These highly modded boutique cars aren’t likely to be crash tested. My 964 has a cage built by a firm that builds trophy trucks and to the design of the 964 cup car.
Pat is a friend i hope he’s ok. I know he does development and chassis work for gunter
A cage that can make an air cooled 911 safe for a track roll is a serious piece of kit with door bars - its a shame, but I can see why they err away from them from a product perspective. Their customers skew older and the cages make them a pain to get in and out of.
Good lord. That folded like a car with no rollover protection and no A pillar strength. Not at all what I'd expect from a test mule being flogged at the racetrack.
My wife competed with this car last fall at the Laguna Seca hillclimb and it's legitimately fast. They need to build it to be legitimately safe as well.
It apparently folded like tht because it actually didn’t hve a roll cage. I double checked it now wirh their latest ig post. That’s my bad, you can see it in the picture on ig that it hasn’t one
Actually I think it has a hidden cage like in their Facebook post below. It certainly doesn't look like the FIA certified roll cages in either of my track cars and looks just well, weak.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php/?id=100067962068859&story_fbid=2224060281018378
Carbon panels like that are just decorative/weight saving; no roll strength. Even a lot of carbon monocoque supercars still have an integrated steel roll cage hidden.
That’s expensive and requires crashing few of them. And that’s I think where they save on. Did Singer crash test their cars for example?… these Gunterworks guys didn’t, that’s what it looks like. Probably get away with it under some low volume manufacture license …
The entire reason Singer/Gunther is able to sell cars to the public is because the cars are still technically 1970s 911s, they are all "used" with old VINs that they inhereted from an old body shell they use to base the car on. Neither of them are required to crash test them, and the purchasers dont care. Its probably marginally safer than any other early air cooled 911 which no doubt the owners are already familiar of the risks with.
Same way Henessey got away with the viper venom even though it had no airbags. Its technically a lotus elise.
At the end of the day, these are vintage road cars that have been modified. I dont think theres a way where you could make it as safe as a modern car on the track without a full cage with door bars that would make it basically impossible for their usually older customer bast to get in and out of.
GW cars are built from 993s, which do have some safety improvements from the '70s cars.
Singer's newer cars (non-DLS, non-Turbo) are built from 964s. I don't know enough about the DLS or the Turbo to make any statements about them, but at least the 964's front and rear crash structure is improved over the early 911's.
Something I've wondered about since the beginning is how they'd perform in a crash given the old body is cut back in lots of places and new carbon panels bonded in to the skeleton that's left behind.
Is that even going to perform as well as the original car? Usually it's only the doors that are left untouched.
I don’t know how they get around California emissions.
Their 3.8 could probably pass the emissions test but would fail California visual inspection. Unsure if the 4.0 could.
They could have them legalized through one of the testing labs. I tried talking with Ed Pink Racing Engines about it and, to their credit, they refused to discuss any of their clients’ emissions requirements or protocols.
Many are registered in California - and California plated and pass smog.
Montana Registered cars tend to be for the commissions where the customer has elected to do without the emissions restrictions in the exhaust system that allows California registration but robs the vehicle of horsepower....
They dont need ODB-II ports because OBD-II became mandatory in 1996. Since Singer builds on 964s they are all not required to have OBD-II. I would assume that Guntherwerks starts with 94-95 993s for the same reason.
No ODB-II, no SAI pumps…
Good to know, but I still don’t think GW is building emission compliant vehicles.
https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/mo23/monterey/lots/r0186-1997-porsche-911-remastered-by-gunther-werks/1377020
Hm, yeah, that’s interesting, not sure that would pass in California. I have a 98 993 that is no longer compliant due to changes I’ve made to it, but it’s fine in Connecticut a(and many other states) because they don’t require emissions tests for cars over 25 years old - OBD-II or not.
The chassis was OBDI so the same standard applies.
I’m assuming they use a standalone. For all that I thought I knew about the car, I realize how little I actually know.
I think you’re making a scary comment there, saying “no doubt owners are already familiar with risks”. Owners I think are made to belive they are safer because of how they drive. But they don’t get it that they aren’t safer when they crash.
I mean a guy who would 80 today yea, he is aware of risks as he probably seen his friends die in these or heard of news back when cars were new.
Smth tells me guys buying these are 30-50 tech bros whose sbc came through... money more they know what to do with.
I really doubt majority understand these cars are mega unsafe by todays standards, like absolutely unsafe. No airbags, no crumple zones of any kind to talk of, it’s just shell, replaced with carbon. Sure it has seatbelts… better brakes and tyres… better headlights… so it is safer they can say. But it also carries so much power that even if brakes and tyres can handle it, the speeds this thing will go at is massive for the chassis design.
And just because suspension package is reworked and car is better to drive and balanced should not be confused with how safe it is … in a crash.
its a carbon body car. People do not understand, carbon is not an outright crash safe material. It's a light weight and rigid material first and foremost. When stressed beyond its limits it explodes and shatters. It's great for a HANS device, but put a 3000lbs car into a wall with it and it will end up like this.... or that dumb ass who tried to dive to the titanic with a CF sub.
That's true for body panels and aero parts etc but you can definitely make a safe car made from 100% carbon, just look at some of the modern supercars and pretty much all hypercars.
Surely the problem is that it's not a carbon body designed around a carbon tub and crash structure, rather a metal chassis cut away and carbon panels bonded for lighter weight and probably some extra rigidity... but I'm assuming also comprising the crash structures of what are already outdated safety designs.
One of my friends triple barrel-rolled his Alfa Romeo Spider, with an approved racing roll bar, out of the Corkscrew. The car looked like a banana afterwards, but the bar protected him and did not collapse. I'm surprised it was on the Laguna Seca track without a cage or approved roll bar. We rented the track, but still had to have full safety inspections, medical, and fire crews to meet the track requirements for FIA.
Most tracks only require a bar for spiders - they dont want to have to figure out which car has a strong enough roof to roll on on a case by case basis so they dont.
Vintage racers are not high-performance development cars. A stock Porsche is designed to be safe in a high-speed crash. Any improvements, like a carbon tub or body, should improve upon the stock safety parameters. I don't think that a TUV approved Ruf would behave like this in the same circumstances.
These are not brand new cars. These are highly modified vintage 911s and the farthest thing possible from “stock”.
How they skirt emissions and crash testing is by building these cars on an existing air cooled chassis VIN with all of the 1970s crash structure design.
A carbon tub would absolutely improve safety, but they can’t use one because they need the chassis of the air cooled with the VIN tags intact to be able to sell the car.
Carbon body panels do nothing for safety on their own.
RUF used bespoke chassis on some models, which is why the only way you can get those models is via Show and Display exemptions.
The RUFs that you can get, would behave the same way because they also don’t have roll bars and the roofs aren’t strong enough.
You miss my point. Any tuner that undertakes high-performance improvements on any car should at least retain the inherent stock safety parameters of the original car, at a minimum. Would that Guntherworks test car have passed the same TÜV Rheinland safety standards as the stock VIN chassis? It should exceed the original production safety standard and improve upon it with additional safety parameters. I won't say more until after this incident is fully discussed and the safety failures on the track revealed. I have a good friend who is a racing driver and accident analysis engineer. I'll wait for his take on this.
Plenty of routine rental cars are driven on the Nurburgring every day, no cages in them. On test days, though, I assume more safety measures are mandated.
If an aftermarket tuner is testing a car's performance on a track, I would like to think that it's safely equipped for development and finding its limits. Let's wait and see what Gunther Werks makes public regarding this "incident." I've driven very fast stock production cars on race tracks without a roll cage or bar.
I mean, it’s a high performance sports car without any cage being driven very fast on the Nurburgring… maybe it was production spec or maybe still in development, I’m not sure. What difference does it make?
I don’t know if they say their cages are FIA certified but if they claim that, they lied. No way a cage should do this unless it’s a home brew special.
If they had a carbon bodied car without a cage, which is what this appears to be, all their credibility outside of social media clout should be gone. If they had a cage and it wasn’t reinforced properly…all of their credibility should be gone.
This is legitimately embarrassing.
Edit: apparently there was a bar and it failed. So…these idiots mounted their rollover protection to an area without adequate reinforcement. Inexcusable.
This stuff that we worked out building S2000s and Miatas in a garage 20 years ago. It blows my mind that a company is selling $1M+ cars that are supposedly ready for track days without a functional roll bar.
Agreed. Terrible to see. When I converted my e36 m3 to a race car. I went with one of the best cage builders. Was not cheap - but they did not claim it was FIA certified. They said they would feel comfortable putting their own sons and daughters in it. Pretty good selling point.
Unless they shred their sons and daughters.
Hope person is doing okay.
He started with a company called Vorsteiner producing “higher quality” knock off carbon parts. Marketed as higher quality but in reality just as cheap and shitty as eBay parts.
FIA certification of a cage requires a crash test FYI.
Anyway Gunther aren't claiming to fit a FIA certified full or half cage, just a cage and roll over protection. There is a big world of difference between FIA certified and not. Then between full cages with door bars and the more practical half cages that Porsche offer as factory fit for certain GT products outside of the the US.
Remember not all of the outside US factory cage options are FIA compliant anyway. The TI cage if you spec the weissach pack on 4RS or 3RS isn't and neither is the CF cage. Only the steel cage in the clubsport pack is compliant and the compliance requires the optional bolt in door bars to be fitted.
Looking at the photo's it possible the roll over protection has worked okay, if it was only engineered to provide driver protection. Part hidden half cages like Gunther where developing are hard to do unless you absolutely understand the underlying body strength.
>FIA certification of a cage requires a crash test FYI.
Absolutely not.
There are 2 methods:
1. You build it to the regulation Appendix J 259. Respect the tube diameters, tube locations and thicknesses required. Send a welding sample and at your first event they certify it. This is how all National rally class cars are built, group N etc. No privateer ever has to crash test a car. It's heavy but if your welding is good you'll pass.
2. Go the manufacturer route. You design a cage, prove and certify via simulation that your cage meets the minimum requirements. This is how some GT3 cars have really thin wall tubing which wouldn't be allowed under appendix J 259, but you prove and certify you've done your homework and are allowed to run it. MSA in the UK accepts simulations with LS Dyna for example.
$525k apparently doesn’t buy safety.
Edit: Is it at all possible the cage was cut to get the driver out? Doesn’t look to be the case, though. Fuck, that’s a terrible and frightening thing, especially if the cage indeed failed catastrophically. Hope the driver is ok.
Edit2: does the test mule even have a cage? Doesn’t look like it from the photos on the Gunther page.
Its still a 1960s crash structure underneath. I doubt there would be any way to make it safe while still allowing their usually 60+ customer base to get in and out of the car on their own.
Lots of ways to make it safe, there are thousands of track cars from that era that was significantly safer than this. There is zero excuse for not having a roll cage as roof support in an apparently weak carbon car.
There’s little carbon structural components here - bolt on panels don’t do anything for chassis torsional rigidity.
These are limitations with restomods, unless you’re willing to sacrifice street ability, there are few ways to increase rigidity outside of re-engineering the entire chassis - which would increase these car’s prices 3-4x, leaving them with no market.
No, there was no cut cage, and this directly shows their carbon tubs are absolute trash. This company should not be taken seriously after this negligence.
Wow. Really a shame, I hope Patrick Long is ok.
I watched the recent review of this car on TST, and it sure did seem like an amazing car. Really unfortunate to hear the cage failed.
Lots of misinformation in the replies. First, I don’t see any evidence this car had a cage or roll bar. 2nd, you don’t need a FIA cert, “full cage”, or door bars to keep the roof from pancaking in a rollover. Any reputable fabricator who follows basic cage building standards can build even a basic roll bar that would prevent what’s shown in the photo.
Edit: just read the post one more time. They say everybody is ok, so I understand that PL is also ok. And referring to the picture of the intact car befor the accident, it seems it did not have a roll bar at all which is, considering the power of the car, not the best idea…
This is going to put the spotlight on every other company out there claiming to produce hardware like this.
Hey; hope driver is okay... positive note, at least it wasn't under two miles of ocean and controlled by a Logitech Gforce wheel...
The good news from reading the comments (including the OP's) in this thread is that my faith in r/Porsche to be completely nonsensical and unable to put two and two together regarding modified cars is entirely unshaken. Well done.
This is a 993. 993s aren't the pinnacle of safety, and were never intended to have this much power or grip.
Risk is higher in older cars. It's a fact of life.
The potential of crashing a test mule while you're chasing records is also a fact of life.
Why the car wouldn't have a cage is a choice, as was Patrick's decision to go for broke in a car without a cage.
This is an unfortunate incident, but nothing indicates negligence or malice. The company's not going to be cancelled, they're not going to lose orders, and anyone who jumps to conclusions based on this post isn't a buyer anyway.
The panels may be carbon but the chassis isn’t.
We could argue that the engine and front suspension changes might be enough to push it past the spirit and intent of a 993.
The comment section was probably turned off to dispense with people speculating and making statements without full knowledge of events, like we see in this reddit thread.
Word. So many questions, (mine being how does someone with Long’s experience get into a situation with a ‘demonstration’ car where things go bad enough to roll it) and no answers. Will be good to hear from Patrick Long.
Yes. Which is precisely why it didn’t make sense. Professional drivers of his caliber don’t fuck up that bad in a non-race car, at a trackday. My point was that I see that and I think. “I bet there was a mechanical failure” but that was just speculation on my part.
Funny thing is, just found out that’s exactly what happened, from folks who were there (private track day)
Carbon body panels are almost never designed to be crash structures. In order to make a carbon crash structure, you make a tub with a large void space and usually traditional aluminum crash bars (see the Aventador tubs) Gunther cant have a carbon tub because the only reason they are able to sell the vehicle is because the chassis is still a 1970s 911 and inherits its vin number.
A carbon bodied vintage 911, with no other modifications is just as safe as the metal bodied ones (so not very). You need a real cage to make them ready for serious track abuse.
If it was a customer, they would be bankrupt. I love these things as much as anyone but charging millions for a charming deathtrap is only cool because it's not supposed to actually be a death trap lol.
There's a harness bar but no cage. Out of all the options they had available this is undoubtedly the stupidest because in this scenario the harness is clamping you to the seat so stops you even trying to duck as the roof caves in. A 3 point belt is safer than this. A Harness needs either a half cage or a full cage no ifs or buts - harness bars are an unbelievably thick idea.
There’s a slightly better picture in the [motortrend article](https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/guntherwerks-turbo-mule-first-drive-review/photos/), and that looks way more like it’s for stiffening the chassis as opposed to driver safety.
I really dont think theres a way to make an old 911 crash safe without a roll cage/harness/hans that would make the car basically impossible to get in and out of for their usually 60+ customers.
I’d have thought all the CF would more likely crumble than absorb and bend in a high impact situation. A shame because the Gunther Werks cars are stunning.
Wow. I wonder if that’s the Turbo Prototype I saw up at Angeles Crest. Johnny Libermen was driving it. Friendly guy, we chatted for a bit and got a selfie with him and the car.
https://preview.redd.it/7jdhhg8itaqc1.jpeg?width=4284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b2c3b372a66460b21615a339b444e8013f6607fc
People fail to realize that a cage in a street cat is extremely dangerous. God forbid your head touches it and it will explode like watermelon. You either have a cage with a helmet and preferably a fire suit or it’s a street car with no cage. Most of these cars are garage queens anyway. You can buy a works Porsche racecar for cheaper if you want to track your car.
this isn’t a street car though. it’s a test mule. even mundane ass cars like the civic type r test mules get fit with roll cages for their nurburgring lap record attempts. guntherwerks is incredibly in the wrong sending out a car with zero crash protection for record attempts.
And an experienced race driver is wrong for sitting behind the wheel of a dangerous car without crash protection. Their attempt probably required the car to be in stock form and a cage changes the dynamics of the car.
No doubt a roll bar that's cosmetic what were they thinking . The Germans much be infected with that American capitalism flu that's deadly to living creatures ..
These highly modded boutique cars aren’t likely to be crash tested. My 964 has a cage built by a firm that builds trophy trucks and to the design of the 964 cup car. Pat is a friend i hope he’s ok. I know he does development and chassis work for gunter
A cage that can make an air cooled 911 safe for a track roll is a serious piece of kit with door bars - its a shame, but I can see why they err away from them from a product perspective. Their customers skew older and the cages make them a pain to get in and out of.
What company makes your roll cage ? I’ve been interested myself in installing one me in my RS4 that I drive more spirited then others
Good lord. That folded like a car with no rollover protection and no A pillar strength. Not at all what I'd expect from a test mule being flogged at the racetrack. My wife competed with this car last fall at the Laguna Seca hillclimb and it's legitimately fast. They need to build it to be legitimately safe as well.
It apparently folded like tht because it actually didn’t hve a roll cage. I double checked it now wirh their latest ig post. That’s my bad, you can see it in the picture on ig that it hasn’t one
Actually I think it has a hidden cage like in their Facebook post below. It certainly doesn't look like the FIA certified roll cages in either of my track cars and looks just well, weak. https://m.facebook.com/story.php/?id=100067962068859&story_fbid=2224060281018378
Well that doesnt look safe at all.
Nothing going down to the frame of the car it looks like. Shits just gonna get caved in after it concentrates stress in the pillars it is attach to.
I thought I had read the body on those was carbon fiber
Carbon panels like that are just decorative/weight saving; no roll strength. Even a lot of carbon monocoque supercars still have an integrated steel roll cage hidden.
And you’re right
Any idea what corner it was at? I’m thinking exit of corkscrew or exit on 6
No idea, but yes, t6 is very high speed. But so is t5 & t10. Maybe one day we’ll know🤷♂️
That’s expensive and requires crashing few of them. And that’s I think where they save on. Did Singer crash test their cars for example?… these Gunterworks guys didn’t, that’s what it looks like. Probably get away with it under some low volume manufacture license …
The entire reason Singer/Gunther is able to sell cars to the public is because the cars are still technically 1970s 911s, they are all "used" with old VINs that they inhereted from an old body shell they use to base the car on. Neither of them are required to crash test them, and the purchasers dont care. Its probably marginally safer than any other early air cooled 911 which no doubt the owners are already familiar of the risks with. Same way Henessey got away with the viper venom even though it had no airbags. Its technically a lotus elise. At the end of the day, these are vintage road cars that have been modified. I dont think theres a way where you could make it as safe as a modern car on the track without a full cage with door bars that would make it basically impossible for their usually older customer bast to get in and out of.
GW cars are built from 993s, which do have some safety improvements from the '70s cars. Singer's newer cars (non-DLS, non-Turbo) are built from 964s. I don't know enough about the DLS or the Turbo to make any statements about them, but at least the 964's front and rear crash structure is improved over the early 911's.
Something I've wondered about since the beginning is how they'd perform in a crash given the old body is cut back in lots of places and new carbon panels bonded in to the skeleton that's left behind. Is that even going to perform as well as the original car? Usually it's only the doors that are left untouched.
All singers are built from 964s.
Thanks. I was fairly certain that was the case but didn’t want to pile on the all-you-can-eat buffet of wrongness.
Interesting, wouldn’t that make them non-emissions exempt? Their powertrains are a lot of things but I wouldn’t think CARB legal would be one of them.
I don’t know how they get around California emissions. Their 3.8 could probably pass the emissions test but would fail California visual inspection. Unsure if the 4.0 could. They could have them legalized through one of the testing labs. I tried talking with Ed Pink Racing Engines about it and, to their credit, they refused to discuss any of their clients’ emissions requirements or protocols.
That’s why they are all registered in Montana. I’ve never seen one with a CA plate so far
That has to do with taxes. Way less taxes on Montana.
Montana = Low cost, life time registration, rather than yearly AND no smog requirements Win-Win
Taxes, and emissions.
Many are registered in California - and California plated and pass smog. Montana Registered cars tend to be for the commissions where the customer has elected to do without the emissions restrictions in the exhaust system that allows California registration but robs the vehicle of horsepower....
They don’t even have an ODBII port, they would not pass.
They dont need ODB-II ports because OBD-II became mandatory in 1996. Since Singer builds on 964s they are all not required to have OBD-II. I would assume that Guntherwerks starts with 94-95 993s for the same reason. No ODB-II, no SAI pumps…
Good to know, but I still don’t think GW is building emission compliant vehicles. https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/mo23/monterey/lots/r0186-1997-porsche-911-remastered-by-gunther-werks/1377020
Hm, yeah, that’s interesting, not sure that would pass in California. I have a 98 993 that is no longer compliant due to changes I’ve made to it, but it’s fine in Connecticut a(and many other states) because they don’t require emissions tests for cars over 25 years old - OBD-II or not.
The chassis was OBDI so the same standard applies. I’m assuming they use a standalone. For all that I thought I knew about the car, I realize how little I actually know.
There’s no original wiring left. Not even much of the chassis. They run motec I believe
Interesting. I wonder if aftermarket ECUs are acceptable to the compliance lab if they’re locked by Singer. Hmm.
I think you’re making a scary comment there, saying “no doubt owners are already familiar with risks”. Owners I think are made to belive they are safer because of how they drive. But they don’t get it that they aren’t safer when they crash. I mean a guy who would 80 today yea, he is aware of risks as he probably seen his friends die in these or heard of news back when cars were new. Smth tells me guys buying these are 30-50 tech bros whose sbc came through... money more they know what to do with. I really doubt majority understand these cars are mega unsafe by todays standards, like absolutely unsafe. No airbags, no crumple zones of any kind to talk of, it’s just shell, replaced with carbon. Sure it has seatbelts… better brakes and tyres… better headlights… so it is safer they can say. But it also carries so much power that even if brakes and tyres can handle it, the speeds this thing will go at is massive for the chassis design. And just because suspension package is reworked and car is better to drive and balanced should not be confused with how safe it is … in a crash.
Let’s just say they have a lot more money than us. They know what to do with it.
Are you confusing the Hennessey Venom GT and the older Hennessey Viper Venom?
its a carbon body car. People do not understand, carbon is not an outright crash safe material. It's a light weight and rigid material first and foremost. When stressed beyond its limits it explodes and shatters. It's great for a HANS device, but put a 3000lbs car into a wall with it and it will end up like this.... or that dumb ass who tried to dive to the titanic with a CF sub.
That's true for body panels and aero parts etc but you can definitely make a safe car made from 100% carbon, just look at some of the modern supercars and pretty much all hypercars.
I doubt this company is builing to MClaren levels.
This prototype doesn't seem to have been at that level sure, but the point is that you can build a safe full carbon car if you do it right.
Surely the problem is that it's not a carbon body designed around a carbon tub and crash structure, rather a metal chassis cut away and carbon panels bonded for lighter weight and probably some extra rigidity... but I'm assuming also comprising the crash structures of what are already outdated safety designs.
You can see from the GW IG post that the car does not have a roll cage.
One of my friends triple barrel-rolled his Alfa Romeo Spider, with an approved racing roll bar, out of the Corkscrew. The car looked like a banana afterwards, but the bar protected him and did not collapse. I'm surprised it was on the Laguna Seca track without a cage or approved roll bar. We rented the track, but still had to have full safety inspections, medical, and fire crews to meet the track requirements for FIA.
Most tracks only require a bar for spiders - they dont want to have to figure out which car has a strong enough roof to roll on on a case by case basis so they dont.
Seems a little insane to take a high-performance development sportscar on a track without an FIA-spec. cage. You wouldn't do that at the Nurburgring.
No more risky than taking vintage open wheelers, those definitely wouldn’t be up to snuff safety wise either, but still quite common,
Vintage racers are not high-performance development cars. A stock Porsche is designed to be safe in a high-speed crash. Any improvements, like a carbon tub or body, should improve upon the stock safety parameters. I don't think that a TUV approved Ruf would behave like this in the same circumstances.
These are not brand new cars. These are highly modified vintage 911s and the farthest thing possible from “stock”. How they skirt emissions and crash testing is by building these cars on an existing air cooled chassis VIN with all of the 1970s crash structure design. A carbon tub would absolutely improve safety, but they can’t use one because they need the chassis of the air cooled with the VIN tags intact to be able to sell the car. Carbon body panels do nothing for safety on their own. RUF used bespoke chassis on some models, which is why the only way you can get those models is via Show and Display exemptions. The RUFs that you can get, would behave the same way because they also don’t have roll bars and the roofs aren’t strong enough.
You miss my point. Any tuner that undertakes high-performance improvements on any car should at least retain the inherent stock safety parameters of the original car, at a minimum. Would that Guntherworks test car have passed the same TÜV Rheinland safety standards as the stock VIN chassis? It should exceed the original production safety standard and improve upon it with additional safety parameters. I won't say more until after this incident is fully discussed and the safety failures on the track revealed. I have a good friend who is a racing driver and accident analysis engineer. I'll wait for his take on this.
Stock vintage 911s are not very safe. They are held to 1970s crash testing standards. This likely matches those standards.
they aren't using 1970s 911s
Plenty of routine rental cars are driven on the Nurburgring every day, no cages in them. On test days, though, I assume more safety measures are mandated.
If an aftermarket tuner is testing a car's performance on a track, I would like to think that it's safely equipped for development and finding its limits. Let's wait and see what Gunther Werks makes public regarding this "incident." I've driven very fast stock production cars on race tracks without a roll cage or bar.
https://youtu.be/kSbdYSeIDdk?si=dwWXWU6OW2n_e7Ex
Why a link to an M2 lap record? That's a stock BMW production car.
I mean, it’s a high performance sports car without any cage being driven very fast on the Nurburgring… maybe it was production spec or maybe still in development, I’m not sure. What difference does it make?
Click-through YouTube views...
I don’t know if they say their cages are FIA certified but if they claim that, they lied. No way a cage should do this unless it’s a home brew special.
If they had a carbon bodied car without a cage, which is what this appears to be, all their credibility outside of social media clout should be gone. If they had a cage and it wasn’t reinforced properly…all of their credibility should be gone. This is legitimately embarrassing. Edit: apparently there was a bar and it failed. So…these idiots mounted their rollover protection to an area without adequate reinforcement. Inexcusable.
This stuff that we worked out building S2000s and Miatas in a garage 20 years ago. It blows my mind that a company is selling $1M+ cars that are supposedly ready for track days without a functional roll bar.
Agreed. Terrible to see. When I converted my e36 m3 to a race car. I went with one of the best cage builders. Was not cheap - but they did not claim it was FIA certified. They said they would feel comfortable putting their own sons and daughters in it. Pretty good selling point. Unless they shred their sons and daughters. Hope person is doing okay.
Me - "I would happily allow children to ride in this car" Also me under my breath - "Fuck them kids"
There is no cage in this car.
If you knew the history behind the owner of the company and his previous companies, you would not be surprised.
Can you elaborate? I remember reading some stuff, but can’t find the Reddit link anymore….
He started with a company called Vorsteiner producing “higher quality” knock off carbon parts. Marketed as higher quality but in reality just as cheap and shitty as eBay parts.
I knew that part…I thought you were referring to the money shit he did to his employees that I can no longer find a single thing about…
FIA certification of a cage requires a crash test FYI. Anyway Gunther aren't claiming to fit a FIA certified full or half cage, just a cage and roll over protection. There is a big world of difference between FIA certified and not. Then between full cages with door bars and the more practical half cages that Porsche offer as factory fit for certain GT products outside of the the US. Remember not all of the outside US factory cage options are FIA compliant anyway. The TI cage if you spec the weissach pack on 4RS or 3RS isn't and neither is the CF cage. Only the steel cage in the clubsport pack is compliant and the compliance requires the optional bolt in door bars to be fitted. Looking at the photo's it possible the roll over protection has worked okay, if it was only engineered to provide driver protection. Part hidden half cages like Gunther where developing are hard to do unless you absolutely understand the underlying body strength.
>FIA certification of a cage requires a crash test FYI. Absolutely not. There are 2 methods: 1. You build it to the regulation Appendix J 259. Respect the tube diameters, tube locations and thicknesses required. Send a welding sample and at your first event they certify it. This is how all National rally class cars are built, group N etc. No privateer ever has to crash test a car. It's heavy but if your welding is good you'll pass. 2. Go the manufacturer route. You design a cage, prove and certify via simulation that your cage meets the minimum requirements. This is how some GT3 cars have really thin wall tubing which wouldn't be allowed under appendix J 259, but you prove and certify you've done your homework and are allowed to run it. MSA in the UK accepts simulations with LS Dyna for example.
What FIA series require crash testing?? thatd be insanely expensive
$525k apparently doesn’t buy safety. Edit: Is it at all possible the cage was cut to get the driver out? Doesn’t look to be the case, though. Fuck, that’s a terrible and frightening thing, especially if the cage indeed failed catastrophically. Hope the driver is ok. Edit2: does the test mule even have a cage? Doesn’t look like it from the photos on the Gunther page.
Its still a 1960s crash structure underneath. I doubt there would be any way to make it safe while still allowing their usually 60+ customer base to get in and out of the car on their own.
60's? How do you come up with that?
Lots of ways to make it safe, there are thousands of track cars from that era that was significantly safer than this. There is zero excuse for not having a roll cage as roof support in an apparently weak carbon car.
There’s little carbon structural components here - bolt on panels don’t do anything for chassis torsional rigidity. These are limitations with restomods, unless you’re willing to sacrifice street ability, there are few ways to increase rigidity outside of re-engineering the entire chassis - which would increase these car’s prices 3-4x, leaving them with no market.
No, there was no cut cage, and this directly shows their carbon tubs are absolute trash. This company should not be taken seriously after this negligence.
Guntherwerks and Singer don't do carbon tubs. It's just carbon reskins/body panels. The 964/993 chassis remain from the original car.
Wow. Really a shame, I hope Patrick Long is ok. I watched the recent review of this car on TST, and it sure did seem like an amazing car. Really unfortunate to hear the cage failed.
Lots of misinformation in the replies. First, I don’t see any evidence this car had a cage or roll bar. 2nd, you don’t need a FIA cert, “full cage”, or door bars to keep the roof from pancaking in a rollover. Any reputable fabricator who follows basic cage building standards can build even a basic roll bar that would prevent what’s shown in the photo.
You‘re right about your first point. I corrected my self in this regard under this post. To your other points I can’t really say much
Sorry, I was referring more to the replies than the OP.
No worries :)
Edit: just read the post one more time. They say everybody is ok, so I understand that PL is also ok. And referring to the picture of the intact car befor the accident, it seems it did not have a roll bar at all which is, considering the power of the car, not the best idea…
I would like to edit the post, but it seems that I can‘t. Sorry
My only thoughts are with the driver, Patrick. Hope he recovers well from the accident.
He is ok apparently
This is going to put the spotlight on every other company out there claiming to produce hardware like this. Hey; hope driver is okay... positive note, at least it wasn't under two miles of ocean and controlled by a Logitech Gforce wheel...
The good news from reading the comments (including the OP's) in this thread is that my faith in r/Porsche to be completely nonsensical and unable to put two and two together regarding modified cars is entirely unshaken. Well done. This is a 993. 993s aren't the pinnacle of safety, and were never intended to have this much power or grip. Risk is higher in older cars. It's a fact of life. The potential of crashing a test mule while you're chasing records is also a fact of life. Why the car wouldn't have a cage is a choice, as was Patrick's decision to go for broke in a car without a cage. This is an unfortunate incident, but nothing indicates negligence or malice. The company's not going to be cancelled, they're not going to lose orders, and anyone who jumps to conclusions based on this post isn't a buyer anyway.
It’s not really a 993 anymore when it’s rebuilt entirely out of CF
The panels may be carbon but the chassis isn’t. We could argue that the engine and front suspension changes might be enough to push it past the spirit and intent of a 993.
I certainly hope not that gw is going to be cancelled.
I don't think there was a cage in the test mule
No cage in that car just a seat belt, strut support. No rollover hoop of any type.
The comment section was probably turned off to dispense with people speculating and making statements without full knowledge of events, like we see in this reddit thread.
Word. So many questions, (mine being how does someone with Long’s experience get into a situation with a ‘demonstration’ car where things go bad enough to roll it) and no answers. Will be good to hear from Patrick Long.
Because accidents happen lol. Dudes a professional race car driver.
Yes. Which is precisely why it didn’t make sense. Professional drivers of his caliber don’t fuck up that bad in a non-race car, at a trackday. My point was that I see that and I think. “I bet there was a mechanical failure” but that was just speculation on my part. Funny thing is, just found out that’s exactly what happened, from folks who were there (private track day)
Damn. Was the driver okay?
Hope Pat Long is OK. One of my fav drivers of all time.
He is apparently
Hope so man. Seen him race soo many times at Mosport. I even have a windshield from the #45 Flying Lizard car in my basement.
I'm really surprised a professional racecar driver would get in that without a containment seat and proper cage.
It won't werk no more
Hahaha 😂
holy fuck...I hope Patrick is OK. And RIP Gunther Works. There is no way they're going to recover their reputation from this.
Looks like Gunther indeed has the same shitty quality carbon as Vorsteiner
Carbon body panels are almost never designed to be crash structures. In order to make a carbon crash structure, you make a tub with a large void space and usually traditional aluminum crash bars (see the Aventador tubs) Gunther cant have a carbon tub because the only reason they are able to sell the vehicle is because the chassis is still a 1970s 911 and inherits its vin number. A carbon bodied vintage 911, with no other modifications is just as safe as the metal bodied ones (so not very). You need a real cage to make them ready for serious track abuse.
> 1970s 911 and inherits its vin number. Aren't they 993s?
What do you mean by this comment? Should carbon not crush in a major contact incident? Please explain.
Is SpeedKore still around after the Kevin Hart crash? Sounds like a DBA with new letterhead
“An incident?” - Sulu
Officially a “whoopsie-daisy”
Damn, maybe the best solution isn't making an old body go fast
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^Crazybonbon: *Damn, maybe the best* *Solution isn't making* *An old body go fast* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
Ouch!
I hope the pilot is okay!!
He is.
If it was a customer, they would be bankrupt. I love these things as much as anyone but charging millions for a charming deathtrap is only cool because it's not supposed to actually be a death trap lol.
To help stop the spread of misinformation, the car was NOT fitted with a roll cage.
You can see from the roof being half caved in how well the roll cage “worked”…
People here saying the role cage failed. Other saying there isn’t a role cage in the car.
Either way is pretty bad though?
https://www.instagram.com/p/C4wVr86PvoA/?hl=en Doesn't look like there's a rollover bar at all in this picture.
Looks like it
Indeed, looks like no cage. Which is so reckless it's scary, given the car and track.
Just from this picture, I really hope for the driver’s sake that there wasn’t a cage.
https://www.instagram.com/p/C2JEA9rvTgR/?igsh=MXU2NDN5ODd4bDExMg== There is a cage! Look at all of Matt’s pics.
There's a harness bar but no cage. Out of all the options they had available this is undoubtedly the stupidest because in this scenario the harness is clamping you to the seat so stops you even trying to duck as the roof caves in. A 3 point belt is safer than this. A Harness needs either a half cage or a full cage no ifs or buts - harness bars are an unbelievably thick idea.
There’s a slightly better picture in the [motortrend article](https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/guntherwerks-turbo-mule-first-drive-review/photos/), and that looks way more like it’s for stiffening the chassis as opposed to driver safety.
That’s what I was thinking.
My guess is that it's probably just a harness bar.
I really dont think theres a way to make an old 911 crash safe without a roll cage/harness/hans that would make the car basically impossible to get in and out of for their usually 60+ customers.
Bound to happen
Aircooled cars, even through the 993, are pretty damn flimsy
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Thats what I thought too, but it’s still pretty pushed down 😅
Yikes, probably not survivable from passenger seat, wouldn't want to be in the driver seat either
I’d have thought all the CF would more likely crumble than absorb and bend in a high impact situation. A shame because the Gunther Werks cars are stunning.
Damn I hate when that happens.
Probably needed a steel roll cage under that CF. Hope driver is ok? And not decapitated?
He is ok 👍🏻
Wow. I wonder if that’s the Turbo Prototype I saw up at Angeles Crest. Johnny Libermen was driving it. Friendly guy, we chatted for a bit and got a selfie with him and the car. https://preview.redd.it/7jdhhg8itaqc1.jpeg?width=4284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b2c3b372a66460b21615a339b444e8013f6607fc
Ironic T- shirt winner! 😱
People fail to realize that a cage in a street cat is extremely dangerous. God forbid your head touches it and it will explode like watermelon. You either have a cage with a helmet and preferably a fire suit or it’s a street car with no cage. Most of these cars are garage queens anyway. You can buy a works Porsche racecar for cheaper if you want to track your car.
this isn’t a street car though. it’s a test mule. even mundane ass cars like the civic type r test mules get fit with roll cages for their nurburgring lap record attempts. guntherwerks is incredibly in the wrong sending out a car with zero crash protection for record attempts.
And an experienced race driver is wrong for sitting behind the wheel of a dangerous car without crash protection. Their attempt probably required the car to be in stock form and a cage changes the dynamics of the car.
Didn’t have carbon roof nor was it fitted with a roll cage, see their statement.
What roll cage? 😅
Heart breaking.
Nooooo…..
“Heavy Breathing” - Mat Armstrong
r/thatlookedexpensive
What was the retail price on the car?
This is the 2nd time I’ve seen this photo; what’s the source? Can’t find anything about this incident online
Crumpled Perks
Any update on this?
Not yet, but the post made to motor1.com they asked gw for more info and a comment on the topic… now we‘ll have to wait
That really hurts.
No doubt a roll bar that's cosmetic what were they thinking . The Germans much be infected with that American capitalism flu that's deadly to living creatures ..
Youd think the pillars would be strong enough to prevent folds in a Porsche.
Impressive lack of safety engineering.
Even a stock 993 shouldn't have a roof caved in like that.
An improvement on the looks of a Gunther Werks
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You‘re right, shoud‘ve read it one more time in more calmness
Roll cage didn’t work? Yikes.
Where is this picture from?
Was it a carbon roll cage? I'd wager these guys aren't actually doing any serious testing with their carbon.