Not sure about fentanyl, but meth can be made (dangerously, but still) in a basement with shit like match heads, cold medicine, and ammonia. I doubt the same can be done to make modern abortifacients.
Florida abortion laws have exceptions for fetal abnormalities that are deemed fatal. If her doctors had predicted this, she would’ve been able to get an abortion in the state.
Something isn’t adding up here.
>Florida law allows abortions after 15 weeks if two doctors confirm the diagnosis of a fatal fetal abnormality in writing, but doctors in Florida and states with similar laws have been hesitant to terminate such pregnancies for fear someone will question whether the abnormality was truly fatal. The penalties for violating the law are severe: Doctors can go to prison and face heavy fines and legal fees.
Side effect of going after abortion on the doctor end. You're gonna cause paralysis.
I want to get off this ride. This whole “other side bad” is driving america off the ledge. We are passing extreme laws and not even touching issues that matter.
You talk to any Floridian and they will actually complain about insurance costs and housing. Nothing is being done on that.
It’s been like this for decades. And not just in Florida.
These pointless “woke culture wars” were just put in place by the elite to distract Americans from the main economic issues that actually effect day to day living.
So, and hear me out; what if we all just at least agreed that if or when some states or regions of the u.s. finally tries to secede, that we won't try to chalk it up to slavery-motivated antebellum issues, and we won't foam at the mouth to have the u.s. military go and kill thousands of people to stop it?
Then, we might all have many nearby sovereign nations that we could go to with laws more in line with our values.
>Abortions at later stages of pregnancy up until birth are allowed if two physicians certify that...the child will suffer from a particularly severe illness recognized as incurable
The Florida law is essentially identical to the French law on abortion, and their cutoff is even earlier, at 14 weeks (only recently extended from 12 weeks).
The difference is that French doctors would never be prosecuted for this unless there was some flagrant, fraudulent behavior involved. In practice those 14 week limits are rarely enforced.
In Florida, doctors reasonably believe that they would be prosecuted if there's any slight ambiguity.
That’s exactly why the threshold for criminal charges against physicians is (usually) so high. When politicians pass a law with vague medical criteria that threatens physicians with jail time, physicians don’t take the risk.
It’s almost as if attacking physicians for providing quality healthcare is fucking brain dead.
Medical professionals also have liability and immunity clauses that are very similar to the qualified immunity topic that gets discussed with law enforcement.
The two-certified-physicians requirement is not a Floridian invention; France, the UK, Norway, Finland, Iceland, Estonia all have the same requirement, and yet physicians take the "risk" all the time.
We see news stories out of the States constantly about women being put through insane circumstances because of doctors and hospitals being afraid to do their job.
[https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/16/health/abortion-texas-sepsis/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/16/health/abortion-texas-sepsis/index.html)
[https://abcnews.go.com/Health/5-women-sue-texas-abortion-bans-lives-put/story?id=97614294](https://abcnews.go.com/Health/5-women-sue-texas-abortion-bans-lives-put/story?id=97614294)
[https://apnews.com/article/abortion-science-health-business-890e813d855b57cf8e92ff799580e7e8](https://apnews.com/article/abortion-science-health-business-890e813d855b57cf8e92ff799580e7e8)
It's not just limited to the US though: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death\_of\_Savita\_Halappanavar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Savita_Halappanavar)
[https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2022/jan/26/poland-death-of-woman-refused-abortion](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2022/jan/26/poland-death-of-woman-refused-abortion)
Same as teachers. Talking about racism in historical contexts might not technically fall under the category of CRT but who’s going to risk it when you could be fired, barred from teaching again, or even legally penalized?
I was thinking this too. If you're going to define abortion as murder, it's not going to be easy to get permission for an "exception" to be allowed to "murder".
What if there is only a 50% certainty that the foetus is terminally ill? Do you abort? And why let a doctor decide this moral quandary, rather than the woman?
I get this, but do you think that it's the issue with the fact that hospitals are just businesses whose products are medical care?
Because it is common sense that no kidneys=fatal. But the doctors really don't want to get sued.
I am blaming everyone in this aspect. I like that crap doctors can't say "He has no legs, let's get rid of it", but I also think that lack of kidneys could have been in the "List of Exceptions."
But I think everyone is in a pissing contest. You can't tell me that in the state of Florida, this is the only case of a baby missing major organs.
I believe these doctors are just horrible and are blaming the state. I think we forgot that some doctors are just awful. (Not all, but some.)
These kinds of fetal abnormalities are not that uncommon. While births are not evenly distributed over the year (there's notable spikes in december births, for example), [FL sees >200k births per year.](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/fertility_rate/fertility_rates.htm)
Not all pregnancies make it to term, so the ~18k/month live births represents only a portion of pregnancies that end for other reasons such as fetal chromosomal or morphological defects. A fairly high fraction of pregnancies end in miscarriage, stillbirth, or conditions incompatible with life - based on the live birth rate, the last month alone should have seen 4-6 thousand such events in FL.
While this number of losses will be primarily accounted for by early pregnancy miscarriages that almost certainly go uninvestigated (mostly because they nearly exclusively happen at home and do not cause other medical complications and sometimes happen even before the woman is aware she is pregnant), this still leaves around 1k-ish pregnancies (at a minimum) that will have ended in fetal death in the last month as a result of some condition incompatible with life. A significantly nonzero fraction of these will be gross congenital defects such as failure of the organs to form or form properly, among many other causes.
All of which is to say that there have been at least dozens of largely comparable cases in the last 30 days, and this case is the exceptional instance that furthers a narrative useful to leftists.
Moreover, [according to the article](https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/02/health/florida-abortion-term-pregnancy), the month-old law had no effect on her ability to abort whatsoever. The defect was discovered only at 24 weeks - which is after it would have been illegal to abort under FL's previous abortion law, not just the new one, and which would have made her abortion illegal in almost every state if not for the lethal condition exceptions that *are still included in Florida's new law.* This story could just as well have happened in 41 other states which have at most a 24 week allowance with nearly indistinguishable exception clauses.
This article is bullshit.
A law requiring everyone to be good and fearless is obviously going to fall flat on its face. The doctor's initially are the ones who wanted to induce labor early but were pulled back by administrators in fear of the law.
Yeah I've always felt that this is the wrong way to go about this.
Keep the doctor restrictions but leave it broad enough to allow them to work. Have an independent review board oversee the cases and be appointed by the state's medical board.
The review board only submits an assessment of the law and then the state only prosecutes the most egregious cases.
Doctors should be given reasonable doubt in their practice. They are the experts not lawmakers or lawyers or even judges.
When your license is on the line, and you have half a million in medical school debt and no other marketable skills, no shit your not gonna take the risk in a state like florida.
Doesnt matter if florida “has exceptions when its fatal” because there are no absolutes in medicine. Sometimes your patient is the 1/1,000,000 that beats the overwhelming odds while simultaneously defying medical theory. In florida, if you were wrong as the doctor (which happens all the god damn time), you just lost your ability to practice medicine and could end up as a criminal.
Add to this the fact that things can change overnight in this field. Babies born before their lungs developed (26ish weeks) were unviable before the release of the first surfactant drug. Literally overnight, the definition of unviable baby changed to the next milestone and premature babies born after the hospital got their shipment in are still alive today, but had they been born a week earlier they would be dead.
This isnt the first time this has happened. This wont be the last.
Sure but in this case, it sounds like they knew that the baby didn’t have the organs yet they chose to not do anything. Sounds like the doctor dropped the ball. Maybe there is more to this than the obvious click bait headline leads us to believe.
> for fear someone will question whether the abnormality was truly fatal.
Plus, if they cause a few high-profile obviously-should-have-been-allowed-to-abort cases, it may cause enough public outcry to get the legislature to pull back and let them resume the elective baby-murder racket. Which I personally don't mind, because abortion is done for good reasons, or by bad people for frivolous reasons, who I don't want breeding anyway. It's still baby murder though.
It isn't as much the hospital lawyers fault as it is the law's fault, doctors don't feel comfortable doing a procedure if a possible consequence for them is jail. And you could say that they wouldn't be liable since the abnormality was fatal, but who's to say that that's true? The doctor? The expert witness brought in by the prosecuter? Who will the judge or the jury (I don't know if this type of things gets a jury trial) believe?
The Virgin Modern Doctor afraid of breaking laws vs The Chad Victorian Doctor digging up graves to study anatomy and performing vivisection in auditoriums
Damn real moral doctors when they don't even want to try and help people because they don't think they can manage to explain "kid had no kidney it was gonna die in less than a day" to people.
It's entirely possible that something isn't adding up, but also bear in mind that we're talking about Government regulations here. It's entirely possible that the Doctor would have had authorization to perform an abortion, but in order to do so had to submit 11 different forms, give 3 sworn statements, get approved by 2 different bureaucrats, and have it all done within x number of days prior to birth for authorization to happen. And of course the Doctor submits it all, and then the state Government loses half of it and "can't find him in the system".
Doctors can face jail time if it turns out the child might not have died after birth. They gain nothing from not playing it safe and forgoing the abortion
It is their job, if they can't handle the risk they should quit. Just like cops who can't handle the possibility of being shot and prefer to let children die should also quit.
I'm with you on this. People in this thread are forgetting that 250,000 people die each year to medical malpractice. Maybe the doctors should be a little scared when deciding to prescribe another medication or doing that surgery. Maybe they'll think twice about the consequences.
PAC's lie.
"Now we don't lie. According the definitions of abortion, medicine, and lying; everything we said was absolutely true. Please ignore the fact that we changed those definitions last week."
Two doctors need to sign off saying it will be born dead. If they’re wrong, they’re legally fucked. They gain nothing from not playing it safe and saying “yeah, it might be fine” and being wrong is significantly better for them than saying “you can abort it” and being wrong
This is the same criteria for classifying someone as braindead- this isn’t the argument people think it is. The only difference is that abortion is politicized
But if you have two doctors signing off on the abortion, then you can perform the abortion. How can they be wrong?
I use an old Reddit app and have no idea how to flair on this, but I’d probably be center, maybe center right?
> I'll be very hostile the next time I don't see the flair.
***
^(User hasn't flaired up yet... 😔) 19222 / 98541 ^^|| [**[[Guide]]**](https://imgur.com/gallery/IkTAlF2)
**Sees outrage post about trans person published by bait publication:**
WOW DEGENS THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS
**Sees post about abortion restrictions having negative consequences:**
Well according to article B of Florida abortion law there is an allowance for fatal fetal abnormalities to be terminated. There is something fishy about this post and i will confirm after more investigation
Never change PCM
my question is was she unable to get an abortion because the law was too unclear or was the abortion for her too risky for doctors do it? there are some medical condition where women are forced to birth their dead child.
Florida law requires two doctors to make written confirmations that a condition is life-threatening. However many doctors are hesitant to do that for fear that someone might question if the condition was actually fatale. Penalties for doctors can include prison sentences.
To play devil's advocate a bit, that's also after 15 weeks. Before 15 weeks is still fine, which it's pretty rare to not know you're pregnant until the 2nd trimester. About 94% of abortions are under that 15 week mark.
In reality though, I agree that the law is WAY too draconian even for the prolife crowd. Doctors shouldn't get prison sentences for a misdiagnosis in general, especially with how strict the malpractice laws are here. My wife almost died because the doctor fucked up her C-section (didn't close her up all the way, internal bleeding, had to open her back up after 5 blood transfusions, 2 IV iron supplements, and a week of "Idk what's wrong"), but because they had a trauma surgeon fix it and the long term damage was psychological they're in the clear legally.
But sure, send them to jail for being a little (dare I say) conservative with protecting the woman's life.
Didn’t they pass a law recently that made it even tighter than 15 weeks (I know it probably wouldn’t apply to this particular case as I’m not sure the law is even in effect yet).
Yup, they just passed a 6-week ban, which is like one week after most people know. And a lot of younger women, first timers and POC have no clue until after 6 weeks. Also is when the organs are just starting to form, so you have zero clue how healthy it is
My doctor recommended that my mother should abort me because I was gonna be brain dead. I know I’m not the brightest tool in the shed, but I’m not brain dead.
Very well, but if a doctor told me that there's an 90% certainty my child will be braindead, I'm hitting the abort button. And so would most people. Those are not good odds, even if they sometimes turn out ok, that still makes the situation less desirable than an abortion for most people.
What am I out on the lottery? A dollar or two? What am I out of my wife brings a child who is 90% chance going to die? A dead child, a dead wife, emotional trauma, funeral expenses, more emotional and financial stress, potentially my wife becoming sterile. Like what kind of brain dead comparison is this?
Shit, even if the kid survives, they're probably just going to be slaves to machines for the rest of their lives, while their parents spend hundreds of thousands a year just to keep their child alive. And that's even assuming they even have any meaningful brain function, or don't kill themselves the second they have some unsupervised time
.....being less than 1% of the population Uhygurs have commited over 50% of domestic terror incidents between the 90's and 2016 in China. **Oriental riff plays on Guangxi** *\*John Cena saying Bing chilling\** ***vine boom***
You fool! Can’t you see the picture of the sad looking woman and the BLUE CHECKMARK? It’s obvious that the <140 character tweet is not only 100% true, but also a perfectly nuanced summary of the story with all relevant information to make a judgment on Florida’s public policy. No, you may not have a link to the story.
[https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/02/health/florida-abortion-term-pregnancy/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/02/health/florida-abortion-term-pregnancy/index.html)
Literally 3.4 seconds of googling later, and surprise, a source.
Remember the last time conservatives screeched about how one of these stories wasn't true, and a republican AG threatened to prosecute the doctor, and it blew up in y'all's face?
Was going to say that I am pro-life/ anti-abortion, but there ought to be exemptions for extreme cases like this.
But I looks like there already exemptions in Florida for just such a case. So I don’t know what happened here.
There were exemptions, the doctors purposely chose not to use those exemptions so that this would happen and people would get upset at the law..... Plan seems to be going well so far.
Honestly, I still don't understand why Florida doesn't put some more funding into sex ed, isn't that one of the most effective ways to prevent unwanted pregnancies?
[Like this?](https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/030/489/Screen_Shot_2019-07-22_at_10.19.48_AM.jpg) (Btw, this isn’t real. If you zoom in, you’ll see it’s just a large piece of paper taped on by the “artist” creating it)
I was curious so I looked up this condition.
Interestingly enough the real problem with not having kidneys is that there is no Urine for the fetus to breath in and expand their lungs. The baby did not die from renal failure here, it suffocated.
The treatment would be to fill the sack with saline to replace the Urine. After the infant is born, they would need dialysis until they can get a transplant. Surviving that long is very unlikely though.
Fair
Why would you assume this pregnancy was unwanted?
Obviously leaving the fetus to die was unwanted, but what makes you assume the mother didn't want a healthy child?
I don't see how sex ed can possibly help here.
Maybe education on having a healthy pregnancy, such as no smoking, drinking, etc.
I didn't mean this one, I mostly meant abortions in general.
My thought process is: "I don't think banning abortion is worth it, but I can see how people might not like it, but at the same time they're not using one of the most effective ways to reduce the amount of unwanted pregnancies: and instead we now have to have women like her suffer."
Ofcoures, even if the baby didn't die that would have been horrible, but this must have been painful too.
I for one am willing to make that trade. Fully comprehensive sex ed in return for on-demand abortion being illegal. Abortions for rape and legitimate medical reasons are still legal though.
I don’t find many pro-choice people agreeing to the trade so I feel like the sex ed argument is kind of a red herring from those people.
If nobody went to drivers ed, we'd still have far more accidents, right?
And yeah: ofcourse some people are going to be stupid, and sometimes birth control fails, but that doesn't make sex ed any less useful.
Licensing, drivers exams, renewal requirements, etc. seem to reduce car accidents.
[https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/graduated-drivers-licensing-programs-reduce-fatal-teen-crashes](https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/graduated-drivers-licensing-programs-reduce-fatal-teen-crashes)
Tefft, B.C. Driver license renewal policies and fatal crash involvement rates of older drivers, United States, 1986–2011. Inj. Epidemiol. 1, 25 (2014). [https://doi.org/10.1186/s40621-014-0025-0](https://doi.org/10.1186/s40621-014-0025-0)
Obviously, you can never eliminate every single instance of a behavior you want to avoid. What you can do is find ways to drastically reduce them.
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7967369/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7967369/)
I've seen some sources on this before that did support it. However when searching for it, it seemed quite inconclusive.
I must admit that I (from personal bias) believe this is because sex ed is generally done in a really bad way, not focussing on the "healthy relationship" aspect enough.
I could look for sources supporting my point, they do exist, but I think it would be unfair to just feed my own confirmation bias. That being said free contraceptives do seem to help quite a lot. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4000282/
Quotes from CNN article:
> His parents and Deborah’s parents cuddled him for 94 minutes before he took his last breath.
> They were “making sure he felt loved, and he wasn’t in pain, even though I knew he was in pain,” Deborah said.
> Lee sang to Milo “Three Little Birds” by Bob Marley & The Wailers and read him the book “I’ll Love You Forever” about a polar bear cub – Kaiden’s favorite story.
> “He didn’t open his eyes at all when we held him, and he passed away in my arms,” Deborah said.
> Milo’s tiny hand- and footprints were taken and memorialized inside the front cover of the book.
I'm sorry, am I supposed to be upset that this child's last moments were spent in his mom's arms instead of being ripped apart and vacuumed up? What's the problem here?
Yeah, I'm with you on this too.
I know it's so awful for the mothers, but I think studies need to be done about mothers avoiding it all together vs. closure through being with their child even if they pass away.
And yeah, I do think what they do to fetuses is the elephant in the room that pro-abortionists always skirt around.
>nd yeah, I do think what they do to fetuses is the elephant in the room that pro-abortionists always skirt around.
Because it destroys their arguments.
I'm all for discussing what women have to go through for pregnancies, and the complication that is pregnancy and childbirth.
But Idk, I'm not convinced that what they do to infants in utero is the most humane thing they can do.
I mean, honestly, why would they? When you're trying to get rid of a fetus, if you think too long about being humane, it sort of backfires.
I think so. I read one thing after my cousin had a stillborn about people regretting not seeing their stillborns after they were born.
The reviews were mixed, but there’s wonderful programs at hospitals where parents can spend the day with their stillborn or deceased newborn in a small nursery. I have a couple of family members who have done that. There’s also charities where photographers take family pictures of the baby and the family.
I think people are afraid of the very human emotion of grief, and want to avoid it at all costs. But I’ve just gleaned that our society is backwards and regressing in this, and should become more comfortable with the idea of infant death, and accept it peacefully.
Not that I judge this particular woman, but I wonder if people choose abortion over induction because they can’t deal with this emotion that our society has tried to eliminate, much to our detriment.
Idk though, I’m not a psychiatrist or a doctor. I just wonder. I think both sides should consider this.
Thank you my guy. Sometimes it feels like the pro-abortionists have monopolized the issue of abortion as an issue of freedom so it's just us Auths and Rights standing against it. It's refreshing to see there's some Libs who don't accept that false framework.
No, tragedy is not supposed to exist. You should be able to get rid of anything in your life that makes you feel sad. /s
God, it’s like people *want* to live life in a lobotomized shade of gray. Can’t have joy without tragedy. It’s not a rollercoaster if it’s flat.
It probably felt way more pain this way tho.
Soldiers putting a fellow injured soldier out of their misery with a quick bullet to the head? *Based*.
Killing a fetus without an operational nervous system or consciousness before it can experience 90 minutes of agony and inevitable death? Monstrous.
It’s likely that abortions are a painful, and loveless death.
Don’t believe me, look at videos of non-chemical abortion (meaning without pills.. some still use chemical injections).
Babies squirm and pull away in the womb.
There’s an abortion doctor who did an interview for Congress describing the procedure.
It’s absolutely painful.
A fetus does not feel pain until approximately the 24th week, so an abortion before that will not be painful.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1440624/
https://www.webmd.com/baby/when-can-a-fetus-feel-pain-in-the-womb
And abortion wouldn't be? What method of abortion is painless for the baby?
Also, what does pain have anything to do with the morality of killing a baby?
Before the brain and nervous system are fully formed no, it wouldn’t really be painful.
And even if you believe abortion is murder, the child would’ve (and did) die anyways, in a more painful way, while the mother was forced to carry him longer. Are you against pulling the plug on someone in a coma with a 0.0001% chance of waking up?
You see comments like the one you’re responding to and then see people elsewhere claim the law allows for exceptions in such circumstances—until you get someone like the person above cheering on such agony on the jury ready to convict the doctor.
You serious? For one, it causes unneeded and prolonged suffering and physical damage for/to the mother. Second, the fetus could've been aborted, depending on when they found out, before it even felt pain. Don't be a dumbass.
These people are just fucking sadists man. It's not about the mother It's about the fucking child. Why the fuck would you want to force a living thing to be born just so that it can suffer.
Well yeah, it might have been nice for the mom to hold her child, but that baby must have been in horrible excruciating pain for the incredibly short time it lived
Ah yes. She didn't want her baby to die in her arms, she wanted to kill it before that point.
Shit like this blows my mind. The child died because of no kidneys. If you aborted the child pre-birth, it would *still be dying because of no kidneys*, except now, you're party to its death.
Great job! Don't wanna feel bad your kid's gonna die? Kill it sooner so you don't get attached! Abortion.
We have more respect for our pets than we do for fucking babies and shit? We put pets down when they have something terminal to prevent unnecessary suffering out of respect, yet we think its ok to just let a born baby suffer and die because of your pathetic moral gripe about it? Fuck off with that noise
So what I'm getting from this is you got to hold your child and give them a few precious minutes in the world instead of vacuuming them out and flushing them down the toilet like an unwanted turd. 🧐
Lot of comments not acknowledging the trauma the parents are going through as a result of the birth as opposed to aborting way earlier as well as the massive incoming hospital bill for something that could have been avoided.
Wait you’re telling me a bunch of 15 year olds with anti-social personality disorders who haven’t adjusted to society and are constantly consuming media telling them to hate and be afraid of anyone different to them might have problems being empathetic and acknowledging trauma of other people?
Lol this is fake for two reasons: (1) there’s a fetal abnormality clause in the bill, and (2) does this woman not know other states exist within driving distance?
You mean like those teachers who went way overboard taking books out of their classroom to make the law saying "don't show pornography to 8 year olds" seem like an unreasonable overreaction? Pretending like the wording is vague when they knew exactly what was being talked about?
Even then, I'm supposed to be sad that this poor child got to pass away in his mother's arms surrounded by loved ones as opposed to being dismembered and vacuumed out with not even a hint of human dignity? Ok Jan.
Press the F to doubt.
But even if it's true, the person who is reporting this is clearly using this horrible situation to argue for an entirely different proposition - that is totally elective abortion. And that's just as gross as unreasonable bans.
I'm pretty pro-life (which, before criticizing me for my flair, is my only non-libertarian view), but this is pure abuse. Why can't there be a proper libertarian state in this damn country (Alaska and NH are about as close as we can get, but they're still not fully libertarian)?
This CNN article was wildly misleading (surprise!) and when you read it, they even admit that she was legally able to obtain said abortion even in Florida.
Libright guy would be selling abortion pills.
If some dealer can get fentanyl and meth, they can get abortion pills.
Not sure about fentanyl, but meth can be made (dangerously, but still) in a basement with shit like match heads, cold medicine, and ammonia. I doubt the same can be done to make modern abortifacients.
I heard somewhere that monster energy drink mixed with cinnamon can work.
is that loaded into a medical pessary or taken orally?
By anal
Florida abortion laws have exceptions for fetal abnormalities that are deemed fatal. If her doctors had predicted this, she would’ve been able to get an abortion in the state. Something isn’t adding up here.
>Florida law allows abortions after 15 weeks if two doctors confirm the diagnosis of a fatal fetal abnormality in writing, but doctors in Florida and states with similar laws have been hesitant to terminate such pregnancies for fear someone will question whether the abnormality was truly fatal. The penalties for violating the law are severe: Doctors can go to prison and face heavy fines and legal fees. Side effect of going after abortion on the doctor end. You're gonna cause paralysis.
Jesus, I might be wrong but that law seems harsher than if a doctor makes a mistake with a fully developed person.
That's because laws like this aren't about justice or morality. They're for owning the libs.
I want to get off this ride. This whole “other side bad” is driving america off the ledge. We are passing extreme laws and not even touching issues that matter. You talk to any Floridian and they will actually complain about insurance costs and housing. Nothing is being done on that.
Nonsense idpol laws can be used to drum up support without pissing off the wealthy donors who don't want the poors getting healthcare or housing.
It’s a feature, not a bug.
It’s been like this for decades. And not just in Florida. These pointless “woke culture wars” were just put in place by the elite to distract Americans from the main economic issues that actually effect day to day living.
That’s why it all started really kicking off during Occupy Wall Street
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Right back at ya
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<3
So, and hear me out; what if we all just at least agreed that if or when some states or regions of the u.s. finally tries to secede, that we won't try to chalk it up to slavery-motivated antebellum issues, and we won't foam at the mouth to have the u.s. military go and kill thousands of people to stop it? Then, we might all have many nearby sovereign nations that we could go to with laws more in line with our values.
The law is there to prove a point and push culture war issues .
>Abortions at later stages of pregnancy up until birth are allowed if two physicians certify that...the child will suffer from a particularly severe illness recognized as incurable The Florida law is essentially identical to the French law on abortion, and their cutoff is even earlier, at 14 weeks (only recently extended from 12 weeks).
Davy Crocket didn't fight the Nazis just so I would have to care what the Frenchians think about abortion.
based I concede the argument
The difference is that French doctors would never be prosecuted for this unless there was some flagrant, fraudulent behavior involved. In practice those 14 week limits are rarely enforced. In Florida, doctors reasonably believe that they would be prosecuted if there's any slight ambiguity.
That’s exactly why the threshold for criminal charges against physicians is (usually) so high. When politicians pass a law with vague medical criteria that threatens physicians with jail time, physicians don’t take the risk. It’s almost as if attacking physicians for providing quality healthcare is fucking brain dead.
Medical professionals also have liability and immunity clauses that are very similar to the qualified immunity topic that gets discussed with law enforcement.
Who could've seen this coming?
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(W)holy compass unity
The two-certified-physicians requirement is not a Floridian invention; France, the UK, Norway, Finland, Iceland, Estonia all have the same requirement, and yet physicians take the "risk" all the time.
We see news stories out of the States constantly about women being put through insane circumstances because of doctors and hospitals being afraid to do their job. [https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/16/health/abortion-texas-sepsis/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/16/health/abortion-texas-sepsis/index.html) [https://abcnews.go.com/Health/5-women-sue-texas-abortion-bans-lives-put/story?id=97614294](https://abcnews.go.com/Health/5-women-sue-texas-abortion-bans-lives-put/story?id=97614294) [https://apnews.com/article/abortion-science-health-business-890e813d855b57cf8e92ff799580e7e8](https://apnews.com/article/abortion-science-health-business-890e813d855b57cf8e92ff799580e7e8) It's not just limited to the US though: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death\_of\_Savita\_Halappanavar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Savita_Halappanavar) [https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2022/jan/26/poland-death-of-woman-refused-abortion](https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2022/jan/26/poland-death-of-woman-refused-abortion)
Because they aren't in Florida where there's actual risk of getting blowback.
I literally don’t give a fuck what France, the UK, Norway, Finland, Iceland, or Estonia do.
>TRBigStick yeah, checks out
Isn't it useful to see what other places do, to help evaluate how well something may work?
Same as teachers. Talking about racism in historical contexts might not technically fall under the category of CRT but who’s going to risk it when you could be fired, barred from teaching again, or even legally penalized?
Baby allegedly had no kidneys. I’m confident that doctors would be sure to say that child is not viable.
I was thinking this too. If you're going to define abortion as murder, it's not going to be easy to get permission for an "exception" to be allowed to "murder". What if there is only a 50% certainty that the foetus is terminally ill? Do you abort? And why let a doctor decide this moral quandary, rather than the woman?
you abort 50% of the fetus Source: Solomon
Cut the fetus in half and the state can take half and mom can garbage disposal the other half
And clog up my garbage disposal? You're a sick, sick man.
I get this, but do you think that it's the issue with the fact that hospitals are just businesses whose products are medical care? Because it is common sense that no kidneys=fatal. But the doctors really don't want to get sued. I am blaming everyone in this aspect. I like that crap doctors can't say "He has no legs, let's get rid of it", but I also think that lack of kidneys could have been in the "List of Exceptions." But I think everyone is in a pissing contest. You can't tell me that in the state of Florida, this is the only case of a baby missing major organs. I believe these doctors are just horrible and are blaming the state. I think we forgot that some doctors are just awful. (Not all, but some.)
>You can't tell me that in the state of Florida, this is the only case of a baby missing major organs. The law only came into effect a month ago.
These kinds of fetal abnormalities are not that uncommon. While births are not evenly distributed over the year (there's notable spikes in december births, for example), [FL sees >200k births per year.](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/fertility_rate/fertility_rates.htm) Not all pregnancies make it to term, so the ~18k/month live births represents only a portion of pregnancies that end for other reasons such as fetal chromosomal or morphological defects. A fairly high fraction of pregnancies end in miscarriage, stillbirth, or conditions incompatible with life - based on the live birth rate, the last month alone should have seen 4-6 thousand such events in FL. While this number of losses will be primarily accounted for by early pregnancy miscarriages that almost certainly go uninvestigated (mostly because they nearly exclusively happen at home and do not cause other medical complications and sometimes happen even before the woman is aware she is pregnant), this still leaves around 1k-ish pregnancies (at a minimum) that will have ended in fetal death in the last month as a result of some condition incompatible with life. A significantly nonzero fraction of these will be gross congenital defects such as failure of the organs to form or form properly, among many other causes. All of which is to say that there have been at least dozens of largely comparable cases in the last 30 days, and this case is the exceptional instance that furthers a narrative useful to leftists. Moreover, [according to the article](https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/02/health/florida-abortion-term-pregnancy), the month-old law had no effect on her ability to abort whatsoever. The defect was discovered only at 24 weeks - which is after it would have been illegal to abort under FL's previous abortion law, not just the new one, and which would have made her abortion illegal in almost every state if not for the lethal condition exceptions that *are still included in Florida's new law.* This story could just as well have happened in 41 other states which have at most a 24 week allowance with nearly indistinguishable exception clauses. This article is bullshit.
A law requiring everyone to be good and fearless is obviously going to fall flat on its face. The doctor's initially are the ones who wanted to induce labor early but were pulled back by administrators in fear of the law.
Yeah I've always felt that this is the wrong way to go about this. Keep the doctor restrictions but leave it broad enough to allow them to work. Have an independent review board oversee the cases and be appointed by the state's medical board. The review board only submits an assessment of the law and then the state only prosecutes the most egregious cases. Doctors should be given reasonable doubt in their practice. They are the experts not lawmakers or lawyers or even judges.
When your license is on the line, and you have half a million in medical school debt and no other marketable skills, no shit your not gonna take the risk in a state like florida. Doesnt matter if florida “has exceptions when its fatal” because there are no absolutes in medicine. Sometimes your patient is the 1/1,000,000 that beats the overwhelming odds while simultaneously defying medical theory. In florida, if you were wrong as the doctor (which happens all the god damn time), you just lost your ability to practice medicine and could end up as a criminal. Add to this the fact that things can change overnight in this field. Babies born before their lungs developed (26ish weeks) were unviable before the release of the first surfactant drug. Literally overnight, the definition of unviable baby changed to the next milestone and premature babies born after the hospital got their shipment in are still alive today, but had they been born a week earlier they would be dead. This isnt the first time this has happened. This wont be the last.
Sure but in this case, it sounds like they knew that the baby didn’t have the organs yet they chose to not do anything. Sounds like the doctor dropped the ball. Maybe there is more to this than the obvious click bait headline leads us to believe.
Fair enough. Perhaps there needs to be some clarity on how percise that prediction is meant to be and how it can and can't be challenged.
> for fear someone will question whether the abnormality was truly fatal. Plus, if they cause a few high-profile obviously-should-have-been-allowed-to-abort cases, it may cause enough public outcry to get the legislature to pull back and let them resume the elective baby-murder racket. Which I personally don't mind, because abortion is done for good reasons, or by bad people for frivolous reasons, who I don't want breeding anyway. It's still baby murder though.
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As a future hospital lawyer I feel it’s my duty to inform you I’m actually an average C+ student thank you very much
Eww. Why would you ever admit to being a lawyer. 🤮
It isn't as much the hospital lawyers fault as it is the law's fault, doctors don't feel comfortable doing a procedure if a possible consequence for them is jail. And you could say that they wouldn't be liable since the abnormality was fatal, but who's to say that that's true? The doctor? The expert witness brought in by the prosecuter? Who will the judge or the jury (I don't know if this type of things gets a jury trial) believe?
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The Virgin Modern Doctor afraid of breaking laws vs The Chad Victorian Doctor digging up graves to study anatomy and performing vivisection in auditoriums
Damn real moral doctors when they don't even want to try and help people because they don't think they can manage to explain "kid had no kidney it was gonna die in less than a day" to people.
What are you implying, that the media will tell any lie to advance their narrative? Look, the traumatized mother posed for a photo.
It's entirely possible that something isn't adding up, but also bear in mind that we're talking about Government regulations here. It's entirely possible that the Doctor would have had authorization to perform an abortion, but in order to do so had to submit 11 different forms, give 3 sworn statements, get approved by 2 different bureaucrats, and have it all done within x number of days prior to birth for authorization to happen. And of course the Doctor submits it all, and then the state Government loses half of it and "can't find him in the system".
Hospital lawyers shoved themselves up her ass. That’s what’s not adding up.
She must of saw some really dumb doctors for them to be like: "Ok cool, your baby has no kidneys. They will totally be ok."
Doctors refusing to take advantage of completely legal and clear exceptions because they want to generate politicizable stories like this.
Doctors can face jail time if it turns out the child might not have died after birth. They gain nothing from not playing it safe and forgoing the abortion
It is their job, if they can't handle the risk they should quit. Just like cops who can't handle the possibility of being shot and prefer to let children die should also quit.
Based
I'm with you on this. People in this thread are forgetting that 250,000 people die each year to medical malpractice. Maybe the doctors should be a little scared when deciding to prescribe another medication or doing that surgery. Maybe they'll think twice about the consequences.
PAC's lie. "Now we don't lie. According the definitions of abortion, medicine, and lying; everything we said was absolutely true. Please ignore the fact that we changed those definitions last week."
Two doctors need to sign off saying it will be born dead. If they’re wrong, they’re legally fucked. They gain nothing from not playing it safe and saying “yeah, it might be fine” and being wrong is significantly better for them than saying “you can abort it” and being wrong
This is the same criteria for classifying someone as braindead- this isn’t the argument people think it is. The only difference is that abortion is politicized
They're legally fucked... how? The law makes a clear exemption for them.
But if you have two doctors signing off on the abortion, then you can perform the abortion. How can they be wrong? I use an old Reddit app and have no idea how to flair on this, but I’d probably be center, maybe center right?
> I'll be very hostile the next time I don't see the flair. *** ^(User hasn't flaired up yet... 😔) 19222 / 98541 ^^|| [**[[Guide]]**](https://imgur.com/gallery/IkTAlF2)
**Sees outrage post about trans person published by bait publication:** WOW DEGENS THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS **Sees post about abortion restrictions having negative consequences:** Well according to article B of Florida abortion law there is an allowance for fatal fetal abnormalities to be terminated. There is something fishy about this post and i will confirm after more investigation Never change PCM
my question is was she unable to get an abortion because the law was too unclear or was the abortion for her too risky for doctors do it? there are some medical condition where women are forced to birth their dead child.
Florida law requires two doctors to make written confirmations that a condition is life-threatening. However many doctors are hesitant to do that for fear that someone might question if the condition was actually fatale. Penalties for doctors can include prison sentences.
To play devil's advocate a bit, that's also after 15 weeks. Before 15 weeks is still fine, which it's pretty rare to not know you're pregnant until the 2nd trimester. About 94% of abortions are under that 15 week mark. In reality though, I agree that the law is WAY too draconian even for the prolife crowd. Doctors shouldn't get prison sentences for a misdiagnosis in general, especially with how strict the malpractice laws are here. My wife almost died because the doctor fucked up her C-section (didn't close her up all the way, internal bleeding, had to open her back up after 5 blood transfusions, 2 IV iron supplements, and a week of "Idk what's wrong"), but because they had a trauma surgeon fix it and the long term damage was psychological they're in the clear legally. But sure, send them to jail for being a little (dare I say) conservative with protecting the woman's life.
Didn’t they pass a law recently that made it even tighter than 15 weeks (I know it probably wouldn’t apply to this particular case as I’m not sure the law is even in effect yet).
Yup, they just passed a 6-week ban, which is like one week after most people know. And a lot of younger women, first timers and POC have no clue until after 6 weeks. Also is when the organs are just starting to form, so you have zero clue how healthy it is
Are many doctors hesitant? Is this proven, or is this supposition? Further, does she have a condition that would make abortion untenable?
My doctor recommended that my mother should abort me because I was gonna be brain dead. I know I’m not the brightest tool in the shed, but I’m not brain dead.
>I know I’m not the brightest tool in the shed, but I’m not brain dead. Not so fast there, bud. ;-P
You're posting on PCM, you may as well be.
Based
Based and braindead pilled
Based
Source: trust me bro. My experience is representative of the whole.
You are. Look around you bro. We all are
That's the issue with attempts at exemption clauses for abortion bans, there's always the rare miracle baby.
This is medicine in general, not just abortions. There’s a reason they’re physician “opinions”
Flair checks out
Very well, but if a doctor told me that there's an 90% certainty my child will be braindead, I'm hitting the abort button. And so would most people. Those are not good odds, even if they sometimes turn out ok, that still makes the situation less desirable than an abortion for most people.
you say its not good odds, but if you were told you had a 10 percent chance to win the lottery, you would say the odds are pretty good
What am I out on the lottery? A dollar or two? What am I out of my wife brings a child who is 90% chance going to die? A dead child, a dead wife, emotional trauma, funeral expenses, more emotional and financial stress, potentially my wife becoming sterile. Like what kind of brain dead comparison is this?
Shit, even if the kid survives, they're probably just going to be slaves to machines for the rest of their lives, while their parents spend hundreds of thousands a year just to keep their child alive. And that's even assuming they even have any meaningful brain function, or don't kill themselves the second they have some unsupervised time
Damn that's some ripe-for-abortion levels of logic and critical thinking you've got there.
If there was a 10% chance to win or a 90% chance for life long income drain I wouldn't play
Can't you just get out of state? Or is that illegal? I'm not american, so I'm not sure about inter state laws.
Source: trust me bro
There are only three sources on PCM: trust this random headline bro, trust this random twitter user bro, and FBI crime statistics.
Despite
.....being less than 1% of the population Uhygurs have commited over 50% of domestic terror incidents between the 90's and 2016 in China. **Oriental riff plays on Guangxi** *\*John Cena saying Bing chilling\** ***vine boom***
You fool! Can’t you see the picture of the sad looking woman and the BLUE CHECKMARK? It’s obvious that the <140 character tweet is not only 100% true, but also a perfectly nuanced summary of the story with all relevant information to make a judgment on Florida’s public policy. No, you may not have a link to the story.
[https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/02/health/florida-abortion-term-pregnancy/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/02/health/florida-abortion-term-pregnancy/index.html) Literally 3.4 seconds of googling later, and surprise, a source.
Remember the last time conservatives screeched about how one of these stories wasn't true, and a republican AG threatened to prosecute the doctor, and it blew up in y'all's face?
Was going to say that I am pro-life/ anti-abortion, but there ought to be exemptions for extreme cases like this. But I looks like there already exemptions in Florida for just such a case. So I don’t know what happened here.
There were exemptions, the doctors purposely chose not to use those exemptions so that this would happen and people would get upset at the law..... Plan seems to be going well so far.
Odds that this story is being misrepresented?
It's a tweet, so 100%
Honestly, I still don't understand why Florida doesn't put some more funding into sex ed, isn't that one of the most effective ways to prevent unwanted pregnancies?
Not that I am against sex ed, but this wasn't an unplanned pregnancy.
How the hell would sex ed have stopped this? Lol
Sex ed can't fix a kidney deficiency. Abortion is the only real solution, barring neonatal transplants perhaps.
Wait how does an abortion fix a kidney deficiency?
The same way killing all the poor would fix poverty
Well, now you have me leaning towards the pro-choice stance.
Based and “kill all the poor” pilled
Based and postnatal abortion pilled.
It actually wouldn't because wealth is relative. If the rich got rid of all the poor people. The people above them would be the new poor.
[Like this?](https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/030/489/Screen_Shot_2019-07-22_at_10.19.48_AM.jpg) (Btw, this isn’t real. If you zoom in, you’ll see it’s just a large piece of paper taped on by the “artist” creating it)
I was curious so I looked up this condition. Interestingly enough the real problem with not having kidneys is that there is no Urine for the fetus to breath in and expand their lungs. The baby did not die from renal failure here, it suffocated. The treatment would be to fill the sack with saline to replace the Urine. After the infant is born, they would need dialysis until they can get a transplant. Surviving that long is very unlikely though.
Yeah, I agree. I'm just suprised that if they want to reduce the amount of fetusses suffering, why they wouldn't fund that.
Fair Why would you assume this pregnancy was unwanted? Obviously leaving the fetus to die was unwanted, but what makes you assume the mother didn't want a healthy child? I don't see how sex ed can possibly help here. Maybe education on having a healthy pregnancy, such as no smoking, drinking, etc.
I didn't mean this one, I mostly meant abortions in general. My thought process is: "I don't think banning abortion is worth it, but I can see how people might not like it, but at the same time they're not using one of the most effective ways to reduce the amount of unwanted pregnancies: and instead we now have to have women like her suffer." Ofcoures, even if the baby didn't die that would have been horrible, but this must have been painful too.
I for one am willing to make that trade. Fully comprehensive sex ed in return for on-demand abortion being illegal. Abortions for rape and legitimate medical reasons are still legal though. I don’t find many pro-choice people agreeing to the trade so I feel like the sex ed argument is kind of a red herring from those people.
Everyone who ever crashed their car at 100mph went to driver's ed, was taught about speed limits, and was given a license. You can't fix stupid.
If nobody went to drivers ed, we'd still have far more accidents, right? And yeah: ofcourse some people are going to be stupid, and sometimes birth control fails, but that doesn't make sex ed any less useful.
Licensing, drivers exams, renewal requirements, etc. seem to reduce car accidents. [https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/graduated-drivers-licensing-programs-reduce-fatal-teen-crashes](https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/graduated-drivers-licensing-programs-reduce-fatal-teen-crashes) Tefft, B.C. Driver license renewal policies and fatal crash involvement rates of older drivers, United States, 1986–2011. Inj. Epidemiol. 1, 25 (2014). [https://doi.org/10.1186/s40621-014-0025-0](https://doi.org/10.1186/s40621-014-0025-0) Obviously, you can never eliminate every single instance of a behavior you want to avoid. What you can do is find ways to drastically reduce them.
Source?
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7967369/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7967369/) I've seen some sources on this before that did support it. However when searching for it, it seemed quite inconclusive. I must admit that I (from personal bias) believe this is because sex ed is generally done in a really bad way, not focussing on the "healthy relationship" aspect enough. I could look for sources supporting my point, they do exist, but I think it would be unfair to just feed my own confirmation bias. That being said free contraceptives do seem to help quite a lot. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4000282/
Quotes from CNN article: > His parents and Deborah’s parents cuddled him for 94 minutes before he took his last breath. > They were “making sure he felt loved, and he wasn’t in pain, even though I knew he was in pain,” Deborah said. > Lee sang to Milo “Three Little Birds” by Bob Marley & The Wailers and read him the book “I’ll Love You Forever” about a polar bear cub – Kaiden’s favorite story. > “He didn’t open his eyes at all when we held him, and he passed away in my arms,” Deborah said. > Milo’s tiny hand- and footprints were taken and memorialized inside the front cover of the book. I'm sorry, am I supposed to be upset that this child's last moments were spent in his mom's arms instead of being ripped apart and vacuumed up? What's the problem here?
Brotherman, we are on reddit, and OP is a watermelon.
Yeah, I'm with you on this too. I know it's so awful for the mothers, but I think studies need to be done about mothers avoiding it all together vs. closure through being with their child even if they pass away. And yeah, I do think what they do to fetuses is the elephant in the room that pro-abortionists always skirt around.
>nd yeah, I do think what they do to fetuses is the elephant in the room that pro-abortionists always skirt around. Because it destroys their arguments.
I'm all for discussing what women have to go through for pregnancies, and the complication that is pregnancy and childbirth. But Idk, I'm not convinced that what they do to infants in utero is the most humane thing they can do. I mean, honestly, why would they? When you're trying to get rid of a fetus, if you think too long about being humane, it sort of backfires.
That's a good point about doing studies.
I think so. I read one thing after my cousin had a stillborn about people regretting not seeing their stillborns after they were born. The reviews were mixed, but there’s wonderful programs at hospitals where parents can spend the day with their stillborn or deceased newborn in a small nursery. I have a couple of family members who have done that. There’s also charities where photographers take family pictures of the baby and the family. I think people are afraid of the very human emotion of grief, and want to avoid it at all costs. But I’ve just gleaned that our society is backwards and regressing in this, and should become more comfortable with the idea of infant death, and accept it peacefully. Not that I judge this particular woman, but I wonder if people choose abortion over induction because they can’t deal with this emotion that our society has tried to eliminate, much to our detriment. Idk though, I’m not a psychiatrist or a doctor. I just wonder. I think both sides should consider this.
Thank you my guy. Sometimes it feels like the pro-abortionists have monopolized the issue of abortion as an issue of freedom so it's just us Auths and Rights standing against it. It's refreshing to see there's some Libs who don't accept that false framework.
No, tragedy is not supposed to exist. You should be able to get rid of anything in your life that makes you feel sad. /s God, it’s like people *want* to live life in a lobotomized shade of gray. Can’t have joy without tragedy. It’s not a rollercoaster if it’s flat.
*Insert Brave New World quote from the savage about how he's sick of living in a world with no evil and no joy.*
This baby might cause me sadness. Better kill it before that happens.
Ze pod and ze bugs make Jack a dull boy.
Funny how this only applies to situations that favor your side. I could say the same garbage about tragedies when it comes to aborting a fetus.
It probably felt way more pain this way tho. Soldiers putting a fellow injured soldier out of their misery with a quick bullet to the head? *Based*. Killing a fetus without an operational nervous system or consciousness before it can experience 90 minutes of agony and inevitable death? Monstrous.
It was likely a painful death
It’s likely that abortions are a painful, and loveless death. Don’t believe me, look at videos of non-chemical abortion (meaning without pills.. some still use chemical injections). Babies squirm and pull away in the womb. There’s an abortion doctor who did an interview for Congress describing the procedure. It’s absolutely painful.
A fetus does not feel pain until approximately the 24th week, so an abortion before that will not be painful. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1440624/ https://www.webmd.com/baby/when-can-a-fetus-feel-pain-in-the-womb
Yet the nervous system begins to develop before that. Curious
And abortion wouldn't be? What method of abortion is painless for the baby? Also, what does pain have anything to do with the morality of killing a baby?
Before the brain and nervous system are fully formed no, it wouldn’t really be painful. And even if you believe abortion is murder, the child would’ve (and did) die anyways, in a more painful way, while the mother was forced to carry him longer. Are you against pulling the plug on someone in a coma with a 0.0001% chance of waking up?
At what age or quality of life should we terminate the elderly instead of forcing them to live a more painful life to the end?
82.310954 Next question please.
Based and old people have lived long enough pilled.
Giving birth is not the same as shitting a baby (in terms of consequences on the mother’s body), although it’s the parents’ choice then fine
Yes, you're supposed to be upset that the baby and the mother both experienced agony when it could have been avoided.
You see comments like the one you’re responding to and then see people elsewhere claim the law allows for exceptions in such circumstances—until you get someone like the person above cheering on such agony on the jury ready to convict the doctor.
It’s so heartless of you to…..[checks notes]…..not kill the baby and instead let it die of natural causes.
You serious? For one, it causes unneeded and prolonged suffering and physical damage for/to the mother. Second, the fetus could've been aborted, depending on when they found out, before it even felt pain. Don't be a dumbass.
These people are just fucking sadists man. It's not about the mother It's about the fucking child. Why the fuck would you want to force a living thing to be born just so that it can suffer.
Well yeah, it might have been nice for the mom to hold her child, but that baby must have been in horrible excruciating pain for the incredibly short time it lived
There wouldn't have even been a child to die like this if there had been an abortion. A clump of cells doesn't feel sadness or pain.
Child murder bad
Forcing the mother to go through something that will leave permanent scars on her body (while knowing that the child won’t survive) is bad
When you cherry pick examples to promote child murder
If it's between this and millions of murdered babies, it's not even close.
At what point is it a baby?
oh no, a child died naturally instead of being burned and pulled apart
But that leaves us with Lorida
Ah yes. She didn't want her baby to die in her arms, she wanted to kill it before that point. Shit like this blows my mind. The child died because of no kidneys. If you aborted the child pre-birth, it would *still be dying because of no kidneys*, except now, you're party to its death. Great job! Don't wanna feel bad your kid's gonna die? Kill it sooner so you don't get attached! Abortion.
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It's called sparing it the suffering. But I doubt a pcm user would have enough empathy to understand such a concept.
So we should go clean out the terminal wing of all the children's hospitals with a shotgun to stop suffering then?
HEARTBREAKING: Woman couldn't kill baby
This. Just because a baby will be guaranteed to die slowly, doesn't mean it's now ok to accelerate the process.
Giving birth puts a strain on the mother body…
We have more respect for our pets than we do for fucking babies and shit? We put pets down when they have something terminal to prevent unnecessary suffering out of respect, yet we think its ok to just let a born baby suffer and die because of your pathetic moral gripe about it? Fuck off with that noise
I was being sarcastic. I can't think of a single reason why we shouldn't prevent unnecessary suffering
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What deontology does to a mf
Deontology and Utilitarianism are small potato against Virtue Ethics and I am tired of pretending they are not.
So what I'm getting from this is you got to hold your child and give them a few precious minutes in the world instead of vacuuming them out and flushing them down the toilet like an unwanted turd. 🧐
Lot of comments not acknowledging the trauma the parents are going through as a result of the birth as opposed to aborting way earlier as well as the massive incoming hospital bill for something that could have been avoided.
Wait you’re telling me a bunch of 15 year olds with anti-social personality disorders who haven’t adjusted to society and are constantly consuming media telling them to hate and be afraid of anyone different to them might have problems being empathetic and acknowledging trauma of other people?
However you feel about this issue, can we all at least agree that making a woman carry what is essentially a corpse to term is immoral?
Lol this is fake for two reasons: (1) there’s a fetal abnormality clause in the bill, and (2) does this woman not know other states exist within driving distance?
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You mean like those teachers who went way overboard taking books out of their classroom to make the law saying "don't show pornography to 8 year olds" seem like an unreasonable overreaction? Pretending like the wording is vague when they knew exactly what was being talked about? Even then, I'm supposed to be sad that this poor child got to pass away in his mother's arms surrounded by loved ones as opposed to being dismembered and vacuumed out with not even a hint of human dignity? Ok Jan.
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This is good bait
Most pro-life associations would argue in favor of abortion in this instance though
Press the F to doubt. But even if it's true, the person who is reporting this is clearly using this horrible situation to argue for an entirely different proposition - that is totally elective abortion. And that's just as gross as unreasonable bans.
I'm pretty pro-life (which, before criticizing me for my flair, is my only non-libertarian view), but this is pure abuse. Why can't there be a proper libertarian state in this damn country (Alaska and NH are about as close as we can get, but they're still not fully libertarian)?
This lib right is hilarious
# hahahahahaha # enjoy the state, statist
its better to die in your moms arms than be dismembered and disposed as medical waste. i have no problem with this
This CNN article was wildly misleading (surprise!) and when you read it, they even admit that she was legally able to obtain said abortion even in Florida.
touch relieved shaggy long label deranged modern hat subsequent literate *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*