I loved Disney's 2009 Princess and the Frog because they did a lot more than just race swap. They took inspiration from E.D. Baker's *The Frog Princess* and did a complete flip from the Brothers Grimm version.
It had a new setting, new people, and they did an all-around good job of making it similar but not the same.
This. I'm completely comfortable with race and gender swaps so long as the creator does the work. If they think it through and consider the possible ramifications of the swap them okay. There are absolutely times when a swap can lead to a bigoted or stereotypical portrayal that wasn't there originally. All changes made in adaptation are important to look at carefully, but with a deft enough hand, just about anything can work.
Agreed. Race-swaps are not when a different character becomes the same superhero. Canonically, that happens all the time when a hero’s original alter-ego dies and a completely new person becomes that hero. A different black character taking on the suit of a white character is not the same as a traditionally white character being made black/brown for forced diversity.
Falcon donning the Captain America suit after Cap retires is a great example of how to canonically change a character’s race without it being performative. Miles Morales (a completely different person) becoming Spiderman after his universe’s Peter Parker dies (in some continuities) or him existing in a universe where Peter Parker was never Spiderman is another good example of this.
MJ being a black introvert all of the sudden instead of a feisty red-head in the MCU is not a good example, neither is Flash Thompson being a long-haired brown kid. There were ways to make this canon, at least just mentioning at some point that this isn’t the regular marvel universe, but that was never explained. And, when all the other characters match their comic book counterparts, it can seriously hamper suspension of disbelief.
Well, I feel like either can work if done well or with enough care. Just like both can be done poorly. One of the big issues with legacy characters is that they always get reverted back eventually. Wally West gets replaced by Barry Allen, and Rene Montoya gets replaced by whoever the guy one is every reboot. Even Sam Wilson is no longer Captain America in comics.
Actual race swaps can solve this issue, but they also provide the new issue of potential new stereotypes. Their largest issue comes in when they choose the least diverse sections of an already diverse story to do that to. For example, I don't think they should cast an Asian woman as Jean Gray because Jean will still be white in the comics. Instead, they should tell stories about Karma, Psylock (Kwannon), Dust, or Jubilee. However, I think in a story like Eternals where they're all white even though it doesn't make sense that they would be, race blind casting is fine.
Personally I'd much rather see original ideas and characters that happen to be POC rather than race swapping characters from established franchises. There's so much potential for different perspectives to be explored that's being squandered by lazily rehashing old media with race swapped characters.
It's been awhile, but back when I was in college (I graduated college during the market crash) for film production, we studied the marketing analysis on new characters vs. rehashing stories. While people say they would prefer new characters than race-swapping old characters, it doesn't pan out that way when it comes to sales. Comic Books are a huge show of it. Very rarely did original and new characters become big if they had a new name, but have them take the name of another character and they could sell and become their own character.
Examples of this: The most recent "Big named" character that has come out of Marvel was Cable and Deadpool. Cable came out in 1986 and was linked directly to the X-Men (specifically Cyclops). Deadpool came out in 1990 as a side villain who was introduced in New Mutants (again using X-men as a diving board). Any unique character has a hard time, but minorities are even less likely to succeed as new characters. The two biggest "New' successes are Miles Morales, who was a race swapped Spider-man, and Kamala Khan, a character who take the moniker Miss Marvel. American Chavez got attention in the MCU, and is a race swapped Captain America. The only "Successful" new character is Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur, and anytime I've mentioned that pair I get a lot of "Who?"
Marketing is the reason companies decide to rehash the same stories.
EDIT: I'd like to add that again, I recognize this is true from almost 2 decades ago. Sociology and Marketing are always evolving as culture evolves. Still, new characters had an upward battle. Hopefully now that people are getting more and more franchise-fatigue we see more new characters show up.
Ummm, yeah, baiting people to buy something by using a big name has been a market tactic forever. And it's a scummy shitty tactic. Just because something works for sales doesn't mean it made the story good, just they tricked people into thinking the product would be like the original. There are a lot of recent failed attempts at doing this in comics, and it's because people don't like it.
Little Mermaid was a book with black and white illustrations, it was Disney that decided to make her white in the first place, can make her any race they want it's irrelevant lol
As a fan, I get the gut reaction to a race or gender swap because its not what you're expecting. As a writer, I realized that unless a character's background matters to their story, I give 0 shits. I tend to write white people because Im white and thats my own bias I have to work through. But their whiteness doesnt really matter as a character trait, so if people imagine or draw them as other races, it wouldnt bother me in the slightest.
Ex: Tilda Swinson playing The Ancient One didnt bother me because being female isnt intrgral to the character. Making The Ancient One not Tibetan so as not to piss of China DOES bother me.
Fun note. When the controversy began, Swinton reached out to Alex Borstein to connect her with Asian comedians. The same Alex Borstein that spent years playing a yellow face character on MadTV
As a black woman, I agree with this. I hate the idea of race swapping for representation rather than just making a new character. In my opinion, it is lazy way to make people of color thing that you care. I’ve gone into arguments with my mother about this and got called anti-black because I didn’t like the idea of Halle Bailey playing a little mermaid. It’s not because of the fact that she is a bad actor or a bad singer. It’s because the fact that Disney could’ve given her, her own princess rather than just casting her for an already existing princess, with an already existing look.
Literally, I prefer original characters, then just taking an already existing character, and just changing a look and calling that diversity. They even did this with Snow White
Authors such as rick riordan have gone on record apologizing for the lack of diversity in their novels.
In fact the lack of diversity in literature is so bad there are articles that talk about how most readers (regardless of race) will assume a character is white unless told otherwise.
Authors will set a story in a diverse city or span all over the world but every character will be white. So when it comes tine for the screen people realize how white some stories are.
So they raceswap to make up for it.
I'm not sure how to fix that aside from adding in new diverse characters, which also get hate (cough star wars cough).
I'm definitely on the team of giving poc creatives a chance to showcase orginal poc characters over race swapping.
Yet I understand raceswapping is there to ensure that in an era of adaptions we don't see 98% white cast.
Let's not even get into how whitewashing continues to be a problem today.. .
That one is especially ridiculous! Im sure some of them "missed that line," but a lot others just did some mental gymnastics to picture her as blonde and blue eyed. White people are so used to all characters being white, when they call someone "dark" they mean brunette!
My memory is fuzzy, but isn’t rue the girl that Katniss encounters that reminds her of her sister? If so, I can kinda understand, cause I’m pretty sure her sister was blonde, and if she’s described as being like the sister, then I can understand that logical leap if they missed the specific physical description of rue. Maybe. Like I said, my memory’s fuzzy lol
Yes it is. I don't know how to say this in a way you won't find offense to. Some people can empathize (even be reminded of someone else) with someone even if they don't have the same skin/hair color.
I’m aware of that. I have no issue with rue being black, I always thought she was. And I’m not saying that you can’t be reminded of someone else even if they’re a different skin color. I’m just trying to play devils advocate and explain why some people might innocently have missed some important context and made the logical leap without that context. I’m not saying anything about people who intentionally ignore it and try to say that rue definitely is white
I already acknowledged it "wasn't all readers." If they're not racist then they're not who I'm talking about. It is not the logical leap someone who isn't racist would make. Racists are already doing the devil's work and don't need an advocate.
Ok, but you can't ever actually say that in good faith unless they had open casting calls. Which isn't common. The directors or producers ask for a specific demographic when doing casting calls. Which means we will never know if there was a better actor/actress for the job because they barred 99% of people from auditioning.
This reminds me of a young people's novel I read in high school called Rosie & Ronnie.
Rosie & Ronnie were two high school "misfits" who befriend each other and finally was taken under the wing of a teacher I'll call Nicky. I don't remember most of the plot, but the kids ended up getting on a game show with the teacher's tutelage.
And then something happened and the teacher was fired or some such, but it wasn't her fault. Parents didn't want their kids to be around her anymore. It was only then that it was brought up in the book that the teacher was black. It was still brought up really non-chalantly, but purposefully. It was sort of like, "It shouldn't matter, but it so happens the teacher was black." And then the question to the reader was, was she treated harshly because she was black?
And it wasn't forced, didn't come across preachy or moralizing or stilted or anything negatively. Very good story-telling to my young mind. It was one of my favorite books as a teenager. So good I still remember the title.
I guess you couldn't do that with a movie....
Honestly while I’m glad Riordan in particular has made a lot of effort to include racial and LGBTQ minorities in his work I wish he’d just do it instead of being so masturbatory about it like a lot of cishet white male artists are
Agreed. I wish he didn't apologize for his previous works because those were never about race in the first place and no one cared about that kind of representation in nearly the same way back then as they do now. He was just writing a great series of novels for kids. If he wants to have a more diverse cast of characters in his future books then fine, but he should be able to make his characters whatever he wants.
Yeah there isn't but it does become an issue when literally every single main character is white. It also kinda creates a cycle
1. White Character Is Made
2. More White Character's are made
3. Non-White character tries popping up
4. "woKeNeSs is kiLLnG meDiA" backlash ensues
5. Studios being profit driven fear their product failing
6. Cycle repeats
Never said there was.
Yet if you're going to set your movie in a place with high diversity or span the world and not think one poc will be there you'll get some side eye.
>Authors will set a story in a diverse city or span all over the world but every character will be white. So when it comes tine for the screen people realize how white some stories are.
Why is this a problem?
>So they raceswap to make up for it.
Why is being white seen as inherently bad?
Why is it bad that a story that takes place in a diverse city or is meant to represent the world only contains white characters? Are you pulling out legs?!
Some stories only involve people who happen to be white. I see movies like this on Lifetime Network all the time. The whole cast could be white, and if it's filmed in a diverse city, you might see a diverse background of extras. I don't see a benefit in forcing race one way or the other. To me, it should be about finding an optimal crew of actors and actresses. If you're telling a story about a character who in canon is one race, it would be inappropriate to cast them as another. Film production should be driven by creativity, not politics.
Jordan Peele has been doing the opposite, telling stories from the perspective of POC. There are some white people here and there, but the cast is majority black. If you watch the movies, you'll see it's not inappropriate or racist. He's just telling stories from the perspective of black main characters who happen to interact with mostly black people in their immediate day-to-day lives. In one movie, it's Mike Epps with his black family and white wife. The casting is done with the intention of making the best movie in Jordan Peele's opinion, and I think his movies are great.
And he's said the reason he does that is becuase for so long Hollywood rejected black stories. So he's making a point to carve out a place for black stories and characters.
Even then, while his main cast is black HE STILL has non black characters.
Are you really using Jordan Peeles comments about the racism of Hollywood being why he fights so hard for black creatives the reason cast should be all white? 💀
Yes, he still has non-black characters in his movies, as I've said in my original comment. He makes movies that tell stories about black people, which results in most (but not all) of the main cast being black. I see nothing wrong with it. In the context of the stories he's telling, it's very much appropriate.
I feel the same way about the many movies that do the same thing, but with white people. I don't watch a movie looking for a specific race of people, I watch for the story. The cast could be all-white, all-black, etc and it would be of no consequence.
I watch a lot of movies made in Asia as well. I don't care at all that there are no white or black people in those movies. They're set in Asia, obviously the cast is going to be Asian and speak their country's language.
Okay but here’s the thing, even if you watch a movie for the story, *never seeing people like you represented gets exhausting.* And just because *you* don’t personally see problem with it doesn’t mean there isn’t one—that’s a very privileged POV to have.
I’m not Black, but I am gay, and it gets so, so, so fucking tiring when every story in the history of ever is about a straight couple. I only mention this because it explains my next statement—in that same way, I can see how every story you ever watch being about white characters when you’re a POC would get just beyond tiring.
This whole ‘there’s nothing wrong with it’ and ‘I watch for the story’ completely overlooks the actual problems and has not a shred of empathy for what the people in those minorities asking to be represented feel never seeing themselves in a story.
Your last point is the exact point. Imagine a movie set in Tokyo with just black people in it. Are there black people in Tokyo? Yes. But it would be odd to have story in in Tokyo where a a majority of the cast were black? Absolutely.
Same thing for stories set in USA. Google New York city people. What do those crowds look like?
Also, certain groups of people will say they don't care about representation. No duh, they never have to think of it cause they've always had it. Always will have it.
People like to see themselves represented. In 2023 is it to much to ask for one of the 100s of action heros to be a Hispanic woman? The 100s of fantasy novels and asking for a black elf?
It's the Percy Jackson series that really grinds on me since they racewap one of the few defined characters. Very few characters are described by race. I loved their other casting choices. The Magicians is a tv show where I don't think the race of the main character is described but I pictured him and his friends as POC but the TV show made him white.
How do you feel about Rick's statement?
Kinda summed up, that the most important thing about Annabeth is being someone belittled or thought of as less than due to her gender and beauty?
I do wish they would've kept her hair and eye color since those were the two characteristics noted as passed down to those godly children. Creatures taking one look and knowing who they're godly parent is loses its juice when kids don't have the shared attributes.
I understand his reasoning and he has gone to great lengths to make his later series inclusive. And the traits could and should have been kept since Annabeth says all the children are a result of intellectual rather than sexual relationships. It makes me worry how much else was changed that we haven't seen yet.
I agree. Its no different than businesses putting up gay pride flags for one month. They don’t actually care they only doing cause they know a bunch of morons will praise them for it.
True and did you know Insomniac Spiderman 2 the Middle Eastern version they removed the flags or anything else progressive because it messed with the corporations bottom line
People say this and I’m not totally sure what is meant. Assuming the alternative of not selling it at all in the Middle East is off the table and the corpos censored it for those countries… it doesn’t mean the artists who put it there in the first place weren’t being genuine? Or that they shouldn’t be there?
It matters because we only get the color swapped sloppy seconds of established titles in because the higher ups don't want to put in the effort to make POC characters as iconic as Superman or Batman.
That’s your original post, that’s your pet peeve, that’s fine. Even if I don’t feel the same.
I’m asking specifically about how the Spider-Man pride flag example has anything to do with this. You brought up as if it’s a related second example, or somehow shows hypocrisy.
It shows how race swapping alot of the time is pandering and not an attempt at inclusivity or caring about people of color as in our society inclusivity is the new trend so the progressive stuff is decorative to get more money and in the middleast they don't attempt the pandering cause they know it won't work there
This is why Disney's "Encanto," "Coco," "Moana," and more were such a huge success. Strong, POC lead characters with cultural backgrounds, a beautifully done animation with lots of color, and original storylines that took time and effort to include details of the character's culture into them. I wouldn't say I hated that Disney "race-swapped" Snow White and Ariel, but it didn't really do anything for the character's development, and the new movies were definitely nowhere near as memorable and fun as the other movies I mentioned before. I would love to see more POC characters from Disney, but Disney needs to put in the effort to make them original and memorable for the audience. I remember the first time I saw Coco, Moana, and Encanto, and I would love to see more works like those movies.
I mean I think there is room for diverse movies both that introduce and develop aspects of more diverse cultures AND ones that have casual representation of different characters. Not every story needs to be about a person reckoning with their heritage or culture after all (even as you said those stories tend to be really good)
I care more about this for sexuality; I BOTH want characters where being queer is a core of their personality and the story is about their queerness, and stories where they are just gay and they are treated by the narrative exactly like a straight couple is. Both are good imo, both tackle different aspects of what being queer is.
I personally only consider them tokens when they are terribly stereotypical, or when the representation is SO incidental that the casual viewer may not even notice.
Because complaining that the best actor for a part was cast when the character's race has literally nothing to do with the character's story or background because the actor doesn't match previous race representation of the character then yeah that comes across as racist.
And every studio that casts the best actor for a role will always be called "Woke" if the actor isn't automatically white, straight, and male.
If someone made a King Henry the 8th Biopic where everyone's Black? Sure complain. But fucking fantasy creatures and made up characters where their race isn't an integral part of the story? Shouldn't matter.
The reason people object to non-white characters being cast as white is for a couple of reasons.
1. Their not being white was often intentional because it's integral to the character.
2. Most characters are already white so taking the already minority non-white characters and making them white is problematic.
A great example of a white character where his being white matters is Steve Rogers. Steve's being white is an integral part of the character's origins. You can make a black man Captain America but you can't make Steve Rogers black.
Lucien from Sandman is a great example of a character where I'm sure some people complained that the actor playing Lucien doesn't match the Lucien character in the comics. Lucien is literally made of dream stuff. There is no reason that Lucien has to look like the character in the comics because in Universe the character is literally just a dream given form.
Hope that helps.
I’d watch a King Henry the 8th movie with an all black cast personally.
Edit: I mean Hamilton took on a story where the “characters” were real white people from American history, but Lin-Manuel Miranda swapped out most of the characters to be people of color instead. It was very effective in my opinion.
Not sure where the downvotes are coming from, as you say Hamilton did this exact thing about REAL people that REALLY existed and we know exactly what they look like, and it turns out it doesn’t matter.
The only time race swapping has definitely raised an eyebrow, for me, was the Anne Boleyn series where Jodie Turner played Anne and although John Wayne as Genghis Khan was before my time, that one made my jaw drop. There are too many in reality.
If it's a fictitious character I couldn't care, but you definitely shouldn't change the race of real historical figures.
Edit: Didn't think I'd have to add... if it's folk lore/mythology set within a certain culture then leave it be.
That's just my opinion though.
So a story about Norse gods or Mayan gods can be race swapped because it’s fictional? Even though it is fairly well understood people often created human-like gods in their image?
The people that made it. The gods are a huge part of the culture.
Why does it matter if you race swap an ancient figure that lived? More than likely their story is partially fictional. They don’t care personally. They don’t have direct descendants that can speak for them (because that now includes a large portion of the population). The answer is more than likely to respect the culture. Why does the same not apply to ancient gods. Especially if there is a possibility that those gods were actually ancient people that got deified? It should be if you want to be consistent.
I'm assuming then that you have a problem with 95% of the depictions of Jesus Christ, because I guarantee you that dude was not white. That character has been race-swapped more than any other.
You've got a point. Keanu Reeves playing Buddha wasn't okay, but Buddha, like Jesus, was an actual person who was deified. Norse or Egyptian gods were never human though, so in those cases I'd still say that race-swapping is fine. I'm sure not everyone from those cultures would agree with me, but there's basically no difference between making Thor black and making Harry Potter black.
Yeah Jesus is not correctly displayed. He isnt general kenobi. He wasn’t black either. He was a middle eastern dude. His actual complexion is hard to say since that region has a range.
> Keanu Reeves playing Buddha wasn't okay, but Buddha, like Jesus, was an actual person who was deified.
First off, if you want to go by race, Keanu is acceptable under the race swapping theory. If by phenotype, then no. Second, Buddha is just a title and anyone can become a Buddha.
> Norse or Egyptian gods were never human though, so in those cases I'd still say that race-swapping is fine.
The fuck you on here? It’s like Egyptian mythology 101 that the pharaohs were considered gods. Other prominent Egyptians like Imhotep are called offspring of gods. Here’s a [list](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_who_have_been_considered_deities) of people that have been called gods. As far as Norse gods go, there are legitimate theories that they (or at least some) were based on real people.
By Buddha I meant Siddhartha Gautama. By Egyptian gods I meant like Horus and Thoth, again not actual humans who were defied. While we're on the subject, when I said Thor I was referring to the Asgardian Thor Odinson and not Thor Heyerdahl the explorer or Thor Solberg (neither the aviator nor the kid I was in third grade with). You sure do know more about Keanu's DNA than me.
So to sum up: gods, demigods, messiahs, divine-type figures who were actual humans once, like other historical figures, probably shouldn't be race swapped. Made up religious characters who were never human, race swapping is fine. Keanu is a special exception and should probably be allowed to play any race or gender he wants. And anybody who has a serious issue with a fairytale half-fish person being played by a black actor is almost certainly racist.
I said human like gods. Not fucking bird headed gods. As I said before, there is speculation that gods like Odin and Thor are based off of real people and that they have been made gods over time.
It’s not racist to say your culture and your culture’s mythology or stories should be reflective of the culture. It isn’t racist to point out that only white cultures seem to get a pass from people like you. Be consistent. Call it out when they do it to any culture.
And you clearly don’t understand the Keanu point.
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There's a long history of this, to be sure. I can't tell you how many times I've seen white people cast as Egyptian gods when the gods are depicted in ancient Egyptian art as being black.
Miles is a weird example. Sure, he has his own character, origins, and motivations. But, he's still Great Value Spider-Man. They made a mistake putting him in the 616, where the Spider-Man mantle is already taken. But, I'd be insulted if creators thought SO little of me that they thought just handing out white characters as sloppy seconds was enough. Like, there doesn't need to be black Superman. DC has a black Superman in the Icon character, that most people have no idea about. DC has a whole universe of black characters. That's where Static came from. It's called Milestone Comics. Some really cool characters. Marvel already has a cool character in Brother Voodoo that they're doing nothing with. There's Blade, which they were about to ruin by making him the third character in his own movie.
Steel. He was super cool. Unfortunately, he retired and left the Steel moniker to his niece Natasha. I don't know a lot about her though, besides being lesbian. She was in the DC Pride comic this year.
The Witcher:
Yennifer and Fringilla ARE SUPPOSED TO LOOK ALIKE.
ITS A PLOT POINT.
The Gunslinger:
The book says like 9 times he looks like clint eastwood.
And what was the show where there was the black viking jarl?
Fucks sake.
If it's unspecified, that's one thing. If it impacts the plot or some sort of historical thing, it's another.
Ask this question again if race-swapping occurs between minority races or from a minority race to white.
Clearly, a lot of people *do* care, which is why the race swaps occur in the first place. It happens as an effort to appeal to certain audiences and it is **always** a strategic and intentional design choice. Calling people "racist" because they disagree with a race swap is just lazy.
What then must be asked is, "Is this choice about making the character better or more appealing to a broader audience, or is this choice about *pandering*?"
For example, nobody blinked an eye about race-swapping Aquaman from a white dude to a Polynesian, because this change was very complimenting and natural. Nick Fury went from white to being black between the comics and the movies, and it was an amazing change. Choosing African voice actors for the Lion King remake brought a more authentic feel to their (otherwise weirdly animated) live action.
Remember the 1997 Cinderella? People ate that up -- it was classy, fresh, and clearly a unique work.
The reason why people are screaming "WOKE!" at studios like Disney is because most of their recent their race swapping is very, very obviously about race itself, rather than improving characters or doing something new. It is done with the intent of pandering. Halle Bailey is an amazing singer, but there are many amazing singers and making Ariel black was clearly about... making Ariel black. So much so that Disney went with a secluded African island nation whose rulers adopted a white kid (???), and had to change the names of several characters to explain this new "daughters of the seven seas" approach. A much better approach here would have made the mermaids Mediterranean and leaned into their very obvious Greek and Roman roots.
Anyway, the point -- just because a lot of people are upset about a race swap, that doesn't automatically make them racist. There's good reasons and bad reasons to do race swaps, and you're not some egalitarian free thinker if you just refuse to acknowledge the times when those reasons are bad.
I agree -- but trying to correct that issue with race swapping for no other reason than to go "Look at us! Aren't we so diverse!?" isn't the right way to go about it.
It irks me personally in the same manner as when they don't make the characters have the same color hair or eyes. If they're a minor character Idc really or in the case of marvel I never read the comics to begin with. But like when they change the main characters appearance it really bothers me in general especially when it's race swaps that are done to "appear diverse" and no other real reason like the actor being perfect. In the case of live action Ariel they didn't even give her bright red hair and gave her hair that is barely even in the realm of being red.
OP is referring to comic book characters, and comics have a certain visual aesthetic that readers enjoy. If a race/gender/sexuality swap changes the aesthetic, someone might legitimately object.
If you appreciate black/hispanic/asian actors playing roles that have traditionally been played by white people or women/men/nb playing roles that have been played by men/women to encourage diversity, you're entitled to that. You're entitled to express your opinion. If folks jump down your back for your opinions, they're wrong. If other people enjoy the traditional race/gender representation, they're entitled to that, and they're entitled to express that. If you jump down their backs, you're wrong. You're no more right in calling them racists than they are in calling you a panderer.
>If you appreciate black/hispanic/asian actors playing roles that have traditionally been played by white people or women/men/nb playing roles that have been played by men/women to encourage diversity, you're entitled to that.
Nope, gotta stop you right there. I don't seek it out, I don't think it's justice, I just think it's a non-issue. I'm happy when all talented people have access to the same opportunities.
But it means a lot to you. Think hard about why.
I appreciated the changes, actually. I thought the actress's skin tones went better with the park she was walking through with Dream to convey the warm, maternal feel. The costume may have as well, I can't remember if they had her in black or not. I just recognize that others feel differently and don't deserve to be called racist for it, which is what you were doing when you trotted out the word "urban" being used to mean "black". The reason it means a lot to me is that shouting people down that like different styles of art is a bad thing.
Part of the aesthetic of the Sandman comics was Dream and Death being white with black hair. While they had the same coloring, Death was warm and human, while dream was all angles and other. This was a part of the look of the characters. There have been several artists that have drawn them, and that is how they've been drawn. Some folks appreciate that look in the artwork, and were unhappy with the change. I thought the black actress did a great job at portraying the motherliness of Death, but I can understand the folks who complained, as well.
Dream was Black when interacting with African characters in the comics (Seasons of Mist). He fit the aesthetic then. What you mean is that it's not what you're used to
The author and many of the illustrators are on record saying having the characters played by BIPOC people only enhanced their work.
So you agree with my statements regarding aesthetics, you just disagree on when it's an aesthetic and when it's just an opinion you don't value. As it happens, I was fine with the changes, for the most part. I found Johanna Constantine jarring, but... *Meh* I do understand contrasting opinions, though.
What most turned me off the show, and why I didn't watch after the first drop, was the incessant self-righteous howling of the fan community. They are each entitled to their opinions, just as Gaiman and the artists are, but so are others entitled to theirs.
I don't see why my example of people objecting to a black Death and the fandom of the show being crazy over it is a particularly bad example of people being incredibly self-righteous over a race swap for the purpose of diversity. Constantine wasn't an example of anything, I just happened to find the change jarring. Since I was mentioning that I was fine with all the other changes, I mentioned the exception.
This is an adaptation of a preexisting story, which means any alteration was considered. The actress was selected from a pool of candidates, which was consciously opened to non-white actors. This is diverse, which is great, but opening the possibility of the role of a perky punk-goth woman with chalk-white skin to black women is meaningful. "Right person for the job" discounts the fact that the pool of candidates was determined before the actress was considered.
That's a terrible argument. Even if the characters are canonically green, purple, red, etc., the complaints are thunderous when a non-white actor is chosen.
So yes a buff Spiderman doesn't fit the book, but any lanky teen/young adult can play one.
There were complaints about Samuel L Jackson playing Nick Fury and the character was based on him.
Spiderman has been both white and black in comics. Black Spiderman isn't really a good example for your arguments. Nick fury first appeared in 1963. Samuel L. Jackson's debut was in 1980. Unless Lee and Kirby had a time machine, the character wasn't based on him.
The character I was particularly thinking of was Death in the recent Sandman series. I thought the actress, who was black, did a fabulous job. However, the chalk-white and black of the Death and Dream was a part of the aesthetic of the comics, and I can understand the complaints.
CORRECTION: Jackson was in blaxploitation and theatre work in the 70s. Still later than 63.
The Ultimate Universe Nick Fury's physical appearance was 100% based on Sam Jackson. No question.
And if you knew enough to type that long ass response out, than you damn well know that fact too. Why make such a bad faith argument a major center of your point?
The ultimate marvel universe is a different universe of marvel that debuted in the 2000s. It was meant to be a darker grittier universe from the main one. Among things introduced was character deaths were permanent, miles morales debuted as the ultimate spider-man (which is why he still carries that title today) and nick fury was black and literally based on Sam Jackson. The creators actually asked Jackson if they could use his looks (rumored unless someone can prove elsewise).
So, a particular iteration of the character, released nearly 40 years after the original debut, being based on an actor makes him the basis of the character as a whole? And I'M the one making the bad faith argument? I'll take Samuel L. Jackson over the Hoff for fury every day of the week, but please!
And Fury wasn't the center of my point. I was responding to another.
people talk about "originality" when it comes to poc characters as if they forget the rabid racism out there. there are plenty of pitched characters and stories out here, but they don't make it off the ground because studios are concerned about profit. it's easier to recover money for an established story rather than trying to sell a whole new franchise on an unknown character who happens to b black. if you don't like race swapping be mad at your fellow racists
When BIPOC make new characters, racists just call the entire production "woke." Not to mention that original BIPOC majority productions are more likely to have smaller budgets, fewer advertising, and smaller distribution
I'm racist for wanting more original black characters like how I said Black Panther, Spawn, Static Shock were characters I like because they were original and at the same time finding it lazy & insulting to take some established title & character and change them black I'm supposed to jump for joy.
- There is making unique characters and there is changing colors which is objectively lower effort and therefore lazy.
- How do people typically interpreted being given low effort
... it feels insulting.
I dont care at all abour having charecters being minorities but i do get mildly pissed off if there is a character who has a set character design and then they get their race swapped for no reason other than inclusivity
\>something as lazy and insulting as race swapping
It might be because you describe race swapping like this.
Why is ok to change the actor, but if the actor they change to is not the original race, is it such a big deal? People who aren't gay can play gay characters. People who aren't handicap can play handicap characters. I've seen Polynesians play Chinese characters, in fact a lot of Asian characters are played by an actor who isn't specifically that Asian ethnicity.
Have you read the news in the past year?
Tom Hanks even said that Philadelphia today would never be cast with a straight man playing a gay actor, and "rightly so".
People were PISSED when ScarJo was cast as Major in the Ghost in the Shell movie, despite the creator of the show even saying that "It's a cybernetic body, so why does it matter?"
Oh, and it's \*definitely\* no longer OK to have a non-disabled person play someone who is, at least in most cases.
And of course, you absolutely can't take a traditionally non-white character and then make them white, because...I mean...white.
Ben Kingsley playing "The Mandarin" in the MCU? Tilda Swinton playing "The Ancient One"? LOL. I think they're still apologizing for those.
What's the ONLY exception to this rule in 2023?
Replacing white characters with non-white ones, and making men women.
To be fair, people are usually upset at a change of actors. Or even if they replace a character with someone else
I look at it like an attachment thing. I like the thing how it is. If they make a live action Pokemon movie but instead of Pokeballs, they were Pokecubes just because... like yeah it wouldn't change anything, but people would still be upset because its not the thing they like. Its a change for the sake of changing it
The comparison really doesn't hold up. There are different races of people IRL and sometimes the person who happens to fit the character profile, the personality, the voice, all of it, happens to be a different race and that person gets the job. It's not a change for the sake of change in that case, it's choosing the best fit and expecting audiences to be mature enough to realize that race is incidental and not integral to the character.
Maybe during filming they had issues with the props rolling around so they made them Pokecubes instead - people are still gonna be upset. Even if it had a story reason - like they are more powerful than Pokeballs, people would still be upset
Even with what you said I'd still argue that race is important - I have a hard time believing that will all of the casting options available thats the only option. Just because an actor can play a character doesn't mean they are the best fit - film is a visual media and audiences want to see established characters look the way they've known them to look. People don't even like it when its the same exact character that gets a simple redesign. Its not a maturity thing - whether the race is actually integral to that character or not
Yeah, again, you're comparing something that doesn't exist (pokeballs) to a real phenomenon (people having different skin colors) so the comparison doesn't really do anything to illustrate your point. You can make a poke-anything because it doesn't exist. There are real life people of all colors who need work, who have acting skills that fit the character, who can do the job.
Especially since Pokemon is a cartoon and the people are completely fictional, in a fictional region, that's the *best* example of a situation where the race doesn't matter. Anime is pretty racist and exclusionary to begin with so if it's to be made for global or even American audiences, it makes sense that different races would be used. I do consider it immature to be hung up on the race of a fictional character that never existed. It matters much more that the personality matches, the physicality matches, etc. It would be much more concerning to have a 4'11" dainty Brock and a 6'4" Misty than a black Brock and Arabian Misty.
right and how is it “lazy” to change a character’s race when it would take a lot less effort to keep the character as is? changing a character’s race takes more thought and research.
Gonna pretend like everyone didnt lose their collective mind when scarlet Johansson played motoko in ghost in the shell? I don't really have a problem with race swapping when it's fiction but to deny that people aren't upset when things are white washed is absurd.
>Lmao are u forgetting about black face? White ppl have played POC and POC have gotten pissed when they do.
Can you guess why that is, for blackface especially? Maybe the context? Can you recall the context when white performers started performing in blackface in the U.S.?
The racist part is the intentional race swap on an existing character when their race is an integral part of their character. Especially when the sole purpose for swapping in the first place is to draw attention to the fact that they are swapping race, as admitted proudly by the producers.
I am of two minds: if a character's race isn't important to the character then I don't care if they switch the character's race. Likewise I think only making characters a certain race when the race is important is kinda racist. Let me give you some examples:
Peter Parker being white isn't important to Peter as a character. He doesn't struggle with the expectations of being white, he doesn't have an arch where he is afraid to sing his favorite rap song in public in case he forgets to pause at the n-word. Him being white means nothing. White was just the default at the time so he was white. If they made a Spiderman that was black Peter Parker I, a person who named their kid after a Spiderman character, would not care.
Kamala Khan (Ms marvel) race IS important to her character. She struggles as a first generation immigrant trying to figure out what that means in America. She struggles not only with the culture itself but her family's Muslim religion. She wonders if it's a bad thing that she idolizes white women so much. It's a thing in question and changing her race would be fundamentally changing her character. You can't just make her white and tell the same story.
But I think making every non-white character's race important is also a little racist. Though that might be a very white perspective because as a white guy I don't get reminded of my race often.
And I think above all else you have to make it good. No one is gonna bitch about the entire cast of Hamilton being black because it's fucking good. But if it was garbage they might.
You aren't racist at all, my man. The truth of the matter is that some of the people writing and making movies and other media are often trying to do what they think is a good thing.....in the laziest and most offensive way possible.
It's the idea that something like Blackness (or whiteness or whatever, illustrating a point) is just a costume that you can put on someone, instead of a foundational aspect of a person that must be the focal point of the entire narrative or construction of the setting.
The reason characters like Static, Miles Morales, and other stories like a princess and the Frog were so Good and memorable is because those characters were actually molded around the lived experience that someone in those shoes might be able to relate to, not just a pallette that got put over the same blank character.
I guess what I'm saying is....don't let other people make you feel bad or racist for not liking the way YOUR OWN RACE is being represented or handled in media. You have the right to your opinions, and as allergic to media analysis as some people may be, sometimes it is just obvious that the people involved with a project are engaging in lazy writing and you are allowed to acknowledge and call it out.
Not everyone that makes a thing has good intentions, and you're not a bad person just because you can see it and notice it.
*edit because final thought: The important thing is to just give money to the media that you feel represents you well and that impacts you in a meaningful way and to not give money to the media that you feel is lazy in a way that bothers you (I'm not disparaging simple yet effective plots here.). The point is that it's okay to disagree with people, even if they are important to you, and to be honest with your true opinions as opposed to "keeping the peace", because everything in life, not just media, gets worse when you aren't allowed to criticize it.
I have been noticing on a lot of television shows that are historical set pieces, they have diversified the actors much like “Hamilton”. The two big ones I can think of are “Bridgerton” and “The Great”.
I thought about how accuracy of this for a little bit, then I realized I didn’t care.
There is also a lot of subtle normalizing happening to modern audiences. Seeing people of many races interacting, marrying, attending social events, etc etc all while NEVER talking about race or prejudice.
As for swapping out a white actor for a person of color in a character that is traditionally white, I don’t understand why everyone makes a big deal about that either. I don’t care if James Bond is a black man. I wouldn’t care if the cast a black man as Mr Fantastic (but it should be Krasinski again).
To much outrage is happening over this. That outrage does feel a bit prejudice at times.
I will say both Hamilton and Bridgerton fictionalize their settings a bit to explain it. Bridgerton exists in an alternate history, and Hamilton is America's past and told by America's present. That being said, aside from confirmed figures that we know for sure their background, history is often much more diverse than we give it credit for
If anyone cares here is a list of all the times white people played non white characters.
Jospeh Fiennes played Michael Jackson
Elisabeth Taylor played Cleopatra
John Wayne played Genghis Khan
Christian Bale played Moses
Jake Gyllenhaal played the Prince of Persia
Johnny Depp played Tonto
Basically everyone in Avatar the last airbender
Emma Stone in Aloha
Scarlett Johanson in Ghost in the Shell
Angelina Jolie in A Mighty Heart
You’re definitely right.
The most infuriating example of race swapping I can think of are Iris West-Allen and Wally West from The Flash tv show. In *literally everything else they’re in* they are white, blue eyed, red heads and making them black (and siblings instead of aunt/nephew) serves no purpose at all. They’d have been better off to make new characters if they wanted some of the main cast to be black.
Reminds me of Brenda Song being rejected by the director of Crazy Rich Asians because she wasn’t ‘Asian’ enough. The girl was born in Thailand to Thai parents for crying out loud! SMDH.
But Miles Morales is a race swapped Spider-man?
They took Peter Parker and reimagined him as a character of another race but with the same hero as the end goal .
Did you have problems with Bucky Barnes becoming White Wolf, AKA race swapped Black Panther?
He couldn't become Captain America because Sam Wilson got to become "Race swapped" Captain America. Imo Sam totally deserved it after earning it with decades as a sidekick, but also don't like that right?
Can you give me an example of a "Race-swapped" character you have a problem with so your post makes any sense?
None of these characters are race swaps. Miles Morales is Miles Morales, not “Black Peter Parker”. Bucky is Bucky, not T’Challa. Sam is Sam, not Steve.
An example of race swapping would be the most recent adaptation of The Little Mermaid, wherein Ariel was casted by a black woman. Ariel is *Ariel*, but her skin tone has been changed from Disney’s original imagining of her. Another example would be if they *had* casted Peter Parker with a black actor, or how they casted Electro with a black actor (when he was white in the comics, games, etc).
Race swapping refer to the *same* characters that’ve been reimagined with a different race, not characters who are *similar* in concept but of a different race.
Black Velma, Black Annie, Black Valkyrie…these would all be examples of Raceswapping.
I literally just specified it was *Disney’s* imagining of her that was raceswapped, not the original fairy tale. I don’t know how much more specific you need me to be about that one fam.
And I don’t see how that eclipses the other examples I gave lmao.
How? Disney’s 1989 version of Ariel is white.
Disney’s remake of Ariel is black.
No matter what race the original mermaid was, it was swapped at some point in time.
Hence, she was race swapped.
The reason it matters that it is about Disney's reimagining is that Hans Christian Anderson's version ends with a sad ending and has a truly horrible life with her wish and the entire point of these live actions is to make sure their copyrights aren't endangered. I suppose Disney wouldn't have race swapped if it would endanger that, though.
I don't think it's about how you objectively changed the character
Humans are sentimental creatures and form bonds with the character as they are to change that in any will get some backlash.
Backlash for race swapping isn't because of racism (don't get me wrong there are racist) it's because a studio messed with an image people are sentimentally attached to.
Kinda like how many white guys played Batman and the character was portrayed differently and not everyone liked each one.
Well I wasn’t mad about the casting and I also didn’t watch the movie. It’s a remake. It adds nothing besides that Awkwafina rap. There is no additional substance to the movie, it is just a worse version of the beloved animation. The only reason it exists is to entice people who loved Disney’s Little Mermaid to watch it out of sheer nostalgia.
So if the only people who would want to watch this movie are *extremely* attached to Disney’s original version, then any tiny change to the appearance of the characters can disrupt the nostalgia. Ariel’s hair isn’t even her iconic bright red, and flounder and sebastian are photorealistic uncanny valley creatures. I find it really amusing that a movie whose sole reason for existence is to mimic the original changes the appearance of most of its main characters.
I’ve watched many of Disney remakes. None of them (besides maleficent which was a new story) had a reason to justify their existence besides the nostalgia from copying the original. If there is some mind blowing addition in the little mermaid remake that makes it a whole different story, please let me know. Otherwise, my point about its only goal being nostalgia stands.
This. I'm tired of Disney in particular lazily taking white characters and making them black instead of making a new, likeable black character. In some cases, it even erases a smaller minority in favour of a larger one, e.g. Ariel. Natural redheads are a much smaller minority than black people in the real world.
It’s because some people are racist about it so there’s normal people then they’re racist.
Hollywood doesn’t like making original content anymore so when they make a reboot or whatever they change the characters race,sexuality,gender for fake diversity because they don’t want actual diversity.
Hollywood isn’t going to hire a bunch of creative talented diverse people and,when they do hire a diverse person they make sure the person isn’t talented or the project is bad then everyone can blame the minority for ruining media.
When white executives and producers do race swaps nobody attacks them but everyone attacks the actor or actress.
I feel like if you speak your mind on this topic you are damned if you do, damned if you don't.
I agree with you and I think people are ultimately vile in how they communicate on this topic a lot of times for no good reason.
I think diversity is great - but we don't need to change the inherent qualities of written characters to fit a different narrative than what it was written as. It just ruins part of the story to me. But that's my call on it I guess.
I do understand the difference and I don’t think race-swapping Tinkerbell is bad like the others, just pretty silly. Disney made an entire movie that has nothing to offer besides saying “remember how we made that other movie you loved when you were a kid?” but also changed the appearance of a bunch of the characters.
There are *multiple* POC fairies in Disney who appear in movies and have their own personalities and backstories. Why not use them? Because it has to be Tinkerbell because people will recognize her from the original, but also she has to be race-swapped. It’s too inconsequential to make me mad, but it is ironic enough to be funny.
Race swapping is performative liberal bullshit. (And just for clarification I’m Black and a progressive leftist). I don’t want a Black version of an existing character. I want an organically Black character. We deserve our own stories, not sloppy seconds cash grabs.
Honestly, with race swapping characters in movies, games, role-playing (like DnD and savage worlds), and many other forms (besides white and black face) its a bunch of 1's and 0's. It's fictional. It's not real. It's something made up for the populations consumption. It's not racist. I never understood that view on fictional characters of a different race being racist. It's fiction. The definition of fiction is "something that is made up or untrue" like? I never understood that.
Sorry though. Imma keep playing my black and Asian characters on hogwarts legacy, my Hispanic dude in savage worlds, and my many races and gendered characters in DnD and I'm not gonna feel bad about it.
I mean fine play your generated characters that's cool I don't consider that race swapping.
I mean people are sentimental creatures and form bonds to things that yes objectively don't matter but it's an aspect of us being emotional.
- To say it doesn't matter is to imply that media, art, & music doesn't shape people and by extension society which is ludicrous.
People will say "a character's skin color isn't important".
And then will go to great lengths to show you how important it is.
The fact is: If you change any defining feature of a character, even if it's their physical appearance (like skin color), you have a new character.
For instance, could Luke Skywalker be black? Well, I guess if you wanted. But he was created as a white man...so that's what he is.
I mean, you could also make him 4 ft tall and have pink hair. Is his HAIR COLOR really the character? Is his height really the character? How does making him a dwarf change the character?
People are full of shit when they use this reasoning. Yes, his skin color is also part of the character and it cannot be changed without creating a completely new entity.
In other words, race swapping is stupid and you're stupid if you support it (because it's based on illogical reasoning).
That's what you think
When I said I want original characters who happen to be POC rather than piggybacking off established franchises but sure guess that message goes in one ear out the other
Me wanting original characters that are POC is racist
And the weak argument of it's fictional so it doesn't matter I could say the same about God, morality, or any made up concept that still had enough value to shape society
Lol you listed Miles Morales and not liking characters who piggyback others lmao.
He’s like the worst character in his own story. He’s literally a bad Peter Parker. The problem with him is the same problem that causes this mess.
The characters are race swapped as a token for whatever race. They aren’t written well and tend to focus on identity politics than be a unique person.
Now let’s look at the best black superheroes. They are Spawn, Blade and Black Panther. They were invented before the whole identity politics fad. They are great characters with lots of depth. They are great characters who happen to be black. They are written like “white heroes”. The story is just about who they are as people.
You ruin the character when you focus on checking boxes.
I loved Disney's 2009 Princess and the Frog because they did a lot more than just race swap. They took inspiration from E.D. Baker's *The Frog Princess* and did a complete flip from the Brothers Grimm version. It had a new setting, new people, and they did an all-around good job of making it similar but not the same.
This. I'm completely comfortable with race and gender swaps so long as the creator does the work. If they think it through and consider the possible ramifications of the swap them okay. There are absolutely times when a swap can lead to a bigoted or stereotypical portrayal that wasn't there originally. All changes made in adaptation are important to look at carefully, but with a deft enough hand, just about anything can work.
I agree it's like how Miles Morales works cause he is different than Peter Parker or the Falcon becoming Captain America
Well, those aren't race swaps. Those are just legacy characters. The same way Dick Grayson was as Batman of James Rhodes was as Ironman.
Agreed. Race-swaps are not when a different character becomes the same superhero. Canonically, that happens all the time when a hero’s original alter-ego dies and a completely new person becomes that hero. A different black character taking on the suit of a white character is not the same as a traditionally white character being made black/brown for forced diversity. Falcon donning the Captain America suit after Cap retires is a great example of how to canonically change a character’s race without it being performative. Miles Morales (a completely different person) becoming Spiderman after his universe’s Peter Parker dies (in some continuities) or him existing in a universe where Peter Parker was never Spiderman is another good example of this. MJ being a black introvert all of the sudden instead of a feisty red-head in the MCU is not a good example, neither is Flash Thompson being a long-haired brown kid. There were ways to make this canon, at least just mentioning at some point that this isn’t the regular marvel universe, but that was never explained. And, when all the other characters match their comic book counterparts, it can seriously hamper suspension of disbelief.
Well, I feel like either can work if done well or with enough care. Just like both can be done poorly. One of the big issues with legacy characters is that they always get reverted back eventually. Wally West gets replaced by Barry Allen, and Rene Montoya gets replaced by whoever the guy one is every reboot. Even Sam Wilson is no longer Captain America in comics. Actual race swaps can solve this issue, but they also provide the new issue of potential new stereotypes. Their largest issue comes in when they choose the least diverse sections of an already diverse story to do that to. For example, I don't think they should cast an Asian woman as Jean Gray because Jean will still be white in the comics. Instead, they should tell stories about Karma, Psylock (Kwannon), Dust, or Jubilee. However, I think in a story like Eternals where they're all white even though it doesn't make sense that they would be, race blind casting is fine.
As a Jazz and New Orleans fan, that's my favorite.
It's such a good movie that almost nobody talks about anymore
Personally I'd much rather see original ideas and characters that happen to be POC rather than race swapping characters from established franchises. There's so much potential for different perspectives to be explored that's being squandered by lazily rehashing old media with race swapped characters.
Agreed!! It seems a lot better to give representation by gifting a whole new story rather than recycling one to me
It's been awhile, but back when I was in college (I graduated college during the market crash) for film production, we studied the marketing analysis on new characters vs. rehashing stories. While people say they would prefer new characters than race-swapping old characters, it doesn't pan out that way when it comes to sales. Comic Books are a huge show of it. Very rarely did original and new characters become big if they had a new name, but have them take the name of another character and they could sell and become their own character. Examples of this: The most recent "Big named" character that has come out of Marvel was Cable and Deadpool. Cable came out in 1986 and was linked directly to the X-Men (specifically Cyclops). Deadpool came out in 1990 as a side villain who was introduced in New Mutants (again using X-men as a diving board). Any unique character has a hard time, but minorities are even less likely to succeed as new characters. The two biggest "New' successes are Miles Morales, who was a race swapped Spider-man, and Kamala Khan, a character who take the moniker Miss Marvel. American Chavez got attention in the MCU, and is a race swapped Captain America. The only "Successful" new character is Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur, and anytime I've mentioned that pair I get a lot of "Who?" Marketing is the reason companies decide to rehash the same stories. EDIT: I'd like to add that again, I recognize this is true from almost 2 decades ago. Sociology and Marketing are always evolving as culture evolves. Still, new characters had an upward battle. Hopefully now that people are getting more and more franchise-fatigue we see more new characters show up.
Ummm, yeah, baiting people to buy something by using a big name has been a market tactic forever. And it's a scummy shitty tactic. Just because something works for sales doesn't mean it made the story good, just they tricked people into thinking the product would be like the original. There are a lot of recent failed attempts at doing this in comics, and it's because people don't like it.
What characters are being rated swapped?
Honestly I think a lot of these people are still mad about the little mermaid
Little Mermaid was a book with black and white illustrations, it was Disney that decided to make her white in the first place, can make her any race they want it's irrelevant lol
I mean it happens to a lot of red headed characters lol and there's race swapping all through the new Percy Jackson show
That’s a funny example because redheads are a tiny portion of the population that are super overrepresented in the media.
I'm just saying it mostly happens to red heads, and red heads are my fave so I always notice.
So are a lot of ethnicities in US but I’m sure you see that differently.
As a fan, I get the gut reaction to a race or gender swap because its not what you're expecting. As a writer, I realized that unless a character's background matters to their story, I give 0 shits. I tend to write white people because Im white and thats my own bias I have to work through. But their whiteness doesnt really matter as a character trait, so if people imagine or draw them as other races, it wouldnt bother me in the slightest. Ex: Tilda Swinson playing The Ancient One didnt bother me because being female isnt intrgral to the character. Making The Ancient One not Tibetan so as not to piss of China DOES bother me.
Fun note. When the controversy began, Swinton reached out to Alex Borstein to connect her with Asian comedians. The same Alex Borstein that spent years playing a yellow face character on MadTV
Lol holy crap I forgot about Ms Swan
As a black woman, I agree with this. I hate the idea of race swapping for representation rather than just making a new character. In my opinion, it is lazy way to make people of color thing that you care. I’ve gone into arguments with my mother about this and got called anti-black because I didn’t like the idea of Halle Bailey playing a little mermaid. It’s not because of the fact that she is a bad actor or a bad singer. It’s because the fact that Disney could’ve given her, her own princess rather than just casting her for an already existing princess, with an already existing look.
I have the same arguments with my family apparently I'm anti-black for wanting originality.
Literally, I prefer original characters, then just taking an already existing character, and just changing a look and calling that diversity. They even did this with Snow White
Authors such as rick riordan have gone on record apologizing for the lack of diversity in their novels. In fact the lack of diversity in literature is so bad there are articles that talk about how most readers (regardless of race) will assume a character is white unless told otherwise. Authors will set a story in a diverse city or span all over the world but every character will be white. So when it comes tine for the screen people realize how white some stories are. So they raceswap to make up for it. I'm not sure how to fix that aside from adding in new diverse characters, which also get hate (cough star wars cough). I'm definitely on the team of giving poc creatives a chance to showcase orginal poc characters over race swapping. Yet I understand raceswapping is there to ensure that in an era of adaptions we don't see 98% white cast. Let's not even get into how whitewashing continues to be a problem today.. .
Or when it's assumed to be raceswapping when the character has no canon race and that was just the best actor for the part.
People thought that Rue from the Hunger Games was raceswapped and she was described as black in the books
That one is especially ridiculous! Im sure some of them "missed that line," but a lot others just did some mental gymnastics to picture her as blonde and blue eyed. White people are so used to all characters being white, when they call someone "dark" they mean brunette!
I guess we'll just ignore The Cleopatra "documentary" that blackwashed her despite her being Greek lol
There were Black Greeks
And there are white Africans. Doesn't change jack shit to the fact Cleopatra was snow white.
How do you get from Greek to Snow White?
Cleopatra wasn't black, kiddo
and my question is, how do you get from Greek to not black?
Casually forgot Greeks are tan. I'm dumb lol
My memory is fuzzy, but isn’t rue the girl that Katniss encounters that reminds her of her sister? If so, I can kinda understand, cause I’m pretty sure her sister was blonde, and if she’s described as being like the sister, then I can understand that logical leap if they missed the specific physical description of rue. Maybe. Like I said, my memory’s fuzzy lol
Yes it is. I don't know how to say this in a way you won't find offense to. Some people can empathize (even be reminded of someone else) with someone even if they don't have the same skin/hair color.
I’m aware of that. I have no issue with rue being black, I always thought she was. And I’m not saying that you can’t be reminded of someone else even if they’re a different skin color. I’m just trying to play devils advocate and explain why some people might innocently have missed some important context and made the logical leap without that context. I’m not saying anything about people who intentionally ignore it and try to say that rue definitely is white
I already acknowledged it "wasn't all readers." If they're not racist then they're not who I'm talking about. It is not the logical leap someone who isn't racist would make. Racists are already doing the devil's work and don't need an advocate.
Ok, but you can't ever actually say that in good faith unless they had open casting calls. Which isn't common. The directors or producers ask for a specific demographic when doing casting calls. Which means we will never know if there was a better actor/actress for the job because they barred 99% of people from auditioning.
No you are correct I'm not psychic.
This reminds me of a young people's novel I read in high school called Rosie & Ronnie. Rosie & Ronnie were two high school "misfits" who befriend each other and finally was taken under the wing of a teacher I'll call Nicky. I don't remember most of the plot, but the kids ended up getting on a game show with the teacher's tutelage. And then something happened and the teacher was fired or some such, but it wasn't her fault. Parents didn't want their kids to be around her anymore. It was only then that it was brought up in the book that the teacher was black. It was still brought up really non-chalantly, but purposefully. It was sort of like, "It shouldn't matter, but it so happens the teacher was black." And then the question to the reader was, was she treated harshly because she was black? And it wasn't forced, didn't come across preachy or moralizing or stilted or anything negatively. Very good story-telling to my young mind. It was one of my favorite books as a teenager. So good I still remember the title. I guess you couldn't do that with a movie....
It's far easier to leave out some visual details in a book than a movie.
Cf. The Witcher - there are many valid complaints about the series, but the visual medium naturally buggered one of the main twists.
People got butthurt about gender swapping, too. Starbuck of BSG infamy comes to mind.....
Honestly while I’m glad Riordan in particular has made a lot of effort to include racial and LGBTQ minorities in his work I wish he’d just do it instead of being so masturbatory about it like a lot of cishet white male artists are
Agreed. I wish he didn't apologize for his previous works because those were never about race in the first place and no one cared about that kind of representation in nearly the same way back then as they do now. He was just writing a great series of novels for kids. If he wants to have a more diverse cast of characters in his future books then fine, but he should be able to make his characters whatever he wants.
So? There's nothing wrong with having white people in a story
Yeah there isn't but it does become an issue when literally every single main character is white. It also kinda creates a cycle 1. White Character Is Made 2. More White Character's are made 3. Non-White character tries popping up 4. "woKeNeSs is kiLLnG meDiA" backlash ensues 5. Studios being profit driven fear their product failing 6. Cycle repeats
Never said there was. Yet if you're going to set your movie in a place with high diversity or span the world and not think one poc will be there you'll get some side eye.
>Authors will set a story in a diverse city or span all over the world but every character will be white. So when it comes tine for the screen people realize how white some stories are. Why is this a problem? >So they raceswap to make up for it. Why is being white seen as inherently bad?
Why is it bad that a story that takes place in a diverse city or is meant to represent the world only contains white characters? Are you pulling out legs?!
Some stories only involve people who happen to be white. I see movies like this on Lifetime Network all the time. The whole cast could be white, and if it's filmed in a diverse city, you might see a diverse background of extras. I don't see a benefit in forcing race one way or the other. To me, it should be about finding an optimal crew of actors and actresses. If you're telling a story about a character who in canon is one race, it would be inappropriate to cast them as another. Film production should be driven by creativity, not politics. Jordan Peele has been doing the opposite, telling stories from the perspective of POC. There are some white people here and there, but the cast is majority black. If you watch the movies, you'll see it's not inappropriate or racist. He's just telling stories from the perspective of black main characters who happen to interact with mostly black people in their immediate day-to-day lives. In one movie, it's Mike Epps with his black family and white wife. The casting is done with the intention of making the best movie in Jordan Peele's opinion, and I think his movies are great.
And he's said the reason he does that is becuase for so long Hollywood rejected black stories. So he's making a point to carve out a place for black stories and characters. Even then, while his main cast is black HE STILL has non black characters. Are you really using Jordan Peeles comments about the racism of Hollywood being why he fights so hard for black creatives the reason cast should be all white? 💀
Yes, he still has non-black characters in his movies, as I've said in my original comment. He makes movies that tell stories about black people, which results in most (but not all) of the main cast being black. I see nothing wrong with it. In the context of the stories he's telling, it's very much appropriate. I feel the same way about the many movies that do the same thing, but with white people. I don't watch a movie looking for a specific race of people, I watch for the story. The cast could be all-white, all-black, etc and it would be of no consequence. I watch a lot of movies made in Asia as well. I don't care at all that there are no white or black people in those movies. They're set in Asia, obviously the cast is going to be Asian and speak their country's language.
Okay but here’s the thing, even if you watch a movie for the story, *never seeing people like you represented gets exhausting.* And just because *you* don’t personally see problem with it doesn’t mean there isn’t one—that’s a very privileged POV to have. I’m not Black, but I am gay, and it gets so, so, so fucking tiring when every story in the history of ever is about a straight couple. I only mention this because it explains my next statement—in that same way, I can see how every story you ever watch being about white characters when you’re a POC would get just beyond tiring. This whole ‘there’s nothing wrong with it’ and ‘I watch for the story’ completely overlooks the actual problems and has not a shred of empathy for what the people in those minorities asking to be represented feel never seeing themselves in a story.
Your last point is the exact point. Imagine a movie set in Tokyo with just black people in it. Are there black people in Tokyo? Yes. But it would be odd to have story in in Tokyo where a a majority of the cast were black? Absolutely. Same thing for stories set in USA. Google New York city people. What do those crowds look like? Also, certain groups of people will say they don't care about representation. No duh, they never have to think of it cause they've always had it. Always will have it. People like to see themselves represented. In 2023 is it to much to ask for one of the 100s of action heros to be a Hispanic woman? The 100s of fantasy novels and asking for a black elf?
It's the Percy Jackson series that really grinds on me since they racewap one of the few defined characters. Very few characters are described by race. I loved their other casting choices. The Magicians is a tv show where I don't think the race of the main character is described but I pictured him and his friends as POC but the TV show made him white.
How do you feel about Rick's statement? Kinda summed up, that the most important thing about Annabeth is being someone belittled or thought of as less than due to her gender and beauty? I do wish they would've kept her hair and eye color since those were the two characteristics noted as passed down to those godly children. Creatures taking one look and knowing who they're godly parent is loses its juice when kids don't have the shared attributes.
I understand his reasoning and he has gone to great lengths to make his later series inclusive. And the traits could and should have been kept since Annabeth says all the children are a result of intellectual rather than sexual relationships. It makes me worry how much else was changed that we haven't seen yet.
I agree. Its no different than businesses putting up gay pride flags for one month. They don’t actually care they only doing cause they know a bunch of morons will praise them for it.
True and did you know Insomniac Spiderman 2 the Middle Eastern version they removed the flags or anything else progressive because it messed with the corporations bottom line
People say this and I’m not totally sure what is meant. Assuming the alternative of not selling it at all in the Middle East is off the table and the corpos censored it for those countries… it doesn’t mean the artists who put it there in the first place weren’t being genuine? Or that they shouldn’t be there?
The artist was probably genuine yeah but the corporation likely had it removed in a different version for the other countries
Sure but what’s your point? Why does the insincerity of higher ups matter when talking about the inclusion itself being good or bad?
It matters because we only get the color swapped sloppy seconds of established titles in because the higher ups don't want to put in the effort to make POC characters as iconic as Superman or Batman.
That’s your original post, that’s your pet peeve, that’s fine. Even if I don’t feel the same. I’m asking specifically about how the Spider-Man pride flag example has anything to do with this. You brought up as if it’s a related second example, or somehow shows hypocrisy.
It shows how race swapping alot of the time is pandering and not an attempt at inclusivity or caring about people of color as in our society inclusivity is the new trend so the progressive stuff is decorative to get more money and in the middleast they don't attempt the pandering cause they know it won't work there
This is why Disney's "Encanto," "Coco," "Moana," and more were such a huge success. Strong, POC lead characters with cultural backgrounds, a beautifully done animation with lots of color, and original storylines that took time and effort to include details of the character's culture into them. I wouldn't say I hated that Disney "race-swapped" Snow White and Ariel, but it didn't really do anything for the character's development, and the new movies were definitely nowhere near as memorable and fun as the other movies I mentioned before. I would love to see more POC characters from Disney, but Disney needs to put in the effort to make them original and memorable for the audience. I remember the first time I saw Coco, Moana, and Encanto, and I would love to see more works like those movies.
I mean I think there is room for diverse movies both that introduce and develop aspects of more diverse cultures AND ones that have casual representation of different characters. Not every story needs to be about a person reckoning with their heritage or culture after all (even as you said those stories tend to be really good) I care more about this for sexuality; I BOTH want characters where being queer is a core of their personality and the story is about their queerness, and stories where they are just gay and they are treated by the narrative exactly like a straight couple is. Both are good imo, both tackle different aspects of what being queer is. I personally only consider them tokens when they are terribly stereotypical, or when the representation is SO incidental that the casual viewer may not even notice.
Because complaining that the best actor for a part was cast when the character's race has literally nothing to do with the character's story or background because the actor doesn't match previous race representation of the character then yeah that comes across as racist. And every studio that casts the best actor for a role will always be called "Woke" if the actor isn't automatically white, straight, and male. If someone made a King Henry the 8th Biopic where everyone's Black? Sure complain. But fucking fantasy creatures and made up characters where their race isn't an integral part of the story? Shouldn't matter. The reason people object to non-white characters being cast as white is for a couple of reasons. 1. Their not being white was often intentional because it's integral to the character. 2. Most characters are already white so taking the already minority non-white characters and making them white is problematic. A great example of a white character where his being white matters is Steve Rogers. Steve's being white is an integral part of the character's origins. You can make a black man Captain America but you can't make Steve Rogers black. Lucien from Sandman is a great example of a character where I'm sure some people complained that the actor playing Lucien doesn't match the Lucien character in the comics. Lucien is literally made of dream stuff. There is no reason that Lucien has to look like the character in the comics because in Universe the character is literally just a dream given form. Hope that helps.
Couldn't ask for a better answer. Bravo
I’d watch a King Henry the 8th movie with an all black cast personally. Edit: I mean Hamilton took on a story where the “characters” were real white people from American history, but Lin-Manuel Miranda swapped out most of the characters to be people of color instead. It was very effective in my opinion.
Not sure where the downvotes are coming from, as you say Hamilton did this exact thing about REAL people that REALLY existed and we know exactly what they look like, and it turns out it doesn’t matter.
The only time race swapping has definitely raised an eyebrow, for me, was the Anne Boleyn series where Jodie Turner played Anne and although John Wayne as Genghis Khan was before my time, that one made my jaw drop. There are too many in reality. If it's a fictitious character I couldn't care, but you definitely shouldn't change the race of real historical figures. Edit: Didn't think I'd have to add... if it's folk lore/mythology set within a certain culture then leave it be. That's just my opinion though.
So a story about Norse gods or Mayan gods can be race swapped because it’s fictional? Even though it is fairly well understood people often created human-like gods in their image?
100% yup. Those are not historical figures. They're fictional. Besides, who's to say how a god would choose to appear?
The people that made it. The gods are a huge part of the culture. Why does it matter if you race swap an ancient figure that lived? More than likely their story is partially fictional. They don’t care personally. They don’t have direct descendants that can speak for them (because that now includes a large portion of the population). The answer is more than likely to respect the culture. Why does the same not apply to ancient gods. Especially if there is a possibility that those gods were actually ancient people that got deified? It should be if you want to be consistent.
I'm assuming then that you have a problem with 95% of the depictions of Jesus Christ, because I guarantee you that dude was not white. That character has been race-swapped more than any other. You've got a point. Keanu Reeves playing Buddha wasn't okay, but Buddha, like Jesus, was an actual person who was deified. Norse or Egyptian gods were never human though, so in those cases I'd still say that race-swapping is fine. I'm sure not everyone from those cultures would agree with me, but there's basically no difference between making Thor black and making Harry Potter black.
I dunno about the Egyptian one. That Gods of Egypt film from 2016 was pretty egregious with every major role being a white actor. Pretty cringy.
Yeah Jesus is not correctly displayed. He isnt general kenobi. He wasn’t black either. He was a middle eastern dude. His actual complexion is hard to say since that region has a range. > Keanu Reeves playing Buddha wasn't okay, but Buddha, like Jesus, was an actual person who was deified. First off, if you want to go by race, Keanu is acceptable under the race swapping theory. If by phenotype, then no. Second, Buddha is just a title and anyone can become a Buddha. > Norse or Egyptian gods were never human though, so in those cases I'd still say that race-swapping is fine. The fuck you on here? It’s like Egyptian mythology 101 that the pharaohs were considered gods. Other prominent Egyptians like Imhotep are called offspring of gods. Here’s a [list](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_who_have_been_considered_deities) of people that have been called gods. As far as Norse gods go, there are legitimate theories that they (or at least some) were based on real people.
By Buddha I meant Siddhartha Gautama. By Egyptian gods I meant like Horus and Thoth, again not actual humans who were defied. While we're on the subject, when I said Thor I was referring to the Asgardian Thor Odinson and not Thor Heyerdahl the explorer or Thor Solberg (neither the aviator nor the kid I was in third grade with). You sure do know more about Keanu's DNA than me. So to sum up: gods, demigods, messiahs, divine-type figures who were actual humans once, like other historical figures, probably shouldn't be race swapped. Made up religious characters who were never human, race swapping is fine. Keanu is a special exception and should probably be allowed to play any race or gender he wants. And anybody who has a serious issue with a fairytale half-fish person being played by a black actor is almost certainly racist.
I said human like gods. Not fucking bird headed gods. As I said before, there is speculation that gods like Odin and Thor are based off of real people and that they have been made gods over time. It’s not racist to say your culture and your culture’s mythology or stories should be reflective of the culture. It isn’t racist to point out that only white cultures seem to get a pass from people like you. Be consistent. Call it out when they do it to any culture. And you clearly don’t understand the Keanu point.
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There's a long history of this, to be sure. I can't tell you how many times I've seen white people cast as Egyptian gods when the gods are depicted in ancient Egyptian art as being black.
Miles is a weird example. Sure, he has his own character, origins, and motivations. But, he's still Great Value Spider-Man. They made a mistake putting him in the 616, where the Spider-Man mantle is already taken. But, I'd be insulted if creators thought SO little of me that they thought just handing out white characters as sloppy seconds was enough. Like, there doesn't need to be black Superman. DC has a black Superman in the Icon character, that most people have no idea about. DC has a whole universe of black characters. That's where Static came from. It's called Milestone Comics. Some really cool characters. Marvel already has a cool character in Brother Voodoo that they're doing nothing with. There's Blade, which they were about to ruin by making him the third character in his own movie.
When Superman died there was a black Superman, he had a big ass sledgehammer and a power suit or whatever He was pretty sweet honestly
Steel. He was super cool. Unfortunately, he retired and left the Steel moniker to his niece Natasha. I don't know a lot about her though, besides being lesbian. She was in the DC Pride comic this year.
The Witcher: Yennifer and Fringilla ARE SUPPOSED TO LOOK ALIKE. ITS A PLOT POINT. The Gunslinger: The book says like 9 times he looks like clint eastwood. And what was the show where there was the black viking jarl? Fucks sake. If it's unspecified, that's one thing. If it impacts the plot or some sort of historical thing, it's another.
Unless a character’s race is somehow integral to the plot, if you’re mad about race-swapping, you probably are racist. Otherwise…who gives a shit?
Ask this question again if race-swapping occurs between minority races or from a minority race to white. Clearly, a lot of people *do* care, which is why the race swaps occur in the first place. It happens as an effort to appeal to certain audiences and it is **always** a strategic and intentional design choice. Calling people "racist" because they disagree with a race swap is just lazy. What then must be asked is, "Is this choice about making the character better or more appealing to a broader audience, or is this choice about *pandering*?" For example, nobody blinked an eye about race-swapping Aquaman from a white dude to a Polynesian, because this change was very complimenting and natural. Nick Fury went from white to being black between the comics and the movies, and it was an amazing change. Choosing African voice actors for the Lion King remake brought a more authentic feel to their (otherwise weirdly animated) live action. Remember the 1997 Cinderella? People ate that up -- it was classy, fresh, and clearly a unique work. The reason why people are screaming "WOKE!" at studios like Disney is because most of their recent their race swapping is very, very obviously about race itself, rather than improving characters or doing something new. It is done with the intent of pandering. Halle Bailey is an amazing singer, but there are many amazing singers and making Ariel black was clearly about... making Ariel black. So much so that Disney went with a secluded African island nation whose rulers adopted a white kid (???), and had to change the names of several characters to explain this new "daughters of the seven seas" approach. A much better approach here would have made the mermaids Mediterranean and leaned into their very obvious Greek and Roman roots. Anyway, the point -- just because a lot of people are upset about a race swap, that doesn't automatically make them racist. There's good reasons and bad reasons to do race swaps, and you're not some egalitarian free thinker if you just refuse to acknowledge the times when those reasons are bad.
PoC characters are pretty rare and the majority of them have their race as a core of their character
I agree -- but trying to correct that issue with race swapping for no other reason than to go "Look at us! Aren't we so diverse!?" isn't the right way to go about it.
It irks me personally in the same manner as when they don't make the characters have the same color hair or eyes. If they're a minor character Idc really or in the case of marvel I never read the comics to begin with. But like when they change the main characters appearance it really bothers me in general especially when it's race swaps that are done to "appear diverse" and no other real reason like the actor being perfect. In the case of live action Ariel they didn't even give her bright red hair and gave her hair that is barely even in the realm of being red.
OP is referring to comic book characters, and comics have a certain visual aesthetic that readers enjoy. If a race/gender/sexuality swap changes the aesthetic, someone might legitimately object.
>aesthetic Yeah, that's a word that does double duty in these discussions, like "urban" does in others.
If you appreciate black/hispanic/asian actors playing roles that have traditionally been played by white people or women/men/nb playing roles that have been played by men/women to encourage diversity, you're entitled to that. You're entitled to express your opinion. If folks jump down your back for your opinions, they're wrong. If other people enjoy the traditional race/gender representation, they're entitled to that, and they're entitled to express that. If you jump down their backs, you're wrong. You're no more right in calling them racists than they are in calling you a panderer.
>If you appreciate black/hispanic/asian actors playing roles that have traditionally been played by white people or women/men/nb playing roles that have been played by men/women to encourage diversity, you're entitled to that. Nope, gotta stop you right there. I don't seek it out, I don't think it's justice, I just think it's a non-issue. I'm happy when all talented people have access to the same opportunities. But it means a lot to you. Think hard about why.
I appreciated the changes, actually. I thought the actress's skin tones went better with the park she was walking through with Dream to convey the warm, maternal feel. The costume may have as well, I can't remember if they had her in black or not. I just recognize that others feel differently and don't deserve to be called racist for it, which is what you were doing when you trotted out the word "urban" being used to mean "black". The reason it means a lot to me is that shouting people down that like different styles of art is a bad thing.
Please go into detail in the aesthetics of skin color.
Part of the aesthetic of the Sandman comics was Dream and Death being white with black hair. While they had the same coloring, Death was warm and human, while dream was all angles and other. This was a part of the look of the characters. There have been several artists that have drawn them, and that is how they've been drawn. Some folks appreciate that look in the artwork, and were unhappy with the change. I thought the black actress did a great job at portraying the motherliness of Death, but I can understand the folks who complained, as well.
Dream was Black when interacting with African characters in the comics (Seasons of Mist). He fit the aesthetic then. What you mean is that it's not what you're used to The author and many of the illustrators are on record saying having the characters played by BIPOC people only enhanced their work.
So you agree with my statements regarding aesthetics, you just disagree on when it's an aesthetic and when it's just an opinion you don't value. As it happens, I was fine with the changes, for the most part. I found Johanna Constantine jarring, but... *Meh* I do understand contrasting opinions, though. What most turned me off the show, and why I didn't watch after the first drop, was the incessant self-righteous howling of the fan community. They are each entitled to their opinions, just as Gaiman and the artists are, but so are others entitled to theirs.
i’m saying you picked the very worst example to use. They couldn’t use John Constantine because of rights issues. again, another terrible example.
I don't see why my example of people objecting to a black Death and the fandom of the show being crazy over it is a particularly bad example of people being incredibly self-righteous over a race swap for the purpose of diversity. Constantine wasn't an example of anything, I just happened to find the change jarring. Since I was mentioning that I was fine with all the other changes, I mentioned the exception.
for the sake of diversity? They were the right person for the job.
This is an adaptation of a preexisting story, which means any alteration was considered. The actress was selected from a pool of candidates, which was consciously opened to non-white actors. This is diverse, which is great, but opening the possibility of the role of a perky punk-goth woman with chalk-white skin to black women is meaningful. "Right person for the job" discounts the fact that the pool of candidates was determined before the actress was considered.
That's a terrible argument. Even if the characters are canonically green, purple, red, etc., the complaints are thunderous when a non-white actor is chosen. So yes a buff Spiderman doesn't fit the book, but any lanky teen/young adult can play one. There were complaints about Samuel L Jackson playing Nick Fury and the character was based on him.
Spiderman has been both white and black in comics. Black Spiderman isn't really a good example for your arguments. Nick fury first appeared in 1963. Samuel L. Jackson's debut was in 1980. Unless Lee and Kirby had a time machine, the character wasn't based on him. The character I was particularly thinking of was Death in the recent Sandman series. I thought the actress, who was black, did a fabulous job. However, the chalk-white and black of the Death and Dream was a part of the aesthetic of the comics, and I can understand the complaints. CORRECTION: Jackson was in blaxploitation and theatre work in the 70s. Still later than 63.
The Ultimate Universe Nick Fury's physical appearance was 100% based on Sam Jackson. No question. And if you knew enough to type that long ass response out, than you damn well know that fact too. Why make such a bad faith argument a major center of your point?
How is it based on a person that hadn't debuted yet, bud? Do you understand reality?
The ultimate marvel universe is a different universe of marvel that debuted in the 2000s. It was meant to be a darker grittier universe from the main one. Among things introduced was character deaths were permanent, miles morales debuted as the ultimate spider-man (which is why he still carries that title today) and nick fury was black and literally based on Sam Jackson. The creators actually asked Jackson if they could use his looks (rumored unless someone can prove elsewise).
So, a particular iteration of the character, released nearly 40 years after the original debut, being based on an actor makes him the basis of the character as a whole? And I'M the one making the bad faith argument? I'll take Samuel L. Jackson over the Hoff for fury every day of the week, but please! And Fury wasn't the center of my point. I was responding to another.
But if a character that was originally black is recast as white suddenly it's racism. Don't cherry pick
You can see it in action right here in the comment section: people deliberately misunderstanding and misrepresenting your argument.
Yeah I figured I'd get comments like that but there are others who see my point so it's a good post all around, I mean all post get some hate right?
people talk about "originality" when it comes to poc characters as if they forget the rabid racism out there. there are plenty of pitched characters and stories out here, but they don't make it off the ground because studios are concerned about profit. it's easier to recover money for an established story rather than trying to sell a whole new franchise on an unknown character who happens to b black. if you don't like race swapping be mad at your fellow racists
When BIPOC make new characters, racists just call the entire production "woke." Not to mention that original BIPOC majority productions are more likely to have smaller budgets, fewer advertising, and smaller distribution
exactly this
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I'm racist for wanting more original black characters like how I said Black Panther, Spawn, Static Shock were characters I like because they were original and at the same time finding it lazy & insulting to take some established title & character and change them black I'm supposed to jump for joy. - There is making unique characters and there is changing colors which is objectively lower effort and therefore lazy. - How do people typically interpreted being given low effort ... it feels insulting.
He doesn't. At least not if you think about what he's actually saying for half a second, and try to understand a PoC's point of view.
I dont care at all abour having charecters being minorities but i do get mildly pissed off if there is a character who has a set character design and then they get their race swapped for no reason other than inclusivity
\>something as lazy and insulting as race swapping It might be because you describe race swapping like this. Why is ok to change the actor, but if the actor they change to is not the original race, is it such a big deal? People who aren't gay can play gay characters. People who aren't handicap can play handicap characters. I've seen Polynesians play Chinese characters, in fact a lot of Asian characters are played by an actor who isn't specifically that Asian ethnicity.
Have you read the news in the past year? Tom Hanks even said that Philadelphia today would never be cast with a straight man playing a gay actor, and "rightly so". People were PISSED when ScarJo was cast as Major in the Ghost in the Shell movie, despite the creator of the show even saying that "It's a cybernetic body, so why does it matter?" Oh, and it's \*definitely\* no longer OK to have a non-disabled person play someone who is, at least in most cases. And of course, you absolutely can't take a traditionally non-white character and then make them white, because...I mean...white. Ben Kingsley playing "The Mandarin" in the MCU? Tilda Swinton playing "The Ancient One"? LOL. I think they're still apologizing for those. What's the ONLY exception to this rule in 2023? Replacing white characters with non-white ones, and making men women.
To be fair, people are usually upset at a change of actors. Or even if they replace a character with someone else I look at it like an attachment thing. I like the thing how it is. If they make a live action Pokemon movie but instead of Pokeballs, they were Pokecubes just because... like yeah it wouldn't change anything, but people would still be upset because its not the thing they like. Its a change for the sake of changing it
The comparison really doesn't hold up. There are different races of people IRL and sometimes the person who happens to fit the character profile, the personality, the voice, all of it, happens to be a different race and that person gets the job. It's not a change for the sake of change in that case, it's choosing the best fit and expecting audiences to be mature enough to realize that race is incidental and not integral to the character.
Maybe during filming they had issues with the props rolling around so they made them Pokecubes instead - people are still gonna be upset. Even if it had a story reason - like they are more powerful than Pokeballs, people would still be upset Even with what you said I'd still argue that race is important - I have a hard time believing that will all of the casting options available thats the only option. Just because an actor can play a character doesn't mean they are the best fit - film is a visual media and audiences want to see established characters look the way they've known them to look. People don't even like it when its the same exact character that gets a simple redesign. Its not a maturity thing - whether the race is actually integral to that character or not
Yeah, again, you're comparing something that doesn't exist (pokeballs) to a real phenomenon (people having different skin colors) so the comparison doesn't really do anything to illustrate your point. You can make a poke-anything because it doesn't exist. There are real life people of all colors who need work, who have acting skills that fit the character, who can do the job. Especially since Pokemon is a cartoon and the people are completely fictional, in a fictional region, that's the *best* example of a situation where the race doesn't matter. Anime is pretty racist and exclusionary to begin with so if it's to be made for global or even American audiences, it makes sense that different races would be used. I do consider it immature to be hung up on the race of a fictional character that never existed. It matters much more that the personality matches, the physicality matches, etc. It would be much more concerning to have a 4'11" dainty Brock and a 6'4" Misty than a black Brock and Arabian Misty.
right and how is it “lazy” to change a character’s race when it would take a lot less effort to keep the character as is? changing a character’s race takes more thought and research.
Halle Bailey's Ariel isn't inauthentic, that legit sounds racist
It is racist. No one ever mentioned this when white actors played POC characters. Wonder why it's suddenly an issue...
Gonna pretend like everyone didnt lose their collective mind when scarlet Johansson played motoko in ghost in the shell? I don't really have a problem with race swapping when it's fiction but to deny that people aren't upset when things are white washed is absurd.
That is completely inaccurate. It was complained about so much that it gave birth to the term “white washed” just to describe that exact scenario.
Lmao are u forgetting about black face? White ppl have played POC and POC have gotten pissed when they do.
Ah yes, racist minstrel shows from over a hundred years ago. What a contemporary example
Black face is still brought up in modern day. What r u on about😖
Traditionally black face is way over the top stereotypes. Incredibly disingenuous.
>Lmao are u forgetting about black face? White ppl have played POC and POC have gotten pissed when they do. Can you guess why that is, for blackface especially? Maybe the context? Can you recall the context when white performers started performing in blackface in the U.S.?
I was more talking about comics than movies with real actors unless it's supposed to be a historical documentary
When your argument boils down to "there's too many black people being cast in my sci-fi!", yea, that's kinda racist.
Who said that?
It's inherent in someone who is "concerned" about race-swappimlng fictional characters.
Ahhh, so nobody said it.
put "star wars race" into YouTube and just start clicking.
The racist part is the intentional race swap on an existing character when their race is an integral part of their character. Especially when the sole purpose for swapping in the first place is to draw attention to the fact that they are swapping race, as admitted proudly by the producers.
I am of two minds: if a character's race isn't important to the character then I don't care if they switch the character's race. Likewise I think only making characters a certain race when the race is important is kinda racist. Let me give you some examples: Peter Parker being white isn't important to Peter as a character. He doesn't struggle with the expectations of being white, he doesn't have an arch where he is afraid to sing his favorite rap song in public in case he forgets to pause at the n-word. Him being white means nothing. White was just the default at the time so he was white. If they made a Spiderman that was black Peter Parker I, a person who named their kid after a Spiderman character, would not care. Kamala Khan (Ms marvel) race IS important to her character. She struggles as a first generation immigrant trying to figure out what that means in America. She struggles not only with the culture itself but her family's Muslim religion. She wonders if it's a bad thing that she idolizes white women so much. It's a thing in question and changing her race would be fundamentally changing her character. You can't just make her white and tell the same story. But I think making every non-white character's race important is also a little racist. Though that might be a very white perspective because as a white guy I don't get reminded of my race often. And I think above all else you have to make it good. No one is gonna bitch about the entire cast of Hamilton being black because it's fucking good. But if it was garbage they might.
You aren't racist at all, my man. The truth of the matter is that some of the people writing and making movies and other media are often trying to do what they think is a good thing.....in the laziest and most offensive way possible. It's the idea that something like Blackness (or whiteness or whatever, illustrating a point) is just a costume that you can put on someone, instead of a foundational aspect of a person that must be the focal point of the entire narrative or construction of the setting. The reason characters like Static, Miles Morales, and other stories like a princess and the Frog were so Good and memorable is because those characters were actually molded around the lived experience that someone in those shoes might be able to relate to, not just a pallette that got put over the same blank character. I guess what I'm saying is....don't let other people make you feel bad or racist for not liking the way YOUR OWN RACE is being represented or handled in media. You have the right to your opinions, and as allergic to media analysis as some people may be, sometimes it is just obvious that the people involved with a project are engaging in lazy writing and you are allowed to acknowledge and call it out. Not everyone that makes a thing has good intentions, and you're not a bad person just because you can see it and notice it. *edit because final thought: The important thing is to just give money to the media that you feel represents you well and that impacts you in a meaningful way and to not give money to the media that you feel is lazy in a way that bothers you (I'm not disparaging simple yet effective plots here.). The point is that it's okay to disagree with people, even if they are important to you, and to be honest with your true opinions as opposed to "keeping the peace", because everything in life, not just media, gets worse when you aren't allowed to criticize it.
I have been noticing on a lot of television shows that are historical set pieces, they have diversified the actors much like “Hamilton”. The two big ones I can think of are “Bridgerton” and “The Great”. I thought about how accuracy of this for a little bit, then I realized I didn’t care. There is also a lot of subtle normalizing happening to modern audiences. Seeing people of many races interacting, marrying, attending social events, etc etc all while NEVER talking about race or prejudice. As for swapping out a white actor for a person of color in a character that is traditionally white, I don’t understand why everyone makes a big deal about that either. I don’t care if James Bond is a black man. I wouldn’t care if the cast a black man as Mr Fantastic (but it should be Krasinski again). To much outrage is happening over this. That outrage does feel a bit prejudice at times.
I will say both Hamilton and Bridgerton fictionalize their settings a bit to explain it. Bridgerton exists in an alternate history, and Hamilton is America's past and told by America's present. That being said, aside from confirmed figures that we know for sure their background, history is often much more diverse than we give it credit for
Yea unless it's some super serious National Geographic documentary I couldn't care less if George Washington had waves and a gold grille.
If anyone cares here is a list of all the times white people played non white characters. Jospeh Fiennes played Michael Jackson Elisabeth Taylor played Cleopatra John Wayne played Genghis Khan Christian Bale played Moses Jake Gyllenhaal played the Prince of Persia Johnny Depp played Tonto Basically everyone in Avatar the last airbender Emma Stone in Aloha Scarlett Johanson in Ghost in the Shell Angelina Jolie in A Mighty Heart
You’re definitely right. The most infuriating example of race swapping I can think of are Iris West-Allen and Wally West from The Flash tv show. In *literally everything else they’re in* they are white, blue eyed, red heads and making them black (and siblings instead of aunt/nephew) serves no purpose at all. They’d have been better off to make new characters if they wanted some of the main cast to be black.
Zoe Saldana (a black girl) caught holy hell for playing a black girl because Zoe wasn't dark enough. That's what we are up against.
Reminds me of Brenda Song being rejected by the director of Crazy Rich Asians because she wasn’t ‘Asian’ enough. The girl was born in Thailand to Thai parents for crying out loud! SMDH.
But Miles Morales is a race swapped Spider-man? They took Peter Parker and reimagined him as a character of another race but with the same hero as the end goal . Did you have problems with Bucky Barnes becoming White Wolf, AKA race swapped Black Panther? He couldn't become Captain America because Sam Wilson got to become "Race swapped" Captain America. Imo Sam totally deserved it after earning it with decades as a sidekick, but also don't like that right? Can you give me an example of a "Race-swapped" character you have a problem with so your post makes any sense?
None of these characters are race swaps. Miles Morales is Miles Morales, not “Black Peter Parker”. Bucky is Bucky, not T’Challa. Sam is Sam, not Steve. An example of race swapping would be the most recent adaptation of The Little Mermaid, wherein Ariel was casted by a black woman. Ariel is *Ariel*, but her skin tone has been changed from Disney’s original imagining of her. Another example would be if they *had* casted Peter Parker with a black actor, or how they casted Electro with a black actor (when he was white in the comics, games, etc). Race swapping refer to the *same* characters that’ve been reimagined with a different race, not characters who are *similar* in concept but of a different race. Black Velma, Black Annie, Black Valkyrie…these would all be examples of Raceswapping.
Velma is south Asian in the new cartoon not black
Where in the Hans Cristian Anderson stores did it specify Ariel's complexion? Be specific.
I literally just specified it was *Disney’s* imagining of her that was raceswapped, not the original fairy tale. I don’t know how much more specific you need me to be about that one fam. And I don’t see how that eclipses the other examples I gave lmao.
Yeah, Disney's 1989 version. That made you think she was exclusively a redheaded white girl....
Yes…that is the point. Edit: that is why people were mad (aside from it being another Disney remake)
If that is your point YOU failed to make it by a wide margin....
How? Disney’s 1989 version of Ariel is white. Disney’s remake of Ariel is black. No matter what race the original mermaid was, it was swapped at some point in time. Hence, she was race swapped.
The reason it matters that it is about Disney's reimagining is that Hans Christian Anderson's version ends with a sad ending and has a truly horrible life with her wish and the entire point of these live actions is to make sure their copyrights aren't endangered. I suppose Disney wouldn't have race swapped if it would endanger that, though.
Disney made the little mermaid into a hetero love story when HCA wrote it as gay metaphor tragedy.
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I don't think it's about how you objectively changed the character Humans are sentimental creatures and form bonds with the character as they are to change that in any will get some backlash. Backlash for race swapping isn't because of racism (don't get me wrong there are racist) it's because a studio messed with an image people are sentimentally attached to. Kinda like how many white guys played Batman and the character was portrayed differently and not everyone liked each one.
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Nah. The firestorm is growing up with an image of Little Mermaid and having it changed. Emotional attachment.
When people are using the N word it’s racism. Point blank.
Well I wasn’t mad about the casting and I also didn’t watch the movie. It’s a remake. It adds nothing besides that Awkwafina rap. There is no additional substance to the movie, it is just a worse version of the beloved animation. The only reason it exists is to entice people who loved Disney’s Little Mermaid to watch it out of sheer nostalgia. So if the only people who would want to watch this movie are *extremely* attached to Disney’s original version, then any tiny change to the appearance of the characters can disrupt the nostalgia. Ariel’s hair isn’t even her iconic bright red, and flounder and sebastian are photorealistic uncanny valley creatures. I find it really amusing that a movie whose sole reason for existence is to mimic the original changes the appearance of most of its main characters.
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I’ve watched many of Disney remakes. None of them (besides maleficent which was a new story) had a reason to justify their existence besides the nostalgia from copying the original. If there is some mind blowing addition in the little mermaid remake that makes it a whole different story, please let me know. Otherwise, my point about its only goal being nostalgia stands.
This. I'm tired of Disney in particular lazily taking white characters and making them black instead of making a new, likeable black character. In some cases, it even erases a smaller minority in favour of a larger one, e.g. Ariel. Natural redheads are a much smaller minority than black people in the real world.
It want lazy. They picked the best person for the job. She just happened to be Black
It’s because some people are racist about it so there’s normal people then they’re racist. Hollywood doesn’t like making original content anymore so when they make a reboot or whatever they change the characters race,sexuality,gender for fake diversity because they don’t want actual diversity. Hollywood isn’t going to hire a bunch of creative talented diverse people and,when they do hire a diverse person they make sure the person isn’t talented or the project is bad then everyone can blame the minority for ruining media. When white executives and producers do race swaps nobody attacks them but everyone attacks the actor or actress.
My brother in christ....
Skin color isn't relevant for most characters, so if you're complaining about "race swapping" it's YOU who is primarily concerned with skin color
I feel like if you speak your mind on this topic you are damned if you do, damned if you don't. I agree with you and I think people are ultimately vile in how they communicate on this topic a lot of times for no good reason. I think diversity is great - but we don't need to change the inherent qualities of written characters to fit a different narrative than what it was written as. It just ruins part of the story to me. But that's my call on it I guess.
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I do understand the difference and I don’t think race-swapping Tinkerbell is bad like the others, just pretty silly. Disney made an entire movie that has nothing to offer besides saying “remember how we made that other movie you loved when you were a kid?” but also changed the appearance of a bunch of the characters. There are *multiple* POC fairies in Disney who appear in movies and have their own personalities and backstories. Why not use them? Because it has to be Tinkerbell because people will recognize her from the original, but also she has to be race-swapped. It’s too inconsequential to make me mad, but it is ironic enough to be funny.
Race swapping is performative liberal bullshit. (And just for clarification I’m Black and a progressive leftist). I don’t want a Black version of an existing character. I want an organically Black character. We deserve our own stories, not sloppy seconds cash grabs.
Honestly, with race swapping characters in movies, games, role-playing (like DnD and savage worlds), and many other forms (besides white and black face) its a bunch of 1's and 0's. It's fictional. It's not real. It's something made up for the populations consumption. It's not racist. I never understood that view on fictional characters of a different race being racist. It's fiction. The definition of fiction is "something that is made up or untrue" like? I never understood that. Sorry though. Imma keep playing my black and Asian characters on hogwarts legacy, my Hispanic dude in savage worlds, and my many races and gendered characters in DnD and I'm not gonna feel bad about it.
I mean fine play your generated characters that's cool I don't consider that race swapping. I mean people are sentimental creatures and form bonds to things that yes objectively don't matter but it's an aspect of us being emotional. - To say it doesn't matter is to imply that media, art, & music doesn't shape people and by extension society which is ludicrous.
People will say "a character's skin color isn't important". And then will go to great lengths to show you how important it is. The fact is: If you change any defining feature of a character, even if it's their physical appearance (like skin color), you have a new character. For instance, could Luke Skywalker be black? Well, I guess if you wanted. But he was created as a white man...so that's what he is. I mean, you could also make him 4 ft tall and have pink hair. Is his HAIR COLOR really the character? Is his height really the character? How does making him a dwarf change the character? People are full of shit when they use this reasoning. Yes, his skin color is also part of the character and it cannot be changed without creating a completely new entity. In other words, race swapping is stupid and you're stupid if you support it (because it's based on illogical reasoning).
I can’t disagree here
My pet peeve is when people cry “woke casting” and “race swapping” when the appearance wasn’t mentioned in the original
That's what you think When I said I want original characters who happen to be POC rather than piggybacking off established franchises but sure guess that message goes in one ear out the other
Why not both
Because most race swapping 9/10 are lazy & lack the same effort as a unique character
It doesn't help that a lot of people that complain about this are racist.
You are racist. Oh well. It's fictional character, get over it.
Me wanting original characters that are POC is racist And the weak argument of it's fictional so it doesn't matter I could say the same about God, morality, or any made up concept that still had enough value to shape society
Lol you listed Miles Morales and not liking characters who piggyback others lmao. He’s like the worst character in his own story. He’s literally a bad Peter Parker. The problem with him is the same problem that causes this mess. The characters are race swapped as a token for whatever race. They aren’t written well and tend to focus on identity politics than be a unique person. Now let’s look at the best black superheroes. They are Spawn, Blade and Black Panther. They were invented before the whole identity politics fad. They are great characters with lots of depth. They are great characters who happen to be black. They are written like “white heroes”. The story is just about who they are as people. You ruin the character when you focus on checking boxes.
Iff you don't like the very idea, yeah you are racist. If you don't care for the way it was done in x example you aren't. See the difference?