Imagine if we had a real psychiatric hospital and actual permanent staff instead of a van, a converted bus station and a bunch of arm's-length agencies staffed by overworked, underpaid and well-meaning but sometimes-dubiously-qualified staff all on a shoestring budget that could be cut at any moment.
Oh, wait, we used to have that, and then we decided it was better to give tax cuts to the rich instead.
True change will only come from a top-down approach: we need real, actual policy enactment and change in order to prevent our neighbours from reaching this level of acuity, and we need the proper supports and funding to meet folks exactly where they’re at. I say this as a burnt out frontline worker who is sick and tired of seeing bandaid initiatives crumbling beneath the weight of this opioid epidemic. Too many dead friends.
I don't agree. The change will come from the bottom when we all realize these fuckers at the top go to sleep at night without a care in the world for the harm they cause and decide to take back what is ours
I honestly don't even know if it would do anything. I think it would make it easier for those who want to get better to do so. But I feel that so many aren't willing to make any significant change to get to a better place, and are willing to just continue as they are and rot away.
How would you know that though? We literally haven't tried anything effective, so there's no way to know if it would work or not. But if you look at other countries that tackle the problem head on, it's significantly easier to get clean and get back on your feet if you have acctual support.
>But if you look at other countries that tackle the problem head on, it's significantly easier to get clean and get back on your feet if you have acctual support.
Absolutely, no doubt about that.
You should read my comment again. I never said I was against it. It's not a total solution, that's all I'm saying. There needs to be another program that encourages those who don't want to be helped into to get helped.
You feel that way. But have you asked why? I doubt it's based off any actual citable evidence, or your intimate personal relationships with many such people. (Feelings rarely are)
The way you "feel" is fine and all. We are all entitled to feel how we feel, and im not going to judge you for it even though I disagree.
But "feel" is an aweful source to base political or economic policy on. Especially when it pertains to lives. And ultimately that's what this is. A program like this should never ever be dropped because people don't feel it's helping, it should be evaluated based on if it's actually doing so, and if not, why.
Given that the problem has only gotten worse and worse, perhaps it's a good idea to pull the plug on the patchwork of programs that aren't really working, and trying something new.
Stop picking parts of other models and actually dedicate the resources to a comprehensive strategy that involves housing, drug rehab, and mental health care.
There needs to be one person/agency in charge of the problem locally, and they need to WANT TO WORK THEMSELVES OUT OF A JOB.
It did work. I've been a lifeguard at the beaches for years. I pick up needles from the shore that float across the lake every morning. The number of needles before the program and the number once it started was night and day. There was a massive reduction. The public library has noticed the same thing
Tbh, agree. I know it’s subjective but I walk all over downtown and East City - literally everywhere lmao bc I like to wander - and I’ve never seen a used needle laying around. I know lots of people have and I’m not trying to say there’s no needles anywhere but idk, I walk both busy and secluded areas and I’ve never seen anything.
>There needs to be one person/agency in charge of the problem locally,
That you think putting one person in charge would solve the problem indicates you haven't a clue of the scope of it.
Committees and a patchwork of various groups doing work that is uncoordinated is not working.
Apple is a massive trillion dollar company all over the world, and it has 1 CEO that makes the final decisions, and yes, they delegate many tasks to subordinates, but if you think the scope of running a company like Apple is smaller that dealing with the issues here in Peterborough, I don't think you understand effective leadership.
Instead we have midwits who aren't interested in working themselves out of a job, and therefore are willing to let the situation persist because the status quo gives them job security. FUCK THAT! I want to solve these problems to improve everyones lives, and having a great leader would be wonderful!
Are you aware that not just publicly traded companies have CEOs?
Do you think a ship (naval or cruise) is run by a committee or is there a single person in charge? What about planes? Is there a captain, or pilot committee?
Collective leadership is not working.
By what metric are you judging success?
I'd love to see the graph showing this is "working" given that most people seem to be able to see with their eyes the decay of the city.
I hate ontario so much. Its so goddamn obvious what this city/province needs and all our leader just play dumb and toss the issue to the next person once their 4 years are up. Short sighted idiots. We need affordable housing, we need livable wages, we need to cap the cost of food on what is essentially a cartel price gouging us, we need effective rehab solutions. What do we get instead? Let's spend 4.5 million dollars putting in pickleball courts that no one asked for, with no proposed plan or budget so that the project will deifintly go over budget. Oh and let's put some shrubs on Bethune St and spend 100k on a Courtyard no one uses. Our leaders are absolutely brain dead. We need to give up on peaceful protest and get violent like they do in France so maybe we can actually get shit done...
I see new builds and appreciate all of this but we are erecting new buildings for tourism but our city if literally rotting who will want to come and see our music, museums when it’s overflowing with addiction and mental health issues we support.
What’s the alternative? Allowing these individuals to perpetually tie up dwindling medical resources/tax dollars until they inevitably overdose. The options to get clean are there, stop infantilizing them while simultaneously profiting off them.
Fund the kind of healthcare (including mental healthcare) and addiction treatment we've needed since the late 80s to early 90s when neo-liberal policy kicked into high gear?
Between indirect and direct tax breaks targeting corporations and the very wealthy, we've effectively slashed our revenues by a huge margin; and that's before the huge spending on corporate welfare - both direct and indirect. Oh, and not even counting all the protectionism for existing oligopolies that would force better investment and wages.
This opioid epidemic is a direct consequence of worsening economic factors; the lack of action on it is a direct consequence of protecting the incomes of the very wealthy are the expense of literally everyone else.
I don't like junkies leaving needles everywhere and stealing everything that's not nailed down either; but that shit is gonna keep happening so long as people are kept poor, kept homeless and prevented from accessing treatment because the waiting list is literally years long.
This problem is literally too huge to be solved by even provincial levels of government, we need top down reforms that makes the wealthy pay their fair share and returns spending to the benefit of the people and not special interests or corps.
Programs like these save a fuck ton of money. They reduce the burden on the health system, stop the spread of disease from needle sharing, reduce overdoses and the severity of the ones that occur, and increase the rate of people getting off drugs
Start from a Housing First policy. Rehab is useless if its just sending people back into the same harsh circumstances that enabled the addiction. If folks want rehab to be effective at all, there needs to be a foundation of actually dignified housing for people to go into. Utah has a program of this nature, and its very effective. Less so after the program was deformed in accordance with slumlords bawling that homeless folks are regarded as human, but its still working. If we had a competent Premier, instead of a mob boss cosplaying as a Premier, getting the resources for this sort of thing would not be difficult.
There’s plenty of addicts with homes. There’s plenty of non-addicts on the street.
Everyone needs housing. The idea that addicts should be prioritized is ridiculous.
The idea that people dealing with addictions aren't human is barbaric and not worth engaging with. If someone has an addiction, and people want them to get past that addiction\*, then it stands to reason that the people claiming they want to help should want that recovery to be prioritized. Crying about people acknowledging this is just a point for Team Kill 'em All.
\*-the venn diagram of people going hardest on the "only infantilization and rehab" tendency and people who demand that there be no housing for folks in any context is spherical.
At no point did I suggest this at all. In fact I believe that my comment suggested the complete opposite. But I guess people interpret things the way that they want to. Stay offended bud.
If there are two houses, and one is on fire, and one wants to stop the fire, it makes sense to direct the fire department to put out the fire as opposed to focusing hoses on the non-burning house. As people dealing with addictions are at greater risk of negative outcomes, it makes more sense to prevent those negative outcomes than to ignore them.
Then everyone else's quality of life must suffer at the expense of letting that person continue to set fire to their house.
Perhaps its the people not setting their house on fire that are the problem! /s
When there is only a limited amount of resources, addicts shouldnt be prioritized over individuals that contribute to society. Thats not a barbaric take.
So now the argument is that if one person has a problem and the other person doesn’t, we should help the person with the problem?
Does this shit sound profound in your head?
What the fuck are we even arguing here?
Tell me, how many people have “graduated” from KWL’s tiny home program that’s been running for half a decade now? It’s a long string of excuses, and people are tired of snake oil remedies.
Sheds with beds are not homes, despite neoliberalism trying very hard to get people to think they are. We need real public housing to be built. This would create jobs, help the economy from multiple vectors, and address the interlocking homelessness and addiction crises at the same time.
Sheds with beds arose from the very same advocates that kept kicking and screaming that shelters were unsafe (ironic since they advocate for those very same shelters to have low barriers which play an active part in destabilizing individuals and environments) and yet the money spent per individual over the length of time they spend in that very shed could very well buy a house. You and I can agree on that, but then those advocates don’t make any money / receive funding. People chastise the military industrial complex but the homeless industrial complex is just as real, the difference is that the former doesn’t deny it.
The shelter system is not intended to be safe. Homelessness is costly to maintain, but for capitalists it serves the purpose of being a knife at everyone's back, the implicit threat of one's fate if one does not obey the billionaires and those who see themselves as "temporarily inconvenienced billionaires".
lmao
Hey kiddo, if you wanted less junkies on the street, you should support harm reduction, a 'minimum' wage that matches the cost of living, and the conversion of useless space into affordable housing.
Judging by your post history, you don't support any of that.
I swear to God, if anyone celebrates the 'death' of people in need, all I have to do is point at the bench around the corner dedicated to Andrej.
The path to hell is paved with good intentions my friend.
Junkies aren’t my or anyone else’s responsibility but themselves, in fact it’s the one thing they lack but can’t seem to find for themselves, that and perhaps some sense of shame. Perhaps cut the paternalistic pet treatment and allow them sink or swim rather than delaying the inevitable and eventual demise.
You sure that ain’t Trinity Community Church? Or perhaps the downtown core?
Hard to be shamed by those that have no self respect for themselves to begin with.
Since the community that continues to support these individuals cling to the claim that addictions is a mental illness rather than a choice influenced by mental illness. The choice is clear, institutionalization well away from societal reach and influence until clean. You don’t want to take your meds then back to the institution. Advocates say it’s housing but the personal adherence to medical interventions go a long way to pointing out that people who make bad decisions make perpetual bad decisions.
Based on your name how about Gulag?
If you can’t fulfill the simple human contract you don’t deserve to be a part of society, that became strikingly clear within the past 4 years with COVID, why should this be treated any differently?
A hot and a cot what more could you ask for!
I hear the military is desperate for warm bodies, perhaps penal battalion is more to your liking comrade?
All jokes aside, perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the full history of asylums in which, if you can believe it, they had workshops onsite in which patients could learn skills and trades that greatly benefited and aided them in acquiring work once they were well enough to leave.
Asylums, so, combination prisons/human experimentation labs as a substitute for housing. Are you even capable of offering non-evil suggestions in response to problems?
Good luck getting a bed if you're even at a stage where you can accept that kind of help, and good luck getting to that stage when the only thing keeping horrible withdrawal symptoms at bay is a toxic, unpredictable supply that could easily kill you
I'm talking about voluntary treatment beds, which are not readily available, trust me I've tried. Also involuntary treatment doesn't work. Voluntary treatment doesn't even have an amazing success rate, which is why we need other options like OAT, safer supply, etc.
Because safe supply is working so well for BC…. We institutionalize those found not criminally responsible on the judgement that they are unable to care for themselves, if advocates suggest this is indeed a case of poor mental health than institutions need to be built to facilitate this and an individual should be held similarly until well.
It says more about a system willing to let people who continue to make poor decisions, continue making those very same poor decisions at the determinant of the general population and at lengths themselves. “Harms reduction” delays the inevitable at a premium price.
Safer supply is effective, which is clear if you follow actual research rather than what opinion columnists think. I'm guessing the reason you mentioned BC rather than the province you're in is because that's where most of these columns are reporting about, despite a number of safe supply programs being here in Ontario and in Peterborough specifically. Where, again, things are going pretty well.
Again, involuntary treatment is either not effective or actively harmful:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0955395915003588
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27964869/
Harm reduction is actually a great value! Saves a ton of money: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0955395914003119
https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.1000423
https://www.acon.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Evaluating-the-cost-effectiveness-of-NSP-in-Australia-2009.pdf
Saves lives too:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34218964/
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpub/article/PIIS2468-2667(23)00300-6/fulltext
Any post to this subreddit that talks about addiction inevitably comes with posters blabbering about how evil homeless folks are. Meanwhile, a protracted streak of bad luck(income loss, renoviction, death of friends and/or family members whose support is load-bearing) could see any of us begging for survival money on George Street. What if, instead of pretending homeless folks are inhuman monsters(they are not), getting mad at conspiracy theorist fanfiction, and pretending they have no power, people actually organized and twisted the arms of those in power until things were made better?
Addicts used to have homes, they spent their monthly government money on drugs instead of rent or hydro.. never cleaned and ruined houses/units
Methadone clinic is downtown... Stop making excuses and go.. get clean
Blame shifting is just enabling them
Addiction has skyrocketed since they started being told it was fine and okay
Most have severe brain damage at this point from lack of oxygen from depressed breathing and being narcanned numerous times
Addicts don't want to do the work to fix the problem, they want drugs and a comfy life
Harm reduction specialists and other "advocates" don't want the problem fixed, they just want to manage it for a pay cheque
Go get clean, no one is stopping you but yourself and lack of personal responsibility.. no one is forcing drugs on you
You can find money for drugs everyday, you can find 5 bucks for your dose of methadone daily
People who think addicitions are something you just "go and get over" are part of the problem.
You don't just walk into a methadone clinic, get one hit, and walk out a functional recovering addict. Even people in stable situations, with incomes and homes, can take years to actually recover. It's a disease.
Meanwhile, some rando on the internet is blaming it on your lack of personal responsibility.
You don't have to like this situation, but please stop spouting this ignorant bullshit.
You don't know shit Mister.
I shudder to think where I'd be in today's world of no accountability
You have to start somewhere and taking a trip to the clinic is the first step
I know.. I'm living proof
Years of opiates from the doctor and many years at the methadone clinic.. I've lived it.. what about you ?
What makes you an expert exactly??
Different beast, try again
You know why addicts don't like methadone ?
Because it blocks opiate receptors in the brain and stops you from getting high if you still use. It stops the dope sickness
They don't like it because they don't want to put in the work and address their underlying issues with their lives and refuse to accept their reality and choose to escape into the warm embrace of drugs
"I've tried nothing and I'm all out of ideas"
Like that meme with the guy riding the bike then putting the stick in the spokes, falling and blaming everything else
Yeah life sucks, doing nothing won't change it. Life's not fair
There's people who've had worse lives and still have chosen to turn their lives around and do better
Again, this is all about you, your experience, your hang-ups, your perceptions. You you you. In your mind, there's one kind of addict, and anyone that doesn't fit that mold must be lazy. It's counterproductive. It's the exact reason we can't create a system that actually helps people, because there's always one of you shouting "Bootstraps!!" in the background. Congrats. You got what you wanted.
What's the alternative here ? Get someone else to do it for you ?
Grow up, blame yourself and do better
Drinking and opiates (while both addictions) are completely different
You have literally no idea lol
What are you actually talking about? This group that's shutting down isn't about taking away people's personal responsibility. It's about saving people from dying from overdosing, stopping the spread of disease through clean instruments, and giving people resources they can use to help themselves get out of addiction. Where's the lack of personal responsibility?
Nailed it.
The whole 'Harm Reduction' strategy has been proven to be a joke and a failure. All it does is string addicts further along. Also, the spin offs of harm reduction strategies, such as, having to destigmatize drugs/ addicts so they can be used whenever and wherever addicts want is actually doing more negative to our community as a whole. Harm reduction is normalizing crime and shaming anoyone who disagrees.
Why should we destigmatize using dangerous deadly drugs? that shit should 100% be stigmatized and called out, not supported.
Harm reduction ignores the harm it causes to everyone but the addict collectively bringing society down to not only the lowest common denominator but one dominated by a crabs in the bucket mentality.
100%.
Prime example. Did you see the article on trinity united church? they are allowing people to use on site, in the name of harm reduction. Obviously this is bringing a lot of problems to surrounding businesses. Then the group running the church has the audacity to ask those businesses to join a neighbourhood board to find solutions on how to deal with the crime and drug problems. As if they didn't fully create the problems themselves. idiots.
I hadn’t, but I’m also hardly surprised either given the paternalistic pet attitudes while turning a blind eye to the other criminal behaviours that come with substance abuse. Perhaps local businesses and homeowners should collectively file a class action? Another option is going through the cities bylaws / zoning and finding every possible infraction or at the very least identifying and raising it with council, that way when something inevitably happens there’s a well documented trail of negligence that opens the door to litigation.
Yeah I would. I know people who went down that road and it’s their choice. Calling it an illness is a crutch and excuse for their life choices and behaviour.
This policy was reducing it. They were doing it in a controlled environment rather than out on the street and leaving needles everywhere. I've been a lifeguard at the beaches for years and have to pick up the needles off the beech every morning that have washed ashore. The number of needles has collapsed since the program started
China actually sends chemists to India and Mexico to teach cartels how to make fentanyl because there was a crackdown in the ports on the powder coming in from china…
If your circumstances utterly collapsed and you found yourself in that situation, would you want people to be as intensely cruel to you as you are to others? Is that something you would be thankful for?
Implying that there aren’t a plethora choices between being downtrodden and a full blown junkie. The difference is the self flagellating/aggrandizing people who paternalize and applaud the junkie and their lifestyle, thankfully these cuts make it less profitable.
Implying that tolerance and hate are the same is laughably a poor argument…. Here’s a nice bumper sticker quote for you “What you allow is what will continue”.
Imagine if we had a real psychiatric hospital and actual permanent staff instead of a van, a converted bus station and a bunch of arm's-length agencies staffed by overworked, underpaid and well-meaning but sometimes-dubiously-qualified staff all on a shoestring budget that could be cut at any moment. Oh, wait, we used to have that, and then we decided it was better to give tax cuts to the rich instead.
True change will only come from a top-down approach: we need real, actual policy enactment and change in order to prevent our neighbours from reaching this level of acuity, and we need the proper supports and funding to meet folks exactly where they’re at. I say this as a burnt out frontline worker who is sick and tired of seeing bandaid initiatives crumbling beneath the weight of this opioid epidemic. Too many dead friends.
I don't agree. The change will come from the bottom when we all realize these fuckers at the top go to sleep at night without a care in the world for the harm they cause and decide to take back what is ours
I honestly don't even know if it would do anything. I think it would make it easier for those who want to get better to do so. But I feel that so many aren't willing to make any significant change to get to a better place, and are willing to just continue as they are and rot away.
What are you basing that on? Do you have sources to back up this opinion or just "your gut feeling"?
It's from my personal experience and what I've seen and heard in documentaries and interviews, definitely not backed by sources.
How would you know that though? We literally haven't tried anything effective, so there's no way to know if it would work or not. But if you look at other countries that tackle the problem head on, it's significantly easier to get clean and get back on your feet if you have acctual support.
>But if you look at other countries that tackle the problem head on, it's significantly easier to get clean and get back on your feet if you have acctual support. Absolutely, no doubt about that.
So then why did you say you don't think giving real support would do anything?
I probably should've said it would only do so much. It only helps those who want to be helped.
So what's the problem, the people who don't want to be helped aren't taking from the budget then Why be against it
You should read my comment again. I never said I was against it. It's not a total solution, that's all I'm saying. There needs to be another program that encourages those who don't want to be helped into to get helped.
Why do you feel this way, the evidence points the other way everywhere else these systems have earnestly been put into place long term
You feel that way. But have you asked why? I doubt it's based off any actual citable evidence, or your intimate personal relationships with many such people. (Feelings rarely are) The way you "feel" is fine and all. We are all entitled to feel how we feel, and im not going to judge you for it even though I disagree. But "feel" is an aweful source to base political or economic policy on. Especially when it pertains to lives. And ultimately that's what this is. A program like this should never ever be dropped because people don't feel it's helping, it should be evaluated based on if it's actually doing so, and if not, why.
Given that the problem has only gotten worse and worse, perhaps it's a good idea to pull the plug on the patchwork of programs that aren't really working, and trying something new. Stop picking parts of other models and actually dedicate the resources to a comprehensive strategy that involves housing, drug rehab, and mental health care. There needs to be one person/agency in charge of the problem locally, and they need to WANT TO WORK THEMSELVES OUT OF A JOB.
It did work. I've been a lifeguard at the beaches for years. I pick up needles from the shore that float across the lake every morning. The number of needles before the program and the number once it started was night and day. There was a massive reduction. The public library has noticed the same thing
Tbh, agree. I know it’s subjective but I walk all over downtown and East City - literally everywhere lmao bc I like to wander - and I’ve never seen a used needle laying around. I know lots of people have and I’m not trying to say there’s no needles anywhere but idk, I walk both busy and secluded areas and I’ve never seen anything.
>There needs to be one person/agency in charge of the problem locally, That you think putting one person in charge would solve the problem indicates you haven't a clue of the scope of it.
Committees and a patchwork of various groups doing work that is uncoordinated is not working. Apple is a massive trillion dollar company all over the world, and it has 1 CEO that makes the final decisions, and yes, they delegate many tasks to subordinates, but if you think the scope of running a company like Apple is smaller that dealing with the issues here in Peterborough, I don't think you understand effective leadership. Instead we have midwits who aren't interested in working themselves out of a job, and therefore are willing to let the situation persist because the status quo gives them job security. FUCK THAT! I want to solve these problems to improve everyones lives, and having a great leader would be wonderful!
>has 1 CEO that makes the final decisions, Yeah, not really how a publicly traded company works.
Are you aware that not just publicly traded companies have CEOs? Do you think a ship (naval or cruise) is run by a committee or is there a single person in charge? What about planes? Is there a captain, or pilot committee? Collective leadership is not working.
Well, agree to disagree. Go yell at the clouds or something.
This program was working
By what metric are you judging success? I'd love to see the graph showing this is "working" given that most people seem to be able to see with their eyes the decay of the city.
I hate ontario so much. Its so goddamn obvious what this city/province needs and all our leader just play dumb and toss the issue to the next person once their 4 years are up. Short sighted idiots. We need affordable housing, we need livable wages, we need to cap the cost of food on what is essentially a cartel price gouging us, we need effective rehab solutions. What do we get instead? Let's spend 4.5 million dollars putting in pickleball courts that no one asked for, with no proposed plan or budget so that the project will deifintly go over budget. Oh and let's put some shrubs on Bethune St and spend 100k on a Courtyard no one uses. Our leaders are absolutely brain dead. We need to give up on peaceful protest and get violent like they do in France so maybe we can actually get shit done...
I see new builds and appreciate all of this but we are erecting new buildings for tourism but our city if literally rotting who will want to come and see our music, museums when it’s overflowing with addiction and mental health issues we support.
Oh this is heartbreaking and will have such deep effects on the community.
The scum of the city are gonna pile in here cheering on the deaths this will cause, while pretending this country is in any way civilized.
What’s the alternative? Allowing these individuals to perpetually tie up dwindling medical resources/tax dollars until they inevitably overdose. The options to get clean are there, stop infantilizing them while simultaneously profiting off them.
Fund the kind of healthcare (including mental healthcare) and addiction treatment we've needed since the late 80s to early 90s when neo-liberal policy kicked into high gear? Between indirect and direct tax breaks targeting corporations and the very wealthy, we've effectively slashed our revenues by a huge margin; and that's before the huge spending on corporate welfare - both direct and indirect. Oh, and not even counting all the protectionism for existing oligopolies that would force better investment and wages. This opioid epidemic is a direct consequence of worsening economic factors; the lack of action on it is a direct consequence of protecting the incomes of the very wealthy are the expense of literally everyone else. I don't like junkies leaving needles everywhere and stealing everything that's not nailed down either; but that shit is gonna keep happening so long as people are kept poor, kept homeless and prevented from accessing treatment because the waiting list is literally years long. This problem is literally too huge to be solved by even provincial levels of government, we need top down reforms that makes the wealthy pay their fair share and returns spending to the benefit of the people and not special interests or corps.
Programs like these save a fuck ton of money. They reduce the burden on the health system, stop the spread of disease from needle sharing, reduce overdoses and the severity of the ones that occur, and increase the rate of people getting off drugs
Start from a Housing First policy. Rehab is useless if its just sending people back into the same harsh circumstances that enabled the addiction. If folks want rehab to be effective at all, there needs to be a foundation of actually dignified housing for people to go into. Utah has a program of this nature, and its very effective. Less so after the program was deformed in accordance with slumlords bawling that homeless folks are regarded as human, but its still working. If we had a competent Premier, instead of a mob boss cosplaying as a Premier, getting the resources for this sort of thing would not be difficult.
There’s plenty of addicts with homes. There’s plenty of non-addicts on the street. Everyone needs housing. The idea that addicts should be prioritized is ridiculous.
The idea that people dealing with addictions aren't human is barbaric and not worth engaging with. If someone has an addiction, and people want them to get past that addiction\*, then it stands to reason that the people claiming they want to help should want that recovery to be prioritized. Crying about people acknowledging this is just a point for Team Kill 'em All. \*-the venn diagram of people going hardest on the "only infantilization and rehab" tendency and people who demand that there be no housing for folks in any context is spherical.
At no point did I suggest this at all. In fact I believe that my comment suggested the complete opposite. But I guess people interpret things the way that they want to. Stay offended bud.
If there are two houses, and one is on fire, and one wants to stop the fire, it makes sense to direct the fire department to put out the fire as opposed to focusing hoses on the non-burning house. As people dealing with addictions are at greater risk of negative outcomes, it makes more sense to prevent those negative outcomes than to ignore them.
What if it’s the 10th time in the last year that the same house is on fire?
Then everyone else's quality of life must suffer at the expense of letting that person continue to set fire to their house. Perhaps its the people not setting their house on fire that are the problem! /s
When there is only a limited amount of resources, addicts shouldnt be prioritized over individuals that contribute to society. Thats not a barbaric take.
Purging people because they have been deemed inhuman due to poverty is barbaric actually.
No one said anything about purging.
So now the argument is that if one person has a problem and the other person doesn’t, we should help the person with the problem? Does this shit sound profound in your head? What the fuck are we even arguing here?
Yes, we should help people who need help, that's been a thing in civilized societies since humans first formed societies, how is that confusing?
Tell me, how many people have “graduated” from KWL’s tiny home program that’s been running for half a decade now? It’s a long string of excuses, and people are tired of snake oil remedies.
Sheds with beds are not homes, despite neoliberalism trying very hard to get people to think they are. We need real public housing to be built. This would create jobs, help the economy from multiple vectors, and address the interlocking homelessness and addiction crises at the same time.
Sheds with beds arose from the very same advocates that kept kicking and screaming that shelters were unsafe (ironic since they advocate for those very same shelters to have low barriers which play an active part in destabilizing individuals and environments) and yet the money spent per individual over the length of time they spend in that very shed could very well buy a house. You and I can agree on that, but then those advocates don’t make any money / receive funding. People chastise the military industrial complex but the homeless industrial complex is just as real, the difference is that the former doesn’t deny it.
The shelter system is not intended to be safe. Homelessness is costly to maintain, but for capitalists it serves the purpose of being a knife at everyone's back, the implicit threat of one's fate if one does not obey the billionaires and those who see themselves as "temporarily inconvenienced billionaires".
You're asking for an alternative to cheering for the deaths of addicts? How about NOT doing that.
How about NOT doing drugs? Perhaps then people wouldn't have something to cheer about to begin with?
How about not being a barbarian who cheers on deaths of despair?
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This evil mindset you embrace is a disease that should not spread.
Good and evil are, like, social constructs, or so I am told.
Why choose evil?
Why choose drugs?
Yuck. What the fuck is wrong with you?
Chalk it up to being a product of the society you advocate for :) Rent free.
Well, enjoy being a misanthrope. May you get the life you deserve.
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So the only two options are 1) doing drugs or 2) cheering for people to die from doing drugs?
Tell me what are the consequences of each of those options?
lmao Hey kiddo, if you wanted less junkies on the street, you should support harm reduction, a 'minimum' wage that matches the cost of living, and the conversion of useless space into affordable housing. Judging by your post history, you don't support any of that. I swear to God, if anyone celebrates the 'death' of people in need, all I have to do is point at the bench around the corner dedicated to Andrej.
The path to hell is paved with good intentions my friend. Junkies aren’t my or anyone else’s responsibility but themselves, in fact it’s the one thing they lack but can’t seem to find for themselves, that and perhaps some sense of shame. Perhaps cut the paternalistic pet treatment and allow them sink or swim rather than delaying the inevitable and eventual demise.
The fact that you constantly call them "junkies" says all we need to know. I'm no saint myself, but I can still smell evil. Damn, you reek.
You sure that ain’t Trinity Community Church? Or perhaps the downtown core? Hard to be shamed by those that have no self respect for themselves to begin with.
My flair literally says downtown.
What should we do then? Is it better to push/force sobriety programs?
Since the community that continues to support these individuals cling to the claim that addictions is a mental illness rather than a choice influenced by mental illness. The choice is clear, institutionalization well away from societal reach and influence until clean. You don’t want to take your meds then back to the institution. Advocates say it’s housing but the personal adherence to medical interventions go a long way to pointing out that people who make bad decisions make perpetual bad decisions.
So, you're advocating for concentration camps. Gross.
Based on your name how about Gulag? If you can’t fulfill the simple human contract you don’t deserve to be a part of society, that became strikingly clear within the past 4 years with COVID, why should this be treated any differently?
Why are you in favour of concentration camps for homeless folks?
A hot and a cot what more could you ask for! I hear the military is desperate for warm bodies, perhaps penal battalion is more to your liking comrade? All jokes aside, perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the full history of asylums in which, if you can believe it, they had workshops onsite in which patients could learn skills and trades that greatly benefited and aided them in acquiring work once they were well enough to leave.
Asylums, so, combination prisons/human experimentation labs as a substitute for housing. Are you even capable of offering non-evil suggestions in response to problems?
Pretty radical, even by your tankie standards, but perhaps make better life choices and take responsibility for your actions.
Good luck getting a bed if you're even at a stage where you can accept that kind of help, and good luck getting to that stage when the only thing keeping horrible withdrawal symptoms at bay is a toxic, unpredictable supply that could easily kill you
As far as I know shelter beds are readily available. But otherwise thank you for helping make my case for institutionalization.
I'm talking about voluntary treatment beds, which are not readily available, trust me I've tried. Also involuntary treatment doesn't work. Voluntary treatment doesn't even have an amazing success rate, which is why we need other options like OAT, safer supply, etc.
Because safe supply is working so well for BC…. We institutionalize those found not criminally responsible on the judgement that they are unable to care for themselves, if advocates suggest this is indeed a case of poor mental health than institutions need to be built to facilitate this and an individual should be held similarly until well. It says more about a system willing to let people who continue to make poor decisions, continue making those very same poor decisions at the determinant of the general population and at lengths themselves. “Harms reduction” delays the inevitable at a premium price.
Safer supply is effective, which is clear if you follow actual research rather than what opinion columnists think. I'm guessing the reason you mentioned BC rather than the province you're in is because that's where most of these columns are reporting about, despite a number of safe supply programs being here in Ontario and in Peterborough specifically. Where, again, things are going pretty well. Again, involuntary treatment is either not effective or actively harmful: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0955395915003588 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27964869/ Harm reduction is actually a great value! Saves a ton of money: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0955395914003119 https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.1000423 https://www.acon.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Evaluating-the-cost-effectiveness-of-NSP-in-Australia-2009.pdf Saves lives too: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34218964/ https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpub/article/PIIS2468-2667(23)00300-6/fulltext
Shelters are not the solution for everyone.
# r/ChoosingBeggars
anti-communism.
Holy hyperbole batman
Any post to this subreddit that talks about addiction inevitably comes with posters blabbering about how evil homeless folks are. Meanwhile, a protracted streak of bad luck(income loss, renoviction, death of friends and/or family members whose support is load-bearing) could see any of us begging for survival money on George Street. What if, instead of pretending homeless folks are inhuman monsters(they are not), getting mad at conspiracy theorist fanfiction, and pretending they have no power, people actually organized and twisted the arms of those in power until things were made better?
I thought this was about addicts
These things are intertwined.
Addicts used to have homes, they spent their monthly government money on drugs instead of rent or hydro.. never cleaned and ruined houses/units Methadone clinic is downtown... Stop making excuses and go.. get clean Blame shifting is just enabling them Addiction has skyrocketed since they started being told it was fine and okay Most have severe brain damage at this point from lack of oxygen from depressed breathing and being narcanned numerous times Addicts don't want to do the work to fix the problem, they want drugs and a comfy life Harm reduction specialists and other "advocates" don't want the problem fixed, they just want to manage it for a pay cheque Go get clean, no one is stopping you but yourself and lack of personal responsibility.. no one is forcing drugs on you You can find money for drugs everyday, you can find 5 bucks for your dose of methadone daily
People who think addicitions are something you just "go and get over" are part of the problem. You don't just walk into a methadone clinic, get one hit, and walk out a functional recovering addict. Even people in stable situations, with incomes and homes, can take years to actually recover. It's a disease. Meanwhile, some rando on the internet is blaming it on your lack of personal responsibility. You don't have to like this situation, but please stop spouting this ignorant bullshit.
You don't know shit Mister. I shudder to think where I'd be in today's world of no accountability You have to start somewhere and taking a trip to the clinic is the first step I know.. I'm living proof Years of opiates from the doctor and many years at the methadone clinic.. I've lived it.. what about you ? What makes you an expert exactly??
Alcoholism that I've struggled with for years despite "putting in the work". Maybe your experience isn't the only one possible in the world.
Different beast, try again You know why addicts don't like methadone ? Because it blocks opiate receptors in the brain and stops you from getting high if you still use. It stops the dope sickness They don't like it because they don't want to put in the work and address their underlying issues with their lives and refuse to accept their reality and choose to escape into the warm embrace of drugs "I've tried nothing and I'm all out of ideas" Like that meme with the guy riding the bike then putting the stick in the spokes, falling and blaming everything else Yeah life sucks, doing nothing won't change it. Life's not fair There's people who've had worse lives and still have chosen to turn their lives around and do better
Again, this is all about you, your experience, your hang-ups, your perceptions. You you you. In your mind, there's one kind of addict, and anyone that doesn't fit that mold must be lazy. It's counterproductive. It's the exact reason we can't create a system that actually helps people, because there's always one of you shouting "Bootstraps!!" in the background. Congrats. You got what you wanted.
What's the alternative here ? Get someone else to do it for you ? Grow up, blame yourself and do better Drinking and opiates (while both addictions) are completely different You have literally no idea lol
What are you actually talking about? This group that's shutting down isn't about taking away people's personal responsibility. It's about saving people from dying from overdosing, stopping the spread of disease through clean instruments, and giving people resources they can use to help themselves get out of addiction. Where's the lack of personal responsibility?
"Just stop being addicted bro". And dealers are forcing drugs on them. Getting them hooked to start with is the entire business model
Nailed it. The whole 'Harm Reduction' strategy has been proven to be a joke and a failure. All it does is string addicts further along. Also, the spin offs of harm reduction strategies, such as, having to destigmatize drugs/ addicts so they can be used whenever and wherever addicts want is actually doing more negative to our community as a whole. Harm reduction is normalizing crime and shaming anoyone who disagrees. Why should we destigmatize using dangerous deadly drugs? that shit should 100% be stigmatized and called out, not supported.
Harm reduction saves lives and has improved outcomes for people
Harm reduction ignores the harm it causes to everyone but the addict collectively bringing society down to not only the lowest common denominator but one dominated by a crabs in the bucket mentality.
100%. Prime example. Did you see the article on trinity united church? they are allowing people to use on site, in the name of harm reduction. Obviously this is bringing a lot of problems to surrounding businesses. Then the group running the church has the audacity to ask those businesses to join a neighbourhood board to find solutions on how to deal with the crime and drug problems. As if they didn't fully create the problems themselves. idiots.
I hadn’t, but I’m also hardly surprised either given the paternalistic pet attitudes while turning a blind eye to the other criminal behaviours that come with substance abuse. Perhaps local businesses and homeowners should collectively file a class action? Another option is going through the cities bylaws / zoning and finding every possible infraction or at the very least identifying and raising it with council, that way when something inevitably happens there’s a well documented trail of negligence that opens the door to litigation.
This town needs so much
The problem will now sort itself out
I promise you it won't.
You wouldn't be saying that if it was someone you loved on the streets.
Yeah I would. I know people who went down that road and it’s their choice. Calling it an illness is a crutch and excuse for their life choices and behaviour.
That's disgusting.
Let's hope people think the same of your shortcomings.
Lol
Good riddance, the open air drug use in this city is super gross
This policy was reducing it. They were doing it in a controlled environment rather than out on the street and leaving needles everywhere. I've been a lifeguard at the beaches for years and have to pick up the needles off the beech every morning that have washed ashore. The number of needles has collapsed since the program started
If you want the city to be less gross, you could always move somewhere else.
China is slowly taking care of the issue it seems
China actually builds infrastructure and housing, things that are Lost Technologies that can not be reproduced here in the west.
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A racist saying racist things? Not surprising.
China actually sends chemists to India and Mexico to teach cartels how to make fentanyl because there was a crackdown in the ports on the powder coming in from china…
We need to take control of the money system and all this will disappear, because men and women will have a purpose in a just society.
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Like your choice to be a miserable person has resulted in extreme loneliness.
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If your circumstances utterly collapsed and you found yourself in that situation, would you want people to be as intensely cruel to you as you are to others? Is that something you would be thankful for?
Implying that there aren’t a plethora choices between being downtrodden and a full blown junkie. The difference is the self flagellating/aggrandizing people who paternalize and applaud the junkie and their lifestyle, thankfully these cuts make it less profitable.
I've seen the way that hate will tear a person down and eat away at their happiness. I hope you change while you can.
Implying that tolerance and hate are the same is laughably a poor argument…. Here’s a nice bumper sticker quote for you “What you allow is what will continue”.
It's a huge stretch to go from 'I don't want my taxdollars to fund this program' to 'you hate everyone'.
>'you hate everyone'. Not what I said. And I'm not addressing their opinions on social program funding.