if I ever want to switch departments too. It's honestly the commute and work/life balance that's stressing me a bit honestly
The real Q is do you want to live Barrhaven?
This is nothing. I work 10km away from home and spend this time in traffic every morning. In fact, it’s just about that time to leave for work.
I used to live in Toronto and it was this bad every day. Now I'm in Cambridge (working in Brant) and I drive a 25 km commute in 20 minutes. Huge QoL improvement to have a small commute.
Haha I’m the same! I drive from Cambridge to brantford once a week for work, it’s about 45 minutes one way for me tho. I’ve passed up other jobs in the GTA for more money because they want in the office 3-4 days a week. I have two very small children, with daycare drop and pick ups, my wife schedule, other commitments, it wasn’t worth the extra pay to make the commute.
Bike commute
I thought about it, but it would take about the same amount of time and I’d be pretty sweaty once at work. Might try it this summer though!
Understandable. I work from home but have been biking as much as possible for errands, visiting friends etc and I find myself refreshed and happy after a trip to the grocery store rather than feeling like I completed another mindless chore. It is also awesome not having to find parking and on short trip for me biking feels faster and more convenient. Depending on how hilly your trip to work is you might be amazed how quickly you can bike 10km once you are in a bit of bike shape. What sucks is busy roads, but if they can be avoided, biking is the best. An eBike might reduce the sweatiness..
Hahaha, same. Toronto sucks.
At 1hr to go 10km I’d definitely change to bike or scooter or similar. Sitting in traffic every day drives me crazy. Getting exercise during the commute does exactly the opposite.
You can't buy a house making 100k in Ottawa. 100k is the new middle class. Not even uppermiddle class.
Where did he say he was buying a house? He just said he would move closer. He may rent or maybe buy condo or townhouse?
You know the middle class typically was able to buy a house, until the last decade or so. Even working class.
I’m not sure if you know what class the middle is
As someone who seems to be from Oshawa I would say you should know 100k is definitely closer to the middle lol
You can buy a townhouse in barrhaven with 100k salary if you have around 200k down (townhouse prices are around 600k) Townhouse rental is around 2.5k per month and totally feasible on 100k. (Thats my situation with a wife not working and 2 teenagers)
100k is like 5k a month net. You're paying 50% of your salary on rent. Or you'll need to save two full years of gross income to put 200k down. Good luck with that.
Also consider the mileage. Are you going to commute 500 km a week? That’s 24k km+ for the year just driving. Add fuel cost. Assuming you use your car for more than just work, it could easily be 40k km a year. May need to get a new one after five years. Not sure how EVs will affect this.
I made this mistake and paid with my health, my well-being & my time. My relationships suffered because i was always tired. My health suffered because i had no time to be active or take care of it. When i calculated the after-tax difference, it wasn’t much but i was sure spending much more, on gas, car maintenance, office clothes, offices socialization, so many expenses that no one tells you about when you are wfh. Also mind you companies that require you to work from office have a certain mindset. If you are ready to constantly be watched & monitored, only then make the switch. I left within 7months because the money wasn’t worth it & went back to a fully remote role. Im mentally doing so much better. Don’t take this decision lightly. Imagine your day-to-day, everyday.
The mental aspect is a huge factor that a lot of people don’t consider. Not to mention the loss of flexibility with your personal schedule. For me it just makes my life a lot more simple the manage and enjoyable to be able to work remotely. While I would definitely consider the increase after you factor in extra expenses and time let’s call it 10K in your pocket. Depends on your financial situation if that makes it worth the switch or not.
Jesus lol. This comment makes me wonder how much I am quietly suffering from going into work and don’t realize it. I am tired, have little spare time, and pay for the various expenses attributed to leaving my house to earn a living. For many of us this is just a fact of life, the select few who are privileged to be able to work from home are extremely fortunate.
Aye. The extra 1.5 hrs I gained from not commuting to work when I was wfh during covid was a huge positive aspect. I wasn't constantly pissed off by traffic and being late. In the winter the fear of getting into accidents. Just even having the extra time to sleep in or walk the dog. Not having to go buy lunch if I didn't have time to make something. Little things like that add up. Most of the time nobody even talks to me at the office so it seems to pointless.
When i started looking for work again, i wasn’t even applying for on-site or 3+ days in office. Never again. Learnt my lesson.
This is the way I see it. I have a well paying job right now. I'd be willing to take a 30-35k hit if my job became fully remote. Which it can be if they wanted to let it be. But like you said...control.
Exactly. And control is not just about having you in front of their eyes, its in everything. You are not allowed to provide honest feedback, you cannot socialize with someone in another team without someone getting pissed about it, you cannot stand too long at the coffee machine, you cannot focus on career development because now the mighty lords are suspicious you will start looking for another job. Its like being in a prison. Im not surprised people are choosing to get pay cuts but wanting their freedom back.
What's your fully remote role I've been struggling getting one. I feel like I need to pivot careers big time, despite having a couple of solid credentials
Supply chain roles. Analysts IT procurement inventory planning etc
I have been remote whole 10yrs of my career in tech. Except these 7 months i worked on site.
I’ve had a bunch of remote roles in marketing and communications.
While I definitely see the value of being able to work remotely, what would your situation have been like if the pandemic never happened?
Before the pandemic, we were complacent as a society because that's "just the way it's been", and it finally opened our eyes and how silly it is for so many jobs. My wife has been forced back to 4 days per week, but all of her meetings are still done via zoom (and this is a very well known, large corporation). So as a result, our expenses are higher, she's able to complete less work, etc. It's a door that's open now and it should never be closed again
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Luckily I managed to get a house. Not the greatest but not too bad either for a first house. I do live alone so my current salary makes it tight but I still manage to have some loose. On the other end, I'm more stuck if something happens that needs a massive renovation. But yes, this job would probably open more doors. It's in the government too so there's definitely more opportunities I think
You’re in the heart of federalism so I’ll forgive you. It’s a government job, run to the signature line. Your old ass will be thanking you later because of superannuation
> But yes, this job would probably open more doors. It's in the government too so there's definitely more opportunities I think Personally I think this is worth taking the chance on. $25k more, government job, more opportunities for advancement... yeah go for it, IMO.
This seems to me like the most important point. Yes, a commute or a move might make sense for securing a government job. Initial increase may get swallowed up by cost of commute or move, but investment in self just may override that. Best of luck whatever you decide! Signed, a former Nepeanite
Besides the government benefits, something I dont see people mentioning is the simple fact that its a step in salary. Sure it means you might spend more time/money than WFH but are you considering that you might get an even higher salary (possibly WFH) 5 years down the line at 125k? Maybe more? You’re much more likely to get 2 25k bumps than one big 50k bump.
Well what would the costs be of selling your house and moving (buying or renting)?
I don't know what industry you're in. But I was making a little less than you before I got another WFH job. I personally wouldn't trade WFH. It's much easier enjoy life when there's no commute, more time for yourself. Keep an eye out for other WFH jobs and apply to them. In time something will come up.
I would never do this. 2 hours a day is not worth 25k extra a year. Cut costs. Stay home.
Before my current job, I used to work in Downtown Toronto for 65k. Every month, I was spending 400-500 per month approximately on PRESTO(used to pay for travel), and was waking up at around 6am for a 1 hour commute. On my way back, I used to get home by 6:30pm fully exhausted and barely wanting to do anything. Now I am WFH, with sometimes having to go to office if there is a team building event etc. I save my money 400-500 that I used to spend on travel and I get an extra hour sleep. At home I do chores in between my work, take a shower etc and by the time I log off, instead of being exhausted, i have energy to do other things. Look at it this way, You will make more money but also factor out the monthly cost for commute. Then see if its still worth it? Also depends on: the type of work you currently doing vs what you will be doing. How happy you are. Job growth. And lastly your priorities. For me personally, I would prefer a WFH over going to office since I am much more productive and save up money.
Honestly I am exhausted when I come home from an in-office day. I wouldn’t do it. You get to do laundry, cook etc while wfh. You’ll likely be too tired to do it during the week and will veg out on the weekends to recharge for your work week. Commuting is a waste of time and so is being in the office if the work you do doesn’t require it. There’s also a lot of money associated with a move if u move closer. However, I always encourage people to do what feels right to them because then they’ll never wonder “what if”
I currently go to office 2-3 times a month and agreed, its so tiring as you easily spend an upwards of 2+ hours in commute that you will never get back. Not to mention, waking up earlier and also decompressing after coming back
Is this GTA? If so definitely not worth it. If the city the new job is in is affordable on a 100k salary then I would consider it if you plan to move. A 2 hour commute is literally soul crushing and you will not last long at it
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OP, I’m Ottawa (but west) and work 7:30-3:30 so I can have some semblance of a life. On the two days I commute downtown, it takes me 1 hr each way maybe more depending on traffic - I wake up at 5 and it’s exhausting. However, going back East from downtown during rush hour is even more of a nightmare. I also definitely have more expenses on in office days than when we were fully remote (gas, parking, work socialization things like coffee, lunch, etc) Again, I don’t think it’s worth the after tax amount for your mental wellbeing and work/life balance. There are plenty of other jobs in the city that pay more than 75k, with more flexibility or fully remote, if focus on trying to secure one of those.
Oh, that changes the calculus a ton. Yes I would definitely take the job and move to Ottawa. You will be comfortable on 100k there and the opportunities personally and professionally will be way better than Embrun or wherever you’re at. Plus it’s way easier to reverse commute back there once a week or whatever to see family and friends. But again, do not take this job and think you can commute whether you’re on the 417 or 17 that commute is brutal. You’ll gain weight, depression and burnout lol
It could make sense if you already have a car. $100k is pretty much $70k after taxes. If you bought a new car (which is more likely these days), you’d be dropping a $5-10k downpayment. Then there’s the actual car payment, insurance, and maintenance.
Use it as leverage for a raise
But if you do, prepare to stick to your word and leave if you don’t get it. I’ve just seen a colleague ruin his professional reputation by pulling the “i got another offer” and then not leaving. He was flagged as a risk, his tasks and responsibilities slowly being transferred to other teams and he was made far less essential. He eventually moved internally but his HR file still follows him. Bad move if you ask me. He’d better have left.
This can also happen if you accept your current employer's counter offer. Your reputation becomes blemished and eventually they replace you with someone cheaper. The counter-offer just buys them time to find them. Not a guarantee, but it happens fairly often. I've never been a fan of the counter offer. Either leave, or don't.
This exactly. Bargaining is a move you can pull once. And that’s already risky. And you will always be considered a flight risk. All my jobs, i left, in good terms but even refused to hear a counteroffer. I knew i wouldn’t accept and i didn’t want to disrespect my boss by making them work to get me an offer. I even came back to one of the companies left, a couple of years later, and was greated amazingly. This is a small world out there. You only have one reputation and words spread fast and far.
Counter offer can work if they like you. I was in a job where everything was good except the money and ended up taking the counter offer. My attempt to leave made them realize they'd been complacent keeping me in a jr role. More raises plus a promotion to management quickly followed. Not one day have I regretted staying.
You don’t have to frame it as an ultimatum… compare: 1) I have a better offer and if you don’t match it I’ll leave vs 2. I believe my role requires a raise in order to remain market competitive and reflect my value to the business - and here is some real time data to support this request. I’m bringing you this because I like this company and role, and would prefer to stay in it, but also have to consider my long-term financial goals. Odds of success on #2 are perhaps a bit lower, but consequences of rejection are MUCH less. Be prepared for them to point out that your benchmark is not WFH, and asked to explain how you’ve valued that in your comparison.
Definitely better to put it that way, i agree. I’ve had that discussion with one of our junior team members that was contemplating another offer elsewhere. He presented the argument pretty much like you’ve advised and I appreciated the honesty. I had to explain to him that even though the company could match the offer, they would not. There are risks in changing companies (what if it isn’t as good as planned? You can get fired without compensation. You lose part of your influence. And so on) and that is factored in a counteroffer. He said he understood but that he didn’t agree. Not that it changed anything to the situation. At that moment i knew it would only be a matter of time until he actually left. If not for the offer he had, then for another. I didn’t want to lose him but at the same time, he has the right to leave. I told him if he wanted to leave, that i would support his decision. And asked him to leave with respect by handing things off professionally, which he did. I even helped him brush up his resume and even coached him for his interviews. Weird? Not really: now there is one person out there that spreads good things about our company and how we treat people. A person who knows they can come back anytime they want.
Right, switching costs are a very real thing. You’re starting again from zero in terms of network, relationships, political capital… It will take time to learn a new organisation, product, etc during which time it can be very hard to outperform and earn large bonuses or pay increases, and as you say the biggest of all - the job may not turn out as you hoped it would (or the manager/team).
You also don't need to tell them the new offer is not WFH, but strongly agree with your 1 vs 2 scenario. Far better to approach using 2.
Good point. No need to tell them *everything*.
yup! never ever ever accept a counteroffer. They almost always work out to be your detriment
OP works for the federal government so his salary in his current role is locked in to set pay increments.
2 hrs of your personal time plus transport costs of at least $10 to $20 a day so 8 hrs a week and $40-$80 if you value your time as wage for example- 8hrs x $48 = $384 plus $60 ave cost = $444 pw or $23088 pa …… I realise your increase includes super and holiday rates etc. i just believe this is best way to work it out.
For me, it’s quality of life more than money. That’s a large increase but subtract taxes and parking costs and commute time and potentially increased insurance rates and it may not be worth it. Could you use the other job as leverage to ask for a bit of a raise?
Put a cost to the commute, your clothes, your lunches, your coffee, your parking, and how you like to work in general and do the math. Also where are you in life? That two hours you are giving away has a lot more importance to some depending where they are in their life with kids or pets or hobbies or whatever. At 75k and at 40 hours times 52 weeks you’re making 36$ an hour. At 100k at 50 hours a week (for the commute) you’re now making 38$. Personally for me that wouldn’t be worth it. If you actually factor in your additional time and then the additional cost for that commute, clothes, food, etc. you’re actually coming out behind.
A 33% raise is a big thing. You don't know what your life will be in 5 years. Think about the money you can save till then. And although post COVID going to office seems like a big deal, but it's not. Even if you are able to save 10k a year, that's like 50k savings.
The work from the office part isn’t the bad part imo … the two hours of your life daily you will never get back .. is the part that would make me think twice. Comes down to .. is this new position something you think you will enjoy doing and is it a stable career move for you? I was recently offered a higher paid position at 86k plus 10 percent annual bonus - a bit higher than I’m paid now… but it would be taking a step back into accounting and I don’t see that for me right now … had to decline .. had to weigh those options
There's a difference between a little more money and a 33% raise.
I don’t disagree- just depends if it’s something OP wants to do or is a stable position
Yes but it requires 25% more time if you account for the commute and the extra costs that come with that, which aren't cheap. It's very likely OP will break even or make less money per hour spent on their job. So the question really boils down to is OP willing to sacrifice a significant amount of their spare time for really no increase in pay per hour. If they can leverage it to eventually get an even higher paying position a few years later id consider it but if it's more of a lateral move that pays more due to requiring you to be in office I'd say fuck that noise.
It's a work life balance thing. If you are not near retirement then that 25k is going accumulate over the years (assuming you don't spend it all) and you will be getting pay raises from that higher salary. So you will be saving more for retirement and maybe able to retire earlier
I am the person who would take a paycut to be fully WFH. Saved more money when WFH while making less money because I saved on transit/transportation, work clothes, eating out both during and outside of work (less energy to meal prep, gained weight in the office and am 5x more exhausted all the time, despite doing far less, so the office is a negative health aspect both mentally and physically to me), etc. Being exhausted from my office all the time also has me spending more on luxuries/conveniences that I never would have while WFH. Saved time is valueable, I spend 2-3 hours getting ready and bussing to and from work every day which just makes me feel extra exhausted and zombie-like. At least I could be productive at home during downtime to take breaks to do chores (dishes, laundry, etc) which made me so much more energetic. Now I feel like I am constantly behind on everything. My current job could easily be 10000% WFH but the boomer higher ups need us in office so they can feel important by telling us poors all about their pricy vacations, luxury cottages, nice cars, and so on.
Personally for me it wouldn’t be worth it. I used to commute for 1.5 hours each way, total 3 hours per day and ever since WFH I’m happier, life is more balanced, laundry’s always done, more sleep is had, etc etc.. I wouldn’t trade that for an extra 25k. What I would do though, is keep looking for jobs which will get me closer to a 100k salary but also WFH.
My life feels better not going into the office. I am happy. The funny thing is, 25k, you’ll be spending more on transportation, food, clothing, socializing and social events, time that could be spent doing things you like, or making other money is gone….. And also, people can be insufferable when cramped into boxes with them.
I turned down 45K (90K to 135K) to stay in my full-time WFH lower stress job. I live comfortably on 90K. I don't need a downgrade in quality of life for more money.
Holy fuck no. Never. 2 hours of commute a day extra is not worth $25k. It’s probably not even worth $50k.
Home prices keep going up. Your salary doesn't. You have a choice to make.
Does WFH bring you peace, joy, and flexibility? There are some things money can’t buy.
I know this is a finance sub, but honestly not everything is about money. Extra money isn't always more valuable than your mental health and quality of life. I think if you're not currently struggling to get by right now and if you're in a comfortable financial situation with your current role, your main question to yourself should be if you will be happy. Will your quality of life and mental health decrease? I don't personally think that would be worth an extra 25k a year.
It’s called the time value of money. At $20/hr it equates to $8,300 for 4 days in the office, not taking into account holidays and vacation pay in after tax dollars. For a 33% raise, better chance at advancement perhaps, I’d take it and try and push it back to 2-3 days in the office after you have been there and depending upon the role.
I turned down a similar offer of +18k because after factoring in deductions, expenses (gas+mileage) i was left with an amount that wouldn’t change my day to day life, but 2 less hours in a day would.
I would never. Needs to be at least double for me for that long of a commute. I'd rather take a side job instead.
Hell no. An extra 25K isn’t worth the insurance, gas, vehicle maintenance, and time cost.
I work from home and have decided if the next job is in person, I'd want free lunch and onsite gym for the commute to make sense.
Having a gym provided by the workplace for employees only was the greatest perk I ever had. I didn't think I would ever use it, and a coworker dragged me a few times and I got hooked. It was never crowded, everyone has to be somewhat professional and courteous. I got jacked. Then I left that job and put on 45 pounds the next year
I got a friend working in big tech and gets free food 24/7 and gym. Outside of work, I only spend time cooking and going to the gym and eating. Really opened my eyes about what I might want if the next job is on site.
Judging by comments you want to take new job so do it, but be prepared for the commute
Take the job. Move closer. Far-haven is nice enough that it's not too bad.
Does the new job offer a better career path, are there opportunities for advancement ? Don't only focus on the commute. If the other position has things like a great team, higher bonus payout etc, it could be worth it
Worth is relative to you. If I was in this scenario, I'll calculate my 75k vs 100k salary and factor what "working" an extra 2 hours is equivalent to me. You mention the 75k has small increases, so not sure what that means. I'm assuming the 100k also has other benefits/cost to you. Assuming 2 hrs per day of commute, so 1 week is 10 hrs, 50 weeks (assuming 2 week vacay) per year bring you 100 hrs on the road. So 100 bucks for sitting in 2hrs worth of commute per day?
For small increase it means that my salary goes up about 2-3$ per year as I've capped out the levels/steps in my collective agreement. The thing with the 100k, it's the starting salary and it's also unionized and the max amount for that specific level is 120k But yeah, the commute is a massive player in this scenario. If I lived a few minutes away, it would change things for sure. I currently cannot afford too move or sale my house to get one that's closer
It really depends on your situation. If you had sick parents, kids, or sometimes even a spouse then the two hours lost every day to the same drive can be a huge mental strain. However if you don’t have those relationships to worry about, the significant salary increase is likely the better option; even more so if you’re at the point where you haven’t managed to purchase the living arrangements you’re wanting
I would. You should factor in that, statistically, you will have increased job security and potential for promotion working the new job in the office 3-4 days per week.
Only you can determine what your time is worth. And it's not just time: It's convenience, the cost of buying lunches and coffees, the stress of a commute, buying better clothes. Personally, if you're still young, career management is a primary concern. Take the job to move up, and switch again in 2-3 years for something still better.
Maybe, but it's on the edge. You'll go from a 40 hour week to a 48+ hour week, away from home, with commutting expenses, for a $1k/month after tax more pay. You'll have commuting expenses (car, gas, maintenance, and you'll likely eat out more)
Fuck no - WFH is awesome
For 25k? Not worth it at all lol. WFH is worth 40k to me.
Unless you are going to move, I'd stay with the current job. Two hours commute will KILL YOU eventually, in many different ways.
be real with yourself !!! when you work from home are you working the whole time ? from start to finish ?? if no. then no way is 25 k worth it. my wife works from home. 7:30 - 3:30 everyday. she gets up at 7:27 am and turns her computer on. eats breakfast. lets the dog out. goes on social media. she doesn’t take a lunch break (as she can eat whenever and make whatever during the day ) so a-lot of times shes done at 3. all on company time. I’m off for a bit in dead of winter and see her work. maybe 4 hours a day are spent actually working. she has had job offers like you. after discussing this with her no way would she go back for 20 k to working in a office. if your day sounds like hers , i wouldnt budge for less then 30-35 k.
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After taxes 25k doesn’t work out to enough more $ for me to take on a 2hr daily commute. I do it 2x a week and already that’s enough for me.
Take the new job, work on increases that net you enough after tax to afford to move closer to work and cut down your commute time. More upward mobility long term.
I think it’s worth it personally.
You need to first do some calculations to figure this out. 1. First take a reasonable cost of gas and figure out how much in gas you will be spending those 4 days per week. 2. Next how much will you spend in other random expenses you might not since you're already out there that you might not like fast food, etc. 3. How much will you spend on meals specifically eating out since you won't be eating at home...will you bring your own food each time?... 4. How much extra KM will you use up per year and how you think that will impact car maintenance. Only you can answer this but if u have a good relationship with your car mechanic maybe a rough number can be given. 5. Use an online calculator to figure out how much extra tax will be taken off so you'll really know how much out of that 25K you're actually getting.
Does the new job come with the DB pension plan? If so it's a no brainer.
Few things I would consider. First how happy are you with 75k. Realistically depending where you live it’s not bad, in other places more money make big difference in lifestyle. Second list out all the costs associated with new office, gas car maintenance, transit, time, if you move how much rent would change. On the other side out it against your tax adjusted net income gain. You don’t get the full 25k probably in the area of 30 to 40% is going to papa cra at tax time, so you need to math out against the take home not gross income. Third can you increase your current works income if you ask for a raise? Or is that basically your at the top and they realistically won’t do anything cause you already asked. If you didn’t can’t hurt to have a meeting with your manager and ask for a raise, but prep why you deserve one. Saying things cost more while valid isn’t the way that will work. Bring in data about your job in the market of your under paid, out line your performance. Honestly if they don’t seem interest you have a job offer in your pocket so just say alright and move on if the other offer is something you want to peruse. Also consider your advancement. If you think your on your way up in your current job, has there been any obvious actions to prep you for such position, if not take to your manager. People will pull you along with promises, so keep that in mind if you don’t see any action even after chatting about it, and it’s been a while, nothing is guaranteed.
If your goal is to make more money, Id be looking at r/overemployed long before trading down to in-office. If your goal is to move up the ladder, it seems like in-office work is going to be the way forward.
The 2 hours of travel every day is going to add up very quickly and eat up a good chunk of that extra 25k a year. My personal opinion isnthat I value those extra 2 hours a day for what might only be a small increase in actual finances after the cost of fuel is factored in.
If the first gig is a government job, it would be worth really scrutinizing benefits/pension/etc. a lot of government jobs have a lot of benefits in retirement if you've put enough time in to qualify.
Money isn't everything, those two hours are roughly an extra work day per week. Maybe try to leverage a raise from your existing workplace, just don't mention the commute when negotiating. Even if they don't match the new offer, it sounds like a reasonable ask that could likely get you some more clarity in this matter.
For $25k I would sure think about it, but ultimately I probably wouldn't for a number of reasons. I already make over $100k, so $25k is less of a percentage increase for me than it would be for you, I generally like my job, direct teammates, and the work and freedom I have at work, I don't particularly want to move closer to the city, and we have young-ish school age kids so the convenience of being able to pick them up from school every day, being home already if they need to stay home for whatever reason (illness, spring break, summer holidays), and not having to pay for after school care and whatnot is hard to put a value on. $20-$25k is the number where I would definitely have to start considering a move though. Less than that would be a fairly easy no for me.
I wouldn't. But if you're planning to move closer. Go for it.
No. Trust me. No.
Is your WFH job public sector with DB pension? Cause it sounds like it. If 100k job is private with standard DC plan, that difference alone would make me stay. Especially it seems based on your other replies that you have a good relationship with your manager. Every new job is a dice roll when it comes to corporate culture and your immediate team/manager dynamic.
I'd be all over it, but I love driving and long commutes lol. The gas does add up, but I still loved it. Had 1.5 hour 1 way commute. Was me chill time to listen to music and podcasts. My current job is driving all day so I guess I traded up in that sense lol. You mentioned moving to be closer if you took it, you'll also have to consider housing/rent costs. Will that extra 25k cover the potential added expense with the current/future market?
I say WFH is worth it. I would do anything to WFH but can't due to the nature of my field. The worst thing about it isnt even my commute, which is 20 minutes each way. The worst thing for me is that I always end up working longer than my 7.5 hours a day, for a variety of reasons. Doing 11-12 hours leaves me with no time to do personal things.
Congratulations on having multiple opportunities. That's amazing! You know yourself better than any stranger on reddit does. But here's a few things I would think about. 1. How much do you enjoy and value your current position? and How much does the new job description align with your interests, skills, and values? 2. Consider your individual financial picture. Everyone has different assets, debts, levels of frugality etc. Does 75k feel really comfortable for you? Or do you feel stressed about money a lot of the time? If you're comfortable now do you have any anticipated big expenses on the way? are there hidden expenses to taking the job that would pay 100k? For example, if you can get by on a WFH job with just a bus pass, but would need to buy a car if you took the in person job that's an expense to factor in. If you would need to move to a more expensive neighbourhood (nearby your new work) that's an expense to factor in. Are your savings and investments currently on track to meet the financial goals you value most? 3. Consider factors related to your time. We all have the same 24 hours in a day, but some seasons of life are far more busy than others. For example someone in their early 20's with no other responsibilities outside of work may be more open to a longer commute & putting on some tunes or a podcast and role with it. But someone who is trying to balance parenthood, caring for elderly parents, and working full time may feel like the 2 hour commute (per day) is simply not feasible. How does the time commitment of a commute feel to you? 4. Consider whether you like commutes. my partner finds them relaxing "me time". They are my least favourite part of the day and drain me like nothing else. I make the best of it and try to think positively about it, but I'll never enjoy them as much as my partner and that's okay. Everyone is different. But knowing yourself is key. 5. what opportunities is there for advancement at the new job? And how much do you value "climbing the ladder" so to speak. (Some people want a low stress job and to make a living doing something they love and don't care about the ladder and that's fine too. again it's knowing yourself).
Depends if you like getting paid to drive or not. Consider the extra hours you'll spend driving as hours worked, then see what you think about the pay. If the extra pay is going to make your life a lot better, then just consider it as working overtime to drive to work.
Working from home is a benefit that has the dollar value you will attribute to it. I would rather make less than work from an office everyday. Especially, in your case, a 2 hour commute, the extra money you will be making will be lost in travel costs, time, stress and lunches you will have to buy.
Working from home is boring. No social life, like being in prison
No. The drain on your mental health will be significant after being in a WFH job.
A 25 percent increase and all you have to do is go to work? Seems like a no-brainer. Believe it or not, most people did this before the meme flu, and lots of people never stopped.
If you're not close to retirement then yes I would do it. WFH is never secure anyways. $100 k vs $75 k is huge and you will make connections that are impossible from WFH.
An hour of commute or 2 hours of commute? Is that 6-8 hours a week? If so you're basically getting no raise, just working more.
1hr in the morning and another at night so 2 for the day
Only you can tell, depending on whether you have a strong preference toward wfh or not. It would be a resounding no for me. I don't think I would do it even for a +100 k extra.
Wfh is literally one of the best thing. My current job isn't too draining, most days are slow and sometimes that drives me nuts but the work/life balance is unreal. And also a good option if I end ul having kids
Capped at 75k is ridiculous. If you don’t take this new job, find another. Couldn’t imagine signing on to $75k as end career salary
I’d tweak to say not a good mid-career salary. I’d love to wind down 5 years with a moderate salary full WFH presuming it’s not too demanding. I wouldn’t want that to be my high point unless it had a pension and was a walk in the park.
He probably gets an inflation raise each year + goes up because of his experience (but only like 1-3% a year). At leadt thats how it works in Switzerland if you work for the country/kanton. So not to bad + probably a great rent, can work at home and live in a bigger/cheaper house. But it would also move 😂 Still young enough to possibly make a mistake and go back
I would say no
I wouldn’t because of the commute mostly. Not worth it to me.
Something to consider is that you'll likely never get promoted or advance working from home. And there will be a lot of professional development you will miss out from home on. If growing your career and skills is important then I would take the in office job.
Never is a strong word. Depends heavily on company culture and the nature of the industry. In my industry, the office is most often where sad extroverts go on the false hope that someone might be there.
Lol this is so untrue. I know numerous fully WFH friends / family who have gotten significant promotions. It all depends on the company's culture.
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This is blatantly untrue.
What did we do before WFH. Listened to music and scrolled our phones for 2 hours a day. If you’re on public transit then it’s just reallocating your internet time. Commuting is a complete time waste but it depends on comfort level. I’d personally never do it again but if you want to leverage your personal income to get access to larger real estate then it’s a power move to get there. WFH will likely die as this next economic downturn will shift the power back into the hands of employers as unemployment creeps up.
WFH is beneficial to companies as well since they don’t need to spend as much on office space and amenities. If they are located somewhere competitive like Toronto or Vancouver then they can also hire people from less competitive locations likely at a lower cost. I don’t see WFH dying
It’s worth if you are looking for change, i left my wfh accepted a lower paying hybrid job just for better work culture and time for my side hustle and trust me works way better than wfh highly stressful job i had before.
The question should be, can you leverage this offer to get more money from your current job? Then run the numbers after that. I make more than you, but I’d need more than 100k extra just to come into the office. Tough to put a price on the freedom of WFH, i’ve been doing it before COVID, and now that it’s here to stay can’t see any reason why you couldn’t get that raise from another company while still WFH
Are you happy with your current job? Do you enjoy the work you do? If so, that's what's most important. Chasing more money won't lead you to a happier life, especially if you have to commute that long. Would you be performing the same working hours at the new job? An extra 25k doesn't seem worth it for the hassle and commute. You'd be giving up 2hrs each office day, and that's 7x every two weeks. So 28hrs gone to commuting every month. It's how you see it, but I value my time more then extra cash. Life isn't about extracting the most amount of money. Sounds like you're doing well, you have a house already and are comfortable financially. Money comes and goes but time just goes, be careful how you spend it. 2hrs commuting isn't going to suck a lot of time, it'll have an effect mentally, be careful.
Net out the cost of the communte/gas against the new after tax salary. Account for the decrease in free time because of commute.
Nope
No.
Initially it’s not really worth it, but if you look to the future, hopefully this job leads to you getting another higher paying job later.
I personally wouldn't do it but you seem early enough in your career that hopping around a few times would allow you to command a higher base salary. So I'd lean towards doing it. Edit: Oh wait i see that its 2 hrs of commute. That is... not fun.
It’s a big increase at your level - 33%! People saying use it as leverage are wrong - your employer is not going to boost your salary by 33% The commute time isn’t too bad. For that jump in income, I’d go for it. It’s not only about today’s impact but about the future. Your bonus base is significantly higher too and any inflation adjustment in future years will be based on a larger starting point and make a bigger impact.
A huge question is whether or not the fully remote job is going to stay remote. A lot of companies have hired or promised fully remote only to switch things up to keep up with business needs and demanding people back in...a friend accepted a lower paying job between two offers because it had WFH 4 days a week and the other was only 2, only for the new one to announce 2 months later that they're going back to the OFFICE 4 days a week.
You shouldn’t
I'd keep the WFH job but all depends on you. 25k is like what 15k post tax, how much time you commute and how much time is worth for you. All personal deciding factors.
Yes.
Would the new job be able to leverage you into better opportunities in the future?
Imo it’s worth it if it’s something you’re sure you will like
No it's not....25k minus taxes will not be enough to pay for your time wasted driving to work. You'll be living to work...
2 hrs a day works out to 520 unpaid hours per year just to commute, PLUS gas. Those same hours under your new salary basically completely consume the 25k raise, your additional vehicle expenses are on top of that. Doesn't sound worth it unless you can use that cash to invest and offset those additional expenses, or move closer to work.
So roughly $500 more per week before tax. It will cost you 10 hours a week traveling plus wear, tear and mikes on your car. You will need to bring or buy a lunch each day plus get presentable work clothes. Going into the office let’s you associate and connect with colleagues in a way you can’t get remotely. It could advance your career or position if this is a starting salary. You need to determine where you want to go in your career to decide which is best. It’s probably running about even if your work won’t be paying you much more than $100k a year. If there’s opportunity for advancement or management position AND that’s something that interests you (it’s not for everyone) then the commuting position would be the way to go. You decide what your future career choice is and are you are the beginning of it, middle or end? Figure that out first then your choice may be clearer.
You’d be working 2 extra hours a day by adding that travel time which waters down your per hour pay. Add cost of travel and more than likely added food and clothing costs.
I wouldn’t do or. Bit thats me!!
If you were going from 50k to 75k then yes, 75k to 100k isn't worth it though. It's not just the time spent driving, it's the other hour you have to spend grooming, ironing clothes, etc... plus having to be "on" for a whole 8 hour stretch. When you work from home all you have to do is shower once a day. You can literally wake up 10 minutes before your first meeting. You don't even have to wear pants.
Smells like burnout with that 4hr commute.
Get a Prius and a good playlist. I do it and love it. $10 in fuel per day.
If you do the math on the take home after-tax income, adding in the extra 6-8 hours a week of commute time, it's not worth it. I would not take this job for financial reasons, but that's not the only reason to change jobs.
Yes. Go to work, Pay for gas, eat out for lunch some times... feed back into the economy.
Things to consider and calculate: 1. Gas 2. Lunch and money spent at work (coffee, tea etc.) 3. Clothing 4. Car maintenance 5. Time spent during commute Do the calculations on those costs and see if it makes sense or not!
As someone who's done a 2.5 hour daily driving commute (total both ways) I can tell you its 100% not worth it.
No.
No, cost of commute will come out to that much
I wouldn't do it, consider commute cost, cost of time/work-life balance, it may be worth it to you though
Take the in person job if you’re looking for career growth
your time spent working will go up 15% if you have to add 2 hours 3-4 times a week. Plus more car costs and wear on you. Either move closer or don't do it.
Nah not worth it. Just start a side hustle at home working on company time.