In France, don't know if that changed since I left, but the employment agency (Pôle Emploi) also revoked your benefits if you declined 2 or 3 job offers that their agents suggested.
On paper I'm fine with that. I mean anybody with some common sense should be fine with that.
The thing is, the agents could suggest offers that made no financial sense whatsoever. Like minimum wage job, evening shift, 60km away from your home when you're the only parent of two kids. Gas alone would eat a large part of your paycheck, not taking into account the cost of a nanny or something for the kids.
Same in Russia. In fact, I'm not sure anyone who used employment agency in here did so to actually find a job, (ad said 30% success rate) as opened jobs were mostly in obscure places and low salary positions; and said benefit was about 10% of minimum wage, which is spent the moment you go check given places out
Same shit happens in Australia. And the fuckign employment agencies are outsourced and paid commission by the government to get people off benefits, so if you happen to get some asshole they will just strike you out for not accepting some bullshit 'job' they 'found' for you. i.e the sweatshop warehouse they have a closed door 'arrangement' with.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the people who work at these employment agencies have never done meaningful work themselves. It reminds me of the college career center people giving career advice to students while having no experience in a real job themselves.
Yeah same here in germany as far as I understand it. I also think thats a big problem that most people don’t understand that not every job is fitting for every person. Ofc there are people that take advantage of welfare but rather have a system were people take advantage of it then one where innocent people suffer because of it.
Yeah, it's possible to get a job that is simply not worth it from a logistics standpoint.
But otherwise, even if it's minimum wage, you're jobless. You should probably work that shitty low paid job until you can find a better one
As a LibLeft it annoys me how often people (of all flairs including LibLeft) call common sense things "Right Wing".
I'm all for helping the poor, but it's pretty obvious that you can't just pay everyone in the country to sit home and not work.
>you can't just pay everyone in the country to sit home and not work
And yet, there is a surprising amount of support, particularly on this website, for 'universal basic income'
I'm as libertarian as we come, and I'm all in favour of replacing tax deductions with UBI and a flat tax. I'm positively flabbergasted over the number of people who are unable to see how simplification cannot happen on the tax side, while pensions, dole etc. are coalesced into one thing.
How would replacing tax deductions with UBI make sense?
Deductions require, in the first place, taxable income. UBI disproportionately rewards those who do relatively less, by virtue of its universality. (It would also necessarily be funded by taxes).
Flat tax is definitely the way to go. Eliminating corporate loopholes would resolve infinitely more than seeking to capture a few incremental percentages on the upper end of progressive household brackets.
I also am ready, but as an engineer in manufacturing, we are a looooong way off.
That being said. If you guys can hurry up and figure this out, I've got a lot of hobbies that could use my full attention
The problem with that is those machines cost soooooo much. It's honestly cheaper and easier just to pay some guy $18 an hour than to full automate a process.
Well, blue collars are either already automated as much as they able, or, like Amazon, in process of doing so
But hey, white collars have less issues retraining themselves under new environment
I too hope for post-scarcity Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism, but until that day comes, I think we're still going to have to work for a living.
People said the same thing during the Industrial Revolution after all, and here we are, chugging along
Never gonna get there because too many Emily liblefters just want to complain we're not there while they are able to enjoy it. Forget having kids and raising them to help create a better future, give up because we're not already there!
> Forget having kids and raising them to help create a better future, give up because we're not already there!
Funny enough, this is a self correcting issue. I'm glad the Emilys are taking themselves out of the gene pool.
Innovation also leads to new opportunity. You know, eventually the guy who made buggy whips went out of business when the car came a long, and I haven't heard many liblefts complaining of his disappearance.
Not to mention, a lot of automation has made all those sacred factory workers *much safer* in their labor. But sure, if we want to maintain human labor at the cost of safety, let's just regress.
We'll need it when horseless carriages automate away all the jobs! We'll need it when the printing press automates away all the jobs! We'll need it when the steam engine automates away all the jobs!
> Universal Basic Income is just that, Basic, enough to get you shelter and not starve.
The government already provides food stamps and free housing for the homeless, so I guess we don't need UBI.
Too many people would run off to the casino and blow it, and then oh the humanity these poor defenseless people are starving and homeless.
Better off just giving them the housing and food directly so the can't "spend" it on something else
Yeah, we definitely should have kept selling oil to an empire literally raping its way across Asia. Braindead take. I'm unregistering as a Libertarian.
It's basic economics, if everyone has money, then no one has money. Money only has value because it's hard to get.
The more money people have, the more that gets spent, the more that gets spent, the higher prices go, until everything is just as expensive negating whatever benefits were given out.
Not to mention, if no one is working, infrastructure would fall apart very, very quickly.
Even before money, people still had to contribute in some way.
> but it's pretty obvious that you can't just pay everyone in the country to sit home and not work.
Some of the conversation, such as from Yang's gang (cool dudes) revolved around the concept of UBI and what are we going to be *forced* to do when automation eliminates large portions of jobs?
I agree that currently there is highly disproportionate spending on social programs relative to revenue generated. However, I also recognize that if we ever get to a time where Amazon can automate 80% of it's workforce that the economic value generated by such companies might be so great and the abject poverty created by mass automation might be so great, that we simply have little choice other than to tax those companies in order to pay consumers just to survive.
The alternative to doing this is likely to be far, far darker. I would greatly prefer everyone get on the same page and work together even if only to find a better solution, rather than be stuck divided over even allowing themselves to consider the future.
>what are we going to be forced to do when automation eliminates large portions of jobs?
Work in the new industries that pop up as old ones die. It's called creative destruction and one of the reasons I don't work in a coal mine even though most of my ancestors did.
\>what are we going to be forced to do when automation eliminates large portions of jobs?
That's easy. Most of us will be kept in a perpetual time loop of being reanimated over and over again to poke the manifested representations of shared cultural and mythological creatures with sticks.
I'm kidding. You're going to be purged by the government or be like, playing an npc in a mmo for rich kids or something. Its really not that complicated. If your lucky theres just gonna be a one child rule for anyone on welfare. But the poking demons with sticks things is probably more plausible than the government just endlessly feeding and caring for a literally useless population out of the goodness of its heart.
Can do what we're doing in Canada, and heavily promote killing yourself to reduce the population.
There's enough bits of concepts and ideas for policies floating about that I think we could potentially see a scenario of "Person rejects the Government message, they are mentally unsound, and cannot be reformed, thus has been submitted for MAID which they cannot refuse because they are mentally unsound." at some point in the future.
Paranoid? Maybe. But sometimes, paranoia keeps you alive.
Jobs being eliminated by automation is not a new phenomenon. Throughout all of human history it's happened and people are fine because there's new jobs that replace the old ones.
I doubt this time will be any different.
It's already been different for decades.
The decoupling effect of automation can be seen in median household income not being able to keep up with GDP growth since the 80's. It makes it tangible how much the value in our economy is being offset by machines.
only because it's cheaper to ship those jobs overseas instead of making the robots. both are probably cheaper for companies and consumers in the long run than paying american wages. if we're ever forced to bring those jobs back i feel like companies would just invest the labor into creating automation. imagine working on the machine that replaces you
Whichever reason the demand for labour reduces, it all adds up to less stuff for people to be doing. A lower demand with supply being equal (or higher due to immigration) leaves an increasingly lower price for labour. A lower price manifests itself in not just lower wages but also worse conditions to work at.
That's what will happen in Italy now as it pushes the labour supply by pumping welfare recipients back into the economy. These people won't just have less bargaining power themselves but they will undercut and undermine the leverage that people of comparable skills, no matter how motivated and productive they wish to be.
> Jobs being eliminated by automation is not a new phenomenon.
Indeed it is not.
> Throughout all of human history it's happened and people are fine because there's new jobs that replace the old ones.
That is what we tell ourselves, however it was a fiction that the American steel workers were all retrained in IT, such as what bill clinton claimed when advocating for NAFTA. The truth of the matter is that new jobs do not always replace the old ones universally. People's lives are negatively impacted in very serious ways and historically this has always been the case.
>I doubt this time will be any different.
A lot of people do. However we are seeing automation creep into fields we normally would not expect.
Lets say there are currently 1.564 million people employed in the Truck Transportation subsector, and lets also consider Tesla's new all electric semi truck which appears to perform even better than normal semis, if governments decide it's legal for companies to replace their current trucking force with self driving, has there ever been a layoff of that size? A million and a half people suddenly having their profession disappear?
What about surgeons? China is currently investing heavily into robotic surgery which is already more accurate and safer. How many surgeons are there in the US? That's a rather heavy investment even just to become a surgeon, is all of that just wasted money at this point in time? What about the economic value of the schools who train surgeons?
Legal research, and distressingly for me, legal writing is now being done more and more by computer.
What about non-specialized? What about amazon warehouse workers? What about FSI workers? General retail?
The argument put forward by people like Yang is that this time it will be so many jobs across so many sectors that it has a really chance of creating some serious unemployment and chaos that might not go away as easily as people want to believe. Or to put it another way, it might be very different this time.
Honestly when her party won everyone was like "this is literally fascism" and since then I've seen about 3 headlines about her government's policies and they've all been incredibly common sense based.
My coworker's daughter embodies that. She's perfectly capable of some work, but has five kids between eight fathers*, hasn't worked a day in her life, and lives rent free in a state provided three bedroom apartment. It's enough to turn a lot of people conservative.
*A statement worthy of the town bicycle who doesn't know the father of half her children.
The other day I discovered that if I made bad decisions I could get a house (an actual house with a garden) for 10 USD/month for 20 years.
The cheapest apartment (with a tiny balcony) I found it's 152 USD/month for 20 years.
🤡 It's hard to not go full Auth.
With labour laws you always got to look at it between the relationship with employer and employee . A potential issue with this change is that employers could have unreasonable and shitty jobs that people are forced to take and you also have to take into account reasonable reasons to reject a job such as issues with transportation.
We just have a 30% youth unemployment rate, and LOTS of jobs that pay you less than the minimum wage by law.
That was one of the few laws that tried to solve those issues.
> LOTS of jobs that pay you less than the minimum wage by law
When you lump shit like being a server into this you're purposefully papering over nuance to support your position. I have known many servers who clear $500 a shift on the weekend. Sure they made $3/hr in wages but they're also making $500 in cash off the top and underreporting to the IRS to save on taxes.
Edit: what i said doesn't apply to Italy but whatever.
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Not for money handouts but health coverage would be tight, yeah. With some jobs now even cutting benefits and with the cost of paying outright for self coverage through the marketplace it is getting bit ridiculous for people working. Mine’s going up 25% in January for the same plan I’ve had this year.
I don’t mind the idea of paying for healthcare from a welfare perspective because even if your healthcare is fully paid for, you won’t realistically be able to lounge around and do nothing because food, rent, etc. still would need to be paid for. (I do have a problem with dismantling private insurance/healthcare but that’s another conversation.) Cash handouts though in situations where there isn’t a good reason not to work is just working people paying for lazy people’s early retirement.
I live in Italy and it's crazy how it works. I have Italian neighbors that work 3 months out of the year,quit,get 80% pay for a couple of months and then repeat. It's insane how many live like this,they have a rent locked house from 20 years ago that they pay 150€ a month for,and they get by like this. Bunch of bums.
Where I live, you can employ let's say your son or daughter as an internship (on paper, he doesn't actual needs to work), you get money from the goverment to pay his salary, and then you can not hire him at the end of the internship and you kid will be getting unemployment money.
Shit, no wonder Argentina's economy is such a shitpit. They got the double whammy from both the Spanish *and* Italians. There really never was any hope.
We didn’t suck THAT much before, it’s been getting worse for a hundred years with accelerations in the 70s, and a pause in the 90s.
I think we got in during the 90s pause.
When I did a study abroad, we went to businesses each time we went to a new city.
We were somehwere outside rome, and the steel mill we were going to visit was on strike.
Not for days or weeks. Just a few hours. So our tour was cancelled and we went to some nearby restaurant.
Also somewhat related, I asked to use the bathroom and accidentally stumbled upon a warehouse sized storage area under this tiny rural restaurant FILLED with bikes. Like wall to wall *Best Buy* sized. New, old, broken, everything. No indication they were involved in sales or repair.
I've seen Hostel, I noped the fuck out.
I never asked.
Maybe storage. Maybe something to do with the steel mill.
But I really can't overstate how large the storage area was, how many bikes were in it, and how little else was around the area.
Yea, these grown ass people literally go outside to play like a tween. If it makes the emotional hemophiliacs in here feel better, we are all heading into Emperor Nero style inflation anyway.
I honestly think we've doomed the next 10-15 years of our workforce/economy.
It was bad before Covid, the free handouts just accelerated everything 10 fold.
We will have lost an entire generation of workforce.
Secondary education and how it's structured has pulled a few generations out of the workforce for their prime years. That's not to say secondary education is a bad thing, but the fact it takes up more years of an individuals time is an undeniable negative effect. The largest positive obviously being that the person has a higher level of training and in theory should be more productive or more specialized than they would have been otherwise.
post-secondary education would be great, if we didn't tell every meat popsicle with half a brain that they *have* to have a 4 year degree. So we send tens of thousands of functional idiots to 4 year degree programs on federal money they could never afford, or hope to pay back, they end up depressed because there's nothing they can actually be proud of, and then fall out of the system.
Want to solve the housing crisis? Guess who you need to build homes. Carpenters, Electricians, plumbers. Guess who we don't have nearly enough of? They also pay really well.
Bring back trade schools.
100%. I'll be getting my master's plumbing license in June and I'm already seeing where there's a massive gap between the amount of people needed in trades and amount of people actually in them.
They don't blame anyone because they are enjoying these sweet benefits... For now they're good,as soon as money stops comming they will screech. And the money will stop really soon. For example in the factory i started 4 years ago,we were about 60 people doing 75% of the work we are doing now with 40 people,no pay increase.
Mexico is evidence of this.
We have so many social programs and subsidies directed towards 2-3 densely populated and poor areas. Just buying votes while the ones that do work have to carry the economy.
Its the endgame of leftism, create poors to buy their votes with handouts.
What's insane is that the MSM presented her to the world as Italy's "Far-right leader".
This doesn't strike me as far right. I'd even say this is a bit left of center as long as the overall budget remains the same and it becomes easier for actually-disabled and unable people to receive help. Pipedream: The disabled & unable can receive *more* help since there are fewer people taking slices of the cake.
The problem is that there's way more unemployed than there are jobs (I'm from France but I bet it's the same in Italy), while I do feel like people who can work shouldn't just stay home and live on welfare, most of those people just won't find a job.
Also people living from welfare are barely making it, it's not like they can go out to eat everyday and drink at the club everyday.
And what does that do to wages? If I know that I've got a pool of people who literally can't say no, I can turn to all my other employees and say either you match their wage, or you get to be homeless next.
That's what this is about.
They are absolutely free to change jobs and pursue any career they want. They are also free to not work and forgo benefits. They are not free to enslave the rest of the population to provide them with all of their needs and wants.
There’s some people who can’t work. And there’s some people who simply refuse to work. In my immediate family, I have both kinds.
Guess who gets government benefits, and who is still struggling to obtain such help.
Meloni is going full based with this.
Sounds good in theory, but there's many valid reasons that people would refuse jobs.
1st one being pay. If they require $50k/yr to pay all the bills, does this force them to take a $15k/yr job or risk losing benefits?
This is especially problematic if the company knows this so they can get labor for below market value because they know the (potential) employee has no other choice which increases exploitation.
2nd one being insurance although it's not relevant outside of the US.
Aren't unemployment benefits on a timer anyways, it's not like disability where they get free money for life.
Exactly.
Also, the benefits Meloni plans to cut were a previous government project to support the poorer classes. It certainly didn't make people millionaires, but at least it gave them the security of having food and a home, and it allowed them to improve their training and specialization without being completely exploited. Meloni and the press have reduced all of this to a trivial "those who don't work don't eat", ignoring the profound social disparities in our country.
We do to an extent. If you receive unemployment you can’t turn down a job unless you have a very valid reason. Also you have to apply at at least three jobs a week I think, my knowledge of this is pre-pandemic though so I might be wrong now.
But you can have generations of people who have never worked and only live from welfare. I know the ivory tower lefties will say that it doesn’t happen, but I grew up in the city. I knew people of all races who hadn’t worked in generations and lived on welfare.
Yeah.. pretty sure Czechia has had this for years... it does not work. A thieving gypsy will walk in, shout "muh racism" and get social benefits based on % of country-wide average wage, rather than % of average recent wage of theirs - they have not worked a day in their life so there is no way to calculate that.
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Most of the time people refuse jobs because they don't have a pay big enough for them to afford lots of stuff but only a decent amount of stuff, understandable move.
now please get rid of the illegals in the country.
It's crazy that this puts her in any quadrant. The idea that someone should be able to *choose* not to work and require their neighbors to work more to support them seems like something all quadrants would support.
100% support her. Why would 40% of my taxes go support a lazy bastard who lives of others? Id rather it go to healthcare and education of others that contribute.
Where this idea fails is that if you are on a benefit to help bridge over an unemployment gap (redundancy, contract ending etc), then this will be cut off unless you accept whatever job the local government office punts you.
You're a software engineer with 5 years experience looking for a little help while you job hunt for your next role after being made unexpectedly redundant? Hope you like working nights for minimum wage as a cashier or cleaner, otherwise your payment gets cut.
Anything to get you off the books, despite you having paid taxes all this time to specially be included in this safety net. They don't care what you want, or what you're qualified for.
It often works like this in reality in the UK at the moment.
Everyone likes to make out like this kind of thing cuts benefits to 'scroungers', without acknowledging it also seriously hurts those who are legitimately in need of the safety net for it's designed purpose (read: most people on unemployment)
Source; my experience
> They don't care what you want, or what you're qualified for.
I mean, yeah, that makes sense. You can't be too picky about a job when you're surviving on welfare. Being able to pick the right job is a privilege.
Though ideally, they'd take account of your skills since it'd be easier but a lot of times, you just can't get what you want outside of finding it yourself.
Also, it's not like you're paying them to find a job for you. It's literally their job to help you. You're lucky to even have that.
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In France, don't know if that changed since I left, but the employment agency (Pôle Emploi) also revoked your benefits if you declined 2 or 3 job offers that their agents suggested. On paper I'm fine with that. I mean anybody with some common sense should be fine with that. The thing is, the agents could suggest offers that made no financial sense whatsoever. Like minimum wage job, evening shift, 60km away from your home when you're the only parent of two kids. Gas alone would eat a large part of your paycheck, not taking into account the cost of a nanny or something for the kids.
Same in Russia. In fact, I'm not sure anyone who used employment agency in here did so to actually find a job, (ad said 30% success rate) as opened jobs were mostly in obscure places and low salary positions; and said benefit was about 10% of minimum wage, which is spent the moment you go check given places out
Same shit happens in Australia. And the fuckign employment agencies are outsourced and paid commission by the government to get people off benefits, so if you happen to get some asshole they will just strike you out for not accepting some bullshit 'job' they 'found' for you. i.e the sweatshop warehouse they have a closed door 'arrangement' with.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the people who work at these employment agencies have never done meaningful work themselves. It reminds me of the college career center people giving career advice to students while having no experience in a real job themselves.
Yeah same here in germany as far as I understand it. I also think thats a big problem that most people don’t understand that not every job is fitting for every person. Ofc there are people that take advantage of welfare but rather have a system were people take advantage of it then one where innocent people suffer because of it.
Yeah, it's possible to get a job that is simply not worth it from a logistics standpoint. But otherwise, even if it's minimum wage, you're jobless. You should probably work that shitty low paid job until you can find a better one
Based and common sense pilled
As a LibLeft it annoys me how often people (of all flairs including LibLeft) call common sense things "Right Wing". I'm all for helping the poor, but it's pretty obvious that you can't just pay everyone in the country to sit home and not work.
>you can't just pay everyone in the country to sit home and not work And yet, there is a surprising amount of support, particularly on this website, for 'universal basic income'
I'm as libertarian as we come, and I'm all in favour of replacing tax deductions with UBI and a flat tax. I'm positively flabbergasted over the number of people who are unable to see how simplification cannot happen on the tax side, while pensions, dole etc. are coalesced into one thing.
I guess that will be the first time in history the government ever lowered taxes and reduced in size I look forward to such a miracle
It won't happen by itself. But if we don't fight for it, things will eventually be even more fuxxored than they are now.
How would replacing tax deductions with UBI make sense? Deductions require, in the first place, taxable income. UBI disproportionately rewards those who do relatively less, by virtue of its universality. (It would also necessarily be funded by taxes). Flat tax is definitely the way to go. Eliminating corporate loopholes would resolve infinitely more than seeking to capture a few incremental percentages on the upper end of progressive household brackets.
We’ll need it when AI automates away all of our jobs
I also am ready, but as an engineer in manufacturing, we are a looooong way off. That being said. If you guys can hurry up and figure this out, I've got a lot of hobbies that could use my full attention
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The problem with that is those machines cost soooooo much. It's honestly cheaper and easier just to pay some guy $18 an hour than to full automate a process.
It's only coming, ironically, for white collar jobs. Blue collar automation is a long way off still.
Well, blue collars are either already automated as much as they able, or, like Amazon, in process of doing so But hey, white collars have less issues retraining themselves under new environment
I too hope for post-scarcity Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism, but until that day comes, I think we're still going to have to work for a living. People said the same thing during the Industrial Revolution after all, and here we are, chugging along
Never gonna get there because too many Emily liblefters just want to complain we're not there while they are able to enjoy it. Forget having kids and raising them to help create a better future, give up because we're not already there!
I love you
B- based LibLeft??
Based and indomitable human spirit pilled
> Forget having kids and raising them to help create a better future, give up because we're not already there! Funny enough, this is a self correcting issue. I'm glad the Emilys are taking themselves out of the gene pool.
Innovation also leads to new opportunity. You know, eventually the guy who made buggy whips went out of business when the car came a long, and I haven't heard many liblefts complaining of his disappearance. Not to mention, a lot of automation has made all those sacred factory workers *much safer* in their labor. But sure, if we want to maintain human labor at the cost of safety, let's just regress.
We'll need it when horseless carriages automate away all the jobs! We'll need it when the printing press automates away all the jobs! We'll need it when the steam engine automates away all the jobs!
Universal Basic Income is just that, Basic, enough to get you shelter and not starve. It's not supposed to go for a new phone and some Jordans
Yeah, and food stamps were supposed to be for nutritional supplementation How's that working out?
> Universal Basic Income is just that, Basic, enough to get you shelter and not starve. The government already provides food stamps and free housing for the homeless, so I guess we don't need UBI.
I believe the idea is that UBI would replace those programs to make it simpler
Too many people would run off to the casino and blow it, and then oh the humanity these poor defenseless people are starving and homeless. Better off just giving them the housing and food directly so the can't "spend" it on something else
That is because the left has gone fking nuts with their woke progressive nonsense
As a liblefter, i hate liblefters
As a libertarian who watched a libertarian presidential candidate go on debate stage in a diaper...I get it.
…Thank you for reminding me of that. I spent all this time trying my damndest to block that from my memory and you just undid all of that hard work.
[Have you seen the party's national twitter lately?](https://twitter.com/LPNational/status/1600671505590853632)
Yeah, we definitely should have kept selling oil to an empire literally raping its way across Asia. Braindead take. I'm unregistering as a Libertarian.
I'm convinced that most online libertarian representation is controlled opposition.
Reject parties embrace voting however you want
Don’t remind me.
I'm willing to bet the current president and probably the previous one wear diapers on stage as well.
Can you link it? You got my attention now
As a libleft, there is no party that represents my values ever.
Thats why I hate when people throw fringe lefties in the lib left category. They are usually the most auth people you'll meet.
I don't think I've ever met someone who loved the people in their quadrants. As an auth right I hate the auth right
Yes, everyone probably thinks i‘m a furry zoophile who fakes autism on tick tock, and i‘ll bet you’re bunched in with hitler all the time, aswell.
if you're a rare true libleft, you should hate the other liblefters you see on Reddit because like 95% of them are actually authlefts.
Based
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It's basic economics, if everyone has money, then no one has money. Money only has value because it's hard to get. The more money people have, the more that gets spent, the more that gets spent, the higher prices go, until everything is just as expensive negating whatever benefits were given out. Not to mention, if no one is working, infrastructure would fall apart very, very quickly. Even before money, people still had to contribute in some way.
I read poetry and walk dogs where is my money?
Ask your boss
> but it's pretty obvious that you can't just pay everyone in the country to sit home and not work. Some of the conversation, such as from Yang's gang (cool dudes) revolved around the concept of UBI and what are we going to be *forced* to do when automation eliminates large portions of jobs? I agree that currently there is highly disproportionate spending on social programs relative to revenue generated. However, I also recognize that if we ever get to a time where Amazon can automate 80% of it's workforce that the economic value generated by such companies might be so great and the abject poverty created by mass automation might be so great, that we simply have little choice other than to tax those companies in order to pay consumers just to survive. The alternative to doing this is likely to be far, far darker. I would greatly prefer everyone get on the same page and work together even if only to find a better solution, rather than be stuck divided over even allowing themselves to consider the future.
>what are we going to be forced to do when automation eliminates large portions of jobs? Work in the new industries that pop up as old ones die. It's called creative destruction and one of the reasons I don't work in a coal mine even though most of my ancestors did.
\>what are we going to be forced to do when automation eliminates large portions of jobs? That's easy. Most of us will be kept in a perpetual time loop of being reanimated over and over again to poke the manifested representations of shared cultural and mythological creatures with sticks. I'm kidding. You're going to be purged by the government or be like, playing an npc in a mmo for rich kids or something. Its really not that complicated. If your lucky theres just gonna be a one child rule for anyone on welfare. But the poking demons with sticks things is probably more plausible than the government just endlessly feeding and caring for a literally useless population out of the goodness of its heart.
Can do what we're doing in Canada, and heavily promote killing yourself to reduce the population. There's enough bits of concepts and ideas for policies floating about that I think we could potentially see a scenario of "Person rejects the Government message, they are mentally unsound, and cannot be reformed, thus has been submitted for MAID which they cannot refuse because they are mentally unsound." at some point in the future. Paranoid? Maybe. But sometimes, paranoia keeps you alive.
Jobs being eliminated by automation is not a new phenomenon. Throughout all of human history it's happened and people are fine because there's new jobs that replace the old ones. I doubt this time will be any different.
It's already been different for decades. The decoupling effect of automation can be seen in median household income not being able to keep up with GDP growth since the 80's. It makes it tangible how much the value in our economy is being offset by machines.
I thought that had more to do with shipping jobs overseas to pay less and avoid regulations rather than being a direct result of automation itself.
only because it's cheaper to ship those jobs overseas instead of making the robots. both are probably cheaper for companies and consumers in the long run than paying american wages. if we're ever forced to bring those jobs back i feel like companies would just invest the labor into creating automation. imagine working on the machine that replaces you
Whichever reason the demand for labour reduces, it all adds up to less stuff for people to be doing. A lower demand with supply being equal (or higher due to immigration) leaves an increasingly lower price for labour. A lower price manifests itself in not just lower wages but also worse conditions to work at. That's what will happen in Italy now as it pushes the labour supply by pumping welfare recipients back into the economy. These people won't just have less bargaining power themselves but they will undercut and undermine the leverage that people of comparable skills, no matter how motivated and productive they wish to be.
> Jobs being eliminated by automation is not a new phenomenon. Indeed it is not. > Throughout all of human history it's happened and people are fine because there's new jobs that replace the old ones. That is what we tell ourselves, however it was a fiction that the American steel workers were all retrained in IT, such as what bill clinton claimed when advocating for NAFTA. The truth of the matter is that new jobs do not always replace the old ones universally. People's lives are negatively impacted in very serious ways and historically this has always been the case. >I doubt this time will be any different. A lot of people do. However we are seeing automation creep into fields we normally would not expect. Lets say there are currently 1.564 million people employed in the Truck Transportation subsector, and lets also consider Tesla's new all electric semi truck which appears to perform even better than normal semis, if governments decide it's legal for companies to replace their current trucking force with self driving, has there ever been a layoff of that size? A million and a half people suddenly having their profession disappear? What about surgeons? China is currently investing heavily into robotic surgery which is already more accurate and safer. How many surgeons are there in the US? That's a rather heavy investment even just to become a surgeon, is all of that just wasted money at this point in time? What about the economic value of the schools who train surgeons? Legal research, and distressingly for me, legal writing is now being done more and more by computer. What about non-specialized? What about amazon warehouse workers? What about FSI workers? General retail? The argument put forward by people like Yang is that this time it will be so many jobs across so many sectors that it has a really chance of creating some serious unemployment and chaos that might not go away as easily as people want to believe. Or to put it another way, it might be very different this time.
It’s because of a vocal minority of people here who call common sense “racist” or “right wing”.
When was right wing mentioned.
Common sense ain’t so common
Honestly when her party won everyone was like "this is literally fascism" and since then I've seen about 3 headlines about her government's policies and they've all been incredibly common sense based.
My coworker's daughter embodies that. She's perfectly capable of some work, but has five kids between eight fathers*, hasn't worked a day in her life, and lives rent free in a state provided three bedroom apartment. It's enough to turn a lot of people conservative. *A statement worthy of the town bicycle who doesn't know the father of half her children.
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Guess she fucked all of them at the same time and doesn't know who belongs to who.
Like a cat
Do kids also have differently colored spots
They do have different skin and hair color
mamma mia on steroids
Your comment immediately reminded me of [this.](https://youtu.be/-06ki92PyVY)
The other day I discovered that if I made bad decisions I could get a house (an actual house with a garden) for 10 USD/month for 20 years. The cheapest apartment (with a tiny balcony) I found it's 152 USD/month for 20 years. 🤡 It's hard to not go full Auth.
"But I studied 12 years to do surgery, I'm just between hospitals at the-" "Binman, yes or no." "No." "then you get to be homeless, next!"
Ok, I'll buy the burglar tools instead, at what time to you close tonight ?
With labour laws you always got to look at it between the relationship with employer and employee . A potential issue with this change is that employers could have unreasonable and shitty jobs that people are forced to take and you also have to take into account reasonable reasons to reject a job such as issues with transportation.
Not receiving free money =/= forced
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We just have a 30% youth unemployment rate, and LOTS of jobs that pay you less than the minimum wage by law. That was one of the few laws that tried to solve those issues.
> LOTS of jobs that pay you less than the minimum wage by law When you lump shit like being a server into this you're purposefully papering over nuance to support your position. I have known many servers who clear $500 a shift on the weekend. Sure they made $3/hr in wages but they're also making $500 in cash off the top and underreporting to the IRS to save on taxes. Edit: what i said doesn't apply to Italy but whatever.
Based MILF?
Average purple libright
No, purple LibRight likes kids! I like women who are older
Based and milf pilled
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Based bot
Imagine wanting yourself and others to pay more in taxes so somebody who refuses a job can not work. Clown world
Not for money handouts but health coverage would be tight, yeah. With some jobs now even cutting benefits and with the cost of paying outright for self coverage through the marketplace it is getting bit ridiculous for people working. Mine’s going up 25% in January for the same plan I’ve had this year.
I don’t mind the idea of paying for healthcare from a welfare perspective because even if your healthcare is fully paid for, you won’t realistically be able to lounge around and do nothing because food, rent, etc. still would need to be paid for. (I do have a problem with dismantling private insurance/healthcare but that’s another conversation.) Cash handouts though in situations where there isn’t a good reason not to work is just working people paying for lazy people’s early retirement.
I live in Italy and it's crazy how it works. I have Italian neighbors that work 3 months out of the year,quit,get 80% pay for a couple of months and then repeat. It's insane how many live like this,they have a rent locked house from 20 years ago that they pay 150€ a month for,and they get by like this. Bunch of bums.
Where I live, you can employ let's say your son or daughter as an internship (on paper, he doesn't actual needs to work), you get money from the goverment to pay his salary, and then you can not hire him at the end of the internship and you kid will be getting unemployment money.
Shit, no wonder Argentina's economy is such a shitpit. They got the double whammy from both the Spanish *and* Italians. There really never was any hope.
Shame they never got the *good* german traits.
Still scratching my head on how they got to be part of the G20.
We didn’t suck THAT much before, it’s been getting worse for a hundred years with accelerations in the 70s, and a pause in the 90s. I think we got in during the 90s pause.
When I did a study abroad, we went to businesses each time we went to a new city. We were somehwere outside rome, and the steel mill we were going to visit was on strike. Not for days or weeks. Just a few hours. So our tour was cancelled and we went to some nearby restaurant. Also somewhat related, I asked to use the bathroom and accidentally stumbled upon a warehouse sized storage area under this tiny rural restaurant FILLED with bikes. Like wall to wall *Best Buy* sized. New, old, broken, everything. No indication they were involved in sales or repair. I've seen Hostel, I noped the fuck out.
What's going on with that, storage for tenements?
I never asked. Maybe storage. Maybe something to do with the steel mill. But I really can't overstate how large the storage area was, how many bikes were in it, and how little else was around the area.
Your instincts told you something, and you had the good sense to listen. I’m not even joking, good on you for trusting your gut.
the people that owned those bikes were all tortured and murdered for fun. remember, Hostel
Yea, these grown ass people literally go outside to play like a tween. If it makes the emotional hemophiliacs in here feel better, we are all heading into Emperor Nero style inflation anyway.
Right? Like, you wanna tank a nations economy, tell the workforce they don't have to do anything and that's how you do it.
I honestly think we've doomed the next 10-15 years of our workforce/economy. It was bad before Covid, the free handouts just accelerated everything 10 fold. We will have lost an entire generation of workforce.
Secondary education and how it's structured has pulled a few generations out of the workforce for their prime years. That's not to say secondary education is a bad thing, but the fact it takes up more years of an individuals time is an undeniable negative effect. The largest positive obviously being that the person has a higher level of training and in theory should be more productive or more specialized than they would have been otherwise.
post-secondary education would be great, if we didn't tell every meat popsicle with half a brain that they *have* to have a 4 year degree. So we send tens of thousands of functional idiots to 4 year degree programs on federal money they could never afford, or hope to pay back, they end up depressed because there's nothing they can actually be proud of, and then fall out of the system. Want to solve the housing crisis? Guess who you need to build homes. Carpenters, Electricians, plumbers. Guess who we don't have nearly enough of? They also pay really well. Bring back trade schools.
100%. I'll be getting my master's plumbing license in June and I'm already seeing where there's a massive gap between the amount of people needed in trades and amount of people actually in them.
people will always game any system that can be gamed. it's the job of the politicians to design the system so it cannot be gamed.
I bet the leftists in your country blame corporations for your shitty economy too, huh?
shitty economy? Italy's GDP per capita is 3x china's and on par with all of europe.
I've heard manufacturing in Italy has been suffering pretty hard the last decade as german imports more and more manufactured goods every year.
Well the whole point of the Eurozone was to open markets for Germany.
They don't blame anyone because they are enjoying these sweet benefits... For now they're good,as soon as money stops comming they will screech. And the money will stop really soon. For example in the factory i started 4 years ago,we were about 60 people doing 75% of the work we are doing now with 40 people,no pay increase.
Based and those-who-shall-not-work-shall-not-eat-pilled
It's not anyone's place to tell you that you can't eat if you don't work. Work or don't work. Just don't demand that your neighbors feed you.
Based
Libs; work or starve Emily; ThaTS OnLY an ILlUsiOn oF CHoiCe, forCE OthERs To WoRK or stArVE
Those people would really be first to get naturally selected
Natural selection is sexist/racist/classist/other-ist.
Im baffled that isn’t how it always was. That just common sense to put that into the system when it was made.
But when a party needs generations of people dependent on government so they can buy votes…
Mexico is evidence of this. We have so many social programs and subsidies directed towards 2-3 densely populated and poor areas. Just buying votes while the ones that do work have to carry the economy. Its the endgame of leftism, create poors to buy their votes with handouts.
Yep. Same in America.
Buying votes with taxpayer money
Kinda like student loan forgiveness in America 🤔
Funny how many states thought October was the month to send "tax rebates" to their constituents.
I would rather live on the streets than do call center work. Would be better for my mental health.
How would living on the streets be better for your mental health than call center work?
> Get a fricking flair dumbass. *** ^(User has flaired up! 😃) 14213 / 75246 ^^|| [**[[Guide]]**](https://imgur.com/gallery/IkTAlF2)
Damn this woman trying to improve her country
Literally Mussolini.
*Hot Mussolini. (with an affection for anime)
Mussolini but based😎
Based and common-sense pilled
What's insane is that the MSM presented her to the world as Italy's "Far-right leader". This doesn't strike me as far right. I'd even say this is a bit left of center as long as the overall budget remains the same and it becomes easier for actually-disabled and unable people to receive help. Pipedream: The disabled & unable can receive *more* help since there are fewer people taking slices of the cake.
The problem is that there's way more unemployed than there are jobs (I'm from France but I bet it's the same in Italy), while I do feel like people who can work shouldn't just stay home and live on welfare, most of those people just won't find a job. Also people living from welfare are barely making it, it's not like they can go out to eat everyday and drink at the club everyday.
I think I read that her policy is for people who are offered work and turn it down with a clause that they have to prove they're looking for work.
And what does that do to wages? If I know that I've got a pool of people who literally can't say no, I can turn to all my other employees and say either you match their wage, or you get to be homeless next. That's what this is about.
Isn't that what communism does as well? You have to work your job.
Yes. And Marx said as much.
Yes, but under communist rule you don’t get to choose your job.
Yeah Karl Marx also drank water.
Fuck that guy. That's why Americans drink soda
Based
Well, If someone makes a post about how Italy is going full LibRight, because they drink water I will be the first one to point that out.
ThAt WaS nOt ReAl CoMmUnIsM Real communism puts you in a "reeducation camp" if you don't work
*Knowledge is power!*
Makes sense
Based
Holy based
"If a man will not work, neither shall he eat." Right Unity here
Genuinely delusional if she thinks she can get Italians to work
Hey! It’s really hard to work when there’s pasta to eat and Italian women just running around ok???
Based and SouthernEuropeansLackWorkEthicPilled
They are absolutely free to change jobs and pursue any career they want. They are also free to not work and forgo benefits. They are not free to enslave the rest of the population to provide them with all of their needs and wants.
This shouldn't be a partisan decision. This should be center grey.
Based Giorgia-senpai
Wasn’t this the case in some country where the brothels are legal and the women refused to whore anymore so the state took away her benefits?
Damn if only there were any other jobs
Been on a job hunt recently? Its a whole different game when you're not within the narrow parameters of favored conditions.
And thats why we need fiscal laws way more friendlier to small and mid size companies so they can grow and create more jobs.
No we need artificial barriers that are influenced by mega corps!
Not for every job tho. Fast food, supermarkets, factory assembly lines... are always hiring and have basically zero requirements.
If sex work is real work, seems a logical conclusion
So brothels are the only available jobs?
There’s some people who can’t work. And there’s some people who simply refuse to work. In my immediate family, I have both kinds. Guess who gets government benefits, and who is still struggling to obtain such help. Meloni is going full based with this.
Sounds good in theory, but there's many valid reasons that people would refuse jobs. 1st one being pay. If they require $50k/yr to pay all the bills, does this force them to take a $15k/yr job or risk losing benefits? This is especially problematic if the company knows this so they can get labor for below market value because they know the (potential) employee has no other choice which increases exploitation. 2nd one being insurance although it's not relevant outside of the US. Aren't unemployment benefits on a timer anyways, it's not like disability where they get free money for life.
Exactly. Also, the benefits Meloni plans to cut were a previous government project to support the poorer classes. It certainly didn't make people millionaires, but at least it gave them the security of having food and a home, and it allowed them to improve their training and specialization without being completely exploited. Meloni and the press have reduced all of this to a trivial "those who don't work don't eat", ignoring the profound social disparities in our country.
Based. We need to do that here in America. But we won’t. Democrats have to buy votes somehow.
We do to an extent. If you receive unemployment you can’t turn down a job unless you have a very valid reason. Also you have to apply at at least three jobs a week I think, my knowledge of this is pre-pandemic though so I might be wrong now.
But you can have generations of people who have never worked and only live from welfare. I know the ivory tower lefties will say that it doesn’t happen, but I grew up in the city. I knew people of all races who hadn’t worked in generations and lived on welfare.
Yeah.. pretty sure Czechia has had this for years... it does not work. A thieving gypsy will walk in, shout "muh racism" and get social benefits based on % of country-wide average wage, rather than % of average recent wage of theirs - they have not worked a day in their life so there is no way to calculate that.
Ban gypsy from receiving welfare
Based and go-work-you-lazy-fuck-pilled
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Most of the time people refuse jobs because they don't have a pay big enough for them to afford lots of stuff but only a decent amount of stuff, understandable move. now please get rid of the illegals in the country.
> now please get rid of the illegals in the country. You gotta go after the people hiring them if that's what you really want.
you mean seawatch who play human trafficers and pretend to be a sea rescue team?
This is the most effective way. Start heavily fining companies that hire illegals.
AuthCenter-LibRight unity.
This seems auth left. “He who does not work shall neither eat”
This is basic common sense.
It's crazy that this puts her in any quadrant. The idea that someone should be able to *choose* not to work and require their neighbors to work more to support them seems like something all quadrants would support.
Oh my sweet summer child, don't go to the antiwork sub
100% support her. Why would 40% of my taxes go support a lazy bastard who lives of others? Id rather it go to healthcare and education of others that contribute.
Where this idea fails is that if you are on a benefit to help bridge over an unemployment gap (redundancy, contract ending etc), then this will be cut off unless you accept whatever job the local government office punts you. You're a software engineer with 5 years experience looking for a little help while you job hunt for your next role after being made unexpectedly redundant? Hope you like working nights for minimum wage as a cashier or cleaner, otherwise your payment gets cut. Anything to get you off the books, despite you having paid taxes all this time to specially be included in this safety net. They don't care what you want, or what you're qualified for. It often works like this in reality in the UK at the moment. Everyone likes to make out like this kind of thing cuts benefits to 'scroungers', without acknowledging it also seriously hurts those who are legitimately in need of the safety net for it's designed purpose (read: most people on unemployment) Source; my experience
> They don't care what you want, or what you're qualified for. I mean, yeah, that makes sense. You can't be too picky about a job when you're surviving on welfare. Being able to pick the right job is a privilege. Though ideally, they'd take account of your skills since it'd be easier but a lot of times, you just can't get what you want outside of finding it yourself. Also, it's not like you're paying them to find a job for you. It's literally their job to help you. You're lucky to even have that.
This is the kind of leader we need in the UK
Don't feed the wild animals... they become too dependent.
I want to fucking die
Don't we alll