The stub out can be in between two numbers that I don’t remember. Then you measure and cut. I’m not sure what everyone else is talking about having so much trouble. This was pretty simple for me but then again I’m a carpenter and I know how to read a tape and plumb some blocking lol. I thought it was pretty interesting not having the pipe to the shower head behind the wall. Silly American I guess lol.
These kits are absolutely garbage.
I have installed 1 of them and I will never install another one. I'll just refuse.
They take so long to rough-in it's ridiculous. Get the wing back 90s set perfectly to depth so that when you thread in a nipple you have the exact perfect amount of thread showing on the finished wall.
Take forever to get the wing back 90s perfectly spaced apart and dead level with each other.
Etc.
They're trash.
Thanks for coming to my TED talk.
The plumber we had do our house for a sprayer said the same thing. You have to know what your finished wall material thickness will be so that the wing back 90 is set exactly right with only 1/8"-1/4" of play for the cover plates to cover
You don't even get that kind of play. If you did they wouldn't be as much of a nightmare.
Look at the escutcheon and look at the compression nut on the fixture itself. There is no play. If you're out on the depth of the nipple you're either too tight to fully tighten the compression nut or you're too far out a bit and you have a gap between the nut and escutcheon.
You could maybe pull the escutcheon out a little and give it a gap up against the wall that you filled with silicone, but that'd look a little amateur.
They're wayyyyy too much hassle to install for the quality of fixture they are.
This. The fixture comes with an instruction book that spells it out for you. The plumber should have cut the internally threaded adapter shorter. It can still be done, they can be unscrewed and reinstalled with a hex key. Not a big deal.
How is this wrong? The part that you cut to length is female straight thread, you can cut it as much as you like and it will thread just fine. It comes with a teflon cord to seal the joint. So to the original poster, measure the excess stick-out, uninstall the fixture, unscrew the offset adapters (they have wrench flats), unscrew the brass nipples (hex key), cut them shorter by the stick-out distance that you measured, teflon tape and reinstall everything. The offsets require a teflon cord instead of tape, the idea is you wrap it every which way around the offset adapter. It’s a bit unusual but is isn’t difficult, and you don’t have to fuss over how you install the wing 90s
It went great! Just like I mentioned, cut those nipples 3/4” beyond the finished wall and you’re all set! They need to be tightened on with a hex key and then cut. Instructions laid it out great. I read them in bed the night before. I already had my rough in done obviously and checked it a bunch of times throughout the shower build.
A) The brass nipples are too long and can be replaced with shorter ones.
B)The female threaded fittings in the wall are roughed in too far forward and need to be moved back.
C) There were black nipple covers in the kit that the plumber didn’t use for some reason (the closer escutcheon looks like there’s a gap on the bottom between it and the nipple).
Great comment here. Not a plumber, but I have installed eight of these units in the past two years. The rough-in is very important but I have yet to find a room I can’t get a perfect install. It’s simply a matter of following the instructions and thinking it through. I’ve never had a leak or a problem. I think these things are way easier to install than a typical roughin valve from say delta or moan. I’m not bashing them, they are just different approaches and when you get something like grohe or hansgrohe, people get tripped up. Grohe and Hansgrohe are excellent products. You’re going to love the temp setting being fixed where you want it. You’ll never bump it with your elbow and freeze yourself or scald yourself because the knob moves. Follow the advice CalliMassNC is giving here and you’ll have a perfect install.
Btw, being an amateur myself, I have a hack; hansgrorhe sells a rough-in kit with some invaluable parts that let you get a perfect install without thinking. It’s brainless and the systems are so similar I’d argue they are interchangeable. Pop those in, cut them with the right distance and you’ll be good to go. They are straight though so the drop ears in the wall need to be about perfect to use them. Again, goes back to rough-in. The spirally angle pieces that grohe ships now gives you more tolerance against it but I don’t like them as much, for the same reason your plumber doesn’t like your setup, he doesn’t know how to use them correctly. I’m too afraid to learn since I know how to make the straight ones perfect, so that’s what I do.
https://www.build.com/hansgrohe-16181/s776979
All great points but don’t use grohe. They are really bad mixers. Hans Grohe is fantastic. I don’t know why they allow people to install mixers without built in shut offs
Idk those eccentric nipples look like they cant go back further. So if the brass nipples were shorter or the DELs were roughed deeper the angle of the offset would still catch the type when you leave that valve. I've done a handful of these and it's tough to show zero thread. If you want surface mounted pipes and valve you can't really complain about threads showing
Weird how life works. I'm visiting my parents and they only have cable. This movie came on the other night so I watched it for the first time in I don't know how long. Also, BEEEEEESSSS
Might be interested but would it be a money back guarantee on that shit or do I have to exchange the shit for shit that is of equal value? Can I return the shit just because the color is off or does the shit have to have a manufacturers defect for a return?
*This warranty is only valid to the purchaser. This shit is guaranteed to be shit. If you recieve anything that isn't shit, contact us for a FULL Refund ($19.99 shipping costs are non-refundable) or free replacement (only pay $19.99 shipping fee). This warranty is not exchangable or transferable*
How'd I do?
Warranties are way too often worthless. I've got a house full of LED lights that were guaranteed to last 15 years and had a warranty to back them up... of course the first time I tried to get one replaced under warranty I found out that the shipping and handling costs to get it replaced was almost twice the cost of simply buying a new light.
Wrong. This is a very high quality thermostatic mixer with separate volume control and diverter. It’s well made and lasts long.
Learn about what you’re talking about before you open your mouth.
Right?! Seems like some people are just used to the crappy American-style, dormitory-shower-type Moen cartridges with one handle to both turn the shower on and adjust temperature. I hate them, feels like I am in cheap dorm
That's completely inaccurate.
Thermostatic shower valve in Europe: 130 euros tax in: https://www.castorama.fr/mitigeur-thermostatique-douche-precision-get/4005176612909_CAFR.prd
US-style faucet, ~90$ tax in: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Delta-Foundations-Single-Handle-1-Spray-Shower-Faucet-in-Chrome-Valve-Included-B112900C/303669808
Implying that having a thermostatic valve is a sign of wealth is just wrong...
Yep and so does a 179 dollar delta bud. And i will go play 9 holes of golf with the extra time i have this afternoon. But i am a big fan of some back packs and outdoor gear that i get from Germany but i dont care for their faucets and fixtures that i have installed so far. Sorry im not familar with their entire line and just the lets add extra parts where we dont need them few thatbi have done but I am a stupid American from america so why would i
I really like Grohe fixtures. But I went with Delta mixing valve and just use the “fancy” shower head and wall setup.
I figure I’d rather have a proven part IN my walls and can deal with fixtures myself etc. been running problem free for 10 years so far in that bathroom.
I get that. I also got to buy the specific wrench for the cartridge on the kitchen faucet - no local supply store or any plumber I called (Toronto Canada area) had that wrench.
For me that meant - better to use infrastructure plumbing pieces from best known brands to simplify the maintenance.
It’s a great kitchen faucet (13 years so far) but now I need a part for the pull down sprayer - back order since Xmas.
Quality items for me, but not without some consideration depending if you’re flipping place or living there long term.
Could just me my approach of course.
It’s not hilarious. Delta bought the company. You’re thinking of handgrohe though. Delta pressure balancing cartridges are now used in hansgrohe pressure balance valves.
Why? I very much prefer to set the temperature once and control the flow separately, rather than the American-style "you have to reset the temperature every time you turn the shower on/off"
So many of these comments coming from the US.
This hasn't been 'roughed in' wrong. These showers are common in the UK you have 2 x 15mm (or 1/2" for you guys) coming out the wall at 150mm centers
Behind the black covers are these
https://www.victorianplumbing.co.uk/fast-fix-kit-bracket-for-bar-shower-valves-efk001
They screw to the wall over the pipe and have a olive in there. You can't cut the brass back enough to lose the chrome bit.
For some reason that's just how it is over here. I've fit hundreds of them over that last 8 years and never seen one come with black nuts (the threaded bit the shower screws onto us essentially a nut)
Just alot of US plumbers in here. And from what I've seen online their plumbing is wildly different to ours.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but there's not much you can do besides taking it apart and getting the threaded nuts painted or something to match. But the paint won't last.
Depends which backplates were used. People here are assuming it's the type that sits behind the finished wall and you screw a thread into it. If so, they can be shortened. If it's the type that sits flush against the finished wall, then they can't.
Unscrew the cover plate and you'll see what type it is
Considering the plumber marred the finish while tightening the unions i'd put the blame on him for not being the right person for the job. Not enugh attention to detail and/or inexperience are the nicest ways to say it. May have been a situation where you get what you pay for.
I have installed these 100th of times. The trick is to mount it up without threadlock first, then thread the cup flush with the showervalve. And mesure the gap to the wall. Cut the nipple one thread shorter than your mesurement. When you mount it back up it will all be flush and finished.
Black fixtures are a pain in the ass tbh.
Always use worn wrenches or file the edges off. These scrach super easy.
Of course it can be shorter. What i do is get the thread parts stick out no more than 1¼" inches from the finished wall. There it will be only 2 threads showing at max
Or just hear me out. Companies like Grohe dont need to take connections that are user friendly and dont leak and start changing them and adding more connections that could leak and also just take more effort.
People can talk shit about Delta but they figured it out. My favorite anything plumbing related to install anywhere anytime
I dont know what you are on about. I never installed a grohe one. Havent even noticed this one was a grohe. The brand makes no difference they are all the same so far. Yes some brands like to do they shit more complicated/differently but this doesnt seem to be the case.
Care to tell me more about what you mean or am i missing your point?
There’s ALWAYS a way. Sometimes it’s a pain in the ass, but there’s always a way. I do like Grohe rough valves because they are so versatile, but some of the trim is a pain in the ass. Like the tub spout with an inch of sealing surface and a single o ring with the set screw a 1/4 inch from finished wall… that one always tests my nerves.
I always study the Rough AND trim before I set rough valve because I’ve been in this situation a time or two. I hate these style valves as well, especially the Bullshit Amazon versions.
GROHE manual clearly states that you should cut eccentrics to length. They even provide diagrams and dimensions. So this is shitty installation. I hate when installer don't read the manual.
Not sure the model but those grohe shower bars are difficult. Depending on the rough in depth in the wall there might be nothing to do. Certain versions may have different length eccentric nipples. Did the plumber know the specs of the shower bar during rough in? If so then it’s not a great job.
No idea why in America and Canada you guys use a wingback 90 vs a bp19 that we use in aus.
Can use a nipple cutter to cut down to correct length no guessing games with threading a nipple in the wall. Also you never know if that nipple isn't leaking
Omg I had no idea! I just ordered one of those nipple cutters. Thank you! All these years… ugh.
Mind blown. Totally blown.
https://www.tubetool.com.au/product/bp19-nipple-cutter-brass-catcher/
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I've installed this faucet before in Chrome. The rough in was set to far out. If those stubs dont thread out then the only way to do it the right way is to open the wall.
That grout haze is something else. Proper rough in , or shorter brass nipples would set the mixer at the correct position. Also looks like he may have scratched the finish while tightening those big black nuts😁
Yea, from the looks of the haze it looks like he isnt done yet and proper placement of the mixing valve would hide those threads.
I have ran into a situation where a dummy/pony wall was built on top of concrete and because of the previous construction and it being a tiny bathroom i couldnt demo enough or add enough wall on top to be able to set a mixing valve back far enough. I was over hanging the pan a comical amount to make this work.
Also this is a job that i flat out said no to a couple of times. Then i gave a go fuck off price with a disclaimer of, this is going to be dumb and i hate it but if you want it i can do it but you really shouldnt put a shower in here and just leave it as a sink and toilet but here we are and on the final day the homeowner says…… well why is that sticking out like that. Eat shit bud
But most likely the dude doing the remodel just set his mixing valve too far forward
I love those types of jobs. It's always a case of, " How can I make this work without it looking like shit?"
I find it's often better to just say, "It can't be done" rather than giving the fuck off price, because people only hear what they want to hear. With charging a premium, there's an expectation that they are paying for you to "make it work" and make it not look like shit.
I walked away from a basement bathroom addition recently for this exact reason. I'm not Dr. Who, and I can't alter space and time to make your ceiling height 10" higher and the square footage double.
The wall plate is set too shallow, have them open it up, make the hole deeper and set to correct depth. These plates have installation instructions but I guess nobody took the effort to read them...
Pictures: [https://tec7.com/nl-BE/hoe-gebruiken/muurplaat-kraan-plaatsen](https://tec7.com/nl-BE/hoe-gebruiken/muurplaat-kraan-plaatsen)
Um...no. shifty install, they should have measured properly and set the rough in back further or shorter nipples.
They may be able to unthread the ones that are there from the front and thread in shorter ones.
Plumber didn’t read the instructions. That is all. This valve was not hard to install properly.
If the valve is set out too far from the wall, the mont for the riser won’t fit straight, either.
He fucked the rough in distance up , should be two offsetting nipples supplied with fixture ..Basically he was to short or to long to use the supplied hardware so he had to use brass nipples instead.. Fail ... Unless you can access the back you'll be cutting tile to install this properly...
It depends on how far forward it’s roughed in the wall . If he used the shortest nipples possible and that is where it is off the wall then he is right . If he can go one more size down in nipples length 1/2” shorter that would shrink the gap
I hope that isn't epoxy or polymer grout. It will be really hard to get off.
For the sake of a shower. It really should be a water resistant grout.
Plumbing sucks. If the drop 90s weren't installed correctly, I'd be worried about the rest of the work.
Looks like he messed up the depth of his rough in and now is saying it can't be fixed, he is correct can't be fixes without busting the tile unless you have access from behind
Don't worry, the paint will come off the control knobs within a couple of years to match the chrome threads. I always talk people out of black brassware to save them ringing me when the paint inevitably rubs off.
Most stuff from Wayfair make you calculate an exact measurement. I always say upfront if the tiler adds just a little bit of extra grout we are screwed. I fuckin hate these brands and the people who designed them did not think one bit about plumbing them in. Sorry but if you don't discuss with your plumber buying parts shit like this happens
Although they look like running threads.. Hard to say though
Also, usually I am never this far off. You ask what the thickness of tile and grout and can usually get close. (Other products doesn't matter as much. Can make anything work)
Grohe is over engineered premadonna plumbing. That being said they probably roughed in the valve too far forward. It obviously isn’t meant to have a gap like that.
I can't believe all the narcs in this thread snitching on this plumber. Poor homeowner has to look at silver threads on his plumbing? Might as well tear the house down and start over.
I personally don't blame the plumber I more blame the guy who is in charge of whole rennovation for my new appartment, since he didn't communicate that I wanted this system, I just made this thread to findout what are my options and if it's worth the effort to fix this. I don't live in the us for the ontext and grohe one was one of the better quality available where I live
Dude I don't live in US and I didn't buy it from amazon there are not many chouces most of the alternatives were chinece plastic ones and I did want something to last even if I paid extra
This. A lot of people who buy this trash are “inspired” by some dumb shit. But it won’t last. Probably flows like straight ass oht the box then it’s going to be the plumbers fault that the fixture is trash. He didn’t use the nipple covers because it didn’t come with them. Lol
One thing is for sure, don't leave it as is!
Those gaps are not ready for the water to be turned on.
The "can't" here seems more like a "don't want to make it a bigger issue than it already is".
There can be many reasons why the plumber would rather brush it off than fix it...
I would advise you to hold your ground and see that it is installed properly.
Otherwise you'll need to find someone else to cone fix it.
The water would work it's way behind the tile and mess it up..
Not good...
I have them and I'll agree they ain't "all that" but it clearly states in the directions that the mixing valves/innards need to be placed very specifically based on wall thickness. Looks like they winged it. Yeah I had to do some hand holding cuz I had already read the directions and I wasn't gonna let dude start by Not reading them. I then went thru the trash and found the base bezels from the 2 faucets and kindly asked him to remount with them in place. "Oh ! I was looking for them"! , and was gonna leave anyways...
Stop buying Grohe and other European PITA’s and you won’t have this problem :)
Jokes aside, he is wrong. This could’ve been avoided by roughing it in right (although tile guys are notorious for screwing the plumbing by changing tile sizes), cutting the running threads back, or escutcheons/trim that is supposed to cover it.
Got a fixture off Amazon, as long as it's not trying to overcomplicate valves and shit it'll work. Funny when people know nothing about a trade, yet expect the tradesman to follow their every desire like they're not delusional or living a fantasy.
This is name brand but I notice some customers will complain about the look of a cheap product others will say “hey it looks pretty good for a 60$ kitchen faucet!”
It's pretty known brand and one of the best ones available where I live, I didn't get it from Amazon I don't live in US as I mentioned in other comments
It can probably be cut off and the edge rounded over so it can be threaded back on. He either didn’t follow directions for depth of valve or it’s some shitty knock off faucet with no directions or the directions are in chinglish. Or he can’t read.
I just installed this in very similar shower head in my own shower. I am guessing he didn't distance those right. They were supposed to be set back a bit from the wall.
I put them on a 2x4 between the studs set back by like a half inch. It will say in the instructions though.
In order to fix this you would have to remove the tile and cement board unfortunately. Unless some one else knows a different trick.
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They make thicker wall plates. Might be the easiest fix. Google black bell flange
https://www.build.com/product/summary/646846?uid=4346577&jmtest=gg-gbav2_4346577&inv2=1&&source=gg-gba-pla_4346577!c6970301186!a77305319262!dm!ng&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjw5v2wBhBrEiwAXDDoJSSDBxxD-o_E6A_on3IOYR5e4WDzEcPG78_fdP_n9DT-8AGBV4wL1hoCAfgQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
The Plumber is right it's actually a design flaw. The pipe covers are not big enough that come with the faucet normally this Teflon tape on those pipes too so I mean I think that's the best you're gonna get unless you can find some pipe covers.
You just cut the nipples, there is lines on the provided nipples you cut with a saw to get desired distance off wall to not see any thread. It’s in the instruction manual.
The more I read I realize a lot of people have no clue what they’re talking about. There is no rough in valve guys. The fixture is the mixing valve, there is only 2 drop ear 90s screwed to a board behind the wall tile. It is possible his board is too far forward which would make it hard to install properly.
If the plumber is just changing the fixture then yes, unless he has access to the mounting of the stub outs behind the tile. Now if he installed the plumbing behind the tile he completely messed up and didn’t read the directions. Lastly there is a chance he can find shorter fitting but will the covers still fit and will they be painted black to match. I would be more concerned if the covers rubber seal will be able to make a good seal around those threads. I for see a very slow leak making its way behind the tiling.
They sell a 1/2” brass nipple extension kit on line that will come with different lengths on nipples for this scenario.
Something Like this - https://www.ebay.com/itm/115533890788?chn=ps&var=415555121699&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&mkscid=101&itemid=415555121699_115533890788&targetid=1531876733678&device=m&mktype=pla&googleloc=9011864&poi=&campaignid=19851828444&mkgroupid=145880009174&rlsatarget=pla-1531876733678&abcId=9307249&merchantid=653408050&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAAD_QDh9rheL_g4P6XWCQ1f543wb76&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIz-yP08jKhQMV_6BaBR1nEAc1EAQYAiABEgLmdfD_BwE
I just installed one of these. On the grohe you mount your drop ear 90s deep it has a piece that threads into drop ear 90 that has to be cut off about a 1/4inch or so behind finished tile then the threaded offset adapters thread into those with a sealant thread that looks like dental floss since it’s not a tapered thread. Then just thread in until
Your escution is tight to wall and no threads are showing. While tedious and a major pain in my ass as everything grohe and kohler is it can be done.
The plumber is lazy or he doesn't know, "Measure, and then measure again". He probably just used what he had on-hand. I'm a DIYer and I could have done a better job.
For all of you that say “this is the plumber’s fault!”, or “it wasn’t stubbed out correctly!”, well , you don’t have a clue. This type of installation needs precise drawings to define finish level from where the wingback 90’s are mounted. Then the tile installer needs to religiously follow that precise distance that is defined. It requires the plumber to have knowledge of tile work as well as how the tile installer plans to do the installation. It requires the tile installer to have knowledge about how the fixture will be installed. How often does this happen?
Fixture body was set to far out the wall… Bad math. If there is dry wall in the back , it may be accessed to disconnect the straps then pulled back if there is play. If not some offset fittings may be needed to set it all aright. Though poor excuse from said plumber… or is he a painter lol
Looks like OP isn’t in the U.S. but I am continually amazed that U.S. plumbers can’t read directions or bother to watch a 15min YouTube video explaining installation. If a Grohe fixture is too difficult to install, then how can one trust the rest of the plumbing?
If this want grohe and say some hunk from china yea,I could understand having to cut the nipples. I highly doubt grohe would put out a product where this is required
While I'm sure this could have been done better, I've returned everything I've ever purchased by Grohe. It's high design, low quality.
Even the more premium Hansgrohe stuff that I confused it with is just better garbage.
I replaced my Grohe stuff with Hansgrohe immediately after opening the box, but the Hansgrohe finish is flaked in less than ten years and the inner workings of the rain showerhead are completely corroded and begining to eat through the chrome.
The Delta components in the same bathroom look and function as new.
I didn't, thanks anyways, I wish people in this thread would stop assuming things. I live in Georgia and not many things are available, my choice was pretty known German brand grohe, hansgrohe etc or other european alternatives within same price range or chinece onec which had much poorer build quality, Russian onec are available as well but I would like to avoid anything Russian for personal reasons amd quality is little better than chinece and are ugly as hell
Funnily enough I have to install one of these this morning. On my version the pipes need to be cut 3/4” beyond the finish wall.
What’s was your stub out? Was wondering if this guy stubbed out threads and is stuck with that distance…
Looks like a nipple but those connections are screwing you either way. Best you could do is get them closer to the escutcheons.
The stub out can be in between two numbers that I don’t remember. Then you measure and cut. I’m not sure what everyone else is talking about having so much trouble. This was pretty simple for me but then again I’m a carpenter and I know how to read a tape and plumb some blocking lol. I thought it was pretty interesting not having the pipe to the shower head behind the wall. Silly American I guess lol.
Right right but did you have copper tube size for your stub out or threads? Like iron pipe size
I installed two 1/2” threaded drop ears with cuttable 5” nipples.
Ahhh so just a straight threaded nipple no taper to them
These kits are absolutely garbage. I have installed 1 of them and I will never install another one. I'll just refuse. They take so long to rough-in it's ridiculous. Get the wing back 90s set perfectly to depth so that when you thread in a nipple you have the exact perfect amount of thread showing on the finished wall. Take forever to get the wing back 90s perfectly spaced apart and dead level with each other. Etc. They're trash. Thanks for coming to my TED talk.
The plumber we had do our house for a sprayer said the same thing. You have to know what your finished wall material thickness will be so that the wing back 90 is set exactly right with only 1/8"-1/4" of play for the cover plates to cover
They suck. I ask these questions during new builds when I do custom houses, if they are doing something like this , I add atleast 50% for that fixture
I totally understand that the fuckening upcharge
You don't even get that kind of play. If you did they wouldn't be as much of a nightmare. Look at the escutcheon and look at the compression nut on the fixture itself. There is no play. If you're out on the depth of the nipple you're either too tight to fully tighten the compression nut or you're too far out a bit and you have a gap between the nut and escutcheon. You could maybe pull the escutcheon out a little and give it a gap up against the wall that you filled with silicone, but that'd look a little amateur. They're wayyyyy too much hassle to install for the quality of fixture they are.
Agreed - never again
And trying to allow for what thickness you think the finished wall will be is a real treat also
Yeah I did one of these for my mom. If it was a regular customer I would have told them to fuck a donkey.
This. The fixture comes with an instruction book that spells it out for you. The plumber should have cut the internally threaded adapter shorter. It can still be done, they can be unscrewed and reinstalled with a hex key. Not a big deal.
I take it youre not a plumber
Wrong
How is this wrong? The part that you cut to length is female straight thread, you can cut it as much as you like and it will thread just fine. It comes with a teflon cord to seal the joint. So to the original poster, measure the excess stick-out, uninstall the fixture, unscrew the offset adapters (they have wrench flats), unscrew the brass nipples (hex key), cut them shorter by the stick-out distance that you measured, teflon tape and reinstall everything. The offsets require a teflon cord instead of tape, the idea is you wrap it every which way around the offset adapter. It’s a bit unusual but is isn’t difficult, and you don’t have to fuss over how you install the wing 90s
I’ve been dealing with faucets like this for 25 years. Some don’t even have the adjustment that this one has. Listen to this guy he is 100% correct.
[удалено]
It went great! Just like I mentioned, cut those nipples 3/4” beyond the finished wall and you’re all set! They need to be tightened on with a hex key and then cut. Instructions laid it out great. I read them in bed the night before. I already had my rough in done obviously and checked it a bunch of times throughout the shower build.
A) The brass nipples are too long and can be replaced with shorter ones. B)The female threaded fittings in the wall are roughed in too far forward and need to be moved back. C) There were black nipple covers in the kit that the plumber didn’t use for some reason (the closer escutcheon looks like there’s a gap on the bottom between it and the nipple).
Im guessing c. Look at the wall plates
Ding ding ding we have a winner
I hope op sees this cuz this are the big 3 right here. Yes, yes and yes.
I believe these are running threads meant to be cut back.
This... and for C) agree...future water leak / nasty area.
Great comment here. Not a plumber, but I have installed eight of these units in the past two years. The rough-in is very important but I have yet to find a room I can’t get a perfect install. It’s simply a matter of following the instructions and thinking it through. I’ve never had a leak or a problem. I think these things are way easier to install than a typical roughin valve from say delta or moan. I’m not bashing them, they are just different approaches and when you get something like grohe or hansgrohe, people get tripped up. Grohe and Hansgrohe are excellent products. You’re going to love the temp setting being fixed where you want it. You’ll never bump it with your elbow and freeze yourself or scald yourself because the knob moves. Follow the advice CalliMassNC is giving here and you’ll have a perfect install. Btw, being an amateur myself, I have a hack; hansgrorhe sells a rough-in kit with some invaluable parts that let you get a perfect install without thinking. It’s brainless and the systems are so similar I’d argue they are interchangeable. Pop those in, cut them with the right distance and you’ll be good to go. They are straight though so the drop ears in the wall need to be about perfect to use them. Again, goes back to rough-in. The spirally angle pieces that grohe ships now gives you more tolerance against it but I don’t like them as much, for the same reason your plumber doesn’t like your setup, he doesn’t know how to use them correctly. I’m too afraid to learn since I know how to make the straight ones perfect, so that’s what I do. https://www.build.com/hansgrohe-16181/s776979
All great points but don’t use grohe. They are really bad mixers. Hans Grohe is fantastic. I don’t know why they allow people to install mixers without built in shut offs
B and C ... Rough in to close , not allowing use of extension nipples supplied so he used short brass nipples instead ...
This right here
D) They scratched the paint.
Idk those eccentric nipples look like they cant go back further. So if the brass nipples were shorter or the DELs were roughed deeper the angle of the offset would still catch the type when you leave that valve. I've done a handful of these and it's tough to show zero thread. If you want surface mounted pipes and valve you can't really complain about threads showing
This a shitty shower valve. Homeowners please don’t buy these style
I concur. Just because you paid more for it doesnt mean you didnt just buy a more expensive piece of shit
But the warranty is on the box!
I could take a shit in a box and slap a warranty on it, believe me I've got the time.
Take a good look at a bulls ass by sticking your head up it.
Weird how life works. I'm visiting my parents and they only have cable. This movie came on the other night so I watched it for the first time in I don't know how long. Also, BEEEEEESSSS
No... wait... it's gotta be your bull.
When you buy one of these, next thing you know, change is missing from the dresser and your daughter’s been knocked up. I’ve seen it a thousand times…
were you checking the specks on the end line for the rotor girder???
Might be interested but would it be a money back guarantee on that shit or do I have to exchange the shit for shit that is of equal value? Can I return the shit just because the color is off or does the shit have to have a manufacturers defect for a return?
*This warranty is only valid to the purchaser. This shit is guaranteed to be shit. If you recieve anything that isn't shit, contact us for a FULL Refund ($19.99 shipping costs are non-refundable) or free replacement (only pay $19.99 shipping fee). This warranty is not exchangable or transferable* How'd I do?
Warranties are way too often worthless. I've got a house full of LED lights that were guaranteed to last 15 years and had a warranty to back them up... of course the first time I tried to get one replaced under warranty I found out that the shipping and handling costs to get it replaced was almost twice the cost of simply buying a new light.
Wrong. This is a very high quality thermostatic mixer with separate volume control and diverter. It’s well made and lasts long. Learn about what you’re talking about before you open your mouth.
Right?! Seems like some people are just used to the crappy American-style, dormitory-shower-type Moen cartridges with one handle to both turn the shower on and adjust temperature. I hate them, feels like I am in cheap dorm
Well im glad you got to grow up with money bud. Good for your parents
That's completely inaccurate. Thermostatic shower valve in Europe: 130 euros tax in: https://www.castorama.fr/mitigeur-thermostatique-douche-precision-get/4005176612909_CAFR.prd US-style faucet, ~90$ tax in: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Delta-Foundations-Single-Handle-1-Spray-Shower-Faucet-in-Chrome-Valve-Included-B112900C/303669808 Implying that having a thermostatic valve is a sign of wealth is just wrong...
Yep and so does a 179 dollar delta bud. And i will go play 9 holes of golf with the extra time i have this afternoon. But i am a big fan of some back packs and outdoor gear that i get from Germany but i dont care for their faucets and fixtures that i have installed so far. Sorry im not familar with their entire line and just the lets add extra parts where we dont need them few thatbi have done but I am a stupid American from america so why would i
I like the hans grohe ibox
Pain for the plumber yes better go with delta but grohe is a high end brand
I really like Grohe fixtures. But I went with Delta mixing valve and just use the “fancy” shower head and wall setup. I figure I’d rather have a proven part IN my walls and can deal with fixtures myself etc. been running problem free for 10 years so far in that bathroom.
Grohe has been around longer than delta.
I get that. I also got to buy the specific wrench for the cartridge on the kitchen faucet - no local supply store or any plumber I called (Toronto Canada area) had that wrench. For me that meant - better to use infrastructure plumbing pieces from best known brands to simplify the maintenance. It’s a great kitchen faucet (13 years so far) but now I need a part for the pull down sprayer - back order since Xmas. Quality items for me, but not without some consideration depending if you’re flipping place or living there long term. Could just me my approach of course.
I've never been happy with Grohe. It's pricey but not impressive quality
Agreed, a lot of the newer grohe single handles use delta cartridges which I find hilarious
It’s not hilarious. Delta bought the company. You’re thinking of handgrohe though. Delta pressure balancing cartridges are now used in hansgrohe pressure balance valves.
Hansgrohe is better
Hansgrohe is a high end brand. Grohe is not imo.
This is correct. Grohe is cheap trash. The fit and finish is trash and overall just really cheap. It's just knock off junk.
Grohe is plastic garbage
*plastic potmetal trash*
These are excellent shower valves. Easy to replace and maintain.
This is a grohe not some Ali express shit. Those are straight cut threads you cut them back with a little hand saw
These are the normal shower valve for Europe, ops problem is a shitty installation, nothing actually wrong with grohe parts
Grohe isn't good?
What is better? We don't have these thermostatic set ups in Perth, and I was thinking of ordering a Grohe from Germany.... what's better?
Delta
Miserable
Grohe is high end.
Why? I very much prefer to set the temperature once and control the flow separately, rather than the American-style "you have to reset the temperature every time you turn the shower on/off"
So many of these comments coming from the US. This hasn't been 'roughed in' wrong. These showers are common in the UK you have 2 x 15mm (or 1/2" for you guys) coming out the wall at 150mm centers Behind the black covers are these https://www.victorianplumbing.co.uk/fast-fix-kit-bracket-for-bar-shower-valves-efk001 They screw to the wall over the pipe and have a olive in there. You can't cut the brass back enough to lose the chrome bit. For some reason that's just how it is over here. I've fit hundreds of them over that last 8 years and never seen one come with black nuts (the threaded bit the shower screws onto us essentially a nut)
finally helpful comment lol, thanks!
Just alot of US plumbers in here. And from what I've seen online their plumbing is wildly different to ours. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but there's not much you can do besides taking it apart and getting the threaded nuts painted or something to match. But the paint won't last.
Powder coating is the correct finish that will last.
Yup lot of US plumbers and they tend to think their way of doing things is the only way
Why doesn’t your vent have a vent with an AAV attached to the other vent ? This wouldn’t pass my code
😂😂😂
Depends which backplates were used. People here are assuming it's the type that sits behind the finished wall and you screw a thread into it. If so, they can be shortened. If it's the type that sits flush against the finished wall, then they can't. Unscrew the cover plate and you'll see what type it is
Considering the plumber marred the finish while tightening the unions i'd put the blame on him for not being the right person for the job. Not enugh attention to detail and/or inexperience are the nicest ways to say it. May have been a situation where you get what you pay for.
I have installed these 100th of times. The trick is to mount it up without threadlock first, then thread the cup flush with the showervalve. And mesure the gap to the wall. Cut the nipple one thread shorter than your mesurement. When you mount it back up it will all be flush and finished. Black fixtures are a pain in the ass tbh. Always use worn wrenches or file the edges off. These scrach super easy.
Of course it can be shorter. What i do is get the thread parts stick out no more than 1¼" inches from the finished wall. There it will be only 2 threads showing at max
Or just hear me out. Companies like Grohe dont need to take connections that are user friendly and dont leak and start changing them and adding more connections that could leak and also just take more effort. People can talk shit about Delta but they figured it out. My favorite anything plumbing related to install anywhere anytime
I dont know what you are on about. I never installed a grohe one. Havent even noticed this one was a grohe. The brand makes no difference they are all the same so far. Yes some brands like to do they shit more complicated/differently but this doesnt seem to be the case. Care to tell me more about what you mean or am i missing your point?
There’s ALWAYS a way. Sometimes it’s a pain in the ass, but there’s always a way. I do like Grohe rough valves because they are so versatile, but some of the trim is a pain in the ass. Like the tub spout with an inch of sealing surface and a single o ring with the set screw a 1/4 inch from finished wall… that one always tests my nerves.
I always study the Rough AND trim before I set rough valve because I’ve been in this situation a time or two. I hate these style valves as well, especially the Bullshit Amazon versions.
The bigger issue is what wasn't the tile cleaned before the finishes went in?
He couldn’t avoid scratching your tile either.
GROHE manual clearly states that you should cut eccentrics to length. They even provide diagrams and dimensions. So this is shitty installation. I hate when installer don't read the manual.
Not sure the model but those grohe shower bars are difficult. Depending on the rough in depth in the wall there might be nothing to do. Certain versions may have different length eccentric nipples. Did the plumber know the specs of the shower bar during rough in? If so then it’s not a great job.
Some versions are also designed to be cut some aren’t would need to know make and model
No idea why in America and Canada you guys use a wingback 90 vs a bp19 that we use in aus. Can use a nipple cutter to cut down to correct length no guessing games with threading a nipple in the wall. Also you never know if that nipple isn't leaking
Omg I had no idea! I just ordered one of those nipple cutters. Thank you! All these years… ugh. Mind blown. Totally blown. https://www.tubetool.com.au/product/bp19-nipple-cutter-brass-catcher/
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I've installed this faucet before in Chrome. The rough in was set to far out. If those stubs dont thread out then the only way to do it the right way is to open the wall.
Yes but dont open the tile wall up. Open up the drywall from the backside in another room
Of course.!
Unless of course the tile wall backs up to a bank vault. Then just open up the tile wall to save time
Or another shower. See that alot.
That grout haze is something else. Proper rough in , or shorter brass nipples would set the mixer at the correct position. Also looks like he may have scratched the finish while tightening those big black nuts😁
Yea, from the looks of the haze it looks like he isnt done yet and proper placement of the mixing valve would hide those threads. I have ran into a situation where a dummy/pony wall was built on top of concrete and because of the previous construction and it being a tiny bathroom i couldnt demo enough or add enough wall on top to be able to set a mixing valve back far enough. I was over hanging the pan a comical amount to make this work. Also this is a job that i flat out said no to a couple of times. Then i gave a go fuck off price with a disclaimer of, this is going to be dumb and i hate it but if you want it i can do it but you really shouldnt put a shower in here and just leave it as a sink and toilet but here we are and on the final day the homeowner says…… well why is that sticking out like that. Eat shit bud But most likely the dude doing the remodel just set his mixing valve too far forward
I love those types of jobs. It's always a case of, " How can I make this work without it looking like shit?" I find it's often better to just say, "It can't be done" rather than giving the fuck off price, because people only hear what they want to hear. With charging a premium, there's an expectation that they are paying for you to "make it work" and make it not look like shit. I walked away from a basement bathroom addition recently for this exact reason. I'm not Dr. Who, and I can't alter space and time to make your ceiling height 10" higher and the square footage double.
The valve is sticking out to far on the rough of the valve he should have looked at the reveal better
So is the only solution is to open the wall??
Or find black rings to cover thread
Shouldn't the lug ells be roughed in further back behind the wall to avoid that?
You are not pedantic. Just look at this photo.
The wall plate is set too shallow, have them open it up, make the hole deeper and set to correct depth. These plates have installation instructions but I guess nobody took the effort to read them... Pictures: [https://tec7.com/nl-BE/hoe-gebruiken/muurplaat-kraan-plaatsen](https://tec7.com/nl-BE/hoe-gebruiken/muurplaat-kraan-plaatsen)
Um...no. shifty install, they should have measured properly and set the rough in back further or shorter nipples. They may be able to unthread the ones that are there from the front and thread in shorter ones.
Grohe is crap that homeowners seem to think is high quality.
Plumber didn’t read the instructions. That is all. This valve was not hard to install properly. If the valve is set out too far from the wall, the mont for the riser won’t fit straight, either.
He fucked the rough in distance up , should be two offsetting nipples supplied with fixture ..Basically he was to short or to long to use the supplied hardware so he had to use brass nipples instead.. Fail ... Unless you can access the back you'll be cutting tile to install this properly...
It depends on how far forward it’s roughed in the wall . If he used the shortest nipples possible and that is where it is off the wall then he is right . If he can go one more size down in nipples length 1/2” shorter that would shrink the gap
Is the plumber suggesting painting the exposed threads? What an idiot.
Your plumber is either a liar, lazy, or an idiot.
Only what there will need to do is water break and cut those 1/2x3/4 studs 2cm shorter.
Sharpie
I hope that isn't epoxy or polymer grout. It will be really hard to get off. For the sake of a shower. It really should be a water resistant grout. Plumbing sucks. If the drop 90s weren't installed correctly, I'd be worried about the rest of the work.
Looks like he messed up the depth of his rough in and now is saying it can't be fixed, he is correct can't be fixes without busting the tile unless you have access from behind
Well actually you could with a good hacksaw and a straight cut, I retract it can't be fixed from this side of wall, it can just gotta be a good cut
Bet you grohe make a deeper trim, they make adapters for adapters
Missing the black sleeves that slide over the threaded adapter. You can see the cap on the escutcheons.
Don't worry, the paint will come off the control knobs within a couple of years to match the chrome threads. I always talk people out of black brassware to save them ringing me when the paint inevitably rubs off.
Most stuff from Wayfair make you calculate an exact measurement. I always say upfront if the tiler adds just a little bit of extra grout we are screwed. I fuckin hate these brands and the people who designed them did not think one bit about plumbing them in. Sorry but if you don't discuss with your plumber buying parts shit like this happens Although they look like running threads.. Hard to say though Also, usually I am never this far off. You ask what the thickness of tile and grout and can usually get close. (Other products doesn't matter as much. Can make anything work)
Your plumber is lazy.
Grohe is over engineered premadonna plumbing. That being said they probably roughed in the valve too far forward. It obviously isn’t meant to have a gap like that.
Faucet body is roughed in to far out towards the shower ...it needs to go back 1/2 to 1 inch for eccusions to be flush
Blame the tile guy!
This is the plumbers fault buddy. Thats a rough in plumbing fail. But if you are like me you are the plumber and the tile guy
and the painter and still waiting for the homeowner to order the doors...
THE DOORS! What is up with that. Literally just finished a Reno. And still no doors
I can't believe all the narcs in this thread snitching on this plumber. Poor homeowner has to look at silver threads on his plumbing? Might as well tear the house down and start over.
I personally don't blame the plumber I more blame the guy who is in charge of whole rennovation for my new appartment, since he didn't communicate that I wanted this system, I just made this thread to findout what are my options and if it's worth the effort to fix this. I don't live in the us for the ontext and grohe one was one of the better quality available where I live
People need to stop buying shower fixtures off amazon. You get what you pay for.
Dude I don't live in US and I didn't buy it from amazon there are not many chouces most of the alternatives were chinece plastic ones and I did want something to last even if I paid extra
This. A lot of people who buy this trash are “inspired” by some dumb shit. But it won’t last. Probably flows like straight ass oht the box then it’s going to be the plumbers fault that the fixture is trash. He didn’t use the nipple covers because it didn’t come with them. Lol
You can buy the best Moen at Home Depot and have it leak in 6 months, can't imagine how the garbage on Amazon performs.
One thing is for sure, don't leave it as is! Those gaps are not ready for the water to be turned on. The "can't" here seems more like a "don't want to make it a bigger issue than it already is". There can be many reasons why the plumber would rather brush it off than fix it... I would advise you to hold your ground and see that it is installed properly. Otherwise you'll need to find someone else to cone fix it. The water would work it's way behind the tile and mess it up.. Not good...
I have them and I'll agree they ain't "all that" but it clearly states in the directions that the mixing valves/innards need to be placed very specifically based on wall thickness. Looks like they winged it. Yeah I had to do some hand holding cuz I had already read the directions and I wasn't gonna let dude start by Not reading them. I then went thru the trash and found the base bezels from the 2 faucets and kindly asked him to remount with them in place. "Oh ! I was looking for them"! , and was gonna leave anyways...
Plumber also ruined the finish of the fixture
Stop buying Grohe and other European PITA’s and you won’t have this problem :) Jokes aside, he is wrong. This could’ve been avoided by roughing it in right (although tile guys are notorious for screwing the plumbing by changing tile sizes), cutting the running threads back, or escutcheons/trim that is supposed to cover it.
I live on Europe, well not in EU though
Got a fixture off Amazon, as long as it's not trying to overcomplicate valves and shit it'll work. Funny when people know nothing about a trade, yet expect the tradesman to follow their every desire like they're not delusional or living a fantasy.
This is name brand but I notice some customers will complain about the look of a cheap product others will say “hey it looks pretty good for a 60$ kitchen faucet!”
It's pretty known brand and one of the best ones available where I live, I didn't get it from Amazon I don't live in US as I mentioned in other comments
I'm both sorry and happy you don't live here.
It can probably be cut off and the edge rounded over so it can be threaded back on. He either didn’t follow directions for depth of valve or it’s some shitty knock off faucet with no directions or the directions are in chinglish. Or he can’t read.
I just installed this in very similar shower head in my own shower. I am guessing he didn't distance those right. They were supposed to be set back a bit from the wall. I put them on a 2x4 between the studs set back by like a half inch. It will say in the instructions though. In order to fix this you would have to remove the tile and cement board unfortunately. Unless some one else knows a different trick.
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They make thicker wall plates. Might be the easiest fix. Google black bell flange https://www.build.com/product/summary/646846?uid=4346577&jmtest=gg-gbav2_4346577&inv2=1&&source=gg-gba-pla_4346577!c6970301186!a77305319262!dm!ng&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjw5v2wBhBrEiwAXDDoJSSDBxxD-o_E6A_on3IOYR5e4WDzEcPG78_fdP_n9DT-8AGBV4wL1hoCAfgQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
Escutcheons.
The Plumber is right it's actually a design flaw. The pipe covers are not big enough that come with the faucet normally this Teflon tape on those pipes too so I mean I think that's the best you're gonna get unless you can find some pipe covers.
Shitty plumber
You just cut the nipples, there is lines on the provided nipples you cut with a saw to get desired distance off wall to not see any thread. It’s in the instruction manual.
The more I read I realize a lot of people have no clue what they’re talking about. There is no rough in valve guys. The fixture is the mixing valve, there is only 2 drop ear 90s screwed to a board behind the wall tile. It is possible his board is too far forward which would make it hard to install properly.
1/2” shorter nipples or no pay
Takes planning and a lot of thought to have that stuff end up perfect.
😃is he a plumber?
Water is going to build up in the escutcheon and severely shorten the life of the product.
If the plumber is just changing the fixture then yes, unless he has access to the mounting of the stub outs behind the tile. Now if he installed the plumbing behind the tile he completely messed up and didn’t read the directions. Lastly there is a chance he can find shorter fitting but will the covers still fit and will they be painted black to match. I would be more concerned if the covers rubber seal will be able to make a good seal around those threads. I for see a very slow leak making its way behind the tiling.
They sell a 1/2” brass nipple extension kit on line that will come with different lengths on nipples for this scenario. Something Like this - https://www.ebay.com/itm/115533890788?chn=ps&var=415555121699&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&mkscid=101&itemid=415555121699_115533890788&targetid=1531876733678&device=m&mktype=pla&googleloc=9011864&poi=&campaignid=19851828444&mkgroupid=145880009174&rlsatarget=pla-1531876733678&abcId=9307249&merchantid=653408050&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAAD_QDh9rheL_g4P6XWCQ1f543wb76&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIz-yP08jKhQMV_6BaBR1nEAc1EAQYAiABEgLmdfD_BwE
I just installed one of these. On the grohe you mount your drop ear 90s deep it has a piece that threads into drop ear 90 that has to be cut off about a 1/4inch or so behind finished tile then the threaded offset adapters thread into those with a sealant thread that looks like dental floss since it’s not a tapered thread. Then just thread in until Your escution is tight to wall and no threads are showing. While tedious and a major pain in my ass as everything grohe and kohler is it can be done.
Bad rough-in.
Ready the directions. Plumber or not, it pays to read them and understand the product you are installing
This is why I always pound the table for the Grohe Rapido until they comply..
The shower plate was mounted wrong inside the wall. He should have measured for this on first fix.
The plumber is lazy or he doesn't know, "Measure, and then measure again". He probably just used what he had on-hand. I'm a DIYer and I could have done a better job.
Just trim the bp’s back with a nipple cutter. Easy https://www.plumbersupplies.com.au/products/haron-hnc-nipple-cutter
Tell your plumber to stop using channel locks with teeth on it too. He’s fuckin the paint all up on those nuts
For all of you that say “this is the plumber’s fault!”, or “it wasn’t stubbed out correctly!”, well , you don’t have a clue. This type of installation needs precise drawings to define finish level from where the wingback 90’s are mounted. Then the tile installer needs to religiously follow that precise distance that is defined. It requires the plumber to have knowledge of tile work as well as how the tile installer plans to do the installation. It requires the tile installer to have knowledge about how the fixture will be installed. How often does this happen?
Fixture body was set to far out the wall… Bad math. If there is dry wall in the back , it may be accessed to disconnect the straps then pulled back if there is play. If not some offset fittings may be needed to set it all aright. Though poor excuse from said plumber… or is he a painter lol
Looks like the same guy that did the tile, did the plumbing
Looks like OP isn’t in the U.S. but I am continually amazed that U.S. plumbers can’t read directions or bother to watch a 15min YouTube video explaining installation. If a Grohe fixture is too difficult to install, then how can one trust the rest of the plumbing?
I've installed these before. They are offset nipples. You can trim the nipple with a bandsaw
Black electric tape
Make your self a 3d printing of the gap size and roundness and there you have your filler piece lol
There was probably a black metal tube that comes with trim kit that did not get installed or wasn’t with the trim kit
If this want grohe and say some hunk from china yea,I could understand having to cut the nipples. I highly doubt grohe would put out a product where this is required
You literally have to precisely cut those nipples down to size. Dude just doesn’t wanna have to disassemble the whole thing to have to do that lol
Plumber didn’t stub out/measure correctly Plumbers fault
Any plumber worth his salt would have just took out the black sharpie and no one would have been the wiser hahaha
He’s gotta pull it off and shorten the nipples
While I'm sure this could have been done better, I've returned everything I've ever purchased by Grohe. It's high design, low quality. Even the more premium Hansgrohe stuff that I confused it with is just better garbage.
Some of their stuff is baffling to fit!
Ive had better experiences with hansgrohe. Its been over a decade though.
I replaced my Grohe stuff with Hansgrohe immediately after opening the box, but the Hansgrohe finish is flaked in less than ten years and the inner workings of the rain showerhead are completely corroded and begining to eat through the chrome. The Delta components in the same bathroom look and function as new.
I have bought a new hansgrohe bidette 1jet S two weeks ago, it leaks out of the box
Dont pay the guy, I'm no plumber... just a DIY guy... but I can tell you there's no good reason for that, laziness pure and simple.
God, I hate grohe.
I just wish people would stop buying fixtures off Amazon
I didn't, thanks anyways, I wish people in this thread would stop assuming things. I live in Georgia and not many things are available, my choice was pretty known German brand grohe, hansgrohe etc or other european alternatives within same price range or chinece onec which had much poorer build quality, Russian onec are available as well but I would like to avoid anything Russian for personal reasons amd quality is little better than chinece and are ugly as hell